136: Scott Zimmerman - The Hidden Power of Sunlight: How Infrared Light Fuels Your Biology

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"There are dozens of ways to quantify sunlight. And it matters how we present the data because it can mislead, hide, or enlighten," says Scott Zimmerman, who joins the Quantum Biology Collective Podcast to reveal how our understanding of light's impact on health is fundamentally flawed. Zimmerman explains that by reframing how we measure sunlight—focusing on photons per second per area per energy unit—we can better grasp its crucial role in metabolic health.

Zimmerman unveils groundbreaking insights into the body's quantum-level interactions with light, particularly in the infrared spectrum. He discusses how this knowledge could revolutionize our approach to lighting, potentially addressing the surge in metabolic diseases. Zimmerman also shares startling findings on how artificial lighting affects our biology, including impacts on color perception and hormone regulation.

Tune in to today's episode to learn why your office lighting might be sabotaging your health, how sunlight acts as a "battery" for your body, and why the shade might be more beneficial than you think. Discover the hidden quantum world influencing your health with every photon.

5 Key Takeaways

1. Get regular exposure to full-spectrum sunlight, especially during daytime hours. This provides the broadband light our biology needs for optimal functioning.

2. When indoors, use lighting that mimics natural sunlight's spectrum, including infrared wavelengths. Consider replacing LED bulbs with full-spectrum alternatives.

3. Limit exposure to narrow-spectrum artificial light, particularly at night. This includes reducing screen time before bed and blocking out streetlights in sleeping areas.

4. Spend time outdoors in natural shade when possible. Shade provides beneficial infrared light without excessive UV exposure.

5. For children, prioritize outdoor time and full-spectrum lighting even more, as their developing bodies are especially sensitive to light exposure.

Memorable Quotes

1. "We need to reframe the way we think about light from just something we need to see to an essential life source, food source for our body, just in a different form."

2. "There is a huge difference, even the 850nm helped a little bit on some of the color contrast, but it was really the incandescent that saw the big change. I would argue if he could actually do a controlled experiment with sunlight, you would see improvement even further."

3. "We're now moving from 'go do something and a day or two later, test it' to a timescale of minutes. Once you start doing that, you see all these different processes responding. The body can't wait four hours to respond to a major event or even a small event like a burn."

Connect with Scott

Website - Niralighting.com

LinkedIn post mentioned: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/scott-zimmerman-29b7b59_hopefully-we-can-move-on-now-activity-7338924880366592001-axmI

Resources Mentioned

Sweat Sensor: https://www.cortiwearable.com/

Nira Lighting: https://niralighting.myshopify.com/

QBC Resources

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Episode Transcript

Meredith Oke (05:00):
All right, Scott Zimmerman, welcome back to the
QVC podcast. Really lovely to see you again.

Scott Zimmerman (05:05):
Yeah. Beautiful warm day here. Sun's coming
through.

Meredith Oke (05:10):
Beautiful. Where are you again? Remind me.

Scott Zimmerman (05:13):
New Jersey. We had 13 Saturdays of rain.

Meredith Oke (05:17):
Oh, I was gonna say, I have a beautiful warm day
here. I'm just across. I'm just across the river
in New York. We're right near the Tappan Zee.

Scott Zimmerman (05:26):
Ah.

Meredith Oke (05:27):
So I have your weather. It is gorgeous. And yeah,
it's the rain. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So sun's
out. We're in a good mood.

Scott Zimmerman (05:39):
Yeah.

Meredith Oke (05:42):
All right, so I, I'm really happy to have you
back. I love how you explain things and your
energy and your dedication to, like, all this
craziness that we're all trying to understand.
So, as I mentioned, I was. I want to start with

(06:04):
this post that you wrote recently. And I know
it's part of something bigger which you can tell
me about, but it was. There's some very. There's
some sentences in here that I'd love to unpack
with you. I think they're just like, super
helpful. So. Okay, so I'm just going to start
reading. This is what you wrote on LinkedIn.

(06:24):
There are, there are dozens. There are dozens of
ways to quantify sunlight. And it matters how we
present the data because it can mislead, hide, or
enlighten. The impact of sunlight on the rapid
increases in metabolic diseases is best
illustrated using photons per second per area,
per energy unit.

Scott Zimmerman (06:48):
You know.

Meredith Oke (06:50):
Tell me, tell the English major what we're
talking about here.

Scott Zimmerman (06:56):
Well, you know, you can, you can put, you have a
bunch of things and you can put them in different
bins and depending on how big the bin is, the
number they'll go in and how. So you, you have
this way. And so we present data are the solar
spectrum in a certain way, usually in watts per
meter squared per degree per nanometer, the

(07:19):
irradiation as a function of wavelength that
makes this nice little peak where right in the
visible. And everybody looks at it. And then you
see the infrared, it goes way down and it looks
like it's almost trivial. Now I can take that
exact same solar spectrum and I can reorient it

(07:41):
or re bin it into what matters to the body, which
is how much energy, how many photons are in a
particular energy band. Okay, Think about it like
a solar cell. You know, a solar cell. The solar
cell guys have these. Build these cells that have
band gaps. So within the band gap, photons that

(08:05):
have that energy can do generate an electron.
Okay. Photons that don't have that energy, don't
generate an electron. Well, a similar type
thing's going on in the body. We have all these
enzymes and activations and barrier energy
barriers that are used to regulate how the body
works. You know, it's not like you have this.

(08:31):
Everything's just a wide open wild west and
everybody's everything. Every chemical reaction
is happening time. We have very controlled ways
that we go through various. Whether it be the
electron transport chain, whether it be immune
response, all these things are controlled using
enzymes and various other things and light to

(08:53):
essentially make us live and be healthy. When we
start getting things out of whack is when we are
unhealthy. And so all I was trying to show was is
that if you put it in terms of electron volt
energy, which we call electron volt, that's the

(09:14):
amount of energy it takes to move an electron
through one volt of potential. And you know, it
has a certain amount of energy. If we reorient or
re. Graph. These are, these are not really graph.
These are hit what they call histograms. Okay.
And I'm sorry, it's getting a little deep, but

(09:36):
bottom line is you can put it in the right bins
that matter to the body, which is in, like I say,
photons per second. You know, when you talk about
quantum, we always talk about photons. Well, now
you need to also talk about electrons. And that's
in electron volts. So these photons are, if we

