September 4, 2025 • 51 mins
📺 Watch the Video on YouTube & Spotify
"Our thoughts have frequency, if you think about it from a quantum biology perspective. And fear is one of the lowest frequency states to be in," says Dr. Rachel Brown, a traditionally trained psychiatrist who joins the Quantum Biology Collective podcast to explain why metabolic health is crucial for mental wellbeing and how light exposure and grounding can dramatically improve our overall health.
Dr. Brown shares her journey from conventional psychiatry to embracing a more holistic approach, including the establishment of the first metabolic psychiatry clinic within the UK's National Health Service. She discusses the intricate connection between gut health and brain function, emphasizing the role of circadian rhythms in regulating our entire body system.
In this eye-opening episode, Dr. Brown reveals how simple lifestyle changes like proper light exposure and grounding can significantly impact our nervous system, potentially alleviating various mental health symptoms. She challenges the conventional medical paradigm, encouraging listeners to think critically and explore alternative approaches to healing.
Tune in to discover why your morning light exposure might be more crucial than your medication, how eating grounded outside can improve digestion, and why the future of mental health treatment may lie in understanding our quantum nature rather than relying solely on pharmaceutical interventions.
5 Key Takeaways
1. Prioritize morning light exposure, especially sunrise and UVA light 1-1.5 hours after, to regulate circadian rhythms and support gut health.
2. Avoid eating too close to bedtime to allow proper gut repair overnight. Aim to finish your last meal several hours before sleep.
3. Practice grounding, especially while eating meals outdoors, to shift into a parasympathetic nervous system state and support digestion.
4. Be mindful of excessive screen use in the evenings, as blue light can suppress melatonin production and disrupt sleep quality.
5. Don't rely solely on standard lab tests. If you're experiencing symptoms despite "normal" results, seek additional opinions and trust your body's signals.
Memorable Quotes
"I often explain it as a bit like an orchestra. So the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the brain, the master clock's like the conductor, and you've got all these other orchestra members elsewhere as the peripheral clocks. And they should all be playing in time and keeping rhythm."
"Our circadian rhythms control our gut microbiome, essentially, and they're also involved in controlling our gut barrier function. And if we think about inflammation in the brain, you want to build a really robust gut barrier."
"My philosophy is that we are supposed to be in good health as long as we are putting our body in the right environment and giving it the right exposures and nutrition. And if you have a difficulty, it's a sign that there is something deeper going on at a cellular level that maybe isn't necessarily showing up in a blood test."
Connect with Rachel
Website - www.drrachelsbrown.com
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drrachelsarahbrown/
Resources Mentioned
Brain Energy: A Revolutionary Breakthrough in Understanding Mental Health--and Improving Treatment for Anxiety, Depression, OCD, PTSD, and More by Christopher M. Palmer -
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meredith Oke (06:00):
Welcome to the QVC podcast.
Rachel Brown (06:03):
Oh, thank you for having me. I've been looking
forward to this.
Meredith Oke (06:07):
So have I. I've been so excited ever since you
came through the certification at the Institute
of Applied Quantum Biology. I'm like, will you do
a podcast? You're like, just give me a minute to
integrate. So I'm. I'm glad we're finally able to
do it. So I love your story and I want to. I want
to start there. You are a traditionally
(06:29):
allopathically trained psychiatrist in the uk.
You work for the nhs, which is like the
equivalent of working for a big hospital system
in the United States. If people are looking for,
you know, to understand what that means, it's
like a big bureaucratic medical institution that
drives everything in your country. And you have
(06:52):
went through that system, worked in it for
decades, and have now come to a place where you
were able to introduce a metabolic connection
between mental health and with mental health. So
tell us about that journey, because that's pretty
amazing. Last I checked, psychiatrists were like,
metabolic health has nothing to do with it. And
(07:15):
here you are, Here you are changing the landscape.
Rachel Brown (07:20):
Yeah, well, I mean, hopefully the field is
developing because there's research going on
worldwide now. But I have felt fairly on my own,
certainly within the UK. I've been working in
psychiatry since 2004, went through standard
medical training and for many years, like, the
main tools I had in my toolkit were medications
(07:41):
and then referring people on for therapy or other
disciplines to get involved. Um, but in 2021, I
trained with Dr. Georgia Ead on the use of
ketogenic metabolic therapy for major mental
disorders. And then, gosh, I can't even remember
when it was. But a couple of years ago, I
(08:01):
published a book just on the topic, aimed at just
introducing the subject to the everyday person.
It was just everything I wanted to say, really,
about other ways of improving mental health that
don't necessarily involve using drug treatments.
And in the last 18 months to two years, I've
started the first metabolic psychiatry clinic
(08:23):
within the nhs. So it's the only one that I'm
aware of in the uk. So that's been a really
exciting piece of work to do. And I've also been
involved in some of the research that's been
happening locally in Edinburgh, where I'm based,
looking at ketogenic metabolic therapy for major
mental disorder.
Meredith Oke (08:40):
That's so exciting. So tell us how you define
metabolic health. And just for our audience, who
is obviously so deep into the quantum health, I
do see those two things as Kind of the same. The
understanding, light and earthing and all of that
is just an expansion of caring for our metabolic
health. So I just want to put that out there for
(09:02):
everybody. But how do you. How do you describe
the difference? And what was, you know, what
would a purely traditional allopathic take on
psychiatry be compared to what a metabolic take
would be?
Rachel Brown (09:20):
Oh, gosh, I'll try not get into trouble here. But
my traditional allopathic take on. On psychiatry
was to pigeonhole people into diagnoses, to group
symptoms together to make a diagnosis, and then
follow a standardized drug treatment protocol.
And that would often involve trials of multiple
(09:42):
different medications because, you know, it's
fairly common that people don't necessarily
respond to their first drug that's prescribed in
psychiatry using a metabolic approach. If people
don't know what I mean by metabolic, a very
simplistic way of looking at it is the absence of
type 2 diabetes or insulin resistance or leptin
(10:06):
issues we could get into. But essentially there's
a huge overlap between type 2 diabetes and all
major mental disorders. There's quite a lot of
research out there, but for whatever reason, it
just hasn't really made its way into mainstream
psychiatric practice. But thankfully, there is
more research going on now at the moment with
(10:28):
randomized controlled trials in process. So I
know a lot of doctors are very skeptical,
certainly within the allopathic world, that they
need to have a randomized controlled trial in
order to believe in a certain treatment. So
that's where we're at.
Meredith Oke (10:42):
So funny. It's like I have like 500 case studies,
but there hasn't been an RCT. It's not real.
Rachel Brown (10:51):
Okay, yeah, don't start me on that. I would
personally take a case study any day over a big
randomized controlled trial. And I might get into
trouble for saying that, but my perspective on
that is it's really. You can't generalize
statistics to everyone. And if you have somebody
who's actually been through their own n of one
(11:12):
trial, someone who's implemented changes that
have resulted in positive health outcomes. And I
just don't think there's any denying when you see
that. And once you see more than one get into the
tens or the hundreds, then it's a bit difficult
to deny that what they're doing is actually
something helpful that could be generalized to
other people as well.
Meredith Oke (11:34):
Yes, absolutely. And since we're on this topic,
at the Institute of Applied Quantum Biology, Nico
Kennedy is developing some protocols for all
practitioners to follow that would have their
clients outcomes be included in case study
Research. So we're looking at ways to formalize
(11:54):
that. I'd love to have, we'd love to have your
input and your, your work in there as well, since
we're on the topic. Okay. All right, back to
metabolic health. Okay, so how did you get into
this? You went to medical school, you were doing
diagnoses, treating with medication and therapy.
What cracked you open to some other avenues?
Rachel Brown (12:18):
Oh, it's really been my own health journey. So
I've, I've had, I do now wonder why I trained in
allopathic medicine, if I'm being perfectly
honest, because I've always had such an interest
in holistic health from a very young age. But it
was my own personal health journey of sugar
addiction, I think that ultimately got me into
(12:41):
the nutritional side of things and eventually
Paleo and then ketogenic diets and then quite a
number of years of actually using a carnivore
diet personally with multiple health benefits.
That's just one layer though. Before I got into
all the quantum and circadian stuff which just
added so much more to that, that nutritional
(13:01):
piece. But I also have a history of, it was
neurodegenerative disorders within close family
members that really motivated me to take a, a
proper look at my own personal health. And so I'd
been, I'd followed Mark Sisson and done a pr,
followed a primal diet for many, many years, but
(13:22):
was only, only kind of low carb, not necessarily
ketogenic. And it was after my dad died, coming
up for 10 years ago now that it really made me
take a look at what I was doing and I wanted to
really go ketogenic to capitalize on the anti
inflammatory benefits and the mitochondrial
benefits of that a ketogenic diet can provide.
And so that's really what get me, got me into all
(13:44):
of that. And, and then in 2021 I had the
opportunity to train formally with Dr. Georgia
Ead, who's an ex Harvard psychiatrist who's been
using nutritional strategies very successfully
amongst a whole host of different mental health
diagnoses for at least the past 15, possibly more
(14:06):
years. And that really formalized it for me and
that gave me more confidence to actually
introduce it into my allopathic practice as
another strategy for people to be able to use.
Meredith Oke (14:19):
Yeah, that really makes sense. Like when you're,
when you're able to have a mentor and a structure
and someone in a community of, of people who are
in your same situation, they were psychiatrists,
now they're doing this, it makes it, I mean it's
really hard to Go out on a limb by yourself. So
good for you for finding that and working with
(14:39):
her. That's fantastic. And I'm really, I've. I'm
really interested in your description of
metabolic health as basically like the prevention
of type 2 diabetes. Like that is really simple. I
haven't heard it put that way, but it.
Rachel Brown (14:53):
Oh, really? Yeah, that's my. I've got quite a
simplistic way of thinking about.
Meredith Oke (14:57):
No, it's perfect because usually you try to
describe what it is, but it's. But it works just
as well to describe what it isn't, which is like
an absence of your body's inability to function.
Like metabolic health is basically just saying
like your physical health affects your mental
health, which really makes sense.
Rachel Brown (15:20):
I know it shouldn't really come as a surprise,
but I think the way I view it, part of the
problem within modern medicine is the fact that
we split the body up into different bodily
systems and silos of medical specialties. And
there's not a very holistic approach that gets
taken. And so often my training was just all
about, as I say, making diagnoses to follow drug
(15:43):
treatment protocols. And so it's really
refreshing to be able to view things more
holistically and from a different. Through a
different lens, essentially.
Meredith Oke (15:54):
Yes. And I think that's really the future. It's
funny, in business there's this saying, I forget
who said it, but business models are just a
process of bundling and unbundling, where it's
like you think of now streaming channels. We had
a few and then we have like hundreds of them. So
that was the unbundling and now they're getting
(16:14):
packaged back up together, which is like the
rebundling. And I feel like that applies to
science as well. And I, like, we're coming out of
an era where everything was hyper specialized and
separated from each other. And the real future of
health is to bring everything back together, like
overlaying psychiatry, psychiatric medicine, what
(16:38):
with regular medicine, with quantum physics, with
nutrition, and bringing all of these things back
together. How, how have you worked through that
as a, as a doctor and as a seeker?
