October 16, 2023 • 44 mins
Mark and Dan talk about the rules for Future Proofing your system, and the principles of good design. From Moores Law, chip driven vs mechanical technologies, analog vs digital technologies, the idea of headroom and more, learn the secrets, and design principles from the pros!!!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:35):
Well,
welcome to the Sound of Design with Mark and Dan and thank you very much for joining us and hanging out with us today.
Uh We are very excited about today's episode because we will be talking about things that are not product specific and we'll talk a little bit about those things like as they apply.
(01:00):
But for the most part,
uh we really want to talk about how to think about your technology and how to think about some of the principles and the rules of how technology works across a ton of different uh parts of the industry.
And so these are things that will apply towards computers and cell phones,
(01:21):
uh stereos and TV.
S and it's kind of the guiding principles to how you would want to think through uh a technology design.
And one of the very first things that I learned very,
very,
very quickly was that there's this idea called Do it right the first time.
(01:45):
Hey,
I've heard that somewhere.
Um You know,
it's honestly Mark,
I,
I don't know how else to say it.
Sometimes it's like some people get it and some people don't and I don't know why some people insist on doing things the hard way.
But they just,
(02:06):
they,
they,
they kind of drag you on a leash a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I mean,
yeah,
it,
it happens way way too often in my opinion.
So,
anyway,
uh,
let's,
uh,
let's do this.
Uh,
let's talk a little bit about,
(02:26):
um,
some of the,
the things that we'll get into.
So we'll talk about Moore's Law here in just a second.
Uh We'll talk a little bit about um,
chip driven technology versus mechanical technology.
Uh We'll talk about specialization.
We'll talk a little bit about analog and digital.
We'll talk a little bit about headroom,
you know,
things like that.
So,
(02:47):
um to,
to kind of start with,
um what is the difference between a chip driven technology and a mechanical technology?
Sure.
Sure.
So anything chip driven,
you know,
you probably know a lot about it from the uh the past couple of years where there was a chip shortage,
(03:09):
if you've ever heard that uh is anything that's gonna essentially use a microprocessor,
a computer chip of some sort that's going to,
you know,
process whatever it is you're doing.
So,
you know,
in our industry,
it's typically the brains of control systems or a V processors that are doing a digital and analog conversion of some sort or televisions or said really anything that you,
(03:34):
you probably use on a regular basis that you interact with,
you know,
cell phone is another big one.
mechanical technology.
You're thinking more like amplifiers,
speakers,
something along those lines that essentially just take in the signal and play it.
Right.
So,
you know,
your speaker other than the crossover,
(03:56):
which is still just essentially a,
a board with different capacitors and other things on there to process the signal.
It's not really a process,
it's just passing through.
I'm really glad you kind of gave us the application of it because they are really big categories,
right?
If you think about the way a cell phone works,
(04:16):
it's designed to work for a few years,
you're gonna get maybe 34 years out of it.
But eventually that thing is gonna stop working the way that it's supposed to.
And it's because it's reliant upon that chip.
Whereas when you think about mechanical technologies,
they have a much longer lifespan.
And so one of the biggest things that you'll notice is that speakers,
(04:37):
for example,
last a long time,
and we've sort of said that a bunch of times in a bunch of different ways,
you know,
if you put a pair of speakers and you cut them into your wall or into your ceiling,
uh those are gonna last a long time.
They're part of the house that's a 15 year or a 20 year kind of a purchase and kind of technology.
Now,
it's still technology,
(04:57):
they're still electronics,
they're still gonna do the things that they're supposed to do but you do have a much different appreciation for the type of thing that you're getting and what to expect out of it.
I don't think anyone would want to buy a cell phone and say this is going to be my cell phone for the next 20 years.
Right.
Like,
(05:18):
it's just,
it sounds weird to even see it that way.
Yep.
Yep.
I mean,
my,
my mother-in-law does still use a flip phone.
So,
you know,
I mean,
it is about 67 years old,
but I don't even know how the thing works.
So,
could you imagine a 20 year old trying to use a 20 year old cell phone?
Well,
and you think about what's gonna happen,
(05:38):
is it gonna be compatible on that cellular network as they continue to update and change and,
you know,
improve and,
you know,
so on and so forth.
And the answer is like,
no,
it's not gonna be compatible and then it's gonna stop working.
And so I think when you start thinking about networking,
when you think about your control systems,
when you think about uh those things that are going to have to change on a regular basis,
(06:03):
then you start realizing that there's two kind of categories and the one that's chip driven should be treated as a short term strategy and the one that's mechanical should be considered the long term strategy.
And my favorite example of that is Macintosh amplifiers.
(06:26):
It was told to me that when you buy a Macintosh amplifier,
you're supposed to look at the customer and say this is the last AMP you are ever going to buy ever because you don't ever need to replace this.
That's it like you're done.
Like you,
you did the thing.
Yep.
Yep.
I mean,
I,
(06:46):
I went to,
uh,
when I visited the,
the Macintosh uh factory and headquarters up in Binghamton,
New York that was,
you're joining the club with us.
You know,
it's the same club that a Ferrari owner joins when they buy a Ferrari just instead of it,
you know,
driving around places,
it,
(07:07):
it plays back your audio at the best quality possible.
So um definitely a long term purchase.
Yeah,
and there's a very interesting thing and we're going to get into Moore's law here a little bit and I kind of want to bring it up because this is one of those old technology laws that has kind of shaped the last 30 years.
(07:29):
And if you're not familiar with it,
essentially,
uh there was uh a leader who noticed that the technology that they were developing and the chips that they were developing were improving their ability to do research and development into chip manufacturing.
And so what kept happening is as they would develop a chip,
(07:52):
it would give them the technology to develop a better chip.
And he started to notice that about every 18 months that the production quality,
the speed that they would develop these things at would double and in doing so they would actually be able to bring the cost of production down by about half.
(08:18):
And so people have kind of seen this happen over and over.
You look at a cell phone and then another two years goes by and the technology company is looking at you going like,
hey,
we've got this brand new thing and it's awesome.
It's fantastic and it's twice as fast as the old one.
And guess what,
that old technology is now,
half the price that it used to be funny how that works.
(08:45):
And so for like 20 or 30 years,
we've been doing this,
we've had this cycle that happens over and over and over and over again.
And while we are definitely improving today,
um in terms of the speed at which we're able to process,
we also have this ability to reduce the amount of energy consumption that a chip is going to produce as well.
(09:07):
And I know the guys out of Israel at Intel had a big part to do with this where they started realizing like,
just because you can get a faster chip.
If it's not more efficient,
you're just putting more fuel into a bigger engine.
And so there is a point at which we've also started to realize like efficiency is a big part of that technological uh process as well.
(09:28):
So now that you sort of understand that how long should I be looking at certain chip driven technologies in terms of their lifespan?
Sure.
Um I mean,
you mentioned cell phones,
most of us have kind of programmed it into our brain at this point that we need to upgrade our phones every 2 to 3 years.
(09:49):
And you know,
a lot of your cellphone manufacturers or,
or sellers are seeing that.
So they have a 2 to 3 year contract,
whatever that you sign up for now,
like the AT&T next program or something where you pay on the phone every so often.
It's uh it's basically like they're loaning you the phone until you pay it off type thing.
Uh instead of an actual contract but kind of that direction,
(10:10):
you know,
I,
I'm gonna loop TV S into that too.
Uh TV,
technology has gotten,
I mean,
it,
it just,
it upgrades so fast.
I mean,
I know that we're at eight K at this point and it would surprise me if we heard anything about anything past eight K for a while.
I know it exists,
but it just really hasn't even caught on in the TV market.
Gosh,
three or four years ago before the new gaming consoles came out to.
(10:34):
Now,
you have,
you know,
panels that could,
that were just four K and they could do HDR or HDR 10.
And now you have HDR 10 plus Dolby vision with variable refresh rates for gaming and low,
low response times things like that.
So,
and you're just talking a matter of,
of years.
(10:54):
I mean,
I like,
I know I talked on the last episode about upgrading my TV.
The TV,
I had was on almost four years old,
I guess.
And it's night and day difference,
what my new TV can do compared to the old one just when it comes to things like gaming.
So,
and then,
you know,
uh a V processors,
(11:16):
you know,
a a as technology is upgraded with displays,
anything that's gonna process video will also need to be upgraded.
I know that a lot of uh like when four K launched Blue Ray players had an HDM I out for video and an HDM I out for audio.
