March 25, 2024 • 37 mins
In a world where diversity is celebrated but often misunderstood, and where inclusion is strived for yet sometimes falls short, it’s time to bridge the gap between intention and action through social learning.
Join the Your ID team as they learn from expert Tonya Tucker Collins on how we can use our socialized experiences to shift narratives in conversations surrounding DEIB initiatives in the workplace
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Special Guest
Tonya Tucker Collins, Global Head of DEIB at Zscaler
Tonya Tucker Collins is an executive leader with extensive experience in driving employee experience, organizational development, and DEIB initiatives. Tonya is passionate about fostering individual growth and creating opportunities that empower employees to realize their full potential. Her mantra, "Your past is not your potential," underscores her belief in the boundless capacity for personal and professional development.
Tonya's HR journey began when she discovered her passion for organizational development and Industrial Psychology. Known for aligning people strategy with business goals, Tonya has made impactful contributions to various industries, including retail, energy, healthcare, insurance, and technology, at companies such as Safeway, PG&E, Kaiser Permanente, and AAA. At Twitch, Tonya was the VP of Employee Experience, Talent Development, Talent Management, and DEIB. Tonya designed interventions that positively impact organizational culture, employee experience, and DEIB.
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Diego Diaz, Jr. Digital Designer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
in a world where diversity iscelebrated, but often misunderstood,
and where inclusion is strived for,yet sometimes falls short, it's time
to bridge the gap between intentionand action through social learning.
Hi labmates, welcome to theSocial Learning Lab, a podclass
about social learning at work.
This episode is all about diversity,equity, inclusion, and belonging,
so join us as we discuss with expertTonya Tucker Collins about how we've
(00:24):
been socialized, and how we can shareour experiences to shift perspectives
to improve workplace culture.
Before we dive in, we want to remindyou that I Can Ducking Write, the
ultimate writing intensive for IDswho want to unblock clarity and
creativity and be recognized fortheir excellence, is kicking off.
We're running our first cohort in April.
Hope you waddle over and join us.
(00:46):
Sign up at bit.ly/Icanduckingwrite.
Hi, lab mates.
Welcome to another episodeof the Social Learning Lab.
I'm Diego, your Junior Digital Designerhere at Your Instructional Designer;
and I'm here with my other co host.
I'm Katie.
I'm an Instructional Designer hereat Your Instructional Designer.
And, we have a very specialguest here with us today.
(01:07):
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasegive a warm round of applause
for Tonya Tucker Collins.
Tonya is the global head ofDiversity, Equity, Inclusion,
and Belonging at Zasklar.
She is an executive leader withextensive experience in driving
employee experience, organizationaldevelopment, and DEIB initiatives.
Tonya is passionate about fosteringindividual growth and creating
(01:27):
opportunities that empower employeesto realize their full potential.
Her mantra, "Your Past is not YourPotential," underscores her belief
in the boundless capacity for
personal and
professional development.
Known for aligning people's strategywith business goals, Tonya has made
impactful contributions to variousindustries including retail, energy,
health care, insurance, and technology.
(01:48):
At companies such as Safeway, PG&E, Kaiser Permanente, and AAA.
At Twitch, Tonya was a VP of EmployeeExperience, Talent Development,
Talent Management, and DEIB.
Tonya designs interventions thatpositively impact organizational
culture, employee experience, and DEIB.
So we are so excited tohave you here, Tonya.
(02:08):
Welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be here and gladto be in conversation about
this topic with you both today.
Yes, of course.
So, just to start, we just want to getyour definition of how do you define DEIB?
So, a lot of times the focustends to center around the D.
So let's, let's start there.
Of course, it's beginning of the acronymor the way we've been placed it together.
(02:33):
And, I would, I would even challengeeveryone to sometimes think about what's
appropriate when you're defining it.
I know when I defined it at Twitch,I actually led with inclusion.
At Zscaler, we have decided to leadwith diversity, which is really focused
on around how do we get the right mix.
So, for instance, Ialways start with myself.
I, stepping into this space with everybodytoday, everyone will automatically
(02:57):
probably go, Oh, African American woman.
Actually Africa, African indigenous woman.
So, also a member of theWinnebago tribe or the Ho-Chunk
tribe that is located in, Omaha.
In addition to that, I'm a mother.
In addition to that, so allthose elements that make up me.
I'm also dyslexic.
I'm also a professional, but an executive.
(03:19):
All of those things.
I have all these facets of identity, and,at the same time, some of them change.
So, for instance, when I steppedinto this space, I presented as one
thing, I gave you a little bit moreinformation and now I probably present
as multiple things to multiple people.
And, that's to me, the definitionof diversity is, is that, hey, what
are those things that are visibleand sometimes non-visible, because
(03:42):
sometimes we don't think about theimportance of those things relative.
Again, being dyslexic, you don'tsee that when I step into a room.
So, that to me is thatdefinition of diversity.
And sometimes, we over index in thisspace about it being about, "Oh,
you're black, you're white, you'reLatinx, you're this, you're that".
And I say, "Well, actually, no, ifyou really start to think about it.
(04:03):
Diversity, not only is maybe what you'representing us today, but it also changes".
I say it's that one phone call thatyou can get tomorrow that someone
says, "Congratulations, you'reabout to adopt your first child".
Diversity for you just changed.
The next is really around thenext definition, which is equity.
And, I'm not talking about the quality,and where I centered this is around, and
(04:26):
if anyone has ever heard me before, hateto use the same example, but to me, it's
the best one that is available to me.
It's this idea that I can withequality give everybody a bike because
maybe that is the requirement toshow up and be at this company's
everybody has to ride a bike.
Alright, that's great.
However, if I am an amputee and yougive me the same bike as my peer on this
(04:50):
side, even though you gave us a bike,I'm not going to be able to use it.
So, that means that myrecognizing what you need.
If you're a very tall individual and I'msure anyone who's extremely tall struggles
with this, if you get the average bike,it doesn't work for you very well, meaning
you can use it, but it's normally goingto take a lot more energy effort as well
(05:12):
as at the end of the day, you're probablygoing to be hurting a little bit more than
your peers who have the same bike as you.
So great, we gave you the same bike, butif it doesn't meet you where you are, and
if we also with that don't have the rightprocesses and systems in place to allow
you as an employee, when you're steppinginto the environment to select the bike
(05:32):
that you need, then we've got a miss.
But not only that, if we also aren'trecognizing that sometimes it's not easy
for you to find the bike that you need,or maybe that bike is going to change,
then we're going to miss it aroundreally what I consider to be equity.
And, equity to me is not just about, Hey,we pass out bikes at the beginning or
the end, but it's also recognizing whoneeds what, when, and why does it have
(05:55):
to be different for that individual?
And, do we all understand that?
Which that goes into inclusion, whichalso says, Hey, we have an inclusive
environment that we're also cognizant.
So, I'll kind of go back to the ideathat, hey, some disabilities are
visible, and some are invisible.
A very simple one is sometimes havinga sharps container in the bathroom.
(06:19):
We take for granted when we go to thebathroom that there's certain things
that are going to be there becausewe all need those things, right?
Especially COVID, you need tobe able to wash your hands.
It was assumed, hey, thisis what I need to use.
However, we don't take into accountthat sometimes other individuals need
other things in the bathroom thatshould be there like a sharps container.
(06:39):
So, if I basically have a programthat I need to be able to use needles
because my doctor has prescribed it.
Now imagine what that's like forme when I'm in the bathroom and I
just want to get some, get rid ofthe needle that's a part of my life.
And, I look around and I go,there's nothing here for me to use.
And in that moment I am, thisis not an inclusive experience.
(07:03):
And it's that simple.
And sometimes we're forgetting about,Hey, we're thinking about all of
these other things or things thatwe just take for granted that are a
part or built into our society thateven we get to take advantage of.
That, hey, they weren't really madefor me, but at the same time I get
the benefit of it and that's tome where we get to that inclusive.
(07:24):
So, not just that we have a culture that'sbuilt upon psychological safety where
everyone can use their voices, but alsoin addition to that, that we've designed
it such that it is inclusive to allthose experiences and the changes that
are a part of life, because ultimatelythat's how you get to belonging.
Belonging is great when it's sustainable;and what I mean by that is, is that there
(07:48):
are points in times in a culture where youcan be perceived as too old or too young.
We're all going to experienceat a certain point.
And if you've ever stepped into anenvironment or some, or an experience
and you go, Ooh, this wasn't designedwith me in intention, I'm either too
old for this or too young for this,but now let's take it to the workplace.
