129: Nikko Kennedy - Living in Rhythm: Circadian Health at Every Stage of Life - The Quantum Biology Collective Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Meredith Oke (05:00):
Hi, Nico Kennedy. Welcome back to the QVC podcast.

Nikko Kennedy (05:05):
Thank you, Meredith. It's great to be here.

It's so nice to have you again. And for those of
you who are newer, I highly recommend going back
and finding my other interviews with Nico. But
because for this one we're going to cover some
more experiential territory. But before we get
into that, I do want to just do a little overview

(05:28):
of your focus area in terms of the research and
the work that you do and your substack. Brighter
Days, Darker Nights. Everyone should be
subscribing. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, sure. I am really interested in, like,
health from the very beginning of life and
helping to optimize. And so it's kind of like a,
all of this circadian and quantum health, the,
the newborn period and to, you know, my
background is as a doula and so supporting mother

(06:07):
baby bonding, supporting the childbirth
experience, supporting postpartum experiences,
understanding infant development. I, when I got
into circadian health, eventually I realized it
was like a big light bulb moment. Whoa. There's a
lot going on here. Our circadian rhythms are
first programmed in early life and that can kind

(06:29):
of carry through for the rest of life. And then
it has expanded out because I'm very curious. And
so where I was really focused just on mamas and
babies, I've also learned like at puberty, at
menopause, in old age, there are also just stages
of life where our circadian health is very
different based on what our biology is like
trying to optimize for in those phases of life.

(06:50):
So I kind of am like, developmental circadian
biology.

We're gonna have to talk about that.

Absolutely. It's super cute because you always
hear like, oh, babies are just like little
grandma and Grandp when they're born with their
wrinkly little faces. And turns out, like,
grandma and grandpa don't really produce much
pineal melatonin. Little babies also don't
produce much pineal melatonin. And so in some
ways their circadian needs are very similar in
terms of really being attuned to light and social

(07:19):
cues. Unless the darkness and need for darkness
isn't as great in those stages because for the
old people, their pineal glands are often
calcified, so they're not going to produce pineal
melatonin. It is still important. There are, you
know, like I said, like, we could do a whole
podcast on that. Today we're getting together to
more talk about like day to day realities and all

(07:41):
of that. But yeah, fascinating stuff. And if You.
For those who are listening that are interested
and want to jump into that, like, my substack is
huge. There's. I'm getting close to like 300
posts in the archive there of just like all of
this nerdy stuff. I always have tons of citations
in my work.

Eco stuff for those listening who haven't been,
is like very, very deeply researched. So if you
hear her mention anything on here and you're
like, wait, what? I want to know more. Like,
there is more. She has definitely written on it.
So I just want to cover this a little bit. So
there's the newborn phase, puberty, menopause.

Yeah, Old age.

Our circadian rhythm rhythms change during each
of those periods. How so?

Yeah, yeah, they're different based on what's
happening with our hormones. So, you know,
newborn babies, the first six weeks of life, they
don't really produce much melatonin at all. They
get it from mom's breast milk. And then they do
start producing melatonin, producing more and
more. And melatonin climbs all the way through
childhood. Puberty happens at the point where

(08:55):
melatonin starts to fall. And then melatonin
declines across, across the lifespan, basically.
And then we see like, menopause tends to hit at a
particular phase when melatonin reaches a low
threshold. So you always hear about like, you
know, the, the female sex hormones is that it's

(09:15):
when those fizzle out. But actually melatonin is
also a sex hormone. Um, so you also see melatonin
falling and really amazing clinical trials with
melatonin supplementation at that stage, which,
you know, there's a lot you can do to boost your
endogenous melatonin as well. So we kind of
extrapolate from the research back and forth

(09:36):
because it's, you know, the research field is
kind of still catching up with the understandings
that we have in the world of quantum biology
where we're oftentimes like cross piecing
interdisciplinary research. So I think we'll see
a lot more with that going on. And then dementia
and arsenality hits when melatonin basically

(10:00):
becomes like negligible. Which is why I say like
the old folks are again, kind of like the newborn
babies. So it's like this graph where it like
goes up and then at puberty is the peak, where it
then like declines. So this whole full slope. And
then there are other things that happen with
cortisol and sex hormones and all of that kind of
thing. Women, women have like a monthly ride that

(10:21):
they go on where sleep is often more disturbed in
the Luteal phase. So yeah, there's all kinds of
things with circadian health. But the really, you
know, cool thing about all of the complexity is
it always boils down to like, the prescription is
always the same, which is to retune your
environment back to nature. Nature is the gold
standard. Nature takes care of everyone's

(10:45):
circadian health at the same time. So that's,
that's where it's, you know, nice and holistic.
And all of this is fascinating and can help
understand like, oh, why does grandpa always wake
up at 4 in the morning? Like why is my baby also
always up at 4 in the morning? And those kinds of
things. So it can explain differences in
behavior, but the prescription is always like the

(11:07):
environment and needs to support strong and
stable circadian rhythms.

Okay, so, because that was my next question. So
it's like the practical application is the same.
It's just supporting us at different stages.

Right.

We really need our adolescent children to be away
from that blue light or blocking that blue light
at night because this is the time in their life
where they're supposed to, supposed to be
producing it. Melatonin in abundance.

Yes, absolutely. Yep. It's really important.
Melatonin is a hormone. Melatonin is an
antioxidant. Like melatonin does so many things
for the body's health. So yeah, absolutely. We
really want those puberty years and childhood
years. Yeah, ideally. And you know, really all
the times, and that's what's so nice, is that

(11:58):
it's never too late to start. Except for in the
sense of behaviorally, it's much easier. I work
with families in my one to one work or
practitioners who are supporting families are
like the main people that I work with. And so
moms always report like, I wish I would have had
this sooner. Because it's a lot harder to onboard

(12:19):
a teenager to circadian lifestyle choices
compared with the moms who get this earlier on.
It is easier to raise someone up within it and
then they can. Like my children for example. Like
I was blessed to start playing around with this
when I was pregnant with my first child almost 13

(12:42):
years ago. So she's now approaching the teen
years and she can look out and be like, wow, the
kids you have video games. I feel sorry for them.
And you know, so there are things where in some
ways like people get more and more set in their
habits. So like the, the coaching aspect of it is

(13:05):
more difficult in later stages if you haven't
like started it early on. But our circadian
health is always flexible. Like there's you can
find so many studies for that dementia, senility
issue, even for the people who are, like, way at
the end of life and finding benefit for them

(13:28):
getting into circadian strengthening practices.
So, yeah, I love working in this field because
it's so effective and, you know, we can
oftentimes, within like, two days, start to
really feel a difference. I. I talk with. I was
just talking with a woman recently, too, that has

(13:51):
children that are teenagers that are. This is
actually a pretty common story where the parents
have divorced, and so one home is circadian and
the other home isn't.

Right.

And so then she's like, every time they come
home, it's a whole reset.

Yeah.

And. Or, like, you know, sleepovers or whatever.
And, like, you know, could I get them to, like,
bring blue blockers over there? Would that be
weird? Would.

