130: From Pharma to Photobiomodulation: Sarah Turner’s Journey Into Light-Based Healing

Episode Transcript
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Meredith Oke (05:00):
Sarah Turner, welcome back to the QVC podcast.
It's a pleasure to see you again. I'm excited to
dive into neuroscience with you.

Sarah Turner (05:13):
Thank you. It's always a pleasure to chat to you
and be on your show.

Super fun. So for those of us who just joined us,
we are doing this live with an, with an audience.
Members of the QVC Pro community are here
listening to my interview with Sarah and then
they will all be invited to do a Q and A. So this
is a slightly different format than usual. So,
Sarah, let's start off. You've been on the

(05:39):
podcast before and we did kind of a deep dive
into your background. So I really recommend
people go listen to that episode. It was really
good, but I would like to go over it again just a
little bit. Your background in neuroscience, your
training in red light therapy, your deep dive
into Parkinson's research, how did it all happen?

(06:01):
And how did you end up in this weird area of
health instead of working for a pharmaceutical
company?

Well, funny enough, I did start out at the
pharmaceutical company. So my, my background is I
was a scientific researcher at pharmaceutical
companies for, for the first 10 years of my
career. And I spent six years with
GlaxoSmithKline, one of the biggest, well,
biggest worldwide, but certainly the biggest in
the uk. And I was looking at researching not

(06:35):
actually drugs, but more drug delivery devices.
So I was involved in asthma delivery and more
specifically, I was on a task force. You know, if
there's issues that came up, a task force was
sent in to resolve the issue quickly. And one of
the main issues that they were looking at at some
point was why do these asthma. The new. They had

(06:57):
new asthma inhaler devices. Why were they not
working as they were expected? Because they knew
the drug was good, but for some reason, when they
put it out in these, they were like a spherical
plastic inhaler, a bit of a change from their
usual ones. And what we found very rapidly was
it's because the plastic causes a static charge.
And so if the, if the artificial lung, because

(07:20):
that's what we were testing, we don't test in
humans in these labs, you know, everything's
tested, you know, in a kind of a simulation. But
if that wasn't grounded because these plastic
devices actually made a static charge, then you
got a different deposition of the drug in the
lung. And so I did a lot of experiments where I
was grounded, where I was not grounded, where I

(07:41):
wore like rubber welly boots, where I wore like
special. An outfit that had silver in it. So that
we knew I was grounded. I attached myself to,
like the bed. Oh, it's the fairies. That's like a
fairy chime. But what I found was it makes a big

(08:02):
difference whether actually you're grounded on
not whether where the drug will deposit in the
lung. And to me, this was kind of a bit of a
revelation because it was nothing to do with
actually the inhaler or the drug delivery. It was
purely the state of where you're delivering that
drug. Right. In that case, it was into the. We
call them stacks, into the kind of simulation of
a lung. But in reality, the implication is that

(08:25):
if the person isn't grounded or hasn't touched
the ground, that the drug is going to. The drug
is to deposit in a different place in the body.
And so really the solution for the problem is
just to make sure everybody is grounded before
they start taking these drugs, because
potentially you would need less drugs or maybe
even no drug at all if that was kind of the

(08:46):
problem with the lung function in the first
place. So that is really fascinating why I left.
One of many reasons. But I think that was
probably like the straw that broke the camel's
back from why I left the pharmaceuticals. Because
really, the solution is not necessarily
necessarily then in the pharmaceutical. It's
really in the environment of the person. And

(09:08):
that's something that is so easy to modify. You
know, something as simple as standing out on the
ground for 10 minutes could have sold that
solution of this. This strange drug deposition in
the lung.

Isn't that incredible? And it's so interesting to
me how, you know, living as we all exist in the
quantum field, you never know what, where. What
thread is going to lead us to that next insight.
So you were trying to figure out why the drug
delivery system didn't work, and you ended up
uncovering the science of grounding and how

(09:43):
important it is to humans, which is a completely
different paradigm than what the pharmaceutical
company was operating in.

It's a completely different paradigm. And
actually, with credit to Glaxo, they did actually
start to initiate some very interesting studies
into all kinds of like bipolar drug deposition in
the lung, different kinds of plastics, different
kinds of effects. I mean, ultimately they're just
looking for a plastic that doesn't cause the
effects. You know, they're not ultimately looking

(10:09):
for solutions for people to dissipate the effect
in themselves. You know, which is. Which is
really what is available to everybody. I mean,
they are still a business. But it was a very
interesting insight for me about how charge in
the body specifically can have a very dramatic
effect. And you know, we were talking about

(10:30):
inhaled products, but you can apply that to
anything that's inhaled. You know, we're inhaling
fine particles and things in our environments all
the time. You know, whether that's for the good
or for the bad. The way that our bodies respond
to our environment very much depends on the
charge in our bodies. So, you know, in order to
maximize the efficacy of all the systems in the

(10:52):
body, something very simple like grounding and
kind of. We know this now. There's been a lot of
books written about earthing and grounding, but
this is a very real demonstration of that. So,
yes, that was very interesting for me. And then I
left the pharmaceutical industry and I actually
pursued nutritional medicine because for me, that
was the next step. It's like, okay, how can we
best prepare the body? We can do grounding, but

(11:12):
maybe we can also change ourselves from the
inside with nutrition. But actually, that didn't
go far enough because for a lot of times, you
know, your mindset is. Your mind state is so
intrinsically linked that you can change your
nutrition and not have an effect. So I went on to
study clinical neuroscience, and that was really
where I started to learn more about the brain and

(11:34):
brain function and then start to look at ways to
modify brain function. You know, my focus changed
from that point. I moved to the States. I got
involved in the whole biohacking movement. I did
Jack Cruz Cruise. I studied various people. I
went and interviewed May Wan Ho. So. So that was
the point really, I suppose, about 15 years ago

(11:56):
when I moved to the States, that I got mostly
involved in looking very seriously at the brain
and brain function and ways that we could modify
that with an alternative medicine slant.