So imagine now you're an employeethat's been there for five, six, seven,
(08:12):
whatever, remaining years and you realizeeither I'm too young or too old or
you don't belong and you know it; andthe environment and all the signals of
that environment are telling you that.
But, now, imagine a culture whereno matter what the age or what
changes for you relative to yourlife, you got that phone call again.
I still belong, but, more importantly,I can show up as my authentic self.
(08:36):
And, maybe, even that changesover time as I grow and evolve,
and I'm not dinged for it.
That's great.
And I totally agree with you that, youknow, Each one follows each other like
they all have to work together in orderfor this like culture to be established
and there's to be growth that happens.
So, you know, kind of, looking at itfrom a workplace standpoint, you know,
(08:56):
how would you go about this and tryingto make it a social learning experience
to help these, you know, contributionsinto this kind of atmosphere?
So, I've been really thinking aboutthis and I want to thank you for
even us having the conversation,because it got me to think deeper.
And sometimes, that's whenyou really think about it.
Social learning is in fact that.
It's, you asked me a question and Ihadn't thought about it in the context
(09:20):
of, wait, wait a minute, but at thesame time, I use it so much in terms
of when we're trying to summon it.
I'm actually I approach it fromtwo sides that I think we have to
think about it in the workplace.
One is the fact that we are, there'sa concept that actually we use in
diversity, equity, inclusion work, whichis around socialization; and that is
(09:40):
the concept that we all come into theseenvironments, but I've been socialized.
And so, what I'd like everybody todo is take a moment and think about,
hey, well, what got me to the pointof where I'm starting this job?
Maybe it was through, what I saw, meaningI think about myself recently reflecting
on women's history day, and I saw womenin my family graduating with Masters.
(10:03):
So, for me, in my head, it is verymuch a part of who I am and how I
show up, but not everybody sees that.
So, if we don't even recognize from asocialization point, the points of where
all of our employees are showing up withdifferent points of socialization, I
can't even offer sometimes forgivenessto someone, so maybe that's all you saw.
(10:27):
So, your response to me as a blackwoman in this particular space,
because that's all you saw is,kind of, like when you think about
the images you see and everything.
I can remember someone sayingto me once, you must've grown
up with a very hard life.
And I'm thinking to myself,why would you think that?
But realizing that, hey, that'show you were socialized to
(10:49):
think about my experience.
Not understanding that for me,every woman for the last almost
three generations in my family hasgraduated at the master's level.
But understandably,that's what you thought.
So, now, that you meet me, how do Ibegin to change through community and
questioning and conversation your, yourability to see what's possible or what is.
(11:11):
So, I think we have to look at oneside of it, which is asking ourselves,
how are individuals socialized beforethey show up in these environments?
And then, ask ourselves the nextquestion of how do we begin to
change that through social learning?
So again, it goes back to when Ithink about in the work environment,
sometimes we give feedback, "well, youknow, they just didn't interview well.
(11:33):
Okay.
Well, it's safe to say that there are someindividuals that have experiences where
they go through school and not only arethey doing intern, you know, they're doing
job interviewing or internships as soonas like 16 or maybe even 13, honestly.
And so, they got more interview practice.
They got more opportunities to be onthe country club and talk with people
(11:53):
and intergage in very interesting ways;and that's what they were socialized to.
But, it's also me recognizing, so goingback to that equity equation, that
not everybody has those experiences.
So what can we do from an employmentexperience that actually says, "hey,
maybe we need to hold some bootcamps, or maybe we need to unpack the
cheat codes for others who didn't getthat same experience and exposures".
(12:17):
So, do we offer and work inpartnership with our ERGs to host a
session and say everybody is invited?
We don't care, even though we might be theblack ERG, we're going to actually help
this and that's employee resource groups.
We're going to host this event foreverybody and we're going to unpack
the cheat codes relative to what ourinterviewing process looks like; and
(12:38):
more importantly, also have some practicetime so that you get that; and then,
also wait, here's an opportunity for youto expand and build upon your network.
So, maybe this isn't the job foryou, but hey, now you've got an
informal mentor, or you have someonethat can help you to navigate the
landscape to get to your next.
That to me is what I think companies canbegin to do really around social learning.
(13:03):
So one, it's, it's, I took the time torecognize, hey, if 80 percent of you
are coming in via referrals, you'recoming in with those informal networks,
but that is not the experience whenyou're going to be the only woman,
the only black employee, the onlyneurodiverse employee that's stepping
into an organization for a first time.
So, how do we begin to build thosethings more informally or formally.
(13:26):
Actually, I'll say formally so thatit's just a part of our process and not
only in how we're attracting talent,but ultimately also how we want to
build ourselves as an employee brandthat really is representative of the
communities that we're a part of.
It really sounds like, yeah, likestories and examples, just listening to
what you've said so far are important.
If that's correct, and like kind oftelling these examples, like it stood
(13:49):
out to me, your examples of likehow identities can change over time.
So, I'm just curious, yeah, likeyour, how you think of stories and
anecdotes and examples in, in this.
Stories are critical.
Stories can shift thinking.
It's again, that minute that I sitin front of a group and I share, Oh,
no, I'm third generation college;and every woman in my family
(14:10):
has essentially gone to college.
It's then someone goes, "oh, but Ithought college was new for black people".
No, not, not all, and not to say thatthere still aren't opportunities, but
that begins to shift the thinking.
Or it's, or it can even be thispowerful, imagine there's an executive
that's like, you know what, we reallystruggled to find, you know, talented
(14:31):
woman, or we struggled to find X or Y.
That's the story that'splaying in their head.
So if we ask ourselves now, imaginethis, we send that individual to
any of the organizations that areputting on events, be it Grace Hopper.
So now, imagine that executivegoing in and is surrounded by the
phenomenalness of women and they'retelling their stories, but not only
(14:53):
that, he's seen the opportunitiesof talent that meet his needs as an
organization, then, and also now, hehas that opportunity to build community.
It fundamentally then shifts his story.
It shifts his expectation and itshifts again, going back to that,
he was socialized to think this iswhat was possible and available; and
then, you get in a room with thousandsof women and you go, "oh wait, that
(15:15):
narrative no longer serves itself.
I'm motivated actually to think alittle bit differently, but I think
also with that now we have to havean environment that comes back
and further reinforces that; andthat's sometimes where we miss it.
It's like, you can have this greatexperience, but then if somebody comes
back to an environment that tellsthem a different story, that says, oh
(15:35):
no, we really don't want that here.
Well, that kind of just, that tookaway all everything else, because,
now that narrative, it is shifted tosomething that's totally different.
It's the same way, one of thethings that I tend to not do
when it comes to heritage month.
For instance, I try to look forindividuals who are part of the industry,
(15:55):
meaning I want to showcase women.
I want to show.
So, if it's like right now we're in,depends on when this goes out, but
right now we're in March, which isfocused on women's history month.
Well, if I'm a part of, let's justsay healthcare, let's focus on pulling
forward narratives of individuals whohave impacted healthcare, that basically
(16:15):
you say today don't exist, because itdemonstrates that that story is very
different than when we see, but if we'renot sharing those stories or even bringing
those voices into conversation with us,then we're missing out on their stories.
I totally agree with you.
It's actually one of the things I do hereon my campus is I'm part of our Student
Athletic Advisory Committee; and thatwas the one thing when I took over the
(16:36):
social media account and, you know, tookover that role was how do we share these
stories because each individual comes withso much diversity and there's so much,
like you said, there's so many identitiesthat go into that one person; and when
we came in, you know, I felt like a lotof people just didn't know each other;
and I said, "we have to share the life ofthese people and give them their voice,
because your voice holds power, and ifyou don't show that power, you know,
(16:58):
you're just another student athlete; butif you show that you have power within
your voice and you can use it to inspireothers, then we're doing something
right and we're building a communityand actually it's been so true is that
we've built this community now whereeverybody's like now knows each other.
They're like, you know, they foundout stuff that they didn't know
about others and it's like built thislike strong community within our own
organization to be like, you know,how do we keep sharing these voices?
(17:18):
How do we support each other and howcan we work towards getting better
as a whole athletic department?
So, you know, I do agree with youthat those stories are so impactful
and, you know, giving power to voicesin those months really shows, you
know, people that everybody's valuedno matter where they come from.
Yes.
So, I kind of want to go back tosomething that you just mentioned and it
was about the conflicts and everything.
(17:40):
So, in the instance that a conflict doesarise from like, you know, the narrative
is being shifted and everything, howwould you address potential conflicts
or misunderstandings that arise in adiverse social learning environment?
So one, I think we have to be veryintentional about the design of
whatever we're going to design.