(09:58):
show it in a manner that is more applicable to
mitochondria, all of a sudden you get this peak
at 0.75 electron volts, which is about 1600
nanometers. Now I was talking, I found this from
the solar cell guys. And I was talking to Bob and
I said, bob, what's this peak? And Bob says,

(10:21):
well, everybody knows what that peak is. That's
the hydrogen minus ion opacity window in the sun.
And I said, not all of us knew that that was what
was going on. But it turns out that there is a
particular energy band coming from the sun that

(10:44):
in that band there are more photons released by
the sun because they're allowed to escape from
deeper in the atmosphere of the Sun. And this is
well known to astronomers, but not well known to
me and not well known to any biologist that I
know of. But it turns out that it is an
opportunity. And it appears based on how the body

(11:07):
has adapted over billions of years and life forms
have adapted, that that's an optimum region that
where most of the activation energies associated
with biology actually occur. Is it a coincidence?
Maybe it's a coincidence, but it looks like it's
actually intentional. So essentially there's this

(11:29):
region in the infrared where that aligns very
well with what is going on on a biological level
as far as the amount of energy it takes to get
you to move an electron in the electron transport
chain or any of these other biological processes.
And to see that changes your, in my opinion,

(11:52):
changes your entire perspective as to what's
important in sunlight. You know, it doesn't mean
that you don't need sunlight to see, it doesn't
mean you don't need UV to do, to make vitamin D
and all the steroids. But in the infrared, and
this is not the near infrared, this is farther
out in the infrared, there's a kind of like this

(12:15):
merger or this coincidence of what sun provides
and what we need biologically as far as energy
levels. And when we talk about quantum, then you
get into this issue of. It's very well understood
that photosynthesis and electron transport chain

(12:37):
is a quantum process. Okay. What happens is, is
the electron, there are a series of barriers in
the electron transport chain. And either through
enzymes or just general mobility of the molecules
or sunlight, that that electron is allowed to
jump that barrier, generate some protons that

(13:00):
help that, and goes through a series of these
steps. Those steps are all in this region as far
as energy levels. And so it appears that from
everything we're looking at, that literally
sunlight doing a process called, and you can look
it up as photon assisted quantum tunneling is

(13:22):
essentially allowing us to be more likely for
that electron to jump and therefore generate a
little bit more ATP, more efficiently generate
ATP, which is, agrees with Glenn's data, where
he's shining some longer wavelength light. And it
doesn't have to be any particular wavelength, it
can be a lot of different wavelengths. And all of

(13:44):
a sudden the ATP production efficiency goes up,
CO2 levels drop, are increase as well. So we know
that that is, so we have done something with
light to enhance the efficiency of, of the
electron transport chain.

Meredith Oke (14:01):
Wow. Okay, so. Oh, so cool. Okay, so cool. So
I've a couple of things. One, I'm hearing that
what you're talking about is a framework for
looking at sunlight as an energy source for
biology as opposed to the traditional way of
looking at it.

Scott Zimmerman (14:21):
Excellent assessment. Yeah, better than I do. I
appreciate that.

Meredith Oke (14:25):
And then second of all, if we lack, if our
biology lacks exposure to this specific bandwidth
that you're talking about, we, we can't live.

Scott Zimmerman (14:40):
Well, I wouldn't say you can't live. I mean,
that's what's so beautiful about how you got
energy from the sun coming in from this
direction. Higher energy, lower energy, you've
got our basic surroundings. Our body is sitting
here at a temperature and our surroundings are at
a temperature that's enough to where it kind of

(15:00):
gets into the same region. But it appears based
on looking at it now from this different
perspective, that there is a huge advantage
associated with bringing in these lower energy
photons. Because bear in mind, you know, if
you're looking at the electron transfer chain,

(15:23):
it's a less than a volt or electron volt or the
energy level is fairly low and they do a series
of hopping in order to get from, from one
potential level down to another potential level
and generate the protons. So and those protons
then drive the ATP production. But it is pretty

(15:44):
clear from what we're looking at is that there is
a role that sunlight plays in enhancing the
efficiency of which you make ATP and therefore
taking that away and only putting us in these
dark environments. The modern cave that we have

(16:05):
where it's all high energy photons in
perspective, we're talking about 0.75 electron
volts in down here where we're talking about
going on with the electron transfer chain. We're
talking about, when we look visually it's three
to two, two to three electron volts. So much
higher energy. So if they come in and they get

(16:27):
involved in the process they generate, they, they
can definitely kick the electron up over the
barrier. But they also, the excess generates a
lot of reactive oxygen species. So.

Meredith Oke (16:39):
Okay, and when that is happening, when we, our,
our light sources are mostly artificial and
inside and we're not outside enough or is that.

Scott Zimmerman (16:51):
Well, no, it's happening when you're outside. But
what it, what it appears to be happening is, is
that the higher energy photons are being used for
important features. You need the, the uv, which
is about three to four electron volts to generate
the things we need for vitamin D, for steroids,

(17:12):
for cortisol, all these things. So we need that
to happen. But that process is very energetic and
damaging. You can get sunburned, you can get all
this kind of stuff, then you drop down into the
visible and we need that to be able to see. But
again it has enough energy to break bonds and do

(17:33):
things that are negative. And then you get into
the near infrared and you start to see beneficial
versus harmful. Still need these functions to go
on up here, but they're in. The farther we get
down, closer we get to the energy levels that are
being used in things like the electron transport

(17:54):
chain, the more, the less reactive oxygen species
being generated and the more efficient we are at
generating ATP and other things.

Meredith Oke (18:05):
Okay, so how does that translate into what we
should do like optimally so to expose ourselves
to this window that all the astronomers knew
about with the peak and the energy cell, the

(18:27):
solar cell guys know about with the peak, but the
biologists have no idea, even though what you're
saying is that it's of crucial for optimal
functioning of biology. So when is that?

Scott Zimmerman (18:40):
Well, I guess what I'd say is when we're at the
body is obviously designed under the assumption
that we're exposed to a broadband emitter. Okay,
okay.

Meredith Oke (18:50):
What do you mean by broadband emitter?

Scott Zimmerman (18:52):
Broadband sunlight, moonlight fire,
incandescents, things like our light bulbs, you
know, those type of things. Even the thermal
vents down in the bottom of the ocean are
broadband thermal emitters. And they follow more
like a Planckian type response. Okay. Which
means, not to be fancy, it just means that it's a

(19:13):
large number of wavelengths. Everything from UV
all the way down into the far infrared. Okay,
okay.