Rachel Brown (16:55):
Oh, gosh, it's difficult. I'm not going to say
it's been easy because I think there's quite a
lack of education and understanding when it comes
to thinking about cellular health and ultimately
mitochondrial health, although hopefully that's
coming a bit more into the mainstream via the
(17:16):
nutritional research that's being done. And
colleagues such as Chris Palmer, for example, in
the book that he published about brain energy and
the role of mitochondrial health when it comes to
mental health disorders. But I do feel like
there's a real tension between how I'm expected
to practice within allopathic medicine and then
(17:37):
my knowledge of how the body works, looking at it
through different. A different lens, such as
quantum biology or circadian biology. And so I do
struggle with that to an extent still within
allopathic medicine. So as much as I enjoy
speaking about nutrition and other lifestyle
approaches to people, I'm aware that that's not
(18:00):
commonplace within mainstream medicine, and I
think it should be. Really?
Meredith Oke (18:05):
Yeah, I think we're getting there. I feel like
everything's kind of imploding right now and
we're going to get to put it back together in a
new, pick up the pieces and build something new.
And so you've addressed this by kind of having
two separate businesses almost. You have your job
working for the NHS and then you also work
(18:27):
online, separate from your psychiatrist
credential.
Rachel Brown (18:34):
Yeah. So I. I trained in functional medicine
probably around five years ago now, and when I
did that, that was really refreshing to me
because it started to explain why people were
having certain symptoms which I hadn't felt so
much that I had been explained during my
standardized, my standard medical training. And
(18:57):
in terms of my private work that I do, what I was
tending to see was people coming through where
they felt as though the system had failed them.
So they tried quite a number of different drugs
and they either hadn't worked or they'd ended up
with side effects such as type 2 diabetes from
some of the psychiatric medications, or just
(19:17):
other adverse effects from being on medication
too long term. And once we were sort of diving
under the hood to have a look at what was
actually going on with them, I can say fairly
reliably, since I've done the quantum and the
circadian biology training, that there's not a
single person I've ever spoken to in my private
practice, or the nhs for that matter, who is
(19:39):
doing the circadian stuff. Right. So there's so
much that can be done. But also when we were
doing investigations, which I don't tend to do a
huge amount of now, knowing what I know now, but
initially when I was doing investigations, what I
was finding was that people had major gut
inflammation, even in the absence of a clear
diagnosis, such as celiac or inflammatory bowel
(20:01):
disease. And it wasn't until we could sort out
their gut inflammation, you know, we had to sort
out the gut inflammation and the metabolic
dysfunction to be able to get the mental health
symptoms to improve and resolve. And I'VE had a
number of people with both inflammatory bowel
disease and major mental health health diagnoses,
where time and time again I've seen them relapse
(20:23):
both disorders at the same time. And so a huge
area of interest of mine is gut health and how
that relates to brain health or mental health as
well.
Meredith Oke (20:34):
How does it relate?
Rachel Brown (20:36):
Oh, hugely. So, gosh. The gut and the brain are
connected via the vagus nerve, so the whole
nervous system regulation and nervous system
piece comes into both mental health disorders and
autoimmune disorders. However, there's also
signaling that goes back and forth between the
(20:58):
two in terms of chemical and immune messenger
signaling between the gut and the brain. And
essentially, when you have leaky gut, you can end
up having leaky brain because the gut barrier and
the blood brain barrier are very similar in form
and function. And if you have dysbiosis, so
(21:18):
unfavorable populations of bacteria within the
gut, this can cause a leaky gut barrier, which
then in turn can cause a leaky blood brain
barrier and an activation of immune cells in the
brain and inflammation. And then this is when
mental health symptoms can arise and
neurotransmitter pathways can be dysregulated.
You know, if you want to go to that extreme
(21:40):
level. But I always come back to mitochondria
because there's crosstalk between the gut
microbiome and our mitochondria back and forth.
So there's so many different ways that you could
look at this, Right?
Meredith Oke (21:51):
Yes. And so if we think about it as healing the
mitochondria, we're healing everything, the gut
and the brain. Tell me what leaky brain symptoms
look like. What's leaky brain?
Rachel Brown (22:06):
It could be anything. So it could be brain fog,
poor concentration, it could be depression,
anxiety, even psychosis. So anything really,
that. That affects mental health. And, you know,
there's a clear subset of people, even with
depression, that we know they have raised
(22:26):
inflammatory markers and so you know that there's
fairly reliably inflammation going on there. But
just anything really is what I would say based on
what I've seen.
Meredith Oke (22:37):
Right. So leaky brain is sort of like the
precursor to any kind of. Of mental health
symptom that.
Rachel Brown (22:44):
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not. I think there's so
many environmental toxins that we're surrounded
by that it's just not a great idea if your
brain's protective mechanism isn't robust to try
and keep those out. And from a functional
medicine perspective, we tend to think along the
lines of the body tends to store toxins within
our fat. And the brains are fatty organs. And
(23:06):
there's plenty of research showing that among
certain groups of diagnoses, there can be issues
with heavy metals, other environmental toxins
that can increase the risk of having certain
mental health symptoms.
Meredith Oke (23:21):
It's really just incredible to me that we treat
all that, with the starting point being a pill. I
mean, I'm not against taking. Taking medication
if that's what's needed. But if you're talking.
If you have a patient who has leaky gut, leaky
brain, whose mitochondrial mitochondria is
(23:43):
dysfunctional, who's metabolically dysfunctional,
and the first. The first intervention is to go to
a medication like, of course it's going to cause
terrible side effects because the. The system
can't handle anything really well.
Rachel Brown (23:59):
Yeah, absolutely. And this is something I really
struggle with now because there's very clear
research, I think. Dr. Cynthia Culkin is a
researcher within psychiatry, and she has shown
really clearly that having insulin resistance, so
metabolic dysfunction, causes a leaky blood brain
(24:20):
barrier or blood brain barrier dysfunction, and
this increases the risk of having persistent
mental health symptoms that don't respond to
standard medications. And my struggle now is that
a lot of the medications I have to prescribe
within psychiatry actually increase the risk of
metabolic dysfunction, such as the risk of type 2
diabetes. And Dr. Culkin's research has been
(24:43):
incredibly informative because they were able to
show if they can reverse the insulin resistance
and people's symptoms can go into remission
again, even if they've been unwell for quite a.
Quite a long time, a number of years. So that's
something I really struggle with now. And just
try to. All I can really do is try to take
informed consent if I'm in a position where I
(25:03):
have to offer medication to somebody just to try
to explain whether they'd be interested in using
different approaches and to make sure that they
know the potential downsides to trials of
different drugs.
Meredith Oke (25:17):
Wow. Gosh. A little heartbreaking. Okay, let's
focus on the fun stuff, which is what? All the
things we could do that are fairly
straightforward and don't cost a lot of money and
don't require going to the NHS or whatever the
equivalent is in the country you live in. Okay,
so let's talk about. We've established that a
(25:40):
healthy gut and healthy brain are completely
connected. Let's talk about the gut microbiome
from a circadian perspective. So why is it so
important to have regulated circadian rhythms?
Why is that so important to our gut?
Rachel Brown (25:57):
Because our circadian rhythms control our gut
microbiome, essentially, and they're also
involved in controlling our gut barrier function.
And if we think about inflammation in the brain,
you want to build a really robust gut barrier
because you get into a situation where you're at
risk of developing autoimmune system symptoms if
(26:19):
your gut barrier is leaky or you have intestinal
permeability. And so if you don't have robust
circadian rhythms, then there's a high likelihood
you're going to have problems with either
intestinal permeability or dysbiosis in the gut.
And if you have dysbiosis, it's more likely you
have a leaky gut and, you know, vice versa. And
(26:40):
so it just becomes a very vicious cycle. And
sadly, what I see too often is that people tend
to be sleeping in, not seeing the key morning
light. Circadian rhythm dysfunctions, just, just
pervasive from what I can tell from speaking with
people and working with clients.
Meredith Oke (27:01):
Yeah, no, it's. Nobody paid. Nobody has good
circadian rhythm unless they do it on purpose. In
our current world, I think between the screens
and the light bulbs and putting on sunglasses
every time you leave the house, like, it's, you
know, I know people who have very active outdoor
lifestyles, but they wear sunglasses from the
minute, like walking the dog at, you know, at
(27:24):
seven in the morning, all the way on, all through
the day. And it's. So it's something that we have
to think about intentionally. Okay, so help me
understand. So, so pretend I'm someone who comes
to you. I'm. I'm very nutritionally aware, I eat
really well, but I'm still experiencing symptoms.
(27:44):
And you're telling me that, like, the light is
going to affect my gut. Like, how is, how is that
happening?
Rachel Brown (27:56):
So we have a master body clock in the brain and
then lots of peripheral body clocks, including in
the gut. And if you have robust circadian
rhythms, the two will be coordinated. So I often
explain it as a bit like an orchestra. So the
suprachiasmatic nucleus in the brain, the master
(28:17):
clocks, like the conductor, and you've got all
these other orchestra members elsewhere as the
peripheral clocks. And they should all be playing
in time and keeping rhythm. And if that's not
happening because you're getting the wrong light
signaling, it essentially descends into chaos at
a cellular level. And that we could equate to as
(28:39):
inflammation in a simplistic sort of way. And so
in order to build robust circadian rhythms,
people need to be getting, ideally sunrise and
then the UVA rise. That happens an Hour, an hour
and a half after that. And there are very clear
connections between, you know, like blue, blue
light getting your cortisol going to get you up
(29:02):
and running for the day, impacting on energy
levels, and then the UVA light being intimately
involved in all of the neurotransmitter pathways
and hormonal pathways and kickstarting all of
those biochemical pathways within the body. And
so if you're not getting that, those key times of
morning light, then chances are you're going to
have dysfunctional neurotransmitter pathways and
(29:25):
thyroid hormone and sex hormones and a
dysregulated stress hormone axis. So there's
quite a few pieces of the puzzle there.
Meredith Oke (29:36):
It's so amazing. I mean, obviously I talk about
this a lot, but every time I hear someone explain
it, I'm like, wow.
Rachel Brown (29:47):
It'S.
Meredith Oke (29:47):
We're so. Yeah, I just, it's. I'm like, wow. It's
like almost like I'm hearing for the first time
because we're just so disconnected from this
level of understanding. Right. Like, yeah, when.
Rachel Brown (30:02):
And then.
Meredith Oke (30:03):
Yeah, go ahead.
Rachel Brown (30:05):
Yeah. I was just gonna say my next bugbear would
be all the screens in the evenings and then
nobody sleeps very well. Who's not paying
attention to trying to mitigate the blue light
toxicity? And everyone's melatonin is suppressed
because they're on a screen in the evening. And
not mitigating the blue light that's going to
suppress your melatonin. And then people are
(30:27):
living indoor lives, so they're not getting the
benefit of full spectrum light from outside,
especially infrared, that's going to boost all of
our melatonin production all throughout the body,
within our mitochondria. And I think so many
people are just deficient in the key antioxidants
for good cellular health. I don't know. There's
(30:48):
just so many different. There's so many things we
could talk about. It's hard to pick one right key
area.
Meredith Oke (30:54):
But light. But light programs, all of it, is what
you're saying?