It's kind of going back to thelearning and development side.
(18:00):
Are we aware of what are going tobe the constraints when that person
comes back to that environment?
So meaning, there, there's sometimesthis like, oh, we're going to do this
or we're going to do this; and we forgetthat America or even the globe in itself
is made up of states that have differentlaws, have different cultures within them.
(18:21):
So, it's very easy for me.
I always say, "hey, it's easy for us".
I'm, our corporate headquartersare located in the Bay area or
California- and, and in particularNorthern California, which is very
different than Southern California.
So, I've got to begin to recognize, hey,when I do something, let's just say, in
Mahali, which is in, you know, in India.
It is going to look verydifferent than, than what is here.
(18:44):
And, the conflicts that aregoing to be in both of those
two places are day and night.
So, if I have one design that just takesinto account what is here in California,
this is our expectation and doesn'ttake into account those other things,
then it basically makes it so that thisisn't something that people can learn
about, that they are going to embracebecause the environment is going to send
(19:07):
different feedback to them; and that'sa part of the thing that I think we
have to be really, really intentionalabout is what are our leaders saying?
Like, do we even have in placethe right leaders that are
going to actively reinforce it?
I, even, think about, well, what are theconversations the leader is having before
the training or whatever the event is?
And what are the conversationsthat are taking place after?
(19:28):
If there's not good leadership inplace, so let's, let's kind of go there.
Let's just say that we're tryingto shift the culture and we got
this tension between what was andwhat is, and all these things and
not really good understanding.
I would ask, are we creatingcohorts of individuals together
where they can support one anotherand have strong dialogue in a safe
space and understand like, hey,we are shifting the expectation.
(19:53):
What are the values of that organization?
Can we tie it to those values?
And more importantly, in the performancemanage measurements, so meaning, if,
if one of your values is not thentied to your performance management
processes, so meaning this goesback to kind of the what and how.
Great, you achieved excellent sales,you know, most sales organizations,
(20:14):
that's what they want; and that'sa part of the culture, and we got
to understand that, but you area really evil person in doing it.
If that's, and you still get thesame reward, we've essentially said
that what we're saying is a culturedoesn't matter as much as the sales.
And so, now the question becomes, canwe add those real values that we're
(20:35):
saying must be a part of our cultureto that and hold people accountable
in those systems and processes?
Because then that's when it getsback to the feedback that everybody's
really getting; and the real internallate internalization of like, what
is our culture really look like?
And so, those are just some of thethings I think we have to think
about in, and when we're creating thedesign, where is the organization?
(20:55):
Where are they ready?
It's recognizing that if I was in SouthernCalifornia in a certain, in certain areas,
even though it's California in the US, Iwould approach the work very differently.
If I was in Texas or Florida, I wouldapproach this work extremely differently,
even to saying like, let's use pronouns.
If I was in Texas and Florida, Iwould probably be saying to someone,
(21:15):
I don't think you really want to dothat there, because there's not that
safety net around folks to reallybe able to do this effectively.
So, it's recognizing those nuances becausewithout that recognition, diversity,
inclusion, and belonging work will notbe embedded and woven into the culture;
and that's really what we want to get to.
If you keep it to surface level,honestly, the naysay or the not
(21:40):
do will become bigger than, hey,wait, why don't we have flex time?
Why don't we have a culturewhere everybody can speak up?
Why does everybody have to assimilateto this in order to be successful?
And more importantly, your customersaren't going to be looking in and going,
hey, the experience that I get over hereis very different than the experience I
(22:01):
get over here, so it's not consistent.
So, hey, and it's not really what I want.
You guys aren't really livingwhat you're saying you are.
And so, therefore, I'm goingto bow out of this experience.
Yeah, and I totally agree with that.
That, you know, that's, it comesdown to the leadership and like,
like you said, recognition of, youknow, where you're at and how you're
going to handle these situations.
So, I guess, kind of, my thing would be,so let's say there is a leader who's,
(22:24):
you know, noticing that these are someissues that they're struggling with.
How as a leader would you approach it?
Like, do you go to your team orhow would you like, you know, try
to help create that culture thatis a safety net where people can
feel open to voice their opinions?
It's definitely, if you're seeingit as a leader, first, taking the
opportunity to really truly demonstratewhat it is that you're doing.
(22:45):
And, I mean, by your words, by youractions, even sometimes it's good
as a leader to say, you know what?
I used to do X and I'm realizingthat that didn't work or that model
of leadership didn't work for me.
And so, I'm going to be spending the nextcouple of months or this time, and I'm
going to be focused on transitioning.
So, it's that moment of vulnerability.
(23:06):
However, let's be honest, weas team members are waiting
to see, is that really you?
Are you really going to do it?
Like we're, we're waiting.
So, this is where observationbecomes critical in this, and
it's like, we're observing.
So, we want to actually see if you'regoing to do it and it's where you're going
to have to step up in your leadershipand actually begin to demonstrate it.
(23:26):
So, it's that moment where maybesomeone has clued you into that,
hey, sometimes, when you're talkingto women, you tend to mansplain,
and it shuts down the conversation.
Or maybe it's, maybe someone called outsome other behavior and you take the
time to say, you know what, I'm going towork on the fact that I'm mansplaining.
I know I do it and I'm going toask you all to kind of help me with
(23:49):
that; and it's not to, it's likewhen I start to go down that path.
Just is, is there a word we're going touse, whatever it's going to be, but I'm
actually going to be very intentionaland thoughtful in partnership with you.
I'm not saying that I'm just goingto automatically turn this off,
but also that demonstrates toeverybody, hey, we can try new things.
We can try new things together, and we cantry new things and you can bring things to
(24:13):
me, and you can offer me feedback, and I'mwilling to adjust my behaviors, but I'm
willing to do it in partnership with you.
I think that is something a leader can do.
In order to expand their reach even more,I would say, is there opportunity for
you to bring your team members togetherin order to have more discussions
(24:33):
and dialogues about these things?
I think it's important in this timewhere, you know, we're still trying to
get that work from home right; and whatI'm finding is, is that a lot of times
we're just not having conversations.
We're not putting the things thatare making it difficult or hard
out into the space; and we're notkeeping our commitments and honoring
them; and no one's calling it outbecause we don't really know how,
(24:55):
meaning for instance, there may bedays where you say everybody's got
to come in on Tuesday and Thursday.
Well, that means thateverybody's commuting.
Why are we having eight o'clock meetings?
It's recognizing that everybody needsprobably a little bit more flexibility.
But at the same time, everybody's kind oftrying to make it work and it's making it
harder for everybody as opposed to saying,hey, this is what we're going to do.
(25:16):
And that's also to when that leadersays, "hey, Tonya, I noticed you
scheduled an eight o'clock meeting.
I really want, you know, with the workfrom home, I would prefer those meetings
to be on Monday, Wednesday, Friday atthat, if we're going to have something
that early; or if we're having somethingat 6 am with our counterparts, because
we need to pull everybody together.
Do it at those times because that giveseverybody more flexibility than trying
(25:38):
to do it in the peak commute timeof everybody trying to get to work".
Not saying anything aboutit actually makes it worse.
Definitely.
Yeah, and I think, you know, likeyou said, that open dialogue is
so important in the workspace, andjust having those conversations with
people; and, you know, it can be hardto like take in at times hearing it.
You don't always want to hear thenegative, but sometimes you have to
(26:00):
hear the negative to make a changewithin yourself and within your
organization to put out the resultsthat you want; and the, you know,
culture that you want within youremployees and your, you know, workspace.
And, I think culture is such a bigthing that can make or break a business.
And, I think by recognizing it as aleader, you can really change that and
create that community that you want; andI think it's going to be more productive.
(26:21):
So, speaking of productivity, youknow, how do you assess the impact
of social learning initiatives onthe diversity, equity, inclusion, and
belonging within the organization?
Are there like any specific metrics thatyou evaluate or how do you go about it?
So, probably the biggest one.
So, there's a couple that I thinkwe can use and actually really hone
in on, I'm going to say hone in.
(26:42):
One is around what isour onboarding look like?
Because that to me iswhere it is going to start.
How effective have we onboarded?
Have we given individualsaccess to buddies?
Have we built cohorts intoour new employee experience?
So essentially, if we start to see higherscores relative to that effectiveness
on onboarding or individuals who areonboarding faster, so meaning, our
(27:05):
expectation as a culture is that,"hey, it's going to take you," and when
I say onboarding, it's not just theinformation that you get in Neo, but
it's how you navigate some of thoseinformal and formal things like we
use Slack, we use Google, we do this.