Yeah, she's like, six months away from being
like, pack your blue blockers, put them on. I
don't care.

Yeah, exactly. We. Yeah, we do notice. And so,
yeah, all of. All of the, you know, you know,
moms are especially on it. Sometimes it's the
dads, though. Sometimes it's the dads that are
totally, like, the circadian health champion. And
I think that the dads usually take a little bit
more of a proactive approach with the older
children, whereas the moms, I think, still

(14:47):
sometimes are, like, giving older children more
autonomy at that stage of life. Just kind of like
a general trend that's obviously not true for all
families. But in the earlier stages, it's often
the moms who are, like, you know, very much like,
packing the bags to go to the park and all that
kind of thing. So, yeah, teamwork. Teamwork.
Circadian community.

Yeah. And just. Yeah, just having people with
even, like, a slight familiarity with it, you
know, and it's. Things are really changing. Okay,
so. Okay, so it's. Adolescence is super important
now when we're talking about menopause and old
age, when our melatonin decreases. Are you, you

(15:29):
know, is it your view that there is a place for
exogenous supplementation during those. Those
times of life? Or should we do. Or is it more
like doubling down on in our darkness?

Yeah, that's a great. Yeah, great. Great
question. And so that's where I teach, I guess,
six, five or six sources of melatonin that we
have access to. So for me, I'm always working
with the endogenous. I am, you know, like, as a

(16:03):
doula, which is, you know, a form of being a
health coach. I'm not prescriptive So I always
recommend people to work with a practitioner if
they're going to supplement with melatonin,
because for one, melatonin supplements on the
market have been proven to be like wildly
inaccurate in terms of like what the stated dose

(16:25):
on the bottle is versus what actually it is. And
also to have a lot of contaminants and things. So
I'm like, you really should work with a
practitioner who's familiar with melatonin and is
confident in their source of melatonin and can
work with the melatonin in addition to any other
treatments he may be having. And there are some

(16:46):
acute situations where we absolutely. I would
never like a mom with preeclampsia, a mom who's
having her labor augmented with pitocin, a baby
who's in the NICU and can't breastfeed. Like
these are three that I encounter pretty often
where like in those cases we absolutely. For that

(17:09):
acute situation, it's probably worth working with
someone who can get that supplemental melatonin
for a long term thing like menopause lasts many
years. In that case, I'm a lot more likely to
want to lean harder on the body's own ability to
make melatonin. And so that's several ways. Like

(17:30):
there is the pineal melatonin you were mentioning
that comes out in the darkness, but we also have
the mitochondrial melatonin which comes out any
time of day, especially when mitochondria are
really happy and healthy and getting infrared
light signals. So yeah, I talk with people about
like optimizing their thermostat is like one of
the really low hanging fruit to like let your

(17:53):
days be warmer.

As much time outside as possible, even in the
shade, even when it's cloudy, because that
infrared light is getting us. Yeah, the daytime
kind of melatonin.

Exactly.

At night, because then we're getting. Releasing
the nighttime melatonin.

Right.

And then so lowering the temperature, is that
what you're saying?

Lowering the temperature at night and having a
warmer daytime. So even for people that are
living inside, it's like your daytime thermostat.
A lot of people keep it low for energy
efficiency, but like really like 72 to 76 degrees
Fahrenheit is where like optimal human
productivity hits. And most of us are, you know,
you see people doing red light therapies and all

(18:34):
kinds of things because we're all kind of heat
deprived for various reasons. And then the
nighttime sometimes might require like a air
conditioner or something, which also is less
energy efficient. That's one of the areas that we
bump into a lot when it comes to like building
design is that we are constantly trying to

(18:54):
optimize for energy efficiency, for cost savings
and pollution and all of these things that we're
concerned about. But creating a static, thermal,
highly efficient light is kind of like making us
these weird moon. Think of it as like being like
moon beings. It's kind of like just being under
like the full moon and it's like kind of cold and

(19:16):
kind of white light and kind of everyone's just
like kind of like weird and not really sure if
they're like super alert in a way.

I forget his name. He's like going to like live
forever. He look, he's literally like translucent
glow. He looks like a moon. Totally a moon guy. I
see what you mean.

Yeah, yeah.

So, okay, so we want to be away from that. So, so
it's summer, we have, we have the AC on, but in
the daytime we want to keep it up around 74 and
then we go to bed. We want to put it down lower.
We want to be mindful that there's a fluctuation
in temperature between the day and the night.
With the night being warmer, the night being

(20:00):
cold, the day being warmer. Okay.

Yeah, exactly. So that's just another form of.

Supports our melatonin.

Yep. And that's to support our melatonin. Yeah.
And so we know like, you know, women, one of the
side effects of menopause can be like the hot
flashes. And it can, you know, they can be more
sensitive to those thermal changes. And when it
comes with like. Yeah, I mean we just have so
much advice, same thing. You know, like I go, I
tend to default back because most of my work is
with mamas and babies. And so, you know, they

(20:32):
always tell baby like you have to have like a 70
degree room for your baby to sleep in with no
blankets and whatever. And meanwhile like for all
of history we were co sleeping and like the
temperature regulation would happen on with mom
and the temperature outside would actually be
rising and falling. And so the temperature rhythm
is usually the first to emerge in a newborn baby.
So at first they're like round the clock. And

(20:53):
then the first thing that happens is their body
starts being cooler in the night and warmer in
the day. And that's just like a really
fundamental circadian health pattern. And I like
to bring it up because across all stages of life
that thermal pattern is just a really important
piece. And if we are spending time outside, we
naturally get it. But when we're spending so much

(21:15):
of our time indoors, we don't always get that.
So, yeah, you can see, like, I'm out here in my
gazebo and it's lovely springtime weather. And
you've also seen me out here bundled up in my,
you know, sweatshirts and hoodies with a wool
blanket on my lap. Different crazy things that
I'm doing to keep myself, like, more enmeshed in

(21:37):
nature and, you know, have done huge amount of
work in my life to. From, like, living, you know,
me, my husband, our one child living in, you
know, a little apartment in the city. And it's
great because we can walk to the park and we can
walk to the grocery and, like, everything is,
like, you know, really set up and nice and tight

(21:59):
and convenient. And then eventually, you know,
like, I was having a lot of immune system
dysregulation at that time. Really, really bad
seasonal allergies, really, really bad skin
reactions, and resetting my circadian rhythms was
what. Actually, I didn't even notice right away

(22:22):
because I was doing it kind of like more on a
whim, but putting, like, the red light filter on
my computer and different things like that. It
was like, wow, that was a really mild allergy
year. That's great. And then the next year rolled
by, like, wow, another just, like, allergies.
Like, do I even have them anymore?

Right?

