"Think Headlight not Spotlight": Storytelling for Social Learning

Stories are a way to connect with those around us, sharing experiences and memories. We learn from those who are authentic and share their struggles that we can relate to. In this episode, the Your ID team delves into the captivating world of storytelling with guest, Hadiya Nurridin, and its profound impact on the realm of education and social learning.

 

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Your Hosts

Katie Hynes, Instructional Designer

Nicole Papaioannou Lugara, Founder & Learning Strategist

Diego Diaz, Jr Digital Designer

Rocio Granela, Jr Project Manager

 

Special Guest

Hadiya Nuriddin, CEO and Chief Learning Strategist at Duets Learning

Nurridin has over two decades of experience in learning design and development. With Duets Learning, she has helped countless individuals and organizations achieve their goals through her expert knowledge and guidance. She is a thought leader who frequently speaks at conferences internationally, is the author of two learning and development books and several articles, and teaches courses on learning design for the Association for Talent Development (ATD) and the University of San Diego. She is also ATD’s 2023 Outstanding Professional Award recipient.

Interested in finding out more about Duets Learning

Connect with Hadiya on LinkedIn

 

Mentioned in This Episode

📗Book: StoryTraining: Selecting and Shaping Stories that Connect, Hadiya Nurridin

 

Check us out at

https://www.yourinstructionaldesigner.com

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Once upon a time, there was aninstructional designer who wanted

(00:02):
to create learning experiences wherepeople could share their stories.
But what if nobody chimed in?
What if the stories people chosewere entertaining but not relevant?
Or what if storytelling took toomuch time and got everyone off track?
Hi Lab Mates!
Welcome to the Social Learning Lab, apodclass about social learning at work.
In today's episode, we'll chatwith an expert who will share what

(00:25):
she knows about bringing learnerstogether through the power of story.
Hi Labmates, I'm Katie.
Today I'm here withNicole, Rocio, and Diego.
We are so excited to welcome HadiyaNuriddin to the Social Learning Lab today.
Hadiya has over two decades of experiencein learning, design and development.
With Duets Learning, she has helpedcountless individuals and organizations

(00:48):
achieve their goals through herexpert knowledge and guidance.
In addition to project work, Hadia isa thought leader, who frequently speaks
at conferences internationally; is theauthor of two learning and development
books and several articles; and teachescourses on learning design for the
Association for Talent Developmentand the University of San Diego.

(01:09):
Finally, she is ATDs 2023 TalentDevelopment Outstanding Professional
Award recipient, and she alsoreceived The Guild Master Award
from the Learning 2023 Conference.
So, thank you so muchfor joining us, Hadiya..
Thank you very much for having me.
Yeah, we're really excited.
I read your book StoryTraining andI'm really excited to begin asking

(01:32):
you some questions about that.
So, you wrote thisStoryTraining: Selecting and
Shaping Stories that Connect.
So, I wanna know, first of all, yourthoughts on, what is it about stories
that helps us connect with each other?
Well, for me, personally, I thinkthat everybody's favorite topic is
themselves; and when you tell a story,if people can recognize themselves in

(01:57):
that narrative, because you, sometimesit's frustrating when people just
say storytelling, when it's not.
We've all heard stories that are boring.
We've all heard stories that we don'tresonate with, and so it's not just story.
I mean that's not thing.
It's the work that we've put intothe story with finding what will
connect with audiences, what can wesay to help them recognize themselves

(02:20):
to put them on that journey.
You know, our goal as wellas, as storytellers, is not
just to take an experience andtransplant it into their heads.
We want to make that sort ofconnection of fusion between my
experience and your experience, andnot even really match the details.
It's that core that,that human experience.

(02:41):
You know, you may not have done anythingthat you consider exciting, climbing
a mountain, you know, all that stuff.
However, we've all felt lost.
We've all felt fear.
We've all felt that.
And so, in your stories, if you'reable to make that shine, then you can
connect to people and sort of reflecttheir experience back to them; and

(03:03):
I think that ultimately makes peoplefeel seen; and they're able to go on
that journey with you because theyfeel like they're alongside you.
Yeah, and I, I know the word connection,Stories that Connect, that's part of your
subtitle and it is a big theme throughoutthe book, using stories in this way.
So, and, you know, we being obsessed withsocial learning here, you know, connection

(03:25):
is a thing that we think about a lot too.
So, I'm curious what you thinkin your experience, the role that
connection plays in workplace learning.
You know, I, I've been on my own sort ofjourney with connection for about five
years or so, because before I didn'treally see that connection with social

(03:47):
learning with other people; and, how thatconnection helps us support others and
how we can feel supported in the valueof that; and, now, I do, and I think
one of the things that I, I learned orthat resonates most with me is that, you

(04:07):
know, the, the classroom experience Ithink, can often feel very artificial.
It feels sort of isolatedfrom the work experience.
And, the more we can combine thosetwo together and mimic what they're
experiencing in real life, you know, sofor example, if, you know, in a, in a,
sometimes when we're designing a classand putting together, we're just like

(04:28):
looking for any sort of exercise thatmatches the objective and does this work?
Are they talking to each other?
Blah, blah, blah.
But, I've sort of taken steps nowof saying, well, how will this look
like on the job, on the actual job?
Who will be involved?
Will they be by themselves doing this,or will other people be involved?
So, I'm trying to extend that experienceoutside of the classroom into work.

(04:50):
So, I guess to answer, your,your question is, because work
for the most part is social.
Social doesn't just me talking to oneanother and being around people, in my
mind it's just, you know, having theexperience to have to support others and
have them support, even if you're a loneinstructional designer or developer.
The people that you're serving arepart of that ecosystem or part of

(05:13):
that community; and so trying tocreate authentic experience, almost
requires a social aspect to it.
If not, then it's artificial and it'ssort of separated and lobbed on to the
end just to do an exercise, because theyhaven't talked to each other in a while.
But, you know, the truth is, is ifthat's how it's gonna be on the job,
then that's how it should be in theexperience as much as as feasible.

(05:38):
And, that was of course, a littlebit more difficult to do when
you have asynchronous e-learning.
But there, you know, there have beensome ways of having little videos or
having coaches that you can talk to,that you can click on throughout.
So, there's ways to sort of, you know,you know, create that, but at the end
of the day, I think what you alwayshave to answer, you know, for yourself
and through your research and your ownexperiences is it's not just sociable.

