August 28, 2025 • 52 mins
In this episode of Sticky From The Inside, I speak with Dr. Jo Burrell, Chartered Psychologist, Co-Founder of Ultimate Resilience, and named on HR Magazine’s “HR Most Influential Thinker” list. Jo has just completed a survey of nearly 1,500 HR practitioners — and the findings are a wake-up call for organisations everywhere.
The results? High levels of stress, exhaustion, and burnout across HR teams. These are the very people responsible for safeguarding the physical and mental health of the workforce — yet many are running on empty themselves.
We explore why HR’s wellbeing is a business-critical issue, the case for HR Supervision, the stigma around showing emotion at work, and how leaders can build psychologically safe workplaces for all.
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Key Takeaways- HR is in crisis. Jo’s survey of nearly 1,500 HR practitioners reveals widespread stress, burnout, and exhaustion.
- When HR suffers, so does everyone else. The wellbeing of HR teams underpins the success of all workplace wellbeing strategies.
- Supervision is a lifeline. HR Supervision offers a safe space to protect and strengthen those responsible for supporting others.
- Emotion isn’t weakness. Tackling the stigma around showing emotion is key to building psychologically safe workplaces.
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Key MomentsThe key moments in this episode are:
0:01:10 – HR Crisis Behind Workplace Wellbeing 0:03:44 – Meet Dr. Jo Burrell and today’s focus on HR wellbeing 0:04:15 – Jo’s background and the work of Ultimate Resilience 0:08:25 – The Rachel Reeves moment: why visible emotion hit a nerve 0:11:55 – Why emotion gets judged at work (and what that does to trust) 0:20:16 – Survey spotlight: HR practitioners on stress and wellbeing 0:21:17 – Burnout and anxiety rates vs the general population 0:30:33 – What is HR Supervision? Scope, purpose, and value 0:33:32 – How supervision strengthens HR decision‑making and wellbeing 0:49:25 – Jo's 3 Sticky Notes of advice
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Join The Conversation Find Andy Goram on LinkedIn here Listen to the Podcast on YouTube here Follow the Podcast on Instagram here Follow the Podcast on Twitter here Follow the Podcast on Facebook here Check out the Bizjuicer website here Get a free consultation with Andy here Check out the Bizjuicer blog here Download the podcast here ----more---- Useful Links Follow Dr. Jo Burrell on LinkedIn here Find the Ultimate Resilience website here ----more---- Full Episode TranscriptGet the full transcript of the episode here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work, and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Ok then, why is it still seen as unprofessional to cry at work?
When the UK Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, teared up during Prime Minister's question times recently, it wasn't her policy that made the headlines, it was her emotion.
(01:29):
The backlash was mixed, loud, swift and revealing.
It left many of us wondering, including myself, why is it still not ok to show emotion at work?
And maybe even more importantly, what's the cost of pretending we're all fine all of the time?
(01:51):
My guest today is Dr Jo Burrell, a clinical psychologist, former NHS frontline practitioner and now a specialist in something you've probably never heard of but absolutely should, HR Supervision.
That's right, she works with the people who hold the emotional weight of entire organisations, the ones expected to be the calm in the storm, the trusted go-to, the fixers.
(02:19):
But Jo's latest survey of nearly 1,500 HR professionals reveals a worrying truth.
HR is struggling.
High workloads, poor leadership, toxic cultures, lack of recognition, emotional exhaustion.
Now you might say, well that's just like everyone else, but they're the ones being asked to design the wellbeing strategy for the rest of us.
(02:44):
Now overlay that with a recent study from Oxford University tracking over 46,000 UK employees and I'm afraid it gets worse.
It found that most workplace wellbeing initiatives, stuff like mindfulness apps, resilience workshops, stress coaching, they actually deliver no meaningful improvement in mental health or job satisfaction.
(03:07):
Some even cause more problems.
If the people who create wellbeing programs are being burned out and the programs themselves aren't working, then something my friends is seriously broken.
In this episode, we're going to pull back the curtain on the personal, emotional and ethical toll of being the fixer.
(03:28):
We unpack the flaws in current wellbeing strategies and we ask what real human-centred support looks like, not just for HR, but for everyone.
Welcome to the show, Jo.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Really cool to have you.
HR as a department and as a bunch of people comes up a fair amount in this series of podcasts, but I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation today to hear about some of the struggles within that department, not just from a structural perspective, but what's actually going on inside.
(04:03):
So I'm fascinated to hear that.
Before we dive into that sort of stuff, Jo, would you mind just giving my audience a better introduction to you and what you're doing today?
Sure.
So, as you said, I'm a clinical psychologist by background and that means I spent most of my career working in the NHS in mental health services as a clinician and a leader.
(04:27):
Around 12 years ago, I set up a business called Ultimate Resilience alongside my business partner, Dr. Felicity Baker, who's also a clinical psychologist.
And we set up our business because we were finding in our clinics in the NHS that we were seeing lots of people whose difficulties had their origin at work.
So they were coming with significant symptoms of depression, anxiety, maybe even trauma, certainly workplace stress.
(04:56):
And the source of their difficulties was at work.
And the sort of business model, the delivery model in the NHS is such that you can't really go into organisations and tackle that source.
And so we were really interested in doing that, really, because actually, if you can tackle the problem at source, then you're preventing potentially thousands and thousands of people turning up in NHS services with significant mental health problems.
(05:22):
So we've been delivering resilience training and coaching for the last 10 years or so, really aimed at that, preventing the worst effects of stress, preventing the build-up of stress and that becoming then more serious mental health problems.
(05:44):
And then we became particularly interested in HR professionals and their mental wellbeing around the time of the pandemic, because we found that this was a function which typically came to us to commission our services and weren't necessarily utilising them.
(06:04):
But suddenly during the pandemic, they were starting to ask for help for themselves.
And we became very interested in why that was happening.
I'm sure we'll talk about what happened next later on.
But yeah, that's how we started to become interested in specifically the mental wellbeing of HR professionals.
(06:26):
And yet we absolutely will get into that today.
But I also think, personally, you are a very well-known thought leader and advocate on these topics.
You've recently picked up HR's Most Influencing Person type award, which is fantastic.
Tell us a little bit about that.
So that's HR Magazine's HR Most Influential Thinker list.
(06:50):
So they have two lists.
They have a practitioner list and a thinker list.
So I was named on that list for the first time this year.
And actually, my business partner Felicity was named on that list last year.
So between us, we've picked up 2024 and 2025.
And it's different from a lot of other awards because it's peer-nominated, though it's not one of those awards where you have to pay to be...
(07:14):
I was going to say, you buy it.
Yeah.
And so, I mean, I don't know who nominated me.
And then, you know, the nominations are kind of analysed by a professional company, you know, who do that kind of thing.
So I feel very honoured to have received that award, actually, because I know that it is you know, a set of awards that are, you know, have a lot of kudos and credibility.
(07:44):
And, you know, it's a sign that the work that we're doing is being heard.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's great.
And it's nice for me over the years to look at that list and see the number of people that have come on and taken time out to chat to me about some stuff.
So it's wonderful.
Fantastic.
Congratulations.
Absolutely fantastic.
(08:04):
Where to start?
Well, I mentioned right at the top of the introduction, the whole Rachel Reeves thing.
And actually, you did a LinkedIn post, drawing attention to that very issue.
And I guess that's a good enough place to start as any.
What made you write that post?
What was behind it for you?
(08:25):
Well, I think it kind of, it wrangled me, you know, for the response.
I saw what was going on in the media.
And I suppose it sort of touched on something that concerns me greatly, which is that I think we live in a very name-blame-shame kind of culture.
And the media sort of exacerbates that often, not always.
(08:47):
It depends on what kind of media outlet we're talking about.
But they settle on things that they know are going to incite strong feeling and can often be critical before they are compassionate or understanding.
And so what happened was, you know, within minutes, we were seeing, you know, pictures of a woman in distress and critical headlines and suggestions that she should leave, you know, that she should be leaving her job because she was displaying a human emotion.
(09:19):
That was the majority of the conversation afterwards.
I mean, I remember listening to the radio and every sort of pundit was like, well, when's she going?
Clearly it's too much.
Yes, absolutely.
And, you know, as a clinical psychologist who's worked with people and their emotions the whole of my career, I just felt like, you know, that's really rubbish.
(09:40):
And, you know, so what if she cried?
Yeah.
But I suppose it also spoke to something for me about women in leadership roles and the different ways in which, you know, men and women express themselves and the ways in which we've been socialised.
And all of those sorts of things.
So it felt like an attack on her as a woman, as well as an attack on her as a human being who experiences emotions just like everyone else.
(10:07):
You think it exposed some, I'm going to say, and they're not hidden, but some real truths about culture and the expectations of what professionalism still means today in the workplace.
Absolutely.
And I think those expectations and those kind of stereotypes hurt everyone, not just women.
(10:30):
You know, the sort of stereotypical kind of template that leaders, you know, are expected to fit into is someone who's very stoic, you know, someone who stays strong and calm and copes regardless of what happens, who, you know, who's decisive, who's, you know, can't be confused.
(10:54):
You can't have a wobble.
You know, can't have an off day.
And I don't think that template, that stereotype serves anyone really.
But I think it's informed by male stereotypes and it's informed by the expectations that are placed on men, which are that you shouldn't show any emotions unless they are aggression-related emotions.
(11:21):
It almost sounds prehistoric still, doesn't it?
