October 23, 2023 • 50 mins
EPISODE 19 FINALLY ON VIDEO!!! https://youtu.be/Dhi_ds5ghK4?si=DM5Mfz4qdqatjaiH Thank you so much to KEF and David Tavares for coming in to chat about all things KEF. We talk about Uni-Q, wide dispersion, coaxial design, the legacy of the historic brand, design, trickle down technology, THX, demo songs, video games, video game collections, and more! Check us out on youtube now as well, like, and subscribe as we get this going into the next phase!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:24):
Well,
welcome to the Sound of Design with Mark and Dan and Dave.
Hey,
we are obviously very excited uh to have you guys with us.
This is our very first uh video podcast.
Uh and we have with us David Tavares from CF.
Thank you very much for being with us.
My pleasure,
gentlemen.
And congratulations to both of you.
(00:45):
Uh I've been listening and what you guys are doing with this podcast is absolutely awesome and catching a lot of attention in the industry.
So kudos to you too,
thank you very much.
Thank you.
Uh So,
uh I figure you work for a speaker brand.
So it may be a good idea for us to talk a little bit about speakers today.
(01:05):
Uh And uh some of the things I was hoping that we would be able to hit is uh just a little bit of an overview on speakers.
So maybe we'd start with like some of the different categories,
some of the different options that people have uh when they're thinking about doing speakers.
And then I also was hoping that we could kind of highlight some of the things that ce does.
That's so unique because quite honestly,
(01:27):
I love ce and I'm not supposed to say that and it's not that I don't like the other brands.
Um But uh you know,
when I first started in the industry,
I was listening to a lot of hi fi speakers and I have a pro audio background.
So my view and my expectation of what a speaker should be.
Uh I mean,
I had a very,
very,
very high threshold and Mark will remember,
(01:49):
I do remember before we,
uh we really got into uh some of the things that uh our location had sold,
we were kind of limited in our assortment.
And I'm gonna be honest,
I walk into that room and they're like,
you should listen to these great speakers and I'm going,
yeah.
So,
(02:10):
yeah.
And even before we were,
we,
we were a chef dealer,
like we had some great options available to us and there was no pleasing Dan.
It was just,
yeah,
it's,
they're,
they're,
they're OK,
they're fine.
So my snootiness is,
is gonna kind of come to the surface.
And uh I want to tell you everybody that uh when we picked up KF um I was just through the moon because finally I had speakers that I could sell.
(02:36):
That sounded like,
well,
I wanted them to sound like,
um,
so I'm actually gonna kick it over to Mark real quick.
Could you start maybe with telling us a little bit about uh the speaker categories,
you know,
like,
what are the options when you're thinking about putting a speaker in a space,
be it for stereo or for surround sound?
(02:57):
Um And maybe let's,
you know,
talk a little bit about that.
Yeah.
So,
I mean,
there's a millions of different options out there and a lot of times when,
uh,
a client will walk into our space,
it can seem a little overwhelming.
So I always use that,
that easy question of like,
hey,
how do you want your sound to look?
(03:18):
Um And,
you know,
the first time I heard that it was kind of like unlocking that,
you know,
or,
or breaking the fourth wall,
so to speak in my brain,
like,
oh my gosh,
like,
why,
why am I worried about what it's gonna sound like if they don't like how it looks?
Right?
So,
being able to talk about,
you know,
do you want a speaker that's gonna disappear into the space?
(03:40):
Do you want something that's kind of medium size or large?
Um,
that was huge for us or for,
for me in particular?
Um,
so you have with that,
you have an in wall speaker which,
you know,
essentially disappears into the space.
You have a medium size like a bookshelf speaker and then you have a large speaker,
(04:00):
floor standing speaker.
Um,
and those are typically the,
the three options that you see or that we'll offer in most cases.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um,
so,
uh,
Dave,
when you guys start approaching,
let's say a tower speaker.
Um,
how do you guys at ce really think through that process?
(04:22):
Do you have like a specific design intent?
Do you have kind of a purpose or a philosophy that you guys try and adhere to or is it,
you know,
throw it at the wall and see what sticks or?
Well,
what's interesting about CF and I've learned now being there for four years that a lot of the product that we make is,
is truly a trickle down technology from some of our flagship product and blades and reference and things like that a lot of times.
(04:46):
So now,
you know,
maybe we'll get into a little bit more conversation about it,
but specifically the meta material,
right?
Uh first came out in,
in reference and then blades and,
and now is over into our series.
We're not gonna limit that core piece of technology that we use in some of our upper upper echelon product and not provided to people in a,
in a value price point thing.
So,
I it all starts with new material going into our flagship product and ultimately trickling down to other things throughout the line.
(05:12):
So,
uh just to translate what you put in the really,
really,
really nice stuff is what you put in the very accessible stuff.
Yes,
exactly.
Right.
Yes.
All right.
Awesome.
Well,
uh,
so in the tower speaker world,
um what are some of the,
the lines that you guys carry and uh what are some of the things I know we've kind of mentioned blades?
(05:37):
I know we've,
you know,
mentioned reference series.
Uh What was the difference between those two?
Like I,
we talked about how do you want your sound to look?
They have a very different aesthetic,
100% right.
So what was the,
the thought process behind uh those two lines?
Well,
well,
the genesis of Blade was really simply this thought,
(05:59):
right?
If we can take,
which is our core technology and what we use in 99% of the product that we make,
which is unique.
If we could take that to the furthest extent,
what would that product look like?
And in Blade that is,
you know,
having the,
the unique in the acoustic center of the two sets of Wolfers that we use with that.
And it was just meant to be a concept.
It was shown at a,
at a uh German audio show many,
(06:21):
many,
many years ago and just like any of any of these products that get shown off and say,
hey,
this is just a conceptual idea.
Something that we think is pretty cool.
You know,
we have no plans of manufacturing it all of a sudden,
you know,
took off like wildfire,
people wanted to buy it.
And so,
you know,
the engineers had to go back and go,
ok,
how do we make this for,
for the masses and it's been a highly successful speaker for us.
(06:42):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
So,
the Uni Q uh could you maybe talk us a little bit about what does that do for a speaker design in a space?
What's,
what's kind of the,
the,
the purpose behind that?
Because it's a coaxial design,
right?
So your,
your Tweeter is inside the midrange.
(07:03):
Um But you guys do some really weird things with that tweeter and weird in a good way.
Yeah.
So the whole thought process behind it,
right?
Versus using a traditional tweeter on top or Diop Polio type design as it relates to that is that there's a single apparent source of where sound is firing from,
right?
So all of our engineers look back and they think of things like uh for example,
(07:23):
like the human voice,
right?
There's a single point of space where all sound,
regardless of whether it's high frequencies,
mid frequencies,
low frequencies,
hopefully,
I've got a little bit more of low frequencies here,
but it's all coming from a single apparent,
you know,
space and point,
right?
Same thing with you look at an acoustic guitar,
right?
You look at the body or what's called,
I think it's actually called the sound hole of an acoustic guitar,
right?
(07:43):
That's typically where that sound is firing.
But and so what we try to do in any of our designs is have that,
you know,
that point in space where all the sound is firing from.
So it's not easy to do.
There's a lot of technology that comes into play and,
and frankly,
some of the early renditions of the uni U were good,
but they weren't great if you don't mind me asking,
is that like a two or three years cycle?
(08:05):
Is that like a five year cycle or it's just varied throughout the year,
it's just varied.
I think once a new product is introduced or for example,
a new tech that's introduced to the product,
I think it's an opportunity for engineers to go fresh again.
Hey,
let's see what we can prove.
We know that this was an issue with UNI Q in the past with the addition of this new technology.
Can I tweak it and make it better?
KFF frankly doesn't ever rest on its Laurels,
(08:27):
right?
You know,
I hear a lot of time in the industry.
Uh what's new with the new series?
Oh,
we've,
we've changed the crossover.
Oh,
cool,
cool.
Alright.
So do we like,
you know,
but um but no,
they,
they go really kind of ground up and try to figure out how they can make slight improvements on really everything that they're doing with the new design.
Awesome.
(08:47):
Yeah.
Well,
so I think we should kind of call out let's go to uh the home environment because a lot of what we do really is uh in that residential space.
We do some pro audio.
Um but there's a lot more high end residential.
And so when we kind of focus on uh what that looks like,
let's say that I want to put together a theater.
(09:08):
Um and I do want my speakers to kind of disappear a little bit.
I want to have a better aesthetic uh driven theater.
Um What series of ce speakers would you take me to my gosh,
I mean,
if at all possible,
I take it to our reference series product,
right?
I think we're one of the few brands out there that really truly offer a kind of a high performance,
(09:31):
high fi in wall or in ceiling solution.
Um You know,
there,
there isn't,
there's kind of an industry standing under its industry understanding if you will that once you go to an in wall or in ceiling solution,
that performance is lost just by the nature of the product that's there.
Uh We don't accept that.
Um,
you know,
our reference product that we make is hand built by the same gentleman who build things like blades and reference in the UK and they're arguably 95 98% of what a traditional box speaker sounds like.
(09:59):
So if we're trying to get a box type performance out of an end wall speaker,
it would be 100% reference series.
I'm glad you took us that direction and I've had a chance to listen to him when you're in a space that is dedicated and what I mean by that is you've got a screen or a,
a dedicated,
(10:19):
uh,
uh,
video,
uh,
wall or something along those lines.
And the whole purpose of that space is really just,
I want to watch movies.
I want to play games.
I want to watch sports and I want the best I can possibly get.
Um,
it,
it's,
it's amazing how the sound kind of disperses in a wide and even way.
(10:42):
And that's probably the thing that I really like about ce more than anything else is that,
that dispersion like is so different than everything else that everybody else seems to do.
Uh And I have this,
this,
this conversation with folks all the time.
It's like,
you know,
I don't want to redesign a room if I can avoid it.
(11:04):
Right.
I have to work with the space that I've got.
So how do I make sure that my uh speaker is going to sound the way that I want it to,
even if I have to be,
what,
six inches that way or a foot that way or something like so.
And if you recall,
like,
uh I have that project uh pretty close to our location that he has the 51 60 thxs and there are five of them and that was the third rendition of that room.
(11:32):
He had another manufacturer speakers in there prior both mid tier and high tier series from another manufacturer.
And the sound would just get lost because he has a big open wall on one side and it would just get lost into the rest of the house and he wanted something that was going to give him a little bit more of that directed experience.
(11:55):
And he,
uh,
I mean,
he loves them.
I,
if he,
he,
today,
if I told him,
hey,
we'll let you exchange anything to upgrade to something better.
He would exchange everything.
But those speakers.
Yeah,
on that note too,
what's interesting to me is,
you know,
you talked about dispersion is I always think of,
you know,
for a theater system,
(12:15):
I always think of the Adobe Atmos channels,
right?
And having that wide dispersion when you're talking about 2 to 4 to 6 channels that you're using for,
for Dolby Atmos.
Uh I I it's not often that I see people.
Uh you know,
I do see it happen.
I'd obviously like to see it more,
but for me,
it feels like regardless of what you chose for your kind of linear soundstage that Kev is the best option for Dol Me Amos if you're trying to get dispersion and get better coverage on multiple areas of seating there.