(06:01):
What does social mean?
Just like storytelling.
It's not just stories.
It's not just people.
You're talking to people.
What does it mean?
What does it do to enhance theexperience in the classroom and
how does it connect to the workthat we doing outside on the job?
Yeah, and that's really important,because the, also, the more authentic
the experience is, the more investedthe people are gonna be, because they're

(06:24):
gonna be able to connect themselves inthat moment to probably a situation that
they have been in or a situation thatthey're gonna encounter themselves in;
and if they can't make that connection,then more than likely they're just not
gonna be invested in what you're making.
Because we're not often, it's notjust the skills on the job that we're
teaching, it's we're teaching them howto do it along with those skills, but

(06:49):
how do we incorporate others, you know,how do we- I, I remember this class
that I, it was a part of a class that Itaught for ATD Scenario-based eLearning.
And, there was this sort of justabbreviate this, this class that was an
example and it was just HTML asynchronous,nothing special at all about it, but

(07:11):
what it was is it was teaching doctorshow to handle situations where the,
the living will of a patient said,do not resuscitate, but the family's
like, you had better resuscitate.
And so, how does a doctor navigate that?
So obviously, there's nomultiple choice there of do you

(07:32):
just flip the switch or not.
I mean, you can't do that.
So, it was, it was the knowledge thatthey needed to make that decision, but
it was teaching the behaviors behindit as well that they had to reach out
to different, you know, to clergy, tolawyers cause it was state by state.
They had to, rec they, it wasteaching, not just that decision
of this is what a living will isand this is how to communicate.

(07:54):
It was throwing you in that environmentand saying, who can I depend on?
Who's going to be a part of this decision?
It's not just me making it,it's a community of making
it, and I need their support.
How do I reach out for that support?
And just the way the course was built,taught them that in addition to the skills
needed to require something like that.

(08:16):
So, it just creates this,created a very authentic
experience, with just HTML links.
No, no video, nothing.
Just pictures.
That was it.
So, I I, I'll never forget that class.
It was really, it was interesting,and I only saw a sample of it.
I didn't even see the whole thing, butit's like that was the first time I saw a
really good reflection in asynchronouslylearning, and something that was a

(08:38):
great consequence, but could have beendone in a very, almost rudimentary way.
Yeah, I think it goes back to whatyou were saying about intention like
you have to be intentional about thoseactivities that you're designing.
It's not just an activity to givepeople an activity and say, "oh,
here, let's just get them together.
Let's get them to talk", like you said, nolike what is the purpose of them talking?

(08:59):
Because maybe they don'thave to talk, right?
Like maybe there's no purposeof them talking to each other.
So, what are we really tryingto, what are we really trying
to get out of this activity?
And I think that, that part, people areso focused on those learning objectives
that they forget that everythingthat you do has to have an outcome,
an intention, not just a learningobjectives that you're designing.

(09:20):
Cause there's the, there'slearning outcome and there's the
performance outcome, you know.
Exactly.
What do we expect them to be ableto do, and what does that look like,
and how can we tap into that as wellthroughout being realistic of course,
because we have, so, we have a lotlimitations and what we can we can create.
Especially, sometimes it's the technology,sometimes we just don't have time to
create this immersive experience theway we, we would like to, but yeah,

(09:43):
like I said, even with, with thatclass, there are some, some really
basic ways that we can pull that off.
I was going to say it couldhave been a really awful class.
Like I could just picture, youknow, what is a living will X, Y, Z?
What?
Yeah.
But, instead, they use story, and sothat's such an interesting example
and it's a hyper, it was likeyou said, a hyper social moment.
So not even, not the learning, but thething they have to do is hyper social.

(10:04):
They had to talk to these communities,these different members of the community.
Really interesting.
A really great example.
I appreciated that in your book,you talk about, you know, ways
to use stories for training.
So, I mean, we're all familiar withstories, but you really, you know,
took us into the mind of a, a learningdesigner, you know, and how can we, a
facilitator, how can we, you know, bringin the stories and use them to achieve

(10:26):
our goals like you were just saying.
So, you talk about like in termsof connection, you know, ways like
bridging the course to reality.
So, you kind of touched on that alreadywith your example, linking old and
new and then also creating empathy.
So, I'd love to hear you speak alittle bit more about any of those
really, about how you see themconnect, creating that connection.

(10:47):
Yeah.
So, I started sort of delving intothis idea of a science behind story,
and one thing that I emphasize whenI talk about all these different
strategies is you, you really,you, first of all, you need intent.
That's the number onething that's important.
But whatever you're, you're trying totap into when it comes to something

(11:07):
like empathy is, how does thatconnect your performance specifically?
A story is a tool.
That's all.
There are many ways to get people tofeel a connection to someone else.
There's many ways to sort ofreinforce that, that, that empathy.
You know, there's one thing I think Imay say this in the book, and there's

(11:28):
maybe one, one thing I could haveregret is this idea that you can create
empathy like you, you can't reallycreate it all you can do, just like with
learning, we can't force people to learn.
What we do is we create environments thatsupport it, and sometimes some people we
know are going to just shut off as soonas you try getting a little too deep.
I always tell people, don'topen doors, you can't close.

(11:50):
You know, when you start to get alittle too deep, people will shut off.
But I think in our minds, we think empathyis like this, "oh, we trigger this,
people are gonna be so happy, and so"...
no, that's not how it works.
People respond to this,this in different ways.
So, you have to be, you know,have a lot of intent and
think, what am I trying to do?
And, people are going to,you know, respond to them, to

(12:11):
respond to it in multiple ways.
You know, I think the most importantthing, or what I just try to get to
again, is that, that authenticityof the moment that we are preparing
them for, and what that's going tolook like, and whatever comes with
that, I wanna bring it along with me.
And, it's not always this deep emotion.

(12:32):
It's not always.
It's just preparing them for whateverenvironment they are going to have to
work in, what they're gonna navigate.
And, it can't, it's not always like we,we think about, you know, soft skills.
Yeah, if I am learning leadershipskills and I'm in a meeting with an
employee and I have to give them some,some feedback that's not the greatest,

(12:57):
that's automatically gonna trigger someemotion and we do want you to feel what
it's like to be in the person receivingthat feedback with the shoes they're
gonna be in and how they're gonna feel.
So, there's that, but there's alsotechnical training as well where
people think, where's the emotion that?
You know, I started my career in technicalsupport and it was a lot of emotion.