It does feel a bit weird.
But as somebody who sits, listens, dives into, explores emotions with people on a regular professional basis, I mean, that's such a wonderfully complex, interesting topic.
(11:41):
But yet it seems like a taboo when it comes to the workplace.
Why do you think we still have such a problem talking about dealing with, facing into emotions in the workplace?
I think because we, particularly those sorts of emotions like sadness and grief and that kind of thing, I think that they have very negative connotations to us in our culture.
(12:07):
And I'd be interested, you know, sort of just struck me talking about it, I'd be interested to know about, you know, whether there are other cultures across the globe where expressing sadness is seen as a strength.
The ability to cry is seen as a strength because I think we automatically in this culture feel that it's a weakness to show that we're sad or to show other types of emotions, even things like anxiety, you know, to show that we're stressed, to show that we're anxious, to show that we're down.
(12:39):
And I think that expectation is there both outside and in work, but it's kind of magnified in work because it's overlaid with these expectations of professionalism and professionalism is associated with holding it together and keep it going and being on your A game all the time and, you know, that kind of stuff.
(13:02):
So these two things are sort of conflated, aren't they?
And like I say, I don't think it serves anyone, doesn't serve individuals and it doesn't serve organisations either because if we're busy trying to kind of control our emotions and, you know, repress them, then that just comes out in all sorts of other ways.
(13:24):
You know, one of the articles that I contributed to, I talked about, you know, on the back of that post, I talked about how, you know, if we're, you know, repressing those feelings, then it can lead to fracture and conflict and tensions between people.
So it's not useful to the wider organisation, let alone the individual.
(13:47):
No, it isn't.
And I think this thing about professionalism almost results in this feeling of depersonalisation.
So, you know, to be professional, you've got to park your emotions.
Why?
Why leave the very, very best part, the defining part of you at the door when it comes to that sort of stuff?
(14:08):
Why not lean into it?
I mean, I think it's, I find it really interesting, particularly in some of the rooms that I work in with groups where the topics can get emotional.
People show emotion because they're human.
But it's really interesting to see the reaction of people in the room when those things happen.
(14:29):
There is such a mix in the room.
People who have real empathy and want to understand and help.
And those are almost repulsed by the idea of someone being that human in the room.
Yes.
Fascinating stuff, really.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think actually, I was thinking about how there's also another thing going on, which is that it feels to me like in the workplace that we're increasingly expected to act as if we are a kind of mechanistic function within the workplace, just like your sort of conveyor belt.
(15:08):
Yeah.
We just churn out work.
And that dehumanises us, obviously.
And that if that conveyor belt breaks down, all you've got to do is sort of put a bit of oil on it and it'll start back up again.
And actually, we are, as human beings, so much more complex and nuanced than that.
(15:33):
And as you're implying, actually, why don't we lean into that and embrace that?
But also, if you want the best out of your people, that is not to treat them like machines.
It's to acknowledge and recognise that they are human beings and that they, as human beings, one of the defining features of being a human being is that we experience emotion.
(15:55):
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
I really think it's interesting because it goes up and down the chain in the room.
I'll often get sort of, if you like, managers and that sort of fraternity go, the leaders need to understand our emotions better.
They need to understand and have some empathy.
But at the same time, then that group of people expect the leaders to never make a mistake, to be bang on it the whole time and know everything about everything.
(16:20):
And so we're all kind of in this horrible soup of misunderstanding and misconception and need and want.
It's just a really interesting thing.
I'm really interested in your thought, though, and that's something for me to go away and think about what other cultures hold up this stuff as being, you know, pillars of their culture.
(16:44):
It's good to share this stuff.
It's fantastic to show this level of emotion.
I don't know.
But it does ask another question for me is, in your work, where do you think we need to pay attention to try and reframe this use of emotion as a human strength and a part of our difference?
(17:08):
Where do you think we need to start that reframing process?
I mean, everywhere.
You know, we talk about culture, don't we?
And how important culture is.
And it's really at the heart of that, isn't it?
That we create cultures in which we recognise and acknowledge humans as humans.
(17:29):
And that we create environments in which we can, you know, be our authentic selves.
And, you know, sometimes I feel like that sort of idea of the authentic self is a bit of a sort of trope, isn't it?
And it happened.
And the reality of being human, and this speaks to the complexity that I was talking about earlier.
You know, the reality of being a human being is that we are actually playing, we are in roles, aren't we?
(17:53):
We are stepping into different roles in different, you know, environments, different situations in our lives.
So we, who the authentic person is in the midst of all of those roles that we are kind of putting on, is a puzzling question.
I'm playing when I'm a parent, when I'm a granddaughter, when I'm a, you know, when I'm a, you know, a community leader, when I'm a psychologist, when I'm at a party, when I'm a, you know.
(18:22):
So yeah, so I think that notion of the authentic self is kind of thorny, isn't it?
I think it is that it comes back to what I was saying before about acknowledging and recognising that the human being part of the organisation isn't exactly that, it's human, it's not a machine.
And there feels like, it feels to me there's an increasing trend to kind of push us into acting as if we are robots, you know, as if we are machines.
(18:51):
And that just denies, it denies everything about our uniqueness, you know, as a species.
I think you're 100% right on the authentic trope, because you might not like me in my, if I'm being really authentic in a certain situation.
And actually that could be very unhelpful in some situations.
(19:11):
So I think it's interesting.
This emotional intelligence stuff, a lot of the work that I try and do and associates that I work with try and do around helping people have more effective cultures is absolutely trying to tune into the human nature of all of this stuff.
That's not making excuses for things, it's just trying to elicit the best response from somebody and by putting them in an environment where they feel safe and confident and trusted, you know?
(19:37):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
And where they can build trust.
Because of course, if you put people in a situation when they feel under threat, they don't perform at their best.
That's the bottom line, isn't it?
Absolutely.
And that's a great link actually, Jo, under pressure, under threat.
Because let's turn our attention to really, I think the meat and bones of this conversation today in having a look under the bonnet at HR.
(20:04):
I mean, you've just got the results of your big survey.
What's it said?
Why have you got to the conclusion that HR is struggling?
What are the headlines?
So as you said, we had 1,421 respondents to our survey.
Beautiful.
We designed it so that it kind of really delved into mental health presentations like depression, anxiety, burnout, psychological well-being.
(20:34):
And we actually use clinical measures for some of those because we've experienced in using those kind of questionnaires and measures within our clinical work.
And so what we found was pretty shocking, actually.
I mean, it chimed with what we were hearing.
But of course, you never know whether when you do a piece of research, whether what you're going to reveal is going to be consistent with what you're hearing out there amongst people.
(21:03):
Anyway, so what we found was 44% met the threshold for clinical symptoms of depression.
And that is two and a half times higher than the general population.
Wow.
That's a rate two and a half times higher than the general population.
And 38% had clinically significant levels of anxiety.
(21:26):
And that is one and a half times higher than the general population.
63% were very likely experiencing burnout.
And a further 15% were at risk of burnout.
67% were in the category for low well-being.
(21:47):
42% were considering leaving the profession.
87% felt that support for their mental well-being at work was insufficient to some degree.
So what we have is a picture of a group of people who are struggling really quite significantly, but where there isn't a matching degree of support for them.
(22:16):
You know, actually what we know, and again, I'll go back to the anecdotal, but you know, I was at an event a year or so ago, and I was chatting to an HR professional about, you know, well-being in HR.
And she said, oh, you know, we've got a coaching service in our organisation, but like, I never think that it's something for me, you know, that it's a service for me.
(22:40):
So they put themselves at the back of the queue, you know, I think that's one of the issues.
And, but, you know, there is, I don't think the kind of right services available for them either, because they're doing a very specific job.
But yeah, so this picture reveals, you know, very high rates of distress, low rates of support.
(23:05):
And what we found actually in terms of support, and I think this was a really, really interesting finding.
We found that of those people who were experiencing good levels of support, people who said, yes, I feel very well supported at work, and that was only 13% of our respondents.
Amongst those people, they were far less likely to be experiencing mental health difficulties.
(23:29):
They were far less likely to be thinking about leaving the profession, and they were far less likely to have taken time off sick in the previous year due to stress or anything mental health related.
So what that tells us is that support is a hugely important ingredient in protecting individuals, but also the business, because of course, those are costs to the business, aren't they?
(23:53):
If people are suffering with their mental health, if they're thinking about leaving or actively leaving, and if they're off sick.
The associated costs of turnover or retention, whichever way you want to look at it, retraining, I mean, they're some of the biggest people costs that businesses experience.
And to get the distortion or the inflation of those costs based on some of these statistics, that's an awful lot of money.
(24:18):
It's an awful lot of profit threatening the P&Ls of a lot of businesses there in the numbers that you're saying.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
The theory behind the survey, Jo, were you just trying to get a sort of state of the nation with regards to this HR population?
Is that what was behind it?
Yeah, so I was saying earlier that we noticed this kind of uptick in the numbers of HR professionals who were coming to us asking for some support and help.
(24:47):
And that was a shift in what we'd seen before.
We'd never really seen that before.
And as clinical psychologists, we train in research methods.
So the first thing we do is go and look at the evidence, what data's out there.
So we sought to find what data, have a look to see what data was out there about the mental wellbeing of HR professionals.
(25:07):
And actually what happens if you put into Google HR wellbeing or HR mental health, what you get is lots of information for HR professionals about how they can look after other people's mental health and wellbeing.