And, it's those informal relationshipsof being able to do that and be
able to move effectively through theprocesses and systems that are just
(27:26):
in part that are part of the company.
How effective is that?
Does it take on averageeverybody 120 days to do that?
But by putting in place today, systemsaround having the good buddy in place,
having really good structure arounda 30, 60, 90 day onboarding plan that
is intentional in partnership withthe manager and the connections that
(27:49):
a person needs to make as they areonboarding critical to their role,
as well as those that they need tokind of see the full work stream.
In addition to that, do we buildthose cohorts in that kind of supports
you really for that next year?
I'm not talking about justthe first 90 days, but we're
talking about the first year.
And so, as a result, do we seeless misfires relative to hiring?
(28:10):
So, what I mean by that specifically is,do we have high, you know, do we have
high exits after a year or after VEST?
You know, those are kind of the twoclips you almost have to look at.
Is it, you know, first yearwe're not seeing people as
effectively on board as they could.
That gives us some really keymeasures and levers as well as
their overall engagement scores.
(28:32):
What are they showing?
There are specific questions thatwe can ask relative to that, that
help us to be able to see this.
The other one that stands outto me sometimes is actually
when we're doing learning.
So going back to two questions that Iwill challenge when, you know, when I led
learning and development functions thatI would challenge people around asking
around the learning, did the managerhave conversations with them before the,
(28:56):
what was, what they were going to haveto go through, whatever it looked like?
And do you expect your manager tohave conversations with you after?
And what do you, do you expect yourmanager to support these things?
So, those were like three ofmy top questions and a lot of
times people look at me and go,well, why do we need to ask that?
It's just about the event levelone and I'd be like, because the
(29:17):
manager has the biggest impact.
Plus, if the manager's notsupporting it, once we've done
it and actually derails it.
So meaning, I have had experiences,especially early in my career where
we built up, I mean, I'm talking, itwas some of the best training I've
ever built; and it was completelyderailed by one conversation.
(29:38):
Afterward, the manager of thatgroup and team would say, "yeah,
but you don't need to use that".
Exactly.
Yeah, Katie, you felt it.
You felt it.
And in that moment, let's be honest,
That's awful.
that's what I think aboutthe impact on social.
I mean, when you think about itas totality, you just derailed.
You just derailed everything; andyou're basically also telling me
(30:00):
I'm not going to be rewarded for it.
There's no motivation todo it, all of those things.
So now, imagine if we ask thosequestions along the journey , and we
then actually looked at those managerswho supported it versus those that
don't, and the, the other impacts thatthat has on the culture environment.
So now, let's say I trackedspecifically that this leader does this.
(30:24):
And then, I see low engagement scores.
I see high attrition.
I see all these variables.
Now, I have a completely different,like, like it wasn't the training y'all.
This is cultural andbehavioral within this team.
And, there is nothing that I candesign that is going to fix this.
(30:44):
This is a different type of intervention,and, more importantly, those where
the manager has talked with their teammember, those were the managers clearly
supporting it, that's where, where it'sbuilt in from a motivational standpoint,
where it's consistent throughoutthe cycles of what we're looking at.
We're seeing all of thesebenefits and also seeing these
impacts relative to performance.
(31:06):
You got impact.
So, those are just, I mean, we can keepgoing all day long about other ways
that I think that you can measure it.
But definitely, that is, that to me isa huge one that I think sometimes we
overlook, and sometimes at the end of theday, I'm like, it was the, we designed
the greatest training in the world,but the culture wasn't ready for it.
And that's, that's what will hinder ussometimes way more than anything else.
(31:29):
Yep.
Culture makes or breaks anything.
So, that's such a good key point thereis, you know, really look at your
culture before you go into any of thosetrainings and everything and really self
evaluate before, because it is goingto be also a loss of budget for you.
I mean, you're going to waste allthis money on this training for the
culture to just ruin it before iteven gets off the ground and going,
so definitely a high importance there.
(31:51):
So, kind of, just wrappingthis up a little bit.
Is there anything that we didn'task you that you think is important
for people to know about, you know,this topic or pertaining to the
social learning and stuff like that?
A couple, there's probably just twothings that I will wrap it with.
One is, is I think there's a lot ofsynergy around what can be done in
the diversity, equity, inclusion,and belonging space if we really are
(32:11):
intentional about our learning design.
We have those levers of really lookingat the culture, the leaders that
are going to impact it, but alsothe team members that are going to
impact it; and I think there's waymore to do in that particular space.
One in particular that stands out to me isleveraging our employee resource groups.
I think sometimes we, like, if youreally think about like going back
(32:33):
to, let's just say the culture isbigger, use that as an example.
But the ERG, sometimes, theyare that smaller community.
They are coming together regularly andI always say everybody's invited to the
ERG just because it says black ERG doesnot mean that you can't come if you are
from another identity and vice versa.
And so, I've also learned a lot of timesI will build smaller training programs.
(32:59):
That support the things that the ERG isfocused on, and I think that's a great
opportunity for us to kind of dive in.
So, for instance, if, if an ERGis saying we're struggling around
getting promotions, okay, welllet's bring those processes to those
teams and unpack them, because thatcommunity is there to support them and
actually figure out how to make it.
(33:19):
And, it automatically normally becomes acohort because they were already talking
about the struggles around it before.
So now, imagine actually inserting,inserting learning or training
into that, and then giving themthe space to kind of figure out how
to move it forward as a community.
There is a lot of powerin that particular space.
It's even sometimes, it's difficultfor me to navigate my benefits.
(33:41):
But if I've got diabetes, I'lluse that, I've got diabetes
and I learned how to navigate.
Now, when I go to this ERG andtalk about it from what I had to
do as an employee here, it elevatesthat experience for others for
how to navigate the benefits also.
So, I think we have a lot of opportunityto leverage our ERGs and get to like
smaller cohorts, but it strengthensthe whole company and the whole
(34:04):
organization and culture maybe until wecan get to some of those bigger things.
So, I think there's a lot ofopportunity in that space.
And really, the last I'll say is that,you know, DEIB is a journey y'all.
You got to be intentional and thoughtfulabout it and also recognizing that
it is ever evolving and changingas the organization changes, and
(34:25):
to start where the organization is.
I think going back to what wetalked about earlier is, is
like, what were the variables ofsocialization that took place?
That you're going to, that arejust a part of that culture
before you even started this work.
So, that when you start it, you havejust an intentional mindset about,
well, what am I really deciding for?
What are some of the experiencesthat I want to create?
(34:46):
That was great.
And yes, I totally agree with youabout everything, you know, creating
that culture; and then, makingthese baby steps to make it to
the bigger steps and everything.
And, I think, you know, it is a process.
It is a journey.
It's not going to be fixed in a day.
I mean, there's so many other factorsthat go into it within society
and everything that bring into it.
But, you know, I think if everybodycan be more mindful of this topic
(35:07):
and this stance that we're taking.
I think there is going to be alot of power and growth within our
cultures and going forward into ourbusinesses and making more success for
everyone across, you know, the board.
So, you know, Tonya, we just appreciateyou so much for being here with us today.
You've given our audience some greatcontent, a lot of things to think
about going into their workplaces; and,especially for the leaders, I think
(35:28):
this is something that's very importantto like look at and assess and see
how they want to go about it in theirfuture and how they can see if they're
on the right path or if they need tomake some changes within their cultures.
So, we just appreciate you and thank youso much for being here with us today.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Like I said, I appreciate the question.
It got me thinking and hey, we'rein community and all this together.
(35:48):
So, if people would like to learn moreabout your work, where can they find you?
They can always reachout to me on LinkedIn.
I'm there as Tonya Tucker Collins.
Also, I have a website, don't, don'thate me for it, but it's attroytucker.
com is what it's called.
And then, also, I will be at ATDpresenting around when design and culture
and data collide, so kind of goingdeeper on the L and D side, but also this
(36:13):
really thing that I think is important,which is how do we dig into more data?
Thank you.
Alright, Labmates, we will catchyou on another episode of the
Social Learning Lab next time.
We hope this episode opens thedoors for dialogue to take place
in your work, harnessing thecollective strength of diversity,
equity, inclusion, and belongingfor a world where everyone thrives.
(36:33):
These were some key takeaways wegathered from our interview with Tonya.
Socialization has a profound impacton diversity, equity, inclusion,
and belonging in the workplace.
It's about having an intentionaland inclusive approach to social
learning through structured programs.
Stories have the ability toreshape thinking by offering
counter narratives that challengestereotypes and broaden perspectives.
(36:55):
And finally, it comes down to leadershipto push for DEIB initiatives to support
employees and develop a strong culturebased around learning and growth.