Meredith Oke (19:20):
So we're getting across the spectrum.

Scott Zimmerman (19:23):
Across the spectrum.

Meredith Oke (19:24):
All right. And that's what we need.

Scott Zimmerman (19:27):
And that's what we need. That's what the bodies
are developed for. When you start parceling it up
and you start. There is no place in nature other
than, as Bob would say, well, the auroras are
narrow band. Well, yeah, they're pretty, but
they're not the main thing that bother us all.
But every other light source that we are exposed

(19:50):
to has emitter is broadband. I mean, when I say
broadband, it goes from UV all the way out to the
far infrared. And so what appears, based on the
stuff we're seeing, is that, you know, we need
these higher energies to do things like crack the
cholesterol down to where we can make the stuff

(20:12):
we need for vitamin D. Have to have that. But
it's a process that is very energetic. And as you
know, you can get a sunburn fairly easily,
especially you and me. So the point is, is that
the other part, the longer wavelengths are there
to deal with the fact that we have these, have to

(20:34):
have these other higher energy photons involved
in the process, you know, and if you don't, then
you get more like what we're seeing now, the
astronauts, the submariners. I mean, if you look
at some of the hostages that were held down in
tunnels for a year without any sunlight, you see
what's happening. It's degrades you know, we need

(20:57):
the spectrum, the characteristics of sunlight to
be healthy. And unfortunately, that's becoming
less and less a part of our lives. You know,
people will sit in, in dark rooms with the TV
blaring away. That's just providing them with
visible light, the incandescent lighting, the
window, blocking all the things we're doing for

(21:19):
blocking energy, then the air, infrared from
coming into houses are all degrading the balance
that nature provides. And it's very clear, you
know, I'm still totally on the near infrared, but
I'm saying that what we're. Every time we move
out a little further in the spectrum to longer

(21:41):
and longer wavelengths, we're finding out that
the body has a lot of stuff that it's doing with
it that we don't even understand. And one of the
problems, the fundamental problem to start the
whole process is we keep on showing the solar
spectrum in terms, in the wrong terms, units of
measure. And as soon as you do that, and I don't

(22:02):
know if, you know, I don't think you have the
graph to put up, but what Bob did is he showed it
and showed the relationship between when you
start putting in an electron volts and how that
kind of just perfectly marries up with what we
see as the average activation energy of
biological processes. And so to me, it's the most

(22:28):
fundamental, amazing thing I've ever seen. As far
as, you know, it's clear that over billions of
years our biology was moving closer and closer to
this peak that had a little extra energy. And it
provides, it provides that extra energy in the

(22:50):
form that we feel alive during the day, we get
sleepy at night when it goes away. You know, it's
not that complicated. I don't think. It's just,
you know, convincing everybody that they need to
get outside a little bit and go to bed when it's
dark, you know?

Meredith Oke (23:08):
Yeah, no, the practical application is incredibly
simple. Yeah, go outside in the day, open a
window, have lighting that's as close to
broadband emitter as possible, and sleep in the
dark when it gets dark.

Scott Zimmerman (23:24):
I mean, it used to be that was the norm. And
people, you know, would go off to sanitariums to
get more light and get more fresh air and get
more, you know, good food. And now we've kind of
created this about the opposite environment where
you can't have this. You're not providing the

(23:46):
full spectrum to the. And I would argue that,
that it's, it's even worse than that because
we're talking about two very different balancing
act that's going on in the body. It needs these
to counter the other when you introduce just one.
I did some bio sweat sensor measurements and we

(24:09):
were looking at cortisol and it was amazing that
you could sit in a dark room with a TV on 10 lux,
just a basic sitting in front of TV and the
cortisol was spiking all through that time.
Melatonin was kind of suppressed all through that

(24:31):
time. So I think that, you know, there's an
argument to be made that it's not just that we
should do this because it's more healthy, we
should get rid of what we're doing or at least
try and add some, some infrared back in to
everything, because not having it is creating

(24:54):
harm. And that's my biggest concern. With all the
metabolic diseases. One of the reasons that we're
doing what we're doing is that metabolic diseases
are all linked into the electron transport chain
and the ATP production. And it's very clear that
the longer wavelengths are a positive

(25:16):
reinforcement of that, making it more efficient.
More efficient. The ATP is the healthier you
basically are. And you know, so. So I think that
getting it in the right terms and looking at how
biology and sunlight are mixing together, we're.

(25:38):
I guess one of the analogies that's used is that
we're kind of like this battery system and we
charge up and that gets the, you know, as Glenn
shown with his experiments, you know, just as
short exposures can have a beneficial effect over
a longer time frame because you're essentially

(25:58):
making the ATP, the electron transport chain,
more efficient and maybe even adding in more
units into the, into it to where it's just
operating at a better level, taking it away.

Meredith Oke (26:12):
With that in that infrared exposure.

Scott Zimmerman (26:16):
Right. Okay.

Meredith Oke (26:17):
And just to touch what you were saying earlier
about how UV is, on the one hand, extremely UV
exposure is necessary and important. On the other
hand, it does cause damage. So on a sort of like
a practical basis, you know, what I notice
personally is if it's. I'm outside on a hot

(26:39):
summer day, direct sunlight on my body feels
really good for, I don't know, let's say 20, 25
minutes, and then I kind of get, I get the
inclination to go in the shade.

Scott Zimmerman (26:53):
Yeah.

Meredith Oke (26:54):
And that's. Is that sort of what we're talking
about, like just keeping that balance and even
the shade and being outside is still having all
those positive effects you described, especially
on the body's optimization of ATP production.
That's still happening.