(13:18):
My technical support, because it was veryintimidating, it was very scary, it was
very nerve wracking, and you didn't knowwhat twist and turns things would take.
You didn't know what they would come upwith, and this was before you could just
be like, "Let me dial into your computer".
It was just all, what are you seeing?
What are you seeing?
What's happening?
You're too quiet.
What's going, do you havea kid that can help you?
I mean, this is like we were in Windows95, you know, so this was a brand new

(13:42):
concept that people had the computersin their home, let alone know how to
do their own tech support, which isreally what they were doing, and we
were walking them, them through it.
So, there was a lot of sensitivitythat had to be involved.
There was a lot of patience.
There was a lot of, and so it, when welearned, taught them about tech support,
it wasn't just about, I mean this is,of course, I wasn't thinking this, this

(14:04):
is all in retrospect, but when I thinkabout approaching a topic like that
now, that's like the number one thingwe should have learned, was how to
help somebody navigate that which is awhole different skill than me doing it.
A whole different skillthan me editing those files.
It's walking people who have neverseen this before, how to edit a file

(14:24):
and how to type it just perfectly,or else the consequences, they will
not be able to boot into windowsand open up that file again, right.
So, those were the type, there's alwayssomething connected to it, even like
payroll, you know, and, and all of that.
So, really trying to, what is theex, what does that really look like?
And, it's hard to get outta SMEswhat that looks like, to be honest.

(14:46):
You know, it's a challenging thing toget what that essence is, but as much as
you can, you know, try to create it, Ithink, you know, we, what, what I want
people to do to walk away from training.
It's not that I took training.
I want them to feellike I experienced that.
I lived that.
I did that.
Not that I was trained in it,but I did it and I know what to

(15:06):
do, because I experienced it.
And that, you can only bringabout that feeling in some
sort of authentic situation.
I also like to stress that interactiondoesn't happen through the hand,
it happens through the mind, right?
So just click, click, click,click, click is not interaction.
You know, interaction is evaluating, it'scritical thinking, so you don't have to

(15:28):
have click, click, click, click, click.
You can just ask compelling questionsand find a way, a consequential way
for them to answer those questions,and sometimes it's offline.
Sometimes it's go have aconversation with your boss.
Sometimes it's have a conversation orget a story from someone else about a bad
customer service experience they've had.
These types of things can happen offlineand, sort of, add to that experience.

(15:50):
So yeah, authenticity is keyand I think stories can lend
to, definitely lend to that.
But a story isn't always justA to B, it's also involving.
It can involve other peopleand the environment as well.
Yeah, sure, and, and you, you know,you shared about, so like from the
facilitator, you know, thinking of storiesto incorporate in the learning experience,

(16:11):
but then also inviting learners to shareparticipants to share their stories.
So, I'm wondering if youcould speak a little bit about
that and what you've noticed?
You know, how that affects the waythat they connect with each other?
Whether you've noticed vulnerability,empathy coming into play
there with the story sharing?
So, you know, I, I stress thisall the time, that the point of

(16:32):
storytelling is not for you toget up there and tell a story.
That is absolutely not the point.
The point is for you to create anenvironment where people feel comfortable,
even if I would say sharing their storieswould be great, but it's also just tapping
in, so they don't have to do it verbally.
But just tapping into a memoryof that, if she felt that, then I

(16:52):
felt that I can feel that as well.
So yeah, there's that story that Itell in the beginning of the book about
how I was, but some of this may havebeen before, teaching managers, even
though I had never managed before.
And, one thing that came up, Ideveloped this class, one of my, I
still consider it my, my flagshipcourse, the first comprehensive course

(17:14):
I created was in project management.
And so, I created all these, I was reallyheavily into the Sims, so I started.
If it weren't for the Sims, I wouldn'tbe the designer I am now, because the
Sims definitely helped me understandsort of spatial space and narrative
and flow and connection is reallythe how I learned all of this really.

(17:35):
So, I was just into that and I said, "I'mgonna dabble in scenarios," and I'm gonna
have all these different characters.
And, I had one character who wasvery hostile, you know, throughout.
And, you know, it was just sort of likea character I came up with, but it really
became sort of typical in that the, thegroup that had the hostile character
talked the most, they connected the most.

(17:58):
The ones that had the goodcharacters barely even engaged.
And, I'm like, isn't that typicalthat the employees that are the worst
take up all of our energy and thenwe wonder why the good one quits?
And, this one says we'veignored the good one.
So, that sort of almost became,became a part of it, right?
And so, sometimes, some groups would getso angry with this fictional character;

(18:23):
and it didn't occur to me until yearslater that what they were doing was they
were tapping into their own memories.
They were giving this woman backstoriesthat obviously did not exist.
I didn't say that.
I didn't say that she, you know, wasa divorced alcoholic like you are
referring back to someone in your life.
That your manager that you had thatwere bringing, was bringing home their

(18:47):
home stress and dumping it on your team.
Like, that's what you are connectingthis with, and I thought, wow, this
is, this is sort of interesting.
But one thing that I had to do was, youknow, I think the thing that reminded me
what this character came from was, that itwas, I was earlier in my career, but way
earlier than that, I was that character.

(19:09):
Like I was her cause I was madthat I had a degree and I had
a job that I didn't wanna have.
And so, I was, I was kind of hostile,you know, in that environment.
And so, I began to take offense thatthey were taking offense to her.
And so, I remember once in oneclass, I just had to just stop and
say "lets stop this for a minute".

(19:30):
The goal is not to run to a,her name is Darla, the goal
is not to run to fire, Darla.
Cause that's all they werecoming, how can we get rid of her?
That's not the goal.
I was like, if you've ever triedto just fire someone for the
attitude, good luck, because that'snot the way this works anyway.
And so, we were able to, sortof, talk about her in a way of

(19:50):
what is, what is Darla afraid of?
Like what?
Why do you think she's reacting that way?
And so, as we begin to talk, thepeople at the table begin to really
go, she's making me feel incompetent.
Right.
She's making me, so they completelydivorced her themselves from what Darla
was happening and focus only on herinability; and again, she didn't exist,

(20:13):
but her inability to do her job andmy inability to get her to do their
job made me feel like a bad manager;and that's what I'm mad about, which
sort of goes back to why they eventook the class in the first place.
You know, so all this, just from thisone character, all these emotions
were able to, to come up and beaddressed that weren't part of my

(20:35):
design, that weren't part of the class.
I thought they would just belike, ah, ha ha, funny kid.
You know?
They were getting really in sense.
So, yeah, that was a, a, you know, agood example to me of how I was able to
just, even unknowingly, use somethinglike that to really trigger emotions;
and then, the social aspects of it,of them working together; and then,
them able to reflect and examine whatwas really, what was really happening

(20:59):
between this fictional character of themand then everyone else and their team.
That, that's powerful.
You were able to tap into everybody'sworkplace trauma all at once.
You know, and here I am 27,like what's everybody's problem?
And even, you, you were facilitating,you were facilitating on your own
workplace trauma was activated,so that's like unintentional.