And it wasn't. I was like, I wasn't like, I'm
going to use circadian health to cure my allergic
contact dermatitis and seasonal allergies. But,
like, you know, two and three years down the
road, I look back and like, wow, I haven't had a
flare since I got my, you know, light
environment, right? And it took a long time to,
like, get out here where I'm living now, where

(23:04):
there's woods, there's space for the kids,
they're no longer in school, we're homeschooling.
And I. I've been entirely remote since 2014. And
so sometimes people are like, oh, you're so
lucky. I could never. And it's like, well, if you
would have asked me in 2013, I might have said
the same thing. But, like, by making. By setting

(23:28):
my intention and working really, really hard,
making certain sacrifices, like, over the years,
like, we gradually improve and get closer and
closer to our ideal lifestyle where we're raising
our kids. We have plenty of time to spend with
them. They have plenty of connection with nature.
And all of these things that, you know, I just

(23:49):
know in my being are so important because I felt
the difference between being sick all the time,
basically, or, like, you know, A significant
amount of the year versus, you know, actually
being able to enjoy springtime blossoms and not
see that as a time of year of, like, dread of
like, suffering. Yeah, yeah.

And that's such a good point too, that. Yeah.
This is like a gradual, lifelong practice.

Yeah.

So there are certain things we could, you know,
if we're able to implement them right away, like,
amazing. But then what I find oftentimes is once
you implement some of the key basic things, you
start to notice, you know, you make decisions
that you could be making differently that you
wouldn't even have thought of before you've done
the other thing. So just like, allowing it to

(24:43):
unfold over time.

Mm.

And allowing your lifestyle to adjust to the
practice and the practice to adjust to you. And
there's no, like, one way to do it. There are
basic things we all need to do. Artificial light
at night, getting outside during the day. But how
we do that is really, you know, can be very

(25:09):
individualized and can change and improve over
time.

Yeah, yeah. And is very, very determined by the
environment you're in. Because, like, when I was,
you know, living over a busy intersection, it was
like blackout curtains all the way at night.
Right. And now I, like, have skylights and I'm
like, watching the moon and being up in the
middle of the night. And like this, you know,

(25:37):
like, alternating, like, somewhat polyphasic
sleep thing. That was one of the other topics
that sometimes people don't realize. Like, when
you get really deep into it, you start uncovering
all these things about biology that we just
didn't know about, like being able to enjoy the
light of the full moon rather than feeling as a

(25:59):
time of dread. And again, that's something that,
like, when I had a really, really strict
schedule, there's no way that I could have felt
okay about being awake for a couple of hours to
enjoy the moonlight and, you know, some time with
my spouse while the kids are all quiet and slee
sleeping. You know, that would have been really
stressful. I mean, I remember when it was
stressful because I knew my alarm was going off

(26:20):
at 4:45 in the morning or, you know, sometimes
even earlier. Right. And so, like, when you know
that your alarm's coming at a particular time and
you're awake in the middle of the night, like,
that's so stressful. But when you're totally in
tune. And again, this is more for, like, I live
in a temperate climate, so like, my sleep tends

(26:40):
to shift more. Whereas people who live like,
closer to the equator, like, the light is a lot
more Consistent around the year. And so we don't
have those long dark nights of winter where we're
going to be awake.

That there's. That it's somewhat normal to have
periods of wakefulness in the middle of the night
during certain times of the month.

During certain times of the month.

The moon based on.

In the season and the seasons. Yeah. So basically
whenever nighttime darkness passes 14 hours. So I
get a lot of people who live, you know, like I
live at 40 something degrees and higher, you
know, 40, 50, 60 degrees latitude, then we get
that where a significant amount of the year we

(27:29):
have this 14 hours of darkness. And this was
discovered by the same lab that eventually put
out the idea of using seasonal, of using like the
SAD lamps for seasonal affective disorder is
they're like, oh, light controls sleep timing.
And so if there's more than 14 hours of this
really dim environment, people will naturally
shift into a polyphasic sleep pattern which is

(27:53):
actually just like what the animals. And like
there was a really amazing study that just came
out this year that's one of the most
comprehensive sleep studies that's ever been done
on people living in non industrial societies
versus industrial. And so it's really interesting
that we have this idea of 8 hours of sleep as
being the norm and like beneficial. And these old

(28:13):
sleep researchers and what they see happening in
societies that don't live this, you know, modern
technological way is that that's not actually a
human normal, that's the, it's an artifact of 16
hours of artificial light. So that was a total
like mind blowing moment for me as a mom because

(28:37):
I have worked with so many moms who are like
trying to care for their babies around the clock,
but they're like, I was in bed for 10 hours,
like, why do I feel so tired still? It's like
they're getting woken up over and over. And so if
you just allow yourself more time in bed and a
more gentle. So oftentimes it's more like six

(28:58):
hours of sleep with a 20 minute to two hour nap
at a different time of day. So if it's like if
you have 16 hours of darkness in the winter, you
might sleep for four hours, wake up for like two,
two hours, go to sleep for another four hours and
then get up. So that middle of the night waking
is really stressful for people because they're

(29:18):
like, my circadian health was so good, why am I
not sleeping eight hours? Well, because your
environment, circadian health is so good.
Exactly. And then it's especially back to your.

Ancestral way of sleeping.

Yep, exactly. So yeah, usually like one like four
to six hour block that overlaps. The natural
darkness is like a stable necessity across all of
human time.

Okay. And then so yeah, it's not like you need
eight. So eight hours in a row is not the gold
standard. The gold standard is four to six in a
row while it's dark outside.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And then the other part as
needed. Yep, exactly. And the nap kind of shifts
like we all know about like the siesta. Right.
And so like in the summertime you have this
endless long day. And so it can like in the above
the Arctic Circle, traditionally it was like four
hours of sleep about midnight, four hours of
sleep around noon, like a totally biphasic sleep

(30:17):
pattern. And then like, you know, areas that have
the siesta, it's a little bit more temperate of a
climate. So it's like you have your main sleep
and then you have a shorter sleep in the heat,
you know, through the heat of the day and the
shade and then like going on and you don't even
ness in that second sleep. Depending on the time
of year, sometimes you're just like closing your

(30:38):
eyes for 20 minutes and it's just kind of like a
gentle drift and then you just drift back in and
you go. It's not always like a full, full blown
nap. Right. But that just having more flexibility
with that, like it doesn't really fit with like a
schedule of a 9 to 5. And you were talking about
puberty and like when I was growing up, I went to
public school and lived in a remote area where

(30:59):
the bus ride was over an hour. So it was like
catching the bus at 6:20 in the morning. And so
it was like alarms at 5 through my puberty years.
And those were the only years that I ever had
insomnia. And I'm like, you know, looking back
and like all of the stress and like thinking
about the lighting that we had and the sports and
like working out like right before bed and all of
these things that, right. I was doing like trying

(31:21):
to be healthy, trying to be good, trying to like
have a straight A student doing the
extracurriculars and you know, like immediately
waking on, flipping on those bright lights and
you know, being up at those times. And it's just
so stressful to the circadian rhythm. And a lot
of people just think of the circadian rhythm as
being like, I do the same thing every day. So

(31:44):
that's one of the other things that I'm always
like, sleep is an effect of the circadian rhythm.
It doesn't cause the circadian rhythm. It's. And
keeping the same exact schedule day to day
doesn't necessarily mean that you have, you could
have a stable circadian rhythm, but it doesn't
necessarily mean that it's a strong circadian
rhythm. So kind of making those differentiations.
And obviously I've gone really far in order to

