November 5, 2025 • 46 mins
A much requested topic for the Spiro Podcast: Hiring. The challenges. The tips on how to hire. Tricks for finding good candidates. Things to consider like do you hire contractors or employees? We cover as much as we can to help you find your next great hire to grow your business.
Spiro Sync Event: https://spiro.media/spiro-sync/
Chapter Timestamps:
0:00 Episode Open
02:59 Industry Conferences
03:44 Spiro Sync Event
05:40 Hiring Challenges & Solutions
45:27 Episode Wrap-up
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Coming up on this episodeof The Spiro podcast.
(00:04):
but you get intowhat's called the owner trap.
When your ego is largerthan what it should be,
you get into the owner trapwhere everything revolves around you.
There was a point in my businessthat wow was Todd, and Todd was wow.
And when you grow
to enough agents,that becomes overwhelming
(00:28):
and you are going to drop the ball,you're going to forget things
and you are going to wonderwhy you backed yourself into a job.
(00:49):
Hi and welcome to the Spiro Podcast,managing your real estate,
photography and videography business.
As we say each and every week,Spiro is a software platform.
It's designed to help yourun your day to day real estate
media business, but ultimately really helpyou scale as well.
I'm Craig Magrum, host of podcastWelcome back, Another Week.
(01:10):
If you are a returning viewer or listener,if this is your first time
watching or listening, welcome.
Our whole goal is to helpyou build a strong, strong business.
And we've got a great communitythat's that's being built,
a lot of great participationfrom those that listen and watch.
And we just we appreciate you takingthe time to be a part of this podcast. So,
(01:31):
welcome back, Mr. Todd Kivimaki
Hey, it's incredible to be back.
I snuck out for a vacation for acouple weeks, and it was good to get out.
I saw some of you on the yacht
mastermind with Eli Jones,so that was fun to do in Miami.
And, always good to connect with you guys.
And at this time, right now, Craig,if you're listening to this at launch,
(01:53):
we might be in the air headed to Vegasfor the first of the two conferences.
This is the REPP conference.
So this is just like the highlightof my year seeing all of you.
It's going to be a good time.
I'm looking forward to it as well.
Yeah.
And you know who's in the air with meCraig is
(02:14):
actuallyI think we're on different flights.
Yeah. Craig.
So we are all flying out of Detroit.
We're flying out.
So six of us are going Detroit.
My dad's from, my dad's from Detroit.
So I say it like I'm from Detroit.
Okay. All right.
And we are on three different planesall leaving at the same time.
(02:34):
It's three different planes.I knew we were on at least two.
You and then me with Jess and Steveare on three different planes, I heard.
Oh, that's funny.
So it that I don't know,at least two of them are leaving
within five minutes of each other, but,yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'll wait for you at the airport.
Don't worry. I think I beat you there.
Yeah, yeah.
(02:57):
Hey, if
you are in Vegas with us this week,or if you're listening to this
a couple weekslater, is PMRE, please come and find us.
Okay?
Come find us.We would love to connect with you.
We would love to just talk hereabout your story.
Say hello, come find us.
And, it would just be a thrill of oursto get to meet you in person.
(03:18):
Absolutely.
Please make sure your name tags are out.
I am terrible with names.
Even if I've seen you on social media,seeing your profile picture
versus seeing you in person.
I don't know what it is about my brain,but there's always a disconnect.
I just don't want to feel bad.
Like, who are you? Please say hello.
Yeah.
Very well. It's going to be great.
(03:39):
All right.
So, we have a great topicthis week suggested by the listeners.
And viewers.
We get a very, very strong request, Todd,to talk about hiring.
So that's whatwe're going to be talking about this week.
But before we do, you have an announcementyou wanted to make.
Yeah, just a quick pitch for you all.
Spiro sync. So this is our conference.
(04:01):
This is in January of 2026,
the 22nd and the 23rd in Dayton, Ohio.
This is our first timewe're putting together a conference.
So and we have done thisbecause we want to connect with you.
We want you to come grow and learn,but we also want you to take a breath.
And we want to helpyou build community around you.
(04:23):
So we're hoping to put about 150 peopleto a small group
into a room for a couple of days.
Have you guys connect?
We're going to go out into the cityand do some fun things in the evening and,
just all take a breath, learn a littlebit, gear up, jump start for 2026.
And then I've been saying this,but my goal is that you leave Dayton, Ohio
(04:46):
with a few new phone numbersin your cell phone.
Some people that you might leanon, some people that you might hop on
on a Wednesday
evening to just talk about life, business,whatever it may be.
But that's our goal for it.
We would love to have you come.
Tickets are still available,but they are going fast,
so please don't wait to book the VIP.
(05:08):
Tickets sold out almost immediately,but still,
we have a limited numberof remaining tickets that are still great.
Both days you get to go to.
We're going to feed you on those days.
Visit Spiro.media.
Click the Spiro Sync button to find outthe full list of, who, what, when,
where, and why, and then you can bookyour ticket from the website.
(05:31):
Let's get again. Going to be a great time.
I'm looking forward to that. Yeah.
So that's it for me, Craig.
Let's, you know, it's great.
We saw this, suggested quite a bitin the comments and also in emails.
So if you if you have a topic,please let us know.
Hello@spiro.media or just if you'reon YouTube you can post in the comments.
(05:51):
But we are here to bring you valueand enough of you said, hey,
let's talk about hiring and it'svery fitting this time of the year.
Craig.
It is, it is.
And I you know, we'vewe've faced a little bit of a challenge
hiring ourselvesas a particularly in my market,
where I'm currentlythe only photographer and videographer.
(06:11):
And it is
it has been a challengeto finding somebody,
either qualified or interestedor schedule works out for them.
Doesn't work.
You know, it's hiring why
Let's let's ask the first question.
Why does it seem hiring is soI don't want to say hard, but challenging.
(06:33):
Yeah, it's a great question, Craig.
You know, when you look at hiring,I, I think that the available
working markethas has slimmed down a little bit.
And I think that you havesome people stuck in between
and between jobs or sizes of careers.
And for us, we are looking at we're tryingwho do we attract.
(06:57):
Right.
Like do we attract creativesthat know how to shoot real estate media?
Well, it's a niche market.
Like how how many people,you know, more people know how to shoot
real estate media in 2025 than in 2004when I started, you know?
But still, it's not like you'reputting out a post.
They're not teaching this in school.
So do you go to getdo you go to creative then?
(07:20):
Are you trying to pull them from weddingsand babies and families
or creating corporate videosor customer services are really big.
It's probably the biggeraspect of our job, right?
Craig?
So do they hire somebody that expands?
Yeah,
yeah.
I you know, it's one of those thingswhere I think
(07:42):
there's an e for real estate photography.
there's an eye for real estate photography.
I've had realtors tell me you'veyou've got the eye for it Craig.
I'm like, well that's great, butpart of that is developed and cultivated
by the training that I went through.
Yeah.
There is some certainly some natural,you know, talent people can have for it.
But I'm convinced that a large part of,
(08:04):
success in being a real estatephotographer,
is the customer service,the interpersonal skills.
And maybe that's my sales,
you know, business development bias.
But I, I firmly believe people buyfrom people they know, like and trust and,
and we've probably all heardthat phrase, but,
(08:27):
I don't know, I've seen some photographersthat, that have that and do very well
in some that don't.
And the realtor doesn't relateto the photographer nearly as well.
And really, I think this is a team effortthe realtor has to see.
Their photographer is, a trusted close
team member that they can say,this is my photographer.
There's like some ownershipthat the realtor feels in having
(08:50):
a particular individual be part of theirteam in front of the seller.
Yeah for sure.
Let's let's breakthat down a little bit, Craig.
The psychology of that.
So if you are looking at hiring,
then at some point and maybe
right nowyour clients are used to only you.
Yeah.
(09:11):
So that is a hurdle.
And there's ways to get over that.And it's part of growth.
But if your clients are used to youand you have the relationship,
you know that Craig made a pointthat's so important
then that is something
that you have to pass offin train to your photographer.
(09:31):
Also, I you know,
I look back over the years and
when I shot houses
and I haven't shot a housefor a very long time
when I shot houses.
And I'm not saying this to boost my ego,I don't know if I literally got
one complaint
now. It'snot because my media was spectacular.
(09:55):
Like, if I look back at my mediafrom 10 or 15 years ago,
I cringe.
It's bad, like it's evolved a lotsince then, but I'm like, oh my.
Like I used to angle down on rooms.
Craig
yeah, yeah yeah.
There's, you know, I,I would I'm six, I'm six foot seven.
(10:16):
You I'd put the camera above my headand pointed down.
I thought it was a cool view.
And nobody complained about it.
You know what?
