January 1, 2026 • 46 mins
What if the real reason we’re overwhelmed isn’t the volume of work we’re facing — but the fact we’ve lost sight of what really matters?
In this episode of Sticky From The Inside, Andy is joined by coach, author and founder of On The Up Consulting, Julia Wolfendale, to explore the rising tide of overwhelm affecting leaders, teams and everyday life. Julia has coached hundreds of leaders, and her book Five Ways to Focus feels more relevant than ever in a world that’s always on, overstimulated, and full of competing demands.
Together they unpack why overwhelm hits even the most capable people, how fear quietly drives busyness, and why we often underestimate our capacity while overestimating the workload ahead of us. Julia introduces her powerful Five Motivational Drivers: freedom, fulfilment, fellowship, finance and kudos; a simple lens that helps people understand what they’re really seeking, and what they should prioritise next.
If you’re feeling stretched, stuck or fizzing with that nervous-system overload Julia describes, this conversation offers a calm, practical reset. Five ideas. Five drivers. And a way of getting life and leadership back on the up.
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Key Takeaways- Overwhelm is less about volume and more about clarity. People often know what needs doing but lack the focus to start. Overwhelm grows when we lose sight of our capacity and what truly matters.
- Fear quietly drives busyness and self-worth gets tied to doing. Julia highlights how fear-based behaviour makes people equate being busy with being valuable, trapping them in cycles of overwork.
- The Five Motivational Drivers help us re-centre our priorities. Freedom, fulfilment, fellowship, finance and kudos offer a simple way to understand what you’re really seeking and why certain tasks feel heavy or draining.
- Time expands when we regain perspective and shrinks when overwhelmed. Julia’s Five Time Frames tool (2 hours, 24 hours, week, month, 3 months) helps recalibrate our sense of time and focus on what’s actually achievable.
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Key MomentsThe key moments in this episode are:
1:10 – Setting the Scene: Why Overwhelm Is Everywhere Today 3:53 – Meet Julia Wolfendale & Her Mission to Tackle Overwhelm 5:18 – The Overstimulated, Always-On World We’re Struggling to Navigate 8:28 – What Overwhelm Really Feels Like: Capacity, Volume & Nervous-System Load 11:39 – Fear, Busyness and the Self-Worth Trap 15:02 – Introducing the Five Motivational Drivers 20:59 – When Intentions Don’t Match Behaviour: Freedom vs Control 24:23 – How Overwhelm Warps Our Sense of Time 27:29 – Scheduling Everything: A Practical Way to Regain Focus 29:03 – Ideas vs Actions: The Two-List Clarity Tool 33:00 – Momentum, Micro-Actions and the Power of Breaking Things Down 43:59 – Julia’s Three Sticky Notes for Beating Overwhelm
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Join The Conversation Find Andy Goram on LinkedIn here Listen to the Podcast on YouTube here Follow the Podcast on Instagram here Follow the Podcast on Twitter here Follow the Podcast on Facebook here Check out the Bizjuicer website here Get a free consultation with Andy here Check out the Bizjuicer blog here Download the podcast here ----more---- Useful Links Follow Julia Wolfendale on LinkedIn here Find the On The Up Consulting website here ----more---- Full Episode TranscriptGet the full transcript of the episode here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, let's be honest, there is a lot of noise out there.
A slew of emails waiting for you, meetings, messages, expectations from others, deadlines to hit and that's just a work bit.
(01:25):
And then you throw in stuff like the kids, the school run, caring for others, trying to stay fit, remembering birthdays.
I am rubbish at that.
And maybe, if we're lucky, actually sit down and have a proper conversation with the person we live with.
And then suddenly life feels like one giant to-do list with no finish line in sight.
(01:48):
It's no wonder so many of us feel like we're running on empty, feeling like we're permanently switched on but rarely tuned in.
And it doesn't seem to matter who you are, whether you're leading a company, managing a team, or just trying to keep all the plates spinning at home, overwhelm doesn't discriminate.
(02:09):
My guest today knows this feeling all too well.
Julia Wolfendale is the founder and director of On The Up Consulting.
She's an accredited coach and the author of the brilliant book, Five Ways To Focus.
Deal with overwhelm, gain clarity and perspective to get things on the up.
Julia's coached hundreds of leaders on how to be their best selves and rediscover what really matters, not just in their careers but in their lives.
(02:38):
And recently, while revisiting her book, she had one of those light bulb moments we can all relate to.
And looking around at the pace of everything that was going on and the pressures of modern life, Julia realized this stuff is more true than ever.
Because the truth is, overwhelm doesn't care about your job title.
(03:01):
It hits high performers and self-starters just as hard as anyone else.
It's that meeting that overruns and squishes everything else.
The inbox that seemingly never empties.
The guilt of missing the school play or the quiet frustration that despite being constantly busy, we're not even sure if we're moving in the right direction or forward at all at times.
(03:26):
So in this episode, as we head into a moment where many of us are possibly rethinking what really matters, setting goals and maybe trying to declutter a bit of life, we're diving into Julia's five ways to focus.
Five simple, practical ideas to help us reset, regain perspective, and start getting life and leadership back on the up.
(03:50):
Julia, welcome to the show.
Hi Andy, thank you so much for having me on.
Loving, loving the fact that you're here.
I think if ever there was a time to have this sort of conversation, it's probably now.
I myself am feeling, I don't know, a little discombobulated.
I think there's a lot of stuff I know I want to do.
(04:12):
And at the same time, I've got a little bit of work in the background, but I still feel like there's not enough time to cope with it all.
And I can sit at my desk, feel like I'm absolutely sprinting.
At the end of it, look back and go, well, what did I actually achieve?
I'm not sure much.
So I need your help, Julia.
I'm sure there's plenty of people in the audience that are going to really resonate with some of the things that you're going to share with us today.
(04:35):
I hope, anyway.
I hope so too.
Before we kick off and get into all the meat and bones of the five drivers that you're going to talk about, just give us a little bit of a better introduction to you, what you do, and where your focus is right now.
(04:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Happy to do that.
So coaching, as you said, hundreds of leaders and having trained more than a thousand leaders and managers in understanding themselves and having conversations with other people in order to get the best out of them has really shined a light for me on a couple of areas that people are really struggling with.
(05:18):
And one of those areas is overwhelm.
And I feel like it's never been more true to talk about this as an issue that's affecting all people, all generations.
We're overstimulated.
There is an abundance of information out there that's grabbing our attention.
The algorithms have got smarter to the point where we feel we've got dumber because we can't outwit them.
(05:42):
And it's exhausting.
We're in this culture that's always on.
People are experiencing the convenience of WhatsApp chats for work, WhatsApp groups, but actually that's an intrusion.
They're finding that they're on those groups and checking those messages, responding to those messages outside of the normal working day now.
(06:05):
And during the pandemic, people had more, they rethought their lives, they refocused, they started to think about the things that were important and they included new things in their and they realized what they missed.
And that was a real key point for me.
That's when I started the book.
I thought, actually, this is a point in time when people are really considering what really matters.
(06:27):
So how can I shine that light really on the things that people do want to spend their time and attention on and what have people got their energy for and what will help them be at their and be their best selves in their work, their home life, their relationships.
But it just feels like more true than ever that people are pretty exhausted out there.
(06:49):
And I really like to help people find a way through.
I've never really met anyone who doesn't want to be their best self.
No one can be their best self all the time, but a lot of us are hoping we can be our best selves more of the time.
So perhaps alleviating some of this overwhelm, gaining clarity, having perspective and focus on the things that really do need to get done and really matter can help people feel that they're more on top of things and they're living and enjoying their lives, not just surviving.
(07:19):
Well, that would be a wonderful thing if at the end of this conversation, you have shared some insights into helping people feel a little bit calmer and maybe have a little more agency in what's going on and the ability to focus on what really matters.
Because you used a fascinating word there, convenience.
It's convenient now we can access WhatsApp and all those, easy to get hold of, but that is contributing to this always on piece.
(07:47):
It feels like it's really hard to stop the world, to shut it off, to quiet the noise.
So any tips and stuff on how to deal with that I think will be fantastic.
I just want to start off on the level playing field for everybody listening today.
When we talk about overwhelm, Julia, when you talk about overwhelm, how does that show up?
(08:12):
What is it that your clients talk about?
What are they experiencing that really defines what overwhelm is for the majority of people?
I think for a lot of people, it's a sense of they know what needs doing and they don't know how to focus on it.
So they'll have a sense of the volume of their work, but they'll have less of a true sense of their capacity for it.
(08:37):
They may believe that they don't have the capacity for it.
So then it's about what can be prioritised, what can be delegated, what really needs doing, what balls can be dropped, which ones need to be kept in the air.
So I think people almost lose, and they lose this sense of their own capability.
(09:00):
So they feel a greater, they have a greater impression of what they can't do and have a less of an understanding of what they can do.