(21:22):
You know, it's, it's funny.
Yeah.
So,
It just really honors that we come to workand to learning at work with all of our
stories and all of our experiences, right?
And so, like you said, whether welike intentionally say, tell me your
story, you know, like whether it'slike, tell the story or think of
the story, the stories are there.
So, I just really love that you're makingspace for emotion and for past experience.

(21:45):
Yeah, and it's I have this, oneof the reason why a lot of people
are resistant to so is 'causethey don't wanna be vulnerable.
They don't wanna, andthey're worried about it.
And so, one of my classes I have likethis line where it's like open and
nope, you know, where anagram of oneanother, where you need to know where
the line is, where you're gonna be open.
And then, there's this, I'm not gonnatouch this, but this is the, this

(22:08):
is the thing, the more skill, themore intentional skill you develop
in storytelling, the note begins toshrink and the open begins because
you know what your triggers are.
You know how far you wanna go, andonce you develop a skill around it.
Then you're absolutely able to say,you know, carve out a piece of this

(22:30):
story, but leave this piece alone.
You know, because I know thatI don't wanna open that up.
First of all, it may just open up somuch, not just for you, but like with
Darla, you know, here I'm innocentlyoffering this sacrificial lamb, and
it just completely opened up all thesethings that I didn't know would open up.
So, these things may not justopen things for you, but for

(22:52):
the people in the room as well.
So, I would, there is one end, Iwould say be careful, but I would also
say it's really more about intent.
You know, there's being careful,but there's also being intentional
about what you wanna trigger.
Because at the end of the day,that's all you have is intent.
You know, people say, what'sthe point of the story?
What is your point?

(23:13):
I personally believe that pointbelongs to the listener.
It doesn't belong, I can't dictate whatthe point in my story is gonna be to you.
And, we all know this, because we'vetold stories to people; and then, they,
you know, you tell this whole story andthey're like, what happened to the puppy?
Puppy?
You mean the puppy I mentioned inthe very beginning like, there's
nothing to do with the puppy.
What are you talking about a puppy for?

(23:34):
You know, but they, because theyreally are worried about these puppies,
that is, they're filtering what I'msaying through their own experience.
What happened to the dog?
You know, you're just like,what are you talking about?
So, they're gonna take away their point.
So, there's different strategies you canuse to make your, bring your attention
closer to the point, cause we, we wantour attention to come close to the point,

(23:56):
you don't want it to completely match it.
Again, cause in order for themto really resonate with that
story, they have to filter it.
You want them to look insidethemselves and say, I've been there.
You know, you wanna do that as well.
So you don't have point, they have point.
You have intention.
So, all you can do is sitforth on that, that intention.
Yeah, I, I feel like the wayyou receive a story is kind of

(24:19):
personalized and it depends on yourlife experience and the things.
You know, it's like when you're watchrewatching a movie, showing it to
your friends, and like every timethere's a scene that you reacted to,
you're like looking at them to seeif they reacted to it; and they're
like, no, they're like, total calm;and you're like, what do you mean?
That was like the best part of the movie.
So, definitely like apersonalized experience.

(24:40):
Before I went on my own, I hada of credit card debt and I knew
that was the number one thing.
So of course, you're supposed to savemoney before you start a business,
but I said, no, I'm actually goingto pay off my debt, instead, so I
started a business with no savings.
Instead, I pay off my debt.
I since ran it back up, but thepoint is, the point is, is that

(25:00):
so in order to pay for it all, Iactually had two full-time jobs.
One was remote and one was onsite, but they were headquartered
in the same building.
So, there was an interesting intricacyof how that actually occurred, but
I was working them at the same time.
Now, later, I did it for about a yearand had enough money to pay off my debt.

(25:23):
Now, for a few years later, Ibegan to tell that story and to
me, I'm just, I'm a American hero.
I mean, that's, that's an amazingthing to do like that's, that's
awesome and great because working twojobs to me is an exemplary example.
Why everyone, every family member I'veever had has had two jobs, three jobs.

(25:45):
I worked two jobs foryears and years and years.
That is the most basic thingyou can do is work two jobs.
I don't know how else you're gonnaget the money if you can't just
call up your parents and be likegiving, like, I couldn't do that.
I had no net.
So I had to make a net.
I remember the first time I wrote thisstory in one of my graduate classes.
I have a master's in writing I got 10years ago, and the people in the room were

(26:08):
like, "oh my God, you're so, you're so,I wish I could do something like that".
Now, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, I get the feedback cause youknow, we had to write feedback,
actual feedback on the back, right?
So, I remember I went to CornerBakery and I had my little lunch.
I said, "let me read thisglowing phrase for this story,"
not just for my incrediblewriting, but for me as a person.

(26:29):
They went off on me.
Everyone was like, "what?
Isn't that like stealing?
Isn't it stealing time?
You lied to all those people.
You've lied to your mom".
I was completely floored.
I thought, "okay, they're just jealous".
As years gone on, I've told this storyagain and I get the same reaction.

(26:51):
People are just offended.
And, you know, now of course,we talk about sort of the quiet
quitting and all that stuff.
So, this was before then, but likeyou're the reason why people don't let
people work remote and this, all of that.
So, I was really surprised.
Never to my face though.
Never once to my face,always in the feedback.
You're so great in the feedback.
You are terrible, ethically wrong, youknow, and I get two things from that.

(27:14):
Two things from that.
One is that's why I, sort of,learned that again, people are
listening through their experiencelike they, they just can't imagine.
I think my, my, the editor of my book,cause I was gonna put it in my book,
but I took it out 'cause the editorwrote this doesn't make you sound
like you think, it makes you sound.
What?
Okay, so I took it out likeI'm not dealing with it.

(27:36):
So, years later, I, sort of, reflectedon that and think two things.
One is that again, people are filteringthrough their own experience as I
filtered that experience through mine.
But one thing in the story thatI never put, I never talked about
the reason I did it was because I,it was a trauma informed response.
I had no choice and I was the oneworking a hundred hours a week.