Because you're
I was it was bad stuff.
But they all.
I had the relationship with them.
They trusted me. Yep.
And that is one thing
(10:36):
that we have some we've had somereally great photographers over the years.
Like really good eye,technical photographers that
don't speak or don't
have good enoughcustomer service in a property.
And we get feedback from themthat they were rude.
Yes. Or they seem so thatthat's kind of the tone that we get
(10:59):
and that I think that shows that
if your clients, the agentsand their client,
the homeowner, if they leave feeling wild,
feeling warm,
they don't care so much about the photos,
they're less apt
to point and say,where was this photo? You didn’t
(11:22):
Take that, or this is not as steadyas it could be, or I want more contrast
because
they have theythey feel good about the person.
They don't make them
maybe don't want to hurt their feelingsor oh, it's good enough.
And then they don't try to nitpick it.
And we've had cases
before where the agent hasnot had a good customer
(11:46):
service experience at the propertywith our photographer,
and they just nitpicked the crap
out of that set of images.
And I looked at him.
There's nothing wrong with them,
but we just know at that pointthe damage has already been done.
Like we would just sendanother photographer out there.
They would take the same exact photosand the realtor be happy with them.
(12:10):
So would you say in hiring?
Is the first thing you're looking for?
Personality and customer service.
Communication over for the creative side.
For us it is Craig 100%.
So we want to take ourour first core value.
Wow. As clients are our numberone priority.
So we have to align with that.
(12:31):
We have to hire photographersthat have that
as a core valueand want to take care of the clients.
We can teach them all the photo and video.
We've got a phenomenal videoseries and curriculum
that will walk somebody throughknowing nothing to taking very good
photo, video and drone, okay, 3D,all this stuff.
So we're confident about that,
(12:53):
that we can do that.
Just as a side note here, shameless plug,if you are interested in that.
I've said that enough
and enough of you have said, hey,wait a minute, can I have this?
Like, can I, can I buy this?Can I have access?
Can I find out more about what you havefor your video curriculum?
We are looking athow we can get that to you.
(13:15):
What's relevant to you?
If you could just email ushello@spiro.media
and let me know you're looking for that.
I'll put you in contact with Steve who'sspearheading that at Wow,
but that has been a huge resource for usbecause we if I look
at some of our best photographers,one of them came from as a factory worker.
(13:35):
Yes. The other one worked in,
customer service management,
where they were eitherbartenders or waiters,
and they are our best photographersbecause they walk in
and they can just carry on a conversation.
They can make people feel warm.
But in our in our training that we havefor more the creative and technical side,
you know, how, what angles to take,how many to take.
(13:57):
You know, all of that.
The one thing I don't think we haveis, is the customer
service side, how to interact.
So when I have, when I've trainedor had people shadow me up in my market,
I approach it from the businessdevelopment side
because the challenge I've run intois exactly what you referred to earlier.
Todd.
People get used to you doing their photosand they develop that relationship
(14:21):
and then they don't want anybody else.
And that's been part of my challenge,is getting realtors comfortable
with somebody besides mebecause I'm I'm at capacity.
I can't take on any additional clients,
and I need some of my current clientsto be able to trust another photographer.
That'spart of our team and part of our system,
so that I can have some time freed up.
(14:42):
Right?
So when I've had people shadow me,
I approach it from from the businessdevelopment side
and I'll, I'll share with themhow to how to talk
with the realtor, how to interactwith the with the seller, helping them
understand you're part of that Realtorsteam when you're on this appointment.
Yes, you're part of wow video tours,but you're part of X Realtors.
(15:04):
You know, team and you represent them.
Your your job is to try and help them winmore listings.
So anything you can do to put yeah.
Like you saida good feeling into that seller
when that seller's asked by a friend
or a family member, hey,who did you use to sell your house?
They're going to think of that realtor
(15:25):
in, in that realtor will get that referralin that that lead in.
When another listing. So if you can,
embed yourself as part of
that Realtorsmarketing team as a photographer,
that that's the thingI'm trying to instill in any new members
that we have as part of our team
is that you're not just a photographeror a creative.
Yeah, you've got a great eye.
(15:46):
You take beautiful pictures,but it's more the job is more of that.
So you've got to look for that naturalbent and then cultivate that, grow it.
Give them those little tips,tips and tricks that you've
developed over the years to buildsuch a like, good clientele.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Now we don't want to scare youand think that hiring is not worth it
(16:07):
because,oh no, no, it definitely it definitely is.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, there'schallenges to anything
and there are challenges to hiring.
And we're going to jump into those soon.
But I just want to make the point thatbecause I think it's important for you
all as owners out there to getthis was tough for me.
So I want toI want to share this with you.
(16:29):
When I was doing all of the photography,
I was maybe doing 15k, 20K a month, okay.
And it was just me andI didn't have to deal with any complaints.
I knew every one of my clients like,
I felt like I gave stellar
customer service,like I wowed them every time,
(16:50):
but and and then when I hired,
we lost some of the clients
that loved Todd. So.
And that was hard.
I've got a name that comes to mind,
Rhonda, and I won't say her last name,
but I had worked so hard to get Rhondaand she had a great relationship
(17:13):
with her current photographer at the time,and I had called.
I'd stop by.
I'd sent things I wanted to get Rhonda.
She was a top,
probably five agent at a new companythat I was not really embedded in.
And her photographer went on vacation
and her photographerdidn't have backup photographers.
(17:35):
And you know who was there?
I was, and I happened to shoot the home
of her builder that they were livingin their personal home. Wow.
So not only so, Rhonda was at the shoot,
and not only was Rhonda the shoot,but the homeowners as the builder
who builds a lot of housesand Rhonda sells them was at the shoot.
(17:59):
And Craig, you know what?
I thought my jokes were good that day.
My my hair was put togetherlike I was on it,
like, I like I I'm sorry, this is my ego.
But I knocked this one out of the park,like there.
Like I just had it.Like I was like, I still got it.
And Rhonda shot every property with me
(18:20):
after that property.
And I was proud of it.
Like, I was hat like I was happy about it.
And then honestly, when wewhen I brought Ryan on
as our next in linephotographer, Ryan was better than me.
His jokes are better, his hair is better.
He's got more of a hard part.
These fancy glasses,he was just better than me.
(18:42):
And she was good with him too.
But when we grew beyond myself and Ryan,
that's when
she just wanted that personal relationship
and I had to be okay with it.
It hurt like I cry a little tear
at nightevery once in a while because of it,
(19:04):
because I worked so hardto get that relationship.
And she does a lot of listings, but
if I wanted to get
another 1000 agents,
I had to be okay losing Rhonda.
And I just want to make that pointto all of you
that you are going to lose some clients,not all of them.
(19:27):
You're going to lose a small percentof clients because they are used to you.
And the 20K that I was doing back then,
it was myself and maybe Ryan
pales no comparison to the 350K a monthwe do now.
Okay, so this is part of growing you.
You are going to change clientsthat found you
(19:50):
attractive in a business senseat your stage
now versus 30 some photographers,they're different.
And you're going to lose some people.
So you just have to get over that.
There's no easy way about it.
So that's hard.
That was part of my problemtoo, is when I hired
my first photographer,when I had, you know, had my business,
(20:14):
I the feedback I would get is
he's a nice guy, but he's he's quiet.
He's not you.
And and they would they would saythe pictures aren't quite as good
and I'd look at them.
I'm like, this is exactly how I wouldshoot the photos.
But it boiled down to that relationship.
So yeah, if you can,if you can train people
(20:35):
when you hire them and see that potentialfor great relationship building
and in that photographerand bring that out of them,
I think you can mitigatesome of that loss.
Probably. Yeah.
Yeah, you can for sure.
And you can grow bigger than you've everwould have grown.
Yeah.
With where you're at now is part ofit is being the owner.
(20:56):
You have to kill a little bit of your egoand get over those lost relationships.
Oh, let me,
Yeah.
Oh, it's that's horrible.
Oh, I got it.
Yes, yes.
100% struck a nerve there, Oh my ego.
(21:16):
Oh, my chest for a second.
Yes, you do.
And that is hard because youyou worked hard
to build those relationshipsand you don't want to let them go.
Okay.
All right, all right.
But the thing is,and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.
One quick point is that.
(21:39):
And I'm talking on this in Vegas this week
if you're here, but you get intowhat's called the owner trap.
When your ego is largerthan what it should be,
you get into the owner trapwhere everything revolves around you.
There was a point in my businessthat wow was Todd, and Todd was wow.
(22:01):
I can't tell youhow many real estate agents I am in there.
Phone is Todd. Wow.
Yeah, yeah, there is no difference.
You call Todd,you get wow, you call. Wow. That's Todd.