(12:40):
I mean,
even to the point Dolby laboratories today uses caffin ceiling product for their,
for their amost.
Absolutely.
Yeah,
it's kind of,
it's kind of known to be the go to option because of what you mentioned the dispersion characteristic of it so well.
And I think it makes sense because you have this problem,
which is you're trying to fill up space in a wide way and you've only got a single source to do that and every manufacturer has to solve this,
(13:09):
you know,
problem.
And so it's like to be able to do that in such a clean and such in an accurate way is one of those things that is so hard to do.
Um,
but without spending ungodly amounts of money,
it's like,
uh,
yeah,
if I had a $7 million budget,
(13:30):
we can do whatever you want.
It's like,
well,
of course,
all uh all right.
So,
uh one of the things I love about,
uh what you guys do in the theater space is that you have made sure that not only is Dolby using those,
but you guys are also THX Certified.
So tell me a little bit about why THX and what was kind of the thought process there.
(13:52):
Um And,
uh,
Mark,
could you just tell me what is THX Stand for?
Oh,
you're gonna throw me out,
you're gonna throw that out there to me.
Uh It stands for,
I have no idea off the top of my head.
Tom Holman experience.
Hey,
look at that.
You guys are way better at this job than I am.
So I know the sound it makes,
(14:15):
I love that.
I watched Star Wars.
It's like those videos.
You see what sound?
Do all men love the THX sound.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So good.
So why we chose THX,
uh,
frankly it's,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's a hard test.
Right.
It's a gauntlet of a test that you have to go through as a manufacturer to be able to pass and reach certain heights of THX certification.
(14:38):
Um,
there's other ones out there but I don't know if they're as stringent,
so to speak as,
as,
as THX is.
And so it's just kind of a,
uh it's a way to solidify the performance of what we're doing and what we're making is getting that THX certification done.
And from a perspective of,
I'm not sure if you should,
I'm not aware of this.
It's,
it's,
it's not cheap to get something THX certified and if you fail,
(15:00):
it's not like,
hey,
you get three tries and you get to go again afterwards,
you get one shot.
And if you don't pass that THX certification,
it's,
it's,
it's the whole process over again.
It's the same,
you know,
whole another investment that you have to make into it.
But,
um,
I,
I would like to think from an engineering standpoint,
you know,
that the folks over at the UK are engineering these products.
(15:22):
When they know that A THX certification is coming down the line for the product.
There's a little bit more thought and detail,
poignant planning that goes into a product,
uh just to make sure that it passed THX certification.
The first time goes through so well.
And I like the fact too that you have THX certified speakers at accessible price points.
(15:42):
And that to me because like,
you know,
we made the joke.
Yeah,
if I got $7 million to spend great.
But what if I've only got seven grand?
What if I've only got,
you know,
may maybe even half that.
It's like you might get pretty close,
quite frankly with where some of the price points are today,
that you could actually do a 5.1 with THX certified uh equipment and,
(16:05):
you know,
not have to break the bank.
And so you're getting that reference level of quality without having to,
you know,
pony up.
So let's say we want to design a uh 5.1 0.2.
I know this is something that Mark has talked about a ton is like,
get those last two at most speakers do it,
(16:27):
right?
You know,
even from an entry level perspective.
Um So what uh what would be some of the options that you would take us to from ce um on an entry level perspective?
You know,
I,
I think the bread and butter for what we do uh from an in wall perspective is probably our 31 60 rlthx in wall speakers at $2000 a piece.
(16:49):
I mean,
it is the equivalent of our traditional R seven tower speaker in the wall.
Um plenty of base output.
Absolutely fantastic dispersion.
Um They have a different look to them too than a traditional in wall speaker.
So whether you're using it with the grill or without the grill,
I think,
aesthetically,
it looks really,
really good in the room too.
On that five of those around a room,
(17:10):
uh I mean,
really even larger rooms,
it's gonna be able to pressurize it and give it the kind of performance that you're looking for.
I would say probably for our utmost then because we always kind of like to match the same series or 200 R RT HX uh Atmos speakers.
Again,
anything that I referenced as it relates to those in walls that the 200 Rrs do that too as well,
(17:31):
pair that off or round it off with a KF 92 or,
or force canceling dual nine inch subwoofer.
And frankly,
that's a heck of a system for,
for most anyone in the room.
I uh I like the fact that you went there because there's this idea that I think that we've kind of harped on in design,
which is to take a long term view,
right?
(17:52):
And so there's this concept of like,
you know,
why would I spend X on such and such?
And it's like,
well,
yeah,
if you buy a mechanically driven technology going back to our previous episode,
and I've got a 10 year,
15 year lifespan on that product,
then you know what,
like if you do the fast math,
that's 10 grand Right.
(18:12):
But over 10 years it's $1000 a year on a phenomenal system that you're gonna use every single weekend,
every single evening.
Right.
And it's like,
why wouldn't I just do a little more,
like,
I'm not going that much further down the rabbit trail to get to that correct experience level and,
and the beauty of audio systems,
(18:33):
unlike anything else that's high performance.
Right.
Uh,
is that you can go piece by piece,
you can start off with just a pair of speakers in the front and then add in a second channel or add a subwoofer and kind of grow into it as,
as time and finances allow you to do it,
right?
But I mean,
we don't have that benefit with a,
with a brand new mustang,
right?
It's not like we can buy the wheels first and then I'll get the transmission on the next bonus check,
(18:53):
right?
I can't enjoy it.
It's just sitting in the garage at that point.
Um And a lot of times I think clients will,
if they start off with just a pair of stereo speakers,
sometimes they don't grow or expand from there.
They realize,
hey,
I invested good money into this and frankly,
I'm satisfied with what I have here,
right?
So always,
always,
you know,
(19:13):
option is there to be able to kind of grow into the system versus throwing everything at it at one time.
So,
yeah.
Well,
and uh I love the fact that you said,
you know,
be satisfied with stereo because if you were to go to my living room right now you would see a pair of speakers.
Um,
and,
uh,
I also really like the fact that you called up the,
(19:33):
uh,
KF 92 because I have one sitting right over there and it sounds so good.
Uh,
it was the best sub quite honestly.
Um,
so I really,
really,
really happy with that piece.
Uh All right.
So we've talked a little bit about,
uh,
you know,
surround sound rooms and,
you know,
we sort of touched a little bit on the hi fi side of things.
(19:55):
Um,
we talked a little bit about blades.
Could you maybe take us,
um,
into a little bit of a sidestep?
Uh What would you pair with a pair,
a set of blades?
What are some of the things that you're seeing people do?
And I'm not necessarily trying to take,
uh,
(20:15):
a,
a focus off,
but rather to say,
like,
how do you like to see that system supported?
Big power.
Blades.
Blades love power.
Um,
you know,
there's some great brands out there that make some,
some,
some larger amplifiers.
Um,
you know,
we have a tendency of,
you know,
seeing blades a lot of times on Levinson,
we love the sound of Levinson with blades.
(20:37):
Um,
we've seen it obviously with Macintosh too as well.
Um,
on blades,
uh,
paradigm is what we use.
Um,
at our facilities in Jersey on,
on blades and it sounds really good too,
but that's one spot that you don't wanna kind of chintz out with blade,
you wanna be able to give it the ample power that you need to really kind of get all those drivers moving and get the air moving within that,
(20:57):
that space there.
Um,
blades are a bit of a Swiss army knife.
They're not so specific in the way that they're kind of designed and how they sound that,
that they really sound good in any room,
right?
So obviously things like acoustic treatments and things like that are gonna come into play to be able to kind of help out the sound quality of the blade.
But the key for blades is,
is ample power.
(21:18):
And that's part of the reason why I asked is because it's like we have this design conversation a couple of years ago.
Uh,
me and another guy that we work with and it was one of those things where we said,
if you spend double on power,
what you do on your speakers,
you know,
you've kind of hit a cut off.
And so at a $30,000 set of speakers,
(21:40):
right?
Give or take a few 1000 bucks.
You're saying I could spend up to 50 grand and power in order to correctly drive those things.
And that seems,
I think really counterintuitive and that's why I'm trying to bring up the point like you need to think about your whole system and how you're going to design those components to work together,
to make a cohesive whole.
(22:01):
And that's part of the reason why you can get two speakers to do everything that you want them to do and have amazing quality.
Um So,
uh what else uh do you guys do?
Um from a design perspective,
you mentioned earlier uh meta material.
Um What was the big innovation behind Meta?
Because I'm gonna be honest,
(22:22):
I already liked your speakers and then I liked your speakers a lot more and I it was kind of in a surprising way,
we'll just say it that way.
Sure.
Well,
I mean,
the birth of meta material really kind of started with knowing that there is an innate problem that's in,
in all speakers,
right?
That a sound fires forward from the front of the driver as that driver comes back to rest or moves into the cabinet.
(22:44):
It's the movement of air which we all know sound at the end of the day is simply some movement of air,
that's how sound is created.
Well,
that resonance would happen within the cabinet itself,
right?
Which is not good overall.
And so there's been tons of different technologies whether it be wadding.
Um We used to use this kind of a tube system that went off the back of the tweeter to kind of help eliminate some of that back wave resonance that you got from that.
(23:06):
Um,
other manufacturers do things like tapering tubes and so forth and all of those have been relatively efficient up to this point to about 70% of eliminating that back wave resonance.
Um,
I,
I,
I've got to give Kudos to our current head of acoustic engineering,
which is Doctor Jack Ackley Brown,
a younger individual,
uh,
worked with K forever.
I think he was an intern as he was going through with the,
(23:27):
with the British call uni or what we call college.
Here.
There you go.
Uh Yeah,
he was an intern with ke and uh found this material which um the material itself has been used for,
for other things.
It's normally wrapped around,
things like uh commercial uh air conditioners,
generators,
things that not,
not to kind of quiet them down.
But he said,
hey,
what if I take this material and I put it on the back of the,
(23:49):
the unique driver and try to see how that helps eliminate,
you know,
some of the back way resonance coming off the tweeter.
Well,
long story short,
it was very efficient up to the tune of 99.8% efficient of eliminating that back weight resonance on it.
So when I talked to,
when I talked to,
uh I guess,
uh a layman in the audio world,
(24:09):
it's,
it's like having a perfectly acoustically treated room inside of the speaker is what it is.
That,
that's an awesome way to describe it well,
and it makes sense because the thing that was so surprising is that when I first heard the speakers,
I'm going,
man,
those things are really quiet and everybody goes,
(24:31):
why would you want a quiet speaker?
And it's like,
no,
no,
no,
no,
no,
it's not that the sound that's coming off,
the speaker is quiet.
It's that the noise that would have otherwise been there is now gone.
You know,
you make a great point because the first time I heard Meta,
uh,
I think I was with Parker,
one of my coworkers out of the Chicago area there.
(24:51):
And I'm like,
I don't know if I like this because I've never been used to it before.
And I'm like,
it's just,
it,
it just feels lacking of something and then it took me a while and just kind of listening to him and goes,
oh,
well,
that's not what you're supposed to hear.
Right.
That's gone now.
But I've been so used to hearing it for so many years.
Uh,
but now I absolutely love it.
(25:12):
I,
I tell people all the time that that quietness is good in the same sense of,
uh,
you know,
cold cabin in the middle of the woods next to a fireplace,
reading a book.