Nothing about them and their mental health.
And there was nothing, from what we could gather.
So we just thought, well, let's do a survey ourselves.
(25:29):
And this survey that we're talking about today is the second iteration of that.
So we did the first one in 2023 and we had a hundred respondents.
So it was a much smaller scale.
It was a bit of a pilot.
We were just trying it out.
But what it revealed was very similar data, very similar figures to what we've got this time.
So it felt like it was shining a spotlight on a problem that was probably much bigger.
(25:54):
And it certainly was revealing something that it felt had been sort of hidden.
And we hear this all the time, since we've been focusing much more on HR professionals, we just hear it all the time that people just feel they've not felt confident or they fear the consequences of speaking up and saying, I'm struggling.
(26:15):
It has been a very hidden problem.
And I think that also that, you know, they're the people you go to for help.
They're not the people that we expect to have the problems.
I think this is the question I wanted to ask really, Jo, is I think the stark thing in those numbers is not just the headline numbers, but their disproportionate effect versus the rest of the population.
That's really interesting.
(26:38):
But without wanting to sound like an idiot, why is it so significant that this particular group of people are struggling to that degree?
What's your insight into that?
Well, I mean, I think there are lots of factors.
I could talk to you for the rest of the day, just to make it a question.
(26:59):
But I think what we have is a profession that has seen a real broadening of its remit.
I think that they've been at the eye of the storm when it comes to the pandemic.
So let's start there.
Yeah.
They were like the key workers.
They were the frontline workers.
(27:20):
And we don't think about them and how they were, all the stuff that was in their laps during the pandemic.
We think about NHS workers and supermarket staff and public transport workers and that kind of thing.
We don't think about HR professionals.
So again, an example of how their experiences are hidden.
But a lot of stuff landed on their plates during the pandemic.
(27:41):
And then from then on, there's been really no let up.
We've had a cost of living crisis.
We had obviously all the hybrid working stuff and they've got policies and procedures that they've got to bring in.
We've had the great resignation.
We've had new employment law on the horizon.
And so there's this huge range of issues, pressures that are around and this kind of gradually broadening remit.
(28:07):
And it's not necessarily a bad thing that this is a profession that's become much more professionalized.
It was essentially an admin role some years back and it's become more professionalized.
And like I said, I don't think that's a bad thing because this is a group of people who now have much more influence and are often being the voice of the people within the organization.
(28:34):
Although there again is one of the other challenges.
There's a conflict.
They've walked this kind of very delicate tightrope between the concerns and needs of the organization and those of the people.
And I think that throws up all sorts of ethical dilemmas for them.
Oh, for sure.
I think that point about the growing remit is interesting as well because it feels, in lots of the conversations we've had on this podcast, some of the issue must come down to this department in transition that it feels like HR is in.
(29:09):
A certain degree of certainty must be being put at risk within that department because remit changes.
One day you're supposed to be hard-nosed policies and benefits and I'm holding out the next you're supposed to be there to look after somebody who's having an emotional breakdown.
The role is changed.
(29:29):
Cultures often defaulted to HR when that's ridiculous.
That is not a thing that should be defaulted to anybody.
So there is quite a lot of turmoil in the background, as well as the obvious front-facing things, isn't there?
Yes, absolutely.
And I think that there's a big emotional toll.
I think that there is an increasing expectation that the workplace picks up and deals with the distress of the workforce and that there's an increasing degree of distress amongst workforces because we're living in very uncertain times, in very frightening times at the moment.
(30:06):
And so certainly mental health issues are on the increase and HR professionals, what I hear from them is they are the first port of call when someone's got an issue, whether it's domestic abuse, whether it's someone who's suicidal, whether it's someone who's got terminal cancer.
(30:28):
They are the first port of call and they may not be going on and doing a piece of counselling work with that individual.
But even just having a conversation with someone who's going through that type of thing is a distressing thing to experience.
Of course, it's an emotional conversation and this must be where your work comes in.
(30:49):
So tell us about HR Supervision.
What is it?
What's involved?
What's it trying to help with?
Clue us in.
Sure.
So Supervision is something that I have delivered and received all the way through my career as a clinician.
So when I trained as a clinical psychologist, I trained as part of that core training, I trained in the skills of supervision.
(31:16):
And the model in my profession is that you train in that approach because then it becomes a self-sustaining system of support of personal and professional development.
I'm ready once I qualify to supervise people who are coming up behind me and the people who are ahead of me are supervising me.
So it's a brilliant system.
(31:37):
It's completely self-sustaining.
It operates at no cost to your organisation because you're supervising each other often.
I mean, sometimes there are costs because you have to get external supervisors in, but generally speaking, it's a great system.
And I looked at HR.
We looked at HR when we started to uncover this degree of distress that was going on.
And we said, where's their source of support?
(32:01):
Why have they not got this kind of system of support that we've had through our careers that has served this incredibly important function?
You know, it's a personal and professional development tool, system.
And it's called that because it's there to develop you in your professional skills, your technical skills, but it's also there for you personally.
(32:25):
And so, you know, if I had a particularly tricky session with a client, you know, when I was doing therapy work, I had supervision there to talk about the impact of that on me, what it felt like, you know, about the distress, how difficult it was.
I could also talk about how I might work with that person going forwards, you know, the sort of tools and techniques that I might need.
(32:48):
And the fact that I could have that conversation in work, in work time, meant that I could process that emotional impact.
I could put it to bed and I could go home at the end of the day, knowing that, you know, I dealt with it.
And actually, that meant that my free time was there for me to recuperate, to rest, relax, and, you know, it can then help me to be ready to perform at my best when I go back to work the next day.
(33:15):
And we just thought, you know, this is so lacking in HR.
So we're trained supervisors.
This is what we're going to deliver.
Love it.
Love it.
What, Jo, in all of that work, are some of the most common things that you're having to deal with?
(33:36):
Things that perhaps now echoed in the results of your survey?
Well, I think that the, generally, the sort of motivating factor that brings people to us is around their people's well-being.
So people who are kind of, know they're on the road to burnout, you know, potentially, or who are, you know, struggling and they're noticing the signs.
(33:59):
So that tends to be the sort of, the thing that brings them to us.
Although we're working with both individuals and teams, and I would say it's, in that case, it's the individuals who are motivated by that.
When it's teams, it's often the, you know, the team manager who's realizing that actually the content of what people are dealing with is distressing and difficult, is having an emotional impact.
(34:25):
But interestingly, and so that's where we start, but interestingly, while we will probably spend some time supporting someone to build, to address that set of issues around potential, you know, looming burnout or, you know, that kind of thing.
So we're thinking about setting boundaries and, and, you know, doing all sorts of things that, you know, we can put in place to protect people and their well-being.
(34:49):
What we are going on then to talk about is some of those things that contribute to the the challenging nature of the job.
So the tricky conversations, you know, I mean, I just took two supervision sessions yesterday and both of them were about having a tricky conversation with someone.
In one case, it was having a tricky conversation with the CEO of this company that I work in.
(35:14):
The other was having a tricky conversation with an employee.
So it was, how do I approach this?
What do I say?
What's going on here in the dynamic?
So I thought we're kind of bringing our psychological skills and we're helping people to sort of unpick that, you know, that interpersonal challenge, which I think is a big source of the stress and difficulty that's, you know, around in HR.
(35:40):
So we're just, we're walking alongside, we're giving space to reflect, we're giving space to problem solve.
And I think we're also work so busy nowadays and HR is absolutely no exception.
In fact, 50% of our respondents said workload was their biggest source of stress.
You know, we're all so busy nowadays that we really lack that space to reflect and to think through and to problem solve.
(36:07):
And that's what HR supervision becomes.
So it starts, you know, how do we look after you and protect your wellbeing?
And then it moves on to the kind of interpersonal challenges that people are facing.
Ethical dilemmas is another one, you know, space just to think through, what should I do in this situation?
There's no real right answer, but let's think together so that we can confidently go forward and say, that probably is the right way forward here.
(36:34):
I think it's fascinating because there's lots of differences and parallels with some of the more generalised challenges that I see in my work about difficult conversations and building trust and having an effective confrontation and all those sorts of bits and pieces.
But this is now wrapped up in internal people issues, ethical issues, and also carrying multiple emotional loads of other people when you're dealing with these things.
(37:00):
And this supervision thing, in my head at least, certainly feels like a far more targeted, intentional mentoring and coaching programme where someone's really got to find, still got to find the solutions ultimately for themselves, but they're getting a strong steer and support from you.
Absolutely.
(37:21):
And I think that is the job of the supervisor.
Like I said, it's to walk alongside and to kind of facilitate.
And I think we're using lots of coaching techniques and skills.
We're using mentoring, techniques and skills.
I think we're using some ingredients of counselling too because of the fact that we're bringing some emotional stuff.
(37:42):
I spoke to someone last week who was experiencing something personal that was impacting on their work.
And we talked about that and how difficult and painful that was and what the impact was and how they might go forwards with it and how they might function at work despite that difficult thing.
There's some elements of counselling in there too.
(38:03):
But that's what it's meant to be.
Supervision is meant to be a place where you can talk about yourself and you can bring yourself, going back to the conversation about the authentic self and your emotions.
It goes back to that too, doesn't it?
I think that's all about that safe space.
And not underestimating the benefit and power of time to reflect.
