February 12, 2024 • 40 mins
Unlock the power of knowledge and growth by joining a community of like-minded professionals- where collaboration fuels innovation and share insights pave the way for collective success. In this episode, the Your ID team are joined by the founder of Hacking HR, Enrique Rubio to gain insight on how to build effective learning communities. Let’s dive in!
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Special Guest
Enrique Rubio, Founder of Hacking HR
Enrique is the founder of Hacking HR, a global community that unites professionals across the HR landscape and supports their development through learning, sharing, and collaboration. With Enrique leading the way, Hacking HR strives for a better world by “creating the best HR ever.” The community is brimming with resources and opportunities for making meaningful connections, so it’s no surprise that Hacking HR has grown into the second largest organization for HR professionals and the #1 most engaged community for HR professionals–surpassing even SHRM. In addition to his work with HackingHR, Enrique is also a keynote speaker on the future of work, HR & tech, and digital transformation
Interested in finding out more about Hacking HR
Connect with Enrique on LinkedIn
Your Hosts
Katie Hynes, Instructional Designer
Nicole Papaioannou Lugara, Founder & Learning Strategist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Bringing people together and tapping thecollective intelligence is an unbeatable
way to solve complex challenges.
So says our guest today, Enrique Rubio,founder of Hacking HR, who shares
his insights about why communitiesmatter and how to build them.
Hi lab mates.
Welcome to the Social Learning Lab, apodclass about social learning at work.
(00:21):
This episode is all about community,so consider this your invitation
to join us and learn how to buildit so people not only come, but
stay, connect, and collaborate.
Hi, lab mates!
Katie here with Nicole todayfrom Your Instructional Designer.
We're excited to welcome an expertat building community, Enrique
Rubio to the Social Learning Lab.
(00:43):
Enrique is the founder of HackingHR, a global community that unites
professionals across the HR landscapeand supports their development tHRough
learning, sharing and collaboration.
With Enrique leading the way, HackingHR strives for a better world by
quote, "Creating the best HR ever".
The community is brimming with resourcesand opportunities for making meaningful
(01:04):
connections, so it's no surprise thatHacking HR has grown into the second
largest organization for HR professionalsand the number one most engaged community
for HR professionals surpassing even SHRM.
In addition to his work with HackingHR, Enrique is also a keynote
speaker on the future of work, HRand tech, and digital transformation.
(01:25):
Thanks so much for joining us, Enrique.
Thank you, Katie andNicole for inviting me.
I am excited about the conversation.
Thank you.
Of course.
Our pleasure.
So to start us off, can you tell ourlisteners a bit about Hacking HR and the
awesome work you do for this community?
Yeah, absolutely.
We, we are a global learning communityof HR leaders and practitioners, and we
(01:48):
bring all these experts together fromall over the world to learn, share,
collaborate on all things that arehappening at the intersection of future
of work; the transformations that arehappening in the workplace; innovation,
technology, people, culture, strategy.
So anybody that, that, you know,pretty much everything falls
(02:08):
into that intersection, right.
So, anybody in the HR space or outside ofthe HR space, who is interested in that
intersection is welcome to our communityto participate in our learning programs,
which generally take the form of events.
We do about 200 events per year.
All of, all of them focusedon this intersection.
(02:30):
This year we're launching ourcertificate programs to offer a strong
alternative to what exists in the market.
Again, all of them focused oneverything that is happening at this
intersection that I mentioned before.
And, we have our social, we put, we puta lot of content out tHRough our social
media channels, particularly LinkedIn,which is our main community channel.
(02:52):
We have our own community platform, wherepeople can come and they can find mentors
and, you know, learning a learning libraryand join our events and, and whatnot.
But yeah, ultimately what we do is bringthe community together to make sure
that we're providing the tools, theresources, the ideas, the insights, sort
(03:12):
of everything that is actionable at,at a, at both a strategic and tactical
level, so that we can create a betterHR that can create better organizations.
So, that's ultimately kind of our goal.
Awesome, and we'd love to hear, sortof, the origin story of this community.
So, where did you get theidea to create Hacking HR?
Yeah, well, I am, I've been in HRfor a long time now, but I started my
(03:36):
career as an electronic engineer, andI worked for a long time in technology
then because of the, the intersectionof multiple things happening in life.
I ended up in HR, which I truly enjoy,and I enjoyed transitioning to HR
and have enjoyed my career in HR.
But, there was a point in, in my, in mytenure in HR, I, I had a corporate job.
(04:01):
I was a full-time employee,and I found myself bored.
Not, not, that doesn't mean that hehad a lot of time available, but I, the
things that I was doing, I was, theywere not getting me excited, you know.
I mean this has happens toa lot of people by the way.
It's not that they are not busy, it'sthat, you know, there's like, like
(04:22):
you are not energized by what youdo, and then it gets a little bit
harder to get out of bed, for example.
It's like, oh my gosh, I have to dothe same thing; and yes, I'm gonna
be very busy, but it's not exactlysomething that excites me, gets me in
flow, and something that helps me growand where I can help other people grow.
So, I was in that place seven yearsago where I found myself busy,
(04:44):
but not doing exciting things.
And, I said to myself, well, youknow, I have a couple of options here.
Either I waste the time just dumbscrolling on social media or, or
just sitting here being busy, butnot something that I really wanna
do or I can create something fromscratch to have from conversations,
interesting conversations wherepeople can learn and grow and develop.
(05:06):
So, I created this community to haveconversations about the intersection
only of technology and HR, that was theorigin kind of place of this community.
And then, of course, now we covera lot more topics, but I wanted
to help HR people connect thedots between the work they do.
The impact the work they do hason business and people and how
(05:28):
technology can help them do that.
This was seven years ago.
We had a few conversations.
We were creating chaptersall over the world.
This was pre pandemic, of course,and we had about a hundred
chapters all over the world.
It was an amazing tHRiving collectiveeffort with, you know, hundreds
of events around the world.
The pandemic happened.
We transitioned to doingeverything virtually.
(05:50):
And here we are, you know, four yearsafter the pandemic, almost seven years
after I created this community, havingall these amazing conversations, all
which all, all of these things startedjust from that epiphany of being bored,
but wanting to do something valuablefor myself in the first place, because
I was bored, but also for the community.
(06:10):
So, that's the origin story of Hacking HR.
Oh, and, by the way, I had a, I wasbefore I created this thing, I was
having a conversation with a friend.
He's, he's a super brilliant guy, andwe were having conversation and I was
telling him like, oh man, you know,I, I work in HR, but I'm so bored
and I wanna do something different,HR needs so much help and needs to
change in a lot of different ways.
He told me like, well, in a way, youare gonna be kind of like Hacking HR.
(06:32):
And, I was like, boom, that,that name sounds great.
And, that came out of thatconversation that I had with him.
And, that's, that's the name thatour community has and has had
Oh wow.
That's really fun to hearwhere the name came from.
Yeah.
I'm really tHRilled that you were boredand have friends that have creative
names because this space is so awesome.
(06:53):
Just saying from my ownexperiences with the community.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun space, and,you know, so many people criticize HR,
you know, it's like, oh, HR this, HR that.
And, I'm like, well, you know,go and spend one day in HR and
then tell me about it, right?
In fact, you know, like as recent asa couple of days ago, you know, I, on
our social, on our community platformon LinkedIn, we post a lot of content.
(07:16):
I'm talking about, you know, 50to a hundred pieces of content
every week, and we post a coupleof funny videos every week as well.
So, I posted something funny and somebodycommented, some, saying something like, I
don't know, something demeaning about HR.
About HR when, when HR is inrecruitment, and I said, well, you
know, you're not, you're not seeingthe entire, you know, everything that
(07:36):
happens in the recruitment space.
You think that you are not being contactedby HR, but what you, what you don't see is
that HR has to deal with a hiring manager,who more, more often than not, is changing
the job requirements, the candidatesthey like, the salary they want to offer.
You are not seeing that organizationsone day say, oh, let's expand our
(07:57):
talent, you know, our talent in thiscompany and the next day they are like,
oh, we need to cut down on costs, sowe're gonna be hiring more people.
And then, you don't see the manyother demands that are on HR.
You only see HR, because HR is theface that is talking to you that you
don't know all the things that arehappening behind the scenes that HR
has to deal with in order to be ableto have that conversation with you.
(08:18):
You don't see, for example, that HRhas to filter for every position they
have, they have to filter through,you know, hundreds if not thousands
of applicants, most of whom have noskills for that job and still apply.
And yeah, for them, it is like, oh,let me apply to see if I get it.
But for HR, it's like, oh my gosh,I have to spend all this extra time
(08:38):
filtering this person who may notbe the right person for this role.
So, all of that makesthe job of HR difficult.
And, I'm just using the example ofrecruitment, but I say this because, at
the end of the day, HR is a fun community.
HR is a community of people thatreally want the best for, for
the people and for the business.
I have never found, and I know that thereare HR people who have to do better in the
(09:04):
job they do, and some people in HR like ithappens in every other field of expertise.
They, because of their actionsor inaction, they have damaged
the reputation of our profession.
That's not the majority.
That's a handful of people.
This is true also for salespeople.
This is true also for IT people, forfinance people and, and whatnot, right?
But, you know, h when, whenever youask anybody in HR, why are you here?
(09:27):
Why are you doing this alone,under resourced, understaffed,
burned out, and you keep, youknow, trudging along every day?
Why are you doing this?
And, they tell you, becauseI love working for people.