Right. And what were some of the insights that
you had that were different from traditional
neuroscience?

Yes, well, of course, I think probably your group
probably knows this very well, but most
traditional courses is in biology and
neuroscience are not teaching biophysics, you
know, so. So at this point, I had three science
degrees because I had already got a biology
science degree. I went and got my nutritional
medicine degree, and then I had a clinical

(12:37):
neuroscience master's degree. At no point did
anybody ever mention how biology interacts with
light, how potentially water changes its
structure when you have an interaction with
light. Nobody was really talking a lot, even
about circadian biology. So we was. I was still
much taught the kind of lock and key, kind of

(12:59):
more biochemical view of the brain, even with all
of that education. So it wasn't really. Until I
really started getting into the work of, like I
say, Dr. May Wan Ho, Dr. Jack Cruz, you know, all
of the people who went then and all of the people
who went before, because obviously there was lots
of people talking about light, for example, a
long time before then. But they were, they were

(13:21):
the ones who really got me to understand it in a
scientific way. So yes, it was, it's a total
turnaround from any of my academic training. I
can just say from my academic training. At least
now I have the background to understand how the
brain works, that I can apply these new
learnings. Because really they were all new
learnings. All of the quantum biology piece was
new learnings for sure. Right.

And I'm, I'm so interested in that because I
think it's actually a really, really good
combination to have a very strong foundation in
the traditional model. So that way when you layer
on the biophysics piece, the quantum piece, you
can fill in the missing pieces, of which there

(14:04):
are many. But you can also speak to people who
are still living and working out of the old
paradigm and be a bridge. The flip side of that
is that, and this goes for so many people in this
community, I don't want to say out on your own,
right, but you're charting a new path. Like we're
all sort of contributing to the creation of an

(14:26):
alternative to what is currently the mainstream
structure. So what did that look like for you?
How did you find your way? How did you find your
people? How did you support yourself?

Well, actually when I came to the States, I came
with a company. I was looking at some very way
out there science focusing on consciousness
interface devices.

Love it. What's that about?

Very, very interesting because there was some
research that was carried out at Stanford
actually where they were looking at the ability
to influence seemingly random events with the
power of the mind. So you know, the experiments,
the original experiments they called the pet. It
was actually Princeton, not Stanford. The
original experiments were called the PEAR studies

(15:15):
where they were using like a, a wall with
different color ping pong balls and looking to
see whether even though it should be a random
distribution, could you maybe focus on one color
and therefore somehow your own focused intention
was influencing the result. And other people have
done interesting experiments. William Tiller also

(15:36):
did some interesting experiments looking at
whether you could potentially affect the ph of a
liquid. All kinds of very interesting things. Can
you influence, you know, I know that there are
now different devices which have different random
colors. Can you predict the next color that comes
from a. In effect, it's like a random event
generator, Random event generator or pseudo

(15:57):
random event generator that's inside Some kind of
technology that mainly is what people use
nowadays rather than these kind of big like ping
pong balls on a wall. But it's the same concept
and it was a very interesting time because there
were, there are a lot of people looking at this.
It seems quite wacky and woo woo. But actually
when you meet the people who are doing the

(16:17):
research, they are, they're not at all. They're
actually very serious scientifically minded
people. It's just, you know, our measuring
mechanisms, you know, we, we don't have a good
way for kind of measuring what that could be. And
I think it comes down to either the science that
we're using to measure is wrong, which is the,

(16:38):
you know, that could be the case, or you know,
we're looking at a different kind of effect, you
know, maybe some kind of strange effect where,
you know, there's something going on with the
observation. But it's, it was a difficult place
to be for a long time because like you say,
there's so much resistance. And so, you know,

(16:58):
you're kind of labeled as fringe at best and kind
of wacky woo woo at worst. So you kind of have to
take that on the chin. And actually as I started
to move through that process and really kind of
get an understanding of it, I got introduced to
the concept of structured water by interviewing

(17:18):
Professor Jerry Pollock, who of course wrote the
book Fourth Phase Water. And this is something
that I could really get into because although
it's kind of still on the fringe if you think
about people talking about ordered water,
particularly in the brain, but it is something
where you can actually measure the effect. And
photobiomodulation has long history of research

(17:42):
and it works, you know, and it was through doing
that and looking at structured water and then
applying it to the brain, I got involved on some
like, as you mentioned before, Parkinson's
trials, I could see a real tangible, measurable
effect. So I made the jump to that because
although I still love that kind of woo woo world,
it's a difficult place to kind of base yourself
permanently because we, perhaps we're not using

(18:03):
the right science to record those observations.
But photobiomodulation straddles both worlds
because we can go into the whole esoteric side of
light science, which is fascinating, but we can
also get very real, tangible clinical effects
that we can use right now to kind of provide

(18:25):
evidence and to make this mainstream. So really
that's why I'm kind of in my happy spot right now
in between this kind of really exciting esoteric
and fringe world of Light therapy, but also in a
very firm, hard, scientific world of
photobiomodulation, where we can actually show
clinical data.

I love this so much because, yes, I. And I get
that question a lot. Or that, you know, that
comes up a lot. And people like, oh, is this just
like some biohacking thing? I don't know, I'm
just gonna, like, you know, how many minutes in
front of the red light for this or that or
whatever.

Like.

Or is this more of a spiritual, you know, open
our consciousness to a new level and it's like,
well, it's both, you know, what. What door are
you coming in? So I love that, that you're
bridging that and, sorry, there's someone at my
door. And I do see light as the starting point to

(19:32):
go in any direction that you want to go. Light
incorporated with the structured water. So you
move. So you started in pharmaceuticals, then you
moved into consciousness, and now you're in
photobiomodulation. So, yes, this crowd is
obviously very on the call here today, is
obviously very familiar with photobiomodulation.

(19:53):
But for those who are tuning into this podcast,
who maybe have heard of red light therapy, they
know a little bit about it. Could you give your
description of what it is and why it's so
important?