Rachel Brown (30:59):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because I, having
been through the quantum biology certification
and then board certification, light is upstream
to everything else in the body. So there's been
this myopic focus on biochemistry, which I
(31:19):
suppose suits the pharmaceutical industry in
terms of drug treatment protocols, but really
light sits upstream to all of our biochemical
processes, even in the body. And so the first
thing, the foundational thing we need to consider
is the environment we put our body in and the
light that we're exposed to, essentially for the
(31:40):
photoreceptors in our eyes, but also the
receptors on our skin. You know, it all matters.
Meredith Oke (31:46):
Right, so the quantum is upstream of the
biochemical of the chemical, obviously. So.
Rachel Brown (31:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Meredith Oke (31:56):
So when you talk about the. Have our gut having a
clock, that clock is supposed to sync with the
one in our brain which, which is programmed
through our eyes. So is there, are there clocks
in the gut that need direct light as well? Like
(32:17):
those photoreceptors? Are they like, should I be
putting my tummy in the sun?
Rachel Brown (32:23):
Yeah, yes, okay, absolutely, yes. So there's
really, really interesting research showing that
UVB light in particular can improve the diversity
of the microbiome and it's supportive, one might
argue, essential for optimal gut microbiome and
gut health. And. But you know, there are other
(32:45):
aspects like photobiomodulation, like using red
light therapy that can also be supportive because
it's supportive of mitochondrial function, but
also for cellular health and melatonin
production. And. But yeah, the full spectrum
light piece on your abdomen is absolutely
supportive of gut health. I would say fairly
(33:06):
essential to prioritize if you can. I don't
necessarily live in a very high UV index country.
So yeah, there's that.
Meredith Oke (33:16):
Right. But the, even the circadian aspect. Okay,
so, so say I'm. I'm a client, not in the NHS
side, in the side where you can do whatever you
want and I come and I tell you what I eat and it
all sounds good. Like my diet is pretty dialed
(33:37):
in. Okay, so what you're telling me is that like
if I change the timing, even if I don't change
what I eat, I just change the timing of when I
eat, that's going to have an effect and also the
timing of when I get light. Because I find this
(33:58):
so interesting that we like, is we all think,
like if you want to change, they got to change
the food. Change the food, like say the food is
whatever. It's amazing. It's 10 out of 10. Like
there's still things to do.
Rachel Brown (34:10):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Okay, you don't. So I like
people, so I don't want to dismiss fasting. I
think there can be lots of health benefits of
fasting, but I practice intermittent fasting for
quite some time and I used to skip breakfast and
then I ended up tanking my hormones as a female.
(34:31):
And so I think there's nuance around who can do
lots of intensive fasting and who might need to
be a bit more careful that way. So I quite like
people to eat breakfast, if they can, in terms of
improving their Leptin signaling and giving the
body the signal that it's safe and you don't have
to be pumping out lots of cortisol. I really
(34:54):
don't like when people have coffee on an empty
stomach in the morning because they're probably
just going to be pumping out even more cortisol
and dysregulating the whole stress axis there.
But one really crucial piece is to not eat for
several hours before you go to bed. Because your
body's not meant to be digesting food overnight.
Your gut needs a break and it needs to be able to
(35:15):
rest and repair overnight. So you would be making
sure that you're blocking the artificial light so
that all of your circadian rhythms, your
biological clocks know what time of day it is.
And then they know their program to repair the
gut overnight. And there's a period of some
fasting overnight for your gut to be able to
renew and repair. So that's. That's all really
(35:37):
important.
Meredith Oke (35:39):
Right. Yeah. I remember, like, sort of on my
journey, we started regulating our circadian
rhythms and we actually, I mean, you don't have
to move to do this, obviously, but it just
happened to be at a time when we were moving
anyways. So we were living somewhere where it was
(36:00):
kind of. It was warm out most of the year, which
is really nice. But we started to do that and we
took. We started taking it really seriously. I'd
been doing it for a few years, but I just took it
like to a whole other level. And we had a lot. I
had a lot of improved health outcomes. And then.
(36:21):
So after, I don't know, like a month and months
and months of doing that, for some reason I
hadn't. I hadn't applied the timing of what we
ate. So we. We added that in and I just moved
dinner earlier. And like, the entire family lost
weight. It was during COVID so everyone had
gained weight because of. Was so messed up. But.
(36:43):
And every. The whole family lost weight. And all
I did was make dinner earlier. I didn't even
change what we were eating.
Rachel Brown (36:49):
Right. Yeah. Just shows you it was crazy. Yeah, I
am. Yeah, I just, I. Did your sleep improve when
you did that? Because I. Yes, I often. So we were
away seeing family recently and they tend to eat
later. And so to be sociable, we would go out for
dinner, but would be a couple of hours later than
I wouldn't usually finish eating. And then I just
(37:11):
know I didn't sleep as well. And then my aura
ring was telling me your heart rate was higher
overnight. Try not have. Try to not have a meal
too close to bed. You know all this stuff. I know
already, but yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Meredith Oke (37:26):
Yes. No, totally. If I eat too late, I will wake
up in the middle of the night with an elevated
heart rate. I'm like, oh, I just finished
digesting.
Rachel Brown (37:35):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (37:36):
Like I. And it, it feels a little bit like I
don't drink anymore, but it does feel a little
bit like being hungover and it's just okay. I
feel like, I feel like such a hot house flower,
but I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm a little
hungover. I had, we were at a party a few weeks
ago and they had, they brought in like this thing
(37:59):
to make pizza over the fire so that instead of a
caterer, they had like this big wood fire oven
and they were making the pizzas and they started
serving them at like 8 o' clock at night. So
again, to be sociable, I had some and it was
delicious. But the next day my husband was like,
(38:23):
do you have allergies? Like, what's like. And I'm
like, I ate pizza at 9 o' clock at night. He's
like, oh, it was like I had a hangover.
Rachel Brown (38:35):
Yeah. Oh. I mean, I've become really antisocial,
as in, it's just not my thing anymore to go out
in the evenings and be in really like lit up
places, especially in the winter. You know, it
almost feels, once you've been practicing this
kind of lifestyle for a while, it almost feels
painful in a way to put yourself in some of those
situations. Yeah. Because you just see such a
(38:57):
contrast between when you're doing everything
right and then some of the occasions when you
have to deviate from what you would normally do
and then you can instantly sort of see the impact
of that.
Meredith Oke (39:12):
Yeah, I know, totally. And even so, when, I mean,
we don't. I don't go out at night very often for,
for those exact reasons. And every once in a
while I'm like, all right, let's be sociable. And
yeah, there's, there's a price to pay. But you
know, it's good to see people. So occasionally,
(39:32):
occasionally I'll do that. So let's talk about
grounding. Is that a piece that you've, that
you've added in and that you see benefit from in
terms of mental health as well?
Rachel Brown (39:50):
Yes. I can probably speak more personally because
I don't know who. I've got a few people, I don't
know how reliably they, they implement the
grounding but, yeah, that's something that I do.
And in fact, I just seem to do more and more and
more of it. And from a gut health perspective, I
(40:11):
found it particularly helpful to actually eat
meals grounded outside because of the nervous
system regulation that it gives you, kind of
pushing you more into the parasympathetic rest
and digest nervous system state. So I know from
some of the investigations I've done that
sympathetic dominance is an issue that I have,
(40:33):
but I often see it in clients as well,
particularly people with autoimmune disorders and
mental health disorders. So I think there's been
so much stress in the last five years, and
obviously, lives just tend to be fairly stressful
these days. A lot of people are really stuck in
that sympathetic dominant nervous system state,
and that makes it very difficult for your gut to
(40:55):
work optimally. So, yeah, I personally choose to
try and eat my meals grounded whenever I can, but
otherwise try and spend as much time outdoors and
in contact with nature.
Meredith Oke (41:07):
So when you say sympathetic dominant, you're
talking about being in a, like, more of a fight
or flight or more of a state of tension versus a
state of. Of rest and relaxation.
Rachel Brown (41:22):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (41:22):
Is that okay?
Rachel Brown (41:25):
And sorry, my dog's barking in the background.
Meredith Oke (41:29):
That's fine. We like dogs. They take us outside.
So tell me how. Practicing circadian rhythm
regulation and grounding and earthing being
outside. So you're saying that that has an effect
(41:50):
on our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous
systems in addition to everything else we've been
talking about. Tell me more about that.
Rachel Brown (42:02):
Yeah. So there's research showing that you can
improve if you want to do measurements such as
heart rate variability, which would be a
measurement to an extent of how much time your
nervous system is spent in the sympathetic
dominant state versus parasympathetic. You can
see that there are improvements in heart rate
variability with more grounding. But people have
(42:24):
also done imaging studies showing systemic
reduction of inflammation throughout the body by
practicing grounding. And then from a quantum
biology perspective, I suppose we might be
thinking of it in terms of pulling in electrons
into our body to build up redox potential. And.
And. Oh, gosh, I don't feel quite like Carrie in
(42:48):
terms of being able to discuss easy water, but
that's a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, they're like,
optimizing, essentially, having good, good
cellular charge is what good health is about. And
so just put pulling in the essentially unlimited
supply of electrons from the Earth's surface
through your skin and into your body is
absolutely supportive of good health.
Meredith Oke (43:11):
Right. And because I've heard, I heard you say a
few times, like, doing this helps you feel safe.
Like eating breakfast, putting your body in the
light it's supposed to be in and the environment
it's meant to be in. These are bringing in, like,
actual feelings of safety because our body is
(43:31):
experiencing what it's supposed to experience or
how it, how should we unpack that?
Rachel Brown (43:43):
I just, I just think of it as trying to balance
your nervous system response. So particularly the
grounding and spending time outdoors. I mean,
there's so many benefits to being in nature and
green spaces in terms of negative ions. There's
all sorts of stuff you could talk about, but
(44:04):
essentially it's just shifting so that your
nervous system response is more balanced and more
in the rest and digest and the safe sort of phase
as opposed to being activated all the time and
stressed and lots of cortisol. And I just think
too many people are stuck in that state, myself,
myself included. So I always make as much
(44:27):
concerted effort as possible to do things to try
and regulate nervous system response. And I see
that that really is an essential piece of the
puzzle for clients to try and overcome chronic
symptoms of any kind, really. Because I sometimes
think about, you know, like, our thoughts have
frequency, if you think about it from a quantum
(44:49):
biology perspective. And fear is one of the
lowest frequency states to be in. And often fear
goes hand in hand with sympathetic nervous system
activation. And so just anything you can do to
support your body, to be in more of a relaxed
state, you. You need to be in more of a relaxed
(45:10):
state to be able to heal and for the body to be
able to do what it, what it does best, which is
heal. When you give it the right set of
conditions and circumstances. Does that make
sense?
Meredith Oke (45:20):
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think, I
think, yeah. I mean, I really resonate with what
you're saying that we're stuck in
parasympathetic, which is the more stressed out.
Sorry, sympathetic. Which is the more stressed
out when. And we want to spend more time in
parasympathetic, but we don't even realize it.
