September 11, 2023 • 9 mins
Katie Wolf Whaley is in the studio to discuss Employment First, a policy stating competitive employment should be the first and primary option for people with disabilities.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Patti] Welcome to the State of HDI, a Universityof Kentucky Human Development Institute podcast.
With me in the studio is Katie Wolf Whaley,Principal Investigator of the Supported Employment
Training Project, President of Kentucky APSE,former board member of the National APSE,
(00:21):
and chair of the Kentucky Employment FirstCouncil.
Katie, welcome.
[Katie] Thanks.
It's good to be here.
So, your credentials are amazing. [Laughs]
And you have so many connections to the employmentof people with disabilities, tell me what
Employment First means to you.
[Katie] So, Employment First means that employmentis the first and primary option for people
(00:47):
with disabilities of working age who wantto go to work, that when we are looking at
publicly funded services for people, we lookat employment before we look at other ways
to spend one's day, just like most people,most adults in our society do.
[Patti] Makes so much sense.
So where did Employment First start?
[Katie] It started as a philosophy.
(01:08):
Historically, employment rates for peoplewith disabilities have been staggeringly low.
For decades and decades, the unemploymentrate for people with disabilities has been
right around double that of people withoutdisabilities.
And a lot of that was because just as a society,people didn't understand the capabilities
and gifts and skills and talents that peoplewith disabilities have, and that they could
(01:30):
work in typical businesses with everybodyelse and be successful.
And so, the system created other ways forpeople to spend their day where they would
be safe and protected and have somewhere togo and perhaps something to do.
And over time, people realized, folks haveso much more to offer than we had thought.
And people were getting jobs - getting goodjobs - there were plenty of examples of folks,
(01:53):
even with significant disabilities, gettinggood jobs.
But the system wasn't set up to one - presumethat people could work - and that's what they'd
want to do.
And even if they did want a job, the systemwasn't set up to have that be that first and
primary option.
And so, it began as a philosophy of Oh, mygosh, people can do so much more than we think.
And we are kind of suppressing people's potentialand their income potential in this way.
(02:20):
And then people started fighting for the rightto be able to go to work to be included in
the community.
And there's lots of history of - as this podcasthas talked about - History of Disability Rights
in our society, and employment became a partof that.
And so, this idea of Employment First, thatwe had to make it really clear that employment
(02:40):
be the first and primary option.
Because when we aren't crystal clear aboutthat, it's always backed down as, “Oh, yeah,
maybe we'll help you get to that when you'reready, or when we get around to it or can
find someone that can help you.”
And so that's where Employment First camefrom.
And then it started to become policy and regulationand executive order and law to make that priority
(03:01):
clear.
That this has to be the way things are done.
There are now over 40 states that have a formalexecutive order or legislation that employment
be that first and primary option for peoplewho desire to become employed.
[Patti] I love that.
And just the idea that yes, it should be theexpectation.
All right, so you said 40 states have EmploymentFirst as their official rule, and that includes
(03:28):
Kentucky.
[Katie] It does include Kentucky.
So, we got an executive order that was signedby former Governor Bevin in May of 2018.
The executive order was renewed and signedagain in 2020 by Governor Beshear.
And then in March of 2022, it was passed asstate law in Kentucky with that priority statement
(03:50):
for employment being the first and primaryoption, both the executive order and then
the law also had the Employment First Council,which is charged to make sure that happens,
because it takes a lot of change, and it'sa big shift.
[Patti] So how does HDI fit into this?
[Katie] That's a great question.
So, HDI has had employment as one of its priorities.
(04:14):
And when the executive order was first signed,the Council was established.
And HDI is one of the required entities tohave a representative on the council.
And then for those first four years whilethe council was under Executive Order, HDI
also served as the administrator of the council.
(04:36):
[Patti] That's great.
And then can you share some of the successesthat you've seen since?
[Katie] Sometimes it's hard to point to tangible successes.