So in a way, they feel limited and they're hard on themselves.
They are kind of more negatively skewed.
And in some ways, that's important because it helps you withdraw and it helps you step back and it helps you not take more on.
(09:26):
For some people, they keep taking more on until the boiling point, the point at which actually change is decided for you, and then the overwhelm has really tipped in over into ill health.
So I think the thing, I think almost you can sort of sense it as well in your nervous system.
(09:46):
If you sit still, but you sense that you're fizzing with energy, if that doesn't subside, after 15, 20 minutes with having some stillness and some breathing and starting to clear your mind, then actually your nervous system is probably overwhelmed.
And it can happen very easily.
(10:08):
As I've said, there are so many things that are interesting, exciting, that we can get enthusiastic about, distracted by, and they're not all important.
And sometimes we can get caught up in what's important to other people without paying attention to what's important to us.
I think that's a really important point.
(10:28):
I mean, if I think about how overwhelm maybe affects me, I know one of the impacts of feeling overwhelmed, clearly there's the bit about, I just don't know where to start.
There's a lot.
And I'm just like, oh, wow, how can I prioritize?
How can I get going?
(10:50):
I definitely procrastinate.
I'm straight in.
I've touched loads of things and start stuff, don't see it through.
I'm like a kitten with a laser pen that any distraction possible takes me away.
But while you're getting that, I guess, relief from the, where do I start?
There's also this other bit in the background that is like, well, it's building up because I'm not tackling it.
(11:14):
So that you're almost multiplying the effect of that overwhelm by leaning into all of those behaviors.
And then if you're anything like me, it's triggering off your various imposters at the same time as, well, if I don't do this, then they're going to think I'm an idiot or the quality's not going to be great.
And you're just building up pressure.
(11:35):
That's what we're going through.
Hopefully I'm not on my own like that.
Definitely not on your own.
And as you described there, it's when fear is driving that behavior, like I've got to get it done.
I fear that what might happen if I don't, or I don't like how I feel about myself because I haven't got it done.
That's when we've kind of made that connection, almost like an over association with busyness equals your self-worth.
(12:01):
So, you know, the idea that I'm not a good enough person if I'm not busy.
I have to be because that's how I judge myself.
That's how I see myself achieving.
And that's when we've lost sight really of what are the things that really count?
What are the things that will really make a difference?
What are the things that we do need to bring into sharp focus?
Because they're the things that lift us up and I'll talk later about some of the drivers, what's really driving us to behave in certain ways.
(12:29):
What we're really looking for is a useful lens to start to look through, because we can just get very busy doing stuff and hamster on the wheel.
Keep going, keep going.
Yeah, yeah.
Eventually, you know, that wheel falls off.
Yeah.
I don't want to put my hand in the cage and put that wheel back together.
Yeah.
Sometimes a hamster dies.
(12:50):
We went dark pretty early on that, Julia.
We did.
It doesn't always end in death, but for hamsters sometimes.
Well, yeah.
Gerbils even quicker, I think, as a kid.
I wonder which are faster and more durable.
Well, there's a question for everybody listening.
Please write in and let us know, gerbils or hamsters, which dies faster?
(13:11):
Wow.
Coming back to the point that we were talking about there, I think this thing about being effective, not busy, that's a mindset change, right?
Not filling your day with stuff, but doing the things that really matter.
And I'd like to get into these motivational drivers you've just mentioned.
So the book references, you reference these five motivational drivers.
(13:39):
And you also just said something really interesting, understanding what it is you're looking for or trying to achieve.
Those two things sort of come together.
So explain the drivers and explain that kind of mindset piece that we're talking about here.
Yeah.
And I suppose it comes back to the book being a very simple way of thinking about things to create that new perspective, to deal with the overwhelm.
(14:01):
And one of the reasons why I pick five is looking into that.
Five is a really easy number for people to keep five things in their minds.
And when we look at, do you remember when the public health brought in, eat five fruit and veg a day?
Well, actually the World Health Organization advocated seven fruit and veg a day.
(14:23):
But the social scientists won out because they said, you know, thinking from a behavioral perspective, people will do five.
They can remember five, you know, seven's a stretch.
And I think that's true of a lot of things.
We've got five things on our hands that helps us pick things up, you know, carry our loads.
Five does, keeps us stable.
You know, five's a good number.
(14:43):
Three, we might be short changing ourselves.
Five's a good number of things that we can have an interest in a regard for and bring into focus.
I would recommend not thinking about more than that.
You probably are tipping into, you know, doing more things that are beyond your capacity.
So the motivational drivers really is about thinking about what are you really looking for?
(15:06):
You know, the way we go about things, the way we behave is often there's a motivator behind it and if we don't understand why we're doing what we're doing, what we're really looking for, we'll just like you say, you know, grab the next shiny thing or like you say, be the, you know, like the laser pen and the curtains.
It's more around, okay, what really matters to you?
(15:27):
What are you really looking for?
So in the book, one of the chapters covers this and I talk about, if the, think about these five things, you know, it might be that you're looking for freedom.
If you're looking for freedom right now or fulfilment or kudos or fellowship or, you know, or even, you know, your fortune, your finance.
(15:54):
One of those things is going to be really important to you at any one time.
So let's take freedom, for example.
So you might be in a role and actually you're looking for something else, but you don't know what it is.
Think about freedom.
Is it that you want more autonomy in a new position?
Is it that you want to make more decisions?
Is it that you want to work more flexibly?
(16:16):
Is it that you want to, you know, take your ideas more widely?
You know, freedom might, or is it that you want to travel?
You know, freedom might be defined by you obviously differently to anybody else, but freedom might be a real key driver for you.
So is that what you're looking for?
Or is it fulfilment?
Is it a sense of purpose?
(16:37):
You know, is it something that you're looking for that will bring you great reward?
Is it something that will really fill your cup, you know, help you feel more rounded as a person or feel you're making a difference or really feel that you're on some sort of a mission?
You know, that sense of fulfilment, is that what's important to you right now?
Or is it fellowship?
(16:58):
Is it that you really crave being part of a team or a network, you know, have that sense of belonging and connection, a group of like-minded people that you connect with, that you understand, you share the values with, and maybe you don't have that right now, you know, in the work that you're doing or the groups that you're in or the organisation that you're in.
(17:18):
Fellowship might be really important to you and that can help you think about, okay, where am I going to put my efforts if I'm going to do this work?
Will, is fellowship something I'm really looking for?
Or it might be finance, you know, finance might be really driving you.
The change that you're looking to make might be really driven by how
(17:40):
much you want to earn or, you know, how soon you perhaps want to retire or, you know, what does
that, what will finance give to you that, you know, might kind of give your business that injection of
capital that you need or, yeah, so that finance and that money side of things could be a real
(18:00):
drive of people but knowing if it is alongside the other four things is a useful way to think.
And then finally, kudos, you know, is it fame you're looking for?
Do you want to be known?
Do we need to get your name out there?
Do you need to be seen?
Is it about time that, you know, the work that you've been doing, the knowledge that you've got, the expertise that you have needs to now reach that kind of wider forum?
(18:25):
And how does that, what does that look like?
Does that look like, you know, you're talking about your work, does it talk about, you know, being more visible or is it about being known and connected with people who are also known for that?
So freedom, fellowship, fulfilment, finance, kudos, this is all, each one of those is going be important to somebody at any one point and we can rank them one to five.
(18:54):
What's really driving you?
One of those will be at the top, one of those will be at the bottom.
I mean, that's a really interesting conversation, isn't it?
I mean, just even trying to think about those, how many people really bring that to the surface and I can understand how that might be useful.
I also love the link.
I mean, I'm a big fan of the sort of the Dan Pink human motivation stuff and if I look at the five factors that you've talked here, there's clear crossover with the whole purpose, mastery and autonomy piece in there.
(19:26):
And then I'm also a massive fan of things like Ikigai and that again crosses over.
And I think this is what I find really interesting about this topic and this is why having a coach on the episode I think is a really useful thing at this time or this context that we're talking about here because these are not easy things to prioritize and to understand, I don't think.
(19:54):
I mean, you could have a very easy shot yourself at thinking about these things, but having a personal trainer approach to kind of making you really think about what is important and why it's important and even that ranking of priority, you need, I think, somebody to help you have that conversation.
(20:15):
Yeah, and it's going back to the why.
It's not what needs doing, it's why does it need doing and does it need doing and does it need to be you who needs to do it?
Yeah, that understanding of a deeper level about why freedom is important to you, for example, and then how that shows up, right?
(20:35):
That's a really interesting conversation.
In the work that you do, when you encounter somebody who perhaps looks at these things balancing between work and life and one driver is really, really important for work, but another driver is really, really important for home, how does that balancing piece of a conversation go?
(20:57):
How do you help people through that?
Well, that's a really important question because it is balancing, so it might mean that the person's actually acting in a way that's counterintuitive.