Scott Zimmerman (27:14):
Yeah, I mean, I think that. And we're going to
find more and more of these biological processes
that affect the immune system, that affect
neurological. I mean, you feel, you said, I feel.
Well, yeah, because your brain is basically
having some response to making you feel a
particular way. I mean, and, you know, we started

(27:39):
this out just doing the optics of looking at
where light goes in the body. But now what we're
finding is, is that, you know, it's not just
where it goes, it's also what it, you know, a
number of the wavelengths have very localized,
are absorbed very strongly. There's a picture I

(28:00):
put in the link at Lincoln Post here at least
recently, where, you know, we all have black skin
and white hair in the longer wavelengths. And
that means that the body is trying to absorb
those photons preferentially and using them for
something in particular. It looks like immune as

(28:24):
a pathogen barrier is one possibility, but, you
know, in general, you need all the different
components working together in unison rather
than. We have this tendency as a scientist to do
reductionist experiments even. Glenn's experiment

(28:44):
was done at 670 nanometers. Another one's at
1064. That's not what's happening in the body.
When we're outdoors, we're getting all those
wavelengths together. Some are going deeper in
the body, some are localized on the surface. And
as we move into shade, then it shifts it to more

(29:05):
into the infrared, then the visible and the UV
gets absorbed more strongly by the leaves and our
surroundings. So there's a shift in that general
balance, but there's always something to counter
the other. Unfortunately, that's not what we do
now. I mean, we have said, okay, we only need

(29:27):
from 400 to 650nm to see, to read, therefore.

Meredith Oke (29:33):
So that's. Oh, that's what our light bulbs were
like. Just that?

Scott Zimmerman (29:37):
Just that.

Meredith Oke (29:39):
But our biology was designed for, as you said,
the broadband emissions, all of.

Scott Zimmerman (29:44):
It, 250 out to 6,000 nanometers. I mean, we are
talking less than 10% of the spectral content of.
Is what we expose our children to every day. And
they don't get out getting what the wire. You

(30:04):
know, especially in urban areas, it's very
difficult. I understand it is. I mean, if you're
in prison, you got. They got real problems. And
you know, and hospitals are terrible. I mean,
they're probably about the worst place you could
go as far as this aspect of life. But we know
very strongly that ATP efficiency and ATP

(30:27):
production is a very good marker of health. I
mean, if you have, if you're operating at a high
level of ATP production and health or and
efficiency, then it's a beneficial condition as
far as our health is concerned. And all I'm
saying is is that we started out, you know, just

(30:48):
to give you a framework. UV starts here around
280 nanometers, goes down to about 400 some odd
nanometers for when we start to see. 650 is what
we mostly cut off for the LEDs. Near infrared
runs from 650 out to about 1100 or 1000
nanometers. This other infrared, the shortwave

(31:10):
infrared and minute infrared runs out to 6,000
nanometers. And while the energy level of the
photons may be less, less at the longer
wavelengths, they appear to be more appropriate
to do things with biology because those are the

(31:33):
energy levels that we, that the body is using to
regulate all our processes. You know, other than
seeing and generating, like I say, the uv, the
majority of our bodily processes, the entire
electron transport chain has a series of barriers
that are less than an electron volt, are pretty

(31:55):
close to electron volt, which is, you know, very
small amount of energy. You can come in with a
big, heavy, big high energy boost and you'll have
an effect, but you're going to also generate some
level of damage associated with it. So, you know,
like I say, and we've only gone to six that we

(32:18):
still don't quite understand, even the longer
wavelengths than that. And really, it's almost
like a fundamental problem with science. If you
can't measure it, it's hard to understand it, you
know, and.

Meredith Oke (32:30):
Yeah, well, it's almost like if you can't measure
it, it doesn't exist.

Scott Zimmerman (32:35):
Yeah, well, I mean, kind of what.

Meredith Oke (32:37):
The sense I get from, from the measures. Yeah,
the people who measure.

Scott Zimmerman (32:42):
Yeah, that, that, that is what the, the problem
we ran into. When you look at light, sunlight,
the solar spectrum in terms of watts, then it
looks like there's nothing useful going on down
at the bottom. And so what do we do? We use that
as, okay, that doesn't matter. It's just heat.

(33:04):
We're going to only make 400 to 650 nanometers.
Now what's happening? Everybody's getting these
little spectrometers and they're, they're silicon
spectrometers. Well, they only measure out to
about 900. And yet people look at and say, oh,
look at this, I got some, some, some power out

(33:24):
here at the 900 nanometers. Yeah, well, what
about 2000? What about 6000? What? And, and, but
people have their meter and they read their meter
and you say, okay, put it up to an incandescent
light bulb. Well, it does. This goes down. No, it
didn't. Incandescents go up all the way out to

(33:47):
about 2 to 2000 nanometers. But, you know, but
their meter, but.

Meredith Oke (33:54):
The instrument of measurement has no capacity. So
it just looks like it goes down.

Scott Zimmerman (34:00):
Yeah, I mean, look. And so. So people make a
judgment. Oh, we added near infrared. No, you
really didn't add that much near infrared. You
know, if you're outside and you're in the shade,
for every watt of optical watt of visible,
there's three or four times that in the infrared,

(34:24):
and that's the balance. So, you know, in our
light sources, we design them to have three to
one because of some of the work I did. But that's
in.

Meredith Oke (34:35):
In the light bulbs that you make.

Scott Zimmerman (34:37):
Yeah, because, you know, the point was, is that
people who have very dark skin in particular,
need more near infrared content. In my opinion,
children need more near infrared content because
that's kind of the good stuff. And we got rid of
the good stuff and put it in with the bad stuff.
And then we're surprised that all of a sudden

(34:57):
there's some issue. And how bad is it? You know,
10, 20 years from now? You'll figure that all
out, unfortunately. But we do know that, I think
we have been going through a grand experiment
where we have taken away all the incandescents,
blocked all the near infrared from coming in, and
we have these metabolic diseases. I know they

(35:20):
want to talk about processed food, they want to
talk about a lot of other things, but sunlight
has always been the largest energy input into the
body forever. And, you know, the fact that we
have now filtered that down to such a narrow
portion that it's not causing a problem, I think
is absurd. I mean, you know, I would say that the

(35:44):
high, though, there's a much higher likelihood
that the effect of our lighting systems and our
architecture is bigger than any food, processed
food. There's tons of different diets out there.
You know, people eat all kinds of things and
survive just fine. But this is almost like on a
global basis, we're having this huge shift, and

(36:05):
it's so the antithesis of what we really know
from a logic standpoint. You know, 1800s, people
were going into sanitariums and places like that
to get over TB and other diseases, because what
they do, they got in more sunlight, got in more
fresh air, got in higher altitude, breathing

(36:26):
better. You know, the idea that sunlight isn't a
primary factor in what we're seeing for all these
Modern society, diseases. I mean, all we're doing
is, is going and showing. Hey, there's a
mechanism. Yes. You know, here's a mechanism and
that makes. I love your cat, by the way.

Meredith Oke (36:50):
That's Puck.