It's that kind of quiet,
it's intimate,
warm,
you know.
So it,
it,
it absolutely is.
And,
you know,
the principle goes beyond just cabinets and it goes into rooms like that's why I love that and we were just at um uh or I was just excuse me at uh at ge I know this is gonna sound really weird.
(25:41):
I was doing an appliance training,
believe it or not.
And they have an acoustic listen.
I know,
but they have an antico chamber and the reason I bring it up is because that chamber is if you've never been in one can be very uncomfortable because you're so used to hearing the the sound of the room,
the sound of the air conditioner,
(26:02):
air conditioner in the fridge and all these other things that just create that bed of white noise that when it's gone,
you're like,
oh,
this is very different.
This is,
it's cool,
but you do need to kind of get used to it the first time and then you start to realize how much better it is.
So,
and it still blows my mind when you sent me those pictures that an appliance manufacturer has an Anechoic chamber to test how loud their appliances are.
(26:31):
And that's,
that's incredible to me,
you know,
to that point.
So it's interesting,
I was uh I had an opportunity to kind of look through some CF history and look at Doctor Jack Ackley Brown and what he's done and he graduated from Southampton University.
And so I look at this prestigious University in England and you know,
acoustical engineering and you know,
who graduates from there and who,
who essentially hires people graduates from there.
(26:52):
And I'm looking through the list and CF obviously Cambridge audio.
That makes sense.
And then Dyson,
I'm like,
why is Dyson hiring musical engineers?
And then to your point,
it occurred to me it's like,
oh,
because you want to make the,
the vacuum as quiet as possible.
Right.
And it's just something that we don't think about often.
Well,
and,
and that's the thing I love about audio is that it's such a rabbit trail of a thing.
(27:14):
Like,
and I tell people,
like,
I've been playing the piano since I've been seven.
And so I've been doing things now like 30 years and I'm still nowhere close to the bottom.
Like there's guys out there that are like way over there that still do amazing work um and have done so for a really long time.
So you mentioned the history.
Um What is it uh about uh KF and kind of where you guys came from that really allowed you to be so successful because like,
(27:43):
if I look at some of the things on your resume,
like there's some amazing,
amazing achievements that you guys have.
I,
I think from the get go with Raymond Cook,
the founder of our company back in 1961 is that when he was making speakers,
his goal was to make something that sounds like flesh and blood and not nuts and bolts to really try to,
(28:05):
to mimic the human voice or natural instrumentation,
all of that,
right.
There's some great speakers out there that are 100% necessary for,
for the use that they were used for,
right?
If you're mastering or,
or mixing and you need all of that kind of small detail and information that's important to have a speaker that's able to go ahead and depict that.
But for us,
for CF it's always been about real life,
(28:28):
right?
We understand the importance of when listening to music or listening to a movie that the whole goal of it is to frankly escape to step away from whatever you're doing at that moment,
not worrying about the mortgage or the leak in the garage or the kids acting up in school to be transposed to someplace different,
right?
To be at that first concert when you were 16,
(28:48):
you know,
or,
or to be on the battlefield with Black Panther and Wakanda fighting against,
you know,
Thanos,
right?
To,
to just kind of disconnect from the world.
So that's always been the goal.
It's not to be necessarily the most informative,
but to necessarily to try to be the most lifelike overall.
Uh I love the fact that you said it that way and it's kind of unfair even to your own brand.
(29:10):
And I'm gonna throw you under the bus because you guys have all the detail too,
like all of the things that you would need to mix.
Uh It's all there.
I mean,
I had a conversation with a guy who owns the recording studio here in town and uh he was going back and forth between another manufacturer who I won't mention and a set of LS 50 wireless.
(29:31):
And quite honestly,
we ended up doing a set of those for his near field monitors because he was like,
they give me everything I need in order to make accurate decisions,
like he had to get used to them a little bit.
They weren't the same that he had before.
But like those are perfect studio on it 100%.
And I used them myself for many years.
I had a set of the nocturnes which we can't see,
(29:54):
but maybe I'll bring them out.
Oh,
my goodness,
they're so good.
So good.
Uh We'll move the camera to them here in just a second.
Yeah.
And,
and I know I mentioned it in my,
uh in previous episodes,
but my favorite pair of speakers to listen to music on are my LS 50 Meadows.
Like they are that you,
(30:16):
you,
you brought it up earlier,
like just the sound of the speaker itself being so quiet.
I live in a town home so I can't,
you know,
blast those speakers.
I can turn it into a comfortable volume and really get all the detail that I want.
Um So it's just for me,
I,
I don't want to listen to any other speakers when listening to music.
(30:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well,
you've given us some phenomenal history and some great insight on some of the technology.
Um You mentioned something that I kind of want to go back to because it's something I think a lot of people do,
but it gets glossed over because so many people do it.
Um which is that a lot of the reference series,
(30:57):
those blades,
those are made by hand.
And I saw a documentary on uh on the manufacturing process and I saw something amazing,
which is the same guy who makes the left also makes the right.
And so uh and people don't really know this,
(31:17):
but this is a pair of chef's microphones and that's the matched set.
And the serial number is like right there.
And I bring it up to say like it's one of those things that you don't realize that people do.
And so talk to me about like why that's so important uh in a manufacturing process.
Well,
I think the first thing that comes to mind is pride and craftsmanship,
(31:38):
right?
That individual and it at one point we only had two,
but,
you know,
we've just continued to grow and grow and grow.
That that's actually expanded out.
I think almost to six people now who by the way have to go through a nine month training to be a qualified or certified person to be able to hand build things like blades and reference.
So,
um but it's just the pride,
I mean,
uh pride of building,
(31:59):
right?
The handcrafting of that product,
every,
every blade of reference that you receive,
you'll literally get what we call a birth certificate within it that shows you who made it right?
And funny enough,
one of the guys is Mark and another one is named Dave,
right?
Who knew that?
But what's even more interesting is that uh as Meta came out,
there was a lot of retail stores that had prior versions of the blade that we in the field had to go out and,
(32:20):
and kind of upgrade to the new Meta.
I could take off a driver and look at the inside of a blade and go.
Yep.
That's mark.
There's little nuances and tendencies to how they do things,
whether it be,
you know,
length of cables or things like that inside of it.
But,
um,
yeah,
it,
it's,
it's awesome.
Right.
There's only a handful of guys and that,
you know,
are making your product for you.
(32:40):
And for when you talk about something like a blade which us retails 35,000 for the pair,
there's a certain sense of uh exclusivity knowing that you have one individual master craftsman in the UK,
making that product for you so well.
And it makes perfect sense.
I mean,
we talked about uh technology principles on a previous episode and that principle of specialization,
(33:04):
the idea that I only want one guy to do this one thing,
the absolute best way that he can like,
and to think,
like,
nine months after you get hired in at a company and I'm sure that they probably have to work for the company for an extended period of time before you even go to school before you're allowed to even hit the floor to make something like.
(33:25):
That's just absolutely wild to me.
Absolutely wild.
It's like you guys need your own school.
Yeah,
I do it.
That'd be fun.
Yeah.
All right.
Well,
uh,
we've talked quite a bit about,
uh CF and so I want to kind of shift directions uh into the video game world.
(33:46):
All right.
So the reason for this is that a lot of people love music,
a lot of people love uh movies,
but video games is one of those things.
I think a lot of folks in our generation quite honestly enjoy that some of the older generation didn't grow up with and some play,
but not everybody.
And,
uh I think it's quite honestly become a bigger thing now than it has ever been and it continues to grow.
(34:10):
Um And so I know you're an avid gamer.
I am.
Could you tell me a little bit about how you enjoy games?
That's a little bit different than,
uh,
maybe the traditional Call of Duties and sure.
Uh,
so I'm almost near 40 right born in the eighties kid of the nineties.
And what I collect for is specifically retro video games,
(34:32):
Sega Genesis.
Being the one thing that I'm collecting for,
uh,
right now,
but I'm a nostalgia gamer.
I like the,
you know,
the old school classics with the cartridge that you put into the system.
I've got a 32 inch Sony tube TV at home and,
and,
uh,
that's how I like to game.
And it's interesting.
Right.
I was thinking about this on the drive here.
We talked about kind of the escapism for audio and why audio is so important.
(34:55):
Why people invest money in the audio video games has the same tie in,
right?
For me,
it's it's the opportunity to kind of go back to an earlier time where I'm not worried about which schools the baby gonna go to or the mortgage payment coming up,
I can think back to the times where my hardest decisions and lives were,
what movie should I rent a Blockbuster?
And what kind of what topics do I want on my pizza?
(35:15):
Right?
And so,
so that for me is,
is another way to kind of disconnect from the world today in,
in retro video games and how really it,
it aligns just the same with audio,
right?
I'm glad you took it that direction,
man,
because that's,
that's the whole point.
If I play Call of Duty,
if I play Sega Genesis,
(35:36):
if I play whatever it is,
I want my experience to be my experience,
it's like the correct expression of selfishness.
If I can say it that day.
That's a perfect description.
Like there's no reason to not go ahead and just enjoy that moment because that's,
excuse me,
that's why you've worked for the whole week.
That's why you've done all those things is to enjoy that,
(35:57):
those,
those couple of hours uh,
where you can kind of have your space and do your thing.
Um That's really,
really awesome.
So,
any,
uh,
any recent finds that were especially cool.
Oh,
gosh.
Well,
I've gone down the rabbit hole of really trying to complete the full North American set of Sega Genesis,
which for those of you who don't know,
there's over 800 plus games that got released in the US for,
(36:20):
for Sega Genesis.
Um,
I'm at,
I think about 340 games total right now.
Um,
I get pickups almost every week.
Honestly,
it's hard to kind of keep track.
It's relatively well curated within the room.
I have a whole dedicated room for it.
You know what's funny is as trying to collect the entire set?
(36:42):
I still keep going back to the same staples that I played as a child.
Your sonic,
the hedgehogs,
your streets of rage,
your Shano,
those kind of things.
Um,
I think more so collecting for the whole set is to watch somebody's reaction when they walk into the room and go,
you ever see this before?
And they go,
oh my gosh.
I haven't thought about this in 20 years.
I played this,
(37:02):
I played this and again to be full circle as it relates to audio,
right?
It's kind of the same thing that we do for,
for speakers too,
right?
If,
if you have somebody in your home who's never experienced really high fi audio,
what's the first thing that you do is you go,
oh,
you,
you have to sit,
sit,
sit,
you have to listen to this,
right?
It's the same thing in that gaming room.
It's just introducing somebody and giving them being the first one that provides them that experience that they haven't had before.
(37:26):
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
My brother,
my brother,
uh,
he's,
you know,
just kind of dabbling into this industry a little bit and,
uh,
every time he comes over to the house now I will play him a demo just so he can know like,
hey,
this is,
this is the sound that you can get.
And honestly I ended up letting him borrow a set of speakers because I have too many speakers and he now has a movie night that he has with another friend that,
(37:55):
uh,
if he didn't have those speakers that movie night would not be movie night.
Like,
that's what he told me.
He's like,
it's completely changed just how I spend my Saturday nights watching these movies.
So,
um,
you know,
as far as the gaming aspect goes,
I'm right there with you.