I love serving people.
So yeah, we're fun.
We, add value.
We do the, not always do we do theright thing, as in, you know, on doing
(09:49):
something, on time, on do or doing itstrategically, but that's kind of like
the nature of our changing profession.
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm hearing you bring a lot ofempathy and also optimism and like,
sort of, a vision to, you know, theprofession and, and the development.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I believe in HR.
I mean, otherwise, I will bean electronic engineer still,
you know, and not doing this.
(10:10):
I believe in HR.
I believe in the power of HR to become,I, I actually, you know, you can go
back in time in our social community,in our social media, and you will find
that for a long time I have been talkingabout HR becoming a trailblazer, and
what a trailblazer is it's a person ora group of people that are marking the
trail, blazing the trail forward, sothat others can follow and not get lost.
(10:35):
So, what we're doing, the role that Isee HR having going forward is marking
the trail that businesses leadersand people have to follow in order
to not get lost as we try to remainrelevant and valuable, profitable,
sustainable in this new reality of work.
And, the reason why I know that HR can dothat as opposed to many other functions
(10:57):
is because we are, sort of, sitting atan intersection of two, two different
currents, two different flows, right?
The flow of people operations and theflow of business operations; and not
everybody sits at that intersection,not everybody has that vantage point
that we have at that intersection.
So, as, as a nature professional,you know and understand how your
(11:19):
business is operating, and you knowand understand how the talent can fit
into that picture and provide valueto the operation of that business.
That's a unique place to be.
And as unique as it is, it allowsus to become trailblazers, leading
everybody forward, knowing that talentand business operations are the two
ways to, again, keep organizationssustainable, successful, profitable
(11:43):
so, you know, in the long run.
So, I see HR as a trailblazer, and I trulybelieve in this, by the way, you know, so
some days I don't totally believe in it.
Some days it's, you know, like,it's like a rollercoaster, right?
Some days it's like, oh my gosh, maybe Ishould change back to electronic engineer.
But then, I realize, no,you know, I love this.
I, I see the potential in HR.
(12:04):
I believe in HR and yes, you know, noteverybody, not every day or everybody
has the same level of energy and optimismabout this function that, you know, I do.
So, so that's why I do what I do.
Sure.
Yeah, and I love thatimage of blazing the trail.
And, I kind of wanna think aboutlike for the community of Hacking HR,
where did that trail sort of begin?
(12:25):
So like, how did your community fromthose first few members grow into
the thriving space that it is today?
Yeah.
Well, it started as a conversation oftechnology and, and HR as I mentioned
before, and we were doing these chaptermeetups everywhere in the world from,
you know, from everywhere in the US,Canada, Mexico, Latin America was
covered, you know, Europe, in, inAfrica, in, in the Asia Pacific region.
(12:49):
So, we have, we had chapters everywhere.
And, they were bring, they werebringing the community together to have
great conversations with everybody.
They were bringing amazing thought leadersto, to be part of the conversation.
And that, that's the origin, right?
That's, you know, people comingtogether, learning from each other.
And when we had to transition fromdoing in-person events to doing virtual
(13:12):
events, we wanted to make sure thatwe were, first of all, removing every
possible barrier that would preventanybody from joining these conversations.
And, the barriers,generally, are time zone.
So, if you, you know, if we, most of ourevents are in US based time zone, but
we make all of our content available forfree forever for anybody in the community.
(13:33):
So, if you live in a time zone whereit's 2:00 AM when we're doing an
event here at 9:00 AM, it's fine.
I mean, it's not the same kind of feelingif you don't, if you're not live in there,
but you still get access to that content.
Right?
So we wanted to make surethat we removed that barrier.
The second barrier is cost.
You know, I mean, I look around atother communities in HR, and I'm
(13:53):
like how can you, you know, we,we generally are one of the most
under-resourced functions in any business.
I don't know how can you charge somuch money for something that sometimes
is not even high quality by the way.
Something that's, you know, thingsthat sometimes have pretty mediocre,
and they charge a lot of money.
And I wanted that barrier to be removed.
So, all of our content, all ofour events, all of that is access,
(14:17):
you know, accessible to for freeto everybody in the community, no
matter where they are in the world.
The other thing is that I wanted themto have access to best thought leaders,
speakers, researchers in the world.
And, I pride myself with havingcreated a community that attracts
great quality, you know, world classand a list of speakers to do this for
(14:40):
free, by the way, for the community.
When sometimes I, I gotta tell youthis, you know, like I put together
an event, a summit, you know, and webring, I don't know, a hundred speakers.
And, out of those a hundred speakers maybeand I do this event for free, so, you
know, 10 or 20 of them, they go to do anevent for other group and they are doing
it for free in that other group as well.
(15:01):
But that group is charging $2 to$3,000 for people to get access
to that content, and I'm like,no, I'm not going to do that.
If, if these great speakers aregiving me their time generously and,
and kindly are giving their time toenlighten the community about what
they know and their expertise, whythe heck am I gonna charge $3,000 for
something, for doing something like this?
(15:22):
Right?
So, we removed that various, well, wemade, we created a bridge that is very
short between getting access to thesespeakers and what people are looking for.
So that's, and, and then we, we, on ourown, we create a lot of amazing content.
So, that's how we started with thechapters, but then we have progressively
and, you know, very quickly grownto becoming, you know, sort of this
(15:44):
center of expertise bringing allthese amazing leaders together.
We are, by the way, about to launch.
I know you will be posting this podcaston the beginning of February, but
this year, finally, you know, one ofmy, you know, dreams of years that
I, I have been wanting to do, but Ididn't have the opportunity or the
time to do it before, but we're gonnado it this year is, we're launching
(16:04):
our Hacking HR certificate programs.
And, we're doing it with our newacademic brand that is called the
People and Culture Strategy Institutethat is powered by HR and we're gonna
do certificate programs, eventuallywe're gonna do certifications.
And of course, you know, from thereon, you know, maybe a bachelor's degree
or, or a master's degree, I don't know.
But for now, we begin small with,with, we're gonna begin with six
(16:25):
certificate programs this year.
And, they will be very differentfrom everything that is out there.
And we, it's, it's a test.
You know, this year it's gonnabe, we're gonna be testing whether
this, this philosophy works for us.
And then, next year we go all in.
But, you know, let'ssee how it goes, right?
I mean, we just wanna make sure that wegive a low cost access to the best thought
(16:46):
leaders in the world, in our community.
Amazing.
Yeah.
So, it boils down to, yeah, amazingcontent that's accessible to your members.
Yeah.
And so, you know, that kind, oh, sorry.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, cause I, I went, well, I hearda lot of good things too, Katie, like
accessibility was coming in there.
I think you got this great vision, thisgreat why, but I'm, I'm gonna ask you to
(17:08):
go back a second, Enrique, because I feellike we went from zero to 60, like we got
to these hundreds of amazing chapters.
But I don't know, for people whoactually have these big, amazing ideas
of how they can help, like how did youeven get from zero, just I wanna help
people to, we have hundreds of chapters.
Like, what, what was the, did youjust go and do out all the outreach?
(17:29):
Like I would, I would love toknow how you even got to step one.
Yeah, well, step one, I did it myself.
You know, I did for Hacking HR.
The very first event, you know, rememberwhen I was saying before I was bored
in my job, I wanted to do something,and I said, well, I have no idea.
I don't know much.
I don't know a lot of people.
I don't know any venue, where todo this, especially, I don't know
any venue where to do it for free.
And, I'm gonna just, I'm just gonna haveto do my, you know, the research to find
(17:52):
out how I can bring this idea forward.
This was back at, byJuly or August of 2017.
And, I reached out to WeWork.
I, I was living in Washington, DC by then.
I reached out to, we to WeWork inCrystal City, which is a city adjacent
to DC, and I asked them like, "Hey,you know, we wanna do this, can you
give us space for a couple of hoursin the evening of this day for free?"
(18:15):
And, they are, they are like, not onlyare we gonna give you the space for free,
we're gonna give you beer for free andwe're gonna give you coffee for free.
Come and do your thing.
And, I was like, whoa.
And then, I started inviting speakers,so I invited super high level people,
you know, like the Chief Learning Officerfrom IBM, the Chief Learning Officer from
NASA, you know, all these awesome people.
And, they were like, oh yeah, I can do it.
You know, like it's, it sounds fun, youknow, it's like, it's like a happy hour
(18:37):
evening where we happened to have to, tobe talking about something cool, right.
Something that we do.
That event was the very first event ever.
That was in September.
That's, that's when I countthe beginning of Hacking HR.
That was on September, the endof September of, and then I
was like, wow, you know, it waslike a hundred people in there.
It went, it went really well.
And then, I was like, well, let me doit in New York to see what happens,
(18:57):
and I followed the same kind ofprocess and I went, I did it in New
York, lot of people in New York.
And then, some other folks started tofind out that, that I was doing this
and they started to reach out to me,like from Chicago, from Tampa, from
Zurich, from Lagos, from Kuala Lumpur.
They were like, oh, thissound, this brand sounds great.
What you guys are doing is great.
Can we, can we do it here on your behalf?
(19:19):
And, that's how the chapters,I didn't know by the way,
that I wanted to do chapters.
All I wanted to do was two or threeevents on my own in the cities
close to the sea, you know, CrystalCity, DC, New York, maybe Chicago.
I didn't know I wanted to do chapters.
I didn't even know what achapter of anything was.
And then, all these peoplestarted to reach out.