(32:06):
allow myself and my family a very, very flexible
circadian environment that like, like I said, if
you would have asked me in like 2013, like this
would not have been possible. Like my, like I
said, my alarm was set for 4, 24, 30 in the
morning because I was working east coast from PA
that I could wake up before my daughter, daughter
get my work done, take, you know, my lunch break

(32:29):
would be getting her around, getting her up for
breakfast and all of that. Right. And like just
my life was very different then. So I completely
understand for the people who are like, no way, I
could never do that. Like, you know, there's no
way that I could be that flexible. There's no way
that I can nap. Same thing. Like moms who have
two toddlers, it's really difficult for them to
nap my life because of not putting my older kids

(32:52):
in school. They're like a whole pack, right? So
if there's a 13 year old around and my husband
can also work from home when he does have events,
they're, you know, we deal with that. But they're
usually evening because he's a musician, which is
another one. Like musicians get such a bad rap in
the world. You know, people who are circadian
savvy are always like, oh, musicians have the
worst circadian rhythm because they're always out

(33:14):
at night. And so like the things that we've done
to, to figure out that like if he has a night
gig, we're gonna make priority. Like my husband's
gonna have a nap in the afternoon to prepare for
the sleep disruption he's gonna get at night. And
then like figuring out the commute times of
everything so that he does get a period of sleep.
It overlaps the darkness. Even if he is, you

(33:35):
know, playing until two in the morning. Right. So
he has the nap before.

This is like a really important point because we,
you know, we're used to doing this level of
planning around eating, right? It's like going on
a trip or taking our children. We need to, we
account for the meal times. We account, okay,
well how we're going to feed and be like, okay,
well we can do like do a restaurant or some fast
food, but no more than, you know, we did a day of

(34:04):
that. Like, we have to get somewhere we can cook
and, you know, like, we think about. And it's not
a big deal that, of course, you plan around food.
And what I hear that your family has done is to
do that same thing with light and circadian
rhythm and to take it. Take that into account and
make it just as an important A factor.

Right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Keeping the
environment there, keeping the schedule there.
Yeah. And like you said, food, like, that's a
really big, important cue. Yeah. For the
circadian rhythm. So regular meal times is really
important. I would maybe argue even more
important than the regular sleep times. Just the

(34:49):
way the digestive system works. Yeah. So having
that.

So having. Having breakfast within what, like a
certain period of time upon waking and.

Yeah, before.

Okay, so tell us what your optimal would be.

Yeah, again, it's. There's flexibility, but,
like, optimal flexibility in all things. Yeah.
Getting that savory, like, shifting to a savory
breakfast. And something I always talk about,
too, is, like, that I do find that there is a
significant component of heat and warm food

(35:25):
because a lot of people like to have a cold
breakfast because it's convenient. And I totally
understand. And so sometimes we will do like a
first breakfast, second breakfast kind of thing
just based on the way the day needs to flow. But
as a rule, I really like to get at least one
solid warm meal in the morning for getting the

(35:47):
full, like, you know, belly weight and like, just
the warmth of nourishment. So this is a lot of my
work in exploring polyphasic circadian is through
work that was actually done by the Navy. And so I
think we talked a little bit about this before,

(36:09):
but the Navy has an incredible amount of control
over their sailors, and so they've been able to
do some incredible research. They also had some
horrible tragedies based on sailors being really
sleep deprived. And so they had really strong
need to figure out circadian health because the
ship has to operate around the clock.

Right. So that's where research that came out. I
forget sometime in the past five to 10 years that
shows sleep deprivation was, like, at the state,
you might as well be drunk.

Yep, exactly.

If you're driving or operating something
important like a ship.

Yes, exactly. So I always think about this, too,
in terms of, like, our ERs.

Yeah, yeah.

Sure.

If you get him on hours, 16 of his shift.

Yeah, exactly.

Basically had nine margaritas.

Yeah, so.

Okay, maybe not exactly, but.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's where I
learned about the it's really important to have,
like, they want to get their sailors to have
their at least one of those solid sleepover
windows overlapping the natural darkness. That's
where I found that from. And have tested and
experimented with it and found that, yes, that is

(37:27):
really true. You know, some people will say,
like, an hour of sleep before midnight is worth
more than two hours afterwards. Or, like,
different little, like, aphorisms you might have
heard around this idea. Because lots of people,
like, it's just the thing about circadian health
is, like, it's so obvious. So, like, at first
it's really counterintuitive. And you're like,
okay, I'm gonna try this. We're like, okay,
we've, like, went outside, we watched sunrise,

(37:49):
and we turned off all the lights. Like, what's
this like? And we're, like, sitting there by
candlelight and like, oh, this is really dark,
but it's kind of atmospheric. And pretty soon,
like, the kids are, like, all drowsy and sleepy
and, like, ready to sing a song and go to sleep.
And then eventually, like, you know, everyone
gets on board, and then you start pouring into
others. Like, a moment when a lot of families

(38:12):
reach out and they're super proud. They're like,
hey, I feel so cool. I just got red light tape
and put it over my refrigerators and my fans and
my VC or, you know, whatever appliances, and it's
like a milestone moment.

Crossed the Rubicon when you put red tape over
the light in your fridge. I was FaceTiming with
someone recently, and.

I was walking around.

It was a friend. It was so. It was casual. And I
opened the fridge while we were talking, and she
was like, what is that? Oh, the red electrical
tape over the light. She's like, you really take
this seriously, don't you? I'm like, yeah, I
really do.

Yes. And once you feel it, like, you just
understand it, and it's so visceral, like, for
people who are, you know, health coaches or
practitioners listening to this, like, it's
really cool because the, like, adoption rate and
people actually sticking through with this is,

(39:15):
like, so high compared with, like, I don't know,
like, exercise or diet. You know what I mean?

The circadian rhythm. Habit changes.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly. You know, that's. I mean, my
experience is all anecdotal. I haven't tracked
it, but it. That seems. That feels very true.
It's like, once people experience what it's like
to go to sleep and wake up in a circadian
optimized, like, there is no going back because
it's so. It is relatively easy compared to
anything else. And yeah, it's just like, oh,

(39:49):
yeah, I could feel like this in the morning.

Wake up without the sandman, without a headache,
really, because, yeah, I remember when I thought
it was just normal, like, oh, morning suck.

Yeah, same for years. And then, like, I forced
myself out of it because I'm like, I don't want
my children to grow up thinking that mommy is
terrible in the morning and that mornings are
terrible. Like, that's not. That's not a legacy
I'd like to leave. So I forced myself out of it.

Yeah.

But it wasn't until the circadian rhythm stuff
that I was like, oh, I just naturally happy in
the morning. Now I'm not talking. I don't want to
super engage with anyone the first 30 to 40
minutes, but I'm not grumpy.

Yeah, it's a big difference.

A big difference.