Yeah, I mean, we can kind of go very granular or
we can go very surface level with
photobiomodulation. I mean, it is just a long
fancy word for light therapy, right? Photo being
light bio, you know, modifying something,
modifying biology with light really is. Is the
definition. And it's a new definition because
previous, a lot of the devices that we use were

(20:29):
laser, so they had to change the definition from
cold level laser therapy or low level laser
therapy to something more inclusive because
people now use different light sources. So
photobiomodulation was the term for better or for
worse. It's a bit of a mouthful, but to me, it's
just the concept of using light to change our
biology. And very simplistically, the sun is our

(20:55):
major power source. And it's something that for
literally thousands and thousands of years, it's
something that biology has evolved alongside the
sun. And that's really why biology is here at
all, is because of the sun. So we respond in a
myriad of ways to the different wavelengths of

(21:15):
light from the sun. And so red light therapy is
taking a portion of the sun's wavelengths of
light, and it's the portion that's usually found
at sunrise and sunset because of the angle of the
sun at the sky at that Point we get this longer
wave light because if we think about light as a,
as a spectrum going from shortwave to long wave,

(21:36):
red light is at the longer wave of the visible
range and a little bit further on. So we're
talking about longer wave visible light and
slightly longer than that. And this is like I
say, sunrise and sunset. This light will
penetrate our bodies because actually our bodies
are very transparent to near infrared light. And
then we have a whole cascade of biological

(21:57):
effects. Now probably we're just at the start of,
of working out exactly how this works with our
biology. Because if we discussed before, this is
a new science, people, you know, have not really
published a lot on the mechanisms of light
therapy because I think, you know, we, we haven't
historically applied the physics angle to

(22:19):
biology, but we do know it's received by the
mitochondria, which is where our body makes
energy. We do know that it increases ATP. We do
know that it affects reactive oxygen species. We
know there's a transient release of nitric oxide.
So those small things mean that we have energy
and blood flow. And for a lot of people, you

(22:41):
know, that's, that may be enough. I think
probably what's going on is far more complex and
intricate than that. You know, because we have
synaptogenesis, we have neurogenesis. There are
lots of different light receivers, not just the
mitochondria. I mean, I came into it via water.
So, you know, my. One of the things I've always
got running is how are we actually changing the
structure of water in our bodies? And what are

(23:02):
those implications? Huge and many. But we have
other, you know, anything with an aromatic ring
is going to oscillate to a certain extent to
certain wavelengths of light, and specifically
red light too. So our bodies are really
oscillating, vibrating with these different
wavelengths of light. We live indoor lifestyles
now. You know, there's not many people who are

(23:24):
outside all day and all night kind of getting
those wavelengths of light. So we're very
deficient, we're very deficient as a species in
long wave red light. If you start to put those
back, it's like any deficiency. As soon as you
start to put those, those wavelengths back, the
body starts to respond and sometimes in, in, you
know, very amazing ways, because your body's been

(23:46):
deficient in some, something you give it back,
the body starts working. So I think from a very
simplistic point of view, it's as simple as that.
I see it almost like a vitamin deficiency or any
other deficiency. As soon as you put that Back,
the body will then start working because, you
know, you now have the tools that the body needs
to function.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think it's
such a good way to present it and to help people
to think about it. When I sort of, I'm out in the
world and, you know, this winter I've talked to
so many people who are like, oh, I had the flu
and it's been three weeks and I still don't feel
better. And I'm like, you should really go get an

(24:26):
infrared sauna. Right. There's a little place
near, near where I live where you can just pay
like $30 for half an hour and sit in there. And
they're like, what? And it's because, like, we
lack, we lack the language, we lack the, the
paradigm to think about light and so to talk
about it in. I'm like, it's like food, you know,
the difference between processed food and, and

(24:47):
real food. Same goes for light. But, you know,
it's the way our lives are structured. It's so
hard for many of us to get what we need from the
sun because we're just not outside enough. So,
so, and so now I want to get into the, into the
brain a little bit because there's a lot of,

(25:11):
there are a lot of red light therapy devices on
the market, you know, a lot of quality products
that will make a difference in your life, but
most of them are not specific to the brain. And
with your background in neuroscience and then the
new paradigm you've decided to focus on, on the

(25:33):
brain. So tell us from a, from a biophysics point
of view, from the quantum biologic perspective,
how you see the brain working and why it needs
red light.

Yeah, I think we, we, we have kind of lost sight
of ourselves a little bit as light beings, you
know, of, of really running online as a major
energy source. Again, it's something alien. It's
not something that we've been made aware of. And
maybe it's kind of even less obvious to us now
that we do lead these indoor lives. And maybe
we're not so conscious of, you know, the cycles

(26:10):
of light, the cycles of the sun. You know, a lot
of that has been taken away from us. You know, we
don't do our own farming. We, you know, we're
really very much kind of removed from this
understanding of, of how we respond to light. And
from a point of view of how the brain is working,
let's say the brain is covered in potential light
receivers. So the mitochondria, the water in our

(26:32):
brains, the flavins in our brains, the opsins in
our brains. So we're covered in light receivers.
And so from my point of view, it's how can we
optimize getting the this kind of beneficial
light onto the brain in a way that's going to
have a therapeutic effect? So from my research,
you know, I think we, we know that we get light

(26:53):
onto the brain. We do know that the skull is a
barrier because, you know, you've got quite a lot
of bone. You know, the brain is contained in the
skull. And although it's not dark in there, you
know, we are receiving and emitting light from
our brains. We do have to make sure that the
light goes in. And with light, the angle is very
important because if you have something that's

(27:15):
kind of square to you and you know the angle is
not right, the light is very bouncy. Light is
just going to bounce off different surfaces. So,
you know, if you see light coming off of, if you
see yourself shining up red when you're doing the
light therapy, a lot of that is light that's
coming off you. It's not actually going in. So in