And then, we started, youknow, making it work, right?
(19:41):
So, that's, that's kind of how we wentfrom zero to one to, you know, to
100, but the most important thing isthat, you know, for anybody is that
be, you know, be begin like kicking,kicking something off, it's hard
and things don't happen overnight.
We're still, you know, I mean, we'vegrown a lot in Hacking HR, but I
(20:01):
still feel that our breakthroughsand our best days are ahead of us.
So I, I know that what we've done andthe, the journey that we have traversed
is 0.1% of all that we have to do.
That's sovereign because, you know, itallows us to celebrate what we've done,
but not losing sight of the many morethings that we have to build to get to
(20:23):
that place where we would love to be inthe next, you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years.
That's how we started.
You know, you just, you just haveyour idea and you just, you just start
small and make it happen and see, youknow, like see what the reaction is,
and, you know, fine tune, be vault,move around, and, and grow from there.
Yeah.
Awesome, and digging into that a littlemore and kind of reflecting on the
(20:46):
journey so far, like in your experience,what would you say are the top elements
that make a community flourish?
The top elements thatmake a community flourish.
First of all, you gotta doit for the right reasons.
If what you are trying to do, and this,really, kind of, bothers me to be honest.
I see companies whose only intentis to sell, creating communities and
(21:09):
presenting themselves as a communitywhen all they want is to have a database
of people that they can sell to.
That truly bothers me, because, whenthey do something wrong, they don't
screw it up just for them, they screwit up for everybody else as well.
Because then, imagine being invitedto a community event and you go to
a community event and all you hearis somebody selling you shit, right?
(21:30):
So, if that happens, that person willsay for the next time, maybe I don't
join another community event, becauseI don't want that to happen to me.
And in fact, some people have reachedout to me saying, I would love to join,
but please promise me that nobody'sgonna be selling me stuff over and over
because it happened to me here and there.
So we have, they, they screwed up forthe rest of us, and we have to pick
(21:52):
up the pieces of what they break.
To make it happen for the people that aretruly interested in building community.
So your first, by the way, there'snothing wrong about selling.
If that's what you want to do, say it.
You know, say if you come to this meetup,we're, we are gonna give you a, a beer for
free, but you're gonna be sold two, youknow, we're gonna have five sponsors that
(22:12):
we'll be trying to sell you something.
And, there are people who like that.
I mean, you will have a great communityof people going to your thing, because
they want to know what's available theywant to be sold to, and they enjoy that.
And, that's totally fine.
Just don't fake it.
You know?
Just don't say that you're somethingand that's not what you are.
You're something else.
And then you're screwedup for the rest of us.
So, the first thing that yougotta be very clear about is
(22:33):
what is it that you are for?
What is it that you are?
Is it a true community where you wannabring people together to grow together?
Is it a place for, for vendors to sell?
Is it for you to do lead generation?
Be very clear about what is itthat you that you want to do
with, with that community, right?
So, that to me is the key ingredient.
(22:55):
So that genuineness and authenticityabout what your community is about.
The second thing I would say is,you know, making sure that you
provide enough avenues for people toconnect with each other and not only
connect with a quote on quote expert.
And I mentioned before, we bring worldclass experts, you know, thought leaders,
A-class, you know, speakers to all ofour events, but we always make sure that
(23:20):
everybody has the opportunity to connect,not only with those people that we call
experts, but also among themselves.
And that happens a lot, in fact,sometimes I see, you know, I go to,
you know, like I go to LinkedIn andI see like, you know, I mean Nicole
and Katie connecting, and I'm like,how, how do you guys know each other?
I mean, like, you, you like, I Ithis connection, like I didn't know
existed, and they were like, oh, yeah,we connected because of Hacking HR.
(23:42):
We went to an event together, or wewere, you know, speaking together, or we
were participating together in the sameevent, and we were, you know, commenting
on something and sharing ideas, and wewere like, oh, we, we clicked, right?
We were like, oh, wow, you aresaying something that is interesting.
Katie, can I connect with you?
You know, Nicole, can I connect with you?
Right?
So, make sure that you're providing enoughavenues for people to connect with each
(24:03):
other and not just, you know, kind oflike, you know, one direction, you know,
workings, you know, of your community asin experts just sharing their knowledge.
So, I would say genuineness,authenticity, this, this creating this,
this opportunities for connection.
And, you know, more, more on apersonal level is, you know, creating,
building communities is very hard.
(24:25):
You know, it's a very hard thing to do.
First of all, because there are a millionother communities out there, and people
don't have a million hours a day to joinone hour for each community every day.
So, they have to select what they join.
So, you got, you have to make sure thatyou are creating something that is great,
high quality, that makes a difference,solves a problem, has an impact.
(24:45):
But simultaneously, you're gonnahave to be okay with the fact that
some people will still choose togo to the other person, you know,
to go to the other community.
And, you will think, oh my gosh,what do they have that I don't have?
Their problems are crappy.
My programs are great, my eventsare better, their events are
not good, and they will stillgo to that other community.
So, you will have to be very resilientand persistent and committed to your
(25:08):
craft and the craft of your community,because this, you know, it only
gets harder, you know, as you grow.
You know, if you have 10 members in onecommunity meeting, you want 20 in the
next one, and if 20 comes to come tothe next one, then you want a hundred.
And that makes it harder andharder, because at the end of the
day, you want to impact people.
That's what communities, communitybuilders do, solve problems,
(25:31):
help people, impact people.
And I, anyway, you know thatpatience is, is a, you know, a key
component of building community.
So, you know, genuineness, authenticityabout what your community is about,
you know, making sure that you'reproviding enough avenues for people
to connect with each other, not justwith the experts, quote on quote.
And, and number three, you know,being patient, you know, and just,
(25:54):
just you know, pushing forward.
If you truly believe in what you'redoing and that you are making a
difference, just pushing forward, youknow, that's the, that's the way to go.
Yeah, and I'd love to hearabout the social learning that's
happening within the community.
So, you've really set the stage forthat to happen with peer-to-peer
connections that you just described.
So yeah, tell us some details about thesocial learning happening in hacking HR.
(26:16):
Yeah.
Well, there are, you know, we have our,our mentoring feature within our own
platform, but I think the, the one, andby the way, it's, it's been very ad hoc.
It's not, it, it wasn'tdone by design, right.
And, and now, it's a little bitmore by design with the certificate
programs that we're gonna be doing.
But in an ad hoc, on a, not on an ad hocbasis, it happened that whenever we were
(26:40):
doing an event, we started encouragingpeople to connect with each other;
to share resources, to share insightsand ideas; to ask questions that could
help them get an answer, but could helpeverybody else who had the same question
or, and didn't wanna ask it, you know,to kind of like get an answer, right?
So, the way we, we have put forwardthis idea of social learning through
(27:04):
the events that we do is just byencouraging people to, to, to be
present, to connect with each other,to share resources with each other.
Even if the panel, which more often, youknow, more often than not in our events,
we do panels and the panels have theirown agenda, you know, with a guidelines
and questions, and they cannot necessarilylook at what people are talking about
in the, in, in the comments, but weencourage people in the comments; for
(27:27):
example, when we're doing this live, toconnect with each other, you know, to,
to make sure that they are helping eachother, and it's super interesting, you
know, when we do these events, becausewe do an event, somebody asks a question
and literally out of the blue, like,you know, 10 other people are saying, oh
yeah, you can go here, you can go there.
I found this resource amazing.
I read this book that was great.
So, everybody's helping eachother, and that to me is
(27:50):
beautiful because it's organic.
It's very organic.
So our social learninghas been very organic.
Now, it's going to be more bydesign and intentionally with the
certificate programs that we'redoing, because we are including,
and again, this is an experiment.
We're gonna give it a try, but our,our certificate programs, the, the
classes will be live, there will beassessment that will be group, group work.
(28:12):
There will be group peer reviewof other groups', works or work.
So, that's more by design, right?
We don't want to leave that just, youknow, to sheer, you know, happenstance.
You know, we wanna make sure thatwe are building those intentional
pieces of, you know, collaborativework and social, social learning.
But at the events that we havedone so far, it just happened.
It just happens organically.
(28:34):
That's great.
That's, sort of, the bestway I think for it to happen.
It is sustainable.
Yeah.
Yeah, and, you know, you've mentioneda few different challenges along
the way, but are there any othersthat you'd want to just highlight
for people who are learning aboutbuilding communities themselves?
Like any lessons learned about creatinga global professional community?
Maybe just the only one is that it'shard, you know, it's it's, it's not easy.
(28:56):
And, yeah, you know, we have allthe tools, and most of them are
free, until certain point of course,but, you know, you can go, you need
to create your, you know, your,social media assets for something.
You go to Canva with a free accountor you decided in PowerPoint.
I don't know.
Every, by the way, we use Canvaevery day now for everything we do.
But I started doing this all onPowerPoint, so you know, I can
(29:16):
go back and show you the 2017,the September 2017 banners for
everything that we did on PowerPoint.
And, it was kind of annoying,but that's what we did.
That's what we had available, right.
So, you have that.
You can create a free account onLinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram
and start promoting what you're doing.
Reaching out to people right now is theeasiest thing, and not, not everybody
(29:38):
will say yes to your invitations todo something, and still to, you know,
today to us as well known as we are,so many people either ignore me or
say no to my invitations, and that'sokay, you know, I just move along and,
and go to the next or move forwardand you know, go to the next thing.