Like,
I,
I do play a lot of the newer stuff.
You know,
I've got a lot of friends all over the US and online gaming has been great for being able to hang out with those folks on a regular basis,
(38:21):
even though when I can't,
I can't physically see them.
But,
um,
for me,
uh the nostalgia is there.
My grandmother actually bought me,
my first Super Nintendo and had an nes.
She got an Nes for herself from my grandfather for Christmas.
I actually just watched the,
the tape a few weeks ago visiting home.
(38:42):
Um,
and I didn't know that she bought it for herself.
I thought that it was ours or she bought it for us.
She bought it for her.
So my brother and I make it a point anytime that my family is in town that we'll play through Super Mario three because,
because that was what my,
we used to play with my grandmother.
Like,
and she would,
she was,
she was the player that would,
you know,
you're running along and she would lift the controller to jump over the.
(39:05):
So,
uh,
yeah,
I mean,
it's,
it's definitely there for me too.
Um,
I don't have quite the collection.
You do but,
uh,
you don't want it.
It,
it's very tight.
My physical media is getting,
getting to me at this point and I don't know where I would put any type of video game cartridges on top of what I already have.
So.
(39:25):
Well,
and I think,
you know,
you talk about the collection aspect of it.
And it's one of those things where I've seen it now for many,
many years,
you go to somebody's house and they say,
you know,
I've got a listening room or I've got a dedicated space and of course,
what do you see on the wall is a huge vinyl collection or huge CD collection.
(39:46):
And I remember hearing the conversation essentially,
like if you've spent 30 or $40,000 on a collection,
right?
Of music,
why would you not invest the same amount of money into the playback system?
100% like it?
And we don't think about dollars and cents always the same way.
(40:09):
A lot of times it's like this concept of gear versus like this versus that.
And,
you know,
do I do this or do I do?
And I get that and,
you know,
is it worth the money and all this?
But at the same time it's kind of like,
yeah,
but you're talking about a technology that has such a long lifespan that you're going back to it saying maybe we should really start juxtaposing what we're doing with the investment,
(40:34):
what that experience is worth.
You know,
if you want to go travel the world,
you know,
you want to go to Europe,
I mean,
what is that?
8 10 $15,000 right?
And you're there for a week,
let's just say,
and then you're done,
you got some pictures and,
and you come home and there's value there.
But why wouldn't I also want to be able to hear every musician from that country for the next 10 years whenever I want?
(41:00):
Correct?
You know,
it's interesting to your point.
I look at that,
that thought process that relates to the gaming world and there's two different kind of camps,
so to speak.
Right.
So there's people who spend a lot of money on really high tech o led displays.
There's clone systems that they make now that are,
you know,
506 $100 that do incredible things with upscaling and things of that nature.
(41:21):
And so there is that modern gamer and then on the opposite,
you know,
who's looking for performance visually,
so to speak.
And then there's the nostalgic guy like me who's happy to have,
you know,
a 4 80 I seven,
you know,
4 80 I two TV,
and the original console,
it just depends on what you're going for.
But yes,
II,
100% agree.
And what's interesting is that across both sectors,
(41:42):
so to speak.
At least I noticed from the gaming community there isn't a ton of money being spent on audio with the exception of headphones,
gaming headsets today,
I think A DS now has a pair of gaming headphones out.
There are $1500 for the pair that as I understand are doing pretty well.
Um But it's quite often when I'm watching youtube videos or Twitch Streamers or things of that nature.
(42:03):
I don't see a lot of near field systems in these videos and it's,
it's,
I think it's an opportunity for the industry altogether is to kind of reach out to these gamers and go,
hey,
yes,
your turtle beaches,
your A DS,
whatever headphones you're wearing are awesome.
But have you ever heard or played Call of Duty on a pair of high quality capable bookshelf speakers?
Right.
And so I think it's an opportunity for,
for really frankly all of us to introduce them and,
(42:24):
and I'm not going to boast,
but I literally had that conversation with one of my oldest clients.
I've known this guy for better part of nine years and we've got a great surround sound system.
We've already done.
We've got a great bedroom system.
He's building a gaming rig and we're having that conversation like,
so what do I do for sound because I want something good and,
(42:46):
you know,
where we ended up is LSX Two,
to be honest,
like,
and we're looking at the price points and we talked about this,
we're going but to get a smooth,
awesome clean sound,
something that can bring me into that experience.
You know,
if I want to pair it with a sub,
I can to get some of that low end rumble,
(43:07):
but he's not going to do that because he's in a smaller space very similar to you mark where it's like,
yeah,
I don't really have the ability to blast this.
I don't need volume,
but I do need detail,
right?
And that's what those are gonna are gonna do.
Um And I mean,
literally yesterday that was a conversation that,
yeah,
that was what I first used.
Um,
(43:27):
before I got the Me the 50 Meadows is I had LSX twos uh for gaming when I'm not using headphones and chatting when I'm doing a single player experience.
Like I really wanted to get that detail.
I mean,
they're sitting right in front of me on the desk,
but I could hear as if I had a full surround sound system right in front of me.
So it was,
it was an awesome experience.
(43:48):
It's interesting how,
you know,
a lot of gamers just almost assume there's nothing else other than headphones when I'm gaming,
I wear headphones or I listen to the terrible TV speakers.
So then what do I do?
I just listen to headphones.
It's,
it's,
it's like an aha moment where you're like,
well,
you can get speakers for that and they're like,
what,
how,
how does that work?
(44:08):
You know,
if you don't want to wear your headphones and still hear,
you know,
the sniper creeping around the corner and call of duty,
you have that detail and capability with a,
with a capable pair of speakers.
So for sure.
Well,
uh,
so I know you guys had made some headphones in the past.
Do you still currently make,
uh any headphones.
We do,
uh,
we make M threes or M sevens.
(44:29):
We have a handful of headphones.
It's,
they're good.
They're certainly good.
Um,
the headphone market is so saturated,
you know,
as an audio brand.
Obviously,
we,
we try to do our best and play ball,
so to speak,
but there is some monster companies out there that do headphones.
So though it isn't necessarily the biggest focus for us.
We do have a few offerings on them.
(44:50):
Well,
I've got a set of uh of those uh true wires ones.
And quite honestly,
that's what I listen to uh when I'm falling asleep.
So it's uh they are uh to your point,
I'm sure there's,
there might be some other companies to consider,
but they're not slouches again.
(45:10):
Caps engineering,
right?
Anything that we do,
we,
we make it with intent for it to be really,
really good for the price point and have very accurate sound.
It's just sometimes we can't,
you know,
take all the engineering guys away from whatever projects they're working on to do headphones because we are first and foremost speaker company first.
So,
yeah,
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well,
uh why don't we do a segment?
(45:31):
All right,
we're gonna do a segment.
I like segments and uh we've been talking on the uh show quite a bit recently about demo tracks.
Uh And I just,
I can't pass up this opportunity to ask uh from a guy who's done this for a very,
very long time.
Um,
and has probably some different tracks than what I like and different than what Mark likes.
(45:52):
Um,
so what are a couple of,
uh,
demo tracks that you think we should be listening to?
Oh,
there's so many good ones.
Um,
before I give a few tracks,
can I give a word of advice for those who are out there doing demos?
Absolutely.
Uh,
young in my career,
uh,
selling hi Fi,
you know,
uh I used to have a go to demo track,
(46:13):
right.
The same song that I would use on any speaker,
regardless of what I'm playing,
whether it was a satellite Bookshelf Tower,
whether it was something ultra luxury and expensive,
it was the same track I played over and over again.
That thought process is incorrect.
Right.
And I'll tell you why,
how do you differentiate the capability of a $35,000 pair of speakers versus a $350 pair of speakers?
(46:35):
If ultimately both of those can kind of do the same track or your go to track relatively well.
Right.
You have to throw things out of it that's really gonna show not only the capability of the more expensive item but also how the lesser expensive item is just not able to do it.
So,
um,
you should have a large repertoire of demos um,
across all genres,
(46:56):
across all products that you sell.
Right.
The,
whether you're selling a ce or a different brand.
There should be certain tracks that you play for XYZ product for CE,
right?
It should be that specific.
So,
uh,
the demos I'm gonna play and give you right now that I've been playing recently.
Um,
work well on certain products that we make and other ones,
uh,
don't,
so,
but just things that I generally like to play right now,
(47:17):
um,
there's an Austin band by the name of Polya.
Um If I'm not sure if either one of you have heard of them yet.
Um I have not.
Uh they,
there's no lyrics at all.
There's no singing and it is just prolific guitar playing and kind of a metal meets EDM style,
but very well recorded.
Uh And most of the songs are like,
(47:38):
uh going through a journey,
like reading a graphic novel of sorts.
And so there's a track from them called Playing God.
That is absolutely fantastic that I like to do.
Um Another artist that I like to play a lot right now is a Polish guitarist by the name of Marson.
If you ever listen,
I love Marson.
I mean,
these,
I say kids,
can,
I say kids,
I'm almost 40.
(47:59):
I could say kids,
these kids coming up with these guitars,
whether it's just,
you know,
more opportunity to just sit in a quiet room and play it through all the things that have happened,
you know,
throughout the past couple of years.
But they are,
they are skilled like I haven't seen before and Martin is one of them.
He's in his twenties.
Um He uses the entire body of this acoustic guitar for all the progressive elements of what he plays.
(48:21):
I mean,
whether it's tapping,
knocking,
I mean,
there's a,
there's a track from him,
uh which is a cover of Zeppelin's Cashmere that he,
that is fantastic.
But during the song,
I can't even imagine being able to do this.
He literally reaches up onto the tuning pegs de tunes a notice he's playing it and puts it right back into the tune and continue playing it.
It's like he's got more capability in his pinky finger playing the guitar with him where I could,
(48:43):
I could,
I don't think I'd ever get there.
Um More on the kind of R and B and bluesy side.
Um PJ Morton is another artist that I'm listening to.
Um he just originally did a live studio album.
Um He's got a great track with uh with a female artist who I actually saw here in Nashville for the first time at Bridgestone Arena.
Her name is Ye.
(49:03):
Um But they do a cover of How Deep is Your Love,
which is great.
Oh,
it's such a,
it's such a chill kind of vibe to it.
Wonderfully recorded listening to a lot of that at the moment too.
So if I had to give one more kind of in that same vein,
Leon Bridges,
if you haven't listened to him.
(49:23):
Uh,
uh,
another newer,
younger artist who's got that kind of older soul vibe of Otis Redding and Sam Cook.
So,
you know,
call me old fashioned.
But these new artists coming out that sound like something nostalgic and something of the past is kind of what I'm,
I'm leaning towards.
So lots of good stuff out there right now.
That is awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
(49:43):
Well,
uh,
thank you very much for sharing and uh Dave,
thank you so much for being with us and uh being our very first guest on our very first video podcast.
Um I just,
we're so honored to have you with us and uh it's been an absolute joy and an absolute pleasure.
So,
thank you,
sir.
It's been my pleasure.
You've seen what you guys have done so far and where this has come to um just happy to be here.
(50:08):
So,
uh I'd like to just say thank you to everybody who uh has been watching and listening.
Um Please like,
comment and subscribe,
share with your friends.