Now, it's your turn, labmates.
For your experiment, it's time to reflecton multiple aspects of your identity
and how these intersect to shape yourexperiences and perspectives of others.
(37:15):
You can find the full experimentbrief in the show notes or the Social
Learning Lab community on Facebook.
In the community, you can also shareyour stories, get feedback and insight
from peers, and comment on others ideas.
And remember to check outbit.ly/Ianduckingwrite to make faster
progress toward writing improvement.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leavea review, like, subscribe, or share so
(37:37):
we can continue to build a supportivegroup of social learning enthusiasts.
Until next time, keep makinglearning that matters.
in a world where diversity iscelebrated, but often misunderstood,
and where inclusion is strived for,yet sometimes falls short, it's time
to bridge the gap between intentionand action through social learning.
Hi labmates, welcome to theSocial Learning Lab, a podclass
about social learning at work.
This episode is all about diversity,equity, inclusion, and belonging,
so join us as we discuss with expertTonya Tucker Collins about how we've
(00:24):
been socialized, and how we can shareour experiences to shift perspectives
to improve workplace culture.
Before we dive in, we want to remindyou that I Can Ducking Write, the
ultimate writing intensive for IDswho want to unblock clarity and
creativity and be recognized fortheir excellence, is kicking off.
We're running our first cohort in April.
Hope you waddle over and join us.
(00:46):
Sign up at bit.ly/Icanduckingwrite.
Hi, lab mates.
Welcome to another episodeof the Social Learning Lab.
I'm Diego, your Junior Digital Designerhere at Your Instructional Designer;
and I'm here with my other co host.
I'm Katie.
I'm an Instructional Designer hereat Your Instructional Designer.
And, we have a very specialguest here with us today.
(01:07):
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasegive a warm round of applause
for Tonya Tucker Collins.
Tonya is the global head ofDiversity, Equity, Inclusion,
and Belonging at Zasklar.
She is an executive leader withextensive experience in driving
employee experience, organizationaldevelopment, and DEIB initiatives.
Tonya is passionate about fosteringindividual growth and creating
(01:27):
opportunities that empower employeesto realize their full potential.
Her mantra, "Your Past is not YourPotential," underscores her belief
in the boundless capacity for
personal and
professional development.
Known for aligning people's strategywith business goals, Tonya has made
impactful contributions to variousindustries including retail, energy,
health care, insurance, and technology.
(01:48):
At companies such as Safeway, PG&E, Kaiser Permanente, and AAA.
At Twitch, Tonya was a VP of EmployeeExperience, Talent Development,
Talent Management, and DEIB.
Tonya designs interventions thatpositively impact organizational
culture, employee experience, and DEIB.
So we are so excited tohave you here, Tonya.
(02:08):
Welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm glad to be here and gladto be in conversation about
this topic with you both today.
Yes, of course.
So, just to start, we just want to getyour definition of how do you define DEIB?
So, a lot of times the focustends to center around the D.
So let's, let's start there.
Of course, it's beginning of the acronymor the way we've been placed it together.
(02:33):
And, I would, I would even challengeeveryone to sometimes think about what's
appropriate when you're defining it.
I know when I defined it at Twitch,I actually led with inclusion.
At Zscaler, we have decided to leadwith diversity, which is really focused
on around how do we get the right mix.
So, for instance, Ialways start with myself.
I, stepping into this space with everybodytoday, everyone will automatically
(02:57):
probably go, Oh, African American woman.
Actually Africa, African indigenous woman.
So, also a member of theWinnebago tribe or the Ho-Chunk
tribe that is located in, Omaha.
In addition to that, I'm a mother.
In addition to that, so allthose elements that make up me.
I'm also dyslexic.
I'm also a professional, but an executive.
(03:19):
All of those things.
I have all these facets of identity, and,at the same time, some of them change.
So, for instance, when I steppedinto this space, I presented as one
thing, I gave you a little bit moreinformation and now I probably present
as multiple things to multiple people.
And, that's to me, the definitionof diversity is, is that, hey, what
are those things that are visibleand sometimes non-visible, because
(03:42):
sometimes we don't think about theimportance of those things relative.
Again, being dyslexic, you don'tsee that when I step into a room.
So, that to me is thatdefinition of diversity.
And sometimes, we over index in thisspace about it being about, "Oh,
you're black, you're white, you'reLatinx, you're this, you're that".
And I say, "Well, actually, no, ifyou really start to think about it.
(04:03):
Diversity, not only is maybe what you'representing us today, but it also changes".
I say it's that one phone call thatyou can get tomorrow that someone
says, "Congratulations, you'reabout to adopt your first child".
Diversity for you just changed.
The next is really around thenext definition, which is equity.
And, I'm not talking about the quality,and where I centered this is around, and
(04:26):
if anyone has ever heard me before, hateto use the same example, but to me, it's
the best one that is available to me.
It's this idea that I can withequality give everybody a bike because
maybe that is the requirement toshow up and be at this company's
everybody has to ride a bike.
Alright, that's great.
However, if I am an amputee and yougive me the same bike as my peer on this
(04:50):
side, even though you gave us a bike,I'm not going to be able to use it.
So, that means that myrecognizing what you need.
If you're a very tall individual and I'msure anyone who's extremely tall struggles
with this, if you get the average bike,it doesn't work for you very well, meaning
you can use it, but it's normally goingto take a lot more energy effort as well
(05:12):
as at the end of the day, you're probablygoing to be hurting a little bit more than
your peers who have the same bike as you.
So great, we gave you the same bike, butif it doesn't meet you where you are, and
if we also with that don't have the rightprocesses and systems in place to allow
you as an employee, when you're steppinginto the environment to select the bike
(05:32):
that you need, then we've got a miss.
But not only that, if we also aren'trecognizing that sometimes it's not easy
for you to find the bike that you need,or maybe that bike is going to change,
then we're going to miss it aroundreally what I consider to be equity.
And, equity to me is not just about, Hey,we pass out bikes at the beginning or
the end, but it's also recognizing whoneeds what, when, and why does it have
(05:55):
to be different for that individual?
And, do we all understand that?
Which that goes into inclusion, whichalso says, Hey, we have an inclusive
environment that we're also cognizant.
So, I'll kind of go back to the ideathat, hey, some disabilities are
visible, and some are invisible.
A very simple one is sometimes havinga sharps container in the bathroom.
(06:19):
We take for granted when we go to thebathroom that there's certain things
that are going to be there becausewe all need those things, right?
Especially COVID, you need tobe able to wash your hands.
It was assumed, hey, thisis what I need to use.
However, we don't take into accountthat sometimes other individuals need
other things in the bathroom thatshould be there like a sharps container.
(06:39):
So, if I basically have a programthat I need to be able to use needles
because my doctor has prescribed it.
Now imagine what that's like forme when I'm in the bathroom and I
just want to get some, get rid ofthe needle that's a part of my life.
And, I look around and I go,there's nothing here for me to use.
And in that moment I am, thisis not an inclusive experience.
(07:03):
And it's that simple.
And sometimes we're forgetting about,Hey, we're thinking about all of
these other things or things thatwe just take for granted that are a
part or built into our society thateven we get to take advantage of.
That, hey, they weren't really madefor me, but at the same time I get
the benefit of it and that's tome where we get to that inclusive.
(07:24):
So, not just that we have a culture that'sbuilt upon psychological safety where
everyone can use their voices, but alsoin addition to that, that we've designed
it such that it is inclusive to allthose experiences and the changes that
are a part of life, because ultimatelythat's how you get to belonging.
Belonging is great when it's sustainable;and what I mean by that is, is that there
(07:48):
are points in times in a culture where youcan be perceived as too old or too young.
We're all going to experienceat a certain point.
And if you've ever stepped into anenvironment or some, or an experience
and you go, Ooh, this wasn't designedwith me in intention, I'm either too
old for this or too young for this,but now let's take it to the workplace.
So imagine now you're an employeethat's been there for five, six, seven,
(08:12):
whatever, remaining years and you realizeeither I'm too young or too old or
you don't belong and you know it; andthe environment and all the signals of
that environment are telling you that.
But, now, imagine a culture whereno matter what the age or what
changes for you relative to yourlife, you got that phone call again.
I still belong, but, more importantly,I can show up as my authentic self.
(08:36):
And, maybe, even that changesover time as I grow and evolve,
and I'm not dinged for it.
That's great.
And I totally agree with you that, youknow, Each one follows each other like
they all have to work together in orderfor this like culture to be established
and there's to be growth that happens.