Yeah. So I love that too. That was during the. I
haven't done very much school with my kids
because it's never been something that just
worked out. But my oldest, I did try school
several times, and that was one of the big
hurdles for me is that she was not happy with

(41:01):
getting woken up at the same time every day. And
it just felt so right.

You mean sending her to school versus homeschool?

Yeah, exactly. Like, with homeschool, I can match
her activities and responsibilities with her
energy level that day. And when it was school, it
was like, if it's Math day, it's Math Day, and it

(41:29):
happens at this time.

My son has AP chemistry at. At 7:50am and I'm
like, you know, sorry about that.

Yeah, exactly. And I remember what that was like.
And when I was in the, like, flow of it, it was
like a challenge. I was like, okay. You know,
like, every day just felt like a race. And it was
like, okay. And I was working hard and, you know,
I was satisfied. It was. It was fine for that
time. But it's not like, once I became a mom and
saw like, the challenge, and I'm talking about,
like, kindergarten. Right. This is when I was

(42:05):
going through this and being like, oh, it is. You
know, it is 7am and we have to get to school by
8:30, I really better wake her up. And she really
doesn't want to. And she really doesn't want to
eat breakfast because I just woke her up and I
didn't, you know, I hadn't, like, taken her out
to the sun yet. It was like, straight from, like,
bedroom, bathroom, kitchen table for breakfast.

(42:26):
And like, have seen and talked with so many
parents too, where they're like, how do you get
your kids to eat breakfast? They're just like,
you know, so groggy. So, you know, and it's just
amazing, like when you get into a little, you
know, for me, I am doing this very flexible thing

(42:48):
with them. And so they, you know, generally are
pretty excited about whatever thing they're going
to do because it's just like in time. And so it's
more like we, you know, math time still comes
around. It's not like it doesn't, but it's not
like I'm like, yep, every, you know, Every

(43:09):
Tuesday at 8:45am she's going to be totally fed
and happy and ready to digest some new math
skills.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, for lots of people they'd be like,
no, that's way too impractical. I can't handle
that, you know, level of upheaval and everything.
And I, you know, totally understand that. So I do
tailor, we talk or how do we say, sometimes like
titrate, titrate the information. Right. So I'm
not like telling people who are just getting into
this who like are, you know, maybe they're just

(43:40):
going to dim their evening lights and that's
going to help them all sleep a little bit better
and have a better time with that 7am breakfast,
out to school and work and everything. And that's
fine. Like, it's not like you have to go all the
way into it. You can, you know, use light. Like
we were talking about the seasonal affective
disorder and using the light. So like, you know,
we can use artificial light and the artificial

(44:05):
thermostat. It's not like I don't use heat in my
house to be like totally primal with nature.
Right. We still like our creature comforts and so
finding the right balance and that's like, you
know, just kind of like step by step trying out
different things and feeling how all the pieces
fit together and you know, the different seasons
of life and all of that works. And then one of

(44:30):
the other things that I was hoping we'd have a
chance to talk about today is like, how do we as
circadian savvy people then choose to work on the
computer?

Yes, yes, that's, that's a big one. And yeah,
let's talk about it. I also want to say, because
I can feel people worried about my son. He goes
outside when he wakes up, then he eats a nice
protein breakfast and then he has like a 20

(45:03):
minute walk to school.

Oh, perfect.

During rain we drive him. But so I'm like, is
your brain awake by the time you get there? He's
like, yeah, mostly we do. Yeah, you know, do you
know we do do our best because you have totally
changed your life and doing like homeschooling
and living in a rural area, which is amazing. And

(45:28):
I love hearing how you have done that and how you
plan your day and how you plan your life. And
then I, I'm more in like closer to the quote
unquote normal, normal type of thing. My kids are
in public school. We, you know, we moved after
we'd been steeped in this. So we were like

(45:49):
purposely chose a house that was outside of the
middle of town and close to a forest preserve so
we can have our outdoor time and. Or not near a
whole bunch of other neighbors and things. But
yeah, I mean as we were saying, we all make our,
make our choices and do our best. That being
said, we also work on our computers all day long.

Yeah. So it's like the double whammy of light,
light pollution, EMF and being sedentary are like
the really big circadian health challenges there.
So yeah, I've been doing it for a long time and
have had phases where it has been absolutely

(46:35):
terrible. Like I said, kind of like that
catalyzing moment where I like got the red screen
filter that would automatically start blocking
blue light at sunset on my screen. And that was a
huge game changing moment where I suddenly was

(46:59):
not feeling as motivated was how I first
perceived it. Because with these lights it gives
us a cortisol boost. And when you stay up past a
certain level your body like squeezes itself so
it gives you that adrenal adrenaline kind of
boost which is actually kind of addicting. So

(47:21):
when I first got my, actually when my husband
first installed the red light automatic filter on
my computer and I lost the motivation that I had
for like that end of work surge because like I
said like at that time like I was a new mom. I

(47:42):
was going to school full time online and had a
full time online job. So it was really actually
super disruptive. But it ended up being in a good
way. But like I said, it was like.

My life is set up where I have to be productive
on my computer at night. And now with these
optimized environments, my fatigue is real, I'm
tired, can't work.

Exactly. So I found that I had to drop to part
time school and like for people that know me,
they know that I do a good job at whatever I do
and so concur.

And.

I'm, I'm not trying to brag, I'm just like, I
have, like I have.

To do things hardwired to over deliver and that's
just how they are.

So. Yeah. And I had my baby before I had finished
my degree. And so this is something many people
may not know about me, but I actually dropped out
of college four times before I finished. And so
this was one of those times where I was like,
well, I'm gonna have to pull back from this for

(48:55):
now and put it off. Like, I really wanted to have
that finality and finish and move into the next
stage of my career. And it took me a lot longer
than I wanted to in terms of like those
sacrifices that I had to make to get where I am
now. So one of the, this is amazing.

Though because most of the time people at that
age, I don't know exactly how, how old you are at
this time, but probably in your twenties. Right
Though that is a time where most of us will
sacrifice everything health related for.

Yeah.

For those external factors, for career ambitions
and all of the things. I certainly did. I do
believe we're starting to pay the price. Earlier,
like I went into mitochondrial dysfunction in my
30s, so there you go. But I'm so interested in
the fact that you were. That you made the choice
to prioritize your health and well being.

And to.

Delay these goals, not let them go, just put them
on a timeline that was going to work for your
biology.

Exactly. Yeah. So I did eventually finish my
degree. So, you know, that was great. It just
took longer than I thought and I was able to do
it.

In a way that was that because you are, you are
hardworking, you are ambitious, you do like to
get things done and do them properly. How did you
get to the point where you're like, you know what
I am, I'm going to slow this down, I'm going to
slow my roll on this.

Yeah, well, part of it is like I said that, that
wanting to deliver. And so to me, and you know, I
have peers and colleagues and people I really
care about and they were totally fine. And what
was the saying back then, D's get degrees.

I, I know, I know it is. C's to get degrees. I
think D's is really okay, but okay.

Right.

They're like, whatever, you just do what.