So they're saying to me, oh, it's freedom, I really crave, but actually then when they'll talk about the habits that they're in or the way they're actually behaving at work, that might be really counter to what they really want.
(21:21):
So it is about understanding that person,
really getting to understand them, helping them understand themselves in a way that means they
can align themselves with their true intentions, so that the actions they take, the way they show
up in the world are aligned to how they want to be, rather than the habits that they've got
themselves into or even the culture that they find themselves in, their organization.
(21:48):
Yeah, so it's about really listening to people and understanding that if that's what matters to them, how can I help them see where their opportunities are to make those shifts, so they're much more aligned with their own intentions.
Brilliant, and this is going to be
a daft question, but in all of the conversations you've had around these five motivational factors,
(22:12):
I know they're very individual, but are there any consistent themes that are coming through
today, perhaps influenced by context, perhaps influenced by the way we're working today,
that seem to resonate with more people, or is it, no, do you know what, it's a complete scattergun,
everybody's individual and there's very, very different things going on.
(22:33):
I think sometimes there's a strong association with somebody who wants freedom, but exerts a lot of control.
Oh, that's interesting.
How's that showing up?
What sort of conversations you have in there?
Well, I suppose, you know, someone might be very busy and it may be that they've gotten some patterns where they're micromanaging.
Right.
(22:54):
And what they really crave is the freedom to trust their people, yeah, and the freedom to go and do the stuff that's on their ideas list.
They always help people separate out as well, the difference between their freedom to have ideas and their freedom to choose their actions, because they're not the same thing.
No, and time's a factor in this as well, isn't it?
(23:15):
Because sometimes we've got that tension between short-term use of my time, long-term investment of my time, particularly around this thing you just talked about, about freedom, which might come through stopping micromanaging, controlling and facilitating, enabling and empowering people in your team to do different things.
(23:36):
But do you know what?
It's just quicker if I do the thing now and cover it for them, rather than invest the time in supporting and coaching someone to be able to sort of take control, take over things and I can release the lock on it myself.
That can be quite a hard thing for people to get their head around.
(23:57):
It is.
But my style is, you know, supportive challenge, I approach with kindness, because I do know what it's like to be in a state of overwhelm.
I do know how it clouds thinking.
And I do think, you know, giving someone the opportunity to be heard, listened to, and help them, you know, coach them through their thinking towards the way they want to start to be.
(24:20):
One of the things you touched on there is time.
And I do think, you know, when we're in a state of overwhelm, we lose a true perspective of time.
We just have this sense that there is no time.
But there is time, it's just how we choose to spend that time.
I like the concept of 1440 with regards to time.
(24:43):
I like to think about that's how many minutes you get in a day.
And if you thought about those as gold coins, instead of minutes, it's a more tangible asset.
And would you think twice about where you invest your coins?
Would you think twice about who's nicking coins off you?
(25:03):
Would you think a bit more about where you're just losing coins down the back of the sofa?
And maybe if you thought about it in that more tangible way, you'd maybe use your time more effectively.
I think that's very true.
And I think, you know, sometimes taking 15 minutes to pause and just, you know, take a little bit of time out can be worth an hour, slogging away at something, feeling this is really hard, I'm not enjoying this, this is not what I want to be doing.
(25:31):
I know I've got all this stuff.
And, you know, all that negativity building up and that, you know, bringing that sense of frustration to the tasks actually detracts from the quality of the work and also has a negative effect on how we feel in our bodies.
And when we don't feel, you know, when we feel tense in our bodies, we don't bring, we don't engage well with the task that we're operating on.
(25:56):
There's no joy.
There's a couple of things I've got, though, that in the book that I think help people think about time and how to look through a different lens, rather than this lens of there is no time, I'm too busy.
If that might be helpful to share.
Yeah, let's have that.
If you're happy to share that, that'd be great.
Well, I think when we're more realistic about time and think from the point of view of focusing, okay, what have I got time for?
(26:24):
I find it's useful to just come up with five simple time frames.
So, for example, what can I do in the next two hours?
Okay.
And make a note.
What can I do in the next 24 hours?
List it all down.
What can I do in the next week?
(26:44):
Okay.
The next month, the next three months, you know, there you've got yourself a really nice overview of what is most pressing and can be done in the next two hours.
You can pick from that list.
You've also got a sense of what, by the end of tomorrow, what, you know, in the next 24 hours, what you'd like to have completed or started.
(27:08):
You know, so you start to think, like you said, we can get skewed really, can't we?
I think the research says that we tend to overestimate what we can achieve in the short term and underestimate what we can achieve in the long term.
But I think when you're factoring in, you know, those different time frames, you can have a better perspective.
(27:29):
The other thing I do is I schedule absolutely everything.
Yeah.
Everything goes in my diary.
And to some people that would create sheer panic, but it's all there.
And you know what, if it's not priority, it just gets moved to the next day.
And I am forever moving things on, but I don't forget to do things.
And if they are important, they do get rescheduled or they get done.
(27:52):
And if they're not important and I'm still getting a reminder to pitch to a magazine six months after I still haven't done that, I might review.
Is that still something I should be?
And I might just take out the list.
I love that because there's something also about whacking it in your calendar that shows the time element of all this sort of stuff.
(28:12):
You know, my desk, if you could see this, and fortunately no one can, it's littered with bits of paper, with little notes and bits and pieces on.
I know where everything is.
That's my system, but none of it has got any time attached to it.
Right.
And that's where we end up losing track and I become ineffective.
And I think the times when I'm feeling very productive, it all goes in my diary.
(28:34):
And like you say, yeah, it can be quite a scary thing.
Wow.
Look at all that time, but that's realistically where my time was going to go anyway.
But now I can see it.
If you choose to do it, if you choose to do it, I think that's the difference as well.
And I do talk to people about that.
Like I always used to say, you know, the day I run out of ideas, I'm done.
Okay.
Being a natural enthusiast, that's like a serious concern for me.
(28:58):
What if I run out of ideas?
I've started to shift around that a little bit now.
Actually, that might give me a little bit more peace of mind because there won't be so many things I feel enthusiastic about or attracted to or feel like, oh, that's another action.
So when I coach people now and they tell me about what they've got in their mind and what they're thinking about doing, and I'll say, is that an idea or is that an action?
(29:19):
Because sometimes it's just an idea.
So I say, make two lists or make one big list, you know, divide it in half.
One side of the page, ideas.
One side of the page, action.
Some of those ideas need to be acted on.
They're brilliant.
They're not going anywhere.
They need to happen.
And some of them are just ideas.
Some of them are just bits of stimulus, right, that help us think about how we frame something else.
(29:40):
Exactly.
Maybe it just got you to your desk to open your laptop that day.
Like, I could, but maybe you don't have to.
I could.
You could, but do you have to?
Do you want to?
Is it going to make a difference?
Does it matter?
This all relates to the theme that you've got, I guess, in the book about not giving yourself too much of a hard time, but focusing on what you can do, right?
Yeah.
And what matters.
(30:01):
And what matters.
But even when you laid out your timeline of what can I do in the next two hours, 24, I'm thinking, well, I might be able to do the two hours and I could probably do the 24.
I'm then starting to panic about, well, what is the next thing?
When you get people who are challenged, like me, maybe, how do you help them unlock that kind of stuck moment or maybe fear again of, oh, am I going to get this wrong?
(30:29):
Is it realistic?
Yeah, I think that disconnecting that idea of busyness and self-worth being the same thing.
Do you know what I mean?
Not judging yourself too harshly, staying in the present moment.
Even not doing actually sometimes is a real gift to yourself because I quite often just go for a walk.
(30:52):
If I feel I've got so much to do and it's so counterintuitive, I will go for a walk because I will come back to my desk clearheaded and have a better sense of what I'm actually going to do first.
What have I got the energy for?
I think there's also something in starting small, right?
Because it's little wins that create some momentum as we go forward.
(31:13):
Absolutely, just to get in the mode, just to get into the activity mode.
I think momentum's hugely important.
I would like to touch on something I think is really important and I think is a fascinating thing that you cover.
This is about boundaries and being really clear about the boundaries you're setting to enable you to keep focused on the important things.
(31:42):
Now, talk us through that.
Why are boundaries so important and not a selfish thing, an essential thing?
Yeah, they are essential.
I suppose if you think about the things that matter to you being a bit like, so the things that you've planned to do, the things that need to get done, the things that you want to get done.
If you imagine them like you're a farmer and you've got these prize cattle and the things that need to get done, they're your prize cattle.
(32:10):
You're going to look after them no matter what.
They're going to reap their own benefits for you.
The last thing you would do is open all the gates and tear down all the fences around the fields and let your prize cattle go wandering off and let them go wandering onto the A roads and the motorways and be in other people's, other farmers' fields.
(32:32):
The last thing you would do, you'd keep them close, you'd protect them, you'd put a boundary around them.