(28:00):
I was the one who gave up everything, youknow, to make sure that my coworkers were
still supported, and yet, I could do this.
I never talked about that.
I was just like, aha, Ihave two jobs and you don't.
You know, so there was that emotionalpiece that I never revealed and
how vulnerable that left me.
Not only was I vulnerable before, butpossibly made myself be more vulnerable.

(28:23):
I could have lost both.
One time I was in the elevator withboth, both my bosses and they didn't
know it, and I just, I everyonedo a whole sitcom about this.
I was just like, do do so, hmm,I'm going to get off on this
random floor and just got off.
I think there is a sitcomthere, Hadiya, like totally.
I put myself in suchvulnerable positions there.

(28:45):
So, you know, I, I guess the, theultimate point of this is, you know,
that's when I learned both about thefiltering, but also learned about
intent and what did I plan to get fromthis, and how to tap into emotion.
and do you think also what you choseto tell about the story, right?
Did not match your intent, like whatyou were trying to get of the audience?

(29:06):
My intent was that you weregoing to think I was amazing.
That was only, to be honest, to be real,I wanted you to think, because in my
mind to be able to pull something offat the time, and I'm being honest, I
just wanted you to think I was amazing.
and when that didn't match, that reallyset of what, what is happening here?

(29:27):
And, you know at the time I didn'treally know about like emotion and
story and the filtering and all that.
So, I, sort of, learned todo that through that process.
But it, that was my intent,but they got a different point.
They got a different pointand purpose altogether.
And a part of it's because ofthe way I told it and omitted
and chose to keep and not keep.

(29:48):
Yeah,
You, you didn't talk about the strugglethat people could identify with, the part
where you were working a hundred hours.
The part where you were trying to, you metall the expectations of your coworkers.
The part where you needed it becauseit was a trauma response, right?
So people weren't able tofully connect with that.
It was, I stuck with the details.
The struggle that you weretrying to give them wasn't like

(30:10):
Exactly.
I was, I stuck with the detailsand didn't get to the core of that.
I didn't, I talked about whatI gained, but not what I lost.
yeah.
If I was cheating anybody, I wascheating me because I couldn't do
anything else during that time period.
Mm-Hmm.
But worked those two jobs and, and,and absorbed that kind of stress.

(30:32):
You know, my boss who was in Arizona,you know, "hey Hadiya, I'm coming in town
tomorrow, maybe we can have lunch," andthen looking at my calendar and seeing
I have a meeting at lunch at my othercompany, like that, you know, it sounds
like, "oh, that's haha", but actually itwas extremely stressful and that was bad.
That was bad, you know, butI, who's gonna gimme money?
Who's gonna help me, yeah, support that?

(30:54):
You know, so you know, that's,that, I learned a great lesson,
obviously from, from that about, youknow, about intent versus purpose.
It's storytelling.
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
Your book delves into this, but I wascurious if you had any tips or strategies
that you wanted to share about invitingstories from participants or inviting them

(31:17):
to reflect on their stories privately?
Yeah.
So, just like with, I remember,and I think they still do this
video, which is all the crazyvideo, put a video in your course.
We can make a video,a video, video, video.
But a video, watching the videowas a passive experience, you know,
and so is storytelling if you'rejust up there telling a story.
So in one of the chapters I did aboutinviting people in, you know, it could

(31:41):
just be as simple as you stoppingand it could do this in e-learning
as well for scenario as you stoppingand say, what do you think happened?
And I think part of this is acceptingthe fact that once the story comes
out of your mouth is no longer yours.
What you're doing now is creating thestory of them listening to you, right?

(32:02):
So the story begins to morph and change,which means that you have to give
control away, and that's very tough.
So, if I were to say, you know, I wasin this situation, I had, I was working
the register and this customer camein and immediately went ballistic.
And of course, my urge is to keepgoing, to tell you how this happened.

(32:25):
Instead, if you stop and say,what do you think happened next?
What would you have done?
Has that happened to you?
Now, of course they could derailyou and just kind of go, no, you
know, or, you know, come up withsomething that they say they said or
did that was just amazing, you know.
So, you have to know how towrangle back control after that.
That would've been a good idea,but this is what I did instead.

(32:48):
You know?
So how do you get them to just thedifferent key points of the story
as you, as you're moving along?
What do you think happened next?
What would you do?
Have you ever been inthis situation before?
And, I find that's a pretty effectiveway to get them to start thinking and
really can immediately, you're askingthem to connect this scenario to you.

(33:09):
Or just how would youfeel if that happened?
You know, so even if they aren't,you know, they haven't been in that
situation, they've never workedin cash yet registered before.
That helps you get to that core againof you felt helpless before, I bet.
You know, you felt disrespected, youfelt I didn't know what to do before.
So, even bringing out those questionscan help navigate, help you navigate

(33:33):
that, that connection between what you'resaying, the story and their experiences.
I really love that way of invitingthem into the story and having them
connect it to their own experience.
And, it is so much less passive,you know, when you integrate that.
Yeah.
And, you have to be ready forwhat they bring in as well.
And, some people could juststart over their whole story.

(33:54):
Lemme tell you what happened to me.
It's like, no, that's not.
I had a very specific question, I wannaanswer to only that question, you know,
so you have to, that's facilitationskill's, such a lost art, you know, and
the book really focuses on facilitation,not necessarily design, because I just
think it's such a lost art, and it'ssomething that is real difficult to do.

(34:18):
I know, I think sometimes in L&D,there's this hierarchy of where the
facilit, it's like LMS, administrator,facilitator, Instructional Designer.
But that facilitation skillis just, it's one of the most
difficult things you can do.
So that, that requires that as well.
Yeah, and there's a quote from yourbook I just wanna read really quickly
and then ask a question about it.

(34:39):
You wrote, "Creating an environmentwhere everyone feels comfortable
laughing and swapping stories withone another is fuel for learning".
Mm-Hmm.
I'm curious how can we create, youknow, social learning experiences that
make people feel this level of comfort?
And, you know, ideally, there's laughterand sharing and things like that.
Well, you absolutely set the tone.
You having a good timeteaching this course?

(35:03):
I think as the facilitator, I think that'sthe, that's the number one thing, engaging
with people, not shutting them down.
Even how you facilitate their interactionswith, with one another, encouraging them
to talk to each other; going over there,seeing how they're talking and engaging.
It really is you having a goodtime, you laughing, you joking, and

(35:25):
then you know, to their comments,you know, joking or whatever.
I think you set the tone.
What you're doing is the way thecourse will go if you're very dry
and all that, then they're just not,they're not gonna feel the vibe.
We don't feel open enough to do that.
I mean, some people never will.
You know, I say the Westernschool system did this to us.