You have to do. And that just couldn't sit. I
just, I just couldn't do that. So I had to, you
know, fully disengage and then reengage. When I
did have the energy for it. And that's something
that I've found, you know, also fits with kind of
maybe how I've ended up in this very extreme end

(51:14):
of like wintertime polyphasic. So sleep being
something that is like, good for me because I'm
like, if the moon's up and it's beautiful and
it's like crisp and frosty and the stars are
sparkly and my fire is crackling and my husband
also happens to be awake, like, we're gonna get
up and have some fun right now and like hang out
together. And like, all the kids are sleeping.

(51:36):
This is absolutely great. And if it means that
6am is gonna roll around and I'm still gonna
sleep, that fits with my energetic flow. And so I
think similarly with that, you know, decision at
that time to pull back from my college, keep the
work because I needed the work. But eventually I

(51:59):
did quit that job too. The east coast from
Pacific 1 and move into freelancing, where I was
able to control my schedule. Those things happen
pretty quickly. So I was like, okay, nighttime
night school's not working. That's when I'm
waking up at 4 in the morning and I can't give up
before in the morning. So I'm gonna quit the
night school for now, pick it up later. And then

(52:21):
I was like, okay, I definitely can figure out
this freelancing thing to have a job where I can
work on my own time. And so fairly quickly, like
the first month, I think, or the first year, I
remember like mapping it out. Like, the first
year, I earned like $5,000 less than I had the
year that I'd had that job. So it was kind of a

(52:42):
loss. But then the next year, I earned like twice
as much as I'd had with that job. So it was like
the short term loss was more than made up for in
the long term, like taking control of my schedule
and taking control of my work life. And that was
when I was like, you know, from then on I've been
like, fairly entrepreneurial, doing various

(53:04):
things online to figure out how to not have
someone saying that they want me to show up at
5:25am for a meeting, you know, so then once all
of that was like rolling and I felt like I had a
consistent freelancing business. Then at that
point, I went back to school part time. Right. So

(53:28):
it's just kind of like for me learning to tune
in, to follow my energetic flow and like, know
when I have energy to like, push. Like right now
I'm in my third trimester. Of pregnancy. I've
been through like my second trimester and I've
been so motivated. But like my first trimester,
it was like I had to rest during that phase. So

(53:49):
it's taken me a long time to like get comfortable
with that. Because of that, we tend to want to
just drive and drive and drive and drive and have
everything be predictable. And so I've learned
how to be a little bit more flexible, a lot more
flexible with my own ebb and flow and to trust
that I'll be able to catch up and have those
times where I'm going to surge and push and make
huge advances. And then other times where I'm

(54:10):
going to withdraw and I'm going to take things
slower and fill in, you know, my body's needs and
you know, maybe sleep until after 8 in the
morning, which for a mom with four kids I'd be
like, what? How can you do that?

Yeah, no, that's like sleeping till noon for a
non parent.

Yeah.

You know, I just really love how you are modeling
how to have a, you know, create a life that is in
alignment with, you know, the natural rhythms of
nature, of the seasons, of your body. And I'm
really thinking about, based on what you just
said, how many people, how often we feel like

(54:55):
there's something wrong or we're doing something
wrong if we're not able to stay in that hyper
productive.

Yeah.

Mode all the time. And we're not meant to, you
know. And so I love that you're modeling how to
be at peace with that. And it's like, you know,
yeah, sometimes we move forward and make quantum
leaps and other times it's like we just take care
of the basics. And I think that's an important,

(55:25):
you know, thing to remember in life. It's like,
you know, when I was growing up, it was always
like all of the media around getting your period.
Right. Like all of the ads, like take this or use
this and so that you don't have to slow down, you
don't have to change anything. You could stay
doing all the things you do all the rest of the

(55:47):
time, even when you have your period. And it
wasn't until later in life that I started to get
educated on the fact that like you're maybe
you're not supposed to be at that level all the
time. And there are times, you know.

Yeah.

That maybe, you know, maybe you're supposed to
chill out a little bit when you have your period
and not be doing gymnastics competitions or
whatever was happening.

Absolutely controversials. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. That absolutely, yeah, fits. Definitely.
Yeah. The natural ebb and flow of, of energy. So
in the beginning of the podcast we talked about
my work with families because that's really what
is, has been primary for the past few years since

(56:32):
I made the pivot. But in the background, which
used to be my primary is doing business and
marketing consultations and you know, my journey
from being employee, driving my health into the
ground, being matched with, you know, clients

(56:52):
that, you know, that other people were placing
for me and how all that didn't fit with my
energetic flow shifting over into freelancing and
doing business and marketing consultations, which
I did for almost 10 years and then kind of put it
down and now that's something I still do in the
background and that you and I have been
collaborating on together with the, you know,

(57:14):
coaching program that we're doing. And it has
been so clear to me that the financial freedom
piece is a huge part of what keeps people locked
into their current paradigm. Because the in our
world, like money is one of the ways that we can

(57:36):
feel secure and so anything that's going to
potentially interfere with our money making
potential is very scary. So like sleeping in,
missing work, not being able to complete an
assignment, those kinds of things are, can be

(57:56):
viscerally terrifying to people. And I think
that's one of the where building circadian
community is so important and also where like
there was a time when I was closing down my
business cases that I thought I was putting it
down forever. And then when I went into health
and wellness space and found how much business as

(58:22):
the paradigm is right now doesn't serve people's
health and wellness and that health and wellness
practitioners as a group often are also not able
to fully actualize their visions without certain
necessary business and in this day and age,

(58:44):
computer skills. So in that background I've kind
of started distilling what I've learned about
running a computer based business, circadian
style as a homeschooling mom, right. It's like a
very wild, unique juggle of things that I figured

(59:06):
out how to make work and having certain rules and
processes, right. Like I used to be like a
digital business consultant and you know,
efficiency and all of that kind of thing. And now
it's a lot more and I tend to call what I do
workflows with the flows being a really important
part of it because it's not about, it is very

(59:30):
process oriented but it's about understanding
where processes can flex across time and also how
to be really efficient and make sure that the
time spent Online is doing valuable work and work
that brings like, that intrinsic satisfaction
there and that it is all structured in a way that

(59:53):
gives that flexibility, flexibility and freedom
to be able to accommodate your energy when you're
ready to just surge and rail, and also to be able
to accommodate, when you do need to withdraw and
replenish and focus your energy in other
directions. So that workflows element, there is
something that is kind of coming around now, and

(01:00:16):
I appreciate all of the opportunities that I have
to help people with, you know, optimizing the
work elements there with, you know, the circadian
and life and all the other things that we do.

Meredith Oke (01:00:30):
Yes, because it does. It all fits together. And
if you have, yeah, the clarity of purpose, the
clarity of your goals and then melt, meeting that
with an optimized workflow, you can take care of
the basics in the downflow periods. And then when

(01:00:50):
that surge comes, it's so clear what to work on.
And you don't need to be in super surge every
day, every minute, because you get as much done
in those surge periods when you have clarity and
an optimized flow than you would just trying to
hammer through it every day. And, yeah, I think

(01:01:11):
that's been what is. What is so fun about, you
know, Nico and I are doing this coaching program,
expansion circle and yeah, helping supporting
people to get that clarity and then helping them
to really break it, break it down, to actually
doing it in a way that works with their life,

(01:01:31):
that works with their biology, because we take
all of that into account. I had never really
thought about it like that just now. We've been
doing it for a few months now. I'm like, yeah,
this is really cool.