We're not so good at having boundaries when we're really lovely, kind people, pleasing, helpful folk, which are wonderful qualities to have.
But if it means that you'll show up for other people before you'll show up for the things that are important to you, when you start to tip into that idea of you're overwhelmed, you might even then start to resent that you've given your time to other people or they've just taken it from you.
(33:10):
They took those prize cattle, they wandered into their farm, their own field, so they're mine now.
So if you lose track of the things that are important to you, you might get that sense of resentment, frustration and overwhelm.
So it's really important to put boundaries around the things that do matter.
(33:30):
And the most important thing about boundaries is that not only that you identify that you need them, but secondly, that you create them.
Thirdly, that you communicate to other people that they're there.
So yeah, I'm going to be really busy.
There's that word.
I'm going to be really busy, focused today.
I don't want any interruptions or distractions.
(33:52):
I'm going to have my phone off because this is what I'm working on.
Okay, communicating that to people, but I will be available after next time, four o'clock, I'm free.
And then I'll call you.
Yeah, I'll call you when I'm ready.
This sort of thing, so communicating to people what you aren't available for, what you are available for and why not.
(34:13):
Okay.
And then the other important thing to do is stick to those boundaries.
But then the final thing is important is to check with people they've understood those boundaries.
Did you mean it?
And if you're not good at sticking to them, they're going to think you didn't mean it.
So check their understanding of the boundary you've put in place.
Now I did mean it when my office door is closed, it's because I don't want to be disturbed.
(34:37):
When there's a sign on saying podcast being recorded, please don't knock.
So what is it that you feel you need to protect?
It's precious and it's going to deliver the results for you that really matter.
And can you do that first and then make yourself available for other people?
If everybody did that, there'd be so much less drama because people will be looking after their stuff firstly.
(35:04):
And we'd all have a little bit more help to help those people who are more vulnerable and cannot help themselves as well as others.
But if we were all better with the boundaries, we'd all manage the drama and the distractions and feel less overwhelmed.
I love the idea of having a less full drama sponge.
I think that can be really distracting, particularly the sort of people you describe, which I think lots of people fall into, genuinely nice, kind, helpful people, want to look out for people, and we end up taking on a lot of other people's baggage.
(35:41):
I totally empathise with that.
I am interested whilst I've got a coach with me in the room, your tips on defending those boundaries and maybe saying no in a way that doesn't offend.
I've got lots of tips that I give other people myself, but I've got an expert in the room.
What's your best tip on saying no with some grace?
(36:05):
No, I love that, with grace.
That's so important.
No one likes a hard no, do they?
No, a flat no, a firm no.
So exactly, a no with grace.
So it's saying what you can do first and then saying what you can't do next.
(36:25):
Or saying why you're not the person but who else is.
So if not you, who?
If it's no, what else?
It's giving people support and options without clouding the clarity of, I can't do that.
That's right, and tell them sooner rather than later because then they can go tap someone else up for that support.
(36:51):
But if you say yes knowing you can't help or you might not be able to help, actually that lets people down in the long run and you don't want that.
I was like, well, no one wins, do they?
Because you take on something you can't deliver so your reputation suffers, their reputation suffers because you can't deliver.
Your relationship suffers because you've let each other down.
It's a two-letter word.
(37:12):
If it can be delivered more effectively, you avoid all of that drama, which is what we want to do.
And then thinking more positively, because you are a very positive person, Julie.
You just exude positivity.
There's a lovely thing, I think, within the bounds of the book, which is about, I mean, you used the word joy at the start of this conversation.
(37:36):
There's this thing around, actually, sometimes with all the overwhelm, we can forget what we've got and how things are going.
So this whole thing about enjoying what you have in rounding this kind of help session that you've brought us today, how important is that?
(37:59):
And how does it show up and how would you want it to show up for people?
It's so important.
And when people are overwhelmed, they are thinking about what's difficult.
They're not thinking about what's possible.
So I think that helping people look through those different lenses, that lens of how are things actually going?
(38:22):
So whether that's looking at the five different aspects of your life and scoring them and recognizing the things that are good, what is going well, and also what could be better.
It's not about, yeah, I'm a very positive, joyful person, but I don't gloss over things that need attention.
And that's the thing that it's having that balanced perspective.
(38:45):
So it might be that I'll point someone to think about, okay, so what can you celebrate, nurture, review, try again, and let go.
There are five great ways of bringing a balanced perspective, which helps with our resilience.
Resilient people have a balanced perspective.
It's not all bad.
(39:05):
It's not all good.
They have a good understanding of how things are.
So I will encourage people to say, okay, something good.
Tell me something good.
Let's celebrate that.
Yeah.
Is that true with where you were this time last year?
What's so great about that?
We'll celebrate that.
What do you need to nurture?
What needs a little bit of attention here?
Why you've been having this difficult time?
What have you perhaps neglected and needs a little bit of care and kindness?
(39:28):
What are you going to nurture?
And then people are starting to feel good because they're thinking, oh yeah, actually this really matters to me.
Yes, I've taken my focus away from it.
Yes, it does.
It matters.
So how are you going to nurture that?
And then I'll be asking them, okay, what do you want to review?
What's the stuff that, yeah, you're telling me it's hard.
It's tough.
Do you want to review that then?
(39:48):
And we'll start to look at that.
And then I'll say, you know, what do you want to try again with?
Sometimes people say, I'm so overwhelmed because this has not worked out.
Okay.
Do you want to try again with that?
And they might say, no, I think I've exhausted this now.
I've really tried to bring this product to market.
I've really tried to lead this team in this way and that way.
(40:08):
No, I'm not going to try again on that now.
I've done my best, but that's good.
And then we're moving on to the, what do you want to let go of?
You know, that kind of self-forgiveness and that recognition that actually, yeah, I showed up.
I did what was needed.
I probably went above and beyond.
And actually now I need to, I'm ready to move on to other things where that matter.
(40:29):
Again, back to that freedom, fulfillment, what are those things and how can we get you to start to look through those lenses because they're the things that will drive you forward.
That's where your intentions lie.
That's where your actions can come.
I love that because there's again, to me, that comes back to a couple of things that we've, we've mentioned one being momentum and one being progress, right?
(40:58):
Moving forward.
And I know that the two are connected, but all of those five allow you to see what you've done.
Because I think sometimes in the overwhelm, we can forget the progress, the achievement that we've actually made.
And even in that conversation of letting things go, that's moving forward.
(41:19):
That's freeing up space.
That's moving on from something.
That's again, momentum comes back to perhaps feeling like you've taken more agency or control over something.
That's a win.
That's success.
That's achieving.
It doesn't always like to your point, it's not about stuff.
Often this is about decisions that you make as opposed to things you've delivered.
(41:41):
And that can be hugely motivational, can't it?
So true.
And, and the way the book is structured, it asks the big question and then it'll ask you some insight questions and the insight questions are, will be those things, you know, what's your first step?
What's the smallest thing you could do here?
And sometimes like you've just said, you know, what's that, what's that little thing you can do to progress or look at how far you've already progressed.
(42:03):
We don't look back very often.
Clearly enough, we look back with kind of a muddy mind.
Yeah.
Um, so what's the smallest thing you can do?
Yeah.
They're the kind of insight questions that I ask in the book and that I asked directly in coaching with, with my clients.
And it's the ability to break things down that they become so doable.
(42:24):
Um, it sharpens our focus.
And actually we believe ourselves to be so much more capable.
So everything's so much more possible.
We feel more positive.
We, we feel more aligned.
We feel more, um, on track and it's, it is very, you can get a sense of gratitude from that for yourself, you know, self that is very self-fulfilling as well, because these are the foundations that you build on and keep going forward with that momentum.
(42:52):
That's what's so lovely.
Um, yeah, it can be, can be a really transformational thing for people when they do feel back, back in charge of where they were going.
I think so.
I think momentum becomes addictive.
Uh, you know, when you're recognizing these little successes, they can be the little spur on that, that, that you need.
(43:14):
Julia, I actually think we've been very productive in this conversation, to be fair.
I think we've, we've, we've covered a lot of good things.
You've shared some fantastic tips at the risk of underselling ourselves from the fives.
I'm going to bring it down to threes because in, in an attempt to sort of summarize your best bits of advice, we've come to the part in the show I like to call sticky notes.
(43:36):
And I am, I'm looking for those little reminders that people can stick on their screen.
What those three little pills of wisdom would be to help, help people keep their focus in check and keep on the right path as, as we think about, you know, the, the year ahead.
So, um, what three bits of advice would you like to share today?
(43:59):
Yeah.
So I think the three main takeaways for people that might be useful are if we can uncouple this idea of self-worth and busyness, you know, your busiest self is not necessarily your best self.
I think secondly, clarifying your own intentions by considering what you're really looking for.
(44:19):
That's going to help you plan some actions that will be much more aligned with the truest, bestest version of you.