(45:41):
Like, I, I do think that's so true. Most people,
men and women, it might show up differently, but
we are living in that. And I notice it, I notice
it when I get startled. Like if, if, if someone,
you know, walks in the room and I didn't realize
they were there. I didn't realize someone was
(46:03):
home. And like, all of a sudden there's someone
like, like that. And if I'm, if I'm in a relaxed
state, I'M like a little bit startled. And if
I'm, but if I'm in that sympathetic state, I
literally feel like I'm having a heart attack for
a second. Like I'm, and I, and I. It makes me
realize like, oh, I was, I was already right at
(46:24):
the line. Like my startle reflex had to go into
overdrive. And it's just those little moments
where I'm like, oh, I need to maybe go meditate
or something. Go meditate outside or something.
How do you, how do you experience personally and
through, you know, what you've experienced, seen
with, with patients and clients? What does it
(46:45):
feel like and look like to be stuck in, in, let's
say, sympathetic overdrive?
Rachel Brown (46:53):
Do you know, for me personally, I didn't even
realize that I was in a sympathetic nervous
system dominant state. So I, well, in retrospect,
so it's a hard one to, to really pinpoint. So, so
I think a lot of people are stuck in that and
they don't realize it. And I was one of those
(47:14):
people. So I was aware that sometimes I would
feel stressed or unhappy for particular reasons.
But I ended up doing some hair tissue mineral
analysis that showed quite clearly where I was in
terms of my sympathetic nervous system response.
And then having that information kind of made me
(47:36):
reflect more, I think about how I was feeling in
my body and internally and, and then I've done a
few other things since, you know, like practices.
And I just noticed that you can have such
benefits from just simple practices such as
grounding. I went through a period of time doing
some cold plunging. I haven't done that for a
while now. But I, I, yeah, that was fairly
(47:59):
addictive at the time when I started it last year
and other, you know, other therapies, you know,
like even sound therapy. I'm a huge proponent
actually of sound therapy and the impact that can
have on your nervous system as well. So I'm
probably rambling at this point, but there's, it
didn't, it wasn't very obvious to me as the take
(48:21):
home message that I was stuck in that, that
state, if I'm being honest.
Meredith Oke (48:25):
Yeah, no, that's what I think is super. So
interesting that we're talking about this is
because it's not necessarily like you're in a
panic attack all the time. You're just in, it's,
it's like a slightly elevated state, you know,
of, of like, I don't know, vigilance maybe, or
you're just sort of like, like that feeling like
(48:49):
the, okay, I'm here's how I would describe it for
how it feels for me. It's like the difference
between if I'm driving my car somewhere I've
driven a million times and I don't really need to
think about it, versus it's dark and I'm a bit
lost and I don't know where I'm going and my GPS
is broken and I'm driving, like, do I turn here,
do I turn there? Right. And I feel like a lot of
the time I'm living life in that kind of like in
(49:16):
that mode versus the other mode where I'm still
driving but I'm like in a totally relaxed. I'm
like. It's not like I'm not having to think about
it as it's not like clutching at me. That's how
it, that's how I would describe it.
Rachel Brown (49:33):
Yeah, that's a good description. I was just
thinking just to reflect on that probably years
ago, I remember when my dad was teaching me to
drive or there's somebody. I think it was my dad
and I remember him saying to me, you know, like,
are you, are you worried about something? And I
hadn't realized, but I was leaning forward in the
seat. And so something I tend to do if I'm a bit
on edge, like that would be not to sit back,
(49:54):
relax to in the driver's seat, but to be leaning
forward, on alert for, you know, like something
unexpected to be happening. So. Yeah, that's a
good, a good analogy.
Meredith Oke (50:05):
Yeah. So we get in there and then we get stuck
there. And so all of these practices that you're
recommending support us to feel safe because I
think that's part of it too. I'm, you know, now
that I'm thinking about it, it's like I maybe
even don't want to get out of the sympathetic
state because I might not do as good a job. I
(50:29):
might forget stuff. I might not be as on top of
things as I want to be. And I don't trust that I
can get it all done from the other mode.
Rachel Brown (50:42):
Okay. It's a bit of a fear based mindset.
Meredith Oke (50:46):
Yeah. I mean, it's not active all the time, but
it's, you know, I do think that that's part of
it. It's like, well, isn't it? You know, because
I'm looking around at everyone around me. I'm
like, yeah, we're mostly like in go, go, go mode.
Rachel Brown (51:01):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm somebody. I guess
people have different personality traits, don't
they? But I'm I'm somebody who can't. I get bored
so easily and so I always have to be doing
something. And so I think some people find it
easier to relax than other people. And so for
those of us who are a bit more driven, that type
(51:22):
of personality maybe need to put a bit more
effort into making a concerted effort to do
relaxing activities and make sure you are
actually, it's true.
Meredith Oke (51:34):
I remember, I think Irene Lyon always makes this
point that the people who most need to regulate
their nervous system don't do it because it's.
She's like, it's really boring.
Rachel Brown (51:48):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (51:48):
I'm like, it is really boring.
Rachel Brown (51:52):
Yeah, yeah. I'm guilty as charged.
Meredith Oke (51:55):
Same.
Rachel Brown (51:56):
Yeah, same.
Meredith Oke (51:58):
So, you know, it's all a work in progress and
yeah, you know, I'll get there. So from, from all
of your journeys, it's. Is there anything like,
are there, you know, like what thoughts do you
have that you know, maybe don't have published
studies to support them? They're just kind of, I
(52:20):
always like to know like what people think. You
mentioned earlier about our thoughts having a
frequency, our emotions having a frequency. If we
could just like, you know, go totally woo. I'm
not holding you to any of, you know, I'm not
going to be like, well, I don't know if that's
true. Like we don't care. We just like your
intuitive feeling of how you see things based on
(52:45):
all the, all your experience and all your studies.
Rachel Brown (52:51):
I think a big concern I have about the way
medicine is practiced is that it often induces
fear or a fear state in people. And I have
concerns that that in itself, itself can prevent
people from recovering. So I think mindset is
(53:11):
huge and the way we look at things and how we
think about things and I don't know that I can
quote any particular studies that reference.
There might be studies out there, I just haven't
seen them. But about which types of thought have,
are associated with what level, what frequency.
But I think for most people it would be easy
(53:33):
enough to, to be able to see that. Joy,
gratitude, those, those kind of thoughts are the
highest frequency and then there's a whole sort
of sliding scale all the way down to fear being
one of the lowest frequencies. And yeah, I mean I
can talk about lots of woo stuff. I don't know if
(53:54):
I want to, but I'm fascinated by and still
learning about things like biogeometry and our
biofield and bioresonance and our thoughts
absolutely come into all of that. For sure.
Meredith Oke (54:15):
I love it. Listen, this is a safe space. But I
understand since you still technically work for
the nhs, you maybe don't want to go there, but is
your, like, intuitive feeling that these are all
(54:36):
completely valid realms to explore?
Rachel Brown (54:40):
Yes, 100%. No. No wavering on that.
Meredith Oke (54:45):
Yes, love it. 100%.
Rachel Brown (54:51):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (54:56):
So, just to wrap up, I just want to go back to
something I heard you and Kelly Ritter talking
about on her podcast, Quantum Mental Health. And
you said something that was interesting to me,
where somebody can. A patient can come to you and
their labs are all great, but you can just look
(55:17):
at them and be like, you are metabolically
unhealthy. And I want to talk about that because
that's been the experience that I had that
experience, and I know so many people did with
traditional medicine, where it's like, it's
almost become a meme now on the Internet,
there's. There was a meme I saw of people, like,
standing around a coffin at a funeral being like,
(55:37):
your labs are perfect. So I just want to talk
about that for a minute because, you know, you
understand that side of things so deeply with
your medical background. Talk to the person whose
labs who's getting that feedback from their
physician. Like, your labs are good. I don't
(55:59):
know. I guess you're just kind of tired, or I
guess you're just kind of, whatever, aging. And
how do you. If you are looking at somebody
setting the labs aside, like, how do you see
what's going on with them?
Rachel Brown (56:12):
Oh, I mean, I. I always automatically bring it
back to mitochondria. Mitochondrial health and
function. So, you know, there's really
interesting research talking about how people
present with symptoms when about 70% of their
mitochondria are dysfunctional. So I think it was
Dr. Douglas Wallace who published that research.
(56:33):
I've heard Carrie obviously speak about that. And
do, you know, even just coming from a nutritional
perspective. So the low carb community, for
example, we know that people who follow ketogenic
or carnivore diets won't necessarily have the
same lab ranges as the standard lab ranges. And
the standard lab ranges are pretty much on
(56:55):
average, done in a sick population, if that's not
too controversial. And I. Something I really
detest, and probably, if I'm honest, I've been
guilty of myself coming through the whole
allopathic training system is when people are
dismissed or even gaslit and being told that
(57:18):
something's all in their head, or there's no
evidence for their physical symptoms that they
have or mental health symptoms, I think it tends
to happen more with physical And I just always
think that my philosophy is that we are supposed
to be in good health as long as we are in the.
(57:38):
Putting our body in the right environment and
giving it the right exposures and nutrition. And
if you have a difficulty, it's a sign that there
is something deeper going on at a cellular level
that maybe isn't necessarily showing up in a
blood test because even just, you know, like
certain minerals are held within ourselves and
not necessarily reflected in blood tests. And so
(58:01):
if you're doing a drawing, a blood test, you
won't necessarily know what you're intracellular
mineral content or composition is like. And
there's so much nuance there and I think there's
so much that we don't know. And I, I personally
dislike the arrogance of modern medicine at
times. So I, I would never claim that I know
(58:22):
everything or that we understand absolutely
everything about how the body works, but I think
having a quantum biology perspective certainly
sheds a lot more light on things than, than just
going by standards tests. So I would always say
to people to, you know, get a second opinion or
(58:42):
just don't be afraid to try to think critically
yourself or research things yourself and don't
just automatically accept advice verbatim that
you're given. Just, you know, I think I always
encourage people to try to understand things
themselves if they can, if they're interested in
that, so that they can make the best decision
possible for their own health.
Meredith Oke (59:03):
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think, yeah, we just
need to keep looking. There's always, there are
always more answers. And I know sometimes not
advocating to like be obsessive about it. I
certainly am not, as you can tell by my 8pm pizza
(59:23):
eating. But there is always, there's always more
like, there's just always another door to open.
Um, and they, they all layer on top of each
other. So I, you know, I love that you're sending
that message. And then you mentioned earlier,
you're like, I don't even know why I studied
medicine. And it's funny, I've, I've had so many
(59:44):
doctors say that they're like this, that wasn't
like. I've always felt drawn to the more
holistic, healing modalities. I don't know why I
went into medicine, but I feel like you were all
called to do that because we need the voices that
have both. So I appreciate you putting yourself
through that system because, you know, it just,
(01:00:07):
it gives you a different, a different perspective
and a, and a way to shift the paradigm that can't
happen just from Someone who, from someone who is
looking at it from the outside. So. Okay, I
think, I think you followed your soul's journey
and we all appreciate it.
Rachel Brown (01:00:26):
Yeah, I'll go with that. Hasn't been 20 odd years
wasted so.
Meredith Oke (01:00:33):
Not at all. Not at all. And you know I'm just
want to acknowledge you for having, having the
curiosity and the courage to look outside your
profession. It's not easy. So for people who
would like to work with you because you do have
an offer outside of, you know, being a
(01:00:54):
psychiatrist with nhs, how do, how do people find
you?