Nikko Kennedy (01:01:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, So, I mean, for
people who are listening, they probably are like,
what, you guys are doing a business coaching
program? Like, I have no idea about this, but
yeah, we, like, you know, we've been working on
all this stuff at IAQB and qvc and one of the

(01:02:05):
recurring things that, you know, people tell us,
you know, a lot of people go through the
certification program and are just, you know, it
fits right in with their existing business and
they're ready to fly. And then there's also a
significant group who, you know, are having
trouble with managing the time or figuring out

(01:02:26):
how they're going to pivot based on this
information. And, you know, this group often
includes practitioners who are licensed and their
license dictates how they're able to practice. So
that can create a significant hurdle to
integrating circadian light base. You know,
prescribing grounding, or, you know, these

(01:02:47):
different things that they learned in our
program. Right. And so figuring out how to maybe
even build a whole new business or education
program around, like, the synthesis of their
knowledge in a way that is, you know, safe and
comfortable. And so, you know, those two groups
of, like, the people who are just getting started

(01:03:07):
all together and the people who are going through
a major pivot, that was kind of the target that
we had in mind of like, how do we help these
people to, you know, fully achieve their vision?
Because, you know, we're all inspired by knowing
that LIGHT has such a foundational and, you know,
such a huge impact on our well being and health.

(01:03:29):
How do we effectively teach this and how do we
not burn out while doing so effectively live it?
Yeah.

And that's the beautiful thing about having your
own business. Like, it is filled with challenges.
However, you know, it's everything that you've
been saying, it is your business, so you get to
structure it however you want.

Right. And a lot of times people are.

Like, oh, well, I have to be on zoom all day or I
have to make this, make things last this long.
And I'm like, why? Why do you have to do that?
Who told you that? Oh, well, that's just how it
is, I think. So does it work for you? Do you want
it to be like that? No. Okay, well, it's yours.

Yeah. It's your business.

You get to decide how it's structured.

Yeah. So you had a background as an executive
coach before LIGHT took over your world?

Before I applied all those skills to organizing
information in a very unique area. Yes. Correct.

Yeah. So would you share a little bit about what
that, how that is now coming in? Because I've
been sitting and watching you do just amazing
transformational work with people. And I
experienced it when I was going through the IAQB
certification. And then now watching you do it
with other people and like, it's obviously a
natural skill that you have, but also something

(01:05:00):
that you dedicated yourself to learning how to do
that. And so. Yeah. Could you share just a little
bit about how you've done this? Yeah.

Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's, it's coaching is
coaching. Right. So you're supporting people to
reach their goals. A lot of people in this
community, those, those are health and wellness
goals. And my background, it was career goals,
business goals. You know, I also personal, I did
stuff that would be more considered life
coaching. But it's, you know, it's really

(01:05:37):
difficult to see a greater vision for yourself
when you're in it. Like when you're in the weeds,
you know, we're talking about this. You and I had
a call with Melissa, who helped us see a greater
vision for what we're working on than we could
see ourselves. And so the coaching skills are
really about holding space for people to see a

(01:05:58):
bigger vision they can see for themselves, and
then helping them get there in a way that feels
good, that is satisfying and fun and profitable.
You know, there's a lot of shame and fear around
making a sale and earning money and getting paid.
That is, you know, in a. In the quantum field,

(01:06:20):
sending out the signal that you're not available
for any of that. And so to get that clarity, as
we talk about, like, clarity, being a magnet does
require some support. And that's, you know, what
I, What I give because I'm. I'm not in. I'm not
in it. I'm on the outside. But I have, you know,

(01:06:41):
like, an unconditional desire for everyone to be
successful. Like, I just really want everyone to
be successful. And if you're in my world, I will
do whatever I can to help you be successful.
That's just how I am.

Yes, I've definitely seen that.

And I believe that people who understand all of
the things that we've been talking about, you
know, your success really matters to the world.
It matters to you that you. So you can construct
a life that feels good and that pays you, but it
also, for everyone listening for you. Your
success isn't a selfish ambition. It's a selfless

(01:07:21):
ambition.

Yeah, it makes such a huge difference the way you
show up at work, like, you know, goes back to
your family and all of the people that you care
about that are not related to your work, too.
Like, for all of you, you know, like, I've made
so many of these transitions for my family and
based on their needs as well as mine. You know, I
haven't talked as much about that, but there's

(01:07:44):
definitely, you know, things where, you know,
moments where I had to step back and look out,
say, oh, this isn't working for, you know, this
child, or, oh, this isn't working for my husband.
So even though I'm, you know, think that this is
the right way, like, have to roll it back and
figure out a different alternative path. And so

(01:08:05):
that, yeah, all of the. The things that we do
with lifestyle, like dreamlining and. And all
that visioning work, it's been so fun doing it in
community with you that we. We did had our first
group come through Expansion Circle, where We got

(01:08:29):
to kind of like play with the ideas and the, the
collaboration and the energy and dynamic between
you, Meredith and me, Nico, and the backgrounds
each of us, you know, bring to these
conversations. And you know that we both have
this kind of like coaching, sometimes consulting
more often coaching. But, you know, we, we each

(01:08:50):
do have a lot of experience and have tried a lot
of things in business and lifestyle and home and
circadian health and all kinds of health and, and
also like extensive like trainings and things do.
Meredith, I know that you're constantly learning
and growing your skill sets, and I'm also

(01:09:11):
constantly learning and growing skill sets and it
was so awesome to, you know, the first group of
people we collected were similarly also always
like learning and growing and trying new things.
So to jump in and be able to have these kinds of
conversations about what is your ideal lifestyle,
what is your workflow? How do you want to feel
when you do open your computer for the first time

(01:09:33):
in the morning? How does that feel? What does
that look like? What have you done before that?
And same thing, like, when you close your
computer, how do you feel about that time that
you spent? How do you want to feel? Like, what
are the changes between, you know, your ideals
for those moments and the day to day realities
and like, how do we bring, you know, coherence to

(01:09:56):
the ideal lifestyle that we wish we could have
and the, you know, life that we woke up to when
we rolled out of bed this morning at whatever
time it was.

That's it. I love that. Yeah, that's it exactly.
Because at the end of the day, it's just the day
we have the day we're in right now, right this
minute. And I love goals. I have goals, but it's
a moment to moment and we're allowed to make

(01:10:31):
those moments be in a way that generally
speaking, make us feel good.

Yeah.

And pass that on to others.