So you kind of get around the need to upgrade,
but especially with,
you know,
(11:36):
the unfortunate,
you know,
downhill demise of physical media R IP as it's coming.
Um but I,
I don't,
I hope it doesn't,
but as it does,
um you know,
you probably won't see as many changes there or as many options as far as what you can do to get past having to upgrade that technology.
I look at computers as another really big one that are gonna have a much shorter lifespan.
(12:00):
Uh I think I can,
you know,
safely say if you buy the top of the line computer and you know,
max out everything you possibly can the fastest RA M and you know,
the biggest,
fastest processor you can get and so on and so forth.
You might get four or five years out of that thing.
And that's doing pretty well.
Right.
(12:20):
And so you take a look at that and say,
all right,
I know I can,
you know,
rock this for a while,
but that's got to be the,
the short strategy that has to be the,
the thing that it's probably actually going to make more sense not to go all the way with it.
And I know it sounds kind of weird.
It's like,
you know,
(12:41):
in a sense,
I kind of want the best processing,
I can get to feed my system the best food that I possibly can get.
But from a financial perspective,
I think there's an argument to be made to say like I just want to match my level.
I probably shouldn't overextend in that particular area because if the technology changes in three years and something new comes out that I want to have as part of my system,
(13:07):
then I'm gonna be stuck and nobody wants to invest,
you know,
30 or $40,000 into processing.
Um,
you know,
because then then you're stuck with whatever that is for a short period of time.
It's like that doesn't make sense if you're gonna do a nice theater room,
you know what?
Yeah,
you could invest,
(13:27):
you know,
5 10 15 in processing.
That makes sense.
You know,
if you're doing a JB L synthesis if you're doing Macintosh,
if you're doing.
Yeah.
Ok.
Like I get it,
there's nice processors out there.
But should I have all my eggs in that basket?
Yeah.
Maybe not,
maybe,
(13:47):
maybe not.
I mean,
I,
I uh,
I recently before upgrading the TV,
last year,
upgraded um to a navy processor.
I know in our surround sound episode we talked about using a navy receiver and separates,
um I upgraded to a full on a V processor and then Moran went out and released the A V 10 which is a monster and I'm an 88 05.
(14:12):
A not a,
not a bad processor by any means,
but you know,
it's a pretty substantial upgrade.
Um So I'm kinda kicking myself a little bit for not waiting,
but it's all good.
I still get most of what I want out of it,
but that A V 10 is sexy.
Well,
and that's exactly the point,
right?
Like,
so you're gonna spend again to get,
keep yourself up to date.
(14:33):
So do I wanna put all those eggs in that basket?
Now,
let's do a flip side.
Let's take a look at the mechanical style of that equation and say I invest into an A V rack and I put in there a phenomenal audio quest,
Niagara 7000,
for example.
And we've got,
(14:53):
let's call it a couple of MC 4 62 and you're going to do a very nice stereo system.
Do you want to spend all that money again and again and again and again.
No,
definitely not.
You do not.
Once you do that system,
(15:13):
that's the last AMP you're ever gonna buy,
that's the whole point you may add to it.
You may go from stereo to surround sound.
All right.
Absolutely.
Let's add another AMP to the system,
but you don't lose on what you've already invested into that first one.
Right?
It kind of takes us to the next kind of rule or thought process that occurs uh which is specialization.
(15:38):
So uh when I say that word,
I mean that word,
taking a function and we're specializing a piece of gear to only do that one function.
So it's kind of like this idea for people.
Uh if you go to a doctor and he is a general practice doctor,
(16:02):
he's not going to be doing brain surgery,
right?
He's going to do your physical,
but he's not going to do the specific Oper operation.
And likewise,
you would never go to the brain surgeon for the physical because that guy doesn't do him.
He's a specialist.
Well,
with technology,
the same idea,
right?
Certain gear can be specialized in,
(16:23):
into doing very specific processes.
So mark,
where would we see a specialization kind of start and what are some of the things that we can start expecting as a benefit to doing specialization?
Sure.
Um I mean,
just we've been talking about a V processors.
So that's,
that's a big one.
(16:45):
And the reason why I kind of throw it in that category is if you think of it,
a V receiver,
what is it?
It's got a section for your speakers.
So that means you've got an amplifier built in,
um it's got a section four processing.
So the preamps built in and it typically has a tuner for over the air radio signals because people still do that.
(17:11):
An A V processor typically,
well,
depending on which one you go with will remove,
definitely remove the amplification.
A really good one will also remove your uh tuner for over the air.
And in some cases also remove any wireless or digital functionality whatsoever because they know there are other devices that specialize in doing it better.
(17:37):
So we've been talking about Macintosh.
So they have uh the MX 1 80 is their top tier A B processor currently and it's just ins and outs and,
and digital and analog ins and analog outputs to amplifiers.
So if you want to stream music,
(17:58):
you can buy,
you can buy the Macintosh streamer,
you can buy a run,
you can buy a blue sound node,
you buy Sonos,
all of those devices specialize in streaming audio and they can connect to your Macintosh processor.
Macintosh also makes a separate tuner.
So if you really want over the air,
they have a dedicated device for that.
(18:20):
And by doing so you're eliminating noise transfer inside of the box because it's specializing in that one piece.
So now the noise is only gonna come from the interconnects between the two devices.
I love the fact that you went to the noise because that is the idea that is so uh critical and we talked a little bit about it before.
(18:44):
But this concept that the gear introduces noise,
right?
This concept that no gear is perfect,
no matter how much money you spend,
you could spend millions upon millions of dollars.
There's still going to be some sort of noise or distortion that the gear itself is going to introduce.
And so you're absolutely right.
When you specialize all of that noise can now be dealt with and controlled on an individual level,
(19:09):
you can do take the exact same principle though into other parts of our industry,
you could take that principle and apply it to uh networking,
for example,
have a dedicated router.
All it does is route digital signals and have a dedicated wireless access point.
(19:29):
All it does is broadcast Wi Fi and make sure that it gives you the best strongest broadcast with the most patterns.
Uh You can do that with your network switches.
You can have just a generic switch or you can have an audio video bridge switch or an A VB switch.
Uh You can have a AVB and uh power over Ethernet or uh Poe switch.
(19:54):
And so as you start thinking about it,
you could have a specific switch to do all of the specific functions that you want.
And that means that when there's an issue or when there's a problem,
you can go back and you can trace it and you can say,
oh,
that one piece is what's causing that problem.
Oh,
that one function.
(20:15):
That's where the issue is.
And so think about this for a second,
let's say you invest into a nice system,
spend 15 to $20,000 and your system doesn't work.
Well,
that's the first thing you're going to start asking.
Well,
ok.
Well,
what's not working in it while the TV turns on?
Or the projector turns on.
So I know it's not the end line there.
(20:36):
Nothing wrong with my speakers.
So we have no issues with that part of it.
The A V processor turns on the amplifiers turn on.
But for some reason,
we're not getting a Netflix signal.
It's like,
oh,
well,
maybe we could go look at a specialized piece of gear like the Apple TV.
Or we could go a step further back and say,
oh,
it's the network switch and then we can go a further step back and say,
(20:59):
oh no,
it's the router itself.
Oh no,
it's the modem.
We don't have internet signal.
And as you work your way backwards,
piece by piece by piece by piece,
and now you don't have to toss out a $20,000 system.
Maybe I'm just replacing a $200 switch or 100 and $50 Apple TV,
because that's the chip driven technology that's failed because it's been two years and you can save the rest of your system,
(21:28):
uh,
and make that work if it sounds like I've maybe had that conversation once or twice.
Um,
I've replaced my Apple TV just recently because,
I mean,
I know they're,
they're one of the best streaming devices out there.
But man,
they,
uh I do feel like they're programmed to fail at some point.
It's,
well,
and I don't even know that it was programmed.
(21:49):
I think it's just the,
the,
the pure,
the pure fact of that chip was not designed to last forever.
I just wanna,
I just wanna say it's programmed to fail,
but I don't actually believe that for sure,
for sure.
Um I mean,
I still use most of them here but we do ask a lot of them.
I mean,
(22:09):
that's my main media hub in my system.
Every device I have streams Netflix,
but I use the Apple TV to do that.
Right.
So it would make sense that if I'm asking,
I'm,
I'm putting it to work a lot that it's probably gonna need to be upgraded sooner.
Let's take this idea to more of a hi fi direction because we've talked about it now with a bunch of different types of uh gear.