(27:35):
order for light to actually get onto the surface
of the brain, we know that we have to have
something that fits flush to the head and is
contoured in the right way, that the angle is
just right. So there are a lot of light therapy
devices for the brain, and all of them are either
like a helmet or something that actually pushes
up close to the head. And the reason for that is

(27:55):
you really do have to get the right angle with
regards to the wavelength. You also need to have
near infrared, because red light is surface
level. So red light is going to get kind of get
the blood and it's going to get the skin and it's
going to do good work. But in order to get onto
the surface of the brain, you need near infrared.
So that's the longer wave I was talking about. So
from my point of view, I'm interested in

(28:17):
structured water. Water absorbs above 900
nanometers, so that that's relatively a longer
wavelength of light than most devices. Most
devices don't want the light to be absorbed by
the water. They want it on the mitochondria. But
for my device, I wanted to have these longer
wavelengths too, because I want to target water.
So you need to have a device that is at least 850

(28:39):
nanometers. Mine also does 940 and 1070 because
I'm targeting all kinds of different light
receivers in the brain. But the main thing is to
have something that's flush and then the other
thing is hair. We all have different kinds of
hair. And although I'm not saying that hair is
going to be directly a barrier, it will change
the absorption. You know, the darker your hair,

(29:00):
the more light it will absorb. The thicker your
hair, the more it will kind of reflect and bounce
the light. So from my point of view, I wanted to
give a consistent dose because I'm making a home
use device, you know, for many people to use. So
in order for me to be sure that I'm giving
everyone the same dose, my device just goes
through the front part of the forehead and also
you're there on the frontal cortex. You know,

(29:21):
this is a very important part of the brain. It's
decision making. And a lot of neural projections
end here in, in the prefrontal cortex. So if
we're thinking about how lights working in a
brain, and again, this is where we have to go a
little bit, we have to be a little imaginative
because we really don't have a lot of data on why
something like Parkinson's. It's really deep in
the brain, right. And you're shining light onto

(29:42):
the surface. Why is that responding so well?
Maybe it's because you have a global effect of
water. Maybe neurons are acting of waves guides,
maybe there's effective microtubules. Something
is going on. But if it, but whatever it is, it
does seem that this part of the brain responds
very well, even if you've got an issue with
something that's deeper in the brain. So from my

(30:04):
point of view, this is a great target, the
prefrontal cortex. There's no hair, there's no
barrier. You can actually get a reasonable amount
of light onto the surface of the brain. It's
still not easy. You're still getting a fraction
of the light. And that's why I also use a body
panel, because, because the effect of light is
systemic. So if you can shine light into another
part of the body, you're also going to have an

(30:25):
effect on the brain. You know, if you're shining
light into, onto the blood and the mitochondria,
picking it up, you know, that's still going to
end up in your brain. We're a huge interconnected
system, you know, you can't. So treat your body
holistically was also another one of my, another
one of my reasonings for doing a dual, a dual
system, a dual device system where you could

(30:47):
target different parts of the body and still have
a brain effect.

Right? Because to use Mei1ho's words. If we're
liquid crystal, then yes, everything is traveling
at the speed of light or faster all through our
body. You have the gut, which is communicating
with the brain. So light on the prefrontal cortex
and light on the gut. I wanted to talk a little

(31:14):
bit about these neurodegenerative diseases. So
Parkinson's. I feel like when I think about the
generation above me, my parents generation, the
parents of my friends, cancer and Parkinson's,
it's like I don't. It seems to me that almost

(31:36):
every family, someone has one of those two. So
talk to me about what Parkinson's is. I know that
you were involved in some studies using red light
therapy on people with Parkinson's and the big
lab using big lab machines. So you've now
developed a home use device. What is going on?

(31:56):
How is Parkinson's and early onset Alzheimer's
related to light? I know there's a lot of
research out showing that disrupted circadian
rhythms, having light in the bedroom while you're
sleeping has been linked to these. I think more
than linked. I think there's probably a causal
mechanism that's been shown by now, but so much

(32:19):
of the lead up to these diseases has been linked
to light. What is going on and how does adding in
photobiomodulation help to work with these
diseases?

Parkinson's People may know that Parkinson's is a
degeneration of the cistantia nigra. It's neurons
in a certain part of the brain, fairly deep in
the brain, and you have degeneration of the
neurons there. And even the word substantia
nigra. It's interesting because it implies black,
doesn't it? Nigra, you know, it's a word for

(32:58):
black. And we know that if there's a dark matter
in the body that we're probably thinking about
melanin and where, you know, that's why you have
these different. You have different kinds of
molecules that are doing different things in the
brain. It's very interesting that Parkinson's is.
Seems to be this disease which is caused by this

(33:18):
particular dark neurons being degenerated. And we
kind of know from a quantum biology point of view
how important things like melanins are from a
conduction point of view, from an electrically
conductive view in the brain. Now, that's
obviously not the orthodox scientific take on it,
but if you kind of go back to thinking about the

(33:39):
body as being electric and it's just really about
redox potential and how electrons are moving in
our brain and how light is penetrating the brain.
I think it puts a very different slant on
Parkinson's and why that would respond so quickly
to light therapy. You know, you have a lack of
this pigment in the brain which is making the
brain more conductive. And then you start to

(34:00):
shine light therapy on which is in essence kind
of charging up the brain in a very real way, you
know, in a like adding electrons to the brain and
then you start to see these beneficial effects.
But, you know, from an orthodox point of view,
there is a degeneration of these neurons cause
unknown in orthodox sites. But, you know, of

(34:21):
course we live, we're leading lifestyles where
you have got things which are going to reduce
your redox. You know, people aren't grounding
outside, people are watching blue screens, we're
surrounded by different WI fi. There's a lot of
things happening in our environment which could
potentially lower the charge or the redox
potential we have in our body, which may in turn
lead to degenerative diseases. And you know,