Rachel Brown (01:00:58):
Yep. So from a social media perspective,
Instagram is probably the best place to find me.
I'm most active there. Or I've got a website I
can get you to link. If people want to find out a
bit more about me and, and yeah.
Meredith Oke (01:01:15):
And you they can like book a session or book,
book a consult with you through your website.
Okay. And that is just tell me what the URL is.
Is it Dr. Rachel Brown?
Rachel Brown (01:01:26):
It's Dr. Rachel S. Brown dot com.
Meredith Oke (01:01:28):
Okay. Dr. Rachel S. Brown dotcom. We'll put the
link in the show notes but sometimes people just
listen when they're driving or whatever so I
always like to say it loudly. Dr. Dr. Rachel S.
Brown dot com. Okay, Rachel, thank you so much.
I'd love to do this again sometime. Feel like
(01:01:50):
we're just like this was like the warm up and.
Yeah. Any final thoughts you want to want to
share with the crew?
Rachel Brown (01:02:01):
Just, I just, I never want people to lose hope
even if they're in a seemingly dire situation
health wise because I think there's always more
that can be done as you say and you just have to
be questioning and willing to look for solutions.
So just want to bring a message of hope really
and healing because I think that's possible.
Meredith Oke (01:02:24):
Thank you. I love that. Thank you Rachel. See you
soon.
Rachel Brown (01:02:29):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Meredith Oke (01:02:37):
Sa.
Welcome to the QVC podcast.
Rachel Brown (06:03):
Oh, thank you for having me. I've been looking
forward to this.
Meredith Oke (06:07):
So have I. I've been so excited ever since you
came through the certification at the Institute
of Applied Quantum Biology. I'm like, will you do
a podcast? You're like, just give me a minute to
integrate. So I'm. I'm glad we're finally able to
do it. So I love your story and I want to. I want
to start there. You are a traditionally
(06:29):
allopathically trained psychiatrist in the uk.
You work for the nhs, which is like the
equivalent of working for a big hospital system
in the United States. If people are looking for,
you know, to understand what that means, it's
like a big bureaucratic medical institution that
drives everything in your country. And you have
(06:52):
went through that system, worked in it for
decades, and have now come to a place where you
were able to introduce a metabolic connection
between mental health and with mental health. So
tell us about that journey, because that's pretty
amazing. Last I checked, psychiatrists were like,
metabolic health has nothing to do with it. And
(07:15):
here you are, Here you are changing the landscape.
Rachel Brown (07:20):
Yeah, well, I mean, hopefully the field is
developing because there's research going on
worldwide now. But I have felt fairly on my own,
certainly within the UK. I've been working in
psychiatry since 2004, went through standard
medical training and for many years, like, the
main tools I had in my toolkit were medications
(07:41):
and then referring people on for therapy or other
disciplines to get involved. Um, but in 2021, I
trained with Dr. Georgia Ead on the use of
ketogenic metabolic therapy for major mental
disorders. And then, gosh, I can't even remember
when it was. But a couple of years ago, I
(08:01):
published a book just on the topic, aimed at just
introducing the subject to the everyday person.
It was just everything I wanted to say, really,
about other ways of improving mental health that
don't necessarily involve using drug treatments.
And in the last 18 months to two years, I've
started the first metabolic psychiatry clinic
(08:23):
within the nhs. So it's the only one that I'm
aware of in the uk. So that's been a really
exciting piece of work to do. And I've also been
involved in some of the research that's been
happening locally in Edinburgh, where I'm based,
looking at ketogenic metabolic therapy for major
mental disorder.
Meredith Oke (08:40):
That's so exciting. So tell us how you define
metabolic health. And just for our audience, who
is obviously so deep into the quantum health, I
do see those two things as Kind of the same. The
understanding, light and earthing and all of that
is just an expansion of caring for our metabolic
health. So I just want to put that out there for
(09:02):
everybody. But how do you. How do you describe
the difference? And what was, you know, what
would a purely traditional allopathic take on
psychiatry be compared to what a metabolic take
would be?
Rachel Brown (09:20):
Oh, gosh, I'll try not get into trouble here. But
my traditional allopathic take on. On psychiatry
was to pigeonhole people into diagnoses, to group
symptoms together to make a diagnosis, and then
follow a standardized drug treatment protocol.
And that would often involve trials of multiple
(09:42):
different medications because, you know, it's
fairly common that people don't necessarily
respond to their first drug that's prescribed in
psychiatry using a metabolic approach. If people
don't know what I mean by metabolic, a very
simplistic way of looking at it is the absence of
type 2 diabetes or insulin resistance or leptin
(10:06):
issues we could get into. But essentially there's
a huge overlap between type 2 diabetes and all
major mental disorders. There's quite a lot of
research out there, but for whatever reason, it
just hasn't really made its way into mainstream
psychiatric practice. But thankfully, there is
more research going on now at the moment with
(10:28):
randomized controlled trials in process. So I
know a lot of doctors are very skeptical,
certainly within the allopathic world, that they
need to have a randomized controlled trial in
order to believe in a certain treatment. So
that's where we're at.
Meredith Oke (10:42):
So funny. It's like I have like 500 case studies,
but there hasn't been an RCT. It's not real.
Rachel Brown (10:51):
Okay, yeah, don't start me on that. I would
personally take a case study any day over a big
randomized controlled trial. And I might get into
trouble for saying that, but my perspective on
that is it's really. You can't generalize
statistics to everyone. And if you have somebody
who's actually been through their own n of one
(11:12):
trial, someone who's implemented changes that
have resulted in positive health outcomes. And I
just don't think there's any denying when you see
that. And once you see more than one get into the
tens or the hundreds, then it's a bit difficult
to deny that what they're doing is actually
something helpful that could be generalized to
other people as well.
Meredith Oke (11:34):
Yes, absolutely. And since we're on this topic,
at the Institute of Applied Quantum Biology, Nico
Kennedy is developing some protocols for all
practitioners to follow that would have their
clients outcomes be included in case study
Research. So we're looking at ways to formalize
(11:54):
that. I'd love to have, we'd love to have your
input and your, your work in there as well, since
we're on the topic. Okay. All right, back to
metabolic health. Okay, so how did you get into
this? You went to medical school, you were doing
diagnoses, treating with medication and therapy.
What cracked you open to some other avenues?
Rachel Brown (12:18):
Oh, it's really been my own health journey. So
I've, I've had, I do now wonder why I trained in
allopathic medicine, if I'm being perfectly
honest, because I've always had such an interest
in holistic health from a very young age. But it
was my own personal health journey of sugar
addiction, I think that ultimately got me into
(12:41):
the nutritional side of things and eventually
Paleo and then ketogenic diets and then quite a
number of years of actually using a carnivore
diet personally with multiple health benefits.
That's just one layer though. Before I got into
all the quantum and circadian stuff which just
added so much more to that, that nutritional
(13:01):
piece. But I also have a history of, it was
neurodegenerative disorders within close family
members that really motivated me to take a, a
proper look at my own personal health. And so I'd
been, I'd followed Mark Sisson and done a pr,
followed a primal diet for many, many years, but
(13:22):
was only, only kind of low carb, not necessarily
ketogenic. And it was after my dad died, coming
up for 10 years ago now that it really made me
take a look at what I was doing and I wanted to
really go ketogenic to capitalize on the anti
inflammatory benefits and the mitochondrial
benefits of that a ketogenic diet can provide.
And so that's really what get me, got me into all
(13:44):
of that. And, and then in 2021 I had the
opportunity to train formally with Dr. Georgia
Ead, who's an ex Harvard psychiatrist who's been
using nutritional strategies very successfully
amongst a whole host of different mental health
diagnoses for at least the past 15, possibly more
(14:06):
years. And that really formalized it for me and
that gave me more confidence to actually
introduce it into my allopathic practice as
another strategy for people to be able to use.
Meredith Oke (14:19):
Yeah, that really makes sense. Like when you're,
when you're able to have a mentor and a structure
and someone in a community of, of people who are
in your same situation, they were psychiatrists,
now they're doing this, it makes it, I mean it's
really hard to Go out on a limb by yourself. So
good for you for finding that and working with
(14:39):
her. That's fantastic. And I'm really, I've. I'm
really interested in your description of
metabolic health as basically like the prevention
of type 2 diabetes. Like that is really simple. I
haven't heard it put that way, but it.
Rachel Brown (14:53):
Oh, really? Yeah, that's my. I've got quite a
simplistic way of thinking about.
Meredith Oke (14:57):
No, it's perfect because usually you try to
describe what it is, but it's. But it works just
as well to describe what it isn't, which is like
an absence of your body's inability to function.
Like metabolic health is basically just saying
like your physical health affects your mental
health, which really makes sense.
Rachel Brown (15:20):
I know it shouldn't really come as a surprise,
but I think the way I view it, part of the
problem within modern medicine is the fact that
we split the body up into different bodily
systems and silos of medical specialties. And
there's not a very holistic approach that gets
taken. And so often my training was just all
about, as I say, making diagnoses to follow drug
(15:43):
treatment protocols. And so it's really
refreshing to be able to view things more
holistically and from a different. Through a
different lens, essentially.
Meredith Oke (15:54):
Yes. And I think that's really the future. It's
funny, in business there's this saying, I forget
who said it, but business models are just a
process of bundling and unbundling, where it's
like you think of now streaming channels. We had
a few and then we have like hundreds of them. So
that was the unbundling and now they're getting
(16:14):
packaged back up together, which is like the
rebundling. And I feel like that applies to
science as well. And I, like, we're coming out of
an era where everything was hyper specialized and
separated from each other. And the real future of
health is to bring everything back together, like
overlaying psychiatry, psychiatric medicine, what
(16:38):
with regular medicine, with quantum physics, with
nutrition, and bringing all of these things back
together. How, how have you worked through that
as a, as a doctor and as a seeker?
Rachel Brown (16:55):
Oh, gosh, it's difficult. I'm not going to say
it's been easy because I think there's quite a
lack of education and understanding when it comes
to thinking about cellular health and ultimately
mitochondrial health, although hopefully that's
coming a bit more into the mainstream via the
(17:16):
nutritional research that's being done. And
colleagues such as Chris Palmer, for example, in
the book that he published about brain energy and
the role of mitochondrial health when it comes to
mental health disorders. But I do feel like
there's a real tension between how I'm expected
to practice within allopathic medicine and then
(17:37):
my knowledge of how the body works, looking at it
through different. A different lens, such as
quantum biology or circadian biology. And so I do
struggle with that to an extent still within
allopathic medicine. So as much as I enjoy
speaking about nutrition and other lifestyle
approaches to people, I'm aware that that's not
(18:00):
commonplace within mainstream medicine, and I
think it should be. Really?
Meredith Oke (18:05):
Yeah, I think we're getting there. I feel like
everything's kind of imploding right now and
we're going to get to put it back together in a
new, pick up the pieces and build something new.
And so you've addressed this by kind of having
two separate businesses almost. You have your job
working for the NHS and then you also work
(18:27):
online, separate from your psychiatrist
credential.
Rachel Brown (18:34):
Yeah. So I. I trained in functional medicine
probably around five years ago now, and when I
did that, that was really refreshing to me
because it started to explain why people were
having certain symptoms which I hadn't felt so
much that I had been explained during my
standardized, my standard medical training. And
(18:57):
in terms of my private work that I do, what I was
tending to see was people coming through where
they felt as though the system had failed them.