And when you grow
to enough agents,that becomes overwhelming
and you are going to drop the ball,you're going to forget things
(22:22):
and you are going to wonderwhy you backed yourself into a job.
I did it, I did it for many years.
That's a new did it multiple times.
That's an interesting phrase.You just said.
Can you expand on that a little bit?
You backed yourself into a job.
Yeah, because,
(22:42):
well, we all start our businessbecause we don't want to work for a boss
we hate, or we want to have thewe want to have the freedom
to own something,or we're taking the leap of faith
to create somethingthat our kids can have.
And if you do it the wrong way,
(23:02):
you're getting into this owner trapor you're in the corner where you are
tied to nothing more than a jobbecause everything revolves around you
and you have to do everything.
And then you go,I use this analogy in my presentation.
You hang out with your good friends
(23:23):
on Friday evening.
And you sit in their garagewhen everybody's happy and smiling
and telling storiesand you have nothing to say, hey,
and it still strikes a chord with mebecause
I remember sitting in this location.
These were best friends of ours,
(23:45):
and I sat thereand I couldn't think anything except work.
I had nothing to add.
I couldn't ask some of my best friends
how they are, how they are, how's life?
How are their kids?
Because I was so trapped in my business
and I thought everythinghad to revolve around me,
(24:07):
and I didn't know how to get out, y'all,I really didn't.
It took help from a lot of people,but I was so trapped down in a deep, dark,
well and I had some really bad thoughtairs in my head,
and it took a lot of years to beginto reshape those and reshape the team.
And I don't want that for you all,I really don't.
I want you to build a healthy business.
(24:28):
You have to rely on other people,and part of rely on other people means
that it's not youthat does it, which is a great thing.
But those small percentage of clients
that have to have you are goingto go find someone else. Hey,
you got to protect your own
personal margin,is what I'm hearing and thinking.
(24:50):
Yes, 100%.
Craig.
There are two booksthat are coming to mind,
and I'm blanking on the on the exact name,the names of them,
but I think one of them is boundaries,or it's something about boundaries.
I have to look it up.
I'll put it in the notes.
If I find the final name of the booksthat talk about that specifically.
(25:13):
So, yeah.
Great. Okay.
Okay. Let's jump into the particularsbecause we have.
Yeah.
We've got we want to help youwith the particulars as well.
So so what might my questionI think the question that's
at the top of most of these people'sminds and guys,
forgive me of if I've assumed wrong,but what are the specific challenges
(25:35):
that owners are finding in hiringphotographers?
So photographers specifically, what
what are the roadblocks to to finding themand getting them on board?
What would you say?
I've got a couple in the back of my head,but what about you?
Yeah.
So if the first is like,oh, this is kind of scary.
I don't know, like, what is hiring?
(25:55):
Are they a contractoror they a W-2 employee.
Like, what do I have to do?
Like I'm just used to doing my own thingand I know what I do with taxes
and I file this way, but like now,someone else is going to depend on me.
And that's a that's a heavy
that's a not a burden.
But that's a, that's a greatthat's heavy required responsibility.
(26:16):
Thank you Craig. Yeah.
And so I did this I,
I just naturally when I startedI was scared of that. And
please hiring an employee is not scary.
It's actually very simple.
There are regulations.
There's regulationsbetween a contractor, an employee.
And I'm going to go over both of those.
And I'm going to tell you prosand cons of both of them.
(26:39):
So all of our photographers at Wow,
except for two are contractors,1099 contractors,
because we want to go look for peoplewho have their own business
that are looking for work.
Monday through Friday, and
then fill it inwith some of their own work.
(27:02):
So these are people that are doingmaybe some corporate video
on the weekends or gigs come on Saturdayswhen weddings are all right.
Also bartenders,
they might have another joband they're looking to freelance.
Okay.
A lot of our people are crehave some ex of creativeness
where they do something music, photo,
(27:22):
video art, something creative,and this happens to fit in.
And I did that because immediatelyI was like,
I don't want to hire employees.
I was like, this is kind of really scary.
It's not.
But the thing about being a
and contractor employeeand I'm not an attorney.
Also, please
(27:42):
consult an attorney in your statebecause this is a little bit different,
but it all comes down to control.
Do you have control over that individual.
So for our photographers, they remainthey retain all control.
They tell us when they want to work.
(28:02):
They have the ability to not take a job.
They tell us what they chargefor a service.
We have an agreement on aon a pay scale for them.
They they can invoice us for a fee
that pertains to a jobthat might not be normal.
Okay.
So that is their business
invoicing our business,and we lose some control as to where
(28:26):
if a photographer doesn'twant to go to a job,
say, in a far out city or outlier,as we call them,
they can say no to it, and then it's on us
to try to either finda different contractor that will go or
compensatethem, come up with some agreement
for compensation that they say, yes,this is a job I want to take.
(28:48):
Okay. So we lose that as a company.
Now, on the flip side, as an employee,
you are going to tell your employeewhere to go and when to work,
and you're going to pay them for that timeand their expenses.
And you have control.
So if an employeedoes not want to go to the far city,
then they are somewhat being insubordinateand then of your request
(29:12):
and you need to pay themto go to that city.
And so do you see everythingkind of boils down to the same.
Like if you send an employee to a far out
city,you're just compensating for this time.
And probably if a contractor doesn'twant to go out to the far out city,
they're seeing it not worth their time.
But it all comes down to control.
Do you want the control of doing that?
(29:34):
And we find with us atWow that we are okay with our 30
some photographers keeping their control,and we feel like it's a good relationship
because we need to be attractive to themso that they want to take jobs.
And in the same sense,they want to be attractive to us
so that we have the ability to say,hey, we have jobs for you.
(30:01):
When when a
potential contractoris talking with you, it
and they ask guaranteed incomeor guaranteed
number of jobs, what's your response.
How do you handle that.
Yeah I was askedI found that to be a sticking point.
Yeah. Nothing is guaranteed.
This is the nothing is guaranteed
(30:25):
as you have enough availabilityand you keep your schedule open
and you accept jobs.
The more jobs you accept, the more moneyyou'll make.
The higher skills that you have,the more you will make per job.
Now we do show them, hey,
an average contractorthat accepts this many jobs.
(30:46):
This is about what your.
This is aboutthe fees that you would make.
So we try to paint the picture for themand connect the dots.
Because againthey're coming into an industry
that they don't have a lot of knowledge.
We're still a very niche industry,with real estate photography.
And they're coming inand they might not completely understand
(31:06):
some of the business logic and the workings of just how it's going to pan out.
Sure.
Okay.
How do you handle questions of,
specific equipmentthat's needed for the job?
What if what if they don't have the gearthat's needed for photos,
video, drone, 360 tours, things like that?
(31:29):
How what what does the conversationlook like with a potential hire for that?
Yeah.
So with contractorsthey have to have that equipment.
So think of a contractor.
There's housesbeing built in my neighborhood right now.
Somebody digging a foundationlike I can't hire a foundation guy
if he does not have a backhoe.
Sure. He's not coming.
(31:50):
Hey, will you rent me a back?
No. Like, that's why I hired you.
You need to have your own equipment.
Now, I will say
that we do help them facilitate
getting their own equipmentwith our contractors.
That if they have to buyall of their own own equipment
and sometimes having enough moneyupfront to purchase all of the equipment
(32:14):
can be limiting.
And we don't want that to be limiting.
So we have a program wherewe will purchase the equipment for them.
They sign a contract with us.
They agree that they're going to payfor 100% of that equipment
over 24 months.
We charge zero interestand they put a credit card on file
(32:37):
that we charge every month for thatpayment,
say, okay.
Now, in contrast,if you're hiring employees,
you are buying all of that equipmentand supplying it to them.
Right.
And the flip side is and we haven'ttalked a lot about employees, I,
(32:57):
I think an employee route is six of onehalf dozen of another.
It it really is with an employee.
You're buying that equipment.
You're you're paying them less per job and
and equivalents because now you are payingfor all of that.
You're supplying everything they need.
You're coveringmore time on site if they need it.
(33:21):
Okay.
I know another questionI've seen come through is how do I pay?
What's the pay structure?Am I paying them?
Like an hourly rate or is it a per
job or a, you know, is it like a salary?
Which would get weirdif it's a contractor.
So questions ofhow do you compensate for a contractor?
(33:42):
I mean, obviously we know howwe compensate for an employee, but,
how do you compensate contractors? What?
Yeah. That structure.
Yeah.
So with contractors, they get paid pereach service that they perform.
So if they do photos, they get X.
If they do video, they get Y.
If they do drone, they get Z.
And that all adds together.
(34:04):
And that's whatthey essentially invoice us for that job.
So it doesn't matter square footageor how long the job takes.