(34:42):
there are various genes and things which are
linked to having certain weaknesses in certain
body systems. So, you know that Alzheimer's,
Parkinson's, all these neurodegeneration are also
linked to certain genetic predispositions. So I
think really it's just a combination of genetic
and potentially epigenetic predispositions

(35:04):
combined with lifestyle that puts you in a
position where you are not able for whatever
reason to charge your body and your brain. So
that's why, you know, if you start to think of
the body more from our point, you know, very
simple battery point of view, it's just a
depleted battery is the issue. And what you're
doing with light is you're just charging the
battery. I mean, I think, I think it really is as

(35:26):
simple as that. Obviously, if you really start to
look at the biochemistry, lots of interesting
things are going on. And, and Parkinson's is an
interesting one because it's gut health too. You
know, I think it's mainly recognized now that
Parkinson's starts in the gut because we have a
lot of nervous tissue in the gut. We have the
microbiome that lives in the gut. We have the

(35:47):
vagus connection there. You know, again, this is
hugely important from a point of view of that
systemic effect of what's going on. You know, if
you have leaky gut and you have inflammation
caused by metabolites going into your blood, then
you have neuroinflammation too. You know,
everything is systemic. You know, nothing is
contained in its own compartment. So this, all

(36:09):
kinds of things cause this Leaky gut again, maybe
bad food, maybe pesticides, maybe pollution, bad
habits, bad relationships. You know, if you're
constantly stressed, you know, you're potentially
changing the chemicals in your gut and causing
leaky gut. So everything is connected, I think,
you know, very simple. Eat well, sleep well, have

(36:30):
good relationships. You know, that's the kind of
thing we need to do. If we've got ourselves in a
position where we've already got the genetic
predisposition combined with a poor environment,
that's really what causes any kind of, not only
neurodegeneration, but probably any kind of
chronic disease. How it manifests is probably
just a bit of a mixture of, you know, the cards
you were dealt with initially.

Right. So it's interesting you say that. I was
involved in an exchange on Twitter recently and
someone was saying, we need to stop calling it
mental health and physical health. And someone
was like, what should we call it? And the guy was
like, health? How about just health? It's
everything. So I'm going to open it up to

(37:16):
questions from. We have a lot of curious, curious
cats on the call today. Who has a question for
Sarah? This is being recorded, so raise your hand
or just unmute yourself and jump right in. As I
was saying, these are our practitioner. This is

(37:38):
our practitioner community. Who's on here today?
Who wants to go first? Lynn. Lynn, just unmute
yourself and ask your question. You can't. Okay,
let me. Okay, so this is from Lynn. Lynn wants to

(37:58):
know about red light protocols specifically for
Parkinson's.

Yes. So at the moment, I do have a small cohort
of young onset Parkinson's, actually. And that's
just because it's just so happened that that's
the community of people that have come for some,
you know how it is, somebody gets a result from
an illness and then they recommend to friends and
then you have a little community. And what

(38:25):
they're finding mainly is the. I have a program
in my headband that also oscillates at 40 hertz,
because we know that as well as shining light
onto the brain to have an effect, you can also
pulse that light at certain frequencies. The
brain is pulsing at different frequencies all the
time in hugely complex ways. But the hertz

(38:45):
frequency, or number of times of oscillations a
second is, is the one that we usually measure
when we're doing something like QEEG, which is an
electroencephalogram. And 40 times a second seems
to be a sweet spot for kind of enabling the brain
to entrain to a frequency where you're more alert
and Attentive. So the protocol that we currently

(39:08):
have for managing Parkinson's symptoms, and I
want to be very clear that I'm not talking about
curing, preventing, treating or diagnosing
disease. I'm talking about symptom management. A
40 Hz pulsing frequency with light on a headband.
Also utilizing a body pad seems to be having the
best result. And it's just 10 minutes a day on my

(39:29):
device, which is about 50 milliwatts if you're
using a different product, maybe just kind of
titrate up or down depending on the power. But I
would say with that, it's fairly low power.
Actually, it's a fairly low power device. Oh, and
Lynn's also asking, what do I think about

(39:51):
Vielight? I think they're awesome. I think
they're a brilliant company that's doing some
great results, great research. Should I say Dr.
Lou Lim? I've seen him talk many times and he's
always at the frontier of things. So, yeah, I
think it's a good product.

And what's the difference? Violated. That's the
one that goes up your nose, or am I thinking of
something else?

V. Light violet. They have. Yes. They have one
that goes up the nose and then they have. It's
kind of like different little pods they have. And
they're specifically targeting the default mode
network. So theirs goes on the default mode
network here, which is a bit awkward if you've
got hair. But I think they must have worked a way
to kind of push it in there. And then they have
an intranasal. And their idea is you're getting

(40:36):
light onto the kind of the olfactory bulb at the
back. But they have, they, I think their devices,
they sell different ones. So they have an alpha
and a gamma. So one is doing pulsing it 10 times
a second, one's pulsing at 40, but I don't think
it's in the same device. Unless I'm wrong, they
might have come out with a combination device.
But again, it's their kind of way of adjusting of

(40:59):
kind of targeting systemic is that they use the
nose, I use the gut because I'm interested very
much in gut health. And I think if you can solve
your gut health, a lot of the times the brain
issues go away on their own. So I'm very much
into using the gut, they use the nose, they use
intranasal.

Fantastic. And Michelle has a question before we
hear from Michelle. So you talked about doing
case studies and collecting your research. You
talked about some of the other companies that are
doing the same thing. Is this body of research,
who's going to look at it? Do you foresee a
future where in the United States perhaps the FDA

(41:41):
will recognize these devices? Like what is,
what's the ideal pathway with this research?