(35:46):
You know, where this is howschool is supposed to happen.
This is a serious space.
And sometimes, it is,sometimes it is serious.
I would say it's always serious,but I say I take the content
serious, but not myself, right?
So, I don't take myself seriouslyin that way, in that, you know, part
of what I'm here to do is to help usnavigate this, but I wanna set the tone

(36:08):
of what the, what the content requires.
Again, it goes back to that authenticityof what kind of environment they're
gonna be working in ultimately.
And as much as I can connect the tone tothat, it is good, but you know, again, I
think you setting the pace of you havinga good time, encourages them to as well.

(36:29):
I really like what you said about thatsetting that tone, and like you said,
when you set a serious tone, you're notsetting your audience up to be vulnerable.
You're setting them up to be very,like almost anxious, because if you're
always serious, it's like you don'treally know if it's a safe space to
really open up and show your emotions,because, you know, like you said, we've
been taught to be by this, by the book,but sometimes it's not about by the

(36:50):
book, it's about going off the bookand writing your own story with it.
So, I really like whatyou mentioned there.
Yeah, yeah.
And people are always, you know,watching, like they watch your
interactions with another student.
Another student says somethingvulnerable and they're, you know, people
are watching and see how you react.
What are you gonna say when that happened?
How are other people reacting?

(37:11):
you know, to see whetheror not is this safe?
Is that, is he gonna bepunished for what he just did?
Is he gonna be shot downfor what he just did?
They're, they're, they're watchingand they're keeping track.
And sometimes I have, you know, what Icall the slow packers where they won't
say anything and at the end of theclass they're just like slowly packing.

(37:31):
It's like, okay, this personobviously wants everybody to leave
so they can say something to me.
And so, sometimes it just hap, it happensat the end and you didn't think that they
were paying any attention, but they werereally just engaged by watching other
people sort of, you know, live that out.
But yeah, it's really up to you asthe facilitator to, to set that tone.
I think that one of thestrongest right connections.

(37:54):
There's two of them,there's sadness, right?
Like when you're sad andeverybody's like feeling it and
everybody's connected that way.
But then laughter...
mm-Hmm.
When you laugh with otherpeople, it creates this sense
of the connection is different.
Mm-Hmm.
Now, you feel like you can beyourself, because now we can be
silly and now we can joke about it.
And now, and like facilitationis an art and not everybody can

(38:17):
right, facilitate things right?
Like, but if you can make a room laugh.
Mm-Hmm.
If you can make a room laugh ina training, you know about like
software, that's a differentlevel of facilitation, you know?
They laugh at the mostis recognition, you know.
Exactly.
Not you just up there telling a joke.

(38:38):
It's, I've been through that.
I've been through that and itwas, it was ridiculous then,
and it's ridiculous now, and so,
I know.
You're almost forming a communitythrough those emotions, and that is
really what the facilitator is doing.
They are trying to createcommunity amongst strangers

(38:58):
for this short sixteen hours.
We're all in this together.
We all, we may not know each other, butwe are all here to experience this as one.
And, you bring all your stuff,you bring everything with you, but
here we're all together and herewe're experiencing the same thing.
And, you know, that's, that's toughto do, because first you need to feel.

(39:21):
I mean, we have our own stuff, youknow, as facilitators, and, and
you know, sometimes we're not greatat community, we're not great at
feeling connected, just personally.
So, you have to walk in there and,sort of, show that and lead that.
And, that's, it's not that easyif it doesn't come natural to
you as the leader in that regard.

(39:43):
And, and being able to bring out in peoplethat feeling of like, "oh, I'm not the
only one that feels the same about this".
This whole room feels like this.
So, I can actually speak my mindnow, because no one's gonna judge me,
you know, sitting across my table,because everybody feels like that.
Everybody laughed at the joke.
So, everybody has to feel thesame way that I feel about it.

(40:04):
So,
And then, when they ask you as afacilitator, okay, what do we do about it?
You say, I don't know, lunch.
You don't always have the answerof what they are going to ask you.
You know, you know about that.
I was at a session the other daywhere she seemed to be getting
everybody really sort of riled up.
And have you experienced this?
You experienced that?

(40:25):
You experienced this?
Yeah.
Okay.
On the next slide, you didn'treally give them an outlet for this.
So they've, it's not enoughto say we experienced it.
It's gotta land somewhere, like there'sgotta be a landing point where we
can, sort of, agree of at least wecan't go, and we're not gonna go march

(40:46):
with pitchforks and, you know, tryto change it, you know, in that way.
But the question is, how arewe able to cope with this?
What are some strategies wecan use, even just in our mind
to change our perspective?
that's what I mean by don't open doors.
You can't close.
You know, I think that is, that's,sort of, tricky sometimes when
I do my storytelling coaching.

(41:07):
My mother who lives withme, she's in the next room.
She's like, so what areyou a therapist now?
I'm like, you know, maybe I'mopening too many doors, because,
you know, childhood never ends.
So, a lot of the issues that peopleare facing are from childhood.
And, you know, you can't, there'snothing, you know, they have to
wanna do something with that.
So, but you don't know when you'regonna hit it until you're right there

(41:27):
that you're like, " oh, I hit that".
So yeah, it, you have to really makesure that once you start supporting
these environments and these communitiesand vulnerabilities, and once they get
there, they find some safety and somepsychological safety and some value
of being in that experience with you.
Yeah, and then, you know, you saying,"everybody's gonna receive your story.

(41:51):
They're gonna find a differentpoint to your story".
But, there has to be a point to yourstory as a facilitator too, like there
has to be something actionable thatyou're trying to get out of telling.
It's intent.
Yeah.
It's intent, right?
Like,
Yeah.
I picked this story for a reason,and I want to, I, I, my hope is
that you'll get this out of it.
Now, sometimes again it get somethingcompletely different and sometimes

(42:13):
that's great, like the story withDarla, you know, I just thought that
they would just be like, ah, boohoo,but something much bigger come, came
out of it; and to be able to corralthat, you know, that's the thing.
And so, now, when I, sort of, approachit, I think, what is my intent here?
What, why does this story exist?
Yeah.
In L&D, one thing I always say is we needto focus on stories of transformation.

(42:40):
Mm-Hmm.
What that means is that achange has had to occur.
There needs to be a journey.
Other than that, it's justwhat to me separates the
story from an anecdote, right?
Anecdotes, just, I didthis and I did that.
It's just a retelling.
It's like a testimony of retelling ofthings, which can be funny, which can be
interesting, which we can learn from you.
We can learn about youthrough an anecdote, you know?