Um If uh you guys wanna hear us,
talk about something specific or if you have questions,
please reach out to us at the Sound of design dot com.
Um And uh we will see you guys on the next episode.
(50:30):
Thank you guys.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well,
welcome to the Sound of Design with Mark and Dan and Dave.
Hey,
we are obviously very excited uh to have you guys with us.
This is our very first uh video podcast.
Uh and we have with us David Tavares from CF.
Thank you very much for being with us.
My pleasure,
gentlemen.
And congratulations to both of you.
(00:45):
Uh I've been listening and what you guys are doing with this podcast is absolutely awesome and catching a lot of attention in the industry.
So kudos to you too,
thank you very much.
Thank you.
Uh So,
uh I figure you work for a speaker brand.
So it may be a good idea for us to talk a little bit about speakers today.
(01:05):
Uh And uh some of the things I was hoping that we would be able to hit is uh just a little bit of an overview on speakers.
So maybe we'd start with like some of the different categories,
some of the different options that people have uh when they're thinking about doing speakers.
And then I also was hoping that we could kind of highlight some of the things that ce does.
That's so unique because quite honestly,
(01:27):
I love ce and I'm not supposed to say that and it's not that I don't like the other brands.
Um But uh you know,
when I first started in the industry,
I was listening to a lot of hi fi speakers and I have a pro audio background.
So my view and my expectation of what a speaker should be.
Uh I mean,
I had a very,
very,
very high threshold and Mark will remember,
(01:49):
I do remember before we,
uh we really got into uh some of the things that uh our location had sold,
we were kind of limited in our assortment.
And I'm gonna be honest,
I walk into that room and they're like,
you should listen to these great speakers and I'm going,
yeah.
So,
(02:10):
yeah.
And even before we were,
we,
we were a chef dealer,
like we had some great options available to us and there was no pleasing Dan.
It was just,
yeah,
it's,
they're,
they're,
they're OK,
they're fine.
So my snootiness is,
is gonna kind of come to the surface.
And uh I want to tell you everybody that uh when we picked up KF um I was just through the moon because finally I had speakers that I could sell.
(02:36):
That sounded like,
well,
I wanted them to sound like,
um,
so I'm actually gonna kick it over to Mark real quick.
Could you start maybe with telling us a little bit about uh the speaker categories,
you know,
like,
what are the options when you're thinking about putting a speaker in a space,
be it for stereo or for surround sound?
(02:57):
Um And maybe let's,
you know,
talk a little bit about that.
Yeah.
So,
I mean,
there's a millions of different options out there and a lot of times when,
uh,
a client will walk into our space,
it can seem a little overwhelming.
So I always use that,
that easy question of like,
hey,
how do you want your sound to look?
(03:18):
Um And,
you know,
the first time I heard that it was kind of like unlocking that,
you know,
or,
or breaking the fourth wall,
so to speak in my brain,
like,
oh my gosh,
like,
why,
why am I worried about what it's gonna sound like if they don't like how it looks?
Right?
So,
being able to talk about,
you know,
do you want a speaker that's gonna disappear into the space?
(03:40):
Do you want something that's kind of medium size or large?
Um,
that was huge for us or for,
for me in particular?
Um,
so you have with that,
you have an in wall speaker which,
you know,
essentially disappears into the space.
You have a medium size like a bookshelf speaker and then you have a large speaker,
(04:00):
floor standing speaker.
Um,
and those are typically the,
the three options that you see or that we'll offer in most cases.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Um,
so,
uh,
Dave,
when you guys start approaching,
let's say a tower speaker.
Um,
how do you guys at ce really think through that process?
(04:22):
Do you have like a specific design intent?
Do you have kind of a purpose or a philosophy that you guys try and adhere to or is it,
you know,
throw it at the wall and see what sticks or?
Well,
what's interesting about CF and I've learned now being there for four years that a lot of the product that we make is,
is truly a trickle down technology from some of our flagship product and blades and reference and things like that a lot of times.
(04:46):
So now,
you know,
maybe we'll get into a little bit more conversation about it,
but specifically the meta material,
right?
Uh first came out in,
in reference and then blades and,
and now is over into our series.
We're not gonna limit that core piece of technology that we use in some of our upper upper echelon product and not provided to people in a,
in a value price point thing.
So,
I it all starts with new material going into our flagship product and ultimately trickling down to other things throughout the line.
(05:12):
So,
uh just to translate what you put in the really,
really,
really nice stuff is what you put in the very accessible stuff.
Yes,
exactly.
Right.
Yes.
All right.
Awesome.
Well,
uh,
so in the tower speaker world,
um what are some of the,
the lines that you guys carry and uh what are some of the things I know we've kind of mentioned blades?
(05:37):
I know we've,
you know,
mentioned reference series.
Uh What was the difference between those two?
Like I,
we talked about how do you want your sound to look?
They have a very different aesthetic,
100% right.
So what was the,
the thought process behind uh those two lines?
Well,
well,
the genesis of Blade was really simply this thought,
(05:59):
right?
If we can take,
which is our core technology and what we use in 99% of the product that we make,
which is unique.
If we could take that to the furthest extent,
what would that product look like?
And in Blade that is,
you know,
having the,
the unique in the acoustic center of the two sets of Wolfers that we use with that.
And it was just meant to be a concept.
It was shown at a,
at a uh German audio show many,
(06:21):
many,
many years ago and just like any of any of these products that get shown off and say,
hey,
this is just a conceptual idea.
Something that we think is pretty cool.
You know,
we have no plans of manufacturing it all of a sudden,
you know,
took off like wildfire,
people wanted to buy it.
And so,
you know,
the engineers had to go back and go,
ok,
how do we make this for,
for the masses and it's been a highly successful speaker for us.
(06:42):
That's awesome.
That's awesome.
So,
the Uni Q uh could you maybe talk us a little bit about what does that do for a speaker design in a space?
What's,
what's kind of the,
the,
the purpose behind that?
Because it's a coaxial design,
right?
So your,
your Tweeter is inside the midrange.
(07:03):
Um But you guys do some really weird things with that tweeter and weird in a good way.
Yeah.
So the whole thought process behind it,
right?
Versus using a traditional tweeter on top or Diop Polio type design as it relates to that is that there's a single apparent source of where sound is firing from,
right?
So all of our engineers look back and they think of things like uh for example,
(07:23):
like the human voice,
right?
There's a single point of space where all sound,
regardless of whether it's high frequencies,
mid frequencies,
low frequencies,
hopefully,
I've got a little bit more of low frequencies here,
but it's all coming from a single apparent,
you know,
space and point,
right?
Same thing with you look at an acoustic guitar,
right?
You look at the body or what's called,
I think it's actually called the sound hole of an acoustic guitar,
right?
(07:43):
That's typically where that sound is firing.
But and so what we try to do in any of our designs is have that,
you know,
that point in space where all the sound is firing from.
So it's not easy to do.
There's a lot of technology that comes into play and,
and frankly,
some of the early renditions of the uni U were good,
but they weren't great if you don't mind me asking,
is that like a two or three years cycle?
(08:05):
Is that like a five year cycle or it's just varied throughout the year,
it's just varied.
I think once a new product is introduced or for example,
a new tech that's introduced to the product,
I think it's an opportunity for engineers to go fresh again.
Hey,
let's see what we can prove.
We know that this was an issue with UNI Q in the past with the addition of this new technology.
Can I tweak it and make it better?
KFF frankly doesn't ever rest on its Laurels,
(08:27):
right?
You know,
I hear a lot of time in the industry.
Uh what's new with the new series?
Oh,
we've,
we've changed the crossover.
Oh,
cool,
cool.
Alright.
So do we like,
you know,
but um but no,
they,
they go really kind of ground up and try to figure out how they can make slight improvements on really everything that they're doing with the new design.
Awesome.
(08:47):
Yeah.
Well,
so I think we should kind of call out let's go to uh the home environment because a lot of what we do really is uh in that residential space.
We do some pro audio.
Um but there's a lot more high end residential.
And so when we kind of focus on uh what that looks like,
let's say that I want to put together a theater.
(09:08):
Um and I do want my speakers to kind of disappear a little bit.
I want to have a better aesthetic uh driven theater.
Um What series of ce speakers would you take me to my gosh,
I mean,
if at all possible,
I take it to our reference series product,
right?
I think we're one of the few brands out there that really truly offer a kind of a high performance,
(09:31):
high fi in wall or in ceiling solution.
Um You know,
there,
there isn't,
there's kind of an industry standing under its industry understanding if you will that once you go to an in wall or in ceiling solution,
that performance is lost just by the nature of the product that's there.
Uh We don't accept that.
Um,
you know,
our reference product that we make is hand built by the same gentleman who build things like blades and reference in the UK and they're arguably 95 98% of what a traditional box speaker sounds like.
(09:59):
So if we're trying to get a box type performance out of an end wall speaker,
it would be 100% reference series.
I'm glad you took us that direction and I've had a chance to listen to him when you're in a space that is dedicated and what I mean by that is you've got a screen or a,
a dedicated,
(10:19):
uh,
uh,
video,
uh,
wall or something along those lines.
And the whole purpose of that space is really just,
I want to watch movies.
I want to play games.
I want to watch sports and I want the best I can possibly get.
Um,
it,
it's,
it's amazing how the sound kind of disperses in a wide and even way.
(10:42):
And that's probably the thing that I really like about ce more than anything else is that,
that dispersion like is so different than everything else that everybody else seems to do.
Uh And I have this,
this,
this conversation with folks all the time.
It's like,
you know,
I don't want to redesign a room if I can avoid it.
(11:04):
Right.
I have to work with the space that I've got.
So how do I make sure that my uh speaker is going to sound the way that I want it to,
even if I have to be,
what,
six inches that way or a foot that way or something like so.
And if you recall,
like,
uh I have that project uh pretty close to our location that he has the 51 60 thxs and there are five of them and that was the third rendition of that room.
(11:32):
He had another manufacturer speakers in there prior both mid tier and high tier series from another manufacturer.
And the sound would just get lost because he has a big open wall on one side and it would just get lost into the rest of the house and he wanted something that was going to give him a little bit more of that directed experience.
(11:55):
And he,
uh,
I mean,
he loves them.
I,
if he,
he,
today,
if I told him,
hey,
we'll let you exchange anything to upgrade to something better.
He would exchange everything.
But those speakers.
Yeah,
on that note too,
what's interesting to me is,
you know,
you talked about dispersion is I always think of,
you know,
for a theater system,
(12:15):
I always think of the Adobe Atmos channels,
right?
And having that wide dispersion when you're talking about 2 to 4 to 6 channels that you're using for,
for Dolby Atmos.
Uh I I it's not often that I see people.
Uh you know,
I do see it happen.
I'd obviously like to see it more,
but for me,
it feels like regardless of what you chose for your kind of linear soundstage that Kev is the best option for Dol Me Amos if you're trying to get dispersion and get better coverage on multiple areas of seating there.
(12:40):
I mean,
even to the point Dolby laboratories today uses caffin ceiling product for their,
for their amost.
Absolutely.
Yeah,
it's kind of,
it's kind of known to be the go to option because of what you mentioned the dispersion characteristic of it so well.