(22:34):
But in the hi fi world,
it's a principle that's known as analog versus digital and this is an argument that's gone back.
I don't know,
60 years,
70 years it seems like very,
very,
very long time old hi fi guys are sitting around in shops going,
you know,
I don't like that new digital stuff and it's a problem and so on and so forth and,
(22:57):
uh,
to be fair it probably did not sound good when it first came out.
Uh,
probably not.
I remember my first experience with digital audio and I think it was like dolby stereo or Dolby Pro logic or something.
And while it was cool,
it came out on multiple speakers,
it was not,
I mean,
(23:17):
you'd have to crank it compared to the analog sound.
The volume is just so much,
so much lower because there are less snippets of,
of digital signals.
So maybe talk us through a little bit just maybe like give me a little bit of what is analog and a little bit of what is the digital and kind of where,
where that started and how that directly relates to,
(23:39):
to Hi Fi.
Sure.
So,
you know,
digital digital analog conversion is taking a digital signal which is typically a binary signal.
So ones and zeros is what you'll hear.
People refer to it as uh into an analog signal.
You don't typically have snippets of sound,
you just have the full signal,
(23:59):
right?
When you have a digital signal,
it is snippets.
So that's where when we were talking about the hi fi guys,
older quality digital signals didn't have enough frames or,
or snips of that audio to recreate it as naturally as they were used to hearing on an analog system nowadays though.
(24:23):
It's getting pretty,
it's getting pretty good.
I mean,
you've got decks that can do up to 100 and 92 kilohertz,
which is just insane when it comes to the amount of,
uh,
snippets that you can take of a digital signal.
Uh compared to even CD,
which was what,
44 44 1 so 44,100 Hertz.
(24:45):
Uh There are still people out there that love that analog signal.
I love turning on my turntable and listening every once in a while.
The biggest thing you will notice still is uh signal quality volume is what you'll notice the difference.
At least for me,
you know,
when you're turning on the turntable,
if I've got the,
the right preamp,
it's gonna boost that signal enough to where I don't have to turn it up as loud.
(25:08):
But I go to the same thing on a digital player and it,
I might have to turn it up a little bit louder because of the,
the digital signal just not being as loud.
Well,
and I think the,
the idea too is that when you go to a digital format,
you know,
you said it right with the snippets,
it's like you've got to take sections of your picture Right.
(25:32):
And so I think it's,
it's fair to say like we've all seen a pixel uh image,
right?
Well,
what happened?
Will you,
will you lose the resolution?
You lose the detail,
you lose the clarity,
you're just getting blocks,
you're getting a dark spot and a bright spot,
right?
And if you're in color it's like here's a green spot and a blue spot.
(25:53):
I didn't get really the blue sky and I didn't get really green grass.
I got a chunk of green or a chunk of blue.
And at the same thing happens uh in,
in audio,
the same thing happens in hi fi,
you,
you can get those chunks to be smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.
(26:16):
And as that continues to get smaller and smaller,
your resolution continues to improve.
And so it's this perfect analogy of how in focus or how clear do you want that uh sound to be?
And it's easy for us to visualize,
but it's not as easy I think to hear uh until you get to a certain point where you've actually put in a nicer stereo system.
(26:41):
Quite honestly,
if you don't put in something halfway decent,
you'll never notice the difference.
Because if uh you only had,
for example,
a screen and I know this sounds silly.
But if it only had eight blocks available,
if your cell phone only had eight buttons on it,
like you'd never be able to tell anything,
you wouldn't be able to have words,
you wouldn't be able to,
(27:02):
it's just chunky all the time,
right?
So,
like you need to have a certain amount of resolution capable in order to give yourself that detail and really enjoy what is uh what's going on.
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
And,
and I love the kind of the analogy that you gave there.
(27:23):
One of the biggest things that has come along in the past couple of years that uh people ask for a lot is,
hey,
I want a turntable that's Bluetooth.
And uh and you know what,
I,
I get it like I'm an audio snob per se.
But you know,
you're literally,
when you take Bluetooth,
(27:44):
you're taking,
it's the same thing.
You take a bunch of,
you take that full signal right off the record and it's gonna take it and break it up into millions of little cubes and send it over there and,
you know,
to a Bluetooth speaker or something,
whatever else that you want.
And then that's gonna try to take and put all those cubes back together in time in the right place and try to recreate that signal and it just isn't designed for that,
(28:09):
right?
You're,
you're never going to recreate that sound over Bluetooth by going with the turntable.
You're kind of committing to that analog signal,
right?
Utilize a preamp.
I know we've talked before about,
you know,
turntables providing that,
that analog or that sit down and relax and have your favorite beverage experience.
(28:31):
That's what it's designed for and you will hear a difference and it'll be,
you know,
and in my opinion,
one of the best experience you can have listening to music.
And so now you kind of get to the,
the idea of,
well,
why do I need some of these extra pieces?
And you start realizing like,
oh,
well,
the preamp is that piece that's gonna handle that creation of the signal,
(28:55):
getting it it a lot louder,
right?
As you were saying earlier in a very clean,
very clear way because you have actual voltage that's being turned up,
right?
We're not just doing math and hoping that a processor is going to send that signal someplace else.
It's like,
no,
I,
I,
I'm not just going times too,
(29:16):
I'm actually turning up uh a physical or mechanical process and I think that makes a big difference in the way that the quality is.
It's the same difference between hamburger and steak.
You know,
it's,
I understand it's the exact same animal.
I know I shouldn't have gone through because now everybody's hungry.
(29:38):
Yep,
it's almost dinner time.
Um But you think about it,
hamburger,
ground beef is all chopped up,
you know,
can you put it together?
Can you put it back together?
Yeah,
you can put it back together.
Is it the same as the steak?
No,
no,
no.
I mean,
you can smash it together,
you know,
that's been popular.
Smash it with other things like onions or whatever.
(30:01):
But it's still not a steak onions.
Mm.
I think I've derailed the show.
It's all good.
It's all good.
Maybe we'll do a cooking episode next.
Uh,
there you go.
Well,
to that point.
Uh,
all right.
Well,
the last thing that we want to do is,
(30:25):
uh,
talk a little bit about headroom.
Um,
because that's kind of like the last,
uh,
concept in terms of strategy and it goes beyond audio,
but it starts in audio and then we kind of apply that principle to other uh other areas.
So Mark,
tell me a little bit about headroom and what the concept is there.
(30:47):
Sure.
I mean,
the best way that I could do it is just kind of give an example.
And it's an example of one of the first times that you and I sat down after we did this remodel at our,
at our store to get a lot of this,
this really cool stuff that we've been talking to you all about over the past few months.
And uh it was,
you would bring in your,
(31:08):
your Mac and you'd hook it directly into a Navy processor and you would actually drag a,
a music file into pro tools.
Uh And you would play it back at different at different uh sample rates while the track itself wasn't done in,
you know,
(31:28):
1 92 it was probably a 44 1 track it wasn't a high res audio track,
but just putting it in and then playing it back through pro tools and utilizing the additional processing that was in there.
The headroom that you had was just,
I'm not gonna say it was astronomically higher,
but it was noticeably higher.
(31:50):
And what I mean by that is that,
you know,
one of my favorite tracks is a song by Michael Buble where he's snapping at the beginning of it.
And you went from like,
I've listened to that track 100 times.
You listen to him snapping and it's like,
ok,
yeah,
he's in the room snapping to when he snaps.
You can hear the room,
the,
the sound echo around the space that he's in.
(32:10):
And that is something that you,
that you can't just recreate on any system.
You have to have that better processing.
But because of that additional headroom,
we now have the ability to hear that if that makes sense,
it does and uh I'll kind of call it out a slightly different way.
It's how far away is the loudest potential sound compared to the actual signal itself.
(32:38):
And maybe that's a good way to say it if I turn something in up to 50 but I have the ability to go all the way to 100.
How well is that sound going to sound at 50 compared to maxing it out and pushing it all the way.
Mhm I,
it's,
and that's exactly what you're describing,
(32:59):
like you have this extra process and you have this extra room to be able to hear all of the extra stuff that is already there.
Because you can remember all the pro guys,
they're already working at that higher resolution format.
They work at the highest quality possible because they know that it's only ever gonna degrade,
it's never gonna improve.
(33:20):
So you've only got a one way degradation street.
So you got to start at the very,
very,
very,
very,
very best in order to maintain good quality throughout your process.
So it's like that means I don't want to have a,
to use cars as the analogy.