You know, it's not an hourly rateor a size rate, it's just an hourly rate.
But because a job is largerwith a larger home,
then those rates do increase for them.
Okay okay.
(34:25):
So you have a because the job is bigger.
Yes. Yeah. Got it okay. Good stuff.
I'm trying to think of other thingsI've seen come through.
How where do you find potential candidatesas contractors or employees.
How how do we advertise for openingsthat we have needs that we have.
(34:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm going to let me clarifyone thing on the last question real quick,
because I want to give you the,the comparison, between the two. So
I am not saying because we use contractorsthat you should use contractors.
I think that this is probablya good discussion to have with an attorney
and an accountant in your area,and really, neither are that difficult.
(35:08):
There's just a checklistwith each that you need to abide by.
Okay, so with a contractoryou have to make sure they retain control.
You have to make sure they have insurance.
You have to make sure like we make surethat they are actively advertising their
services, not real estate photography,but they're advertising their services.
Maybe shooting weddings,families, babies doing artwork.
(35:32):
We've we have found thatthat is an important thing, that they are
a business they're advertising out there,even if it's just on social media.
Okay.
So there's a check there.
Yeah. And we found that out the hard way.
We were audited one year and it came back.
And that was one thingthey looked at like, hey, show me that
(35:52):
this person, actually somebody elsecan hire them for something else.
And so we had to go and we would show,hey, here's their Facebook
page, here'stheir website, here's their publication.
And that was a determining factor, becausewhen you're their only source of income,
at least Ohio doesn't like seeing that
because you ultimately control them.
(36:14):
So we changed a few things.
Just like if you are your own business,a contractor, you have insurance, okay.
That that is a big thingthat contractors have.
You have,
you have your own equipment,
you advertise your services,you have a EAI in,
(36:35):
and you don't use your socialas your business name.
So all of these things tiein to a contractor versus employee.
For those of you that might not be aware,EIN employer
identification number correct?
Correct. Yes.
It's it just it's a process
you have to go through with your stateto say, hey, I'm a business.
This is my business name.
(36:56):
And then you get a number assignedto the business.
Perfect, perfect.
Let me let me contrast that. Sorry.
This is a long point,but I want to make it
because this is actually a very simple oneversus the other.
If you want to hire employees,what we find people are pain
is people are typically are payingstarting at the $25 an hour range.
(37:18):
And as that employee then
becomes certified with video and drone,
we see a lot of companies having successand bumping them up to $30 an hour.
And again,
you might have to correlate thisto your market,
but 25 30 and then we see
(37:41):
that people that other companiesare bumping them up to 35.
Then when that
photographer becomes more of what you calla lead photographer or trainer.
So when you can depend on thatphotographer helping on board,
give feedback, train new photographers.
That's we are seeing a lot of companies
bump them up to 35and they make more per hour.
(38:04):
Make sense.
So that is and this is essentiallywhat we do at Wow to with contractors.
Contractors over the years say, hey,I used to charge you X for photography
and I've been doing this for X,I've been doing this for five years.
Like I'm going to charge youx plus y. Okay.
So rates go up. This is natural.
(38:25):
It happens with contractorsand photographers.
But I don't want you to be scared ofothers of of either.
Just make an informed decision ofdo you ultimately want control
or are you okay knowing that thethat the individual has control?
Got it,
got it.
Okay.
All right.
So let's go to that question of thenhow do you find people to hire.
(38:49):
Yes. So we have trieda lot of different ways
and we have success with indeed.
Okay.
Just where we really have successthat we find that it gets enough,
it makes enough of a splash
out there that we get good enoughapplicants and city to city, we find that
Craig's market, fortunately for us,is just the most difficult we have.
(39:13):
We have a lot of successin all of the other cities.
And it's that guy in that market.
He's just impossible to work with,I tell you.
Yeah.
We need to talk about thaton your grade card episode,
So we go to.
Indeed.
And we find that there isthere is some secret sauce
(39:36):
or the ability to get betterin the way you post a job.
Okay, so posting a job,you want to be clear about what it is.
And you also need to entice them to wantto look at the job and consider the job.
We find that
having custom questions on the indeed jobpost is very helpful.
(39:57):
Okay.
I stole this from Colleen Kydd.
She they have a process where she has
custom questions,and she asks them to do a video.
Okay?
A video of themselves.
Because us connectingwith that individual.
Super important.
Remember, we talked a lot in this showabout just the personality
(40:17):
of the photographer.
Like,if we can cross that off with yes or no
at the beginning by seeing them faceto face on a camera, how do they interact?
Do they speak well?
Are they personable?
Are they upbeat in the video?
If they don't do the video,
then they're not reallythat interested in the job right?
So you have to have a good mixof trying to entice them, but also
(40:41):
trying to weed enough of them outbecause you don't want to call 100 people.
It's if you get to the finish line
and you realize one thing about a person
that disqualifies them for the job,
you've essentially wasted all of that timeand you have to restart the process.
(41:05):
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Colleges, universities,great places to advertise as well.
I'm imagining.
Yeah.
And actually we have we have a potentiallead here in my market.
And it was somebody that heardabout our opening through their,
their college advisor.
(41:26):
And, he reached out to meand we had a great sit down yesterday,
in fact, and, or. No, two days ago.
And so that's that's another option.
Contact your local universities,community colleges,
you know that there's potential candidatesthere as well.
Yeah, they love they love businesses
that are looking to hire collegegraduates.
(41:47):
So please contact them.
They will persist for you.
They will connect people with you.
And that serves them well, servesthe graduate well and serves you well.
So reach out to them, put it onthose boards, connect with those people.
And that's a good possibilityof candidates.
Beautiful.
All right.
Well, Todd, any closing thoughts?
(42:08):
We we had quite a few differentlittle points.
And I know this is
we could go on another hourtalking about how to hire people, but
hopefully this isthere's been some good nuggets here.
But any any final thoughts you have
just a couple.
Craig I think the biggest thing is,is when you want to hire.
I want you to take that extremelyseriously.
(42:29):
Hey, it's not a scary thing, but
for the good of the person,the good of you,
make sure you've thoughtabout the process.
Think aboutwhy would that person want to come in, and
do they feelthat they can grow with your company?
Or is this just going to be a job?
It is going to be very costly for youand you're going to
(42:53):
you're going to want to have the tendencyto think that you should stay solo.
If you hire someone
and they just churn oneafter the next three months, six months,
it's painful
for everyone involved,including your clients.
It's not the best thingthat your clients see.
A whole lot of faces.
(43:15):
So there is a ton of value
in finding the right personpaying someone.
Well, that was one thing that I thinkas I started,
I tried to find someonewho would do it for cheap.
Okay.
And one of my favorite people's
court judge Milian quotes
sometimes that cheap ends up expensive.
(43:38):
Yeah.
So please don't try to pinch pennies.
Do have a conversation with an attorneyor your accountant or a business owner.
This is an important thing that will helpyou grow.
Remember, my 20K a month does not compareto the 350K a month.
It's a good thingand you're going to screw it up fine.
(44:00):
I just close with this.You're going to screw it up.
And when
you screwit up, you should go to the employee
or the contractorand tell them you screwed something up.
Apologize to them, ask them how they feel.
What could you change to try
to get through this screw up
(44:22):
no matter what it is?
Maybe it'sjust you don't connect with them enough.
Maybe they feel likethey don't have a relationship.
Maybe you didn't train them well enough.
You're going to doall of those things bad.
I screwed all of them up in times ten.
But as you slowly learn and you document
the process, you will get the hang of it.
And it is the best thing ever.
Because now, 21 years,almost 22 years in the wow,
(44:47):
I don't know if any of our new clientseven know who I am.
I don't know if any of our new clientsin the last five years even know who I am.
And that's a
powerfulthing because I show up on Friday nights
now with friends,and I'm not an owner trap.
And it's because I've leaned on a team,I've empowered a team, we've grown a team,
(45:12):
we've taken care of a team,and they are taking care of me.
A great way to end, a great way to end.
The owner trap.
I look forward to hearing more on that.at REPP.
It's going to be good.
Yeah, looking forward to it.
All right.
Well, guys,hopefully that was helpful to you.
Feel free
to post some comments on the YouTubechannel if you have further questions.
(45:33):
We'll, we'll try and answerthose as best we can.
Feel free to drop us an email.
Hello@spiro.media.
But like Todd said, talk with an attorney,a business coach,
somebody that can mentor youa little bit more hands on and personally
on that and, helpyou set up for, for some good success.
(45:53):
Todd.
Thank you. Appreciate it. My pleasure.
All right. Well,you guys have a great week.
Make sure you take some time to bethankful as we are heading into.
Well, yeah, we're we're in November now.
Season of Thanksgiving here in the US.