And I think it makes sense because you have this problem,
which is you're trying to fill up space in a wide way and you've only got a single source to do that and every manufacturer has to solve this,
(13:09):
you know,
problem.
And so it's like to be able to do that in such a clean and such in an accurate way is one of those things that is so hard to do.
Um,
but without spending ungodly amounts of money,
it's like,
uh,
yeah,
if I had a $7 million budget,
(13:30):
we can do whatever you want.
It's like,
well,
of course,
all uh all right.
So,
uh one of the things I love about,
uh what you guys do in the theater space is that you have made sure that not only is Dolby using those,
but you guys are also THX Certified.
So tell me a little bit about why THX and what was kind of the thought process there.
(13:52):
Um And,
uh,
Mark,
could you just tell me what is THX Stand for?
Oh,
you're gonna throw me out,
you're gonna throw that out there to me.
Uh It stands for,
I have no idea off the top of my head.
Tom Holman experience.
Hey,
look at that.
You guys are way better at this job than I am.
So I know the sound it makes,
(14:15):
I love that.
I watched Star Wars.
It's like those videos.
You see what sound?
Do all men love the THX sound.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So good.
So why we chose THX,
uh,
frankly it's,
it's,
it's,
it's,
it's a hard test.
Right.
It's a gauntlet of a test that you have to go through as a manufacturer to be able to pass and reach certain heights of THX certification.
(14:38):
Um,
there's other ones out there but I don't know if they're as stringent,
so to speak as,
as,
as THX is.
And so it's just kind of a,
uh it's a way to solidify the performance of what we're doing and what we're making is getting that THX certification done.
And from a perspective of,
I'm not sure if you should,
I'm not aware of this.
It's,
it's,
it's not cheap to get something THX certified and if you fail,
(15:00):
it's not like,
hey,
you get three tries and you get to go again afterwards,
you get one shot.
And if you don't pass that THX certification,
it's,
it's,
it's the whole process over again.
It's the same,
you know,
whole another investment that you have to make into it.
But,
um,
I,
I would like to think from an engineering standpoint,
you know,
that the folks over at the UK are engineering these products.
(15:22):
When they know that A THX certification is coming down the line for the product.
There's a little bit more thought and detail,
poignant planning that goes into a product,
uh just to make sure that it passed THX certification.
The first time goes through so well.
And I like the fact too that you have THX certified speakers at accessible price points.
(15:42):
And that to me because like,
you know,
we made the joke.
Yeah,
if I got $7 million to spend great.
But what if I've only got seven grand?
What if I've only got,
you know,
may maybe even half that.
It's like you might get pretty close,
quite frankly with where some of the price points are today,
that you could actually do a 5.1 with THX certified uh equipment and,
(16:05):
you know,
not have to break the bank.
And so you're getting that reference level of quality without having to,
you know,
pony up.
So let's say we want to design a uh 5.1 0.2.
I know this is something that Mark has talked about a ton is like,
get those last two at most speakers do it,
(16:27):
right?
You know,
even from an entry level perspective.
Um So what uh what would be some of the options that you would take us to from ce um on an entry level perspective?
You know,
I,
I think the bread and butter for what we do uh from an in wall perspective is probably our 31 60 rlthx in wall speakers at $2000 a piece.
(16:49):
I mean,
it is the equivalent of our traditional R seven tower speaker in the wall.
Um plenty of base output.
Absolutely fantastic dispersion.
Um They have a different look to them too than a traditional in wall speaker.
So whether you're using it with the grill or without the grill,
I think,
aesthetically,
it looks really,
really good in the room too.
On that five of those around a room,
(17:10):
uh I mean,
really even larger rooms,
it's gonna be able to pressurize it and give it the kind of performance that you're looking for.
I would say probably for our utmost then because we always kind of like to match the same series or 200 R RT HX uh Atmos speakers.
Again,
anything that I referenced as it relates to those in walls that the 200 Rrs do that too as well,
(17:31):
pair that off or round it off with a KF 92 or,
or force canceling dual nine inch subwoofer.
And frankly,
that's a heck of a system for,
for most anyone in the room.
I uh I like the fact that you went there because there's this idea that I think that we've kind of harped on in design,
which is to take a long term view,
right?
(17:52):
And so there's this concept of like,
you know,
why would I spend X on such and such?
And it's like,
well,
yeah,
if you buy a mechanically driven technology going back to our previous episode,
and I've got a 10 year,
15 year lifespan on that product,
then you know what,
like if you do the fast math,
that's 10 grand Right.
(18:12):
But over 10 years it's $1000 a year on a phenomenal system that you're gonna use every single weekend,
every single evening.
Right.
And it's like,
why wouldn't I just do a little more,
like,
I'm not going that much further down the rabbit trail to get to that correct experience level and,
and the beauty of audio systems,
(18:33):
unlike anything else that's high performance.
Right.
Uh,
is that you can go piece by piece,
you can start off with just a pair of speakers in the front and then add in a second channel or add a subwoofer and kind of grow into it as,
as time and finances allow you to do it,
right?
But I mean,
we don't have that benefit with a,
with a brand new mustang,
right?
It's not like we can buy the wheels first and then I'll get the transmission on the next bonus check,
(18:53):
right?
I can't enjoy it.
It's just sitting in the garage at that point.
Um And a lot of times I think clients will,
if they start off with just a pair of stereo speakers,
sometimes they don't grow or expand from there.
They realize,
hey,
I invested good money into this and frankly,
I'm satisfied with what I have here,
right?
So always,
always,
you know,
(19:13):
option is there to be able to kind of grow into the system versus throwing everything at it at one time.
So,
yeah.
Well,
and uh I love the fact that you said,
you know,
be satisfied with stereo because if you were to go to my living room right now you would see a pair of speakers.
Um,
and,
uh,
I also really like the fact that you called up the,
(19:33):
uh,
KF 92 because I have one sitting right over there and it sounds so good.
Uh,
it was the best sub quite honestly.
Um,
so I really,
really,
really happy with that piece.
Uh All right.
So we've talked a little bit about,
uh,
you know,
surround sound rooms and,
you know,
we sort of touched a little bit on the hi fi side of things.
(19:55):
Um,
we talked a little bit about blades.
Could you maybe take us,
um,
into a little bit of a sidestep?
Uh What would you pair with a pair,
a set of blades?
What are some of the things that you're seeing people do?
And I'm not necessarily trying to take,
uh,
(20:15):
a,
a focus off,
but rather to say,
like,
how do you like to see that system supported?
Big power.
Blades.
Blades love power.
Um,
you know,
there's some great brands out there that make some,
some,
some larger amplifiers.
Um,
you know,
we have a tendency of,
you know,
seeing blades a lot of times on Levinson,
we love the sound of Levinson with blades.
(20:37):
Um,
we've seen it obviously with Macintosh too as well.
Um,
on blades,
uh,
paradigm is what we use.
Um,
at our facilities in Jersey on,
on blades and it sounds really good too,
but that's one spot that you don't wanna kind of chintz out with blade,
you wanna be able to give it the ample power that you need to really kind of get all those drivers moving and get the air moving within that,
(20:57):
that space there.
Um,
blades are a bit of a Swiss army knife.
They're not so specific in the way that they're kind of designed and how they sound that,
that they really sound good in any room,
right?
So obviously things like acoustic treatments and things like that are gonna come into play to be able to kind of help out the sound quality of the blade.
But the key for blades is,
is ample power.
(21:18):
And that's part of the reason why I asked is because it's like we have this design conversation a couple of years ago.
Uh,
me and another guy that we work with and it was one of those things where we said,
if you spend double on power,
what you do on your speakers,
you know,
you've kind of hit a cut off.
And so at a $30,000 set of speakers,
(21:40):
right?
Give or take a few 1000 bucks.
You're saying I could spend up to 50 grand and power in order to correctly drive those things.
And that seems,
I think really counterintuitive and that's why I'm trying to bring up the point like you need to think about your whole system and how you're going to design those components to work together,
to make a cohesive whole.
(22:01):
And that's part of the reason why you can get two speakers to do everything that you want them to do and have amazing quality.
Um So,
uh what else uh do you guys do?
Um from a design perspective,
you mentioned earlier uh meta material.
Um What was the big innovation behind Meta?
Because I'm gonna be honest,
(22:22):
I already liked your speakers and then I liked your speakers a lot more and I it was kind of in a surprising way,
we'll just say it that way.
Sure.
Well,
I mean,
the birth of meta material really kind of started with knowing that there is an innate problem that's in,
in all speakers,
right?
That a sound fires forward from the front of the driver as that driver comes back to rest or moves into the cabinet.
(22:44):
It's the movement of air which we all know sound at the end of the day is simply some movement of air,
that's how sound is created.
Well,
that resonance would happen within the cabinet itself,
right?
Which is not good overall.
And so there's been tons of different technologies whether it be wadding.
Um We used to use this kind of a tube system that went off the back of the tweeter to kind of help eliminate some of that back wave resonance that you got from that.
(23:06):
Um,
other manufacturers do things like tapering tubes and so forth and all of those have been relatively efficient up to this point to about 70% of eliminating that back wave resonance.
Um,
I,
I,
I've got to give Kudos to our current head of acoustic engineering,
which is Doctor Jack Ackley Brown,
a younger individual,
uh,
worked with K forever.
I think he was an intern as he was going through with the,
(23:27):
with the British call uni or what we call college.
Here.
There you go.
Uh Yeah,
he was an intern with ke and uh found this material which um the material itself has been used for,
for other things.
It's normally wrapped around,
things like uh commercial uh air conditioners,
generators,
things that not,
not to kind of quiet them down.
But he said,
hey,
what if I take this material and I put it on the back of the,
(23:49):
the unique driver and try to see how that helps eliminate,
you know,
some of the back way resonance coming off the tweeter.
Well,
long story short,
it was very efficient up to the tune of 99.8% efficient of eliminating that back weight resonance on it.
So when I talked to,
when I talked to,
uh I guess,
uh a layman in the audio world,
(24:09):
it's,
it's like having a perfectly acoustically treated room inside of the speaker is what it is.
That,
that's an awesome way to describe it well,
and it makes sense because the thing that was so surprising is that when I first heard the speakers,
I'm going,
man,
those things are really quiet and everybody goes,
(24:31):
why would you want a quiet speaker?
And it's like,
no,
no,
no,
no,
no,
it's not that the sound that's coming off,
the speaker is quiet.
It's that the noise that would have otherwise been there is now gone.
You know,
you make a great point because the first time I heard Meta,
uh,
I think I was with Parker,
one of my coworkers out of the Chicago area there.
(24:51):
And I'm like,
I don't know if I like this because I've never been used to it before.
And I'm like,
it's just,
it,
it just feels lacking of something and then it took me a while and just kind of listening to him and goes,
oh,
well,
that's not what you're supposed to hear.
Right.
That's gone now.
But I've been so used to hearing it for so many years.
Uh,
but now I absolutely love it.
(25:12):
I,
I tell people all the time that that quietness is good in the same sense of,
uh,
you know,
cold cabin in the middle of the woods next to a fireplace,
reading a book.
It's that kind of quiet,
it's intimate,
warm,
you know.
So it,
it,
it absolutely is.
And,
you know,
the principle goes beyond just cabinets and it goes into rooms like that's why I love that and we were just at um uh or I was just excuse me at uh at ge I know this is gonna sound really weird.