So, you know, kind of, looking at itfrom a workplace standpoint, you know,
(08:56):
how would you go about this and tryingto make it a social learning experience
to help these, you know, contributionsinto this kind of atmosphere?
So, I've been really thinking aboutthis and I want to thank you for
even us having the conversation,because it got me to think deeper.
And sometimes, that's whenyou really think about it.
Social learning is in fact that.
It's, you asked me a question and Ihadn't thought about it in the context
(09:20):
of, wait, wait a minute, but at thesame time, I use it so much in terms
of when we're trying to summon it.
I'm actually I approach it fromtwo sides that I think we have to
think about it in the workplace.
One is the fact that we are, there'sa concept that actually we use in
diversity, equity, inclusion work, whichis around socialization; and that is
(09:40):
the concept that we all come into theseenvironments, but I've been socialized.
And so, what I'd like everybody todo is take a moment and think about,
hey, well, what got me to the pointof where I'm starting this job?
Maybe it was through, what I saw, meaningI think about myself recently reflecting
on women's history day, and I saw womenin my family graduating with Masters.
(10:03):
So, for me, in my head, it is verymuch a part of who I am and how I
show up, but not everybody sees that.
So, if we don't even recognize from asocialization point, the points of where
all of our employees are showing up withdifferent points of socialization, I
can't even offer sometimes forgivenessto someone, so maybe that's all you saw.
(10:27):
So, your response to me as a blackwoman in this particular space,
because that's all you saw is,kind of, like when you think about
the images you see and everything.
I can remember someone sayingto me once, you must've grown
up with a very hard life.
And I'm thinking to myself,why would you think that?
But realizing that, hey, that'show you were socialized to
(10:49):
think about my experience.
Not understanding that for me,every woman for the last almost
three generations in my family hasgraduated at the master's level.
But understandably,that's what you thought.
So, now, that you meet me, how do Ibegin to change through community and
questioning and conversation your, yourability to see what's possible or what is.
(11:11):
So, I think we have to look at oneside of it, which is asking ourselves,
how are individuals socialized beforethey show up in these environments?
And then, ask ourselves the nextquestion of how do we begin to
change that through social learning?
So again, it goes back to when Ithink about in the work environment,
sometimes we give feedback, "well, youknow, they just didn't interview well.
(11:33):
Okay.
Well, it's safe to say that there are someindividuals that have experiences where
they go through school and not only arethey doing intern, you know, they're doing
job interviewing or internships as soonas like 16 or maybe even 13, honestly.
And so, they got more interview practice.
They got more opportunities to be onthe country club and talk with people
(11:53):
and intergage in very interesting ways;and that's what they were socialized to.
But, it's also me recognizing, so goingback to that equity equation, that
not everybody has those experiences.
So what can we do from an employmentexperience that actually says, "hey,
maybe we need to hold some bootcamps, or maybe we need to unpack the
cheat codes for others who didn't getthat same experience and exposures".
(12:17):
So, do we offer and work inpartnership with our ERGs to host a
session and say everybody is invited?
We don't care, even though we might be theblack ERG, we're going to actually help
this and that's employee resource groups.
We're going to host this event foreverybody and we're going to unpack
the cheat codes relative to what ourinterviewing process looks like; and
(12:38):
more importantly, also have some practicetime so that you get that; and then,
also wait, here's an opportunity for youto expand and build upon your network.
So, maybe this isn't the job foryou, but hey, now you've got an
informal mentor, or you have someonethat can help you to navigate the
landscape to get to your next.
That to me is what I think companies canbegin to do really around social learning.
(13:03):
So one, it's, it's, I took the time torecognize, hey, if 80 percent of you
are coming in via referrals, you'recoming in with those informal networks,
but that is not the experience whenyou're going to be the only woman,
the only black employee, the onlyneurodiverse employee that's stepping
into an organization for a first time.
So, how do we begin to build thosethings more informally or formally.
(13:26):
Actually, I'll say formally so thatit's just a part of our process and not
only in how we're attracting talent,but ultimately also how we want to
build ourselves as an employee brandthat really is representative of the
communities that we're a part of.
It really sounds like, yeah, likestories and examples, just listening to
what you've said so far are important.
If that's correct, and like kind oftelling these examples, like it stood
(13:49):
out to me, your examples of likehow identities can change over time.
So, I'm just curious, yeah, likeyour, how you think of stories and
anecdotes and examples in, in this.
Stories are critical.
Stories can shift thinking.
It's again, that minute that I sitin front of a group and I share, Oh,
no, I'm third generation college;and every woman in my family
(14:10):
has essentially gone to college.
It's then someone goes, "oh, but Ithought college was new for black people".
No, not, not all, and not to say thatthere still aren't opportunities, but
that begins to shift the thinking.
Or it's, or it can even be thispowerful, imagine there's an executive
that's like, you know what, we reallystruggled to find, you know, talented
(14:31):
woman, or we struggled to find X or Y.
That's the story that'splaying in their head.
So if we ask ourselves now, imaginethis, we send that individual to
any of the organizations that areputting on events, be it Grace Hopper.
So now, imagine that executivegoing in and is surrounded by the
phenomenalness of women and they'retelling their stories, but not only
(14:53):
that, he's seen the opportunitiesof talent that meet his needs as an
organization, then, and also now, hehas that opportunity to build community.
It fundamentally then shifts his story.
It shifts his expectation and itshifts again, going back to that,
he was socialized to think this iswhat was possible and available; and
then, you get in a room with thousandsof women and you go, "oh wait, that
(15:15):
narrative no longer serves itself.
I'm motivated actually to think alittle bit differently, but I think
also with that now we have to havean environment that comes back
and further reinforces that; andthat's sometimes where we miss it.
It's like, you can have this greatexperience, but then if somebody comes
back to an environment that tellsthem a different story, that says, oh
(15:35):
no, we really don't want that here.
Well, that kind of just, that tookaway all everything else, because,
now that narrative, it is shifted tosomething that's totally different.
It's the same way, one of thethings that I tend to not do
when it comes to heritage month.
For instance, I try to look forindividuals who are part of the industry,
(15:55):
meaning I want to showcase women.
I want to show.
So, if it's like right now we're in,depends on when this goes out, but
right now we're in March, which isfocused on women's history month.
Well, if I'm a part of, let's justsay healthcare, let's focus on pulling
forward narratives of individuals whohave impacted healthcare, that basically
(16:15):
you say today don't exist, because itdemonstrates that that story is very
different than when we see, but if we'renot sharing those stories or even bringing
those voices into conversation with us,then we're missing out on their stories.
I totally agree with you.
It's actually one of the things I do hereon my campus is I'm part of our Student
Athletic Advisory Committee; and thatwas the one thing when I took over the
(16:36):
social media account and, you know, tookover that role was how do we share these
stories because each individual comes withso much diversity and there's so much,
like you said, there's so many identitiesthat go into that one person; and when
we came in, you know, I felt like a lotof people just didn't know each other;
and I said, "we have to share the life ofthese people and give them their voice,
because your voice holds power, and ifyou don't show that power, you know,
(16:58):
you're just another student athlete; butif you show that you have power within
your voice and you can use it to inspireothers, then we're doing something
right and we're building a communityand actually it's been so true is that
we've built this community now whereeverybody's like now knows each other.
They're like, you know, they foundout stuff that they didn't know
about others and it's like built thislike strong community within our own
organization to be like, you know,how do we keep sharing these voices?
(17:18):
How do we support each other and howcan we work towards getting better
as a whole athletic department?
So, you know, I do agree with youthat those stories are so impactful
and, you know, giving power to voicesin those months really shows, you
know, people that everybody's valuedno matter where they come from.
Yes.
So, I kind of want to go back tosomething that you just mentioned and it
was about the conflicts and everything.
(17:40):
So, in the instance that a conflict doesarise from like, you know, the narrative
is being shifted and everything, howwould you address potential conflicts
or misunderstandings that arise in adiverse social learning environment?
So one, I think we have to be veryintentional about the design of
whatever we're going to design.
It's kind of going back to thelearning and development side.
(18:00):
Are we aware of what are going tobe the constraints when that person
comes back to that environment?
So meaning, there, there's sometimesthis like, oh, we're going to do this
or we're going to do this; and we forgetthat America or even the globe in itself
is made up of states that have differentlaws, have different cultures within them.
(18:21):
So, it's very easy for me.
I always say, "hey, it's easy for us".
I'm, our corporate headquartersare located in the Bay area or
California- and, and in particularNorthern California, which is very
different than Southern California.
So, I've got to begin to recognize, hey,when I do something, let's just say, in
Mahali, which is in, you know, in India.