I think thirdly, staying focused on what's important to you when that overwhelm looms and it does, we all recognize it, but it can be kept in check when you remind yourself of the boundaries that you need to build, create, communicate, and stick to so that you can focus on what's possible.
(44:47):
Brilliant.
I tell you what, if everybody uses those three sticky notes, grabs a mate and has a chat, um, I'm sure we can find some clarity and some focus and sort of start to feel like we're a bit more in control.
But if people would like to find out a bit more about you, Julia, and get hold of the book, where should they go looking?
Yeah, great.
(45:07):
I'd love that.
So, um, I've got a website, so ontheupconsulting.com, and there's details of my book on there and the work that I do with organizations and directly coaching people.
And, uh, the book's available on Amazon and Waterstones online.
And, um, I'd, love to say it's in your local bookshop.
(45:28):
I don't know.
Go and ask them, go and ask them for a copy.
I've got two different versions of the book.
We've got the updated version this year, just launched this month.
And so it's five ways to focus.
Brilliant.
Well, all those links will go in the show notes as well.
So check those out, everybody.
Julia, what a lovely conversation.
I've really enjoyed meeting you.
(45:50):
I've loved listening to you.
Thank you so much for coming on.
It's my pleasure.
Thank you so much.
I hope it's useful to people.
Undoubtedly, it will be.
Thank you very much.
You take care.
Thank you, Andy.
Okay, everyone.
Well, that was Julia Wolfendale.
And if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the things we've talked about today, please check out the show notes.
(46:13):
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside Podcast.
(46:38):
Until next time, thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So, if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Okay then, let's be honest, there is a lot of noise out there.
A slew of emails waiting for you, meetings, messages, expectations from others, deadlines to hit and that's just a work bit.
(01:25):
And then you throw in stuff like the kids, the school run, caring for others, trying to stay fit, remembering birthdays.
I am rubbish at that.
And maybe, if we're lucky, actually sit down and have a proper conversation with the person we live with.
And then suddenly life feels like one giant to-do list with no finish line in sight.
(01:48):
It's no wonder so many of us feel like we're running on empty, feeling like we're permanently switched on but rarely tuned in.
And it doesn't seem to matter who you are, whether you're leading a company, managing a team, or just trying to keep all the plates spinning at home, overwhelm doesn't discriminate.
(02:09):
My guest today knows this feeling all too well.
Julia Wolfendale is the founder and director of On The Up Consulting.
She's an accredited coach and the author of the brilliant book, Five Ways To Focus.
Deal with overwhelm, gain clarity and perspective to get things on the up.
Julia's coached hundreds of leaders on how to be their best selves and rediscover what really matters, not just in their careers but in their lives.
(02:38):
And recently, while revisiting her book, she had one of those light bulb moments we can all relate to.
And looking around at the pace of everything that was going on and the pressures of modern life, Julia realized this stuff is more true than ever.
Because the truth is, overwhelm doesn't care about your job title.
(03:01):
It hits high performers and self-starters just as hard as anyone else.
It's that meeting that overruns and squishes everything else.
The inbox that seemingly never empties.
The guilt of missing the school play or the quiet frustration that despite being constantly busy, we're not even sure if we're moving in the right direction or forward at all at times.
(03:26):
So in this episode, as we head into a moment where many of us are possibly rethinking what really matters, setting goals and maybe trying to declutter a bit of life, we're diving into Julia's five ways to focus.
Five simple, practical ideas to help us reset, regain perspective, and start getting life and leadership back on the up.
(03:50):
Julia, welcome to the show.
Hi Andy, thank you so much for having me on.
Loving, loving the fact that you're here.
I think if ever there was a time to have this sort of conversation, it's probably now.
I myself am feeling, I don't know, a little discombobulated.
I think there's a lot of stuff I know I want to do.
(04:12):
And at the same time, I've got a little bit of work in the background, but I still feel like there's not enough time to cope with it all.
And I can sit at my desk, feel like I'm absolutely sprinting.
At the end of it, look back and go, well, what did I actually achieve?
I'm not sure much.
So I need your help, Julia.
I'm sure there's plenty of people in the audience that are going to really resonate with some of the things that you're going to share with us today.
(04:35):
I hope, anyway.
I hope so too.
Before we kick off and get into all the meat and bones of the five drivers that you're going to talk about, just give us a little bit of a better introduction to you, what you do, and where your focus is right now.
(04:55):
Yeah, thank you.
Happy to do that.
So coaching, as you said, hundreds of leaders and having trained more than a thousand leaders and managers in understanding themselves and having conversations with other people in order to get the best out of them has really shined a light for me on a couple of areas that people are really struggling with.
(05:18):
And one of those areas is overwhelm.
And I feel like it's never been more true to talk about this as an issue that's affecting all people, all generations.
We're overstimulated.
There is an abundance of information out there that's grabbing our attention.
The algorithms have got smarter to the point where we feel we've got dumber because we can't outwit them.
(05:42):
And it's exhausting.
We're in this culture that's always on.
People are experiencing the convenience of WhatsApp chats for work, WhatsApp groups, but actually that's an intrusion.
They're finding that they're on those groups and checking those messages, responding to those messages outside of the normal working day now.
(06:05):
And during the pandemic, people had more, they rethought their lives, they refocused, they started to think about the things that were important and they included new things in their and they realized what they missed.
And that was a real key point for me.
That's when I started the book.
I thought, actually, this is a point in time when people are really considering what really matters.
(06:27):
So how can I shine that light really on the things that people do want to spend their time and attention on and what have people got their energy for and what will help them be at their and be their best selves in their work, their home life, their relationships.
But it just feels like more true than ever that people are pretty exhausted out there.
(06:49):
And I really like to help people find a way through.
I've never really met anyone who doesn't want to be their best self.
No one can be their best self all the time, but a lot of us are hoping we can be our best selves more of the time.
So perhaps alleviating some of this overwhelm, gaining clarity, having perspective and focus on the things that really do need to get done and really matter can help people feel that they're more on top of things and they're living and enjoying their lives, not just surviving.
(07:19):
Well, that would be a wonderful thing if at the end of this conversation, you have shared some insights into helping people feel a little bit calmer and maybe have a little more agency in what's going on and the ability to focus on what really matters.
Because you used a fascinating word there, convenience.
It's convenient now we can access WhatsApp and all those, easy to get hold of, but that is contributing to this always on piece.
(07:47):
It feels like it's really hard to stop the world, to shut it off, to quiet the noise.
So any tips and stuff on how to deal with that I think will be fantastic.
I just want to start off on the level playing field for everybody listening today.
When we talk about overwhelm, Julia, when you talk about overwhelm, how does that show up?
(08:12):
What is it that your clients talk about?
What are they experiencing that really defines what overwhelm is for the majority of people?
I think for a lot of people, it's a sense of they know what needs doing and they don't know how to focus on it.
So they'll have a sense of the volume of their work, but they'll have less of a true sense of their capacity for it.
(08:37):
They may believe that they don't have the capacity for it.
So then it's about what can be prioritised, what can be delegated, what really needs doing, what balls can be dropped, which ones need to be kept in the air.
So I think people almost lose, and they lose this sense of their own capability.
(09:00):
So they feel a greater, they have a greater impression of what they can't do and have a less of an understanding of what they can do.
So in a way, they feel limited and they're hard on themselves.
They are kind of more negatively skewed.
And in some ways, that's important because it helps you withdraw and it helps you step back and it helps you not take more on.
(09:26):
For some people, they keep taking more on until the boiling point, the point at which actually change is decided for you, and then the overwhelm has really tipped in over into ill health.
So I think the thing, I think almost you can sort of sense it as well in your nervous system.
(09:46):
If you sit still, but you sense that you're fizzing with energy, if that doesn't subside, after 15, 20 minutes with having some stillness and some breathing and starting to clear your mind, then actually your nervous system is probably overwhelmed.
And it can happen very easily.
(10:08):
As I've said, there are so many things that are interesting, exciting, that we can get enthusiastic about, distracted by, and they're not all important.
And sometimes we can get caught up in what's important to other people without paying attention to what's important to us.
I think that's a really important point.
(10:28):
I mean, if I think about how overwhelm maybe affects me, I know one of the impacts of feeling overwhelmed, clearly there's the bit about, I just don't know where to start.
There's a lot.
And I'm just like, oh, wow, how can I prioritize?
How can I get going?
(10:50):
I definitely procrastinate.
I'm straight in.
I've touched loads of things and start stuff, don't see it through.
I'm like a kitten with a laser pen that any distraction possible takes me away.
But while you're getting that, I guess, relief from the, where do I start?
There's also this other bit in the background that is like, well, it's building up because I'm not tackling it.
(11:14):
So that you're almost multiplying the effect of that overwhelm by leaning into all of those behaviors.