But people will say no and not becausethey don't like what you do, it's
just because they probably don't knowyou or maybe, you know, a million
(30:00):
other people are inviting them to dosomething, and they have to be more
selective about how they use their time.
But right now you can just goto LinkedIn and say, who's the
experts in social learning?
And, you go to social learning and youfind, well, you know, Nicole and Katie.
Let me reach out to Nicole and Katie andsend them an email and say, "Hey, Nicole,
Katie, I'm doing this thing, I would loveto talk to you about this, you know, do
you have, you know, half an hour, youknow, within the next whatever, right?
(30:22):
So, you can do that for free.
So, you know, it's, it's, you have thetools available, but it's still not easy
because as, as, because the, since thetools are available, everybody, you know,
not everybody, but a lot of the peoplewill try to do the same thing, right?
So, you're gonna becompeting for attention.
You know, you're gonna be competingfor with other folks that are equally
energized as you are to build a community.
(30:44):
So, it's not easy, you know, be patient,but again, as I mentioned before, if
you believe in what you are tryingto do, you know, just, just do it.
Begin small, you know, celebrate thesmall, excuse me, the small successes
and they just, just take it from there.
Amazing, and do you have anyfavorite moments or success
stories that really stand out?
(31:05):
Well, a couple of years ago, was ita couple of, yeah, we are in 2024.
Two years ago, we had, we do a virtualconference every March, and, two years
ago, we had our highest amount of people.
Last year was a little bit less ofpeople, but I was expecting that,
just because, you know, we are, a lotof people are, kind of, like moving,
moving on from just participatingin virtual events to now going more
(31:25):
to in-person events, given that, youknow, it seems that we are at the tail
end of, of Covid, but we don't know.
But in, in 2022, we had 50,000 peopleregister to our conference, and that made
us the largest HR event in the world.
And again, we don't spend anymoney sponsoring sponsored content.
You know, we don't bring, you know,Barack Obama to speak at an event.
(31:47):
I wish, you know, but we don't havethose super big names, you know,
we just have a cohort of incrediblethought leaders that are on the ground
making the magic happen every day.
And what they say, they don'tjust say because they are asking
others in a survey, what do youthink is the top priority for HR?
Oh, this one.
And then they repeat that ina talk as if they knew how to
(32:08):
leave that in reality, right?
We are bringing the people thatare telling you, my top priority
is hiring diverse talent.
And, how do I know that?
Because I need to hirediverse talent in my company.
That's a company mandate and I amliving through that every day of my,
of my, you know, my tenure as a leader,as an HR leader in this company.
So, we bring the people that areon the trenches, making this magic
(32:31):
happen and fighting the battlesthat HR has to fight, right?
So, so that's why we had allthis, you know, amazing, kind of,
traction for that, for that event.
Last year was less people, and I'm hopingthis year, you know, we're gonna be kind
of like, like, like on, on an average oflike about 20,000 registered participants,
which is still a pretty good number.
Amazing
So, so that's been a key momentfor me, you know, bringing so many
(32:53):
people together to our events.
And yeah, so having the opportunity,you know, we expanded our team a little
bit, you know, with, with people doingmore content and, you know, and, kind
of, like helping us grow and thinkabout strategically, you know, how do
we create great content and package,package that content in a great way.
(33:14):
So, all of that has been anamazing, sort of, journey.
That is absolutely amazing.
And, that kind of leads me to mynext question too, cause you're
a thought leader on the future ofwork, so I'm curious to hear, you
know, how does gathering people incommunities like Hacking HR help
us move forward towards betterworkplaces and ultimately better worlds
.Yeah, that's a good question.
I think, you know, the truth is thatthe nature of the challenges that we
(33:38):
are dealing with right now is incrediblycomplex to be solved by individuals,
or individual companies, or individualregions, or even individual countries.
We need to bring people togetherto solve these complex challenges.
You know, I'm talking about, forexample, climate change, right?
(33:59):
And the implications of climatechange, climate diaspora, human
migration because of climate change.
Imagine the impact that that willhave and has today in so many, you
know, countries and, sort of, thebusiness landscape in those countries.
It's impossible for a single one ofthose countries or a single one of
those companies to say, how are wegoing to manage the influx of talent
(34:23):
coming into this city or this country?
Because they are pretty much,sort of, like climate change,
migration sort of people, right?
So, we have to think about that together.
You see the war going on in Ukraineand the war going on between, you know,
in Israel and, and Palestine, right?
So, you think about this levelof complexity of some of these
(34:45):
challenges that we're dealing with.
And, they can't be solved alone byindividual people; again, by individual
companies or individual countries.
So, bringing people together allows us totap into the collective intelligence of
everybody and say, how do we solve this?
Right?
How do we, how do we havethis difficult problem?
How do we get, how do we resolve it,but how do we resolve it in a way?
(35:08):
That not only works for thatcompany or that country, but
that works for everybody else.
That works for all of us.
And to me, bringing peopletogether to have those kinds of
conversations is the way to go.
It's, it's an unbeatable wayto solve complex challenges.
That's how we evolved to beginwith, you know, because of
collaboration and cooperation.
So, let's just go back to the roots,to the basics and say we have these
(35:31):
complex challenges, how do we resolvethem in a way that benefits everybody?
And to do that, we gotta do it together.
Wonderful.
Thanks Nicole.
Did you have anything to add?
Oh no, I've just enjoyed, you know,Enrique, this isn't the first time we've
gotten to chat and I feel so lucky.
But, if you just listen to, I mean,it's, it's only been a little over
30 minutes and there's so many highlypractical and applicable things that
(35:55):
one can take and start working with.
And, I just love that, because it reflectseverything I know about you and how you
run your brand as well, which is really tomake it accessible, practical, you know,
hands on and, and not to live in theoryand like, you know, the big enterprise.
Maybe we could do this, but liketo really, this is for the people
who are getting their hands dirtyat work, and how we can help them.
(36:17):
I just love that so much.
So I, I mean, you know, as we wrap up,I'll we'll say it a million times, but
thank you really, thank you so muchfor coming on the podclass today like
we've learned so much from you already.
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
It was a, it was a great conversation,and, and I'm hoping that people,
you know, those who want to createcommunities, including those
communities that will perhaps evencompete with Hacking HR, go for it.
(36:39):
You know, just send me a message and Iwill be happy to tell you all that I've
learned, even if I know that eventuallyyou're gonna be competing with us.
Because at the end of the day, whenI think about HR, in particular HR,
but this is true for all, all type ofexpertise, but in HR there are about,
yeah, I think it's something like 10million people in HR in the world.
That are, you know, no singlecommunity will ever be able
(37:01):
to serve all of those people.
Just think about SHRM, for example,and I don't, I don't like talking about
them too much, because I, I'm not muchof a fan of the way they do things.
But after 75 years of existence,they only have like 300,000 members.
And, I say only, yeah, it's stilla big number, but it's not a big
number in the big scheme of thingswhen, you know, when you think about
300,000 members after 75 years in acommunity of 12 million professionals.
(37:24):
And, that's why, that's becausea lot of other HR people want
to find something different.
They want a differentrepresentation to their voice.
They want a different outlet towhat they're looking for, and
they, you know, they don't fitthat neither do we by the way.
You, we, you know, that there are peoplethat come to us and they are like,
well, you know, you are great or, oryou're cool, but you are not exactly
(37:45):
what I'm looking for and that's fine.
You know, so that means that thereare spaces in this market and in any
other market to create something thatcaters and responds specifically to
what these communities are, to whatthese groups of people are looking for.
And, all of us will havea different offering.
And, that's the beauty of it, right?
People have the power of choice atthe end of the day and they can say,
(38:05):
well then, how can I try to find this?
But in this other group,I find this other thing.
So when I need this other thing, I goto that group; and when I need what
Hacking HR offers, I go to hacking HR.
So, that to me is the ultimate, kindof, inspiration, so to speak for those
who are seeking to create a community.
And, they're like, well,there's so much competition.
Yeah, well, find whatthey're not doing and do it.
(38:26):
Absolutely, and is there anything thatI didn't ask before we wrap up that you
think is really important for people toknow on this topic or about hacking HR?
No, other than, if they wantto get involved, just go
to our website, HackingHR.
io, check it out.
We got a lot of good stuff in there.
Reach out to me, you know,particularly via LinkedIn or
via email enrique@hackingHR.io.
(38:47):
Let me know if there's anythingthat we can do for you.
And, you know, I'm, I'm hereand you know, our team is here
and the community is here.
So, yeah, that's that.
Thank you for, thank youso much for inviting me.
Absolutely.
So yeah, on behalf of our, you know,team here at Your Instructional Designer,
we just wanna thank you once againfor being part of the podclass today.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I appreciate it.
We hope you're feeling as inspiredas we are to take these ideas and
(39:10):
create communities where people canshare, learn, and innovate together.
Here's a quick recap of the keysto effective community building.
Ensure the community providesvalue for those who join.
Be transparent about the intentand purpose of the community.
Make the community accessible.
Encourage collaboration, cooperation,and connection among members, for
(39:32):
example, through social learningelements like events, peer-to-peer
connections, and resource sharing.
Identify one doable step to taketo begin building the community and
celebrate small successes along the way.
Have a marketing plan in place tospread the word about the community.
Embrace the reality that growingand sustaining a community
takes resilience and patience.
(39:54):
And, put feedback mechanisms inplace to help the community evolve.
Now it's your turn.