(25:41):
I was doing an appliance training,
believe it or not.
And they have an acoustic listen.
I know,
but they have an antico chamber and the reason I bring it up is because that chamber is if you've never been in one can be very uncomfortable because you're so used to hearing the the sound of the room,
the sound of the air conditioner,
(26:02):
air conditioner in the fridge and all these other things that just create that bed of white noise that when it's gone,
you're like,
oh,
this is very different.
This is,
it's cool,
but you do need to kind of get used to it the first time and then you start to realize how much better it is.
So,
and it still blows my mind when you sent me those pictures that an appliance manufacturer has an Anechoic chamber to test how loud their appliances are.
(26:31):
And that's,
that's incredible to me,
you know,
to that point.
So it's interesting,
I was uh I had an opportunity to kind of look through some CF history and look at Doctor Jack Ackley Brown and what he's done and he graduated from Southampton University.
And so I look at this prestigious University in England and you know,
acoustical engineering and you know,
who graduates from there and who,
who essentially hires people graduates from there.
(26:52):
And I'm looking through the list and CF obviously Cambridge audio.
That makes sense.
And then Dyson,
I'm like,
why is Dyson hiring musical engineers?
And then to your point,
it occurred to me it's like,
oh,
because you want to make the,
the vacuum as quiet as possible.
Right.
And it's just something that we don't think about often.
Well,
and,
and that's the thing I love about audio is that it's such a rabbit trail of a thing.
(27:14):
Like,
and I tell people,
like,
I've been playing the piano since I've been seven.
And so I've been doing things now like 30 years and I'm still nowhere close to the bottom.
Like there's guys out there that are like way over there that still do amazing work um and have done so for a really long time.
So you mentioned the history.
Um What is it uh about uh KF and kind of where you guys came from that really allowed you to be so successful because like,
(27:43):
if I look at some of the things on your resume,
like there's some amazing,
amazing achievements that you guys have.
I,
I think from the get go with Raymond Cook,
the founder of our company back in 1961 is that when he was making speakers,
his goal was to make something that sounds like flesh and blood and not nuts and bolts to really try to,
(28:05):
to mimic the human voice or natural instrumentation,
all of that,
right.
There's some great speakers out there that are 100% necessary for,
for the use that they were used for,
right?
If you're mastering or,
or mixing and you need all of that kind of small detail and information that's important to have a speaker that's able to go ahead and depict that.
But for us,
for CF it's always been about real life,
(28:28):
right?
We understand the importance of when listening to music or listening to a movie that the whole goal of it is to frankly escape to step away from whatever you're doing at that moment,
not worrying about the mortgage or the leak in the garage or the kids acting up in school to be transposed to someplace different,
right?
To be at that first concert when you were 16,
(28:48):
you know,
or,
or to be on the battlefield with Black Panther and Wakanda fighting against,
you know,
Thanos,
right?
To,
to just kind of disconnect from the world.
So that's always been the goal.
It's not to be necessarily the most informative,
but to necessarily to try to be the most lifelike overall.
Uh I love the fact that you said it that way and it's kind of unfair even to your own brand.
(29:10):
And I'm gonna throw you under the bus because you guys have all the detail too,
like all of the things that you would need to mix.
Uh It's all there.
I mean,
I had a conversation with a guy who owns the recording studio here in town and uh he was going back and forth between another manufacturer who I won't mention and a set of LS 50 wireless.
(29:31):
And quite honestly,
we ended up doing a set of those for his near field monitors because he was like,
they give me everything I need in order to make accurate decisions,
like he had to get used to them a little bit.
They weren't the same that he had before.
But like those are perfect studio on it 100%.
And I used them myself for many years.
I had a set of the nocturnes which we can't see,
(29:54):
but maybe I'll bring them out.
Oh,
my goodness,
they're so good.
So good.
Uh We'll move the camera to them here in just a second.
Yeah.
And,
and I know I mentioned it in my,
uh in previous episodes,
but my favorite pair of speakers to listen to music on are my LS 50 Meadows.
Like they are that you,
(30:16):
you,
you brought it up earlier,
like just the sound of the speaker itself being so quiet.
I live in a town home so I can't,
you know,
blast those speakers.
I can turn it into a comfortable volume and really get all the detail that I want.
Um So it's just for me,
I,
I don't want to listen to any other speakers when listening to music.
(30:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well,
you've given us some phenomenal history and some great insight on some of the technology.
Um You mentioned something that I kind of want to go back to because it's something I think a lot of people do,
but it gets glossed over because so many people do it.
Um which is that a lot of the reference series,
(30:57):
those blades,
those are made by hand.
And I saw a documentary on uh on the manufacturing process and I saw something amazing,
which is the same guy who makes the left also makes the right.
And so uh and people don't really know this,
(31:17):
but this is a pair of chef's microphones and that's the matched set.
And the serial number is like right there.
And I bring it up to say like it's one of those things that you don't realize that people do.
And so talk to me about like why that's so important uh in a manufacturing process.
Well,
I think the first thing that comes to mind is pride and craftsmanship,
(31:38):
right?
That individual and it at one point we only had two,
but,
you know,
we've just continued to grow and grow and grow.
That that's actually expanded out.
I think almost to six people now who by the way have to go through a nine month training to be a qualified or certified person to be able to hand build things like blades and reference.
So,
um but it's just the pride,
I mean,
uh pride of building,
(31:59):
right?
The handcrafting of that product,
every,
every blade of reference that you receive,
you'll literally get what we call a birth certificate within it that shows you who made it right?
And funny enough,
one of the guys is Mark and another one is named Dave,
right?
Who knew that?
But what's even more interesting is that uh as Meta came out,
there was a lot of retail stores that had prior versions of the blade that we in the field had to go out and,
(32:20):
and kind of upgrade to the new Meta.
I could take off a driver and look at the inside of a blade and go.
Yep.
That's mark.
There's little nuances and tendencies to how they do things,
whether it be,
you know,
length of cables or things like that inside of it.
But,
um,
yeah,
it,
it's,
it's awesome.
Right.
There's only a handful of guys and that,
you know,
are making your product for you.
(32:40):
And for when you talk about something like a blade which us retails 35,000 for the pair,
there's a certain sense of uh exclusivity knowing that you have one individual master craftsman in the UK,
making that product for you so well.
And it makes perfect sense.
I mean,
we talked about uh technology principles on a previous episode and that principle of specialization,
(33:04):
the idea that I only want one guy to do this one thing,
the absolute best way that he can like,
and to think,
like,
nine months after you get hired in at a company and I'm sure that they probably have to work for the company for an extended period of time before you even go to school before you're allowed to even hit the floor to make something like.
(33:25):
That's just absolutely wild to me.
Absolutely wild.
It's like you guys need your own school.
Yeah,
I do it.
That'd be fun.
Yeah.
All right.
Well,
uh,
we've talked quite a bit about,
uh CF and so I want to kind of shift directions uh into the video game world.
(33:46):
All right.
So the reason for this is that a lot of people love music,
a lot of people love uh movies,
but video games is one of those things.
I think a lot of folks in our generation quite honestly enjoy that some of the older generation didn't grow up with and some play,
but not everybody.
And,
uh I think it's quite honestly become a bigger thing now than it has ever been and it continues to grow.
(34:10):
Um And so I know you're an avid gamer.
I am.
Could you tell me a little bit about how you enjoy games?
That's a little bit different than,
uh,
maybe the traditional Call of Duties and sure.
Uh,
so I'm almost near 40 right born in the eighties kid of the nineties.
And what I collect for is specifically retro video games,
(34:32):
Sega Genesis.
Being the one thing that I'm collecting for,
uh,
right now,
but I'm a nostalgia gamer.
I like the,
you know,
the old school classics with the cartridge that you put into the system.
I've got a 32 inch Sony tube TV at home and,
and,
uh,
that's how I like to game.
And it's interesting.
Right.
I was thinking about this on the drive here.
We talked about kind of the escapism for audio and why audio is so important.
(34:55):
Why people invest money in the audio video games has the same tie in,
right?
For me,
it's it's the opportunity to kind of go back to an earlier time where I'm not worried about which schools the baby gonna go to or the mortgage payment coming up,
I can think back to the times where my hardest decisions and lives were,
what movie should I rent a Blockbuster?
And what kind of what topics do I want on my pizza?
(35:15):
Right?
And so,
so that for me is,
is another way to kind of disconnect from the world today in,
in retro video games and how really it,
it aligns just the same with audio,
right?
I'm glad you took it that direction,
man,
because that's,
that's the whole point.
If I play Call of Duty,
if I play Sega Genesis,
(35:36):
if I play whatever it is,
I want my experience to be my experience,
it's like the correct expression of selfishness.
If I can say it that day.
That's a perfect description.
Like there's no reason to not go ahead and just enjoy that moment because that's,
excuse me,
that's why you've worked for the whole week.
That's why you've done all those things is to enjoy that,
(35:57):
those,
those couple of hours uh,
where you can kind of have your space and do your thing.
Um That's really,
really awesome.
So,
any,
uh,
any recent finds that were especially cool.
Oh,
gosh.
Well,
I've gone down the rabbit hole of really trying to complete the full North American set of Sega Genesis,
which for those of you who don't know,
there's over 800 plus games that got released in the US for,
(36:20):
for Sega Genesis.
Um,
I'm at,
I think about 340 games total right now.
Um,
I get pickups almost every week.
Honestly,
it's hard to kind of keep track.
It's relatively well curated within the room.
I have a whole dedicated room for it.
You know what's funny is as trying to collect the entire set?
(36:42):
I still keep going back to the same staples that I played as a child.
Your sonic,
the hedgehogs,
your streets of rage,
your Shano,
those kind of things.
Um,
I think more so collecting for the whole set is to watch somebody's reaction when they walk into the room and go,
you ever see this before?
And they go,
oh my gosh.
I haven't thought about this in 20 years.
I played this,
(37:02):
I played this and again to be full circle as it relates to audio,
right?
It's kind of the same thing that we do for,
for speakers too,
right?
If,
if you have somebody in your home who's never experienced really high fi audio,
what's the first thing that you do is you go,
oh,
you,
you have to sit,
sit,
sit,
you have to listen to this,
right?
It's the same thing in that gaming room.
It's just introducing somebody and giving them being the first one that provides them that experience that they haven't had before.
(37:26):
So,
yeah.
Yeah.
My brother,
my brother,
uh,
he's,
you know,
just kind of dabbling into this industry a little bit and,
uh,
every time he comes over to the house now I will play him a demo just so he can know like,
hey,
this is,
this is the sound that you can get.
And honestly I ended up letting him borrow a set of speakers because I have too many speakers and he now has a movie night that he has with another friend that,
(37:55):
uh,
if he didn't have those speakers that movie night would not be movie night.
Like,
that's what he told me.
He's like,
it's completely changed just how I spend my Saturday nights watching these movies.
So,
um,
you know,
as far as the gaming aspect goes,
I'm right there with you.
Like,
I,
I do play a lot of the newer stuff.
You know,
I've got a lot of friends all over the US and online gaming has been great for being able to hang out with those folks on a regular basis,
(38:21):
even though when I can't,
I can't physically see them.