I don't want a car that maxes out at fif 50 miles an hour.
If I have to go 50 miles an hour,
(33:40):
I need a car that can go 100 if I need a car that's gonna go 70 miles an hour on a regular basis.
It can't just top out at 70 it has to go 100 and 40.
I don't take it to 100 and 40.
Maybe you do,
maybe you do if there's any police officers listening,
I love you and I obey all of the traffic laws all the time.
(34:03):
100% of the time,
always,
always,
always.
All right.
So,
uh you have to have a car that can do more than what it's capable of.
So I,
I think this is the,
the same thing if I have a networking piece of gear.
I don't want to buy a network switch that only has four ports because I need four ports.
(34:24):
I want to buy a networking piece of gear that has eight ports.
So I know that the four that I have are going to work the way that they're supposed to.
Uh And I hate to be so silly about it that way.
But like if I know that I'm gonna use a computer to do video editing,
for example,
and I'm gonna use a lot of ra M like,
(34:45):
I'm gonna need 16 gig,
you know,
gigabits of ra M.
I should probably get the machine with 32.
So I have the headroom,
so I'm not maxing out that machine's capabilities.
It's one of those things that it applies to no matter what you do.
If I got to do 10,
I should prepare for 20 you get a much better experience out of it.
(35:06):
So we always want to design that way.
We always want to think about the technology in that way because that's how you get the most out of your gear at the exact same time.
And you in turn extend the life of your gear because now it's built for that next level.
What does technology do as it improves?
Well,
we're going to the next level.
So we're already ready to go for it.
So you're kind of future proofing at the exact same time.
(35:28):
Exactly.
All right.
How do you feel about,
uh,
some demo tracks?
Mark,
oh,
demo tracks.
I'm,
I'm good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So,
on this week's episode,
(35:49):
uh,
we got a couple demo tracks for you.
So,
Mark,
what is one of your audio demo tracks that you think we should be listening to?
Sure.
Um,
so one of my favorite tracks to,
to demo is,
uh,
it was actually one of the first tracks that I,
I really ever practiced on.
(36:09):
Um because this artist actually uh came to the store in Nashville and met with one of our colleagues and um brought his CD in and let him listen to it and he came back in another time.
I happened to run into him and uh it's a artist by the name of Kim and it's uh it's called,
why would you stay?
(36:29):
Um And if you've never listened to it,
he,
he's an R and B artist.
Um And at the beginning,
there's this piano track,
uh just him sitting at the piano playing,
he starts singing.
Uh And then as the song progresses,
there's um kind of a slide guitar that kind of goes back and forth across uh the back of the sound stage between the left and right speaker.
(36:56):
Um And it's uh it's one of my favorite tracks.
His voice is very dynamic as well for male vocalist.
So,
um really one of my favorite tracks,
honestly,
I'm kind of upset that.
I haven't used it in a while because it was.
So,
I'm sure you remember,
I probably played it 100 times when we were practicing.
So.
Yep.
(37:16):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well,
I'm gonna take uh folks also kind of into a similar direction.
I'm gonna talk about Jacob Collier and his song,
Moon River.
Uh This is one of those where um he has this amazing ability uh to record and dub over his own vocals.
(37:39):
And uh I first heard about him actually from Herbie Hancock,
which is really crazy,
you know,
master class.
I'm sure you've seen the answer there.
I have my,
considered it a couple of times.
My brother sent it to my wife and I for Christmas one year and we were like,
oh,
that's awesome.
Like we'll check it out and lo and behold,
there's Herbie,
you know,
doing a class on the keys and I'm going,
(38:01):
oh my goodness,
this is fantastic.
And he goes,
I was listening to Jacob Collier and really enjoyed his stuff and I go well,
who's that guy?
And lo and behold,
he just takes jazz to a completely new level.
His interpretations are phenomenal.
Uh And Moon River is one of those that really put him on the map,
I think um he uh he'll harmonize in some cases 13 or 14 times over himself.
(38:25):
So you need a really good set of speakers to hear everything that's gonna happen.
But from an artistic interpretation level uh chord changes the way that he does the dynamics uh of his own voice.
It's just incredible.
Absolutely fantastic.
So highly,
highly recommend Jacob Collier Moon River 13 to 14 times.
(38:47):
He goes over his voice.
Is that what he said?
That's incredible.
I mean,
I've got to listen to this.
Honestly.
It's one of those things where uh he's playing a 13 chord or,
uh or something along those lines and he's got,
you know,
a couple of octaves in there that are doubled up and you're just going,
man,
like the sheer amount of work.
(39:09):
That's just phenomenal.
So,
all right.
Uh What's your second one?
What's your uh second demo track of the week?
Sure.
Um This one was shown to me originally on a pair of Bowers and Wilkins uh 805 and they were the Maserati edition at the time.
(39:32):
Um Yeah,
a beautiful pair of speakers.
They were brought up at the time.
We didn't have a location here yet.
So,
one of my colleague,
our colleagues from Atlanta drove up here and brought them to demo and uh he played this song from Alison Kraus and Union Station called The Boy who wouldn't ho the boy who wouldn't hoe corn.
(39:55):
And,
um,
you know,
I love Union Station as it is.
I mean,
oh brother where Art Thou is one of my favorite movies and they did a lot of the,
the music in that.
So,
um,
and then Alison Krauss just has that,
that iconic voice that you just,
you know,
it as soon as you hear her start singing.
(40:15):
Um But the,
the one thing that,
that,
you know,
a lot of people don't think about bluegrass music is that it is a very,
I mean,
we've talked about mechanical things here,
like it's very mechanical audio.
You have an upright bass instead of an electric bass,
you have,
(40:35):
you know,
an acoustic guitar instead of an electric.
So you have these really deep rich sounds coming from these instruments and the recorded,
the recording is,
is phenomenal.
Um And there's a part where Allison and uh the other vocalists layer on top of each other and with the wrong speakers,
(40:57):
it's hard to hear it.
Like there's no differentiation.
But as you go to a better pair of speakers or a better set of speakers,
it's as if she's sitting just to the left of the,
the,
the other vocalist and you can hear the differentiation playing his day.
Um If you listen to it on a pair of headphones even you don't hear it as well as you do on a really good pair of speakers.
(41:20):
So,
um that's the boy who wouldn't ho Horn by uh Alison Kraus and Union Station.
Awesome.
Well,
I like Alison Kraus.
I never got a chance to listen to a ton of her stuff.
Um,
a brother we're out there,
I'm sure we played that on repeat for forever.
Not gonna lie to you.
(41:41):
But,
uh,
uh,
that being said,
I love the fact that you went acoustic with it too because you're right.
When you listen to certain instruments the way they're recorded,
they're just gonna resonate in a different way.
And,
uh,
it really does a phenomenal job.
All right.
The last one I'll,
uh,
I'll share for this week a classic which is,
(42:03):
uh,
sunrise by Norah Jones.
And I know that's not fair because we've heard that song.
It is fair.
It is fair.
That's a,
that's a great,
a great album.
It's a really good one.
Don't know why.
It is also really good,
but sunrise,
uh,
I think is kind of one of those classics where you hear her vocals,
(42:25):
you have the upright bass,
um,
you hear the piano and there's something about it that just sort of,
um,
all the,
the way the instrumentation is done,
there's almost like a spotlight on each instrument.
And so it's one of those where the separation between the instruments is so stark and so clear that it will make any set of speakers good or bad,
(42:50):
quite honestly,
sound really,
really,
really good because,
um,
the production on it is just absolutely stellar and so definitely recommend Sunrise,
uh,
by Norah Jones.
Um And again,
the whole record is phenomenal.
So if you could just hit,
play,
sit down and hang out,
I think,
(43:11):
I think my favorite track is actually creeping in with Dolly Parton.
Oh,
yes.
I mean,
as soon as you said that I'm like,
oh my gosh,
I need to go listen to this and specifically that song.
Yeah,
they're really,
really good.
If she's got some others.
I don't know why.
That are absolutely fantastic too.
Like if I were a painter and some of the other ones that are just very delicate,
(43:34):
really well recorded stuff.
So,
go,
go hang out with so Nora Jones and have a wonderful,
wonderful time.
All right.
Well,
thank you for listening uh to The Sound of Design with uh Mark and Dan and uh please like,
comment and subscribe.
Uh If you have questions or you want us to design a system for you,
(43:55):
please uh reach out to us at the Sound of Design dot com.
Uh There's a little uh a spot where you can reach out to us.