I think getting the word out and really tryingto be intentional around raising those expectations
has been a big thing that has happened, andit's brought all of these different entities
on the council together.
(04:56):
Again, to have to talk about employment thatthat's the priority, I spend a lot of my time
all of my time thinking about disability employment,because those are all the issues that surround
my work here at HDI and I've have been honoredto be the HDI representative on the council.
A lot of the people on the council of employmentis part of what they do or what their agency
(05:18):
does as their representation.
So, this brings all of those different policymakers,decision makers, leaders, representative of
different interest groups and people, includingpeople with disabilities and family members
together to have to focus on employment, andwhat's it going to take for things to get
better?
Who do we need to talk to?
Who do we need to reach out to?
And really look at what are the policies inthese different state agencies in public education?
(05:44):
And where do families get their information?
And how can we really address policies anddisincentives that exist out there?
Because there are - that keep people fromworking - and then how do we get good information
into the hands of folks with disabilitiesand their family members and their own support
systems to realize this is a much more viableoption than maybe we thought it was.
(06:05):
[Patti] Okay, and can you tell me a little bit aboutProject NEON?
I know when were talking before the podcast,that was one that you really felt was - had
been successful.
[Katie] Yeah.
So, project NEON stands for something.
And it's an ODEP initiative, which is theOffice of Disability Employment Policy, which
is part of the Federal Department of Labor.
(06:27):
And NEON has existed in different forms toprovide states technical assistance around
increasing competitive integrated employment.
And this last year, Kentucky applied to bea project NEON state and was accepted.
And then has partnered with the EmploymentFirst Council very closely and the Public
Policy Committee of the Employment First Councilto take specific policies and regulations
(06:52):
in different state agencies to say, “thisis what Employment First means that employment
is that first and primary option.”
What do the regulations for, for example,some of the HCB Medicaid waivers, some of
the education policies, how is your policywritten?
How is it funded?
What are the priorities in there?
(07:14):
And how does that align with Employment First,or where are there gaps?
And being really intentional and having arubric and going through those policies together,
to see where it doesn't align really in alot of cases, and then what can be done about
that.
It's one thing to say, “oh, we need policyand regulation change, and we need to shift
our funding systems.”
That is an enormous task, the NEON processhas really helped us target in on at least
(07:41):
starting with a handful of few key policiesto see okay, here's the specifics of where
it mentions it and where it doesn't.
So that we can make recommendations clearand specific recommendations for change of
this language or the way this is done or theway the agencies collaborate, it's too easy
to get lost, right, to go from VR to the IDDsystem.
(08:05):
It makes sense when I talk about how the systemshould work, it doesn't always make sense
to real people who are living in this system.
And so those are the kinds of things thatwe're trying to identify, so that if we can
make clear recommendations that were morelikely to see potential for change, because
changing systems is hard.
[Patti] Well, Katie, I really appreciate you takingthe time to sit down with us.
(08:27):
Do you have anything that you'd like to sayin closing,
[Katie] I think one of the other key pieces of EmploymentFirst is, we’re HDI, of course, it's looking
at people with disabilities and the opportunitiesthey have and the systems that support them.
But it's very much a two sided issue.
Because if we don't talk about workforce development,we're absolutely missing the point.
It's one thing to support someone well andfigure out what they have to offer and how
(08:49):
to help them find a job.
But we have to talk about workforce developmentand to make sure that when we talk about the
labor crisis in our state, people with disabilitiesare seen as a key staffing strategy.
And that when workforce development is beingtalked about, people with disabilities are
a part of that conversation.
Not, "Oh, yeah, well, there's this other partB of the paragraph where we're supposed to
(09:11):
include this group", but really an integralconversation.
Because if employers don't get it and don'tsee that what people have to offer and understand
what resources and supports are out therefor people to be successful employees, they're
less likely to get jobs and so we have tobe talking both sides of the issue at the
same time.