For your experiment, you'llbrainstorm ways to grow an existing
community or start one from scratch,thinking about how you can adapt
the essential elements discussedin today's episode to your context.
You can find the full experimentbrief in the show notes or The Social
(40:14):
Learning Lab community on Facebook.
In other words, you can think aboutcommunity, in community, share your
ideas, get feedback and insights frompeers, and comment on others' ideas.
If you enjoyed this episode, pleaseleave a review, like subscribe or share
so we can continue to build a supportivegroup of social learning enthusiasts.
(40:34):
Until next time, keep makinglearning that matters.
Bringing people together and tapping thecollective intelligence is an unbeatable
way to solve complex challenges.
So says our guest today, Enrique Rubio,founder of Hacking HR, who shares
his insights about why communitiesmatter and how to build them.
Hi lab mates.
Welcome to the Social Learning Lab, apodclass about social learning at work.
(00:21):
This episode is all about community,so consider this your invitation
to join us and learn how to buildit so people not only come, but
stay, connect, and collaborate.
Hi, lab mates!
Katie here with Nicole todayfrom Your Instructional Designer.
We're excited to welcome an expertat building community, Enrique
Rubio to the Social Learning Lab.
(00:43):
Enrique is the founder of HackingHR, a global community that unites
professionals across the HR landscapeand supports their development tHRough
learning, sharing and collaboration.
With Enrique leading the way, HackingHR strives for a better world by
quote, "Creating the best HR ever".
The community is brimming with resourcesand opportunities for making meaningful
(01:04):
connections, so it's no surprise thatHacking HR has grown into the second
largest organization for HR professionalsand the number one most engaged community
for HR professionals surpassing even SHRM.
In addition to his work with HackingHR, Enrique is also a keynote
speaker on the future of work, HRand tech, and digital transformation.
(01:25):
Thanks so much for joining us, Enrique.
Thank you, Katie andNicole for inviting me.
I am excited about the conversation.
Thank you.
Of course.
Our pleasure.
So to start us off, can you tell ourlisteners a bit about Hacking HR and the
awesome work you do for this community?
Yeah, absolutely.
We, we are a global learning communityof HR leaders and practitioners, and we
(01:48):
bring all these experts together fromall over the world to learn, share,
collaborate on all things that arehappening at the intersection of future
of work; the transformations that arehappening in the workplace; innovation,
technology, people, culture, strategy.
So anybody that, that, you know,pretty much everything falls
(02:08):
into that intersection, right.
So, anybody in the HR space or outside ofthe HR space, who is interested in that
intersection is welcome to our communityto participate in our learning programs,
which generally take the form of events.
We do about 200 events per year.
All of, all of them focusedon this intersection.
(02:30):
This year we're launching ourcertificate programs to offer a strong
alternative to what exists in the market.
Again, all of them focused oneverything that is happening at this
intersection that I mentioned before.
And, we have our social, we put, we puta lot of content out tHRough our social
media channels, particularly LinkedIn,which is our main community channel.
(02:52):
We have our own community platform, wherepeople can come and they can find mentors
and, you know, learning a learning libraryand join our events and, and whatnot.
But yeah, ultimately what we do is bringthe community together to make sure
that we're providing the tools, theresources, the ideas, the insights, sort
(03:12):
of everything that is actionable at,at a, at both a strategic and tactical
level, so that we can create a betterHR that can create better organizations.
So, that's ultimately kind of our goal.
Awesome, and we'd love to hear, sortof, the origin story of this community.
So, where did you get theidea to create Hacking HR?
Yeah, well, I am, I've been in HRfor a long time now, but I started my
(03:36):
career as an electronic engineer, andI worked for a long time in technology
then because of the, the intersectionof multiple things happening in life.
I ended up in HR, which I truly enjoy,and I enjoyed transitioning to HR
and have enjoyed my career in HR.
But, there was a point in, in my, in mytenure in HR, I, I had a corporate job.
(04:01):
I was a full-time employee,and I found myself bored.
Not, not, that doesn't mean that hehad a lot of time available, but I, the
things that I was doing, I was, theywere not getting me excited, you know.
I mean this has happens toa lot of people by the way.
It's not that they are not busy, it'sthat, you know, there's like, like
(04:22):
you are not energized by what youdo, and then it gets a little bit
harder to get out of bed, for example.
It's like, oh my gosh, I have to dothe same thing; and yes, I'm gonna
be very busy, but it's not exactlysomething that excites me, gets me in
flow, and something that helps me growand where I can help other people grow.
So, I was in that place seven yearsago where I found myself busy,
(04:44):
but not doing exciting things.
And, I said to myself, well, youknow, I have a couple of options here.
Either I waste the time just dumbscrolling on social media or, or
just sitting here being busy, butnot something that I really wanna
do or I can create something fromscratch to have from conversations,
interesting conversations wherepeople can learn and grow and develop.
(05:06):
So, I created this community to haveconversations about the intersection
only of technology and HR, that was theorigin kind of place of this community.
And then, of course, now we covera lot more topics, but I wanted
to help HR people connect thedots between the work they do.
The impact the work they do hason business and people and how
(05:28):
technology can help them do that.
This was seven years ago.
We had a few conversations.
We were creating chaptersall over the world.
This was pre pandemic, of course,and we had about a hundred
chapters all over the world.
It was an amazing tHRiving collectiveeffort with, you know, hundreds
of events around the world.
The pandemic happened.
We transitioned to doingeverything virtually.
(05:50):
And here we are, you know, four yearsafter the pandemic, almost seven years
after I created this community, havingall these amazing conversations, all
which all, all of these things startedjust from that epiphany of being bored,
but wanting to do something valuablefor myself in the first place, because
I was bored, but also for the community.
(06:10):
So, that's the origin story of Hacking HR.
Oh, and, by the way, I had a, I wasbefore I created this thing, I was
having a conversation with a friend.
He's, he's a super brilliant guy, andwe were having conversation and I was
telling him like, oh man, you know,I, I work in HR, but I'm so bored
and I wanna do something different,HR needs so much help and needs to
change in a lot of different ways.
He told me like, well, in a way, youare gonna be kind of like Hacking HR.
(06:32):
And, I was like, boom, that,that name sounds great.
And, that came out of thatconversation that I had with him.
And, that's, that's the name thatour community has and has had
Oh wow.
That's really fun to hearwhere the name came from.
Yeah.
I'm really tHRilled that you were boredand have friends that have creative
names because this space is so awesome.
(06:53):
Just saying from my ownexperiences with the community.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a fun, it's a fun space, and,you know, so many people criticize HR,
you know, it's like, oh, HR this, HR that.
And, I'm like, well, you know,go and spend one day in HR and
then tell me about it, right?
In fact, you know, like as recent asa couple of days ago, you know, I, on
our social, on our community platformon LinkedIn, we post a lot of content.
(07:16):
I'm talking about, you know, 50to a hundred pieces of content
every week, and we post a coupleof funny videos every week as well.
So, I posted something funny and somebodycommented, some, saying something like, I
don't know, something demeaning about HR.
About HR when, when HR is inrecruitment, and I said, well, you
know, you're not, you're not seeingthe entire, you know, everything that
(07:36):
happens in the recruitment space.
You think that you are not being contactedby HR, but what you, what you don't see is
that HR has to deal with a hiring manager,who more, more often than not, is changing
the job requirements, the candidatesthey like, the salary they want to offer.
You are not seeing that organizationsone day say, oh, let's expand our
(07:57):
talent, you know, our talent in thiscompany and the next day they are like,
oh, we need to cut down on costs, sowe're gonna be hiring more people.
And then, you don't see the manyother demands that are on HR.
You only see HR, because HR is theface that is talking to you that you
don't know all the things that arehappening behind the scenes that HR
has to deal with in order to be ableto have that conversation with you.
(08:18):
You don't see, for example, that HRhas to filter for every position they
have, they have to filter through,you know, hundreds if not thousands
of applicants, most of whom have noskills for that job and still apply.
And yeah, for them, it is like, oh,let me apply to see if I get it.
But for HR, it's like, oh my gosh,I have to spend all this extra time
(08:38):
filtering this person who may notbe the right person for this role.
So, all of that makesthe job of HR difficult.
And, I'm just using the example ofrecruitment, but I say this because, at
the end of the day, HR is a fun community.
HR is a community of people thatreally want the best for, for
the people and for the business.
I have never found, and I know that thereare HR people who have to do better in the
(09:04):
job they do, and some people in HR like ithappens in every other field of expertise.
They, because of their actionsor inaction, they have damaged
the reputation of our profession.
That's not the majority.
That's a handful of people.
This is true also for salespeople.
This is true also for IT people, forfinance people and, and whatnot, right?
But, you know, h when, whenever youask anybody in HR, why are you here?
(09:27):
Why are you doing this alone,under resourced, understaffed,
burned out, and you keep, youknow, trudging along every day?
Why are you doing this?
And, they tell you, becauseI love working for people.
I love serving people.
So yeah, we're fun.
We, add value.
We do the, not always do we do theright thing, as in, you know, on doing
(09:49):
something, on time, on do or doing itstrategically, but that's kind of like
the nature of our changing profession.
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm hearing you bring a lot ofempathy and also optimism and like,
sort of, a vision to, you know, theprofession and, and the development.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I believe in HR.
I mean, otherwise, I will bean electronic engineer still,
you know, and not doing this.
(10:10):
I believe in HR.