So go ahead and you fill out that form and uh we'll be more than happy to get in touch with you and we will see you on the next episode,
see you.
Well,
welcome to the Sound of Design with Mark and Dan and thank you very much for joining us and hanging out with us today.
Uh We are very excited about today's episode because we will be talking about things that are not product specific and we'll talk a little bit about those things like as they apply.
(01:00):
But for the most part,
uh we really want to talk about how to think about your technology and how to think about some of the principles and the rules of how technology works across a ton of different uh parts of the industry.
And so these are things that will apply towards computers and cell phones,
(01:21):
uh stereos and TV.
S and it's kind of the guiding principles to how you would want to think through uh a technology design.
And one of the very first things that I learned very,
very,
very quickly was that there's this idea called Do it right the first time.
(01:45):
Hey,
I've heard that somewhere.
Um You know,
it's honestly Mark,
I,
I don't know how else to say it.
Sometimes it's like some people get it and some people don't and I don't know why some people insist on doing things the hard way.
But they just,
(02:06):
they,
they,
they kind of drag you on a leash a little bit.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I mean,
yeah,
it,
it happens way way too often in my opinion.
So,
anyway,
uh,
let's,
uh,
let's do this.
Uh,
let's talk a little bit about,
(02:26):
um,
some of the,
the things that we'll get into.
So we'll talk about Moore's Law here in just a second.
Uh We'll talk a little bit about um,
chip driven technology versus mechanical technology.
Uh We'll talk about specialization.
We'll talk a little bit about analog and digital.
We'll talk a little bit about headroom,
you know,
things like that.
So,
(02:47):
um to,
to kind of start with,
um what is the difference between a chip driven technology and a mechanical technology?
Sure.
Sure.
So anything chip driven,
you know,
you probably know a lot about it from the uh the past couple of years where there was a chip shortage,
(03:09):
if you've ever heard that uh is anything that's gonna essentially use a microprocessor,
a computer chip of some sort that's going to,
you know,
process whatever it is you're doing.
So,
you know,
in our industry,
it's typically the brains of control systems or a V processors that are doing a digital and analog conversion of some sort or televisions or said really anything that you,
(03:34):
you probably use on a regular basis that you interact with,
you know,
cell phone is another big one.
mechanical technology.
You're thinking more like amplifiers,
speakers,
something along those lines that essentially just take in the signal and play it.
Right.
So,
you know,
your speaker other than the crossover,
(03:56):
which is still just essentially a,
a board with different capacitors and other things on there to process the signal.
It's not really a process,
it's just passing through.
I'm really glad you kind of gave us the application of it because they are really big categories,
right?
If you think about the way a cell phone works,
(04:16):
it's designed to work for a few years,
you're gonna get maybe 34 years out of it.
But eventually that thing is gonna stop working the way that it's supposed to.
And it's because it's reliant upon that chip.
Whereas when you think about mechanical technologies,
they have a much longer lifespan.
And so one of the biggest things that you'll notice is that speakers,
(04:37):
for example,
last a long time,
and we've sort of said that a bunch of times in a bunch of different ways,
you know,
if you put a pair of speakers and you cut them into your wall or into your ceiling,
uh those are gonna last a long time.
They're part of the house that's a 15 year or a 20 year kind of a purchase and kind of technology.
Now,
it's still technology,
(04:57):
they're still electronics,
they're still gonna do the things that they're supposed to do but you do have a much different appreciation for the type of thing that you're getting and what to expect out of it.
I don't think anyone would want to buy a cell phone and say this is going to be my cell phone for the next 20 years.
Right.
Like,
(05:18):
it's just,
it sounds weird to even see it that way.
Yep.
Yep.
I mean,
my,
my mother-in-law does still use a flip phone.
So,
you know,
I mean,
it is about 67 years old,
but I don't even know how the thing works.
So,
could you imagine a 20 year old trying to use a 20 year old cell phone?
Well,
and you think about what's gonna happen,
(05:38):
is it gonna be compatible on that cellular network as they continue to update and change and,
you know,
improve and,
you know,
so on and so forth.
And the answer is like,
no,
it's not gonna be compatible and then it's gonna stop working.
And so I think when you start thinking about networking,
when you think about your control systems,
when you think about uh those things that are going to have to change on a regular basis,
(06:03):
then you start realizing that there's two kind of categories and the one that's chip driven should be treated as a short term strategy and the one that's mechanical should be considered the long term strategy.
And my favorite example of that is Macintosh amplifiers.
(06:26):
It was told to me that when you buy a Macintosh amplifier,
you're supposed to look at the customer and say this is the last AMP you are ever going to buy ever because you don't ever need to replace this.
That's it like you're done.
Like you,
you did the thing.
Yep.
Yep.
I mean,
I,
(06:46):
I went to,
uh,
when I visited the,
the Macintosh uh factory and headquarters up in Binghamton,
New York that was,
you're joining the club with us.
You know,
it's the same club that a Ferrari owner joins when they buy a Ferrari just instead of it,
you know,
driving around places,
it,
(07:07):
it plays back your audio at the best quality possible.
So um definitely a long term purchase.
Yeah,
and there's a very interesting thing and we're going to get into Moore's law here a little bit and I kind of want to bring it up because this is one of those old technology laws that has kind of shaped the last 30 years.
(07:29):
And if you're not familiar with it,
essentially,
uh there was uh a leader who noticed that the technology that they were developing and the chips that they were developing were improving their ability to do research and development into chip manufacturing.
And so what kept happening is as they would develop a chip,
(07:52):
it would give them the technology to develop a better chip.
And he started to notice that about every 18 months that the production quality,
the speed that they would develop these things at would double and in doing so they would actually be able to bring the cost of production down by about half.
(08:18):
And so people have kind of seen this happen over and over.
You look at a cell phone and then another two years goes by and the technology company is looking at you going like,
hey,
we've got this brand new thing and it's awesome.
It's fantastic and it's twice as fast as the old one.
And guess what,
that old technology is now,
half the price that it used to be funny how that works.
(08:45):
And so for like 20 or 30 years,
we've been doing this,
we've had this cycle that happens over and over and over and over again.
And while we are definitely improving today,
um in terms of the speed at which we're able to process,
we also have this ability to reduce the amount of energy consumption that a chip is going to produce as well.
(09:07):
And I know the guys out of Israel at Intel had a big part to do with this where they started realizing like,
just because you can get a faster chip.
If it's not more efficient,
you're just putting more fuel into a bigger engine.
And so there is a point at which we've also started to realize like efficiency is a big part of that technological uh process as well.
(09:28):
So now that you sort of understand that how long should I be looking at certain chip driven technologies in terms of their lifespan?
Sure.
Um I mean,
you mentioned cell phones,
most of us have kind of programmed it into our brain at this point that we need to upgrade our phones every 2 to 3 years.
(09:49):
And you know,
a lot of your cellphone manufacturers or,
or sellers are seeing that.
So they have a 2 to 3 year contract,
whatever that you sign up for now,
like the AT&T next program or something where you pay on the phone every so often.
It's uh it's basically like they're loaning you the phone until you pay it off type thing.
Uh instead of an actual contract but kind of that direction,
(10:10):
you know,
I,
I'm gonna loop TV S into that too.
Uh TV,
technology has gotten,
I mean,
it,
it just,
it upgrades so fast.
I mean,
I know that we're at eight K at this point and it would surprise me if we heard anything about anything past eight K for a while.
I know it exists,
but it just really hasn't even caught on in the TV market.
Gosh,
three or four years ago before the new gaming consoles came out to.
(10:34):
Now,
you have,
you know,
panels that could,
that were just four K and they could do HDR or HDR 10.
And now you have HDR 10 plus Dolby vision with variable refresh rates for gaming and low,
low response times things like that.
So,
and you're just talking a matter of,
of years.
(10:54):
I mean,
I like,
I know I talked on the last episode about upgrading my TV.
The TV,
I had was on almost four years old,
I guess.
And it's night and day difference,
what my new TV can do compared to the old one just when it comes to things like gaming.
So,
and then,
you know,
uh a V processors,
(11:16):
you know,
a a as technology is upgraded with displays,
anything that's gonna process video will also need to be upgraded.
I know that a lot of uh like when four K launched Blue Ray players had an HDM I out for video and an HDM I out for audio.
So you kind of get around the need to upgrade,
but especially with,
you know,
(11:36):
the unfortunate,
you know,
downhill demise of physical media R IP as it's coming.