(43:02):
But, you know, I, I always say whenit comes to, especially at leadership
training and all that, when you'retelling personal stories is to think
headlight, not spotlight, right?
So the spotlight, if you're justtelling a story where it's just a
spotlight on you, that's okay, butit's not particularly interesting.
But if you're able to take that lightand then use it as a guide for others,

(43:26):
that's where it gets interesting.
So, this is my life.
This story is about me,but it's not for me.
It's for you.
So, always be thinking of ways,how can I take this experience
and what I gained from it?
How I changed and howthe change affected me?
And, use that to shine a lightforward for other people.

(43:47):
And, just thinking about that ina way really, sort of, changes.
And, sometimes I'll think it halfwaythrough a story and think, "oh
wait a minute, Hadiya remember?
Yeah, especially if I'm like entertaining.
I'm just like, wait a minute.
The point of this is not just foryou to be funny and entertaining.
You have to really take a step back andthink, how is this going to help them?
So, it always kind ofgoes back to the change.

(44:11):
It always, kind of, goes back to,I was here, something happened.
Now, I'm here and this is howthat knowledge that I gained,
this is what I do now as a result.
And, that's other than the transformation,that's the most important part.
So what, so what, so this happenedto you, you learned something
and, well, so what this did is itmade me a better leader for this.

(44:34):
It made me a better that.
It made me a better communicator.
It made me realize this, you know,that is, that's sort of the key
that this type of stories thatwe, that we want people to tell.
I think that's so impactful too.
And like you said, that storylinebecause it's easy to put a spotlight
on yourself and say, yes, I got hereand this and that, but when you really
share that struggle that you got to helpyou get to that point and then show how

(44:56):
that point got you to the next point.
It really resonates with your audience.
I think so much more, because they'relike seeing like, okay, we're all going
through a different path in life, butyou struggled just as much as I did.
And now, I have a guide almost,or a mentor, that can show
me the path and how to do it,because I can relate to them now.
And, it's something that you know, and ifyou just go in there and be like, oh yeah,

(45:17):
I did this and I'm like this great person.
Okay, well that's cool, but I'mnot gonna resonate with you.
But if you show me that, let's saywe went through a similar experience.
Like you said, if we both went throughchildhood trauma, we both went through
a similar incident in the workplace andwe showed how we persevered through that
experience and thrive from that, thenI think that's where that story really
hits that message so much harder thanjust being that person in the spotlight.

(45:40):
Yeah.
And not only is it instructive,but it's also proof.
That it's possible, andsometimes that's all we need,
because it's something magical.
That change may have been somethinglike a, an incredible stroke of luck
that you think, "well, I'm nevergoing to let that happen or never
going to have that happen to me".
But just the fact that, that personsurvived that, and that, that could

(46:01):
happen and that it is possible.
And then, when you see yourselfin that person, that's when you're
taking that, that person with you.
Cause again, in L&D, that's,that's usually the type of
stories we're trying to tell.
We're trying to take them withus, not just impress them.
And, you know, I mean, when I saidI started my career in tech, in
computer tech support, you know, thesewere, the instructors were the guys.

(46:24):
It was usually guys with two beepers, youknow, beeper here, beeper there; and they
would just tell these stories about howthey drove in the middle of the night to
reboot a server and they were so braveand their only point was to impress us.
That was it, because they didn'ttell us why the server had to
be rebooted or what they had todo, or what else they had to do.
It didn't matter.
They just wanted you to know why.

(46:45):
But in their mind, their intentwas that was educating you, but
that, that's not what happened.
The point I got was that youwanted us to know that you
are, know, amazing in that way.
So, you know, sometimes peoplewho are very successful I is, they
struggle to remember the journey.
They kind of go, you know, Iwanted to do it so I did it.
What are you referring to there?

(47:06):
What is that?
So, sometimes it's hard toget people to remember, you
know, what they went through.
It also shows a vulnerability thatthey don't really wanna share.
So yeah, and sometimes itdoesn't happen like that.
Like sometimes the story, you thinkthe story is framed, but I was this,
and then 10 minutes later I was that.
It may have been 20 years.
You may have learned it severaltimes, that lesson over and over

(47:27):
and over again, and you got it justa little, little, little, little
until you realize, oh, this is, thisis what that all meant ultimately.
So, you know, it's, it's pointingto different incidents in your
life and then, sort of, pullingthem back to a larger meaning.
Yeah, Yeah and, you know, if, if we takeit back to like training, those spotlight

(47:48):
stories don't affect performance goals.
Right.
They do anything forperformance goals, right?
Because what we, peoplelearn from struggle.
You don't learn from like, everythingwas nice and, you know, you learn more
from your coworker's mistakes and thethings that they did and you're like,
"oh, I'm never doing that", because, youknow, this person went through that.
So, if the goal is that performance, thenshowing that struggle and the mistakes

(48:14):
is probably more effective than the same.
Do you have any guidance for, becauseyou talked about, you know, vulnerability
and the word that came to mind from BreneBrown about the vulnerability hangover.
So, you know, like, oh no,like I told this story, maybe
I wasn't ready to tell it.
Do you, whether it's the facilitatoror the participants, do you provide

(48:35):
any kind of guidance in advance?
Or, do you have any strategies for likedetermining what stories I should share,
you know, in a given moment that I share?
Yeah, it's interesting.
You don't, I don't, I can'tremember I read so much of yourself.
I don't know what came from me and whatcame from her, but I always tell people,
you don't owe the world a breakdown.

(48:55):
When you talk about emotional, youdo not owe the world that at all.
So, just start from that point.
You do not owe them a breakdown.
I think another thing too is sometimeswhen we share those vulnerable moments,
we are very, so much, sometimesa little addicted to the reaction
we think we're gonna get from it.
And, I think she said, she said this onsome show where she said, "the victory

(49:17):
of sharing your vulnerability", and I'mparaphrasing, "the victory of sharing
your vulnerability is that you did itnot from other people's reaction to it".
You know, so I think that's, youknow, something to keep in mind
as well, which kind of goes backto why are you sharing this?
What, what are youreally trying to do here?
Are you, do you want peopleto tap into their, their inner

(49:39):
something and connect to you?
Or, do you want, do you just want them toknow what you, what you went through and
how impressed you they are about that?
Like what is your intent there?
I think that's one.
It's again, that line between open andnote is being almost surgical about being
self-aware enough to know I shouldn't talkabout this, so I should talk about that.