Already celebrated Thanksgiving in Canada.
So happy belated Thanksgiving to ourCanadian brethren and sister in up there.
(46:16):
But yeah, just take some timeto be thankful, for your blessings
and make sure you take some timeto breathe. Have a great week.
Coming up on this episodeof The Spiro podcast.
(00:04):
but you get intowhat's called the owner trap.
When your ego is largerthan what it should be,
you get into the owner trapwhere everything revolves around you.
There was a point in my businessthat wow was Todd, and Todd was wow.
And when you grow
to enough agents,that becomes overwhelming
(00:28):
and you are going to drop the ball,you're going to forget things
and you are going to wonderwhy you backed yourself into a job.
(00:49):
Hi and welcome to the Spiro Podcast,managing your real estate,
photography and videography business.
As we say each and every week,Spiro is a software platform.
It's designed to help yourun your day to day real estate
media business, but ultimately really helpyou scale as well.
I'm Craig Magrum, host of podcastWelcome back, Another Week.
(01:10):
If you are a returning viewer or listener,if this is your first time
watching or listening, welcome.
Our whole goal is to helpyou build a strong, strong business.
And we've got a great communitythat's that's being built,
a lot of great participationfrom those that listen and watch.
And we just we appreciate you takingthe time to be a part of this podcast. So,
(01:31):
welcome back, Mr. Todd Kivimaki
Hey, it's incredible to be back.
I snuck out for a vacation for acouple weeks, and it was good to get out.
I saw some of you on the yacht
mastermind with Eli Jones,so that was fun to do in Miami.
And, always good to connect with you guys.
And at this time, right now, Craig,if you're listening to this at launch,
(01:53):
we might be in the air headed to Vegasfor the first of the two conferences.
This is the REPP conference.
So this is just like the highlightof my year seeing all of you.
It's going to be a good time.
I'm looking forward to it as well.
Yeah.
And you know who's in the air with meCraig is
(02:14):
actuallyI think we're on different flights.
Yeah. Craig.
So we are all flying out of Detroit.
We're flying out.
So six of us are going Detroit.
My dad's from, my dad's from Detroit.
So I say it like I'm from Detroit.
Okay. All right.
And we are on three different planesall leaving at the same time.
(02:34):
It's three different planes.I knew we were on at least two.
You and then me with Jess and Steveare on three different planes, I heard.
Oh, that's funny.
So it that I don't know,at least two of them are leaving
within five minutes of each other, but,yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'll wait for you at the airport.
Don't worry. I think I beat you there.
Yeah, yeah.
(02:57):
Hey, if
you are in Vegas with us this week,or if you're listening to this
a couple weekslater, is PMRE, please come and find us.
Okay?
Come find us.We would love to connect with you.
We would love to just talk hereabout your story.
Say hello, come find us.
And, it would just be a thrill of oursto get to meet you in person.
(03:18):
Absolutely.
Please make sure your name tags are out.
I am terrible with names.
Even if I've seen you on social media,seeing your profile picture
versus seeing you in person.
I don't know what it is about my brain,but there's always a disconnect.
I just don't want to feel bad.
Like, who are you? Please say hello.
Yeah.
Very well. It's going to be great.
(03:39):
All right.
So, we have a great topicthis week suggested by the listeners.
And viewers.
We get a very, very strong request, Todd,to talk about hiring.
So that's whatwe're going to be talking about this week.
But before we do, you have an announcementyou wanted to make.
Yeah, just a quick pitch for you all.
Spiro sync. So this is our conference.
(04:01):
This is in January of 2026,
the 22nd and the 23rd in Dayton, Ohio.
This is our first timewe're putting together a conference.
So and we have done thisbecause we want to connect with you.
We want you to come grow and learn,but we also want you to take a breath.
And we want to helpyou build community around you.
(04:23):
So we're hoping to put about 150 peopleto a small group
into a room for a couple of days.
Have you guys connect?
We're going to go out into the cityand do some fun things in the evening and,
just all take a breath, learn a littlebit, gear up, jump start for 2026.
And then I've been saying this,but my goal is that you leave Dayton, Ohio
(04:46):
with a few new phone numbersin your cell phone.
Some people that you might leanon, some people that you might hop on
on a Wednesday
evening to just talk about life, business,whatever it may be.
But that's our goal for it.
We would love to have you come.
Tickets are still available,but they are going fast,
so please don't wait to book the VIP.
(05:08):
Tickets sold out almost immediately,but still,
we have a limited numberof remaining tickets that are still great.
Both days you get to go to.
We're going to feed you on those days.
Visit Spiro.media.
Click the Spiro Sync button to find outthe full list of, who, what, when,
where, and why, and then you can bookyour ticket from the website.
(05:31):
Let's get again. Going to be a great time.
I'm looking forward to that. Yeah.
So that's it for me, Craig.
Let's, you know, it's great.
We saw this, suggested quite a bitin the comments and also in emails.
So if you if you have a topic,please let us know.
Hello@spiro.media or just if you'reon YouTube you can post in the comments.
(05:51):
But we are here to bring you valueand enough of you said, hey,
let's talk about hiring and it'svery fitting this time of the year.
Craig.
It is, it is.
And I you know, we'vewe've faced a little bit of a challenge
hiring ourselvesas a particularly in my market,
where I'm currentlythe only photographer and videographer.
(06:11):
And it is
it has been a challengeto finding somebody,
either qualified or interestedor schedule works out for them.
Doesn't work.
You know, it's hiring why
Let's let's ask the first question.
Why does it seem hiring is soI don't want to say hard, but challenging.
(06:33):
Yeah, it's a great question, Craig.
You know, when you look at hiring,I, I think that the available
working markethas has slimmed down a little bit.
And I think that you havesome people stuck in between
and between jobs or sizes of careers.
And for us, we are looking at we're tryingwho do we attract.
(06:57):
Right.
Like do we attract creativesthat know how to shoot real estate media?
Well, it's a niche market.
Like how how many people,you know, more people know how to shoot
real estate media in 2025 than in 2004when I started, you know?
But still, it's not like you'reputting out a post.
They're not teaching this in school.
So do you go to getdo you go to creative then?
(07:20):
Are you trying to pull them from weddingsand babies and families
or creating corporate videosor customer services are really big.
It's probably the biggeraspect of our job, right?
Craig?
So do they hire somebody that expands?
Yeah,
yeah.
I you know, it's one of those thingswhere I think
(07:42):
there's an e for real estate photography.
there's an eye for real estate photography.
I've had realtors tell me you'veyou've got the eye for it Craig.
I'm like, well that's great, butpart of that is developed and cultivated
by the training that I went through.
Yeah.
There is some certainly some natural,you know, talent people can have for it.
But I'm convinced that a large part of,
(08:04):
success in being a real estatephotographer,
is the customer service,the interpersonal skills.
And maybe that's my sales,
you know, business development bias.
But I, I firmly believe people buyfrom people they know, like and trust and,
and we've probably all heardthat phrase, but,
(08:27):
I don't know, I've seen some photographersthat, that have that and do very well
in some that don't.
And the realtor doesn't relateto the photographer nearly as well.
And really, I think this is a team effortthe realtor has to see.
Their photographer is, a trusted close
team member that they can say,this is my photographer.
There's like some ownershipthat the realtor feels in having
(08:50):
a particular individual be part of theirteam in front of the seller.
Yeah for sure.
Let's let's breakthat down a little bit, Craig.
The psychology of that.
So if you are looking at hiring,
then at some point and maybe
right nowyour clients are used to only you.
Yeah.
(09:11):
So that is a hurdle.
And there's ways to get over that.And it's part of growth.
But if your clients are used to youand you have the relationship,
you know that Craig made a pointthat's so important
then that is something
that you have to pass offin train to your photographer.
(09:31):
Also, I you know,
I look back over the years and
when I shot houses
and I haven't shot a housefor a very long time
when I shot houses.
And I'm not saying this to boost my ego,I don't know if I literally got
one complaint
now. It'snot because my media was spectacular.
(09:55):
Like, if I look back at my mediafrom 10 or 15 years ago,
I cringe.
It's bad, like it's evolved a lotsince then, but I'm like, oh my.
Like I used to angle down on rooms.
Craig
yeah, yeah yeah.
There's, you know, I,I would I'm six, I'm six foot seven.
(10:16):
You I'd put the camera above my headand pointed down.
I thought it was a cool view.
And nobody complained about it.
You know what?
Because you're
I was it was bad stuff.
But they all.
I had the relationship with them.
They trusted me. Yep.
And that is one thing
(10:36):
that we have some we've had somereally great photographers over the years.
Like really good eye,technical photographers that
don't speak or don't
have good enoughcustomer service in a property.