Um but I,
I don't,
I hope it doesn't,
but as it does,
um you know,
you probably won't see as many changes there or as many options as far as what you can do to get past having to upgrade that technology.
I look at computers as another really big one that are gonna have a much shorter lifespan.
(12:00):
Uh I think I can,
you know,
safely say if you buy the top of the line computer and you know,
max out everything you possibly can the fastest RA M and you know,
the biggest,
fastest processor you can get and so on and so forth.
You might get four or five years out of that thing.
And that's doing pretty well.
Right.
(12:20):
And so you take a look at that and say,
all right,
I know I can,
you know,
rock this for a while,
but that's got to be the,
the short strategy that has to be the,
the thing that it's probably actually going to make more sense not to go all the way with it.
And I know it sounds kind of weird.
It's like,
you know,
(12:41):
in a sense,
I kind of want the best processing,
I can get to feed my system the best food that I possibly can get.
But from a financial perspective,
I think there's an argument to be made to say like I just want to match my level.
I probably shouldn't overextend in that particular area because if the technology changes in three years and something new comes out that I want to have as part of my system,
(13:07):
then I'm gonna be stuck and nobody wants to invest,
you know,
30 or $40,000 into processing.
Um,
you know,
because then then you're stuck with whatever that is for a short period of time.
It's like that doesn't make sense if you're gonna do a nice theater room,
you know what?
Yeah,
you could invest,
(13:27):
you know,
5 10 15 in processing.
That makes sense.
You know,
if you're doing a JB L synthesis if you're doing Macintosh,
if you're doing.
Yeah.
Ok.
Like I get it,
there's nice processors out there.
But should I have all my eggs in that basket?
Yeah.
Maybe not,
maybe,
(13:47):
maybe not.
I mean,
I,
I uh,
I recently before upgrading the TV,
last year,
upgraded um to a navy processor.
I know in our surround sound episode we talked about using a navy receiver and separates,
um I upgraded to a full on a V processor and then Moran went out and released the A V 10 which is a monster and I'm an 88 05.
(14:12):
A not a,
not a bad processor by any means,
but you know,
it's a pretty substantial upgrade.
Um So I'm kinda kicking myself a little bit for not waiting,
but it's all good.
I still get most of what I want out of it,
but that A V 10 is sexy.
Well,
and that's exactly the point,
right?
Like,
so you're gonna spend again to get,
keep yourself up to date.
(14:33):
So do I wanna put all those eggs in that basket?
Now,
let's do a flip side.
Let's take a look at the mechanical style of that equation and say I invest into an A V rack and I put in there a phenomenal audio quest,
Niagara 7000,
for example.
And we've got,
(14:53):
let's call it a couple of MC 4 62 and you're going to do a very nice stereo system.
Do you want to spend all that money again and again and again and again.
No,
definitely not.
You do not.
Once you do that system,
(15:13):
that's the last AMP you're ever gonna buy,
that's the whole point you may add to it.
You may go from stereo to surround sound.
All right.
Absolutely.
Let's add another AMP to the system,
but you don't lose on what you've already invested into that first one.
Right?
It kind of takes us to the next kind of rule or thought process that occurs uh which is specialization.
(15:38):
So uh when I say that word,
I mean that word,
taking a function and we're specializing a piece of gear to only do that one function.
So it's kind of like this idea for people.
Uh if you go to a doctor and he is a general practice doctor,
(16:02):
he's not going to be doing brain surgery,
right?
He's going to do your physical,
but he's not going to do the specific Oper operation.
And likewise,
you would never go to the brain surgeon for the physical because that guy doesn't do him.
He's a specialist.
Well,
with technology,
the same idea,
right?
Certain gear can be specialized in,
(16:23):
into doing very specific processes.
So mark,
where would we see a specialization kind of start and what are some of the things that we can start expecting as a benefit to doing specialization?
Sure.
Um I mean,
just we've been talking about a V processors.
So that's,
that's a big one.
(16:45):
And the reason why I kind of throw it in that category is if you think of it,
a V receiver,
what is it?
It's got a section for your speakers.
So that means you've got an amplifier built in,
um it's got a section four processing.
So the preamps built in and it typically has a tuner for over the air radio signals because people still do that.
(17:11):
An A V processor typically,
well,
depending on which one you go with will remove,
definitely remove the amplification.
A really good one will also remove your uh tuner for over the air.
And in some cases also remove any wireless or digital functionality whatsoever because they know there are other devices that specialize in doing it better.
(17:37):
So we've been talking about Macintosh.
So they have uh the MX 1 80 is their top tier A B processor currently and it's just ins and outs and,
and digital and analog ins and analog outputs to amplifiers.
So if you want to stream music,
(17:58):
you can buy,
you can buy the Macintosh streamer,
you can buy a run,
you can buy a blue sound node,
you buy Sonos,
all of those devices specialize in streaming audio and they can connect to your Macintosh processor.
Macintosh also makes a separate tuner.
So if you really want over the air,
they have a dedicated device for that.
(18:20):
And by doing so you're eliminating noise transfer inside of the box because it's specializing in that one piece.
So now the noise is only gonna come from the interconnects between the two devices.
I love the fact that you went to the noise because that is the idea that is so uh critical and we talked a little bit about it before.
(18:44):
But this concept that the gear introduces noise,
right?
This concept that no gear is perfect,
no matter how much money you spend,
you could spend millions upon millions of dollars.
There's still going to be some sort of noise or distortion that the gear itself is going to introduce.
And so you're absolutely right.
When you specialize all of that noise can now be dealt with and controlled on an individual level,
(19:09):
you can do take the exact same principle though into other parts of our industry,
you could take that principle and apply it to uh networking,
for example,
have a dedicated router.
All it does is route digital signals and have a dedicated wireless access point.
(19:29):
All it does is broadcast Wi Fi and make sure that it gives you the best strongest broadcast with the most patterns.
Uh You can do that with your network switches.
You can have just a generic switch or you can have an audio video bridge switch or an A VB switch.
Uh You can have a AVB and uh power over Ethernet or uh Poe switch.
(19:54):
And so as you start thinking about it,
you could have a specific switch to do all of the specific functions that you want.
And that means that when there's an issue or when there's a problem,
you can go back and you can trace it and you can say,
oh,
that one piece is what's causing that problem.
Oh,
that one function.
(20:15):
That's where the issue is.
And so think about this for a second,
let's say you invest into a nice system,
spend 15 to $20,000 and your system doesn't work.
Well,
that's the first thing you're going to start asking.
Well,
ok.
Well,
what's not working in it while the TV turns on?
Or the projector turns on.
So I know it's not the end line there.
(20:36):
Nothing wrong with my speakers.
So we have no issues with that part of it.
The A V processor turns on the amplifiers turn on.
But for some reason,
we're not getting a Netflix signal.
It's like,
oh,
well,
maybe we could go look at a specialized piece of gear like the Apple TV.
Or we could go a step further back and say,
oh,
it's the network switch and then we can go a further step back and say,
(20:59):
oh no,
it's the router itself.
Oh no,
it's the modem.
We don't have internet signal.
And as you work your way backwards,
piece by piece by piece by piece,
and now you don't have to toss out a $20,000 system.
Maybe I'm just replacing a $200 switch or 100 and $50 Apple TV,
because that's the chip driven technology that's failed because it's been two years and you can save the rest of your system,
(21:28):
uh,
and make that work if it sounds like I've maybe had that conversation once or twice.
Um,
I've replaced my Apple TV just recently because,
I mean,
I know they're,
they're one of the best streaming devices out there.
But man,
they,
uh I do feel like they're programmed to fail at some point.
It's,
well,
and I don't even know that it was programmed.
(21:49):
I think it's just the,
the,
the pure,
the pure fact of that chip was not designed to last forever.
I just wanna,
I just wanna say it's programmed to fail,
but I don't actually believe that for sure,
for sure.
Um I mean,
I still use most of them here but we do ask a lot of them.
I mean,
(22:09):
that's my main media hub in my system.
Every device I have streams Netflix,
but I use the Apple TV to do that.
Right.
So it would make sense that if I'm asking,
I'm,
I'm putting it to work a lot that it's probably gonna need to be upgraded sooner.
Let's take this idea to more of a hi fi direction because we've talked about it now with a bunch of different types of uh gear.
(22:34):
But in the hi fi world,
it's a principle that's known as analog versus digital and this is an argument that's gone back.