[Patti] Well, Katie, thank you so much.
[Katie] Thank you!
[Patti] Welcome to the State of HDI, a Universityof Kentucky Human Development Institute podcast.
With me in the studio is Katie Wolf Whaley,Principal Investigator of the Supported Employment
Training Project, President of Kentucky APSE,former board member of the National APSE,
(00:21):
and chair of the Kentucky Employment FirstCouncil.
Katie, welcome.
[Katie] Thanks.
It's good to be here.
So, your credentials are amazing. [Laughs]
And you have so many connections to the employmentof people with disabilities, tell me what
Employment First means to you.
[Katie] So, Employment First means that employmentis the first and primary option for people
(00:47):
with disabilities of working age who wantto go to work, that when we are looking at
publicly funded services for people, we lookat employment before we look at other ways
to spend one's day, just like most people,most adults in our society do.
[Patti] Makes so much sense.
So where did Employment First start?
[Katie] It started as a philosophy.
(01:08):
Historically, employment rates for peoplewith disabilities have been staggeringly low.
For decades and decades, the unemploymentrate for people with disabilities has been
right around double that of people withoutdisabilities.
And a lot of that was because just as a society,people didn't understand the capabilities
and gifts and skills and talents that peoplewith disabilities have, and that they could
(01:30):
work in typical businesses with everybodyelse and be successful.
And so, the system created other ways forpeople to spend their day where they would
be safe and protected and have somewhere togo and perhaps something to do.
And over time, people realized, folks haveso much more to offer than we had thought.
And people were getting jobs - getting goodjobs - there were plenty of examples of folks,
(01:53):
even with significant disabilities, gettinggood jobs.
But the system wasn't set up to one - presumethat people could work - and that's what they'd
want to do.
And even if they did want a job, the systemwasn't set up to have that be that first and
primary option.
And so, it began as a philosophy of Oh, mygosh, people can do so much more than we think.
And we are kind of suppressing people's potentialand their income potential in this way.
(02:20):
And then people started fighting for the rightto be able to go to work to be included in
the community.
And there's lots of history of - as this podcasthas talked about - History of Disability Rights
in our society, and employment became a partof that.
And so, this idea of Employment First, thatwe had to make it really clear that employment
(02:40):
be the first and primary option.
Because when we aren't crystal clear aboutthat, it's always backed down as, “Oh, yeah,
maybe we'll help you get to that when you'reready, or when we get around to it or can
find someone that can help you.”
And so that's where Employment First camefrom.
And then it started to become policy and regulationand executive order and law to make that priority
(03:01):
clear.
That this has to be the way things are done.
There are now over 40 states that have a formalexecutive order or legislation that employment
be that first and primary option for peoplewho desire to become employed.
[Patti] I love that.
And just the idea that yes, it should be theexpectation.
All right, so you said 40 states have EmploymentFirst as their official rule, and that includes
(03:28):
Kentucky.
[Katie] It does include Kentucky.
So, we got an executive order that was signedby former Governor Bevin in May of 2018.
The executive order was renewed and signedagain in 2020 by Governor Beshear.
And then in March of 2022, it was passed asstate law in Kentucky with that priority statement
(03:50):
for employment being the first and primaryoption, both the executive order and then
the law also had the Employment First Council,which is charged to make sure that happens,
because it takes a lot of change, and it'sa big shift.
[Patti] So how does HDI fit into this?
[Katie] That's a great question.
So, HDI has had employment as one of its priorities.
(04:14):
And when the executive order was first signed,the Council was established.
And HDI is one of the required entities tohave a representative on the council.
And then for those first four years whilethe council was under Executive Order, HDI
also served as the administrator of the council.
(04:36):
[Patti] That's great.
And then can you share some of the successesthat you've seen since?
[Katie] Sometimes it's hard to point to tangible successes.
I think getting the word out and really tryingto be intentional around raising those expectations
has been a big thing that has happened, andit's brought all of these different entities
on the council together.