And we get feedback from themthat they were rude.
Yes. Or they seem so thatthat's kind of the tone that we get
(10:59):
and that I think that shows that
if your clients, the agentsand their client,
the homeowner, if they leave feeling wild,
feeling warm,
they don't care so much about the photos,
they're less apt
to point and say,where was this photo? You didn’t
(11:22):
Take that, or this is not as steadyas it could be, or I want more contrast
because
they have theythey feel good about the person.
They don't make them
maybe don't want to hurt their feelingsor oh, it's good enough.
And then they don't try to nitpick it.
And we've had cases
before where the agent hasnot had a good customer
(11:46):
service experience at the propertywith our photographer,
and they just nitpicked the crap
out of that set of images.
And I looked at him.
There's nothing wrong with them,
but we just know at that pointthe damage has already been done.
Like we would just sendanother photographer out there.
They would take the same exact photosand the realtor be happy with them.
(12:10):
So would you say in hiring?
Is the first thing you're looking for?
Personality and customer service.
Communication over for the creative side.
For us it is Craig 100%.
So we want to take ourour first core value.
Wow. As clients are our numberone priority.
So we have to align with that.
(12:31):
We have to hire photographersthat have that
as a core valueand want to take care of the clients.
We can teach them all the photo and video.
We've got a phenomenal videoseries and curriculum
that will walk somebody throughknowing nothing to taking very good
photo, video and drone, okay, 3D,all this stuff.
So we're confident about that,
(12:53):
that we can do that.
Just as a side note here, shameless plug,if you are interested in that.
I've said that enough
and enough of you have said, hey,wait a minute, can I have this?
Like, can I, can I buy this?Can I have access?
Can I find out more about what you havefor your video curriculum?
We are looking athow we can get that to you.
(13:15):
What's relevant to you?
If you could just email ushello@spiro.media
and let me know you're looking for that.
I'll put you in contact with Steve who'sspearheading that at Wow,
but that has been a huge resource for usbecause we if I look
at some of our best photographers,one of them came from as a factory worker.
(13:35):
Yes. The other one worked in,
customer service management,
where they were eitherbartenders or waiters,
and they are our best photographersbecause they walk in
and they can just carry on a conversation.
They can make people feel warm.
But in our in our training that we havefor more the creative and technical side,
you know, how, what angles to take,how many to take.
(13:57):
You know, all of that.
The one thing I don't think we haveis, is the customer
service side, how to interact.
So when I have, when I've trainedor had people shadow me up in my market,
I approach it from the businessdevelopment side
because the challenge I've run intois exactly what you referred to earlier.
Todd.
People get used to you doing their photosand they develop that relationship
(14:21):
and then they don't want anybody else.
And that's been part of my challenge,is getting realtors comfortable
with somebody besides mebecause I'm I'm at capacity.
I can't take on any additional clients,
and I need some of my current clientsto be able to trust another photographer.
That'spart of our team and part of our system,
so that I can have some time freed up.
(14:42):
Right?
So when I've had people shadow me,
I approach it from from the businessdevelopment side
and I'll, I'll share with themhow to how to talk
with the realtor, how to interactwith the with the seller, helping them
understand you're part of that Realtorsteam when you're on this appointment.
Yes, you're part of wow video tours,but you're part of X Realtors.
(15:04):
You know, team and you represent them.
Your your job is to try and help them winmore listings.
So anything you can do to put yeah.
Like you saida good feeling into that seller
when that seller's asked by a friend
or a family member, hey,who did you use to sell your house?
They're going to think of that realtor
(15:25):
in, in that realtor will get that referralin that that lead in.
When another listing. So if you can,
embed yourself as part of
that Realtorsmarketing team as a photographer,
that that's the thingI'm trying to instill in any new members
that we have as part of our team
is that you're not just a photographeror a creative.
Yeah, you've got a great eye.
(15:46):
You take beautiful pictures,but it's more the job is more of that.
So you've got to look for that naturalbent and then cultivate that, grow it.
Give them those little tips,tips and tricks that you've
developed over the years to buildsuch a like, good clientele.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Now we don't want to scare youand think that hiring is not worth it
(16:07):
because,oh no, no, it definitely it definitely is.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, there'schallenges to anything
and there are challenges to hiring.
And we're going to jump into those soon.
But I just want to make the point thatbecause I think it's important for you
all as owners out there to getthis was tough for me.
So I want toI want to share this with you.
(16:29):
When I was doing all of the photography,
I was maybe doing 15k, 20K a month, okay.
And it was just me andI didn't have to deal with any complaints.
I knew every one of my clients like,
I felt like I gave stellar
customer service,like I wowed them every time,
(16:50):
but and and then when I hired,
we lost some of the clients
that loved Todd. So.
And that was hard.
I've got a name that comes to mind,
Rhonda, and I won't say her last name,
but I had worked so hard to get Rhondaand she had a great relationship
(17:13):
with her current photographer at the time,and I had called.
I'd stop by.
I'd sent things I wanted to get Rhonda.
She was a top,
probably five agent at a new companythat I was not really embedded in.
And her photographer went on vacation
and her photographerdidn't have backup photographers.
(17:35):
And you know who was there?
I was, and I happened to shoot the home
of her builder that they were livingin their personal home. Wow.
So not only so, Rhonda was at the shoot,
and not only was Rhonda the shoot,but the homeowners as the builder
who builds a lot of housesand Rhonda sells them was at the shoot.
(17:59):
And Craig, you know what?
I thought my jokes were good that day.
My my hair was put togetherlike I was on it,
like, I like I I'm sorry, this is my ego.
But I knocked this one out of the park,like there.
Like I just had it.Like I was like, I still got it.
And Rhonda shot every property with me
(18:20):
after that property.
And I was proud of it.
Like, I was hat like I was happy about it.
And then honestly, when wewhen I brought Ryan on
as our next in linephotographer, Ryan was better than me.
His jokes are better, his hair is better.
He's got more of a hard part.
These fancy glasses,he was just better than me.
(18:42):
And she was good with him too.
But when we grew beyond myself and Ryan,
that's when
she just wanted that personal relationship
and I had to be okay with it.
It hurt like I cry a little tear
at nightevery once in a while because of it,
(19:04):
because I worked so hardto get that relationship.
And she does a lot of listings, but
if I wanted to get
another 1000 agents,
I had to be okay losing Rhonda.
And I just want to make that pointto all of you
that you are going to lose some clients,not all of them.
(19:27):
You're going to lose a small percentof clients because they are used to you.
And the 20K that I was doing back then,
it was myself and maybe Ryan
pales no comparison to the 350K a monthwe do now.
Okay, so this is part of growing you.
You are going to change clientsthat found you
(19:50):
attractive in a business senseat your stage
now versus 30 some photographers,they're different.
And you're going to lose some people.
So you just have to get over that.
There's no easy way about it.
So that's hard.
That was part of my problemtoo, is when I hired
my first photographer,when I had, you know, had my business,
(20:14):
I the feedback I would get is
he's a nice guy, but he's he's quiet.
He's not you.
And and they would they would saythe pictures aren't quite as good
and I'd look at them.
I'm like, this is exactly how I wouldshoot the photos.
But it boiled down to that relationship.
So yeah, if you can,if you can train people
(20:35):
when you hire them and see that potentialfor great relationship building
and in that photographerand bring that out of them,
I think you can mitigatesome of that loss.
Probably. Yeah.
Yeah, you can for sure.
And you can grow bigger than you've everwould have grown.
Yeah.
With where you're at now is part ofit is being the owner.
(20:56):
You have to kill a little bit of your egoand get over those lost relationships.
Oh, let me,
Yeah.
Oh, it's that's horrible.
Oh, I got it.
Yes, yes.
100% struck a nerve there, Oh my ego.
(21:16):
Oh, my chest for a second.
Yes, you do.
And that is hard because youyou worked hard
to build those relationshipsand you don't want to let them go.
Okay.
All right, all right.
But the thing is,and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.
One quick point is that.
(21:39):
And I'm talking on this in Vegas this week
if you're here, but you get intowhat's called the owner trap.
When your ego is largerthan what it should be,
you get into the owner trapwhere everything revolves around you.
There was a point in my businessthat wow was Todd, and Todd was wow.
(22:01):
I can't tell youhow many real estate agents I am in there.
Phone is Todd. Wow.
Yeah, yeah, there is no difference.
You call Todd,you get wow, you call. Wow. That's Todd.
And when you grow
to enough agents,that becomes overwhelming
and you are going to drop the ball,you're going to forget things
(22:22):
and you are going to wonderwhy you backed yourself into a job.
I did it, I did it for many years.
That's a new did it multiple times.
That's an interesting phrase.You just said.
Can you expand on that a little bit?