(38:24):
With workload and everything else you've mentioned, it is often, that's the bit that goes missing.
The ability to try and do that emotional intelligence, rationalising of what's actually happening rather than just living in the frenzied moment and just constantly reacting to everything, which is just draining us of all sorts of energy and causing lots of problems.
(38:45):
I think it's fascinating.
And you've mentioned the wellbeing word quite a lot.
And I think this is another fascinating area, a whole other episode, I'm sure.
But I referenced the Oxford University sort of research centre piece of research that basically sort of said that a lot of these wellbeing, I can't even use the word strategies.
(39:06):
Let's just say activities are not doing anything.
And in some cases, actually causing problems.
I wonder if that's what you're seeing, that the issues that are coming through, there's a more systemic problem here.
There's a lot of performative, superficial perks and stuff associated with wellbeing, which is why I think wellbeing gets a bad rap in a lot of cases.
(39:32):
And I tried to find alternative research studies to give a counter view.
And there's not lots, to be fair.
I mean, the bits I could find were the usual suspects of Deloitte and Harvard Business Review, who all seem to point to, look, wellbeing is important, but actually the movement comes from more systemic, strategic issues to address within workplace design, job design, leadership behaviour, cultural environment.
(40:02):
I'm fascinated to get your thought on this as somebody who's right inside what's going on right now.
Yeah, it's fascinating for me coming from a healthcare background.
You know, I worked in the NHS for well over 20 years.
And when we started working in the workplace setting, I have to say I was extremely shocked at how behind.
(40:27):
So, you know, that sounds really bad.
You know, how ill-informed workplaces were about how you support people's health and wellbeing, how you address it when it's in crisis, how you prevent health and wellbeing issues from developing in the first place.
And I'm not blaming them for that because actually what happened was a pandemic happened.
(40:51):
And, you know, it became suddenly the job of workplaces to really focus on this much more.
They weren't really thinking about it before that because the NHS was dealing with it or someone else was dealing with it.
But suddenly it became something, you know, a central thing that they had to be offering to their employees.
(41:14):
And so, you know, they are on the back foot and they're learning.
And I think that's what I've seen really is that I think what happens first of all, when you're presented with a problem and you don't really know what to do with it, is you go, oh, what's out there already?
What are other people doing?
And you go, oh, well, then I'll do that.
(41:36):
So there's been a lot of that going on.
There is, yeah.
There's been a lot of picking up the latest thing because it looks shiny and it's, you know, it's been marketed really in a really slick fashion.
There's been a lot of that going on.
There's been a lot of grabbing for stuff because we just need to find a solution as quickly as possible.
And, you know, we know that that doesn't work.
(41:59):
It doesn't work.
And so, although when that research came out from Oxford, that, you know, although lots of people were saying, well, this proves that well-being initiatives just don't work at all.
I felt that, you know, that's not the right outcome.
That's not the right conclusion.
The right conclusion is that, you know, is actually we've not, the technology is not advanced enough.
(42:24):
You know, we're not thinking in a, particularly in a more strategic way about how we address these issues.
And certainly one of their conclusions is that actually initiatives that are targeted at a more systemic level are more effective.
And so, you know, that gives us some answers already, doesn't it?
You know?
I think it does.
I mean, there are parallels in the Engage for Success survey that's been done post-pandemic on a number of occasions looking at the, much like your survey actually, in that where people felt safe, in a good place, supported, well-being was taken seriously, their likelihood to remain much higher, their engagement much higher, issues of stress burnout much lower.
(43:12):
But I think I am in your, I'm in your court here because I think we've almost come full circle in this conversation.
The conversation we had about emotions and why we don't touch that, it's a bit difficult.
And then you come into the well-being stuff.
Well, there's a quick bolt on, there's a quick kind of plaster I can kind of take here, rub my hands of it.
I've given you some well-being stuff, get on with it.
(43:35):
Why on earth is that going to help someone in their emotional state?
It's support and understanding, I think that's required in these situations.
And as we learn from lots of these conversations, there are so many unique nuances and differences between people.
Why would we think an app is going to solve the world when it comes to this stuff?
I don't know.
(43:55):
It seems a bit daft to me.
I don't like to sort of leave these podcast episodes on sort of niggie notes of this is rubbish or what.
I try and think about where do we go and what practical steps can people take?
And from all the things that you've ended up dealing with in all of your career and certainly where your focus is now, where do you think organisations can start to think about the root cause of some of these things rather than plaster on the things that we see?
(44:29):
Where can they start to reduce the emotional burden?
And we're talking about HR, so let's focus in on that, on this HR group.
Where do we start with that?
In terms of looking after HR, do you mean?
Yeah, I think trying to reduce that emotional burden.
Is that even possible?
Well, I think we have to acknowledge it first.
Yeah.
I think that's one of the problems that HR professionals face is that it's not been acknowledged.
(44:55):
And so if it's not acknowledged, then they feel like they have no voice, they have no permission to say this is a problem for me.
I'm struggling here.
And if organisations are able to acknowledge it and say, we recognise that your job comes with a load of emotional labour.
If they're able to acknowledge and recognise that, then sort of automatically something else has to follow on, doesn't it?
(45:19):
If we're acknowledging that your job comes with that emotional labour and actually the existence of supervision for me in my career did exactly that.
Yeah.
Presence of it said to me, you know, your job's going to have an impact on you.
And therefore, here's a thing that's going to support you with that.
And so that's what we need to see in organisations is that, first of all, that acknowledgement and recognition.
(45:46):
This is a reality of doing this job.
Therefore, what are we going to do about it?
That leads to a solution, doesn't it?
I think that's right.
I think that combination of acknowledgement, understanding, but the support mechanisms behind there to find different, better, suitable, relevant ways forward.
(46:09):
Interesting.
I can't help but not hide from the fact that, or hide from the fact that other departments are going to say, yeah, well, what about us?
And I think this is what's really interesting.
I don't think what we're saying, I hope not what we're saying here today is, by the way, HR are the only people that need looking after HR.
I've got all the problems.
We're just sort of really honing in the emotional toll specific to this particular profession.
(46:34):
It's not to say that other parts of the organization aren't feeling similar things and that they're somehow less important.
It's just, let's just have a look at this department and sort of, because they're at the heart of all of these things.
And if this lot are burnt out, stressed, not coping, then the support that they give the rest of the organization is going to be, well, not very good.
(46:58):
It's not going to be healthy itself, right?
To quote someone who did a post recently on LinkedIn, they said, if HR are burning out, the whole organization's on fire.
So I can't take credit for that quote, with a brilliant one.
And that's it, you know, because HR are playing this job of holding everyone up, of looking after everyone, of holding everyone, of making sure everything runs the way that it needs to, right through from advertising and recruitment through to exiting, you know, they're there all the way along the life cycle of the employee, aren't they?
(47:36):
So, and if they're struggling, then actually the ripple effect is massive.
But to your point about, you know, wellbeing more broadly, like, you know, as I said earlier, workload came out as the top source of stress for our survey respondents.
We know that's mirrored across the workforce.
(47:57):
We know that workload is one of the, you know, is identified already as the top source of stress for people across the organization.
So there are a load of things that can be done, right, across the organization that HR professionals could benefit from.
I just think that HR are a particular case in point.
I think they need something specific.
I think the nature of their job, you know, a lot of what they're doing is confidential.
(48:21):
Yeah, that comes with its own pressures and emotions, right?
Exactly.
It brings its own pressures and emotions, but it also means they can't really realistically be in a room with someone else receiving a wellbeing initiative.
You know, that's not going to work.
It doesn't feel comfortable.
It doesn't feel right.
So, you know, there's sort of boundaries, professional boundaries there that need to be maintained.
(48:42):
And so I just think this is a group that needs something very specific.
And so I think, and it needs to be tailored to them and their needs.
But there are huge needs right across the organisation, absolutely, in terms of wellbeing.
Jo, in an attempt to try and bring this episode to a positive close, I've come to the part of the show I call sticky notes.
(49:06):
So this is where I'm looking for your absolute pearls of wisdom that we could fit on three little sticky notes and we'll put them on the Instagram channel.
Thinking about if we could take the wellbeing of people more seriously at work, what would your three bits of advice be?
I think my first bit of advice would be define wellbeing.
(49:30):
Because...
Great start.
Because we actually don't have an agreed definition of wellbeing.
So as an organisation, the onus is on you to define what you mean by wellbeing.
Let's not just bandy about the word wellbeing because it doesn't really mean anything.
Yeah.
Be strategic.
That's my second point.
(49:50):
I mean, I just read today, literally, that the CIPD had done some research which found that 50% of organisations said that they had a wellbeing strategy.
Now, I have to say, I do not believe that.
Wow.
I mean, like I say, I've been working in this area for about 12 years.
I've worked with, I don't know, 150 organisations.
(50:12):
I've met thousands.
I'm on a panel, a judging panel for wellbeing awards.
The number of organisations that have a substantive wellbeing strategy, not a plan, a strategy...
Exactly.
...is sparse.
It's minimal.
So really think about your strategy.
(50:33):
So define wellbeing.
Yeah.
Be strategic and remember people are human.
Really?
Just that.
I mean, the whole world would be better, Jo, if everybody kind of took stock and realised that at time to time.
Listen, three fabulously simple but powerful sticky notes there.
(50:56):
Thank you so much for taking time out of, I know, your very, very busy schedule to come and sit down and talk to us today.