And then if you're anything like me, it's triggering off your various imposters at the same time as, well, if I don't do this, then they're going to think I'm an idiot or the quality's not going to be great.
And you're just building up pressure.
(11:35):
That's what we're going through.
Hopefully I'm not on my own like that.
Definitely not on your own.
And as you described there, it's when fear is driving that behavior, like I've got to get it done.
I fear that what might happen if I don't, or I don't like how I feel about myself because I haven't got it done.
That's when we've kind of made that connection, almost like an over association with busyness equals your self-worth.
(12:01):
So, you know, the idea that I'm not a good enough person if I'm not busy.
I have to be because that's how I judge myself.
That's how I see myself achieving.
And that's when we've lost sight really of what are the things that really count?
What are the things that will really make a difference?
What are the things that we do need to bring into sharp focus?
Because they're the things that lift us up and I'll talk later about some of the drivers, what's really driving us to behave in certain ways.
(12:29):
What we're really looking for is a useful lens to start to look through, because we can just get very busy doing stuff and hamster on the wheel.
Keep going, keep going.
Yeah, yeah.
Eventually, you know, that wheel falls off.
Yeah.
I don't want to put my hand in the cage and put that wheel back together.
Yeah.
Sometimes a hamster dies.
(12:50):
We went dark pretty early on that, Julia.
We did.
It doesn't always end in death, but for hamsters sometimes.
Well, yeah.
Gerbils even quicker, I think, as a kid.
I wonder which are faster and more durable.
Well, there's a question for everybody listening.
Please write in and let us know, gerbils or hamsters, which dies faster?
(13:11):
Wow.
Coming back to the point that we were talking about there, I think this thing about being effective, not busy, that's a mindset change, right?
Not filling your day with stuff, but doing the things that really matter.
And I'd like to get into these motivational drivers you've just mentioned.
So the book references, you reference these five motivational drivers.
(13:39):
And you also just said something really interesting, understanding what it is you're looking for or trying to achieve.
Those two things sort of come together.
So explain the drivers and explain that kind of mindset piece that we're talking about here.
Yeah.
And I suppose it comes back to the book being a very simple way of thinking about things to create that new perspective, to deal with the overwhelm.
(14:01):
And one of the reasons why I pick five is looking into that.
Five is a really easy number for people to keep five things in their minds.
And when we look at, do you remember when the public health brought in, eat five fruit and veg a day?
Well, actually the World Health Organization advocated seven fruit and veg a day.
(14:23):
But the social scientists won out because they said, you know, thinking from a behavioral perspective, people will do five.
They can remember five, you know, seven's a stretch.
And I think that's true of a lot of things.
We've got five things on our hands that helps us pick things up, you know, carry our loads.
Five does, keeps us stable.
You know, five's a good number.
(14:43):
Three, we might be short changing ourselves.
Five's a good number of things that we can have an interest in a regard for and bring into focus.
I would recommend not thinking about more than that.
You probably are tipping into, you know, doing more things that are beyond your capacity.
So the motivational drivers really is about thinking about what are you really looking for?
(15:06):
You know, the way we go about things, the way we behave is often there's a motivator behind it and if we don't understand why we're doing what we're doing, what we're really looking for, we'll just like you say, you know, grab the next shiny thing or like you say, be the, you know, like the laser pen and the curtains.
It's more around, okay, what really matters to you?
(15:27):
What are you really looking for?
So in the book, one of the chapters covers this and I talk about, if the, think about these five things, you know, it might be that you're looking for freedom.
If you're looking for freedom right now or fulfilment or kudos or fellowship or, you know, or even, you know, your fortune, your finance.
(15:54):
One of those things is going to be really important to you at any one time.
So let's take freedom, for example.
So you might be in a role and actually you're looking for something else, but you don't know what it is.
Think about freedom.
Is it that you want more autonomy in a new position?
Is it that you want to make more decisions?
Is it that you want to work more flexibly?
(16:16):
Is it that you want to, you know, take your ideas more widely?
You know, freedom might, or is it that you want to travel?
You know, freedom might be defined by you obviously differently to anybody else, but freedom might be a real key driver for you.
So is that what you're looking for?
Or is it fulfilment?
Is it a sense of purpose?
(16:37):
You know, is it something that you're looking for that will bring you great reward?
Is it something that will really fill your cup, you know, help you feel more rounded as a person or feel you're making a difference or really feel that you're on some sort of a mission?
You know, that sense of fulfilment, is that what's important to you right now?
Or is it fellowship?
(16:58):
Is it that you really crave being part of a team or a network, you know, have that sense of belonging and connection, a group of like-minded people that you connect with, that you understand, you share the values with, and maybe you don't have that right now, you know, in the work that you're doing or the groups that you're in or the organisation that you're in.
(17:18):
Fellowship might be really important to you and that can help you think about, okay, where am I going to put my efforts if I'm going to do this work?
Will, is fellowship something I'm really looking for?
Or it might be finance, you know, finance might be really driving you.
The change that you're looking to make might be really driven by how
(17:40):
much you want to earn or, you know, how soon you perhaps want to retire or, you know, what does
that, what will finance give to you that, you know, might kind of give your business that injection of
capital that you need or, yeah, so that finance and that money side of things could be a real
(18:00):
drive of people but knowing if it is alongside the other four things is a useful way to think.
And then finally, kudos, you know, is it fame you're looking for?
Do you want to be known?
Do we need to get your name out there?
Do you need to be seen?
Is it about time that, you know, the work that you've been doing, the knowledge that you've got, the expertise that you have needs to now reach that kind of wider forum?
(18:25):
And how does that, what does that look like?
Does that look like, you know, you're talking about your work, does it talk about, you know, being more visible or is it about being known and connected with people who are also known for that?
So freedom, fellowship, fulfilment, finance, kudos, this is all, each one of those is going be important to somebody at any one point and we can rank them one to five.
(18:54):
What's really driving you?
One of those will be at the top, one of those will be at the bottom.
I mean, that's a really interesting conversation, isn't it?
I mean, just even trying to think about those, how many people really bring that to the surface and I can understand how that might be useful.
I also love the link.
I mean, I'm a big fan of the sort of the Dan Pink human motivation stuff and if I look at the five factors that you've talked here, there's clear crossover with the whole purpose, mastery and autonomy piece in there.
(19:26):
And then I'm also a massive fan of things like Ikigai and that again crosses over.
And I think this is what I find really interesting about this topic and this is why having a coach on the episode I think is a really useful thing at this time or this context that we're talking about here because these are not easy things to prioritize and to understand, I don't think.
(19:54):
I mean, you could have a very easy shot yourself at thinking about these things, but having a personal trainer approach to kind of making you really think about what is important and why it's important and even that ranking of priority, you need, I think, somebody to help you have that conversation.
(20:15):
Yeah, and it's going back to the why.
It's not what needs doing, it's why does it need doing and does it need doing and does it need to be you who needs to do it?
Yeah, that understanding of a deeper level about why freedom is important to you, for example, and then how that shows up, right?
(20:35):
That's a really interesting conversation.
In the work that you do, when you encounter somebody who perhaps looks at these things balancing between work and life and one driver is really, really important for work, but another driver is really, really important for home, how does that balancing piece of a conversation go?
(20:57):
How do you help people through that?
Well, that's a really important question because it is balancing, so it might mean that the person's actually acting in a way that's counterintuitive.
So they're saying to me, oh, it's freedom, I really crave, but actually then when they'll talk about the habits that they're in or the way they're actually behaving at work, that might be really counter to what they really want.
(21:21):
So it is about understanding that person,
really getting to understand them, helping them understand themselves in a way that means they
can align themselves with their true intentions, so that the actions they take, the way they show
up in the world are aligned to how they want to be, rather than the habits that they've got
themselves into or even the culture that they find themselves in, their organization.
(21:48):
Yeah, so it's about really listening to people and understanding that if that's what matters to them, how can I help them see where their opportunities are to make those shifts, so they're much more aligned with their own intentions.
Brilliant, and this is going to be
a daft question, but in all of the conversations you've had around these five motivational factors,
(22:12):
I know they're very individual, but are there any consistent themes that are coming through
today, perhaps influenced by context, perhaps influenced by the way we're working today,
that seem to resonate with more people, or is it, no, do you know what, it's a complete scattergun,
everybody's individual and there's very, very different things going on.
(22:33):
I think sometimes there's a strong association with somebody who wants freedom, but exerts a lot of control.
Oh, that's interesting.
How's that showing up?
What sort of conversations you have in there?
Well, I suppose, you know, someone might be very busy and it may be that they've gotten some patterns where they're micromanaging.
Right.
(22:54):
And what they really crave is the freedom to trust their people, yeah, and the freedom to go and do the stuff that's on their ideas list.
They always help people separate out as well, the difference between their freedom to have ideas and their freedom to choose their actions, because they're not the same thing.
No, and time's a factor in this as well, isn't it?