I don't know,
60 years,
70 years it seems like very,
very,
very long time old hi fi guys are sitting around in shops going,
you know,
I don't like that new digital stuff and it's a problem and so on and so forth and,
(22:57):
uh,
to be fair it probably did not sound good when it first came out.
Uh,
probably not.
I remember my first experience with digital audio and I think it was like dolby stereo or Dolby Pro logic or something.
And while it was cool,
it came out on multiple speakers,
it was not,
I mean,
(23:17):
you'd have to crank it compared to the analog sound.
The volume is just so much,
so much lower because there are less snippets of,
of digital signals.
So maybe talk us through a little bit just maybe like give me a little bit of what is analog and a little bit of what is the digital and kind of where,
where that started and how that directly relates to,
(23:39):
to Hi Fi.
Sure.
So,
you know,
digital digital analog conversion is taking a digital signal which is typically a binary signal.
So ones and zeros is what you'll hear.
People refer to it as uh into an analog signal.
You don't typically have snippets of sound,
you just have the full signal,
(23:59):
right?
When you have a digital signal,
it is snippets.
So that's where when we were talking about the hi fi guys,
older quality digital signals didn't have enough frames or,
or snips of that audio to recreate it as naturally as they were used to hearing on an analog system nowadays though.
(24:23):
It's getting pretty,
it's getting pretty good.
I mean,
you've got decks that can do up to 100 and 92 kilohertz,
which is just insane when it comes to the amount of,
uh,
snippets that you can take of a digital signal.
Uh compared to even CD,
which was what,
44 44 1 so 44,100 Hertz.
(24:45):
Uh There are still people out there that love that analog signal.
I love turning on my turntable and listening every once in a while.
The biggest thing you will notice still is uh signal quality volume is what you'll notice the difference.
At least for me,
you know,
when you're turning on the turntable,
if I've got the,
the right preamp,
it's gonna boost that signal enough to where I don't have to turn it up as loud.
(25:08):
But I go to the same thing on a digital player and it,
I might have to turn it up a little bit louder because of the,
the digital signal just not being as loud.
Well,
and I think the,
the idea too is that when you go to a digital format,
you know,
you said it right with the snippets,
it's like you've got to take sections of your picture Right.
(25:32):
And so I think it's,
it's fair to say like we've all seen a pixel uh image,
right?
Well,
what happened?
Will you,
will you lose the resolution?
You lose the detail,
you lose the clarity,
you're just getting blocks,
you're getting a dark spot and a bright spot,
right?
And if you're in color it's like here's a green spot and a blue spot.
(25:53):
I didn't get really the blue sky and I didn't get really green grass.
I got a chunk of green or a chunk of blue.
And at the same thing happens uh in,
in audio,
the same thing happens in hi fi,
you,
you can get those chunks to be smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller.
(26:16):
And as that continues to get smaller and smaller,
your resolution continues to improve.
And so it's this perfect analogy of how in focus or how clear do you want that uh sound to be?
And it's easy for us to visualize,
but it's not as easy I think to hear uh until you get to a certain point where you've actually put in a nicer stereo system.
(26:41):
Quite honestly,
if you don't put in something halfway decent,
you'll never notice the difference.
Because if uh you only had,
for example,
a screen and I know this sounds silly.
But if it only had eight blocks available,
if your cell phone only had eight buttons on it,
like you'd never be able to tell anything,
you wouldn't be able to have words,
you wouldn't be able to,
(27:02):
it's just chunky all the time,
right?
So,
like you need to have a certain amount of resolution capable in order to give yourself that detail and really enjoy what is uh what's going on.
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
And,
and I love the kind of the analogy that you gave there.
(27:23):
One of the biggest things that has come along in the past couple of years that uh people ask for a lot is,
hey,
I want a turntable that's Bluetooth.
And uh and you know what,
I,
I get it like I'm an audio snob per se.
But you know,
you're literally,
when you take Bluetooth,
(27:44):
you're taking,
it's the same thing.
You take a bunch of,
you take that full signal right off the record and it's gonna take it and break it up into millions of little cubes and send it over there and,
you know,
to a Bluetooth speaker or something,
whatever else that you want.
And then that's gonna try to take and put all those cubes back together in time in the right place and try to recreate that signal and it just isn't designed for that,
(28:09):
right?
You're,
you're never going to recreate that sound over Bluetooth by going with the turntable.
You're kind of committing to that analog signal,
right?
Utilize a preamp.
I know we've talked before about,
you know,
turntables providing that,
that analog or that sit down and relax and have your favorite beverage experience.
(28:31):
That's what it's designed for and you will hear a difference and it'll be,
you know,
and in my opinion,
one of the best experience you can have listening to music.
And so now you kind of get to the,
the idea of,
well,
why do I need some of these extra pieces?
And you start realizing like,
oh,
well,
the preamp is that piece that's gonna handle that creation of the signal,
(28:55):
getting it it a lot louder,
right?
As you were saying earlier in a very clean,
very clear way because you have actual voltage that's being turned up,
right?
We're not just doing math and hoping that a processor is going to send that signal someplace else.
It's like,
no,
I,
I,
I'm not just going times too,
(29:16):
I'm actually turning up uh a physical or mechanical process and I think that makes a big difference in the way that the quality is.
It's the same difference between hamburger and steak.
You know,
it's,
I understand it's the exact same animal.
I know I shouldn't have gone through because now everybody's hungry.
(29:38):
Yep,
it's almost dinner time.
Um But you think about it,
hamburger,
ground beef is all chopped up,
you know,
can you put it together?
Can you put it back together?
Yeah,
you can put it back together.
Is it the same as the steak?
No,
no,
no.
I mean,
you can smash it together,
you know,
that's been popular.
Smash it with other things like onions or whatever.
(30:01):
But it's still not a steak onions.
Mm.
I think I've derailed the show.
It's all good.
It's all good.
Maybe we'll do a cooking episode next.
Uh,
there you go.
Well,
to that point.
Uh,
all right.
Well,
the last thing that we want to do is,
(30:25):
uh,
talk a little bit about headroom.
Um,
because that's kind of like the last,
uh,
concept in terms of strategy and it goes beyond audio,
but it starts in audio and then we kind of apply that principle to other uh other areas.
So Mark,
tell me a little bit about headroom and what the concept is there.
(30:47):
Sure.
I mean,
the best way that I could do it is just kind of give an example.
And it's an example of one of the first times that you and I sat down after we did this remodel at our,
at our store to get a lot of this,
this really cool stuff that we've been talking to you all about over the past few months.
And uh it was,
you would bring in your,
(31:08):
your Mac and you'd hook it directly into a Navy processor and you would actually drag a,
a music file into pro tools.
Uh And you would play it back at different at different uh sample rates while the track itself wasn't done in,
you know,
(31:28):
1 92 it was probably a 44 1 track it wasn't a high res audio track,
but just putting it in and then playing it back through pro tools and utilizing the additional processing that was in there.
The headroom that you had was just,
I'm not gonna say it was astronomically higher,
but it was noticeably higher.
(31:50):
And what I mean by that is that,
you know,
one of my favorite tracks is a song by Michael Buble where he's snapping at the beginning of it.
And you went from like,
I've listened to that track 100 times.
You listen to him snapping and it's like,
ok,
yeah,
he's in the room snapping to when he snaps.
You can hear the room,
the,
the sound echo around the space that he's in.
(32:10):
And that is something that you,
that you can't just recreate on any system.
You have to have that better processing.
But because of that additional headroom,
we now have the ability to hear that if that makes sense,
it does and uh I'll kind of call it out a slightly different way.
It's how far away is the loudest potential sound compared to the actual signal itself.
(32:38):
And maybe that's a good way to say it if I turn something in up to 50 but I have the ability to go all the way to 100.
How well is that sound going to sound at 50 compared to maxing it out and pushing it all the way.
Mhm I,
it's,
and that's exactly what you're describing,
(32:59):
like you have this extra process and you have this extra room to be able to hear all of the extra stuff that is already there.
Because you can remember all the pro guys,
they're already working at that higher resolution format.
They work at the highest quality possible because they know that it's only ever gonna degrade,
it's never gonna improve.
(33:20):
So you've only got a one way degradation street.
So you got to start at the very,
very,
very,
very,
very best in order to maintain good quality throughout your process.
So it's like that means I don't want to have a,
to use cars as the analogy.
I don't want a car that maxes out at fif 50 miles an hour.
If I have to go 50 miles an hour,
(33:40):
I need a car that can go 100 if I need a car that's gonna go 70 miles an hour on a regular basis.