So they tried quite a number of different drugs
and they either hadn't worked or they'd ended up
with side effects such as type 2 diabetes from
some of the psychiatric medications, or just
(19:17):
other adverse effects from being on medication
too long term. And once we were sort of diving
under the hood to have a look at what was
actually going on with them, I can say fairly
reliably, since I've done the quantum and the
circadian biology training, that there's not a
single person I've ever spoken to in my private
practice, or the nhs for that matter, who is
(19:39):
doing the circadian stuff. Right. So there's so
much that can be done. But also when we were
doing investigations, which I don't tend to do a
huge amount of now, knowing what I know now, but
initially when I was doing investigations, what I
was finding was that people had major gut
inflammation, even in the absence of a clear
diagnosis, such as celiac or inflammatory bowel
(20:01):
disease. And it wasn't until we could sort out
their gut inflammation, you know, we had to sort
out the gut inflammation and the metabolic
dysfunction to be able to get the mental health
symptoms to improve and resolve. And I'VE had a
number of people with both inflammatory bowel
disease and major mental health health diagnoses,
where time and time again I've seen them relapse
(20:23):
both disorders at the same time. And so a huge
area of interest of mine is gut health and how
that relates to brain health or mental health as
well.
Meredith Oke (20:34):
How does it relate?
Rachel Brown (20:36):
Oh, hugely. So, gosh. The gut and the brain are
connected via the vagus nerve, so the whole
nervous system regulation and nervous system
piece comes into both mental health disorders and
autoimmune disorders. However, there's also
signaling that goes back and forth between the
(20:58):
two in terms of chemical and immune messenger
signaling between the gut and the brain. And
essentially, when you have leaky gut, you can end
up having leaky brain because the gut barrier and
the blood brain barrier are very similar in form
and function. And if you have dysbiosis, so
(21:18):
unfavorable populations of bacteria within the
gut, this can cause a leaky gut barrier, which
then in turn can cause a leaky blood brain
barrier and an activation of immune cells in the
brain and inflammation. And then this is when
mental health symptoms can arise and
neurotransmitter pathways can be dysregulated.
You know, if you want to go to that extreme
(21:40):
level. But I always come back to mitochondria
because there's crosstalk between the gut
microbiome and our mitochondria back and forth.
So there's so many different ways that you could
look at this, Right?
Meredith Oke (21:51):
Yes. And so if we think about it as healing the
mitochondria, we're healing everything, the gut
and the brain. Tell me what leaky brain symptoms
look like. What's leaky brain?
Rachel Brown (22:06):
It could be anything. So it could be brain fog,
poor concentration, it could be depression,
anxiety, even psychosis. So anything really,
that. That affects mental health. And, you know,
there's a clear subset of people, even with
depression, that we know they have raised
(22:26):
inflammatory markers and so you know that there's
fairly reliably inflammation going on there. But
just anything really is what I would say based on
what I've seen.
Meredith Oke (22:37):
Right. So leaky brain is sort of like the
precursor to any kind of. Of mental health
symptom that.
Rachel Brown (22:44):
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not. I think there's so
many environmental toxins that we're surrounded
by that it's just not a great idea if your
brain's protective mechanism isn't robust to try
and keep those out. And from a functional
medicine perspective, we tend to think along the
lines of the body tends to store toxins within
our fat. And the brains are fatty organs. And
(23:06):
there's plenty of research showing that among
certain groups of diagnoses, there can be issues
with heavy metals, other environmental toxins
that can increase the risk of having certain
mental health symptoms.
Meredith Oke (23:21):
It's really just incredible to me that we treat
all that, with the starting point being a pill. I
mean, I'm not against taking. Taking medication
if that's what's needed. But if you're talking.
If you have a patient who has leaky gut, leaky
brain, whose mitochondrial mitochondria is
(23:43):
dysfunctional, who's metabolically dysfunctional,
and the first. The first intervention is to go to
a medication like, of course it's going to cause
terrible side effects because the. The system
can't handle anything really well.
Rachel Brown (23:59):
Yeah, absolutely. And this is something I really
struggle with now because there's very clear
research, I think. Dr. Cynthia Culkin is a
researcher within psychiatry, and she has shown
really clearly that having insulin resistance, so
metabolic dysfunction, causes a leaky blood brain
(24:20):
barrier or blood brain barrier dysfunction, and
this increases the risk of having persistent
mental health symptoms that don't respond to
standard medications. And my struggle now is that
a lot of the medications I have to prescribe
within psychiatry actually increase the risk of
metabolic dysfunction, such as the risk of type 2
diabetes. And Dr. Culkin's research has been
(24:43):
incredibly informative because they were able to
show if they can reverse the insulin resistance
and people's symptoms can go into remission
again, even if they've been unwell for quite a.
Quite a long time, a number of years. So that's
something I really struggle with now. And just
try to. All I can really do is try to take
informed consent if I'm in a position where I
(25:03):
have to offer medication to somebody just to try
to explain whether they'd be interested in using
different approaches and to make sure that they
know the potential downsides to trials of
different drugs.
Meredith Oke (25:17):
Wow. Gosh. A little heartbreaking. Okay, let's
focus on the fun stuff, which is what? All the
things we could do that are fairly
straightforward and don't cost a lot of money and
don't require going to the NHS or whatever the
equivalent is in the country you live in. Okay,
so let's talk about. We've established that a
(25:40):
healthy gut and healthy brain are completely
connected. Let's talk about the gut microbiome
from a circadian perspective. So why is it so
important to have regulated circadian rhythms?
Why is that so important to our gut?
Rachel Brown (25:57):
Because our circadian rhythms control our gut
microbiome, essentially, and they're also
involved in controlling our gut barrier function.
And if we think about inflammation in the brain,
you want to build a really robust gut barrier
because you get into a situation where you're at
risk of developing autoimmune system symptoms if
(26:19):
your gut barrier is leaky or you have intestinal
permeability. And so if you don't have robust
circadian rhythms, then there's a high likelihood
you're going to have problems with either
intestinal permeability or dysbiosis in the gut.
And if you have dysbiosis, it's more likely you
have a leaky gut and, you know, vice versa. And
(26:40):
so it just becomes a very vicious cycle. And
sadly, what I see too often is that people tend
to be sleeping in, not seeing the key morning
light. Circadian rhythm dysfunctions, just, just
pervasive from what I can tell from speaking with
people and working with clients.
Meredith Oke (27:01):
Yeah, no, it's. Nobody paid. Nobody has good
circadian rhythm unless they do it on purpose. In
our current world, I think between the screens
and the light bulbs and putting on sunglasses
every time you leave the house, like, it's, you
know, I know people who have very active outdoor
lifestyles, but they wear sunglasses from the
minute, like walking the dog at, you know, at
(27:24):
seven in the morning, all the way on, all through
the day. And it's. So it's something that we have
to think about intentionally. Okay, so help me
understand. So, so pretend I'm someone who comes
to you. I'm. I'm very nutritionally aware, I eat
really well, but I'm still experiencing symptoms.
(27:44):
And you're telling me that, like, the light is
going to affect my gut. Like, how is, how is that
happening?
Rachel Brown (27:56):
So we have a master body clock in the brain and
then lots of peripheral body clocks, including in
the gut. And if you have robust circadian
rhythms, the two will be coordinated. So I often
explain it as a bit like an orchestra. So the
suprachiasmatic nucleus in the brain, the master
(28:17):
clocks, like the conductor, and you've got all
these other orchestra members elsewhere as the
peripheral clocks. And they should all be playing
in time and keeping rhythm. And if that's not
happening because you're getting the wrong light
signaling, it essentially descends into chaos at
a cellular level. And that we could equate to as
(28:39):
inflammation in a simplistic sort of way. And so
in order to build robust circadian rhythms,
people need to be getting, ideally sunrise and
then the UVA rise. That happens an Hour, an hour
and a half after that. And there are very clear
connections between, you know, like blue, blue
light getting your cortisol going to get you up
(29:02):
and running for the day, impacting on energy
levels, and then the UVA light being intimately
involved in all of the neurotransmitter pathways
and hormonal pathways and kickstarting all of
those biochemical pathways within the body. And
so if you're not getting that, those key times of
morning light, then chances are you're going to
have dysfunctional neurotransmitter pathways and
(29:25):
thyroid hormone and sex hormones and a
dysregulated stress hormone axis. So there's
quite a few pieces of the puzzle there.
Meredith Oke (29:36):
It's so amazing. I mean, obviously I talk about
this a lot, but every time I hear someone explain
it, I'm like, wow.
Rachel Brown (29:47):
It'S.
Meredith Oke (29:47):
We're so. Yeah, I just, it's. I'm like, wow. It's
like almost like I'm hearing for the first time
because we're just so disconnected from this
level of understanding. Right. Like, yeah, when.
Rachel Brown (30:02):
And then.
Meredith Oke (30:03):
Yeah, go ahead.
Rachel Brown (30:05):
Yeah. I was just gonna say my next bugbear would
be all the screens in the evenings and then
nobody sleeps very well. Who's not paying
attention to trying to mitigate the blue light
toxicity? And everyone's melatonin is suppressed
because they're on a screen in the evening. And
not mitigating the blue light that's going to
suppress your melatonin. And then people are
(30:27):
living indoor lives, so they're not getting the
benefit of full spectrum light from outside,
especially infrared, that's going to boost all of
our melatonin production all throughout the body,
within our mitochondria. And I think so many
people are just deficient in the key antioxidants
for good cellular health. I don't know. There's
(30:48):
just so many different. There's so many things we
could talk about. It's hard to pick one right key
area.
Meredith Oke (30:54):
But light. But light programs, all of it, is what
you're saying?
Rachel Brown (30:59):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because I, having
been through the quantum biology certification
and then board certification, light is upstream
to everything else in the body. So there's been
this myopic focus on biochemistry, which I
(31:19):
suppose suits the pharmaceutical industry in
terms of drug treatment protocols, but really
light sits upstream to all of our biochemical
processes, even in the body. And so the first
thing, the foundational thing we need to consider
is the environment we put our body in and the
light that we're exposed to, essentially for the
(31:40):
photoreceptors in our eyes, but also the
receptors on our skin. You know, it all matters.
Meredith Oke (31:46):
Right, so the quantum is upstream of the
biochemical of the chemical, obviously. So.
Rachel Brown (31:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Meredith Oke (31:56):
So when you talk about the. Have our gut having a
clock, that clock is supposed to sync with the
one in our brain which, which is programmed
through our eyes. So is there, are there clocks
in the gut that need direct light as well? Like
(32:17):
those photoreceptors? Are they like, should I be
putting my tummy in the sun?
Rachel Brown (32:23):
Yeah, yes, okay, absolutely, yes. So there's
really, really interesting research showing that
UVB light in particular can improve the diversity
of the microbiome and it's supportive, one might
argue, essential for optimal gut microbiome and
gut health. And. But you know, there are other
(32:45):
aspects like photobiomodulation, like using red
light therapy that can also be supportive because
it's supportive of mitochondrial function, but
also for cellular health and melatonin
production. And. But yeah, the full spectrum
light piece on your abdomen is absolutely
supportive of gut health. I would say fairly
(33:06):
essential to prioritize if you can. I don't
necessarily live in a very high UV index country.