You backed yourself into a job.
Yeah, because,
(22:42):
well, we all start our businessbecause we don't want to work for a boss
we hate, or we want to have thewe want to have the freedom
to own something,or we're taking the leap of faith
to create somethingthat our kids can have.
And if you do it the wrong way,
(23:02):
you're getting into this owner trapor you're in the corner where you are
tied to nothing more than a jobbecause everything revolves around you
and you have to do everything.
And then you go,I use this analogy in my presentation.
You hang out with your good friends
(23:23):
on Friday evening.
And you sit in their garagewhen everybody's happy and smiling
and telling storiesand you have nothing to say, hey,
and it still strikes a chord with mebecause
I remember sitting in this location.
These were best friends of ours,
(23:45):
and I sat thereand I couldn't think anything except work.
I had nothing to add.
I couldn't ask some of my best friends
how they are, how they are, how's life?
How are their kids?
Because I was so trapped in my business
and I thought everythinghad to revolve around me,
(24:07):
and I didn't know how to get out, y'all,I really didn't.
It took help from a lot of people,but I was so trapped down in a deep, dark,
well and I had some really bad thoughtairs in my head,
and it took a lot of years to beginto reshape those and reshape the team.
And I don't want that for you all,I really don't.
I want you to build a healthy business.
(24:28):
You have to rely on other people,and part of rely on other people means
that it's not youthat does it, which is a great thing.
But those small percentage of clients
that have to have you are goingto go find someone else. Hey,
you got to protect your own
personal margin,is what I'm hearing and thinking.
(24:50):
Yes, 100%.
Craig.
There are two booksthat are coming to mind,
and I'm blanking on the on the exact name,the names of them,
but I think one of them is boundaries,or it's something about boundaries.
I have to look it up.
I'll put it in the notes.
If I find the final name of the booksthat talk about that specifically.
(25:13):
So, yeah.
Great. Okay.
Okay. Let's jump into the particularsbecause we have.
Yeah.
We've got we want to help youwith the particulars as well.
So so what might my questionI think the question that's
at the top of most of these people'sminds and guys,
forgive me of if I've assumed wrong,but what are the specific challenges
(25:35):
that owners are finding in hiringphotographers?
So photographers specifically, what
what are the roadblocks to to finding themand getting them on board?
What would you say?
I've got a couple in the back of my head,but what about you?
Yeah.
So if the first is like,oh, this is kind of scary.
I don't know, like, what is hiring?
(25:55):
Are they a contractoror they a W-2 employee.
Like, what do I have to do?
Like I'm just used to doing my own thingand I know what I do with taxes
and I file this way, but like now,someone else is going to depend on me.
And that's a that's a heavy
that's a not a burden.
But that's a, that's a greatthat's heavy required responsibility.
(26:16):
Thank you Craig. Yeah.
And so I did this I,
I just naturally when I startedI was scared of that. And
please hiring an employee is not scary.
It's actually very simple.
There are regulations.
There's regulationsbetween a contractor, an employee.
And I'm going to go over both of those.
And I'm going to tell you prosand cons of both of them.
(26:39):
So all of our photographers at Wow,
except for two are contractors,1099 contractors,
because we want to go look for peoplewho have their own business
that are looking for work.
Monday through Friday, and
then fill it inwith some of their own work.
(27:02):
So these are people that are doingmaybe some corporate video
on the weekends or gigs come on Saturdayswhen weddings are all right.
Also bartenders,
they might have another joband they're looking to freelance.
Okay.
A lot of our people are crehave some ex of creativeness
where they do something music, photo,
(27:22):
video art, something creative,and this happens to fit in.
And I did that because immediatelyI was like,
I don't want to hire employees.
I was like, this is kind of really scary.
It's not.
But the thing about being a
and contractor employeeand I'm not an attorney.
Also, please
(27:42):
consult an attorney in your statebecause this is a little bit different,
but it all comes down to control.
Do you have control over that individual.
So for our photographers, they remainthey retain all control.
They tell us when they want to work.
(28:02):
They have the ability to not take a job.
They tell us what they chargefor a service.
We have an agreement on aon a pay scale for them.
They they can invoice us for a fee
that pertains to a jobthat might not be normal.
Okay.
So that is their business
invoicing our business,and we lose some control as to where
(28:26):
if a photographer doesn'twant to go to a job,
say, in a far out city or outlier,as we call them,
they can say no to it, and then it's on us
to try to either finda different contractor that will go or
compensatethem, come up with some agreement
for compensation that they say, yes,this is a job I want to take.
(28:48):
Okay. So we lose that as a company.
Now, on the flip side, as an employee,
you are going to tell your employeewhere to go and when to work,
and you're going to pay them for that timeand their expenses.
And you have control.
So if an employeedoes not want to go to the far city,
then they are somewhat being insubordinateand then of your request
(29:12):
and you need to pay themto go to that city.
And so do you see everythingkind of boils down to the same.
Like if you send an employee to a far out
city,you're just compensating for this time.
And probably if a contractor doesn'twant to go out to the far out city,
they're seeing it not worth their time.
But it all comes down to control.
Do you want the control of doing that?
(29:34):
And we find with us atWow that we are okay with our 30
some photographers keeping their control,and we feel like it's a good relationship
because we need to be attractive to themso that they want to take jobs.
And in the same sense,they want to be attractive to us
so that we have the ability to say,hey, we have jobs for you.
(30:01):
When when a
potential contractoris talking with you, it
and they ask guaranteed incomeor guaranteed
number of jobs, what's your response.
How do you handle that.
Yeah I was askedI found that to be a sticking point.
Yeah. Nothing is guaranteed.
This is the nothing is guaranteed
(30:25):
as you have enough availabilityand you keep your schedule open
and you accept jobs.
The more jobs you accept, the more moneyyou'll make.
The higher skills that you have,the more you will make per job.
Now we do show them, hey,
an average contractorthat accepts this many jobs.
(30:46):
This is about what your.
This is aboutthe fees that you would make.
So we try to paint the picture for themand connect the dots.
Because againthey're coming into an industry
that they don't have a lot of knowledge.
We're still a very niche industry,with real estate photography.
And they're coming inand they might not completely understand
(31:06):
some of the business logic and the workings of just how it's going to pan out.
Sure.
Okay.
How do you handle questions of,
specific equipmentthat's needed for the job?
What if what if they don't have the gearthat's needed for photos,
video, drone, 360 tours, things like that?
(31:29):
How what what does the conversationlook like with a potential hire for that?
Yeah.
So with contractorsthey have to have that equipment.
So think of a contractor.
There's housesbeing built in my neighborhood right now.
Somebody digging a foundationlike I can't hire a foundation guy
if he does not have a backhoe.
Sure. He's not coming.
(31:50):
Hey, will you rent me a back?
No. Like, that's why I hired you.
You need to have your own equipment.
Now, I will say
that we do help them facilitate
getting their own equipmentwith our contractors.
That if they have to buyall of their own own equipment
and sometimes having enough moneyupfront to purchase all of the equipment
(32:14):
can be limiting.
And we don't want that to be limiting.
So we have a program wherewe will purchase the equipment for them.
They sign a contract with us.
They agree that they're going to payfor 100% of that equipment
over 24 months.
We charge zero interestand they put a credit card on file
(32:37):
that we charge every month for thatpayment,
say, okay.
Now, in contrast,if you're hiring employees,
you are buying all of that equipmentand supplying it to them.
Right.
And the flip side is and we haven'ttalked a lot about employees, I,
(32:57):
I think an employee route is six of onehalf dozen of another.
It it really is with an employee.
You're buying that equipment.
You're you're paying them less per job and
and equivalents because now you are payingfor all of that.
You're supplying everything they need.
You're coveringmore time on site if they need it.
(33:21):
Okay.
I know another questionI've seen come through is how do I pay?
What's the pay structure?Am I paying them?
Like an hourly rate or is it a per
job or a, you know, is it like a salary?
Which would get weirdif it's a contractor.
So questions ofhow do you compensate for a contractor?
(33:42):
I mean, obviously we know howwe compensate for an employee, but,
how do you compensate contractors? What?
Yeah. That structure.
Yeah.
So with contractors, they get paid pereach service that they perform.
So if they do photos, they get X.
If they do video, they get Y.
If they do drone, they get Z.
And that all adds together.
(34:04):
And that's whatthey essentially invoice us for that job.
So it doesn't matter square footageor how long the job takes.
You know, it's not an hourly rateor a size rate, it's just an hourly rate.
But because a job is largerwith a larger home,
then those rates do increase for them.
Okay okay.
(34:25):
So you have a because the job is bigger.
Yes. Yeah. Got it okay. Good stuff.
I'm trying to think of other thingsI've seen come through.