I believe in the power of HR to become,I, I actually, you know, you can go
back in time in our social community,in our social media, and you will find
that for a long time I have been talkingabout HR becoming a trailblazer, and
what a trailblazer is it's a person ora group of people that are marking the
trail, blazing the trail forward, sothat others can follow and not get lost.
(10:35):
So, what we're doing, the role that Isee HR having going forward is marking
the trail that businesses leadersand people have to follow in order
to not get lost as we try to remainrelevant and valuable, profitable,
sustainable in this new reality of work.
And, the reason why I know that HR can dothat as opposed to many other functions
(10:57):
is because we are, sort of, sitting atan intersection of two, two different
currents, two different flows, right?
The flow of people operations and theflow of business operations; and not
everybody sits at that intersection,not everybody has that vantage point
that we have at that intersection.
So, as, as a nature professional,you know and understand how your
(11:19):
business is operating, and you knowand understand how the talent can fit
into that picture and provide valueto the operation of that business.
That's a unique place to be.
And as unique as it is, it allowsus to become trailblazers, leading
everybody forward, knowing that talentand business operations are the two
ways to, again, keep organizationssustainable, successful, profitable
(11:43):
so, you know, in the long run.
So, I see HR as a trailblazer, and I trulybelieve in this, by the way, you know, so
some days I don't totally believe in it.
Some days it's, you know, like,it's like a rollercoaster, right?
Some days it's like, oh my gosh, maybe Ishould change back to electronic engineer.
But then, I realize, no,you know, I love this.
I, I see the potential in HR.
(12:04):
I believe in HR and yes, you know, noteverybody, not every day or everybody
has the same level of energy and optimismabout this function that, you know, I do.
So, so that's why I do what I do.
Sure.
Yeah, and I love thatimage of blazing the trail.
And, I kind of wanna think aboutlike for the community of Hacking HR,
where did that trail sort of begin?
(12:25):
So like, how did your community fromthose first few members grow into
the thriving space that it is today?
Yeah.
Well, it started as a conversation oftechnology and, and HR as I mentioned
before, and we were doing these chaptermeetups everywhere in the world from,
you know, from everywhere in the US,Canada, Mexico, Latin America was
covered, you know, Europe, in, inAfrica, in, in the Asia Pacific region.
(12:49):
So, we have, we had chapters everywhere.
And, they were bring, they werebringing the community together to have
great conversations with everybody.
They were bringing amazing thought leadersto, to be part of the conversation.
And that, that's the origin, right?
That's, you know, people comingtogether, learning from each other.
And when we had to transition fromdoing in-person events to doing virtual
(13:12):
events, we wanted to make sure thatwe were, first of all, removing every
possible barrier that would preventanybody from joining these conversations.
And, the barriers,generally, are time zone.
So, if you, you know, if we, most of ourevents are in US based time zone, but
we make all of our content available forfree forever for anybody in the community.
(13:33):
So, if you live in a time zone whereit's 2:00 AM when we're doing an
event here at 9:00 AM, it's fine.
I mean, it's not the same kind of feelingif you don't, if you're not live in there,
but you still get access to that content.
Right?
So we wanted to make surethat we removed that barrier.
The second barrier is cost.
You know, I mean, I look around atother communities in HR, and I'm
(13:53):
like how can you, you know, we,we generally are one of the most
under-resourced functions in any business.
I don't know how can you charge somuch money for something that sometimes
is not even high quality by the way.
Something that's, you know, thingsthat sometimes have pretty mediocre,
and they charge a lot of money.
And I wanted that barrier to be removed.
So, all of our content, all ofour events, all of that is access,
(14:17):
you know, accessible to for freeto everybody in the community, no
matter where they are in the world.
The other thing is that I wanted themto have access to best thought leaders,
speakers, researchers in the world.
And, I pride myself with havingcreated a community that attracts
great quality, you know, world classand a list of speakers to do this for
(14:40):
free, by the way, for the community.
When sometimes I, I gotta tell youthis, you know, like I put together
an event, a summit, you know, and webring, I don't know, a hundred speakers.
And, out of those a hundred speakers maybeand I do this event for free, so, you
know, 10 or 20 of them, they go to do anevent for other group and they are doing
it for free in that other group as well.
(15:01):
But that group is charging $2 to$3,000 for people to get access
to that content, and I'm like,no, I'm not going to do that.
If, if these great speakers aregiving me their time generously and,
and kindly are giving their time toenlighten the community about what
they know and their expertise, whythe heck am I gonna charge $3,000 for
something, for doing something like this?
(15:22):
Right?
So, we removed that various, well, wemade, we created a bridge that is very
short between getting access to thesespeakers and what people are looking for.
So that's, and, and then we, we, on ourown, we create a lot of amazing content.
So, that's how we started with thechapters, but then we have progressively
and, you know, very quickly grownto becoming, you know, sort of this
(15:44):
center of expertise bringing allthese amazing leaders together.
We are, by the way, about to launch.
I know you will be posting this podcaston the beginning of February, but
this year, finally, you know, one ofmy, you know, dreams of years that
I, I have been wanting to do, but Ididn't have the opportunity or the
time to do it before, but we're gonnado it this year is, we're launching
(16:04):
our Hacking HR certificate programs.
And, we're doing it with our newacademic brand that is called the
People and Culture Strategy Institutethat is powered by HR and we're gonna
do certificate programs, eventuallywe're gonna do certifications.
And of course, you know, from thereon, you know, maybe a bachelor's degree
or, or a master's degree, I don't know.
But for now, we begin small with,with, we're gonna begin with six
(16:25):
certificate programs this year.
And, they will be very differentfrom everything that is out there.
And we, it's, it's a test.
You know, this year it's gonnabe, we're gonna be testing whether
this, this philosophy works for us.
And then, next year we go all in.
But, you know, let'ssee how it goes, right?
I mean, we just wanna make sure that wegive a low cost access to the best thought
(16:46):
leaders in the world, in our community.
Amazing.
Yeah.
So, it boils down to, yeah, amazingcontent that's accessible to your members.
Yeah.
And so, you know, that kind, oh, sorry.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, cause I, I went, well, I hearda lot of good things too, Katie, like
accessibility was coming in there.
I think you got this great vision, thisgreat why, but I'm, I'm gonna ask you to
(17:08):
go back a second, Enrique, because I feellike we went from zero to 60, like we got
to these hundreds of amazing chapters.
But I don't know, for people whoactually have these big, amazing ideas
of how they can help, like how did youeven get from zero, just I wanna help
people to, we have hundreds of chapters.
Like, what, what was the, did youjust go and do out all the outreach?
(17:29):
Like I would, I would love toknow how you even got to step one.
Yeah, well, step one, I did it myself.
You know, I did for Hacking HR.
The very first event, you know, rememberwhen I was saying before I was bored
in my job, I wanted to do something,and I said, well, I have no idea.
I don't know much.
I don't know a lot of people.
I don't know any venue, where todo this, especially, I don't know
any venue where to do it for free.
And, I'm gonna just, I'm just gonna haveto do my, you know, the research to find
(17:52):
out how I can bring this idea forward.
This was back at, byJuly or August of 2017.
And, I reached out to WeWork.
I, I was living in Washington, DC by then.
I reached out to, we to WeWork inCrystal City, which is a city adjacent
to DC, and I asked them like, "Hey,you know, we wanna do this, can you
give us space for a couple of hoursin the evening of this day for free?"
(18:15):
And, they are, they are like, not onlyare we gonna give you the space for free,
we're gonna give you beer for free andwe're gonna give you coffee for free.
Come and do your thing.
And, I was like, whoa.
And then, I started inviting speakers,so I invited super high level people,
you know, like the Chief Learning Officerfrom IBM, the Chief Learning Officer from
NASA, you know, all these awesome people.
And, they were like, oh yeah, I can do it.
You know, like it's, it sounds fun, youknow, it's like, it's like a happy hour
(18:37):
evening where we happened to have to, tobe talking about something cool, right.
Something that we do.
That event was the very first event ever.
That was in September.
That's, that's when I countthe beginning of Hacking HR.
That was on September, the endof September of, and then I
was like, wow, you know, it waslike a hundred people in there.
It went, it went really well.
And then, I was like, well, let me doit in New York to see what happens,
(18:57):
and I followed the same kind ofprocess and I went, I did it in New
York, lot of people in New York.
And then, some other folks started tofind out that, that I was doing this
and they started to reach out to me,like from Chicago, from Tampa, from
Zurich, from Lagos, from Kuala Lumpur.
They were like, oh, thissound, this brand sounds great.
What you guys are doing is great.
Can we, can we do it here on your behalf?
(19:19):
And, that's how the chapters,I didn't know by the way,
that I wanted to do chapters.
All I wanted to do was two or threeevents on my own in the cities
close to the sea, you know, CrystalCity, DC, New York, maybe Chicago.
I didn't know I wanted to do chapters.
I didn't even know what achapter of anything was.
And then, all these peoplestarted to reach out.
And then, we started, youknow, making it work, right?
(19:41):
So, that's, that's kind of how we wentfrom zero to one to, you know, to
100, but the most important thing isthat, you know, for anybody is that
be, you know, be begin like kicking,kicking something off, it's hard
and things don't happen overnight.
We're still, you know, I mean, we'vegrown a lot in Hacking HR, but I
(20:01):
still feel that our breakthroughsand our best days are ahead of us.
So I, I know that what we've done andthe, the journey that we have traversed
is 0.1% of all that we have to do.