So yeah, there's that.
Meredith Oke (33:16):
Right. But the, even the circadian aspect. Okay,
so, so say I'm. I'm a client, not in the NHS
side, in the side where you can do whatever you
want and I come and I tell you what I eat and it
all sounds good. Like my diet is pretty dialed
(33:37):
in. Okay, so what you're telling me is that like
if I change the timing, even if I don't change
what I eat, I just change the timing of when I
eat, that's going to have an effect and also the
timing of when I get light. Because I find this
(33:58):
so interesting that we like, is we all think,
like if you want to change, they got to change
the food. Change the food, like say the food is
whatever. It's amazing. It's 10 out of 10. Like
there's still things to do.
Rachel Brown (34:10):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Okay, you don't. So I like
people, so I don't want to dismiss fasting. I
think there can be lots of health benefits of
fasting, but I practice intermittent fasting for
quite some time and I used to skip breakfast and
then I ended up tanking my hormones as a female.
(34:31):
And so I think there's nuance around who can do
lots of intensive fasting and who might need to
be a bit more careful that way. So I quite like
people to eat breakfast, if they can, in terms of
improving their Leptin signaling and giving the
body the signal that it's safe and you don't have
to be pumping out lots of cortisol. I really
(34:54):
don't like when people have coffee on an empty
stomach in the morning because they're probably
just going to be pumping out even more cortisol
and dysregulating the whole stress axis there.
But one really crucial piece is to not eat for
several hours before you go to bed. Because your
body's not meant to be digesting food overnight.
Your gut needs a break and it needs to be able to
(35:15):
rest and repair overnight. So you would be making
sure that you're blocking the artificial light so
that all of your circadian rhythms, your
biological clocks know what time of day it is.
And then they know their program to repair the
gut overnight. And there's a period of some
fasting overnight for your gut to be able to
renew and repair. So that's. That's all really
(35:37):
important.
Meredith Oke (35:39):
Right. Yeah. I remember, like, sort of on my
journey, we started regulating our circadian
rhythms and we actually, I mean, you don't have
to move to do this, obviously, but it just
happened to be at a time when we were moving
anyways. So we were living somewhere where it was
(36:00):
kind of. It was warm out most of the year, which
is really nice. But we started to do that and we
took. We started taking it really seriously. I'd
been doing it for a few years, but I just took it
like to a whole other level. And we had a lot. I
had a lot of improved health outcomes. And then.
(36:21):
So after, I don't know, like a month and months
and months of doing that, for some reason I
hadn't. I hadn't applied the timing of what we
ate. So we. We added that in and I just moved
dinner earlier. And like, the entire family lost
weight. It was during COVID so everyone had
gained weight because of. Was so messed up. But.
(36:43):
And every. The whole family lost weight. And all
I did was make dinner earlier. I didn't even
change what we were eating.
Rachel Brown (36:49):
Right. Yeah. Just shows you it was crazy. Yeah, I
am. Yeah, I just, I. Did your sleep improve when
you did that? Because I. Yes, I often. So we were
away seeing family recently and they tend to eat
later. And so to be sociable, we would go out for
dinner, but would be a couple of hours later than
I wouldn't usually finish eating. And then I just
(37:11):
know I didn't sleep as well. And then my aura
ring was telling me your heart rate was higher
overnight. Try not have. Try to not have a meal
too close to bed. You know all this stuff. I know
already, but yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
Meredith Oke (37:26):
Yes. No, totally. If I eat too late, I will wake
up in the middle of the night with an elevated
heart rate. I'm like, oh, I just finished
digesting.
Rachel Brown (37:35):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (37:36):
Like I. And it, it feels a little bit like I
don't drink anymore, but it does feel a little
bit like being hungover and it's just okay. I
feel like, I feel like such a hot house flower,
but I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm a little
hungover. I had, we were at a party a few weeks
ago and they had, they brought in like this thing
(37:59):
to make pizza over the fire so that instead of a
caterer, they had like this big wood fire oven
and they were making the pizzas and they started
serving them at like 8 o' clock at night. So
again, to be sociable, I had some and it was
delicious. But the next day my husband was like,
(38:23):
do you have allergies? Like, what's like. And I'm
like, I ate pizza at 9 o' clock at night. He's
like, oh, it was like I had a hangover.
Rachel Brown (38:35):
Yeah. Oh. I mean, I've become really antisocial,
as in, it's just not my thing anymore to go out
in the evenings and be in really like lit up
places, especially in the winter. You know, it
almost feels, once you've been practicing this
kind of lifestyle for a while, it almost feels
painful in a way to put yourself in some of those
situations. Yeah. Because you just see such a
(38:57):
contrast between when you're doing everything
right and then some of the occasions when you
have to deviate from what you would normally do
and then you can instantly sort of see the impact
of that.
Meredith Oke (39:12):
Yeah, I know, totally. And even so, when, I mean,
we don't. I don't go out at night very often for,
for those exact reasons. And every once in a
while I'm like, all right, let's be sociable. And
yeah, there's, there's a price to pay. But you
know, it's good to see people. So occasionally,
(39:32):
occasionally I'll do that. So let's talk about
grounding. Is that a piece that you've, that
you've added in and that you see benefit from in
terms of mental health as well?
Rachel Brown (39:50):
Yes. I can probably speak more personally because
I don't know who. I've got a few people, I don't
know how reliably they, they implement the
grounding but, yeah, that's something that I do.
And in fact, I just seem to do more and more and
more of it. And from a gut health perspective, I
(40:11):
found it particularly helpful to actually eat
meals grounded outside because of the nervous
system regulation that it gives you, kind of
pushing you more into the parasympathetic rest
and digest nervous system state. So I know from
some of the investigations I've done that
sympathetic dominance is an issue that I have,
(40:33):
but I often see it in clients as well,
particularly people with autoimmune disorders and
mental health disorders. So I think there's been
so much stress in the last five years, and
obviously, lives just tend to be fairly stressful
these days. A lot of people are really stuck in
that sympathetic dominant nervous system state,
and that makes it very difficult for your gut to
(40:55):
work optimally. So, yeah, I personally choose to
try and eat my meals grounded whenever I can, but
otherwise try and spend as much time outdoors and
in contact with nature.
Meredith Oke (41:07):
So when you say sympathetic dominant, you're
talking about being in a, like, more of a fight
or flight or more of a state of tension versus a
state of. Of rest and relaxation.
Rachel Brown (41:22):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (41:22):
Is that okay?
Rachel Brown (41:25):
And sorry, my dog's barking in the background.
Meredith Oke (41:29):
That's fine. We like dogs. They take us outside.
So tell me how. Practicing circadian rhythm
regulation and grounding and earthing being
outside. So you're saying that that has an effect
(41:50):
on our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous
systems in addition to everything else we've been
talking about. Tell me more about that.
Rachel Brown (42:02):
Yeah. So there's research showing that you can
improve if you want to do measurements such as
heart rate variability, which would be a
measurement to an extent of how much time your
nervous system is spent in the sympathetic
dominant state versus parasympathetic. You can
see that there are improvements in heart rate
variability with more grounding. But people have
(42:24):
also done imaging studies showing systemic
reduction of inflammation throughout the body by
practicing grounding. And then from a quantum
biology perspective, I suppose we might be
thinking of it in terms of pulling in electrons
into our body to build up redox potential. And.
And. Oh, gosh, I don't feel quite like Carrie in
(42:48):
terms of being able to discuss easy water, but
that's a piece of the puzzle. Yeah, they're like,
optimizing, essentially, having good, good
cellular charge is what good health is about. And
so just put pulling in the essentially unlimited
supply of electrons from the Earth's surface
through your skin and into your body is
absolutely supportive of good health.
Meredith Oke (43:11):
Right. And because I've heard, I heard you say a
few times, like, doing this helps you feel safe.
Like eating breakfast, putting your body in the
light it's supposed to be in and the environment
it's meant to be in. These are bringing in, like,
actual feelings of safety because our body is
(43:31):
experiencing what it's supposed to experience or
how it, how should we unpack that?
Rachel Brown (43:43):
I just, I just think of it as trying to balance
your nervous system response. So particularly the
grounding and spending time outdoors. I mean,
there's so many benefits to being in nature and
green spaces in terms of negative ions. There's
all sorts of stuff you could talk about, but
(44:04):
essentially it's just shifting so that your
nervous system response is more balanced and more
in the rest and digest and the safe sort of phase
as opposed to being activated all the time and
stressed and lots of cortisol. And I just think
too many people are stuck in that state, myself,
myself included. So I always make as much
(44:27):
concerted effort as possible to do things to try
and regulate nervous system response. And I see
that that really is an essential piece of the
puzzle for clients to try and overcome chronic
symptoms of any kind, really. Because I sometimes
think about, you know, like, our thoughts have
frequency, if you think about it from a quantum
(44:49):
biology perspective. And fear is one of the
lowest frequency states to be in. And often fear
goes hand in hand with sympathetic nervous system
activation. And so just anything you can do to
support your body, to be in more of a relaxed
state, you. You need to be in more of a relaxed
(45:10):
state to be able to heal and for the body to be
able to do what it, what it does best, which is
heal. When you give it the right set of
conditions and circumstances. Does that make
sense?
Meredith Oke (45:20):
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think, I
think, yeah. I mean, I really resonate with what
you're saying that we're stuck in
parasympathetic, which is the more stressed out.
Sorry, sympathetic. Which is the more stressed
out when. And we want to spend more time in
parasympathetic, but we don't even realize it.
(45:41):
Like, I, I do think that's so true. Most people,
men and women, it might show up differently, but
we are living in that. And I notice it, I notice
it when I get startled. Like if, if, if someone,
you know, walks in the room and I didn't realize
they were there. I didn't realize someone was
(46:03):
home. And like, all of a sudden there's someone
like, like that. And if I'm, if I'm in a relaxed
state, I'M like a little bit startled. And if
I'm, but if I'm in that sympathetic state, I
literally feel like I'm having a heart attack for
a second. Like I'm, and I, and I. It makes me
realize like, oh, I was, I was already right at
(46:24):
the line. Like my startle reflex had to go into
overdrive. And it's just those little moments
where I'm like, oh, I need to maybe go meditate
or something. Go meditate outside or something.
How do you, how do you experience personally and
through, you know, what you've experienced, seen
with, with patients and clients? What does it
(46:45):
feel like and look like to be stuck in, in, let's
say, sympathetic overdrive?
Rachel Brown (46:53):
Do you know, for me personally, I didn't even
realize that I was in a sympathetic nervous
system dominant state. So I, well, in retrospect,
so it's a hard one to, to really pinpoint. So, so
I think a lot of people are stuck in that and
they don't realize it. And I was one of those
(47:14):
people. So I was aware that sometimes I would
feel stressed or unhappy for particular reasons.
But I ended up doing some hair tissue mineral
analysis that showed quite clearly where I was in
terms of my sympathetic nervous system response.
And then having that information kind of made me
(47:36):
reflect more, I think about how I was feeling in
my body and internally and, and then I've done a
few other things since, you know, like practices.