So at the moment we're still in a paradigm where
in order to get medical device approval you have
to go through the fda. I have to say I think that
is crumbling. That kind of institution is
crumbling, especially with the kind of the new
political environment that you have here in the
States. It seems things are changing, however, at

(42:12):
the moment. To get a medical device approval,
yes, you need to go through the FDA and some
companies are getting, like Veet talked about,
Vielight. That's one example. They're looking to
get a medical device approval for long Covid and
I think they've already submitted the data for
that. So if they get that, then that's going to
be great because it means that then is then a
recognized disease state that light therapy is

(42:34):
used for and then that hopefully opens the doors
for everybody else who wants to, to get a medical
device approval. I know there are other companies
looking at autistic spectrum disorder. I have
some colleagues that are working on mild
cognitive. So that is kind of the ultimate goal.
I'm at the stage where I'm collecting data on

(42:54):
young onset Parkinson's and motor neurons
disease, which you call ALS here in the States.
And I am just doing documented case studies under
the guided supervision of Professor Paul Chazot
at Durham. But I'm a long way off from being able
to submit that for medical device approval. But
at the moment, I think there's enough market and

(43:15):
a kind of option for people to be in the wellness
market still, you know, we can, still, we can't
talk about curing Parkinson's, but we can talk
about helping people manage their symptoms and
maybe going from a baseline of where they're at
to better. And I think for now, maybe that is a
place where we need to be. Because like I say, I
think things are changing and people are starting
to recognize more alternative ways of looking at

(43:39):
science and alternative ways of validating these
technologies. I already know, you know, people
are starting to look at different research groups
based in the Bahamas or maybe in Europe, where
we're kind of having the same level of scrutiny
on the data, but maybe not so much the
bureaucracy, red tape and outside interests that

(44:00):
influence some of these big bodies like the fda.

Yes, I agree. I think we're heading into a new
era. I'm so excited to see what happens. And yes,
that would be Ideal, keep the rigor, lose the
bureaucracy. That should be our mantra. All
right, Michelle, did you want to unmute yourself
and ask a question? Yeah, sure, I've got a couple
of questions.

The first one was just, I'm just curious on sort
of what measurements and.

Outcomes you're looking at other than symptoms.
Are you using QEG or any other.

Yeah, methodologies, just to see the effect of
your, of your red light. So I have a very small
amount of people where I'm doing QEG because it's
quite expensive and really I'm only doing that
where I've got access to the university. So I
have a few, I have a couple of case studies going
on at Durham where I have access to qeg. Some of

(44:57):
the people that I'm working with because I've
been in biohacking have things like aura rings.
And although, you know, it's still not recognized
as proper clinical data, it is valid data to look
at taking someone from where they're at to like
increased heart rate variability or deep sleep
scores or things like that. So I do use metrics,

(45:20):
not just aura, anything. I have a platform that
allows me to bring in anything anyone's got,
whether that's Apple, Garmin, Fitbit, Whoop,
whatever, whatever they're using. So I use those
kinds of metrics. I also use very basic
questionnaires because a lot of the people who
are at the moment buying my product are people
maybe a slightly older demographic who are quite

(45:42):
happy with self assessment questionnaires. So I
have one called my MOP Measure Yourself Outcome
Questionnaire. And that is very simple. It's just
what is your main symptom? On a scale of 1 to 6,
what does it prevent you doing? On a scale of 1
to 6, what is your general wellness? And then you
just repeat that every month. And I find that

(46:02):
hugely helpful for a lot of people because once
when you start getting ill, start getting better,
if you've been ill, you don't want to remember
being ill. So for a lot of people it's good to
say, okay, well, you know, when you first came,
you said that your brain fog was six maximum.
You're now saying it's one. Oh yeah, I forgot. I
used to be like that, you know. So for me, when

(46:24):
I'm just starting out, I'm not doing. This is not
clinical data that's going to be accepted by the
fda. But in order to kind of get something like
a. My mock form is a tool, you know, it is a
registered tool. I could use it if I wanted. To,
to publish the data. So I'm not using anything
that's wildly subjective, but at the same time
I'm just being. I'm very simple. I'm trying to

(46:46):
make things as easy as possible for people.

Yeah, that's great.

Thank you. The other question I had was whether
you had any experience combining your devices
with methylene blue? Because I've seen some
research around that with neurodegeneration.
Yeah, I, I do. I have done a lot of self studies
with methylene blue and I have a couple of. Well,
I have a guy in my group with motor neurons

(47:13):
disease who is, is very keen to kind of try out
these protocols with me. So he's been doing a
methylene blue protocol alongside the light
therapy and we're tracking his progress and he
thinks that he is getting an increased result.
I'm always, I'm a little bit hesitant just
because, you know, methylene blue has been used
historically as an anti, parasitic and an

(47:33):
antimicrobial. And I really, really have not been
able to get to the bottom of what is the exact
effect on chronic methylene blue use and the gut
microbiome. I don't know, maybe somebody here, I
would love to know.

Do you want to, just for the audience, just say a
little bit more about methylene blue, Sarah or
Michelle, sort of what it is and why it has been
become such a hot topic. As I speak this past
week, methylene blue blew up again on the
Internet because.

Did it?

Yes. Robert F. Kennedy. Someone shot a video on
their phone of him putting it in his water on Air
Force One or something. So now everyone's taken
over the Internet.

Again now this kind of taking off now with, you
know, you would never, I would never think that
we would be kind of being introduced to these
health topics in this way, but however it's
coming through, that's great. Methylene blue
actually historically is a dye. It's a dye that
was used actually, you know, in blue jeans. You
know, so it's a chemical. But the thing about

(48:36):
methylene blue is it's an electronic recycler. So
it's not only an electron donator, but it
actually removes excess electrons. So from the
point of view of having something that would work
well with red light therapy, it is a compound
that people have been using because, you know,
you can supply even more electrons into the

(48:58):
electron transport chain to enhance the effect,
or if you're kind of over producing electrons in
the form of reactive oxygen species, you can mop
some of them up. So a lot of people use Methylene
blue. You know, I've seen people use it in their
eyes lately. You know, people are using it in
quite outrageous ways. It, it has been used