(04:56):
Again, to have to talk about employment thatthat's the priority, I spend a lot of my time
all of my time thinking about disability employment,because those are all the issues that surround
my work here at HDI and I've have been honoredto be the HDI representative on the council.
A lot of the people on the council of employmentis part of what they do or what their agency
(05:18):
does as their representation.
So, this brings all of those different policymakers,decision makers, leaders, representative of
different interest groups and people, includingpeople with disabilities and family members
together to have to focus on employment, andwhat's it going to take for things to get
better?
Who do we need to talk to?
Who do we need to reach out to?
And really look at what are the policies inthese different state agencies in public education?
(05:44):
And where do families get their information?
And how can we really address policies anddisincentives that exist out there?
Because there are - that keep people fromworking - and then how do we get good information
into the hands of folks with disabilitiesand their family members and their own support
systems to realize this is a much more viableoption than maybe we thought it was.
(06:05):
[Patti] Okay, and can you tell me a little bit aboutProject NEON?
I know when were talking before the podcast,that was one that you really felt was - had
been successful.
[Katie] Yeah.
So, project NEON stands for something.
And it's an ODEP initiative, which is theOffice of Disability Employment Policy, which
is part of the Federal Department of Labor.
(06:27):
And NEON has existed in different forms toprovide states technical assistance around
increasing competitive integrated employment.
And this last year, Kentucky applied to bea project NEON state and was accepted.
And then has partnered with the EmploymentFirst Council very closely and the Public
Policy Committee of the Employment First Councilto take specific policies and regulations
(06:52):
in different state agencies to say, “thisis what Employment First means that employment
is that first and primary option.”
What do the regulations for, for example,some of the HCB Medicaid waivers, some of
the education policies, how is your policywritten?
How is it funded?
What are the priorities in there?
(07:14):
And how does that align with Employment First,or where are there gaps?
And being really intentional and having arubric and going through those policies together,
to see where it doesn't align really in alot of cases, and then what can be done about
that.
It's one thing to say, “oh, we need policyand regulation change, and we need to shift
our funding systems.”
That is an enormous task, the NEON processhas really helped us target in on at least
(07:41):
starting with a handful of few key policiesto see okay, here's the specifics of where
it mentions it and where it doesn't.
So that we can make recommendations clearand specific recommendations for change of
this language or the way this is done or theway the agencies collaborate, it's too easy
to get lost, right, to go from VR to the IDDsystem.
(08:05):
It makes sense when I talk about how the systemshould work, it doesn't always make sense
to real people who are living in this system.
And so those are the kinds of things thatwe're trying to identify, so that if we can
make clear recommendations that were morelikely to see potential for change, because
changing systems is hard.
[Patti] Well, Katie, I really appreciate you takingthe time to sit down with us.
(08:27):
Do you have anything that you'd like to sayin closing,
[Katie] I think one of the other key pieces of EmploymentFirst is, we’re HDI, of course, it's looking
at people with disabilities and the opportunitiesthey have and the systems that support them.
But it's very much a two sided issue.
Because if we don't talk about workforce development,we're absolutely missing the point.
It's one thing to support someone well andfigure out what they have to offer and how
(08:49):
to help them find a job.
But we have to talk about workforce developmentand to make sure that when we talk about the
labor crisis in our state, people with disabilitiesare seen as a key staffing strategy.
And that when workforce development is beingtalked about, people with disabilities are
a part of that conversation.
Not, "Oh, yeah, well, there's this other partB of the paragraph where we're supposed to
(09:11):
include this group", but really an integralconversation.
Because if employers don't get it and don'tsee that what people have to offer and understand
what resources and supports are out therefor people to be successful employees, they're
less likely to get jobs and so we have tobe talking both sides of the issue at the
same time.
[Patti] Well, Katie, thank you so much.
[Katie] Thank you!
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