But,
um,
for me,
uh the nostalgia is there.
My grandmother actually bought me,
my first Super Nintendo and had an nes.
She got an Nes for herself from my grandfather for Christmas.
I actually just watched the,
the tape a few weeks ago visiting home.
(38:42):
Um,
and I didn't know that she bought it for herself.
I thought that it was ours or she bought it for us.
She bought it for her.
So my brother and I make it a point anytime that my family is in town that we'll play through Super Mario three because,
because that was what my,
we used to play with my grandmother.
Like,
and she would,
she was,
she was the player that would,
you know,
you're running along and she would lift the controller to jump over the.
(39:05):
So,
uh,
yeah,
I mean,
it's,
it's definitely there for me too.
Um,
I don't have quite the collection.
You do but,
uh,
you don't want it.
It,
it's very tight.
My physical media is getting,
getting to me at this point and I don't know where I would put any type of video game cartridges on top of what I already have.
So.
(39:25):
Well,
and I think,
you know,
you talk about the collection aspect of it.
And it's one of those things where I've seen it now for many,
many years,
you go to somebody's house and they say,
you know,
I've got a listening room or I've got a dedicated space and of course,
what do you see on the wall is a huge vinyl collection or huge CD collection.
(39:46):
And I remember hearing the conversation essentially,
like if you've spent 30 or $40,000 on a collection,
right?
Of music,
why would you not invest the same amount of money into the playback system?
100% like it?
And we don't think about dollars and cents always the same way.
(40:09):
A lot of times it's like this concept of gear versus like this versus that.
And,
you know,
do I do this or do I do?
And I get that and,
you know,
is it worth the money and all this?
But at the same time it's kind of like,
yeah,
but you're talking about a technology that has such a long lifespan that you're going back to it saying maybe we should really start juxtaposing what we're doing with the investment,
(40:34):
what that experience is worth.
You know,
if you want to go travel the world,
you know,
you want to go to Europe,
I mean,
what is that?
8 10 $15,000 right?
And you're there for a week,
let's just say,
and then you're done,
you got some pictures and,
and you come home and there's value there.
But why wouldn't I also want to be able to hear every musician from that country for the next 10 years whenever I want?
(41:00):
Correct?
You know,
it's interesting to your point.
I look at that,
that thought process that relates to the gaming world and there's two different kind of camps,
so to speak.
Right.
So there's people who spend a lot of money on really high tech o led displays.
There's clone systems that they make now that are,
you know,
506 $100 that do incredible things with upscaling and things of that nature.
(41:21):
And so there is that modern gamer and then on the opposite,
you know,
who's looking for performance visually,
so to speak.
And then there's the nostalgic guy like me who's happy to have,
you know,
a 4 80 I seven,
you know,
4 80 I two TV,
and the original console,
it just depends on what you're going for.
But yes,
II,
100% agree.
And what's interesting is that across both sectors,
(41:42):
so to speak.
At least I noticed from the gaming community there isn't a ton of money being spent on audio with the exception of headphones,
gaming headsets today,
I think A DS now has a pair of gaming headphones out.
There are $1500 for the pair that as I understand are doing pretty well.
Um But it's quite often when I'm watching youtube videos or Twitch Streamers or things of that nature.
(42:03):
I don't see a lot of near field systems in these videos and it's,
it's,
I think it's an opportunity for the industry altogether is to kind of reach out to these gamers and go,
hey,
yes,
your turtle beaches,
your A DS,
whatever headphones you're wearing are awesome.
But have you ever heard or played Call of Duty on a pair of high quality capable bookshelf speakers?
Right.
And so I think it's an opportunity for,
for really frankly all of us to introduce them and,
(42:24):
and I'm not going to boast,
but I literally had that conversation with one of my oldest clients.
I've known this guy for better part of nine years and we've got a great surround sound system.
We've already done.
We've got a great bedroom system.
He's building a gaming rig and we're having that conversation like,
so what do I do for sound because I want something good and,
(42:46):
you know,
where we ended up is LSX Two,
to be honest,
like,
and we're looking at the price points and we talked about this,
we're going but to get a smooth,
awesome clean sound,
something that can bring me into that experience.
You know,
if I want to pair it with a sub,
I can to get some of that low end rumble,
(43:07):
but he's not going to do that because he's in a smaller space very similar to you mark where it's like,
yeah,
I don't really have the ability to blast this.
I don't need volume,
but I do need detail,
right?
And that's what those are gonna are gonna do.
Um And I mean,
literally yesterday that was a conversation that,
yeah,
that was what I first used.
Um,
(43:27):
before I got the Me the 50 Meadows is I had LSX twos uh for gaming when I'm not using headphones and chatting when I'm doing a single player experience.
Like I really wanted to get that detail.
I mean,
they're sitting right in front of me on the desk,
but I could hear as if I had a full surround sound system right in front of me.
So it was,
it was an awesome experience.
(43:48):
It's interesting how,
you know,
a lot of gamers just almost assume there's nothing else other than headphones when I'm gaming,
I wear headphones or I listen to the terrible TV speakers.
So then what do I do?
I just listen to headphones.
It's,
it's,
it's like an aha moment where you're like,
well,
you can get speakers for that and they're like,
what,
how,
how does that work?
(44:08):
You know,
if you don't want to wear your headphones and still hear,
you know,
the sniper creeping around the corner and call of duty,
you have that detail and capability with a,
with a capable pair of speakers.
So for sure.
Well,
uh,
so I know you guys had made some headphones in the past.
Do you still currently make,
uh any headphones.
We do,
uh,
we make M threes or M sevens.
(44:29):
We have a handful of headphones.
It's,
they're good.
They're certainly good.
Um,
the headphone market is so saturated,
you know,
as an audio brand.
Obviously,
we,
we try to do our best and play ball,
so to speak,
but there is some monster companies out there that do headphones.
So though it isn't necessarily the biggest focus for us.
We do have a few offerings on them.
(44:50):
Well,
I've got a set of uh of those uh true wires ones.
And quite honestly,
that's what I listen to uh when I'm falling asleep.
So it's uh they are uh to your point,
I'm sure there's,
there might be some other companies to consider,
but they're not slouches again.
(45:10):
Caps engineering,
right?
Anything that we do,
we,
we make it with intent for it to be really,
really good for the price point and have very accurate sound.
It's just sometimes we can't,
you know,
take all the engineering guys away from whatever projects they're working on to do headphones because we are first and foremost speaker company first.
So,
yeah,
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Well,
uh why don't we do a segment?
(45:31):
All right,
we're gonna do a segment.
I like segments and uh we've been talking on the uh show quite a bit recently about demo tracks.
Uh And I just,
I can't pass up this opportunity to ask uh from a guy who's done this for a very,
very long time.
Um,
and has probably some different tracks than what I like and different than what Mark likes.
(45:52):
Um,
so what are a couple of,
uh,
demo tracks that you think we should be listening to?
Oh,
there's so many good ones.
Um,
before I give a few tracks,
can I give a word of advice for those who are out there doing demos?
Absolutely.
Uh,
young in my career,
uh,
selling hi Fi,
you know,
uh I used to have a go to demo track,
(46:13):
right.
The same song that I would use on any speaker,
regardless of what I'm playing,
whether it was a satellite Bookshelf Tower,
whether it was something ultra luxury and expensive,
it was the same track I played over and over again.
That thought process is incorrect.
Right.
And I'll tell you why,
how do you differentiate the capability of a $35,000 pair of speakers versus a $350 pair of speakers?
(46:35):
If ultimately both of those can kind of do the same track or your go to track relatively well.
Right.
You have to throw things out of it that's really gonna show not only the capability of the more expensive item but also how the lesser expensive item is just not able to do it.
So,
um,
you should have a large repertoire of demos um,
across all genres,
(46:56):
across all products that you sell.
Right.
The,
whether you're selling a ce or a different brand.
There should be certain tracks that you play for XYZ product for CE,
right?
It should be that specific.
So,
uh,
the demos I'm gonna play and give you right now that I've been playing recently.
Um,
work well on certain products that we make and other ones,
uh,
don't,
so,
but just things that I generally like to play right now,
(47:17):
um,
there's an Austin band by the name of Polya.
Um If I'm not sure if either one of you have heard of them yet.
Um I have not.
Uh they,
there's no lyrics at all.
There's no singing and it is just prolific guitar playing and kind of a metal meets EDM style,
but very well recorded.
Uh And most of the songs are like,
(47:38):
uh going through a journey,
like reading a graphic novel of sorts.
And so there's a track from them called Playing God.
That is absolutely fantastic that I like to do.
Um Another artist that I like to play a lot right now is a Polish guitarist by the name of Marson.
If you ever listen,
I love Marson.
I mean,
these,
I say kids,
can,
I say kids,
I'm almost 40.
(47:59):
I could say kids,
these kids coming up with these guitars,
whether it's just,
you know,
more opportunity to just sit in a quiet room and play it through all the things that have happened,
you know,
throughout the past couple of years.
But they are,
they are skilled like I haven't seen before and Martin is one of them.
He's in his twenties.
Um He uses the entire body of this acoustic guitar for all the progressive elements of what he plays.
(48:21):
I mean,
whether it's tapping,
knocking,
I mean,
there's a,
there's a track from him,
uh which is a cover of Zeppelin's Cashmere that he,
that is fantastic.
But during the song,
I can't even imagine being able to do this.
He literally reaches up onto the tuning pegs de tunes a notice he's playing it and puts it right back into the tune and continue playing it.
It's like he's got more capability in his pinky finger playing the guitar with him where I could,
(48:43):
I could,
I don't think I'd ever get there.
Um More on the kind of R and B and bluesy side.
Um PJ Morton is another artist that I'm listening to.
Um he just originally did a live studio album.
Um He's got a great track with uh with a female artist who I actually saw here in Nashville for the first time at Bridgestone Arena.
Her name is Ye.
(49:03):
Um But they do a cover of How Deep is Your Love,
which is great.
Oh,
it's such a,
it's such a chill kind of vibe to it.
Wonderfully recorded listening to a lot of that at the moment too.
So if I had to give one more kind of in that same vein,
Leon Bridges,
if you haven't listened to him.
(49:23):
Uh,
uh,
another newer,
younger artist who's got that kind of older soul vibe of Otis Redding and Sam Cook.
So,
you know,
call me old fashioned.
But these new artists coming out that sound like something nostalgic and something of the past is kind of what I'm,
I'm leaning towards.
So lots of good stuff out there right now.
That is awesome.
Awesome.
Awesome.
(49:43):
Well,
uh,
thank you very much for sharing and uh Dave,
thank you so much for being with us and uh being our very first guest on our very first video podcast.
Um I just,
we're so honored to have you with us and uh it's been an absolute joy and an absolute pleasure.
So,
thank you,
sir.
It's been my pleasure.
You've seen what you guys have done so far and where this has come to um just happy to be here.
(50:08):
So,
uh I'd like to just say thank you to everybody who uh has been watching and listening.
Um Please like,
comment and subscribe,
share with your friends.
Um If uh you guys wanna hear us,
talk about something specific or if you have questions,
please reach out to us at the Sound of design dot com.
Um And uh we will see you guys on the next episode.
(50:30):
Thank you guys.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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