Yeah, that was something I shared with too, or
you know, with the group when we were talking and
I was like, you know, those competitors out
there, those people who you think are doing evil
in the world, or those people who you think are
so far ahead of you that you could never be in
their shoes, but you kind of wish that you were a
little bit. They have the same hours today as you

(01:11:02):
do, the exact same hours in. So we have all kinds
of tools. Like there's, you know, workflow
optimization, there's delegation, there are
partnerships, there are tools, there are
softwares. Like, how do you, how do you choose
the right ones of all of like the different
things that at your disposal that are also at all

(01:11:24):
of your competitor or role model model, you know,
they also have them at your disposal. And so
obviously, like some people have more money or
some people have more experience or some people
have a, you know, different network or whatever.
But like the time in the day, that part is the
same for everyone.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so, yeah. So no matter where you're at, there
are, there are ways to structure things where the
momentum will, will be increased, the results
will be increased, the satisfaction be increased.
And you know, not to be harsh, but often what is
holding people back is they think it's all of
these limitations, but it's really not having

(01:12:10):
enough support to move out of your comfort zone
is often what it comes down to.

Right? Yep.

I'll leave it at that. Because it is like change.
I've been doing, looking at Martin Picard's work
lately and the idea like change is it taxes our
mitochondria like we need to have. So all of this
mitochondria optimization work that we've been
doing for our health, like, what is that

(01:12:40):
translating into? That's translating into energy
to live our lives. Like, what does that look
like? Anyway, I could go on, but I won't. So.
Okay, before we wrap, because I know, I know my
people and they're going to ask, they're going to
say at the beginning, Nico said there were six
ways to support your melatonin and you covered
four of them. So.

Okay, perfect.

Okay, I hear you all. We haven't even published
this yet, but I hear it, so I'm going to recap.
And you. Okay, so we have sunlight, darkness,
meal timing.

Yeah, sure. Meal timing. So meal timing. I
usually also include food because there are
certain foods that actually have melatonin in
them. So food based sources is kind of like
supplemental melatonin. So there's the food based
sources, there's the supplemental melatonin and
then there's this one. So is that. Are we only at

(01:13:43):
4? So maybe I should. Yeah.

So there's temperature.

Yep, temperature, temperature, darkness,
sunlight. And then there's the food, and then
there's the supplements, and then there's the
microbiome. Microbiome produces melatonin. So
when you're optimizing your microbiome health,
which is on your skin as well as permeating your

(01:14:09):
whole body, that also produces melatonin. And
then I guess there are actually more. But if you
are pregnant, your placenta also creates
melatonin that goes into circulation for mama and
baby. And then for babies, if they are
breastfeeding, I guess we're at 8. But breast

(01:14:30):
milk also contains melatonin.

So. Amazing. Okay, so in terms of. Yeah, so the
practical things, we want it. We want to eat in
the morning and stop eating before it gets dark.

And we want to be eating protein foods.
Tryptophan is the precursor to melatonin. Right.
And then you can look up lists of foods that have
melatonin and decide which of those might or
might not be appropriate for you there.

I love that suggestion.

Yeah.

What about movement and exercising?

Yeah, definitely. There are correlations there
too. You know, movement generates. He movement
stimulates. You know, anything that supports your
circadian health is going to support your. Your
melatonin production. Anything that supports
mitochondrial health is going to support
melatonin production. People always talk about
mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell and it
makes ATP. And it's like, that's a whole other

(01:15:28):
topic. And people could go into the podcast
archives to hear people who are dairy expert
talking about that. But yeah, mitochondria also
make melatonin. So anything that's helping your
mitochondria be more healthy is also going to
help with that. Another thing about melatonin is
that it's inhibited by fluoride. So there are

(01:15:53):
things that you can do and that would also
probably be a whole other can of worms to get
into. But, you know, for women who are pregnant,
I'm always like, at least for this time, consider
not getting any dental fluoride treatments and
swapping out your fluoride toothpaste products
and things, and being mindful of fluoride in your
water just for the fact that it's. Is in

(01:16:15):
pregnancy particularly, melatonin is so key to
placental development, and placental development
is so key to the pregnancy going well as a whole.
So for that time, I'm always like, I don't. I
don't really have many qualms about saying, like,
for this phase of life, like, everything you can
do to optimize melatonin is going to be

(01:16:37):
beneficial for you and your baby. And that
includes eliminating fluoride along with your
artificial lights at night, artificial white and
blue lights. So, yeah, but you're right. We
didn't quite get to the end of that, and we
actually discovered a couple more.

We're in the flow. It's all flexible. Yeah, there
are many things and we talked about a lot of
them, and if you want to go deeper on any of
them, go to Nico's substack. And I'm sure she has
articles on.

Every single one of these things. Totally. Yep.
You can go in. There's a little search bar at the
top, so that's kind of fun. You can plumb the
search bar and then I'm also like super there.
And for people who do upgrade to a paid
subscription, it opens up a DM channel. So then
you can just be like, hey, Nico, what do I need
to read? Where do I find this? And then I can
pull up the article for you. Yeah, and that's a

(01:17:33):
really good way. And it's like super affordable
way to get just like some little coaching and,
you know, access to so many research papers and
all that. So, yeah, would love to chat over
there. It's fun.

Perfect.

Yeah.

So that's it. If you would like. Yeah. So if you
want to follow up on any of the health related
stuff we talk about, go to Nico Substack. I
recommend being, you know, paying for the
membership. It's a great group in there and Nico,
as you've heard, is very knowledgeable and we
didn't quite cover this, but Nico's like, like a
research maven. She's director of research at the

(01:18:11):
Institute of Applied Quantum Biology. She's
really good at it. She can help you find pretty
much whatever you need. She probably has it in
her. Her bibliographies. Yeah. And then if you
want the business coaching we were talking about,
that's at expansioncircle IO or you can go to
qpcpod.com and click on the little. The coaching

(01:18:33):
thing in there.

Yeah.

And Nico and I are both in there bringing our
expertise to support new paradigm professionals
in any capacity. So it doesn't really matter what
you do if you align with all the stuff we've been
talking about. We'd love to have you in there.

Yes, definitely. It's been so much fun and I love
chatting about all of this stuff and we've
created a very nice, comfortable space to come in
and talk and also do real transformative work.

Yeah, no, it's really cool. I'm so impressed and
proud of all of the people who've come through so
far. They've made such amazing progress. Nico, I
feel like we could talk for another two hours.

Yeah. But.

I do have a time limit from my podcast producer
on how long this podcast can be before he starts
making more money.

Yeah. Gotta optimize all the ins and all the outs.

Yeah.

So, yep, we can get together again another day.

Yes, we will do that. Yes, we will do this. You
know, stay tuned. Meredith and Nico's chats will
continue.

Yep. Thanks so much. It's always a pleasure to
talk with you and go through these things. And I
love that our listeners got to hear this little
more, you know, intimate version of what our day
to day lives look like. And you know, what we've
been working on, you know, publicly and somewhat
privately. So that was a great, great
conversation. I'm excited to share it around too.

(01:20:10):
So thank you.

Thank you, Nico. See you all soon.

Bye.

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129: Nikko Kennedy - Living in Rhythm: Circadian Health at Every Stage of Life

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}129: Nikko Kennedy - Living in Rhythm: Circadian Health at Every Stage of Life