Scott Zimmerman (36:51):
Yeah.

Meredith Oke (36:52):
We call it the infidel. Yes. So the mechanism.

Scott Zimmerman (36:55):
Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, that's really the,
the. If you can show a mechanism, then people can
start to quantify it. And you know, I'm hopeful
that what's going to happen is once we get some
more of these biosensors out there, that people
are going to start looking for themselves and
finding out whether or not, you know, how much in

(37:16):
the sun they need to be in order to really feel
good about themselves.

Meredith Oke (37:20):
Right. Which is where measuring is very helpful
because when people see that data like, oh, I'm
in front of my TV and my blood sugar plummets and
oh, I go outside and things stabilize. I just one
quick thing on the, on the processed food. Yeah,
what I, what I, here's my. I, here's my ideal

(37:43):
near future vision. Is that the, the way that we
are understanding processed food right now and
the huge push, especially in the United States,
it's been going on other place in Europe for
longer to really get the general population to
understand how bad it is to eat ultra processed

(38:03):
food as the mainstay of your diet. If we can then
translate that understanding into a paradigm
shift that sees light as an equal input into our
body on like on par with food, maybe we have a
chance of reframing. And as, as you were talking

(38:24):
about earlier, we need to reframe the way we
think about the sun with the way we measure the
outputs of the sun. If we can reframe the way we
think about light from just something that we
need to see to an essential life source, food
source for our body, just in a different form.

Scott Zimmerman (38:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a good way to
do it. I mean, essentially, you know, the
ability, our ability to operate optimally is
under attack at the present time. You know, and
I, we, it's not just the emitters that we've

(39:09):
done. It's also a lifestyle shift that we've made
where, you know, kids don't go outside and play.

Meredith Oke (39:16):
Yeah.

Scott Zimmerman (39:16):
Kids don't go to. Everything is a more of a
organized indoors under artificial lighting, you
know, and the kids last thing the kid sees is
before he goes to bed is a screen that has no
infrared content. So over time, like I say, all

(39:40):
we're trying to do is highlight the different
mechanisms and it's been this progression of, we
started out invisible, added some near infrared.
Then we got to the point we figured out that
there's now this longer wavelength stuff going on
and we still have half the solar spectrum to go.
Basically we're really seeing stuff at, you know,
we got out to 3,000 nanometers, we gotta get out

(40:02):
to six before we actually include all the stuff
that's going on from sunlight. And the idea that
nature hasn't optimized to take advantage of of
all those different energy sources is just
counterintuitive. You know, that's what nature
does because that's called survival. The entity

(40:22):
that can actually take advantage of something and
get an advantage over another one is going to win
the battle. And you know, and I just find it
really fascinating that it's not something that
we have the biologists over here, as you were
talking about silos, it's an enzyme, it's a
chemical reaction, it's all this other stuff. The

(40:44):
optics guys are over here saying, oh, we're
changing, you know, this, that and the other, you
know, biology thing. They're not talking to each
other hardly at all. You know, and the more we
find out. All I was trying to show is that, you
know, we've got this huge amount of energy
associated with sunlight that can be good or bad

(41:07):
for biological processes. And then you've got the
normal biology guys coming together and they're
meeting at this, just happened to be meeting at
this point. 75 EV. That is a unique situation
associated with the sun itself. And I just think
it's fascinating and fundamental in what's going

(41:31):
on and, but you need both sides of the parties to
give a little so that we can get, to get to the
truth, I guess is what I'd say.

Meredith Oke (41:44):
Yeah, you know, it's such a, like, it's just so
fascinating from a civilizational perspective
that, you know, we can have these incredible
human intelligences hyper focused in a certain
area and be so incredibly well versed and deeply

(42:06):
understand that little area, but be still
completely missing the bigger picture. And we
seem to lack any kind of society level framework
for pulling out and linking all these things
together. Even recently the magazine Scientific

(42:28):
American had a cover, the Sunlight Cure. It was
all about how sunlight is good for us and UV
light is good for us. And then they'd have this
one paragraph where the scientists were like,
yeah, but we don't understand the mechanisms yet.
And I'm like, you guys gotta go talk to Scott.

(42:55):
There are people who understand the mechanisms.
Go talk to Dr. Frederick Guy. But they hadn't
looked yet. So as far as they were concerned, the
mechanism is not understood.

Scott Zimmerman (43:07):
Yeah, and it's a shame because we do know a lot.
We know an awful lot. And it's such a perfect
opportunity. This is like the watershed moment,
in my opinion, from the standpoint of the
biologists and the quantum biologists to get
together, because this is coming down to quantum

(43:28):
levels and it is. And people get scared by that.
But I mean, a simple thing is to go back to the
unit measure rather than talking about Watts,
talk about photons per second. It's now a
quantized event. And it matters how many of those
photons, what energy level they are and what the

(43:50):
density of them in the body is being absorbed and
how that is coupling into our biological
processes. It doesn't have to be coherence and
all this other stuff. In my opinion, it will
start out with something simple. I got a chunk of
energy, it goes here in the body, and it helps
this process work better or doesn't help this

(44:12):
process work better. And you know that those
mechanisms we can do, we can model them, we can
put them together. And what I put in that, the
equation, the one, the simple little equation in
there on photon assisted quantum or quantum
tunneling, you know, it sounds really spooky, but

(44:32):
at some level there is a probability that small
little things like electrons, and this is what I
think is just so cool, is that the mass of the
particle determines and the barrier and the width
of the barrier all determine the probability of
an electron moving through a barrier. Now, we use

(44:56):
barriers in our biology to time when things
happen and how big of an event they are. Now, the
fact that we can provide a photon to that region
and add in a little bit more energy so that the
electron can jump that barrier and a little bit

(45:18):
more efficiently, efficiently generate a proton,
which then makes the turbine spin, you know, is
all occurring on these scales that you have to
start talking about quantum effects. And they're
not that great. It doesn't have to be that
complicated. You know, literally, there's a great

(45:40):
paper done out of the Guy Foundation. Nathan, I
forget his last. I think Booth, I'm not sure.
Anyway, showing water molecules, and he's
modeling what happens when an electron hits that
water molecule. And what it show was able to show
is that he could actually it affected the

(46:01):
molecule beside, it made it a little bit more
excited. It then made this one over here a little
bit more excited. And before long, the electron
popped out on the other side, you know, and so we
know that water is doing all these amazing things
in the body. We keep it, you know, we came out of
the ocean and we carried our water with us,

(46:23):
essentially. And in this region that we're now
looking at, Bob and I are now looking at, water
is the main absorber. It is the chromophore. It
is actually what's doing, absorbing the photon
and moving it around, making things work. And
it's. You think about like a. A whole big, you

(46:47):
know, one of those plague again gyms where they
got all the balls in them, you know.