Really appreciate it.
Before I let you go, Jo, if people would like to find out a bit more about you, a bit more about HR supervision, where can they find you?
Where should they go?
So our website is ultimateresilience.co.uk and you can download our HR Mental Wellbeing Report from there on the homepage.
(51:21):
There's a button you can press and you can download it from there and you can learn about HR supervision on that website too.
If you're interested in HR wellbeing, I'm talking about it a lot on LinkedIn.
So you can come and follow me and join me on LinkedIn.
I am Dr Jo Burrell on LinkedIn.
So please, you know, come and say hello.
(51:43):
Well, I'll put all those links in the show notes too.
Jo, thank you so much for coming on.
It's been an absolute delight to have you here.
Thanks very much for your time.
Thank you so much for having me.
Okay, see you soon.
Okay, that was Dr Jo Burrell and if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the topics that we've talked about in today's episode, please check out the show notes.
(52:09):
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast.
(52:33):
Until next time, thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from the inside out.
I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and create tons more success for everyone.
(00:39):
This podcast is for all those who believe that's something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses, the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work, and where more customers stay with you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it.
(01:03):
So if you want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on.
Ok then, why is it still seen as unprofessional to cry at work?
When the UK Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, teared up during Prime Minister's question times recently, it wasn't her policy that made the headlines, it was her emotion.
(01:29):
The backlash was mixed, loud, swift and revealing.
It left many of us wondering, including myself, why is it still not ok to show emotion at work?
And maybe even more importantly, what's the cost of pretending we're all fine all of the time?
(01:51):
My guest today is Dr Jo Burrell, a clinical psychologist, former NHS frontline practitioner and now a specialist in something you've probably never heard of but absolutely should, HR Supervision.
That's right, she works with the people who hold the emotional weight of entire organisations, the ones expected to be the calm in the storm, the trusted go-to, the fixers.
(02:19):
But Jo's latest survey of nearly 1,500 HR professionals reveals a worrying truth.
HR is struggling.
High workloads, poor leadership, toxic cultures, lack of recognition, emotional exhaustion.
Now you might say, well that's just like everyone else, but they're the ones being asked to design the wellbeing strategy for the rest of us.
(02:44):
Now overlay that with a recent study from Oxford University tracking over 46,000 UK employees and I'm afraid it gets worse.
It found that most workplace wellbeing initiatives, stuff like mindfulness apps, resilience workshops, stress coaching, they actually deliver no meaningful improvement in mental health or job satisfaction.
(03:07):
Some even cause more problems.
If the people who create wellbeing programs are being burned out and the programs themselves aren't working, then something my friends is seriously broken.
In this episode, we're going to pull back the curtain on the personal, emotional and ethical toll of being the fixer.
(03:28):
We unpack the flaws in current wellbeing strategies and we ask what real human-centred support looks like, not just for HR, but for everyone.
Welcome to the show, Jo.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's great to be here.
Really cool to have you.
HR as a department and as a bunch of people comes up a fair amount in this series of podcasts, but I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation today to hear about some of the struggles within that department, not just from a structural perspective, but what's actually going on inside.
(04:03):
So I'm fascinated to hear that.
Before we dive into that sort of stuff, Jo, would you mind just giving my audience a better introduction to you and what you're doing today?
Sure.
So, as you said, I'm a clinical psychologist by background and that means I spent most of my career working in the NHS in mental health services as a clinician and a leader.
(04:27):
Around 12 years ago, I set up a business called Ultimate Resilience alongside my business partner, Dr. Felicity Baker, who's also a clinical psychologist.
And we set up our business because we were finding in our clinics in the NHS that we were seeing lots of people whose difficulties had their origin at work.
So they were coming with significant symptoms of depression, anxiety, maybe even trauma, certainly workplace stress.
(04:56):
And the source of their difficulties was at work.
And the sort of business model, the delivery model in the NHS is such that you can't really go into organisations and tackle that source.
And so we were really interested in doing that, really, because actually, if you can tackle the problem at source, then you're preventing potentially thousands and thousands of people turning up in NHS services with significant mental health problems.
(05:22):
So we've been delivering resilience training and coaching for the last 10 years or so, really aimed at that, preventing the worst effects of stress, preventing the build-up of stress and that becoming then more serious mental health problems.
(05:44):
And then we became particularly interested in HR professionals and their mental wellbeing around the time of the pandemic, because we found that this was a function which typically came to us to commission our services and weren't necessarily utilising them.
(06:04):
But suddenly during the pandemic, they were starting to ask for help for themselves.
And we became very interested in why that was happening.
I'm sure we'll talk about what happened next later on.
But yeah, that's how we started to become interested in specifically the mental wellbeing of HR professionals.
(06:26):
And yet we absolutely will get into that today.
But I also think, personally, you are a very well-known thought leader and advocate on these topics.
You've recently picked up HR's Most Influencing Person type award, which is fantastic.
Tell us a little bit about that.
So that's HR Magazine's HR Most Influential Thinker list.
(06:50):
So they have two lists.
They have a practitioner list and a thinker list.
So I was named on that list for the first time this year.
And actually, my business partner Felicity was named on that list last year.
So between us, we've picked up 2024 and 2025.
And it's different from a lot of other awards because it's peer-nominated, though it's not one of those awards where you have to pay to be...
(07:14):
I was going to say, you buy it.
Yeah.
And so, I mean, I don't know who nominated me.
And then, you know, the nominations are kind of analysed by a professional company, you know, who do that kind of thing.
So I feel very honoured to have received that award, actually, because I know that it is you know, a set of awards that are, you know, have a lot of kudos and credibility.
(07:44):
And, you know, it's a sign that the work that we're doing is being heard.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's great.
And it's nice for me over the years to look at that list and see the number of people that have come on and taken time out to chat to me about some stuff.
So it's wonderful.
Fantastic.
Congratulations.
Absolutely fantastic.
(08:04):
Where to start?
Well, I mentioned right at the top of the introduction, the whole Rachel Reeves thing.
And actually, you did a LinkedIn post, drawing attention to that very issue.
And I guess that's a good enough place to start as any.
What made you write that post?
What was behind it for you?
(08:25):
Well, I think it kind of, it wrangled me, you know, for the response.
I saw what was going on in the media.
And I suppose it sort of touched on something that concerns me greatly, which is that I think we live in a very name-blame-shame kind of culture.
And the media sort of exacerbates that often, not always.
(08:47):
It depends on what kind of media outlet we're talking about.
But they settle on things that they know are going to incite strong feeling and can often be critical before they are compassionate or understanding.
And so what happened was, you know, within minutes, we were seeing, you know, pictures of a woman in distress and critical headlines and suggestions that she should leave, you know, that she should be leaving her job because she was displaying a human emotion.
(09:19):
That was the majority of the conversation afterwards.
I mean, I remember listening to the radio and every sort of pundit was like, well, when's she going?
Clearly it's too much.
Yes, absolutely.
And, you know, as a clinical psychologist who's worked with people and their emotions the whole of my career, I just felt like, you know, that's really rubbish.
(09:40):
And, you know, so what if she cried?
Yeah.
But I suppose it also spoke to something for me about women in leadership roles and the different ways in which, you know, men and women express themselves and the ways in which we've been socialised.
And all of those sorts of things.
So it felt like an attack on her as a woman, as well as an attack on her as a human being who experiences emotions just like everyone else.
(10:07):
You think it exposed some, I'm going to say, and they're not hidden, but some real truths about culture and the expectations of what professionalism still means today in the workplace.
Absolutely.
And I think those expectations and those kind of stereotypes hurt everyone, not just women.
(10:30):
You know, the sort of stereotypical kind of template that leaders, you know, are expected to fit into is someone who's very stoic, you know, someone who stays strong and calm and copes regardless of what happens, who, you know, who's decisive, who's, you know, can't be confused.
(10:54):
You can't have a wobble.
You know, can't have an off day.
And I don't think that template, that stereotype serves anyone really.
But I think it's informed by male stereotypes and it's informed by the expectations that are placed on men, which are that you shouldn't show any emotions unless they are aggression-related emotions.
(11:21):
It almost sounds prehistoric still, doesn't it?
It does feel a bit weird.
But as somebody who sits, listens, dives into, explores emotions with people on a regular professional basis, I mean, that's such a wonderfully complex, interesting topic.
(11:41):
But yet it seems like a taboo when it comes to the workplace.
Why do you think we still have such a problem talking about dealing with, facing into emotions in the workplace?
I think because we, particularly those sorts of emotions like sadness and grief and that kind of thing, I think that they have very negative connotations to us in our culture.
(12:07):
And I'd be interested, you know, sort of just struck me talking about it, I'd be interested to know about, you know, whether there are other cultures across the globe where expressing sadness is seen as a strength.
The ability to cry is seen as a strength because I think we automatically in this culture feel that it's a weakness to show that we're sad or to show other types of emotions, even things like anxiety, you know, to show that we're stressed, to show that we're anxious, to show that we're down.
(12:39):
And I think that expectation is there both outside and in work, but it's kind of magnified in work because it's overlaid with these expectations of professionalism and professionalism is associated with holding it together and keep it going and being on your A game all the time and, you know, that kind of stuff.
(13:02):
So these two things are sort of conflated, aren't they?
And like I say, I don't think it serves anyone, doesn't serve individuals and it doesn't serve organisations either because if we're busy trying to kind of control our emotions and, you know, repress them, then that just comes out in all sorts of other ways.