It can't just top out at 70 it has to go 100 and 40.
I don't take it to 100 and 40.
Maybe you do,
maybe you do if there's any police officers listening,
I love you and I obey all of the traffic laws all the time.
(34:03):
100% of the time,
always,
always,
always.
All right.
So,
uh you have to have a car that can do more than what it's capable of.
So I,
I think this is the,
the same thing if I have a networking piece of gear.
I don't want to buy a network switch that only has four ports because I need four ports.
(34:24):
I want to buy a networking piece of gear that has eight ports.
So I know that the four that I have are going to work the way that they're supposed to.
Uh And I hate to be so silly about it that way.
But like if I know that I'm gonna use a computer to do video editing,
for example,
and I'm gonna use a lot of ra M like,
(34:45):
I'm gonna need 16 gig,
you know,
gigabits of ra M.
I should probably get the machine with 32.
So I have the headroom,
so I'm not maxing out that machine's capabilities.
It's one of those things that it applies to no matter what you do.
If I got to do 10,
I should prepare for 20 you get a much better experience out of it.
(35:06):
So we always want to design that way.
We always want to think about the technology in that way because that's how you get the most out of your gear at the exact same time.
And you in turn extend the life of your gear because now it's built for that next level.
What does technology do as it improves?
Well,
we're going to the next level.
So we're already ready to go for it.
So you're kind of future proofing at the exact same time.
(35:28):
Exactly.
All right.
How do you feel about,
uh,
some demo tracks?
Mark,
oh,
demo tracks.
I'm,
I'm good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
So,
on this week's episode,
(35:49):
uh,
we got a couple demo tracks for you.
So,
Mark,
what is one of your audio demo tracks that you think we should be listening to?
Sure.
Um,
so one of my favorite tracks to,
to demo is,
uh,
it was actually one of the first tracks that I,
I really ever practiced on.
(36:09):
Um because this artist actually uh came to the store in Nashville and met with one of our colleagues and um brought his CD in and let him listen to it and he came back in another time.
I happened to run into him and uh it's a artist by the name of Kim and it's uh it's called,
why would you stay?
(36:29):
Um And if you've never listened to it,
he,
he's an R and B artist.
Um And at the beginning,
there's this piano track,
uh just him sitting at the piano playing,
he starts singing.
Uh And then as the song progresses,
there's um kind of a slide guitar that kind of goes back and forth across uh the back of the sound stage between the left and right speaker.
(36:56):
Um And it's uh it's one of my favorite tracks.
His voice is very dynamic as well for male vocalist.
So,
um really one of my favorite tracks,
honestly,
I'm kind of upset that.
I haven't used it in a while because it was.
So,
I'm sure you remember,
I probably played it 100 times when we were practicing.
So.
Yep.
(37:16):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well,
I'm gonna take uh folks also kind of into a similar direction.
I'm gonna talk about Jacob Collier and his song,
Moon River.
Uh This is one of those where um he has this amazing ability uh to record and dub over his own vocals.
(37:39):
And uh I first heard about him actually from Herbie Hancock,
which is really crazy,
you know,
master class.
I'm sure you've seen the answer there.
I have my,
considered it a couple of times.
My brother sent it to my wife and I for Christmas one year and we were like,
oh,
that's awesome.
Like we'll check it out and lo and behold,
there's Herbie,
you know,
doing a class on the keys and I'm going,
(38:01):
oh my goodness,
this is fantastic.
And he goes,
I was listening to Jacob Collier and really enjoyed his stuff and I go well,
who's that guy?
And lo and behold,
he just takes jazz to a completely new level.
His interpretations are phenomenal.
Uh And Moon River is one of those that really put him on the map,
I think um he uh he'll harmonize in some cases 13 or 14 times over himself.
(38:25):
So you need a really good set of speakers to hear everything that's gonna happen.
But from an artistic interpretation level uh chord changes the way that he does the dynamics uh of his own voice.
It's just incredible.
Absolutely fantastic.
So highly,
highly recommend Jacob Collier Moon River 13 to 14 times.
(38:47):
He goes over his voice.
Is that what he said?
That's incredible.
I mean,
I've got to listen to this.
Honestly.
It's one of those things where uh he's playing a 13 chord or,
uh or something along those lines and he's got,
you know,
a couple of octaves in there that are doubled up and you're just going,
man,
like the sheer amount of work.
(39:09):
That's just phenomenal.
So,
all right.
Uh What's your second one?
What's your uh second demo track of the week?
Sure.
Um This one was shown to me originally on a pair of Bowers and Wilkins uh 805 and they were the Maserati edition at the time.
(39:32):
Um Yeah,
a beautiful pair of speakers.
They were brought up at the time.
We didn't have a location here yet.
So,
one of my colleague,
our colleagues from Atlanta drove up here and brought them to demo and uh he played this song from Alison Kraus and Union Station called The Boy who wouldn't ho the boy who wouldn't hoe corn.
(39:55):
And,
um,
you know,
I love Union Station as it is.
I mean,
oh brother where Art Thou is one of my favorite movies and they did a lot of the,
the music in that.
So,
um,
and then Alison Krauss just has that,
that iconic voice that you just,
you know,
it as soon as you hear her start singing.
(40:15):
Um But the,
the one thing that,
that,
you know,
a lot of people don't think about bluegrass music is that it is a very,
I mean,
we've talked about mechanical things here,
like it's very mechanical audio.
You have an upright bass instead of an electric bass,
you have,
(40:35):
you know,
an acoustic guitar instead of an electric.
So you have these really deep rich sounds coming from these instruments and the recorded,
the recording is,
is phenomenal.
Um And there's a part where Allison and uh the other vocalists layer on top of each other and with the wrong speakers,
(40:57):
it's hard to hear it.
Like there's no differentiation.
But as you go to a better pair of speakers or a better set of speakers,
it's as if she's sitting just to the left of the,
the,
the other vocalist and you can hear the differentiation playing his day.
Um If you listen to it on a pair of headphones even you don't hear it as well as you do on a really good pair of speakers.
(41:20):
So,
um that's the boy who wouldn't ho Horn by uh Alison Kraus and Union Station.
Awesome.
Well,
I like Alison Kraus.
I never got a chance to listen to a ton of her stuff.
Um,
a brother we're out there,
I'm sure we played that on repeat for forever.
Not gonna lie to you.
(41:41):
But,
uh,
uh,
that being said,
I love the fact that you went acoustic with it too because you're right.
When you listen to certain instruments the way they're recorded,
they're just gonna resonate in a different way.
And,
uh,
it really does a phenomenal job.
All right.
The last one I'll,
uh,
I'll share for this week a classic which is,
(42:03):
uh,
sunrise by Norah Jones.
And I know that's not fair because we've heard that song.
It is fair.
It is fair.
That's a,
that's a great,
a great album.
It's a really good one.
Don't know why.
It is also really good,
but sunrise,
uh,
I think is kind of one of those classics where you hear her vocals,
(42:25):
you have the upright bass,
um,
you hear the piano and there's something about it that just sort of,
um,
all the,
the way the instrumentation is done,
there's almost like a spotlight on each instrument.
And so it's one of those where the separation between the instruments is so stark and so clear that it will make any set of speakers good or bad,
(42:50):
quite honestly,
sound really,
really,
really good because,
um,
the production on it is just absolutely stellar and so definitely recommend Sunrise,
uh,
by Norah Jones.
Um And again,
the whole record is phenomenal.
So if you could just hit,
play,
sit down and hang out,
I think,
(43:11):
I think my favorite track is actually creeping in with Dolly Parton.
Oh,
yes.
I mean,
as soon as you said that I'm like,
oh my gosh,
I need to go listen to this and specifically that song.
Yeah,
they're really,
really good.
If she's got some others.
I don't know why.
That are absolutely fantastic too.
Like if I were a painter and some of the other ones that are just very delicate,
(43:34):
really well recorded stuff.
So,
go,
go hang out with so Nora Jones and have a wonderful,
wonderful time.
All right.
Well,
thank you for listening uh to The Sound of Design with uh Mark and Dan and uh please like,
comment and subscribe.
Uh If you have questions or you want us to design a system for you,
(43:55):
please uh reach out to us at the Sound of Design dot com.
Uh There's a little uh a spot where you can reach out to us.
So go ahead and you fill out that form and uh we'll be more than happy to get in touch with you and we will see you on the next episode,
see you.
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