Meredith Oke (46:51):
Yeah.

Scott Zimmerman (46:52):
And the kid jumps into the, into the thing and,
and the balls move, but they. Some of them move
quite a ways away from them because it depends on
how they all interact. So, I mean, what sunlight
is really doing, in my opinion, is taking and
charging up the battery a little bit, but really
generating an environment where electron

(47:15):
generated by the food we eat, whatever is more
likely to jump the barrier and get a proton
generated to generate a little bit more ATP and
do that with the least amount of the most
efficient way, I guess I'd say so that, that's

(47:36):
kind of what I think of it. But I guess I also
like play gyms, so. And trampoline.

Meredith Oke (47:43):
The ball pits are always. Yeah, I love it. And
yes, I think, you know, when you explain it like
that, it, it just makes it so obvious that we
need to be talking about biology on that level,
on that, that quantum biologic level and not just
the biochemical level or what. Whatever else
we've been doing. It gets just so clear. It.

(48:07):
Yeah, we just need you. We need all you guys to
have like, megaphones.

Scott Zimmerman (48:13):
No, you know, it's why, it's why, why, you know,
it's like Glenn, he's started out and he was
doing the. All the experiments on the bees and
the insects. And, you know, that's the other
thing that I wish people would really understand.
Get rid of your LED lights. Outdoors, we are
doing a number on insects in particular, because

(48:35):
if you look at optically, all the energy going
into the insects are so small that they are
essentially exposed to all the wavelengths at
once. You know, we got kind of, we're big enough
to where some of the near infrared gets down in
deeper, but we kind of have this outer shell type

(48:56):
thing going on where most of the energy is
absorbed on the outer surface skin. Why our skin
replaces every 21 days, blah, blah, blah. But
insects are so much the canary in the coal mine
on this whole thing. And I think that we're
totally underestimating the impact we're having

(49:17):
on our health by the standpoint of what we're
doing to the insect population. I grew up in
Kansas. You know, when I was growing up, you
drove. Drive down the road, you got grasshopper
all, you know, clean the windshields. All that
hardly ever happens anymore around here, it seems
like, you know, I was watching fireflies last

(49:39):
night out there, and there's not near as many as
I remember some of the other places. So I. You
know, it's just. I think that we need to get a
little bit more serious about what we're doing to
the environment. But in general, what Glenn's
been doing is he started out with the insects,

(49:59):
then he went into looking at cells, and then he's
moved his way up into mice. And now he's doing
basically all his experiments on humans and
exposing them to various things and seeing, you
know, his latest. Some of his latest stuff is
that, you know, he took and replaced the LED with

(50:19):
an incandescent. And then he also did an 850
nanometer type exposure. And he was looking at
color contrast in the eye. And this was just.
There's still LEDs up here on the ceiling.
There's just an incandescent desk lamp there
where people are working and all that other
stuff. And in less than a week, he was able to

(50:41):
Show a significant 20% degradation in their color
contrast, ability to differentiate colors, which
is. Glenn's. One of the world's experts on these
things.

Meredith Oke (50:51):
Okay, sorry, walk me through this again. So this
is Glenn Jeffries. So he started. He. He looked
at the impact of narrow. The narrow spectrum on
insects. Now he's moved to humans. And so he
found that people's ability to differentiate
color was degraded by working under LEDs in a

(51:13):
matter of weeks. Maybe in a matter of weeks now
doesn't mean.

Scott Zimmerman (51:17):
Yeah, I mean, all we're doing here is generating
all these different biomarkers. You know, it's.
You know, the body is dealing with thousands and
thousands of different reactions at the same time
simultaneously. So what do we do? We run an
experiment. Glenn's running an experiment. What
he showed is that there is a huge difference,

(51:39):
even the 850, while it helped a little bit on
some of the color contrast, it was really the
incandescent that he saw, the big change. And I
would argue if he could actually do a controlled
experiment with sunlight, you would actually see
improvement even further.

Meredith Oke (51:57):
So when an incandescent bulb was added, even
though the led, the ceiling lights were still on,
there was an improvement?

Scott Zimmerman (52:06):
Yeah, the biggest improvement that he measured.

Meredith Oke (52:09):
Wow. So LEDS alone. People's eyesight got worse.

Scott Zimmerman (52:17):
Yep.

Meredith Oke (52:17):
Almost immediately you add in an incandescent
bulb and it got better.

Scott Zimmerman (52:22):
Yeah. And you know, like I say, crazy.

Meredith Oke (52:28):
Yeah, this is crazy. No one knows this and that.

Scott Zimmerman (52:30):
The thing is, is that's one experiment with one
biomarker.

Meredith Oke (52:35):
Yeah.

Scott Zimmerman (52:35):
We could, if we could pull up. I mean I'm sitting
here and I'm showing that cortisol levels are,
are spiking on a couple minute intervals. I mean
one of the things I'm going to be another,
another thing that's coming out in this, what I'm
doing is I'm doing a series of four part session
on Bob's work and some of my work that we're

(52:55):
going to be posting that I posted two of them on
so far LinkedIn, there's been some more. But
literally everybody thinks of circadian and the
effect of light on their health as being this
kind of gradual. You know, in the morning you
have high cortisol, low melatonin, then you go

(53:17):
down, in the evening you should have low
cortisol, high melatonin and that's. It does that
in general. But again it's another measurement
thing. The sensor I have measures every three
minutes. Okay. Everybody else is measuring every
four hours or a day or whatever. Just picking a

(53:37):
pot. When you start doing, looking at it, at it
at a high sampling frequency in minutes, what you
find is that cortisol spikes when we eat, when we
do vacation, when we do exercise, when we watch
tv, you have this huge spike. Well, melatonin

(53:59):
actually has a spike too in response. If the
cortisol gets too high, all of a sudden out of
nowhere you see this huge spike in melatonin and
a drop in TNF alpha, which is a cancer marker. So
you know, because the melatonin is essentially

(54:19):
suppressing that cancer marker. So there's so
many different mechanisms that are being affected
by our exposure to light, what we eat. I mean
it's all coming together. You know I, we were, my
wife and I went out to a Mexican restaurant and

(54:40):
using and I had the sensor on and you know, you
don't see it at the time. That's one of the
intentions is you don't want to actually in got
to trick the data or whatever. But literally you
could see the appetizer, then you could see the
main course, then you can see it going up and I
had a time.