(49:18):
historically in the US Military. You know, that's
why people talk about, you know, because you pee
blue afterwards. So I think, you know, it has a,
it has a very strange biological effect. And
actually that's how you can titrate the dose is
by seeing how blue your pee is and kind of
titrating back from that. But it was used, it was
used for malaria actually, to treat malaria

(49:40):
because it is anti parasitic because of this
effect on the electrons and it actually has an
effect on the outer coats of the, of the
parasites. So this is kind of where I'm, I have
tried it. I'm happy to try things on myself and
see how it works. I'm not always happy about
recommending it to other people unless I really
for sure know that it's totally safe. And I'm

(50:02):
not, I'm not 100% convinced about it right now
because I just need a little bit more information
on how it is actually interacting with the gut
microbiome. Because my whole thing is, you know,
that I want the body to be optimally functioning
and, you know, if you focus just on one thing,
like you focus on getting more electrons to the
brain to the detriment of your gut bacteria, that

(50:23):
doesn't sit well with me. But I'm very happy to
hear anybody else's input on this because it's
something that, as you say, it's, Everybody talks
about it and if you go to any biohacking event,
everyone's got a blue tongue and now they've got
blue eyes, you know, where they're actually
dropping it into the whites of their eyes.

All right.

I do. I have used it and I have used it and I did
think I, I got more energy for it. Do I use it
every day? No, I don't. Do I use it every, Do I
recommend it to other people? No, not unless they
really kind of know the risks and they want to do
a little protocol in it. And I have to say that
just from an N of one of a volunteer here who's
got motor neuron, he did find it helped with

(51:04):
brain fog.

Right? Yes. No, I've, I've heard good feedback on
it. I also haven't tried it. I know. I think
people think I try all the things. I'm, I'm
pretty low maintenance. I, I don't use that many
extra products, to be honest. Julie?

Yes, Hi. So my question Actually is this is.

Kind of good to follow on the methylene blue
topic because I'm thinking about.

Or could you talk about the difference.

Between a therapy for a particular disease.

State, such as Parkinson's versus that
deficiencies.

Or health issues that maybe led to that.

And I feel like methylene blue kind of falls into
that. Like could it be used therapeutically
versus.

Do you use it in a preventative sort of way?

Because the preventative piece just seems so much
more complex as far as what's leading to
different disease states. Yeah, I think a lot of
it is urgency and motivation. If you find
yourself already in a fairly progressed disease
state, maybe you may take a more calculated risk.

(52:28):
But I think it is just about calculating risk.
With any kind of drug, with any kind of non
natural intervention, there's going to be a side
effect somewhere down the line. There's always a
price to pay for a pharmaceutical or for a drug.
And methylene blue does sit a little bit within
that category. Whether it's your detox organs or
maybe potentially upsetting your bacteria

(52:50):
balance, there's always some price to pay. But
it's about taking a calculated risk because if
you're in a fairly progressed disease state, you
might find that that risk is worth it for the
potential gain. I think from a prevention point
of view it's very, you know, it's very simple.
It's just really optimize your environment. Well,
this is my advice. Maybe this isn't advice that

(53:11):
anybody would take, but optimize your light
environment, optimize your relationships,
optimize everything and you don't need to do to
anything. In addition to that, I, I think it may
be something where you would want to do something
Additionally, once you find yourself in that
state or whether you're like me and you're just
curious and you just want to find out, but it's
not something I would do long term without having

(53:33):
the necessity to do that. So again, I think it's
about risk management. I do have a predisposition
for neurodegeneration, so I am kind of always
trying to weigh up what is the potential risk to
this particular therapy versus the potential
advantage. But yes, you're right, prevention is
tricky. It's a hard sell for sure. And it's a

(53:54):
tricky one to know what you, what's the best
thing you can do to put yourself in a better
position in your later life.

All right, so Sarah, where can people find you
and where can they find.

The Sarah Thrive so people can find me. It's my
name's Sarah. But my company is also Sarah. So
I've. I've helpfully won this T shirt so that
people can see the different spelling. But my
name, my name's Sarah Turner and my company is
called Sarah Thrive. Spelled like the brain. C E
R A, like cerebral, like cerebellum. So I'm on

(54:29):
almost all socials with that handle, Sarah
Thrive. So you can LinkedIn whatever it is. It's
Sarah Thrive. The company is SarahThrive.com and
also Shaws. And anything, any kind of contact
info you find goes to me. So, you know, you're
more than welcome to email me. Otherwise it's
just sarathrive.com great.

And Jedidiah has questions.

Can you hear me?

Yep.

So in your experience, do Parkinson's patients
tend to be dehydrated and. Yeah, sorry, do they
tend to be dehydrated and, and do you tend. Do
they tend to be fast oxidizers? You're asking me

(55:21):
if they're dehydrated and fast oxidizers? I. I
don't know. I mean, I don't have a measure of
someone's hydration status. If people are coming
to me with Parkinson's, usually it's because
they've been diagnosed with it and so they're
just coming with a pre diagnosis. And most of the
time people don't know things like their status.

(55:42):
Most, most people are just coming from what, what
the doctors told them, and presumably they're
just being measured based on things like tremor
and maybe mri. So I, I really don't know. I mean,
I, I think obviously hydration goes very closely
with the light piece that we're talking about,
because if you're very healthy and your proteins

(56:04):
are working properly in your brain, then they're
going to be hydrated proteins so that they fold
in the right way. Because a lot of
neurodegeneration comes from misfolding of
proteins, which, you know, is coming from the
fact that maybe the water surrounding them isn't
charged or charged effectively, that the proteins
can fold in the right way. So I would think that
neurodegeneration is definitely associated with

(56:26):
some kind of water issue. But no, I, I wouldn't
have that additional information, and I'm not
sure that even the people who have been diagnosed
have that information. What. What's your take on
it? Well, I'm speaking more personally, but yes,
it seems to me that, that there's a lot to do

(56:47):
with that. I know that this is a question. If you
know anything more about it. Melanin itself
requires dopamine to make melanin. And since we
don't create enough dopamine in the first place,
that creates a problem receiving the light and
creating the water. I also wondered about the

(57:11):
fast oxidation piece because when you were
talking about methylene blue and excess
electrons. I know for myself and for my family
line, it seems like people are fast oxidizers. In
other words, they're, they're more high strung
and high metabolism, fast metabolism, as opposed

(57:34):
to the people that, you know.