That's sovereign because, you know, itallows us to celebrate what we've done,
but not losing sight of the many morethings that we have to build to get to
(20:23):
that place where we would love to be inthe next, you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years.
That's how we started.
You know, you just, you just haveyour idea and you just, you just start
small and make it happen and see, youknow, like see what the reaction is,
and, you know, fine tune, be vault,move around, and, and grow from there.
Yeah.
Awesome, and digging into that a littlemore and kind of reflecting on the
(20:46):
journey so far, like in your experience,what would you say are the top elements
that make a community flourish?
The top elements thatmake a community flourish.
First of all, you gotta doit for the right reasons.
If what you are trying to do, and this,really, kind of, bothers me to be honest.
I see companies whose only intentis to sell, creating communities and
(21:09):
presenting themselves as a communitywhen all they want is to have a database
of people that they can sell to.
That truly bothers me, because, whenthey do something wrong, they don't
screw it up just for them, they screwit up for everybody else as well.
Because then, imagine being invitedto a community event and you go to
a community event and all you hearis somebody selling you shit, right?
(21:30):
So, if that happens, that person willsay for the next time, maybe I don't
join another community event, becauseI don't want that to happen to me.
And in fact, some people have reachedout to me saying, I would love to join,
but please promise me that nobody'sgonna be selling me stuff over and over
because it happened to me here and there.
So we have, they, they screwed up forthe rest of us, and we have to pick
(21:52):
up the pieces of what they break.
To make it happen for the people that aretruly interested in building community.
So your first, by the way, there'snothing wrong about selling.
If that's what you want to do, say it.
You know, say if you come to this meetup,we're, we are gonna give you a, a beer for
free, but you're gonna be sold two, youknow, we're gonna have five sponsors that
(22:12):
we'll be trying to sell you something.
And, there are people who like that.
I mean, you will have a great communityof people going to your thing, because
they want to know what's available theywant to be sold to, and they enjoy that.
And, that's totally fine.
Just don't fake it.
You know?
Just don't say that you're somethingand that's not what you are.
You're something else.
And then you're screwedup for the rest of us.
So, the first thing that yougotta be very clear about is
(22:33):
what is it that you are for?
What is it that you are?
Is it a true community where you wannabring people together to grow together?
Is it a place for, for vendors to sell?
Is it for you to do lead generation?
Be very clear about what is itthat you that you want to do
with, with that community, right?
So, that to me is the key ingredient.
(22:55):
So that genuineness and authenticityabout what your community is about.
The second thing I would say is,you know, making sure that you
provide enough avenues for people toconnect with each other and not only
connect with a quote on quote expert.
And I mentioned before, we bring worldclass experts, you know, thought leaders,
A-class, you know, speakers to all ofour events, but we always make sure that
(23:20):
everybody has the opportunity to connect,not only with those people that we call
experts, but also among themselves.
And that happens a lot, in fact,sometimes I see, you know, I go to,
you know, like I go to LinkedIn andI see like, you know, I mean Nicole
and Katie connecting, and I'm like,how, how do you guys know each other?
I mean, like, you, you like, I Ithis connection, like I didn't know
existed, and they were like, oh, yeah,we connected because of Hacking HR.
(23:42):
We went to an event together, or wewere, you know, speaking together, or we
were participating together in the sameevent, and we were, you know, commenting
on something and sharing ideas, and wewere like, oh, we, we clicked, right?
We were like, oh, wow, you aresaying something that is interesting.
Katie, can I connect with you?
You know, Nicole, can I connect with you?
Right?
So, make sure that you're providing enoughavenues for people to connect with each
(24:03):
other and not just, you know, kind oflike, you know, one direction, you know,
workings, you know, of your community asin experts just sharing their knowledge.
So, I would say genuineness,authenticity, this, this creating this,
this opportunities for connection.
And, you know, more, more on apersonal level is, you know, creating,
building communities is very hard.
(24:25):
You know, it's a very hard thing to do.
First of all, because there are a millionother communities out there, and people
don't have a million hours a day to joinone hour for each community every day.
So, they have to select what they join.
So, you got, you have to make sure thatyou are creating something that is great,
high quality, that makes a difference,solves a problem, has an impact.
(24:45):
But simultaneously, you're gonnahave to be okay with the fact that
some people will still choose togo to the other person, you know,
to go to the other community.
And, you will think, oh my gosh,what do they have that I don't have?
Their problems are crappy.
My programs are great, my eventsare better, their events are
not good, and they will stillgo to that other community.
So, you will have to be very resilientand persistent and committed to your
(25:08):
craft and the craft of your community,because this, you know, it only
gets harder, you know, as you grow.
You know, if you have 10 members in onecommunity meeting, you want 20 in the
next one, and if 20 comes to come tothe next one, then you want a hundred.
And that makes it harder andharder, because at the end of the
day, you want to impact people.
That's what communities, communitybuilders do, solve problems,
(25:31):
help people, impact people.
And I, anyway, you know thatpatience is, is a, you know, a key
component of building community.
So, you know, genuineness, authenticityabout what your community is about,
you know, making sure that you'reproviding enough avenues for people
to connect with each other, not justwith the experts, quote on quote.
And, and number three, you know,being patient, you know, and just,
(25:54):
just you know, pushing forward.
If you truly believe in what you'redoing and that you are making a
difference, just pushing forward, youknow, that's the, that's the way to go.
Yeah, and I'd love to hearabout the social learning that's
happening within the community.
So, you've really set the stage forthat to happen with peer-to-peer
connections that you just described.
So yeah, tell us some details about thesocial learning happening in hacking HR.
(26:16):
Yeah.
Well, there are, you know, we have our,our mentoring feature within our own
platform, but I think the, the one, andby the way, it's, it's been very ad hoc.
It's not, it, it wasn'tdone by design, right.
And, and now, it's a little bitmore by design with the certificate
programs that we're gonna be doing.
But in an ad hoc, on a, not on an ad hocbasis, it happened that whenever we were
(26:40):
doing an event, we started encouragingpeople to connect with each other;
to share resources, to share insightsand ideas; to ask questions that could
help them get an answer, but could helpeverybody else who had the same question
or, and didn't wanna ask it, you know,to kind of like get an answer, right?
So, the way we, we have put forwardthis idea of social learning through
(27:04):
the events that we do is just byencouraging people to, to, to be
present, to connect with each other,to share resources with each other.
Even if the panel, which more often, youknow, more often than not in our events,
we do panels and the panels have theirown agenda, you know, with a guidelines
and questions, and they cannot necessarilylook at what people are talking about
in the, in, in the comments, but weencourage people in the comments; for
(27:27):
example, when we're doing this live, toconnect with each other, you know, to,
to make sure that they are helping eachother, and it's super interesting, you
know, when we do these events, becausewe do an event, somebody asks a question
and literally out of the blue, like,you know, 10 other people are saying, oh
yeah, you can go here, you can go there.
I found this resource amazing.
I read this book that was great.
So, everybody's helping eachother, and that to me is
(27:50):
beautiful because it's organic.
It's very organic.
So our social learninghas been very organic.
Now, it's going to be more bydesign and intentionally with the
certificate programs that we'redoing, because we are including,
and again, this is an experiment.
We're gonna give it a try, but our,our certificate programs, the, the
classes will be live, there will beassessment that will be group, group work.
(28:12):
There will be group peer reviewof other groups', works or work.
So, that's more by design, right?
We don't want to leave that just, youknow, to sheer, you know, happenstance.
You know, we wanna make sure thatwe are building those intentional
pieces of, you know, collaborativework and social, social learning.
But at the events that we havedone so far, it just happened.
It just happens organically.
(28:34):
That's great.
That's, sort of, the bestway I think for it to happen.
It is sustainable.
Yeah.
Yeah, and, you know, you've mentioneda few different challenges along
the way, but are there any othersthat you'd want to just highlight
for people who are learning aboutbuilding communities themselves?
Like any lessons learned about creatinga global professional community?
Maybe just the only one is that it'shard, you know, it's it's, it's not easy.
(28:56):
And, yeah, you know, we have allthe tools, and most of them are
free, until certain point of course,but, you know, you can go, you need
to create your, you know, your,social media assets for something.
You go to Canva with a free accountor you decided in PowerPoint.
I don't know.
Every, by the way, we use Canvaevery day now for everything we do.
But I started doing this all onPowerPoint, so you know, I can
(29:16):
go back and show you the 2017,the September 2017 banners for
everything that we did on PowerPoint.
And, it was kind of annoying,but that's what we did.
That's what we had available, right.
So, you have that.
You can create a free account onLinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram
and start promoting what you're doing.
Reaching out to people right now is theeasiest thing, and not, not everybody
(29:38):
will say yes to your invitations todo something, and still to, you know,
today to us as well known as we are,so many people either ignore me or
say no to my invitations, and that'sokay, you know, I just move along and,
and go to the next or move forwardand you know, go to the next thing.
But people will say no and not becausethey don't like what you do, it's
just because they probably don't knowyou or maybe, you know, a million
(30:00):
other people are inviting them to dosomething, and they have to be more
selective about how they use their time.
But right now you can just goto LinkedIn and say, who's the
experts in social learning?
And, you go to social learning and youfind, well, you know, Nicole and Katie.
Let me reach out to Nicole and Katie andsend them an email and say, "Hey, Nicole,
Katie, I'm doing this thing, I would loveto talk to you about this, you know, do
you have, you know, half an hour, youknow, within the next whatever, right?