It is going to look verydifferent than, than what is here.
(18:44):
And, the conflicts that aregoing to be in both of those
two places are day and night.
So, if I have one design that just takesinto account what is here in California,
this is our expectation and doesn'ttake into account those other things,
then it basically makes it so that thisisn't something that people can learn
about, that they are going to embracebecause the environment is going to send
(19:07):
different feedback to them; and that'sa part of the thing that I think we
have to be really, really intentionalabout is what are our leaders saying?
Like, do we even have in placethe right leaders that are
going to actively reinforce it?
I, even, think about, well, what are theconversations the leader is having before
the training or whatever the event is?
And what are the conversationsthat are taking place after?
(19:28):
If there's not good leadership inplace, so let's, let's kind of go there.
Let's just say that we're tryingto shift the culture and we got
this tension between what was andwhat is, and all these things and
not really good understanding.
I would ask, are we creatingcohorts of individuals together
where they can support one anotherand have strong dialogue in a safe
space and understand like, hey,we are shifting the expectation.
(19:53):
What are the values of that organization?
Can we tie it to those values?
And more importantly, in the performancemanage measurements, so meaning, if,
if one of your values is not thentied to your performance management
processes, so meaning this goesback to kind of the what and how.
Great, you achieved excellent sales,you know, most sales organizations,
(20:14):
that's what they want; and that'sa part of the culture, and we got
to understand that, but you area really evil person in doing it.
If that's, and you still get thesame reward, we've essentially said
that what we're saying is a culturedoesn't matter as much as the sales.
And so, now the question becomes, canwe add those real values that we're
(20:35):
saying must be a part of our cultureto that and hold people accountable
in those systems and processes?
Because then that's when it getsback to the feedback that everybody's
really getting; and the real internallate internalization of like, what
is our culture really look like?
And so, those are just some of thethings I think we have to think
about in, and when we're creating thedesign, where is the organization?
(20:55):
Where are they ready?
It's recognizing that if I was in SouthernCalifornia in a certain, in certain areas,
even though it's California in the US, Iwould approach the work very differently.
If I was in Texas or Florida, I wouldapproach this work extremely differently,
even to saying like, let's use pronouns.
If I was in Texas and Florida, Iwould probably be saying to someone,
(21:15):
I don't think you really want to dothat there, because there's not that
safety net around folks to reallybe able to do this effectively.
So, it's recognizing those nuances becausewithout that recognition, diversity,
inclusion, and belonging work will notbe embedded and woven into the culture;
and that's really what we want to get to.
If you keep it to surface level,honestly, the naysay or the not
(21:40):
do will become bigger than, hey,wait, why don't we have flex time?
Why don't we have a culturewhere everybody can speak up?
Why does everybody have to assimilateto this in order to be successful?
And more importantly, your customersaren't going to be looking in and going,
hey, the experience that I get over hereis very different than the experience I
(22:01):
get over here, so it's not consistent.
So, hey, and it's not really what I want.
You guys aren't really livingwhat you're saying you are.
And so, therefore, I'm goingto bow out of this experience.
Yeah, and I totally agree with that.
That, you know, that's, it comesdown to the leadership and like,
like you said, recognition of, youknow, where you're at and how you're
going to handle these situations.
So, I guess, kind of, my thing would be,so let's say there is a leader who's,
(22:24):
you know, noticing that these are someissues that they're struggling with.
How as a leader would you approach it?
Like, do you go to your team orhow would you like, you know, try
to help create that culture thatis a safety net where people can
feel open to voice their opinions?
It's definitely, if you're seeingit as a leader, first, taking the
opportunity to really truly demonstratewhat it is that you're doing.
(22:45):
And, I mean, by your words, by youractions, even sometimes it's good
as a leader to say, you know what?
I used to do X and I'm realizingthat that didn't work or that model
of leadership didn't work for me.
And so, I'm going to be spending the nextcouple of months or this time, and I'm
going to be focused on transitioning.
So, it's that moment of vulnerability.
(23:06):
However, let's be honest, weas team members are waiting
to see, is that really you?
Are you really going to do it?
Like we're, we're waiting.
So, this is where observationbecomes critical in this, and
it's like, we're observing.
So, we want to actually see if you'regoing to do it and it's where you're going
to have to step up in your leadershipand actually begin to demonstrate it.
(23:26):
So, it's that moment where maybesomeone has clued you into that,
hey, sometimes, when you're talkingto women, you tend to mansplain,
and it shuts down the conversation.
Or maybe it's, maybe someone called outsome other behavior and you take the
time to say, you know what, I'm going towork on the fact that I'm mansplaining.
I know I do it and I'm going toask you all to kind of help me with
(23:49):
that; and it's not to, it's likewhen I start to go down that path.
Just is, is there a word we're going touse, whatever it's going to be, but I'm
actually going to be very intentionaland thoughtful in partnership with you.
I'm not saying that I'm just goingto automatically turn this off,
but also that demonstrates toeverybody, hey, we can try new things.
We can try new things together, and we cantry new things and you can bring things to
(24:13):
me, and you can offer me feedback, and I'mwilling to adjust my behaviors, but I'm
willing to do it in partnership with you.
I think that is something a leader can do.
In order to expand their reach even more,I would say, is there opportunity for
you to bring your team members togetherin order to have more discussions
(24:33):
and dialogues about these things?
I think it's important in this timewhere, you know, we're still trying to
get that work from home right; and whatI'm finding is, is that a lot of times
we're just not having conversations.
We're not putting the things thatare making it difficult or hard
out into the space; and we're notkeeping our commitments and honoring
them; and no one's calling it outbecause we don't really know how,
(24:55):
meaning for instance, there may bedays where you say everybody's got
to come in on Tuesday and Thursday.
Well, that means thateverybody's commuting.
Why are we having eight o'clock meetings?
It's recognizing that everybody needsprobably a little bit more flexibility.
But at the same time, everybody's kind oftrying to make it work and it's making it
harder for everybody as opposed to saying,hey, this is what we're going to do.
(25:16):
And that's also to when that leadersays, "hey, Tonya, I noticed you
scheduled an eight o'clock meeting.
I really want, you know, with the workfrom home, I would prefer those meetings
to be on Monday, Wednesday, Friday atthat, if we're going to have something
that early; or if we're having somethingat 6 am with our counterparts, because
we need to pull everybody together.
Do it at those times because that giveseverybody more flexibility than trying
(25:38):
to do it in the peak commute timeof everybody trying to get to work".
Not saying anything aboutit actually makes it worse.
Definitely.
Yeah, and I think, you know, likeyou said, that open dialogue is
so important in the workspace, andjust having those conversations with
people; and, you know, it can be hardto like take in at times hearing it.
You don't always want to hear thenegative, but sometimes you have to
(26:00):
hear the negative to make a changewithin yourself and within your
organization to put out the resultsthat you want; and the, you know,
culture that you want within youremployees and your, you know, workspace.
And, I think culture is such a bigthing that can make or break a business.
And, I think by recognizing it as aleader, you can really change that and
create that community that you want; andI think it's going to be more productive.
(26:21):
So, speaking of productivity, youknow, how do you assess the impact
of social learning initiatives onthe diversity, equity, inclusion, and
belonging within the organization?
Are there like any specific metrics thatyou evaluate or how do you go about it?
So, probably the biggest one.
So, there's a couple that I thinkwe can use and actually really hone
in on, I'm going to say hone in.
(26:42):
One is around what isour onboarding look like?
Because that to me iswhere it is going to start.
How effective have we onboarded?
Have we given individualsaccess to buddies?
Have we built cohorts intoour new employee experience?
So essentially, if we start to see higherscores relative to that effectiveness
on onboarding or individuals who areonboarding faster, so meaning, our
(27:05):
expectation as a culture is that,"hey, it's going to take you," and when
I say onboarding, it's not just theinformation that you get in Neo, but
it's how you navigate some of thoseinformal and formal things like we
use Slack, we use Google, we do this.
And, it's those informal relationshipsof being able to do that and be
able to move effectively through theprocesses and systems that are just
(27:26):
in part that are part of the company.
How effective is that?
Does it take on averageeverybody 120 days to do that?
But by putting in place today, systemsaround having the good buddy in place,
having really good structure arounda 30, 60, 90 day onboarding plan that
is intentional in partnership withthe manager and the connections that
(27:49):
a person needs to make as they areonboarding critical to their role,
as well as those that they need tokind of see the full work stream.
In addition to that, do we buildthose cohorts in that kind of supports
you really for that next year?
I'm not talking about justthe first 90 days, but we're
talking about the first year.
And so, as a result, do we seeless misfires relative to hiring?