(13:24):
You know, one of the articles that I contributed to, I talked about, you know, on the back of that post, I talked about how, you know, if we're, you know, repressing those feelings, then it can lead to fracture and conflict and tensions between people.
So it's not useful to the wider organisation, let alone the individual.
(13:47):
No, it isn't.
And I think this thing about professionalism almost results in this feeling of depersonalisation.
So, you know, to be professional, you've got to park your emotions.
Why?
Why leave the very, very best part, the defining part of you at the door when it comes to that sort of stuff?
(14:08):
Why not lean into it?
I mean, I think it's, I find it really interesting, particularly in some of the rooms that I work in with groups where the topics can get emotional.
People show emotion because they're human.
But it's really interesting to see the reaction of people in the room when those things happen.
(14:29):
There is such a mix in the room.
People who have real empathy and want to understand and help.
And those are almost repulsed by the idea of someone being that human in the room.
Yes.
Fascinating stuff, really.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think actually, I was thinking about how there's also another thing going on, which is that it feels to me like in the workplace that we're increasingly expected to act as if we are a kind of mechanistic function within the workplace, just like your sort of conveyor belt.
(15:08):
Yeah.
We just churn out work.
And that dehumanises us, obviously.
And that if that conveyor belt breaks down, all you've got to do is sort of put a bit of oil on it and it'll start back up again.
And actually, we are, as human beings, so much more complex and nuanced than that.
(15:33):
And as you're implying, actually, why don't we lean into that and embrace that?
But also, if you want the best out of your people, that is not to treat them like machines.
It's to acknowledge and recognise that they are human beings and that they, as human beings, one of the defining features of being a human being is that we experience emotion.
(15:55):
Yeah.
I think it's really interesting.
I really think it's interesting because it goes up and down the chain in the room.
I'll often get sort of, if you like, managers and that sort of fraternity go, the leaders need to understand our emotions better.
They need to understand and have some empathy.
But at the same time, then that group of people expect the leaders to never make a mistake, to be bang on it the whole time and know everything about everything.
(16:20):
And so we're all kind of in this horrible soup of misunderstanding and misconception and need and want.
It's just a really interesting thing.
I'm really interested in your thought, though, and that's something for me to go away and think about what other cultures hold up this stuff as being, you know, pillars of their culture.
(16:44):
It's good to share this stuff.
It's fantastic to show this level of emotion.
I don't know.
But it does ask another question for me is, in your work, where do you think we need to pay attention to try and reframe this use of emotion as a human strength and a part of our difference?
(17:08):
Where do you think we need to start that reframing process?
I mean, everywhere.
You know, we talk about culture, don't we?
And how important culture is.
And it's really at the heart of that, isn't it?
That we create cultures in which we recognise and acknowledge humans as humans.
(17:29):
And that we create environments in which we can, you know, be our authentic selves.
And, you know, sometimes I feel like that sort of idea of the authentic self is a bit of a sort of trope, isn't it?
And it happened.
And the reality of being human, and this speaks to the complexity that I was talking about earlier.
You know, the reality of being a human being is that we are actually playing, we are in roles, aren't we?
(17:53):
We are stepping into different roles in different, you know, environments, different situations in our lives.
So we, who the authentic person is in the midst of all of those roles that we are kind of putting on, is a puzzling question.
I'm playing when I'm a parent, when I'm a granddaughter, when I'm a, you know, when I'm a, you know, a community leader, when I'm a psychologist, when I'm at a party, when I'm a, you know.
(18:22):
So yeah, so I think that notion of the authentic self is kind of thorny, isn't it?
I think it is that it comes back to what I was saying before about acknowledging and recognising that the human being part of the organisation isn't exactly that, it's human, it's not a machine.
And there feels like, it feels to me there's an increasing trend to kind of push us into acting as if we are robots, you know, as if we are machines.
(18:51):
And that just denies, it denies everything about our uniqueness, you know, as a species.
I think you're 100% right on the authentic trope, because you might not like me in my, if I'm being really authentic in a certain situation.
And actually that could be very unhelpful in some situations.
(19:11):
So I think it's interesting.
This emotional intelligence stuff, a lot of the work that I try and do and associates that I work with try and do around helping people have more effective cultures is absolutely trying to tune into the human nature of all of this stuff.
That's not making excuses for things, it's just trying to elicit the best response from somebody and by putting them in an environment where they feel safe and confident and trusted, you know?
(19:37):
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
And where they can build trust.
Because of course, if you put people in a situation when they feel under threat, they don't perform at their best.
That's the bottom line, isn't it?
Absolutely.
And that's a great link actually, Jo, under pressure, under threat.
Because let's turn our attention to really, I think the meat and bones of this conversation today in having a look under the bonnet at HR.
(20:04):
I mean, you've just got the results of your big survey.
What's it said?
Why have you got to the conclusion that HR is struggling?
What are the headlines?
So as you said, we had 1,421 respondents to our survey.
Beautiful.
We designed it so that it kind of really delved into mental health presentations like depression, anxiety, burnout, psychological well-being.
(20:34):
And we actually use clinical measures for some of those because we've experienced in using those kind of questionnaires and measures within our clinical work.
And so what we found was pretty shocking, actually.
I mean, it chimed with what we were hearing.
But of course, you never know whether when you do a piece of research, whether what you're going to reveal is going to be consistent with what you're hearing out there amongst people.
(21:03):
Anyway, so what we found was 44% met the threshold for clinical symptoms of depression.
And that is two and a half times higher than the general population.
Wow.
That's a rate two and a half times higher than the general population.
And 38% had clinically significant levels of anxiety.
(21:26):
And that is one and a half times higher than the general population.
63% were very likely experiencing burnout.
And a further 15% were at risk of burnout.
67% were in the category for low well-being.
(21:47):
42% were considering leaving the profession.
87% felt that support for their mental well-being at work was insufficient to some degree.
So what we have is a picture of a group of people who are struggling really quite significantly, but where there isn't a matching degree of support for them.
(22:16):
You know, actually what we know, and again, I'll go back to the anecdotal, but you know, I was at an event a year or so ago, and I was chatting to an HR professional about, you know, well-being in HR.
And she said, oh, you know, we've got a coaching service in our organisation, but like, I never think that it's something for me, you know, that it's a service for me.
(22:40):
So they put themselves at the back of the queue, you know, I think that's one of the issues.
And, but, you know, there is, I don't think the kind of right services available for them either, because they're doing a very specific job.
But yeah, so this picture reveals, you know, very high rates of distress, low rates of support.
(23:05):
And what we found actually in terms of support, and I think this was a really, really interesting finding.
We found that of those people who were experiencing good levels of support, people who said, yes, I feel very well supported at work, and that was only 13% of our respondents.
Amongst those people, they were far less likely to be experiencing mental health difficulties.
(23:29):
They were far less likely to be thinking about leaving the profession, and they were far less likely to have taken time off sick in the previous year due to stress or anything mental health related.
So what that tells us is that support is a hugely important ingredient in protecting individuals, but also the business, because of course, those are costs to the business, aren't they?
(23:53):
If people are suffering with their mental health, if they're thinking about leaving or actively leaving, and if they're off sick.
The associated costs of turnover or retention, whichever way you want to look at it, retraining, I mean, they're some of the biggest people costs that businesses experience.
And to get the distortion or the inflation of those costs based on some of these statistics, that's an awful lot of money.
(24:18):
It's an awful lot of profit threatening the P&Ls of a lot of businesses there in the numbers that you're saying.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
The theory behind the survey, Jo, were you just trying to get a sort of state of the nation with regards to this HR population?
Is that what was behind it?
Yeah, so I was saying earlier that we noticed this kind of uptick in the numbers of HR professionals who were coming to us asking for some support and help.
(24:47):
And that was a shift in what we'd seen before.
We'd never really seen that before.
And as clinical psychologists, we train in research methods.
So the first thing we do is go and look at the evidence, what data's out there.
So we sought to find what data, have a look to see what data was out there about the mental wellbeing of HR professionals.
(25:07):
And actually what happens if you put into Google HR wellbeing or HR mental health, what you get is lots of information for HR professionals about how they can look after other people's mental health and wellbeing.
Nothing about them and their mental health.
And there was nothing, from what we could gather.
So we just thought, well, let's do a survey ourselves.
(25:29):
And this survey that we're talking about today is the second iteration of that.
So we did the first one in 2023 and we had a hundred respondents.
So it was a much smaller scale.
It was a bit of a pilot.
We were just trying it out.
But what it revealed was very similar data, very similar figures to what we've got this time.
So it felt like it was shining a spotlight on a problem that was probably much bigger.
(25:54):
And it certainly was revealing something that it felt had been sort of hidden.
And we hear this all the time, since we've been focusing much more on HR professionals, we just hear it all the time that people just feel they've not felt confident or they fear the consequences of speaking up and saying, I'm struggling.
(26:15):
It has been a very hidden problem.
And I think that also that, you know, they're the people you go to for help.
They're not the people that we expect to have the problems.
I think this is the question I wanted to ask really, Jo, is I think the stark thing in those numbers is not just the headline numbers, but their disproportionate effect versus the rest of the population.
That's really interesting.
(26:38):
But without wanting to sound like an idiot, why is it so significant that this particular group of people are struggling to that degree?
What's your insight into that?