(50:01):
And, what defense mechanisms do you havein place that could be triggering that?
So like, if I were in that situationand I feel like I'm sharing something
that I, there's a line that I feel likeI've crossed my, I'm gonna automatically
start joking about it, right?
In order to, sort of, that's my wayto backpedal, you know, away from it.
That's kind of risky, because someonecould have been right on the precipice of

(50:25):
like, yes, and you're sort of making lightof it, you know, at that point as well.
So, there's a consequence to that.
And, honestly, unfortunately, you kindof learn that in public over time.
You know, it's hard to know what youcan't talk about and when you can't talk
about until you talk about it and go,"I'm never talking about that again".

(50:46):
You know, so that is, that is the,that's like, you know, like that,
that story about the working two jobs,you know, I use that now as a story,
you know, to instruct about story,but before I told it as a story.
You know, and it took me a long timelearn that that is not going to serve me.

(51:08):
Even though, of course, in mymind, I'm thinking, but I'm like,
oh no, that's, that's not goingto, that's not going to serve me.
It's, I would have to do too muchexplaining and too much, know, norm
setting for them to get it the way to,for my, for my intent to meet the purpose.
I'm gonna use, I'm gonna repurposethat story for something else.

(51:31):
Sometimes, it's just part of the story,like, I'm just gonna talk about from,
you know, step, you know, S to Z.
I'm gonna leave out everything , you know,you know, ahead of it that got me there.
So, but, you know, the more, I think thatthe, the, again, the more surgical you
are and the more you're able to selectwhat you think is gonna work in that work.

(51:51):
You know, I think that just comeswith skill and time and distance.
You know, distance, distance, distancefrom that and gaining more perspective
on it and seeing, you know, was itreally as bad as I thought it would
be, and what did I gain from that?
And sometimes, what you gainfrom it is so important and so

(52:13):
meaningful that it's worth it.
It's worth the vulnerabilityit's worth the risk.
It's worth the share.
Hadiya, this is a question foryou and also everybody here.
Is there anything I didn't ask that,you know, you really wanted to chat
about or, you know, share on this topic?
Well, I mentioned, when we had exchangedbeforehand, that one thing that

(52:37):
I'm moving towards in storytelling.
First of all is personal storytellingas opposed to always in this
sort of instructional designsense, but personal storytelling.
But also, many of us are in aposition where we have to get
stories out of people or we haveto show them how to get stories.

(52:57):
So, I am putting together, whichI'm gonna launch next March of
2024, a story guide program.
And so, what that does is not onlydo you learn about storytelling,
but it's assuming you havesome basic knowledge in it.
But, the whole point of it isto teach you how to help people
to navigate these discussions.

(53:19):
And, you can use it if you're a coach.
You can use it in just your regular,just for yourself or to help your friends
through interviews, or when you're workingwith subject matter experts and you're
trying to get information out of them.
You can use these strategiesas a way to do that.
And, that's not somethingthat you see a lot.
Usually, all the, all the curricularsbased on you learning how to tell a story.

(53:42):
But, that's not always what I'mtrying to do, like I'm trying
to get you to tell the story.
It's not the same.
Me knowing how to dosomething's not the same.
But also too, I don't have tonecessarily have to be an expert
storyteller to get a story out of youeither if I have the right skills.
So, that's what I'm I'm always gonnabe sort of in the teaching you how to
tell a story space, but I'm sort ofmoving on to this other, this next sort

(54:06):
of phase in the storytelling journey.
That, that's important 'cause I, Ihaven't seen anything like that out there.
Mm-Hmm.
I will tell you this, when you'relistening to stories, you kind of
become a therapist in a way, 'causeyou don't know what you're gonna get.
And that's part of it too.
You don't know what emotions
Yeah.
I have to be careful
Yeah.
You don't know what emotion.
You don't know what traumaticstory you're gonna get.

(54:28):
Like you don't know how it's gonnago, like how the other people, if
you're like in a group, how the otherpeople are gonna react to story.
So, that's like intense.
It's intense and it's knowing how togive them that kind of ownership of
instead of you probing and probing.
You just probe for themto give you information.
You know?
So, it's these different sort of coachingand discussion strategies and different

(54:52):
ways to get them to come, not for you topull them up, but to get them to rise up.
You know, is, is really part of it,and it, and it is creating that safe
space and it's, you know, for showingpeople how to do it in groups, how to
do it, one-on-one, how to do it in Zoom.
So yeah, I, I'm excited for it.
Hopefully, there's an interest outthere in learning how to do that.
So, yeah, excited about it.

(55:14):
Well, that's amazing.
And, you know, if people wouldlike to learn more about your work,
Hadiya, where can they find you?
Well, I have it reallypretty much all on my website
duetslearning.com or on LinkedIn.
I have a lot of informationout there as well.
So, those are your places.
Amazing.
So, on behalf of the your instructionaldesigner team, I just wanna thank you so

(55:34):
much for being part of our podclass today.
All right.
Thank you for having me.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
Thank you.
If this episode about storiescame with a dust jacket, here's
what the blurb would say.
First, a story is a tool.
It's important to consider intentand purpose and guide learners to
choose an appropriate story to tell.
Why tell a story at all?

(55:55):
And why that story?
Second, self awareness, empathy, andmindfulness are key to creating an
environment that feels supportivefor personal story sharing.
Third, learners need torecognize themselves in stories.
Stories that deal with real lifesituations, show transformation, and
offer guidance can be powerful toolsfor inspiring and instructing others.

(56:16):
But ultimately, the point of astory belongs to the listener.
People filter stories throughtheir own experiences.
Fourth, you can shift story timefrom a passive to active experience
by inviting people into stories.
Pause periodically to ask,what do you think happened?
And, how would you feel if that happened?
Finally, learners don't haveto share their stories to

(56:36):
benefit from storytelling.
They might listen to someone else'snarrative and then tap into one
of their own related memories.
Now it's your turn.
For your experiment, you'll think back toa memorable story someone shared with you
that communicated an important insight.
You'll dissect what makes that storyeffective, and then apply those
insights to a story of your own.

(56:56):
You can find the full experimentbrief in the show notes or the Social
Learning Lab community on Facebook.
In the community, you can also shareyour stories, get feedback and insights
from peers, and comment on others ideas.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leavea review, like, subscribe, or share so
we can continue to build a supportivegroup of social learning enthusiasts.

(57:16):
Until next time, keep makinglearning that matters.