(23:15):
Because sometimes we've got that tension between short-term use of my time, long-term investment of my time, particularly around this thing you just talked about, about freedom, which might come through stopping micromanaging, controlling and facilitating, enabling and empowering people in your team to do different things.
(23:36):
But do you know what?
It's just quicker if I do the thing now and cover it for them, rather than invest the time in supporting and coaching someone to be able to sort of take control, take over things and I can release the lock on it myself.
That can be quite a hard thing for people to get their head around.
(23:57):
It is.
But my style is, you know, supportive challenge, I approach with kindness, because I do know what it's like to be in a state of overwhelm.
I do know how it clouds thinking.
And I do think, you know, giving someone the opportunity to be heard, listened to, and help them, you know, coach them through their thinking towards the way they want to start to be.
(24:20):
One of the things you touched on there is time.
And I do think, you know, when we're in a state of overwhelm, we lose a true perspective of time.
We just have this sense that there is no time.
But there is time, it's just how we choose to spend that time.
I like the concept of 1440 with regards to time.
(24:43):
I like to think about that's how many minutes you get in a day.
And if you thought about those as gold coins, instead of minutes, it's a more tangible asset.
And would you think twice about where you invest your coins?
Would you think twice about who's nicking coins off you?
(25:03):
Would you think a bit more about where you're just losing coins down the back of the sofa?
And maybe if you thought about it in that more tangible way, you'd maybe use your time more effectively.
I think that's very true.
And I think, you know, sometimes taking 15 minutes to pause and just, you know, take a little bit of time out can be worth an hour, slogging away at something, feeling this is really hard, I'm not enjoying this, this is not what I want to be doing.
(25:31):
I know I've got all this stuff.
And, you know, all that negativity building up and that, you know, bringing that sense of frustration to the tasks actually detracts from the quality of the work and also has a negative effect on how we feel in our bodies.
And when we don't feel, you know, when we feel tense in our bodies, we don't bring, we don't engage well with the task that we're operating on.
(25:56):
There's no joy.
There's a couple of things I've got, though, that in the book that I think help people think about time and how to look through a different lens, rather than this lens of there is no time, I'm too busy.
If that might be helpful to share.
Yeah, let's have that.
If you're happy to share that, that'd be great.
Well, I think when we're more realistic about time and think from the point of view of focusing, okay, what have I got time for?
(26:24):
I find it's useful to just come up with five simple time frames.
So, for example, what can I do in the next two hours?
Okay.
And make a note.
What can I do in the next 24 hours?
List it all down.
What can I do in the next week?
(26:44):
Okay.
The next month, the next three months, you know, there you've got yourself a really nice overview of what is most pressing and can be done in the next two hours.
You can pick from that list.
You've also got a sense of what, by the end of tomorrow, what, you know, in the next 24 hours, what you'd like to have completed or started.
(27:08):
You know, so you start to think, like you said, we can get skewed really, can't we?
I think the research says that we tend to overestimate what we can achieve in the short term and underestimate what we can achieve in the long term.
But I think when you're factoring in, you know, those different time frames, you can have a better perspective.
(27:29):
The other thing I do is I schedule absolutely everything.
Yeah.
Everything goes in my diary.
And to some people that would create sheer panic, but it's all there.
And you know what, if it's not priority, it just gets moved to the next day.
And I am forever moving things on, but I don't forget to do things.
And if they are important, they do get rescheduled or they get done.
(27:52):
And if they're not important and I'm still getting a reminder to pitch to a magazine six months after I still haven't done that, I might review.
Is that still something I should be?
And I might just take out the list.
I love that because there's something also about whacking it in your calendar that shows the time element of all this sort of stuff.
(28:12):
You know, my desk, if you could see this, and fortunately no one can, it's littered with bits of paper, with little notes and bits and pieces on.
I know where everything is.
That's my system, but none of it has got any time attached to it.
Right.
And that's where we end up losing track and I become ineffective.
And I think the times when I'm feeling very productive, it all goes in my diary.
(28:34):
And like you say, yeah, it can be quite a scary thing.
Wow.
Look at all that time, but that's realistically where my time was going to go anyway.
But now I can see it.
If you choose to do it, if you choose to do it, I think that's the difference as well.
And I do talk to people about that.
Like I always used to say, you know, the day I run out of ideas, I'm done.
Okay.
Being a natural enthusiast, that's like a serious concern for me.
(28:58):
What if I run out of ideas?
I've started to shift around that a little bit now.
Actually, that might give me a little bit more peace of mind because there won't be so many things I feel enthusiastic about or attracted to or feel like, oh, that's another action.
So when I coach people now and they tell me about what they've got in their mind and what they're thinking about doing, and I'll say, is that an idea or is that an action?
(29:19):
Because sometimes it's just an idea.
So I say, make two lists or make one big list, you know, divide it in half.
One side of the page, ideas.
One side of the page, action.
Some of those ideas need to be acted on.
They're brilliant.
They're not going anywhere.
They need to happen.
And some of them are just ideas.
Some of them are just bits of stimulus, right, that help us think about how we frame something else.
(29:40):
Exactly.
Maybe it just got you to your desk to open your laptop that day.
Like, I could, but maybe you don't have to.
I could.
You could, but do you have to?
Do you want to?
Is it going to make a difference?
Does it matter?
This all relates to the theme that you've got, I guess, in the book about not giving yourself too much of a hard time, but focusing on what you can do, right?
Yeah.
And what matters.
(30:01):
And what matters.
But even when you laid out your timeline of what can I do in the next two hours, 24, I'm thinking, well, I might be able to do the two hours and I could probably do the 24.
I'm then starting to panic about, well, what is the next thing?
When you get people who are challenged, like me, maybe, how do you help them unlock that kind of stuck moment or maybe fear again of, oh, am I going to get this wrong?
(30:29):
Is it realistic?
Yeah, I think that disconnecting that idea of busyness and self-worth being the same thing.
Do you know what I mean?
Not judging yourself too harshly, staying in the present moment.
Even not doing actually sometimes is a real gift to yourself because I quite often just go for a walk.
(30:52):
If I feel I've got so much to do and it's so counterintuitive, I will go for a walk because I will come back to my desk clearheaded and have a better sense of what I'm actually going to do first.
What have I got the energy for?
I think there's also something in starting small, right?
Because it's little wins that create some momentum as we go forward.
(31:13):
Absolutely, just to get in the mode, just to get into the activity mode.
I think momentum's hugely important.
I would like to touch on something I think is really important and I think is a fascinating thing that you cover.
This is about boundaries and being really clear about the boundaries you're setting to enable you to keep focused on the important things.
(31:42):
Now, talk us through that.
Why are boundaries so important and not a selfish thing, an essential thing?
Yeah, they are essential.
I suppose if you think about the things that matter to you being a bit like, so the things that you've planned to do, the things that need to get done, the things that you want to get done.
If you imagine them like you're a farmer and you've got these prize cattle and the things that need to get done, they're your prize cattle.
(32:10):
You're going to look after them no matter what.
They're going to reap their own benefits for you.
The last thing you would do is open all the gates and tear down all the fences around the fields and let your prize cattle go wandering off and let them go wandering onto the A roads and the motorways and be in other people's, other farmers' fields.
(32:32):
The last thing you would do, you'd keep them close, you'd protect them, you'd put a boundary around them.
We're not so good at having boundaries when we're really lovely, kind people, pleasing, helpful folk, which are wonderful qualities to have.
But if it means that you'll show up for other people before you'll show up for the things that are important to you, when you start to tip into that idea of you're overwhelmed, you might even then start to resent that you've given your time to other people or they've just taken it from you.
(33:10):
They took those prize cattle, they wandered into their farm, their own field, so they're mine now.
So if you lose track of the things that are important to you, you might get that sense of resentment, frustration and overwhelm.
So it's really important to put boundaries around the things that do matter.
(33:30):
And the most important thing about boundaries is that not only that you identify that you need them, but secondly, that you create them.
Thirdly, that you communicate to other people that they're there.
So yeah, I'm going to be really busy.
There's that word.
I'm going to be really busy, focused today.
I don't want any interruptions or distractions.
(33:52):
I'm going to have my phone off because this is what I'm working on.
Okay, communicating that to people, but I will be available after next time, four o'clock, I'm free.
And then I'll call you.
Yeah, I'll call you when I'm ready.
This sort of thing, so communicating to people what you aren't available for, what you are available for and why not.
(34:13):
Okay.
And then the other important thing to do is stick to those boundaries.
But then the final thing is important is to check with people they've understood those boundaries.
Did you mean it?
And if you're not good at sticking to them, they're going to think you didn't mean it.
So check their understanding of the boundary you've put in place.
Now I did mean it when my office door is closed, it's because I don't want to be disturbed.
(34:37):
When there's a sign on saying podcast being recorded, please don't knock.
So what is it that you feel you need to protect?