Well, I mean, I think there are lots of factors.
I could talk to you for the rest of the day, just to make it a question.
(26:59):
But I think what we have is a profession that has seen a real broadening of its remit.
I think that they've been at the eye of the storm when it comes to the pandemic.
So let's start there.
Yeah.
They were like the key workers.
They were the frontline workers.
(27:20):
And we don't think about them and how they were, all the stuff that was in their laps during the pandemic.
We think about NHS workers and supermarket staff and public transport workers and that kind of thing.
We don't think about HR professionals.
So again, an example of how their experiences are hidden.
But a lot of stuff landed on their plates during the pandemic.
(27:41):
And then from then on, there's been really no let up.
We've had a cost of living crisis.
We had obviously all the hybrid working stuff and they've got policies and procedures that they've got to bring in.
We've had the great resignation.
We've had new employment law on the horizon.
And so there's this huge range of issues, pressures that are around and this kind of gradually broadening remit.
(28:07):
And it's not necessarily a bad thing that this is a profession that's become much more professionalized.
It was essentially an admin role some years back and it's become more professionalized.
And like I said, I don't think that's a bad thing because this is a group of people who now have much more influence and are often being the voice of the people within the organization.
(28:34):
Although there again is one of the other challenges.
There's a conflict.
They've walked this kind of very delicate tightrope between the concerns and needs of the organization and those of the people.
And I think that throws up all sorts of ethical dilemmas for them.
Oh, for sure.
I think that point about the growing remit is interesting as well because it feels, in lots of the conversations we've had on this podcast, some of the issue must come down to this department in transition that it feels like HR is in.
(29:09):
A certain degree of certainty must be being put at risk within that department because remit changes.
One day you're supposed to be hard-nosed policies and benefits and I'm holding out the next you're supposed to be there to look after somebody who's having an emotional breakdown.
The role is changed.
(29:29):
Cultures often defaulted to HR when that's ridiculous.
That is not a thing that should be defaulted to anybody.
So there is quite a lot of turmoil in the background, as well as the obvious front-facing things, isn't there?
Yes, absolutely.
And I think that there's a big emotional toll.
I think that there is an increasing expectation that the workplace picks up and deals with the distress of the workforce and that there's an increasing degree of distress amongst workforces because we're living in very uncertain times, in very frightening times at the moment.
(30:06):
And so certainly mental health issues are on the increase and HR professionals, what I hear from them is they are the first port of call when someone's got an issue, whether it's domestic abuse, whether it's someone who's suicidal, whether it's someone who's got terminal cancer.
(30:28):
They are the first port of call and they may not be going on and doing a piece of counselling work with that individual.
But even just having a conversation with someone who's going through that type of thing is a distressing thing to experience.
Of course, it's an emotional conversation and this must be where your work comes in.
(30:49):
So tell us about HR Supervision.
What is it?
What's involved?
What's it trying to help with?
Clue us in.
Sure.
So Supervision is something that I have delivered and received all the way through my career as a clinician.
So when I trained as a clinical psychologist, I trained as part of that core training, I trained in the skills of supervision.
(31:16):
And the model in my profession is that you train in that approach because then it becomes a self-sustaining system of support of personal and professional development.
I'm ready once I qualify to supervise people who are coming up behind me and the people who are ahead of me are supervising me.
So it's a brilliant system.
(31:37):
It's completely self-sustaining.
It operates at no cost to your organisation because you're supervising each other often.
I mean, sometimes there are costs because you have to get external supervisors in, but generally speaking, it's a great system.
And I looked at HR.
We looked at HR when we started to uncover this degree of distress that was going on.
And we said, where's their source of support?
(32:01):
Why have they not got this kind of system of support that we've had through our careers that has served this incredibly important function?
You know, it's a personal and professional development tool, system.
And it's called that because it's there to develop you in your professional skills, your technical skills, but it's also there for you personally.
(32:25):
And so, you know, if I had a particularly tricky session with a client, you know, when I was doing therapy work, I had supervision there to talk about the impact of that on me, what it felt like, you know, about the distress, how difficult it was.
I could also talk about how I might work with that person going forwards, you know, the sort of tools and techniques that I might need.
(32:48):
And the fact that I could have that conversation in work, in work time, meant that I could process that emotional impact.
I could put it to bed and I could go home at the end of the day, knowing that, you know, I dealt with it.
And actually, that meant that my free time was there for me to recuperate, to rest, relax, and, you know, it can then help me to be ready to perform at my best when I go back to work the next day.
(33:15):
And we just thought, you know, this is so lacking in HR.
So we're trained supervisors.
This is what we're going to deliver.
Love it.
Love it.
What, Jo, in all of that work, are some of the most common things that you're having to deal with?
(33:36):
Things that perhaps now echoed in the results of your survey?
Well, I think that the, generally, the sort of motivating factor that brings people to us is around their people's well-being.
So people who are kind of, know they're on the road to burnout, you know, potentially, or who are, you know, struggling and they're noticing the signs.
(33:59):
So that tends to be the sort of, the thing that brings them to us.
Although we're working with both individuals and teams, and I would say it's, in that case, it's the individuals who are motivated by that.
When it's teams, it's often the, you know, the team manager who's realizing that actually the content of what people are dealing with is distressing and difficult, is having an emotional impact.
(34:25):
But interestingly, and so that's where we start, but interestingly, while we will probably spend some time supporting someone to build, to address that set of issues around potential, you know, looming burnout or, you know, that kind of thing.
So we're thinking about setting boundaries and, and, you know, doing all sorts of things that, you know, we can put in place to protect people and their well-being.
(34:49):
What we are going on then to talk about is some of those things that contribute to the the challenging nature of the job.
So the tricky conversations, you know, I mean, I just took two supervision sessions yesterday and both of them were about having a tricky conversation with someone.
In one case, it was having a tricky conversation with the CEO of this company that I work in.
(35:14):
The other was having a tricky conversation with an employee.
So it was, how do I approach this?
What do I say?
What's going on here in the dynamic?
So I thought we're kind of bringing our psychological skills and we're helping people to sort of unpick that, you know, that interpersonal challenge, which I think is a big source of the stress and difficulty that's, you know, around in HR.
(35:40):
So we're just, we're walking alongside, we're giving space to reflect, we're giving space to problem solve.
And I think we're also work so busy nowadays and HR is absolutely no exception.
In fact, 50% of our respondents said workload was their biggest source of stress.
You know, we're all so busy nowadays that we really lack that space to reflect and to think through and to problem solve.
(36:07):
And that's what HR supervision becomes.
So it starts, you know, how do we look after you and protect your wellbeing?
And then it moves on to the kind of interpersonal challenges that people are facing.
Ethical dilemmas is another one, you know, space just to think through, what should I do in this situation?
There's no real right answer, but let's think together so that we can confidently go forward and say, that probably is the right way forward here.
(36:34):
I think it's fascinating because there's lots of differences and parallels with some of the more generalised challenges that I see in my work about difficult conversations and building trust and having an effective confrontation and all those sorts of bits and pieces.
But this is now wrapped up in internal people issues, ethical issues, and also carrying multiple emotional loads of other people when you're dealing with these things.
(37:00):
And this supervision thing, in my head at least, certainly feels like a far more targeted, intentional mentoring and coaching programme where someone's really got to find, still got to find the solutions ultimately for themselves, but they're getting a strong steer and support from you.
Absolutely.
(37:21):
And I think that is the job of the supervisor.
Like I said, it's to walk alongside and to kind of facilitate.
And I think we're using lots of coaching techniques and skills.
We're using mentoring, techniques and skills.
I think we're using some ingredients of counselling too because of the fact that we're bringing some emotional stuff.
(37:42):
I spoke to someone last week who was experiencing something personal that was impacting on their work.
And we talked about that and how difficult and painful that was and what the impact was and how they might go forwards with it and how they might function at work despite that difficult thing.
There's some elements of counselling in there too.
(38:03):
But that's what it's meant to be.
Supervision is meant to be a place where you can talk about yourself and you can bring yourself, going back to the conversation about the authentic self and your emotions.
It goes back to that too, doesn't it?
I think that's all about that safe space.
And not underestimating the benefit and power of time to reflect.
(38:24):
With workload and everything else you've mentioned, it is often, that's the bit that goes missing.
The ability to try and do that emotional intelligence, rationalising of what's actually happening rather than just living in the frenzied moment and just constantly reacting to everything, which is just draining us of all sorts of energy and causing lots of problems.
(38:45):
I think it's fascinating.
And you've mentioned the wellbeing word quite a lot.
And I think this is another fascinating area, a whole other episode, I'm sure.
But I referenced the Oxford University sort of research centre piece of research that basically sort of said that a lot of these wellbeing, I can't even use the word strategies.
(39:06):
Let's just say activities are not doing anything.
And in some cases, actually causing problems.
I wonder if that's what you're seeing, that the issues that are coming through, there's a more systemic problem here.
There's a lot of performative, superficial perks and stuff associated with wellbeing, which is why I think wellbeing gets a bad rap in a lot of cases.
(39:32):
And I tried to find alternative research studies to give a counter view.
And there's not lots, to be fair.
I mean, the bits I could find were the usual suspects of Deloitte and Harvard Business Review, who all seem to point to, look, wellbeing is important, but actually the movement comes from more systemic, strategic issues to address within workplace design, job design, leadership behaviour, cultural environment.