Meredith Oke (55:00):
I don't know if I want that level.

Scott Zimmerman (55:02):
What.

Meredith Oke (55:04):
Did you have dessert?

Scott Zimmerman (55:06):
No, I didn't, I didn't show up either. But you
Know, but then all of a sudden you get this very
narrow 10 minute window of melatonin spiking up
and the cortisol drops because melatonin
suppresses cortisol. So we've got.

Meredith Oke (55:20):
So what's, what's triggering the melatonin?

Scott Zimmerman (55:24):
Good question. I have no idea. It's, it's part of
our control system. There are, there's.

Meredith Oke (55:30):
So it just is like, I got it. The melatonin's
like, I gotta pop up and compensate for this
cortisol situation. Okay.

Scott Zimmerman (55:38):
Yeah. And, you know, maybe it's coming out of the
gut, maybe it's coming out of. Who knows? Same
similar thing happens with exercise. You do, you
know, everybody's measuring at all these hormones
at such long time spells. It's kind of like, take
a tennis ball, take a picture, throw it up in the
air, catch the tennis ball, take another picture,

(55:59):
ball didn't move. That's what's going on. And now
with the higher frequency sampling capability
we're getting, and same was true as Glenn. Glenn
was monitoring every five to 10 minutes. So he
could see the change. If he waited two hours,
there'd been no change. You know, but that's not

(56:19):
what's going on. There is a clearly a long
diurnal time constant, but there's also all these
transient response and you think about just makes
sense, you know, we go do something, you go, you.
All of a sudden I'm going to run around the
block. Number one, I'd have a heart attack. But
number two, you know, essentially all my all

(56:40):
everything's going to come up and something has
to respond on a timescale of minutes that's not
circadian, it's something else. And it
contributes to circadian and probably is much
more important in a lot of ways than these

(57:02):
diurnal things. That's just kind of like a
baseline type thing.

Meredith Oke (57:05):
Yeah. That's like the overview. But then minute
to minute, there's all of these other things
happening.

Scott Zimmerman (57:10):
Yeah. And to my knowledge, I don't think
anybody's ever really shown that. I mean, they've
known that cortisol was kind of a pulse, but I
think this is the first time we've shown
melatonin is actually doing the same thing on a,
on a time scale of minutes.

Meredith Oke (57:25):
Wow. And so how are you measuring this? Is this a
new technology that's enabling these measurements?

Scott Zimmerman (57:34):
Yeah, it's a sweat sensor that's under
development by a company called Cordy.

Meredith Oke (57:38):
Okay.

Scott Zimmerman (57:39):
Are in license, I guess is what it got.

Meredith Oke (57:41):
So everyone's going to Email me, like, being
like, where do I get one?

Scott Zimmerman (57:45):
Can they get one available right yet?

Meredith Oke (57:47):
Okay.

Scott Zimmerman (57:48):
But no, I mean, it comes back to this whole
question of what units we measure, how we
measure, and we've been kind of. What we're
finding is that the deeper, the quicker or the
more accurately you measure things in the body,

(58:10):
the more complex the whole process is. And you
think about it has to be, you know, if you let
cortisol run rampant in your body, then you're
essentially going to be in a constant state of
agitation. So what is melatonin doing? Melatonin

(58:30):
doing is squashing it. But melatonin only is.
It's. It's got its own set of controls on it, you
know?

Meredith Oke (58:38):
Yeah. And would you need to have enough melatonin
produced in your body to be able to do this? So
if you were in a. If I'm just thinking through,
like, if I am living an indoor lifestyle and
looking at screens before bed and there's
streetlight coming through my room, would I even

(58:59):
have enough melatonin to. For these processes to
work properly?

Scott Zimmerman (59:03):
I would argue no, because I think that you have
to look at melatonin as a consumable, you know,
it is used. What does it mainly do? It mainly
suppresses reactive oxygen species and its
metabolite, after it gets oxidized does the same
thing. There's about 10 different metabolites

(59:25):
below. This is what you started with. So that's
why it's such an effective scavenger of a
reactive oxygen species. So every time you do
something you are depleting, you are using
melatonin or you're depleting the melatonin
reserve. When we're outdoors, I would argue that,
you know, you're essentially pumping it up and

(59:48):
that that's giving you a storage of it. And these
are during the day type things. This is not, you
know, this is not from the pineal gland.

Meredith Oke (01:00:00):
Unless this is not the sleeping melatonin.

Scott Zimmerman (01:00:03):
This is, this is, this is a. I got. I gotta deal
with the fact that I'm generating tons of
reactive oxygen species in my muscles when I'm
going exercise. And those cells themselves are
generating melatonin. There's no doubt in my mind
about that, you know, but the quantity consumed

(01:00:26):
is huge when you think about it. You know, it has
to be. So we are generating melatonin throughout
the day and during the night, when there's low
cellular activity and less likely to generate
melatonin, then you still have the brain
operating at a high capacity. Pineal gland dumps

(01:00:49):
A bunch of melatonin in to help protect the brain
and any cells that are kind of damaged. At least
that's the mentality that I propose. So. And, and
it seems the data is backing me up. I mean,
that's what I think is really cool.

Meredith Oke (01:01:07):
I would also add that the actual experience of
people is backing you up. We work, you know, we
deal with, you know, I work with health
practitioners and health coaches, and when they
have clients who are compliant with going
outside, they feel better. You know, I'm not

(01:01:27):
saying it's like a cure all for everything, but
it. Like there has not. There are very few people
who don't feel better from sleeping in the dark
and going outside more during the day. That's
just what happens.

Scott Zimmerman (01:01:41):
Well, and you think about it, I mean, in this
scenario, if the melatonin is being generated in
all our cells. The what? The exercise data that
we have shows that the melatonin within 10 to 20
minutes goes up and plateaus at some level. If
you're doing a certain level of exercise

(01:02:02):
continuously, the cortisol does exactly the same
thing. But then what happens? Cortisol starts to
fall off after a few 10, 20 minutes of exercise,
but the melatonin doesn't. So it appears that the
body is always trying to generate an excess of
melatonin. So what happens? You go to the beach.