It's precious and it's going to deliver the results for you that really matter.
And can you do that first and then make yourself available for other people?
If everybody did that, there'd be so much less drama because people will be looking after their stuff firstly.
(35:04):
And we'd all have a little bit more help to help those people who are more vulnerable and cannot help themselves as well as others.
But if we were all better with the boundaries, we'd all manage the drama and the distractions and feel less overwhelmed.
I love the idea of having a less full drama sponge.
I think that can be really distracting, particularly the sort of people you describe, which I think lots of people fall into, genuinely nice, kind, helpful people, want to look out for people, and we end up taking on a lot of other people's baggage.
(35:41):
I totally empathise with that.
I am interested whilst I've got a coach with me in the room, your tips on defending those boundaries and maybe saying no in a way that doesn't offend.
I've got lots of tips that I give other people myself, but I've got an expert in the room.
What's your best tip on saying no with some grace?
(36:05):
No, I love that, with grace.
That's so important.
No one likes a hard no, do they?
No, a flat no, a firm no.
So exactly, a no with grace.
So it's saying what you can do first and then saying what you can't do next.
(36:25):
Or saying why you're not the person but who else is.
So if not you, who?
If it's no, what else?
It's giving people support and options without clouding the clarity of, I can't do that.
That's right, and tell them sooner rather than later because then they can go tap someone else up for that support.
(36:51):
But if you say yes knowing you can't help or you might not be able to help, actually that lets people down in the long run and you don't want that.
I was like, well, no one wins, do they?
Because you take on something you can't deliver so your reputation suffers, their reputation suffers because you can't deliver.
Your relationship suffers because you've let each other down.
It's a two-letter word.
(37:12):
If it can be delivered more effectively, you avoid all of that drama, which is what we want to do.
And then thinking more positively, because you are a very positive person, Julie.
You just exude positivity.
There's a lovely thing, I think, within the bounds of the book, which is about, I mean, you used the word joy at the start of this conversation.
(37:36):
There's this thing around, actually, sometimes with all the overwhelm, we can forget what we've got and how things are going.
So this whole thing about enjoying what you have in rounding this kind of help session that you've brought us today, how important is that?
(37:59):
And how does it show up and how would you want it to show up for people?
It's so important.
And when people are overwhelmed, they are thinking about what's difficult.
They're not thinking about what's possible.
So I think that helping people look through those different lenses, that lens of how are things actually going?
(38:22):
So whether that's looking at the five different aspects of your life and scoring them and recognizing the things that are good, what is going well, and also what could be better.
It's not about, yeah, I'm a very positive, joyful person, but I don't gloss over things that need attention.
And that's the thing that it's having that balanced perspective.
(38:45):
So it might be that I'll point someone to think about, okay, so what can you celebrate, nurture, review, try again, and let go.
There are five great ways of bringing a balanced perspective, which helps with our resilience.
Resilient people have a balanced perspective.
It's not all bad.
(39:05):
It's not all good.
They have a good understanding of how things are.
So I will encourage people to say, okay, something good.
Tell me something good.
Let's celebrate that.
Yeah.
Is that true with where you were this time last year?
What's so great about that?
We'll celebrate that.
What do you need to nurture?
What needs a little bit of attention here?
Why you've been having this difficult time?
What have you perhaps neglected and needs a little bit of care and kindness?
(39:28):
What are you going to nurture?
And then people are starting to feel good because they're thinking, oh yeah, actually this really matters to me.
Yes, I've taken my focus away from it.
Yes, it does.
It matters.
So how are you going to nurture that?
And then I'll be asking them, okay, what do you want to review?
What's the stuff that, yeah, you're telling me it's hard.
It's tough.
Do you want to review that then?
(39:48):
And we'll start to look at that.
And then I'll say, you know, what do you want to try again with?
Sometimes people say, I'm so overwhelmed because this has not worked out.
Okay.
Do you want to try again with that?
And they might say, no, I think I've exhausted this now.
I've really tried to bring this product to market.
I've really tried to lead this team in this way and that way.
(40:08):
No, I'm not going to try again on that now.
I've done my best, but that's good.
And then we're moving on to the, what do you want to let go of?
You know, that kind of self-forgiveness and that recognition that actually, yeah, I showed up.
I did what was needed.
I probably went above and beyond.
And actually now I need to, I'm ready to move on to other things where that matter.
(40:29):
Again, back to that freedom, fulfillment, what are those things and how can we get you to start to look through those lenses because they're the things that will drive you forward.
That's where your intentions lie.
That's where your actions can come.
I love that because there's again, to me, that comes back to a couple of things that we've, we've mentioned one being momentum and one being progress, right?
(40:58):
Moving forward.
And I know that the two are connected, but all of those five allow you to see what you've done.
Because I think sometimes in the overwhelm, we can forget the progress, the achievement that we've actually made.
And even in that conversation of letting things go, that's moving forward.
(41:19):
That's freeing up space.
That's moving on from something.
That's again, momentum comes back to perhaps feeling like you've taken more agency or control over something.
That's a win.
That's success.
That's achieving.
It doesn't always like to your point, it's not about stuff.
Often this is about decisions that you make as opposed to things you've delivered.
(41:41):
And that can be hugely motivational, can't it?
So true.
And, and the way the book is structured, it asks the big question and then it'll ask you some insight questions and the insight questions are, will be those things, you know, what's your first step?
What's the smallest thing you could do here?
And sometimes like you've just said, you know, what's that, what's that little thing you can do to progress or look at how far you've already progressed.
(42:03):
We don't look back very often.
Clearly enough, we look back with kind of a muddy mind.
Yeah.
Um, so what's the smallest thing you can do?
Yeah.
They're the kind of insight questions that I ask in the book and that I asked directly in coaching with, with my clients.
And it's the ability to break things down that they become so doable.
(42:24):
Um, it sharpens our focus.
And actually we believe ourselves to be so much more capable.
So everything's so much more possible.
We feel more positive.
We, we feel more aligned.
We feel more, um, on track and it's, it is very, you can get a sense of gratitude from that for yourself, you know, self that is very self-fulfilling as well, because these are the foundations that you build on and keep going forward with that momentum.
(42:52):
That's what's so lovely.
Um, yeah, it can be, can be a really transformational thing for people when they do feel back, back in charge of where they were going.
I think so.
I think momentum becomes addictive.
Uh, you know, when you're recognizing these little successes, they can be the little spur on that, that, that you need.
(43:14):
Julia, I actually think we've been very productive in this conversation, to be fair.
I think we've, we've, we've covered a lot of good things.
You've shared some fantastic tips at the risk of underselling ourselves from the fives.
I'm going to bring it down to threes because in, in an attempt to sort of summarize your best bits of advice, we've come to the part in the show I like to call sticky notes.
(43:36):
And I am, I'm looking for those little reminders that people can stick on their screen.
What those three little pills of wisdom would be to help, help people keep their focus in check and keep on the right path as, as we think about, you know, the, the year ahead.
So, um, what three bits of advice would you like to share today?
(43:59):
Yeah.
So I think the three main takeaways for people that might be useful are if we can uncouple this idea of self-worth and busyness, you know, your busiest self is not necessarily your best self.
I think secondly, clarifying your own intentions by considering what you're really looking for.
(44:19):
That's going to help you plan some actions that will be much more aligned with the truest, bestest version of you.
I think thirdly, staying focused on what's important to you when that overwhelm looms and it does, we all recognize it, but it can be kept in check when you remind yourself of the boundaries that you need to build, create, communicate, and stick to so that you can focus on what's possible.
(44:47):
Brilliant.
I tell you what, if everybody uses those three sticky notes, grabs a mate and has a chat, um, I'm sure we can find some clarity and some focus and sort of start to feel like we're a bit more in control.
But if people would like to find out a bit more about you, Julia, and get hold of the book, where should they go looking?
Yeah, great.
(45:07):
I'd love that.
So, um, I've got a website, so ontheupconsulting.com, and there's details of my book on there and the work that I do with organizations and directly coaching people.
And, uh, the book's available on Amazon and Waterstones online.
And, um, I'd, love to say it's in your local bookshop.
(45:28):
I don't know.
Go and ask them, go and ask them for a copy.
I've got two different versions of the book.
We've got the updated version this year, just launched this month.
And so it's five ways to focus.
Brilliant.
Well, all those links will go in the show notes as well.
So check those out, everybody.
Julia, what a lovely conversation.
I've really enjoyed meeting you.
(45:50):
I've loved listening to you.
Thank you so much for coming on.
It's my pleasure.
Thank you so much.
I hope it's useful to people.
Undoubtedly, it will be.
Thank you very much.
You take care.
Thank you, Andy.
Okay, everyone.
Well, that was Julia Wolfendale.
And if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the things we've talked about today, please check out the show notes.
(46:13):
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting, and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside Podcast.
(46:38):
Until next time, thanks for listening.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.