On the other, have the other metabolic.

Problems of the, you know, putting on weight and
being the low metabolizers. And I want to know if
you had any experience with that or, you know,
observed just people who you worked with? No, you
know, I don't. And I suppose the science is only
good as the data that's collected from people,

(57:58):
because if this data was being collected, then we
would be able to do an analysis and find out, you
know, look for those trends. But I think if in
all the research, the data, we're not collecting
those data points, then it's very difficult to
say, yeah, there does seem to be a trend for
these kinds of things. Maybe once, you know,
maybe, you know, the whole thing about AI is

(58:19):
getting huge now, but maybe once we start to go
back, we could retrospectively look, if any, if
any of this data was collected, then we could see
trends. But I mean, your own observation again,
is data in itself. So if that's something you're
observing yourself, I would suggest that, that,
that could definitely be your idea of the survey.
I mean, just asking those questions. I'd love to

(58:40):
be, I mean, the clinic that I go to for
Parkinson's is not going to let me interview my
fellow patients. And so I would love to create a
survey just to ask the group of Parkinson's
patients whether they have symptoms that would
say, yes, you're dehydrated or yes, you are fast

(59:02):
oxidizer, things like that. Another thing I'm
curious about is this whole thing of the, the arc
that you have instead of like I have a red light
panel and just use it on my brain and my,
actually my whole torso, front and back. But
you're saying that because of the skull, the

(59:24):
light doesn't come in at all angles. Is that
correct? Yes. I'm saying in order to actually get
light onto the surface of the brain, you probably
need to have a device that goes flush to your
head rather than a device that's kind of square
on. Yes. But you're, you're still getting the

(59:45):
light in through the body, you know, you're still
having the systemic effect. And, and certainly,
you know, if you're shining it onto the abdomen,
you're still getting that gut effect where
you're, you're going to get a brain effect. It's
just if you want to target the brain directly, I
really think that you need to have a device
that's contoured. Otherwise the light just can't
get through the skull. All right.

Meredith Oke (01:00:10):
Good to know. Thank you. Thank you. And thank
you, Sarah. It's been so good. And I just wanted
to pick up on that, the dehydration piece. So for
our podcast audience, a little more general than
the pros we have in the room right now. Could you
just say a little bit? I mean, I think when most

(01:00:30):
people think dehydration, we think, oh, I didn't
drink enough water. No, of course we need to
drink a decent amount of high quality water. But
talk to me about cellular dehydration. And you
already mentioned the effect that that could have
on the brain in terms of protein folding. But how
does light help with hydration?

Sarah Turner (01:00:50):
Yeah, I think it's an important topic. It's, it's
about how the body is utilizing the water. And,
and if we think about inside the body, we are a
huge percentage of water, and some of that is in
our cells and some of it is in our blood. And it
makes a difference of where that water is
situated. It also makes a difference of making

(01:01:11):
sure that all the proteins in our bodies are
surrounded by water. And we mentioned May Wan ho
earlier. You know, this is one of her principles,
that everything is being kind of conducted in
this way via the water in our bodies. Because,
you know, we have intracellular water, but we
also have all of this water surrounding all of
our proteins. And from the work of Jerry Pollock,

(01:01:31):
we know that you can change the structure or the
order of the water when you expose a hydrophilic
surface, which is basically means water loving.
But any kind of membrane or anything inside our
body, if you expose the water that's next to one
of those surfaces to light, we can actually
change the order or the structure of water. And

(01:01:54):
this is a hugely fascinating concept, and
probably we could talk for an hour about it on
its own, but it basically means that you can have
different visualization viscosities of water in
different areas of the bodies and also different
charges. So my point of view is like protein
folding. Proteins fold according to where the
relative charges are on the, on the surface
structure. So if you don't have those charges or

(01:02:15):
if they're weak charges because, you know, we
have dehydration or not enough in those areas.
And you can have suboptimal functioning of the
cell. Hydration is very important. But also
having water, you're right, you could drink a
gallon of water. It's not going to the right

(01:02:37):
places, or your detox organs are not working
properly. Just peeing it all out. You know,
you're not getting that effect. So it's about
again, thinking holistically about it. You drink
enough water, but you also need the light
exposure and the good food and the good
environment in order to make maximum use of that
water so that you are hydrated.

Right. Coming back to what you were saying
earlier about keeping the battery charged, Right.
We need to be well hydrated, and the light and
the water all work together to keep us in that.
In that healthy state. Sarah, thank you so much.
Any last thoughts or anything that's coming to
you that you'd like to share with our audience

(01:03:20):
about anything?

No, I do. I think we've covered everything and it
was lovely to speak to your group. I think we did
good to do a podcast where we got some
interaction, but I also think it's also about
keeping it simple. You know, we just need to
really understand the importance of light in
biology and also in our science because it is
something that I feel like has been. We're just
so far removed from it. But as soon as you start
to kind of gain that concept and even, you know,

(01:03:47):
do little simple experiments, be outdoors, kind
of be your N equals one, you know, I think it
becomes more real and tangible because sometimes
the science, you know, we can get a little bit
stuck in the weeds, but it's actually very
simple. You know, good water, good light, good
friends. Done. You know, love it.

Yes. Real water, real food, real light, real
people.

Yes. Yes.

Recipe for happiness. And health. And happiness.
Sarah appreciates seeing you. I know you're very
busy traveling the world, attending all these
conferences, so I'd love to do this again
sometime. And thanks for being back on the QVC
podcast.

Thank you. Thank you all. Bye. Bye.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}130: From Pharma to Photobiomodulation: Sarah Turner’s Journey Into Light-Based Healing