(01:02:24):
How many people say, I went to the beach and I
just feel tired afterwards?

Meredith Oke (01:02:27):
Yeah, I got sleepy.

Scott Zimmerman (01:02:28):
I did a really great run and I feel a little
tired afterwards. I did a cold water immersion. I
feel a little tired afterwards. I think those are
all indications that you brought your melatonin
levels up and, you know, they're part of this.
It's eventually getting back down to baseline.
But the transient on transient response, you're

(01:02:49):
getting a jump in your melatonin levels. And like
I say, I mean, when I saw the data for the TNF
alpha, how it felt, how much it was affected, I
mean, we're talking about spike downward.

Meredith Oke (01:03:04):
Okay. And the TNF alpha is the bad stuff?

Scott Zimmerman (01:03:08):
No, it's not really. It's a, it's a, it's a
marker associated with cancers.

Meredith Oke (01:03:14):
So I call that that stuff.

Scott Zimmerman (01:03:16):
Well, I mean, I'm sure that there are people that
know it much better than I, that can explain it.
All I'm showing is the data. Yeah, the data shows
that when that melatonin spikes.

Meredith Oke (01:03:27):
So the marker for cancer goes down when the
melatonin goes up.

Scott Zimmerman (01:03:31):
Yeah, and that's, that's supported by a number of
different studies that showed that Melatonin
suppresses tumor growth, things of that nature.
So I mean, at the end of the day, what I guess
I'm saying is we're now moving from these, oh, go
do something and a day or two later, test it for

(01:03:52):
this to into a timescale of minutes. And once you
start doing that, you see that there's all these
different processes going on responding. And you
think about it, you have to, I mean, I, I chopped
off my arm or something, you know, some major
event type thing or even a small event, you got a

(01:04:14):
burn or whatever, the body can't wait four hours
to respond, you know, and how's it going to do
that? And what the sweat monitoring is really
showing, I think is that there's an entirely
different control system that is operating on
minute time scales that are pumping, they're

(01:04:37):
responding to a variety of different processes
are stressors that we're exposing ourselves to.

Meredith Oke (01:04:45):
Right. And the more daytime exposure to broadband
emitters, the better.

Scott Zimmerman (01:04:52):
I think so, yeah. I mean, I keep on saying be,
you know, optical, you know, wear a hat. I mean,
don't slather yourself up with a bunch of
sunscreen, you know, you know, wear a hat, stay,
enjoy the shade. There's a reason you like the
shade. You know, it's got a lot more good stuff

(01:05:14):
than bad stuff. And you know, that, that, that
guesses my point about the whole thing.

Meredith Oke (01:05:24):
Well, Scott, thank you so much for coming back.
You really are gifted at talking about this and I
think playing a really crucial role as a bridge
from the scientists doing their lab work to the
rest of us who really want to know and understand
this as well as creating a product that is

(01:05:49):
helpful. So just for people to know, they can get
your lights. It's Silas.

Scott Zimmerman (01:05:55):
It's nairalighting.com nairalighting.com okay,
yeah.

Meredith Oke (01:05:59):
N I R A and if I lighting all1word.com.

Scott Zimmerman (01:06:04):
If I could convince anybody to do anything, we
have a DC version that's just a little plugs in,
has a lamp or you can buy a conversion kit that
if you got a lamp that takes a screw in bulb, we
can send you those a conversion kit. It's going
to last you. Basically we give a lifetime

(01:06:24):
warranty on the bulb because it's designed to
last basically forever. It's set to have two
positions a day and a night. And you know, so
make it very simple and you know, I think it's
the right way to go. If I could just convince
people to put these kind of desk lamps on by
their laptop or Workstation and just get the full

(01:06:47):
spectrum. It's not going to hurt you, you know,
and it's designed to be as close as match to. To
sunlight as we could. Even more than an
incandescent, because it's got the. Some of the.
During the day, it gives you some of the blue and
greens that you don't get from incandescent that
are in sunlight. So I'm a big guy on ratios and

(01:07:09):
balance, and that's what I like. If I could sell
everybody on those, I'd be a very happy camper.

Meredith Oke (01:07:18):
Yeah. And it is so simple. At the end of the day,
as you were saying, the complexity of the science
is basically infinite, but the actual practical
application, it's like go outside more and adds

(01:07:39):
some light bulbs like yours that balance out
that. Understand that we need more of a spectrum
than just the tiny little portion coming out.

Scott Zimmerman (01:07:47):
Well, especially with children, because a higher
percentage of their cells are absorbing, are
getting exposed to sunlight, you know, especially
in the near infrared and other areas. But, you
know, I guess what I would like is that you don't

(01:08:09):
need. I mean, I guess I'll put it this way. I
believe at this point that we have shown there's
enough mechanisms and information out there that
what we're doing now with LEDs is wrong and
harmful. And, you know, is it going to make your
kid die tomorrow or whatever? No, but why spend

(01:08:31):
all this money on all these other things, but for
some reason, getting a good exposure to your
child outside? You know, I had a really
interesting conversation, just briefly, about a
gentleman who was trying to help battered women
in Chicago, I think it was. And, you know, he
said, you know, women in those conditions are

(01:08:54):
afraid to go outside, and we need to find ways to
get that kind of. Those are the people in
particular, because it's, you know, that need to
be exposed to sunlight on a regular basis, both
for their physical health and for their
neurological health. So, you know, we were

(01:09:16):
talking about maybe putting conservatories up on
top of buildings in some of the urban areas or
whatever, planting more trees, things of that
nature, having safe areas where people can just
go and, you know, get a little bit. And from
Glenn's work, you don't have to do it every day.
You can do it on just. It needs to be consistent.

(01:09:38):
And, you know, like I say, children are the most
susceptible to it. And I think we have a
responsibility to do something about that. I
would ban street lighting the way they've got it
now, but how are you going to convince the
government to do that? I don't know. Anyway,
thank you.

Meredith Oke (01:09:58):
Thank you. The streetlights, that would be a
fantastic project. Well, Scott, we'll have to do
this again soon. It's really fun, and you bring
such a helpful perspective and the science and
all of the things. Thank you so much for coming
back. I look forward to our next chat.

Scott Zimmerman (01:10:19):
All right. Thank you, Meredith.