(30:22):
So, you can do that for free.
So, you know, it's, it's, you have thetools available, but it's still not easy
because as, as, because the, since thetools are available, everybody, you know,
not everybody, but a lot of the peoplewill try to do the same thing, right?
So, you're gonna becompeting for attention.
You know, you're gonna be competingfor with other folks that are equally
energized as you are to build a community.
(30:44):
So, it's not easy, you know, be patient,but again, as I mentioned before, if
you believe in what you are tryingto do, you know, just, just do it.
Begin small, you know, celebrate thesmall, excuse me, the small successes
and they just, just take it from there.
Amazing, and do you have anyfavorite moments or success
stories that really stand out?
(31:05):
Well, a couple of years ago, was ita couple of, yeah, we are in 2024.
Two years ago, we had, we do a virtualconference every March, and, two years
ago, we had our highest amount of people.
Last year was a little bit less ofpeople, but I was expecting that,
just because, you know, we are, a lotof people are, kind of, like moving,
moving on from just participatingin virtual events to now going more
(31:25):
to in-person events, given that, youknow, it seems that we are at the tail
end of, of Covid, but we don't know.
But in, in 2022, we had 50,000 peopleregister to our conference, and that made
us the largest HR event in the world.
And again, we don't spend anymoney sponsoring sponsored content.
You know, we don't bring, you know,Barack Obama to speak at an event.
(31:47):
I wish, you know, but we don't havethose super big names, you know,
we just have a cohort of incrediblethought leaders that are on the ground
making the magic happen every day.
And what they say, they don'tjust say because they are asking
others in a survey, what do youthink is the top priority for HR?
Oh, this one.
And then they repeat that ina talk as if they knew how to
(32:08):
leave that in reality, right?
We are bringing the people thatare telling you, my top priority
is hiring diverse talent.
And, how do I know that?
Because I need to hirediverse talent in my company.
That's a company mandate and I amliving through that every day of my,
of my, you know, my tenure as a leader,as an HR leader in this company.
So, we bring the people that areon the trenches, making this magic
(32:31):
happen and fighting the battlesthat HR has to fight, right?
So, so that's why we had allthis, you know, amazing, kind of,
traction for that, for that event.
Last year was less people, and I'm hopingthis year, you know, we're gonna be kind
of like, like, like on, on an average oflike about 20,000 registered participants,
which is still a pretty good number.
Amazing
So, so that's been a key momentfor me, you know, bringing so many
(32:53):
people together to our events.
And yeah, so having the opportunity,you know, we expanded our team a little
bit, you know, with, with people doingmore content and, you know, and, kind
of, like helping us grow and thinkabout strategically, you know, how do
we create great content and package,package that content in a great way.
(33:14):
So, all of that has been anamazing, sort of, journey.
That is absolutely amazing.
And, that kind of leads me to mynext question too, cause you're
a thought leader on the future ofwork, so I'm curious to hear, you
know, how does gathering people incommunities like Hacking HR help
us move forward towards betterworkplaces and ultimately better worlds
.Yeah, that's a good question.
I think, you know, the truth is thatthe nature of the challenges that we
(33:38):
are dealing with right now is incrediblycomplex to be solved by individuals,
or individual companies, or individualregions, or even individual countries.
We need to bring people togetherto solve these complex challenges.
You know, I'm talking about, forexample, climate change, right?
(33:59):
And the implications of climatechange, climate diaspora, human
migration because of climate change.
Imagine the impact that that willhave and has today in so many, you
know, countries and, sort of, thebusiness landscape in those countries.
It's impossible for a single one ofthose countries or a single one of
those companies to say, how are wegoing to manage the influx of talent
(34:23):
coming into this city or this country?
Because they are pretty much,sort of, like climate change,
migration sort of people, right?
So, we have to think about that together.
You see the war going on in Ukraineand the war going on between, you know,
in Israel and, and Palestine, right?
So, you think about this levelof complexity of some of these
(34:45):
challenges that we're dealing with.
And, they can't be solved alone byindividual people; again, by individual
companies or individual countries.
So, bringing people together allows us totap into the collective intelligence of
everybody and say, how do we solve this?
Right?
How do we, how do we havethis difficult problem?
How do we get, how do we resolve it,but how do we resolve it in a way?
(35:08):
That not only works for thatcompany or that country, but
that works for everybody else.
That works for all of us.
And to me, bringing peopletogether to have those kinds of
conversations is the way to go.
It's, it's an unbeatable wayto solve complex challenges.
That's how we evolved to beginwith, you know, because of
collaboration and cooperation.
So, let's just go back to the roots,to the basics and say we have these
(35:31):
complex challenges, how do we resolvethem in a way that benefits everybody?
And to do that, we gotta do it together.
Wonderful.
Thanks Nicole.
Did you have anything to add?
Oh no, I've just enjoyed, you know,Enrique, this isn't the first time we've
gotten to chat and I feel so lucky.
But, if you just listen to, I mean,it's, it's only been a little over
30 minutes and there's so many highlypractical and applicable things that
(35:55):
one can take and start working with.
And, I just love that, because it reflectseverything I know about you and how you
run your brand as well, which is really tomake it accessible, practical, you know,
hands on and, and not to live in theoryand like, you know, the big enterprise.
Maybe we could do this, but liketo really, this is for the people
who are getting their hands dirtyat work, and how we can help them.
(36:17):
I just love that so much.
So I, I mean, you know, as we wrap up,I'll we'll say it a million times, but
thank you really, thank you so muchfor coming on the podclass today like
we've learned so much from you already.
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
It was a, it was a great conversation,and, and I'm hoping that people,
you know, those who want to createcommunities, including those
communities that will perhaps evencompete with Hacking HR, go for it.
(36:39):
You know, just send me a message and Iwill be happy to tell you all that I've
learned, even if I know that eventuallyyou're gonna be competing with us.
Because at the end of the day, whenI think about HR, in particular HR,
but this is true for all, all type ofexpertise, but in HR there are about,
yeah, I think it's something like 10million people in HR in the world.
That are, you know, no singlecommunity will ever be able
(37:01):
to serve all of those people.
Just think about SHRM, for example,and I don't, I don't like talking about
them too much, because I, I'm not muchof a fan of the way they do things.
But after 75 years of existence,they only have like 300,000 members.
And, I say only, yeah, it's stilla big number, but it's not a big
number in the big scheme of thingswhen, you know, when you think about
300,000 members after 75 years in acommunity of 12 million professionals.
(37:24):
And, that's why, that's becausea lot of other HR people want
to find something different.
They want a differentrepresentation to their voice.
They want a different outlet towhat they're looking for, and
they, you know, they don't fitthat neither do we by the way.
You, we, you know, that there are peoplethat come to us and they are like,
well, you know, you are great or, oryou're cool, but you are not exactly
(37:45):
what I'm looking for and that's fine.
You know, so that means that thereare spaces in this market and in any
other market to create something thatcaters and responds specifically to
what these communities are, to whatthese groups of people are looking for.
And, all of us will havea different offering.
And, that's the beauty of it, right?
People have the power of choice atthe end of the day and they can say,
(38:05):
well then, how can I try to find this?
But in this other group,I find this other thing.
So when I need this other thing, I goto that group; and when I need what
Hacking HR offers, I go to hacking HR.
So, that to me is the ultimate, kindof, inspiration, so to speak for those
who are seeking to create a community.
And, they're like, well,there's so much competition.
Yeah, well, find whatthey're not doing and do it.
(38:26):
Absolutely, and is there anything thatI didn't ask before we wrap up that you
think is really important for people toknow on this topic or about hacking HR?
No, other than, if they wantto get involved, just go
to our website, HackingHR.
io, check it out.
We got a lot of good stuff in there.
Reach out to me, you know,particularly via LinkedIn or
via email enrique@hackingHR.io.
(38:47):
Let me know if there's anythingthat we can do for you.
And, you know, I'm, I'm hereand you know, our team is here
and the community is here.
So, yeah, that's that.
Thank you for, thank youso much for inviting me.
Absolutely.
So yeah, on behalf of our, you know,team here at Your Instructional Designer,
we just wanna thank you once againfor being part of the podclass today.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for inviting me.
I appreciate it.
We hope you're feeling as inspiredas we are to take these ideas and
(39:10):
create communities where people canshare, learn, and innovate together.
Here's a quick recap of the keysto effective community building.
Ensure the community providesvalue for those who join.
Be transparent about the intentand purpose of the community.
Make the community accessible.
Encourage collaboration, cooperation,and connection among members, for
(39:32):
example, through social learningelements like events, peer-to-peer
connections, and resource sharing.
Identify one doable step to taketo begin building the community and
celebrate small successes along the way.
Have a marketing plan in place tospread the word about the community.
Embrace the reality that growingand sustaining a community
takes resilience and patience.
(39:54):
And, put feedback mechanisms inplace to help the community evolve.
Now it's your turn.
For your experiment, you'llbrainstorm ways to grow an existing
community or start one from scratch,thinking about how you can adapt
the essential elements discussedin today's episode to your context.
You can find the full experimentbrief in the show notes or The Social
(40:14):
Learning Lab community on Facebook.
In other words, you can think aboutcommunity, in community, share your
ideas, get feedback and insights frompeers, and comment on others' ideas.
If you enjoyed this episode, pleaseleave a review, like subscribe or share
so we can continue to build a supportivegroup of social learning enthusiasts.
(40:34):
Until next time, keep makinglearning that matters.
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