How where do you find potential candidatesas contractors or employees.
How how do we advertise for openingsthat we have needs that we have.
(34:45):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm going to let me clarifyone thing on the last question real quick,
because I want to give you the,the comparison, between the two. So
I am not saying because we use contractorsthat you should use contractors.
I think that this is probablya good discussion to have with an attorney
and an accountant in your area,and really, neither are that difficult.
(35:08):
There's just a checklistwith each that you need to abide by.
Okay, so with a contractoryou have to make sure they retain control.
You have to make sure they have insurance.
You have to make sure like we make surethat they are actively advertising their
services, not real estate photography,but they're advertising their services.
Maybe shooting weddings,families, babies doing artwork.
(35:32):
We've we have found thatthat is an important thing, that they are
a business they're advertising out there,even if it's just on social media.
Okay.
So there's a check there.
Yeah. And we found that out the hard way.
We were audited one year and it came back.
And that was one thingthey looked at like, hey, show me that
(35:52):
this person, actually somebody elsecan hire them for something else.
And so we had to go and we would show,hey, here's their Facebook
page, here'stheir website, here's their publication.
And that was a determining factor, becausewhen you're their only source of income,
at least Ohio doesn't like seeing that
because you ultimately control them.
(36:14):
So we changed a few things.
Just like if you are your own business,a contractor, you have insurance, okay.
That that is a big thingthat contractors have.
You have,
you have your own equipment,
you advertise your services,you have a EAI in,
(36:35):
and you don't use your socialas your business name.
So all of these things tiein to a contractor versus employee.
For those of you that might not be aware,EIN employer
identification number correct?
Correct. Yes.
It's it just it's a process
you have to go through with your stateto say, hey, I'm a business.
This is my business name.
(36:56):
And then you get a number assignedto the business.
Perfect, perfect.
Let me let me contrast that. Sorry.
This is a long point,but I want to make it
because this is actually a very simple oneversus the other.
If you want to hire employees,what we find people are pain
is people are typically are payingstarting at the $25 an hour range.
(37:18):
And as that employee then
becomes certified with video and drone,
we see a lot of companies having successand bumping them up to $30 an hour.
And again,
you might have to correlate thisto your market,
but 25 30 and then we see
(37:41):
that people that other companiesare bumping them up to 35.
Then when that
photographer becomes more of what you calla lead photographer or trainer.
So when you can depend on thatphotographer helping on board,
give feedback, train new photographers.
That's we are seeing a lot of companies
bump them up to 35and they make more per hour.
(38:04):
Make sense.
So that is and this is essentiallywhat we do at Wow to with contractors.
Contractors over the years say, hey,I used to charge you X for photography
and I've been doing this for X,I've been doing this for five years.
Like I'm going to charge youx plus y. Okay.
So rates go up. This is natural.
(38:25):
It happens with contractorsand photographers.
But I don't want you to be scared ofothers of of either.
Just make an informed decision ofdo you ultimately want control
or are you okay knowing that thethat the individual has control?
Got it,
got it.
Okay.
All right.
So let's go to that question of thenhow do you find people to hire.
(38:49):
Yes. So we have trieda lot of different ways
and we have success with indeed.
Okay.
Just where we really have successthat we find that it gets enough,
it makes enough of a splash
out there that we get good enoughapplicants and city to city, we find that
Craig's market, fortunately for us,is just the most difficult we have.
(39:13):
We have a lot of successin all of the other cities.
And it's that guy in that market.
He's just impossible to work with,I tell you.
Yeah.
We need to talk about thaton your grade card episode,
So we go to.
Indeed.
And we find that there isthere is some secret sauce
(39:36):
or the ability to get betterin the way you post a job.
Okay, so posting a job,you want to be clear about what it is.
And you also need to entice them to wantto look at the job and consider the job.
We find that
having custom questions on the indeed jobpost is very helpful.
(39:57):
Okay.
I stole this from Colleen Kydd.
She they have a process where she has
custom questions,and she asks them to do a video.
Okay?
A video of themselves.
Because us connectingwith that individual.
Super important.
Remember, we talked a lot in this showabout just the personality
(40:17):
of the photographer.
Like,if we can cross that off with yes or no
at the beginning by seeing them faceto face on a camera, how do they interact?
Do they speak well?
Are they personable?
Are they upbeat in the video?
If they don't do the video,
then they're not reallythat interested in the job right?
So you have to have a good mixof trying to entice them, but also
(40:41):
trying to weed enough of them outbecause you don't want to call 100 people.
It's if you get to the finish line
and you realize one thing about a person
that disqualifies them for the job,
you've essentially wasted all of that timeand you have to restart the process.
(41:05):
Yeah.
Good stuff.
Colleges, universities,great places to advertise as well.
I'm imagining.
Yeah.
And actually we have we have a potentiallead here in my market.
And it was somebody that heardabout our opening through their,
their college advisor.
(41:26):
And, he reached out to meand we had a great sit down yesterday,
in fact, and, or. No, two days ago.
And so that's that's another option.
Contact your local universities,community colleges,
you know that there's potential candidatesthere as well.
Yeah, they love they love businesses
that are looking to hire collegegraduates.
(41:47):
So please contact them.
They will persist for you.
They will connect people with you.
And that serves them well, servesthe graduate well and serves you well.
So reach out to them, put it onthose boards, connect with those people.
And that's a good possibilityof candidates.
Beautiful.
All right.
Well, Todd, any closing thoughts?
(42:08):
We we had quite a few differentlittle points.
And I know this is
we could go on another hourtalking about how to hire people, but
hopefully this isthere's been some good nuggets here.
But any any final thoughts you have
just a couple.
Craig I think the biggest thing is,is when you want to hire.
I want you to take that extremelyseriously.
(42:29):
Hey, it's not a scary thing, but
for the good of the person,the good of you,
make sure you've thoughtabout the process.
Think aboutwhy would that person want to come in, and
do they feelthat they can grow with your company?
Or is this just going to be a job?
It is going to be very costly for youand you're going to
(42:53):
you're going to want to have the tendencyto think that you should stay solo.
If you hire someone
and they just churn oneafter the next three months, six months,
it's painful
for everyone involved,including your clients.
It's not the best thingthat your clients see.
A whole lot of faces.
(43:15):
So there is a ton of value
in finding the right personpaying someone.
Well, that was one thing that I thinkas I started,
I tried to find someonewho would do it for cheap.
Okay.
And one of my favorite people's
court judge Milian quotes
sometimes that cheap ends up expensive.
(43:38):
Yeah.
So please don't try to pinch pennies.
Do have a conversation with an attorneyor your accountant or a business owner.
This is an important thing that will helpyou grow.
Remember, my 20K a month does not compareto the 350K a month.
It's a good thingand you're going to screw it up fine.
(44:00):
I just close with this.You're going to screw it up.
And when
you screwit up, you should go to the employee
or the contractorand tell them you screwed something up.
Apologize to them, ask them how they feel.
What could you change to try
to get through this screw up
(44:22):
no matter what it is?
Maybe it'sjust you don't connect with them enough.
Maybe they feel likethey don't have a relationship.
Maybe you didn't train them well enough.
You're going to doall of those things bad.
I screwed all of them up in times ten.
But as you slowly learn and you document
the process, you will get the hang of it.
And it is the best thing ever.
Because now, 21 years,almost 22 years in the wow,
(44:47):
I don't know if any of our new clientseven know who I am.
I don't know if any of our new clientsin the last five years even know who I am.
And that's a
powerfulthing because I show up on Friday nights
now with friends,and I'm not an owner trap.
And it's because I've leaned on a team,I've empowered a team, we've grown a team,
(45:12):
we've taken care of a team,and they are taking care of me.
A great way to end, a great way to end.
The owner trap.
I look forward to hearing more on that.at REPP.
It's going to be good.
Yeah, looking forward to it.
All right.
Well, guys,hopefully that was helpful to you.
Feel free
to post some comments on the YouTubechannel if you have further questions.
(45:33):
We'll, we'll try and answerthose as best we can.
Feel free to drop us an email.
Hello@spiro.media.
But like Todd said, talk with an attorney,a business coach,
somebody that can mentor youa little bit more hands on and personally
on that and, helpyou set up for, for some good success.
(45:53):
Todd.
Thank you. Appreciate it. My pleasure.
All right. Well,you guys have a great week.
Make sure you take some time to bethankful as we are heading into.
Well, yeah, we're we're in November now.
Season of Thanksgiving here in the US.
Already celebrated Thanksgiving in Canada.
So happy belated Thanksgiving to ourCanadian brethren and sister in up there.
(46:16):
But yeah, just take some timeto be thankful, for your blessings
and make sure you take some timeto breathe. Have a great week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.