(40:02):
I'm fascinated to get your thought on this as somebody who's right inside what's going on right now.
Yeah, it's fascinating for me coming from a healthcare background.
You know, I worked in the NHS for well over 20 years.
And when we started working in the workplace setting, I have to say I was extremely shocked at how behind.
(40:27):
So, you know, that sounds really bad.
You know, how ill-informed workplaces were about how you support people's health and wellbeing, how you address it when it's in crisis, how you prevent health and wellbeing issues from developing in the first place.
And I'm not blaming them for that because actually what happened was a pandemic happened.
(40:51):
And, you know, it became suddenly the job of workplaces to really focus on this much more.
They weren't really thinking about it before that because the NHS was dealing with it or someone else was dealing with it.
But suddenly it became something, you know, a central thing that they had to be offering to their employees.
(41:14):
And so, you know, they are on the back foot and they're learning.
And I think that's what I've seen really is that I think what happens first of all, when you're presented with a problem and you don't really know what to do with it, is you go, oh, what's out there already?
What are other people doing?
And you go, oh, well, then I'll do that.
(41:36):
So there's been a lot of that going on.
There is, yeah.
There's been a lot of picking up the latest thing because it looks shiny and it's, you know, it's been marketed really in a really slick fashion.
There's been a lot of that going on.
There's been a lot of grabbing for stuff because we just need to find a solution as quickly as possible.
And, you know, we know that that doesn't work.
(41:59):
It doesn't work.
And so, although when that research came out from Oxford, that, you know, although lots of people were saying, well, this proves that well-being initiatives just don't work at all.
I felt that, you know, that's not the right outcome.
That's not the right conclusion.
The right conclusion is that, you know, is actually we've not, the technology is not advanced enough.
(42:24):
You know, we're not thinking in a, particularly in a more strategic way about how we address these issues.
And certainly one of their conclusions is that actually initiatives that are targeted at a more systemic level are more effective.
And so, you know, that gives us some answers already, doesn't it?
You know?
I think it does.
I mean, there are parallels in the Engage for Success survey that's been done post-pandemic on a number of occasions looking at the, much like your survey actually, in that where people felt safe, in a good place, supported, well-being was taken seriously, their likelihood to remain much higher, their engagement much higher, issues of stress burnout much lower.
(43:12):
But I think I am in your, I'm in your court here because I think we've almost come full circle in this conversation.
The conversation we had about emotions and why we don't touch that, it's a bit difficult.
And then you come into the well-being stuff.
Well, there's a quick bolt on, there's a quick kind of plaster I can kind of take here, rub my hands of it.
I've given you some well-being stuff, get on with it.
(43:35):
Why on earth is that going to help someone in their emotional state?
It's support and understanding, I think that's required in these situations.
And as we learn from lots of these conversations, there are so many unique nuances and differences between people.
Why would we think an app is going to solve the world when it comes to this stuff?
I don't know.
(43:55):
It seems a bit daft to me.
I don't like to sort of leave these podcast episodes on sort of niggie notes of this is rubbish or what.
I try and think about where do we go and what practical steps can people take?
And from all the things that you've ended up dealing with in all of your career and certainly where your focus is now, where do you think organisations can start to think about the root cause of some of these things rather than plaster on the things that we see?
(44:29):
Where can they start to reduce the emotional burden?
And we're talking about HR, so let's focus in on that, on this HR group.
Where do we start with that?
In terms of looking after HR, do you mean?
Yeah, I think trying to reduce that emotional burden.
Is that even possible?
Well, I think we have to acknowledge it first.
Yeah.
I think that's one of the problems that HR professionals face is that it's not been acknowledged.
(44:55):
And so if it's not acknowledged, then they feel like they have no voice, they have no permission to say this is a problem for me.
I'm struggling here.
And if organisations are able to acknowledge it and say, we recognise that your job comes with a load of emotional labour.
If they're able to acknowledge and recognise that, then sort of automatically something else has to follow on, doesn't it?
(45:19):
If we're acknowledging that your job comes with that emotional labour and actually the existence of supervision for me in my career did exactly that.
Yeah.
Presence of it said to me, you know, your job's going to have an impact on you.
And therefore, here's a thing that's going to support you with that.
And so that's what we need to see in organisations is that, first of all, that acknowledgement and recognition.
(45:46):
This is a reality of doing this job.
Therefore, what are we going to do about it?
That leads to a solution, doesn't it?
I think that's right.
I think that combination of acknowledgement, understanding, but the support mechanisms behind there to find different, better, suitable, relevant ways forward.
(46:09):
Interesting.
I can't help but not hide from the fact that, or hide from the fact that other departments are going to say, yeah, well, what about us?
And I think this is what's really interesting.
I don't think what we're saying, I hope not what we're saying here today is, by the way, HR are the only people that need looking after HR.
I've got all the problems.
We're just sort of really honing in the emotional toll specific to this particular profession.
(46:34):
It's not to say that other parts of the organization aren't feeling similar things and that they're somehow less important.
It's just, let's just have a look at this department and sort of, because they're at the heart of all of these things.
And if this lot are burnt out, stressed, not coping, then the support that they give the rest of the organization is going to be, well, not very good.
(46:58):
It's not going to be healthy itself, right?
To quote someone who did a post recently on LinkedIn, they said, if HR are burning out, the whole organization's on fire.
So I can't take credit for that quote, with a brilliant one.
And that's it, you know, because HR are playing this job of holding everyone up, of looking after everyone, of holding everyone, of making sure everything runs the way that it needs to, right through from advertising and recruitment through to exiting, you know, they're there all the way along the life cycle of the employee, aren't they?
(47:36):
So, and if they're struggling, then actually the ripple effect is massive.
But to your point about, you know, wellbeing more broadly, like, you know, as I said earlier, workload came out as the top source of stress for our survey respondents.
We know that's mirrored across the workforce.
(47:57):
We know that workload is one of the, you know, is identified already as the top source of stress for people across the organization.
So there are a load of things that can be done, right, across the organization that HR professionals could benefit from.
I just think that HR are a particular case in point.
I think they need something specific.
I think the nature of their job, you know, a lot of what they're doing is confidential.
(48:21):
Yeah, that comes with its own pressures and emotions, right?
Exactly.
It brings its own pressures and emotions, but it also means they can't really realistically be in a room with someone else receiving a wellbeing initiative.
You know, that's not going to work.
It doesn't feel comfortable.
It doesn't feel right.
So, you know, there's sort of boundaries, professional boundaries there that need to be maintained.
(48:42):
And so I just think this is a group that needs something very specific.
And so I think, and it needs to be tailored to them and their needs.
But there are huge needs right across the organisation, absolutely, in terms of wellbeing.
Jo, in an attempt to try and bring this episode to a positive close, I've come to the part of the show I call sticky notes.
(49:06):
So this is where I'm looking for your absolute pearls of wisdom that we could fit on three little sticky notes and we'll put them on the Instagram channel.
Thinking about if we could take the wellbeing of people more seriously at work, what would your three bits of advice be?
I think my first bit of advice would be define wellbeing.
(49:30):
Because...
Great start.
Because we actually don't have an agreed definition of wellbeing.
So as an organisation, the onus is on you to define what you mean by wellbeing.
Let's not just bandy about the word wellbeing because it doesn't really mean anything.
Yeah.
Be strategic.
That's my second point.
(49:50):
I mean, I just read today, literally, that the CIPD had done some research which found that 50% of organisations said that they had a wellbeing strategy.
Now, I have to say, I do not believe that.
Wow.
I mean, like I say, I've been working in this area for about 12 years.
I've worked with, I don't know, 150 organisations.
(50:12):
I've met thousands.
I'm on a panel, a judging panel for wellbeing awards.
The number of organisations that have a substantive wellbeing strategy, not a plan, a strategy...
Exactly.
...is sparse.
It's minimal.
So really think about your strategy.
(50:33):
So define wellbeing.
Yeah.
Be strategic and remember people are human.
Really?
Just that.
I mean, the whole world would be better, Jo, if everybody kind of took stock and realised that at time to time.
Listen, three fabulously simple but powerful sticky notes there.
(50:56):
Thank you so much for taking time out of, I know, your very, very busy schedule to come and sit down and talk to us today.
Really appreciate it.
Before I let you go, Jo, if people would like to find out a bit more about you, a bit more about HR supervision, where can they find you?
Where should they go?
So our website is ultimateresilience.co.uk and you can download our HR Mental Wellbeing Report from there on the homepage.
(51:21):
There's a button you can press and you can download it from there and you can learn about HR supervision on that website too.
If you're interested in HR wellbeing, I'm talking about it a lot on LinkedIn.
So you can come and follow me and join me on LinkedIn.
I am Dr Jo Burrell on LinkedIn.
So please, you know, come and say hello.
(51:43):
Well, I'll put all those links in the show notes too.
Jo, thank you so much for coming on.
It's been an absolute delight to have you here.
Thanks very much for your time.
Thank you so much for having me.
Okay, see you soon.
Okay, that was Dr Jo Burrell and if you'd like to find out a bit more about her or any of the topics that we've talked about in today's episode, please check out the show notes.
(52:09):
So that concludes today's episode.
I hope you've enjoyed it, found it interesting and heard something maybe that will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward.
If you have, please like, comment and subscribe.
It really helps.
I'm Andy Goram and you've been listening to the Sticky from the Inside podcast.
(52:33):
Until next time, thanks for listening.
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