And I just noticed that you can have such
benefits from just simple practices such as
grounding. I went through a period of time doing
some cold plunging. I haven't done that for a
while now. But I, I, yeah, that was fairly
(47:59):
addictive at the time when I started it last year
and other, you know, other therapies, you know,
like even sound therapy. I'm a huge proponent
actually of sound therapy and the impact that can
have on your nervous system as well. So I'm
probably rambling at this point, but there's, it
didn't, it wasn't very obvious to me as the take
(48:21):
home message that I was stuck in that, that
state, if I'm being honest.
Meredith Oke (48:25):
Yeah, no, that's what I think is super. So
interesting that we're talking about this is
because it's not necessarily like you're in a
panic attack all the time. You're just in, it's,
it's like a slightly elevated state, you know,
of, of like, I don't know, vigilance maybe, or
you're just sort of like, like that feeling like
(48:49):
the, okay, I'm here's how I would describe it for
how it feels for me. It's like the difference
between if I'm driving my car somewhere I've
driven a million times and I don't really need to
think about it, versus it's dark and I'm a bit
lost and I don't know where I'm going and my GPS
is broken and I'm driving, like, do I turn here,
do I turn there? Right. And I feel like a lot of
the time I'm living life in that kind of like in
(49:16):
that mode versus the other mode where I'm still
driving but I'm like in a totally relaxed. I'm
like. It's not like I'm not having to think about
it as it's not like clutching at me. That's how
it, that's how I would describe it.
Rachel Brown (49:33):
Yeah, that's a good description. I was just
thinking just to reflect on that probably years
ago, I remember when my dad was teaching me to
drive or there's somebody. I think it was my dad
and I remember him saying to me, you know, like,
are you, are you worried about something? And I
hadn't realized, but I was leaning forward in the
seat. And so something I tend to do if I'm a bit
on edge, like that would be not to sit back,
(49:54):
relax to in the driver's seat, but to be leaning
forward, on alert for, you know, like something
unexpected to be happening. So. Yeah, that's a
good, a good analogy.
Meredith Oke (50:05):
Yeah. So we get in there and then we get stuck
there. And so all of these practices that you're
recommending support us to feel safe because I
think that's part of it too. I'm, you know, now
that I'm thinking about it, it's like I maybe
even don't want to get out of the sympathetic
state because I might not do as good a job. I
(50:29):
might forget stuff. I might not be as on top of
things as I want to be. And I don't trust that I
can get it all done from the other mode.
Rachel Brown (50:42):
Okay. It's a bit of a fear based mindset.
Meredith Oke (50:46):
Yeah. I mean, it's not active all the time, but
it's, you know, I do think that that's part of
it. It's like, well, isn't it? You know, because
I'm looking around at everyone around me. I'm
like, yeah, we're mostly like in go, go, go mode.
Rachel Brown (51:01):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm somebody. I guess
people have different personality traits, don't
they? But I'm I'm somebody who can't. I get bored
so easily and so I always have to be doing
something. And so I think some people find it
easier to relax than other people. And so for
those of us who are a bit more driven, that type
(51:22):
of personality maybe need to put a bit more
effort into making a concerted effort to do
relaxing activities and make sure you are
actually, it's true.
Meredith Oke (51:34):
I remember, I think Irene Lyon always makes this
point that the people who most need to regulate
their nervous system don't do it because it's.
She's like, it's really boring.
Rachel Brown (51:48):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (51:48):
I'm like, it is really boring.
Rachel Brown (51:52):
Yeah, yeah. I'm guilty as charged.
Meredith Oke (51:55):
Same.
Rachel Brown (51:56):
Yeah, same.
Meredith Oke (51:58):
So, you know, it's all a work in progress and
yeah, you know, I'll get there. So from, from all
of your journeys, it's. Is there anything like,
are there, you know, like what thoughts do you
have that you know, maybe don't have published
studies to support them? They're just kind of, I
(52:20):
always like to know like what people think. You
mentioned earlier about our thoughts having a
frequency, our emotions having a frequency. If we
could just like, you know, go totally woo. I'm
not holding you to any of, you know, I'm not
going to be like, well, I don't know if that's
true. Like we don't care. We just like your
intuitive feeling of how you see things based on
(52:45):
all the, all your experience and all your studies.
Rachel Brown (52:51):
I think a big concern I have about the way
medicine is practiced is that it often induces
fear or a fear state in people. And I have
concerns that that in itself, itself can prevent
people from recovering. So I think mindset is
(53:11):
huge and the way we look at things and how we
think about things and I don't know that I can
quote any particular studies that reference.
There might be studies out there, I just haven't
seen them. But about which types of thought have,
are associated with what level, what frequency.
But I think for most people it would be easy
(53:33):
enough to, to be able to see that. Joy,
gratitude, those, those kind of thoughts are the
highest frequency and then there's a whole sort
of sliding scale all the way down to fear being
one of the lowest frequencies. And yeah, I mean I
can talk about lots of woo stuff. I don't know if
(53:54):
I want to, but I'm fascinated by and still
learning about things like biogeometry and our
biofield and bioresonance and our thoughts
absolutely come into all of that. For sure.
Meredith Oke (54:15):
I love it. Listen, this is a safe space. But I
understand since you still technically work for
the nhs, you maybe don't want to go there, but is
your, like, intuitive feeling that these are all
(54:36):
completely valid realms to explore?
Rachel Brown (54:40):
Yes, 100%. No. No wavering on that.
Meredith Oke (54:45):
Yes, love it. 100%.
Rachel Brown (54:51):
Yeah.
Meredith Oke (54:56):
So, just to wrap up, I just want to go back to
something I heard you and Kelly Ritter talking
about on her podcast, Quantum Mental Health. And
you said something that was interesting to me,
where somebody can. A patient can come to you and
their labs are all great, but you can just look
(55:17):
at them and be like, you are metabolically
unhealthy. And I want to talk about that because
that's been the experience that I had that
experience, and I know so many people did with
traditional medicine, where it's like, it's
almost become a meme now on the Internet,
there's. There was a meme I saw of people, like,
standing around a coffin at a funeral being like,
(55:37):
your labs are perfect. So I just want to talk
about that for a minute because, you know, you
understand that side of things so deeply with
your medical background. Talk to the person whose
labs who's getting that feedback from their
physician. Like, your labs are good. I don't
(55:59):
know. I guess you're just kind of tired, or I
guess you're just kind of, whatever, aging. And
how do you. If you are looking at somebody
setting the labs aside, like, how do you see
what's going on with them?
Rachel Brown (56:12):
Oh, I mean, I. I always automatically bring it
back to mitochondria. Mitochondrial health and
function. So, you know, there's really
interesting research talking about how people
present with symptoms when about 70% of their
mitochondria are dysfunctional. So I think it was
Dr. Douglas Wallace who published that research.
(56:33):
I've heard Carrie obviously speak about that. And
do, you know, even just coming from a nutritional
perspective. So the low carb community, for
example, we know that people who follow ketogenic
or carnivore diets won't necessarily have the
same lab ranges as the standard lab ranges. And
the standard lab ranges are pretty much on
(56:55):
average, done in a sick population, if that's not
too controversial. And I. Something I really
detest, and probably, if I'm honest, I've been
guilty of myself coming through the whole
allopathic training system is when people are
dismissed or even gaslit and being told that
(57:18):
something's all in their head, or there's no
evidence for their physical symptoms that they
have or mental health symptoms, I think it tends
to happen more with physical And I just always
think that my philosophy is that we are supposed
to be in good health as long as we are in the.
(57:38):
Putting our body in the right environment and
giving it the right exposures and nutrition. And
if you have a difficulty, it's a sign that there
is something deeper going on at a cellular level
that maybe isn't necessarily showing up in a
blood test because even just, you know, like
certain minerals are held within ourselves and
not necessarily reflected in blood tests. And so
(58:01):
if you're doing a drawing, a blood test, you
won't necessarily know what you're intracellular
mineral content or composition is like. And
there's so much nuance there and I think there's
so much that we don't know. And I, I personally
dislike the arrogance of modern medicine at
times. So I, I would never claim that I know
(58:22):
everything or that we understand absolutely
everything about how the body works, but I think
having a quantum biology perspective certainly
sheds a lot more light on things than, than just
going by standards tests. So I would always say
to people to, you know, get a second opinion or
(58:42):
just don't be afraid to try to think critically
yourself or research things yourself and don't
just automatically accept advice verbatim that
you're given. Just, you know, I think I always
encourage people to try to understand things
themselves if they can, if they're interested in
that, so that they can make the best decision
possible for their own health.
Meredith Oke (59:03):
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I think, yeah, we just
need to keep looking. There's always, there are
always more answers. And I know sometimes not
advocating to like be obsessive about it. I
certainly am not, as you can tell by my 8pm pizza
(59:23):
eating. But there is always, there's always more
like, there's just always another door to open.
Um, and they, they all layer on top of each
other. So I, you know, I love that you're sending
that message. And then you mentioned earlier,
you're like, I don't even know why I studied
medicine. And it's funny, I've, I've had so many
(59:44):
doctors say that they're like this, that wasn't
like. I've always felt drawn to the more
holistic, healing modalities. I don't know why I
went into medicine, but I feel like you were all
called to do that because we need the voices that
have both. So I appreciate you putting yourself
through that system because, you know, it just,
(01:00:07):
it gives you a different, a different perspective
and a, and a way to shift the paradigm that can't
happen just from Someone who, from someone who is
looking at it from the outside. So. Okay, I
think, I think you followed your soul's journey
and we all appreciate it.
Rachel Brown (01:00:26):
Yeah, I'll go with that. Hasn't been 20 odd years
wasted so.
Meredith Oke (01:00:33):
Not at all. Not at all. And you know I'm just
want to acknowledge you for having, having the
curiosity and the courage to look outside your
profession. It's not easy. So for people who
would like to work with you because you do have
an offer outside of, you know, being a
(01:00:54):
psychiatrist with nhs, how do, how do people find
you?
Rachel Brown (01:00:58):
Yep. So from a social media perspective,
Instagram is probably the best place to find me.
I'm most active there. Or I've got a website I
can get you to link. If people want to find out a
bit more about me and, and yeah.
Meredith Oke (01:01:15):
And you they can like book a session or book,
book a consult with you through your website.
Okay. And that is just tell me what the URL is.
Is it Dr. Rachel Brown?
Rachel Brown (01:01:26):
It's Dr. Rachel S. Brown dot com.
Meredith Oke (01:01:28):
Okay. Dr. Rachel S. Brown dotcom. We'll put the
link in the show notes but sometimes people just
listen when they're driving or whatever so I
always like to say it loudly. Dr. Dr. Rachel S.
Brown dot com. Okay, Rachel, thank you so much.
I'd love to do this again sometime. Feel like
(01:01:50):
we're just like this was like the warm up and.
Yeah. Any final thoughts you want to want to
share with the crew?
Rachel Brown (01:02:01):
Just, I just, I never want people to lose hope
even if they're in a seemingly dire situation
health wise because I think there's always more
that can be done as you say and you just have to
be questioning and willing to look for solutions.
So just want to bring a message of hope really
and healing because I think that's possible.
Meredith Oke (01:02:24):
Thank you. I love that. Thank you Rachel. See you
soon.
Rachel Brown (01:02:29):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Meredith Oke (01:02:37):
Sa.
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