(28:10):
So, what I mean by that specifically is,do we have high, you know, do we have
high exits after a year or after VEST?
You know, those are kind of the twoclips you almost have to look at.
Is it, you know, first yearwe're not seeing people as
effectively on board as they could.
That gives us some really keymeasures and levers as well as
their overall engagement scores.
(28:32):
What are they showing?
There are specific questions thatwe can ask relative to that, that
help us to be able to see this.
The other one that stands outto me sometimes is actually
when we're doing learning.
So going back to two questions that Iwill challenge when, you know, when I led
learning and development functions thatI would challenge people around asking
around the learning, did the managerhave conversations with them before the,
(28:56):
what was, what they were going to haveto go through, whatever it looked like?
And do you expect your manager tohave conversations with you after?
And what do you, do you expect yourmanager to support these things?
So, those were like three ofmy top questions and a lot of
times people look at me and go,well, why do we need to ask that?
It's just about the event levelone and I'd be like, because the
(29:17):
manager has the biggest impact.
Plus, if the manager's notsupporting it, once we've done
it and actually derails it.
So meaning, I have had experiences,especially early in my career where
we built up, I mean, I'm talking, itwas some of the best training I've
ever built; and it was completelyderailed by one conversation.
(29:38):
Afterward, the manager of thatgroup and team would say, "yeah,
but you don't need to use that".
Exactly.
Yeah, Katie, you felt it.
You felt it.
And in that moment, let's be honest,
That's awful.
that's what I think aboutthe impact on social.
I mean, when you think about itas totality, you just derailed.
You just derailed everything; andyou're basically also telling me
(30:00):
I'm not going to be rewarded for it.
There's no motivation todo it, all of those things.
So now, imagine if we ask thosequestions along the journey , and we
then actually looked at those managerswho supported it versus those that
don't, and the, the other impacts thatthat has on the culture environment.
So now, let's say I trackedspecifically that this leader does this.
(30:24):
And then, I see low engagement scores.
I see high attrition.
I see all these variables.
Now, I have a completely different,like, like it wasn't the training y'all.
This is cultural andbehavioral within this team.
And, there is nothing that I candesign that is going to fix this.
(30:44):
This is a different type of intervention,and, more importantly, those where
the manager has talked with their teammember, those were the managers clearly
supporting it, that's where, where it'sbuilt in from a motivational standpoint,
where it's consistent throughoutthe cycles of what we're looking at.
We're seeing all of thesebenefits and also seeing these
impacts relative to performance.
(31:06):
You got impact.
So, those are just, I mean, we can keepgoing all day long about other ways
that I think that you can measure it.
But definitely, that is, that to me isa huge one that I think sometimes we
overlook, and sometimes at the end of theday, I'm like, it was the, we designed
the greatest training in the world,but the culture wasn't ready for it.
And that's, that's what will hinder ussometimes way more than anything else.
(31:29):
Yep.
Culture makes or breaks anything.
So, that's such a good key point thereis, you know, really look at your
culture before you go into any of thosetrainings and everything and really self
evaluate before, because it is goingto be also a loss of budget for you.
I mean, you're going to waste allthis money on this training for the
culture to just ruin it before iteven gets off the ground and going,
so definitely a high importance there.
(31:51):
So, kind of, just wrappingthis up a little bit.
Is there anything that we didn'task you that you think is important
for people to know about, you know,this topic or pertaining to the
social learning and stuff like that?
A couple, there's probably just twothings that I will wrap it with.
One is, is I think there's a lot ofsynergy around what can be done in
the diversity, equity, inclusion,and belonging space if we really are
(32:11):
intentional about our learning design.
We have those levers of really lookingat the culture, the leaders that
are going to impact it, but alsothe team members that are going to
impact it; and I think there's waymore to do in that particular space.
One in particular that stands out to me isleveraging our employee resource groups.
I think sometimes we, like, if youreally think about like going back
(32:33):
to, let's just say the culture isbigger, use that as an example.
But the ERG, sometimes, theyare that smaller community.
They are coming together regularly andI always say everybody's invited to the
ERG just because it says black ERG doesnot mean that you can't come if you are
from another identity and vice versa.
And so, I've also learned a lot of timesI will build smaller training programs.
(32:59):
That support the things that the ERG isfocused on, and I think that's a great
opportunity for us to kind of dive in.
So, for instance, if, if an ERGis saying we're struggling around
getting promotions, okay, welllet's bring those processes to those
teams and unpack them, because thatcommunity is there to support them and
actually figure out how to make it.
(33:19):
And, it automatically normally becomes acohort because they were already talking
about the struggles around it before.
So now, imagine actually inserting,inserting learning or training
into that, and then giving themthe space to kind of figure out how
to move it forward as a community.
There is a lot of powerin that particular space.
It's even sometimes, it's difficultfor me to navigate my benefits.
(33:41):
But if I've got diabetes, I'lluse that, I've got diabetes
and I learned how to navigate.
Now, when I go to this ERG andtalk about it from what I had to
do as an employee here, it elevatesthat experience for others for
how to navigate the benefits also.
So, I think we have a lot of opportunityto leverage our ERGs and get to like
smaller cohorts, but it strengthensthe whole company and the whole
(34:04):
organization and culture maybe until wecan get to some of those bigger things.
So, I think there's a lot ofopportunity in that space.
And really, the last I'll say is that,you know, DEIB is a journey y'all.
You got to be intentional and thoughtfulabout it and also recognizing that
it is ever evolving and changingas the organization changes, and
(34:25):
to start where the organization is.
I think going back to what wetalked about earlier is, is
like, what were the variables ofsocialization that took place?
That you're going to, that arejust a part of that culture
before you even started this work.
So, that when you start it, you havejust an intentional mindset about,
well, what am I really deciding for?
What are some of the experiencesthat I want to create?
(34:46):
That was great.
And yes, I totally agree with youabout everything, you know, creating
that culture; and then, makingthese baby steps to make it to
the bigger steps and everything.
And, I think, you know, it is a process.
It is a journey.
It's not going to be fixed in a day.
I mean, there's so many other factorsthat go into it within society
and everything that bring into it.
But, you know, I think if everybodycan be more mindful of this topic
(35:07):
and this stance that we're taking.
I think there is going to be alot of power and growth within our
cultures and going forward into ourbusinesses and making more success for
everyone across, you know, the board.
So, you know, Tonya, we just appreciateyou so much for being here with us today.
You've given our audience some greatcontent, a lot of things to think
about going into their workplaces; and,especially for the leaders, I think
(35:28):
this is something that's very importantto like look at and assess and see
how they want to go about it in theirfuture and how they can see if they're
on the right path or if they need tomake some changes within their cultures.
So, we just appreciate you and thank youso much for being here with us today.
Thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
Like I said, I appreciate the question.
It got me thinking and hey, we'rein community and all this together.
(35:48):
So, if people would like to learn moreabout your work, where can they find you?
They can always reachout to me on LinkedIn.
I'm there as Tonya Tucker Collins.
Also, I have a website, don't, don'thate me for it, but it's attroytucker.
com is what it's called.
And then, also, I will be at ATDpresenting around when design and culture
and data collide, so kind of goingdeeper on the L and D side, but also this
(36:13):
really thing that I think is important,which is how do we dig into more data?
Thank you.
Alright, Labmates, we will catchyou on another episode of the
Social Learning Lab next time.
We hope this episode opens thedoors for dialogue to take place
in your work, harnessing thecollective strength of diversity,
equity, inclusion, and belongingfor a world where everyone thrives.
(36:33):
These were some key takeaways wegathered from our interview with Tonya.
Socialization has a profound impacton diversity, equity, inclusion,
and belonging in the workplace.
It's about having an intentionaland inclusive approach to social
learning through structured programs.
Stories have the ability toreshape thinking by offering
counter narratives that challengestereotypes and broaden perspectives.
(36:55):
And finally, it comes down to leadershipto push for DEIB initiatives to support
employees and develop a strong culturebased around learning and growth.
Now, it's your turn, labmates.
For your experiment, it's time to reflecton multiple aspects of your identity
and how these intersect to shape yourexperiences and perspectives of others.
(37:15):
You can find the full experimentbrief in the show notes or the Social
Learning Lab community on Facebook.
In the community, you can also shareyour stories, get feedback and insight
from peers, and comment on others ideas.
And remember to check outbit.ly/Ianduckingwrite to make faster
progress toward writing improvement.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leavea review, like, subscribe, or share so
(37:37):
we can continue to build a supportivegroup of social learning enthusiasts.
Until next time, keep makinglearning that matters.
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