November 21, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode, Sticky From The Inside host Andy Goram chats with Mike Horne, author of The People Dividend, about breaking down workplace isolation and building real connection at work. Discover why so many employees feel like "cogs in the machine" and how leaders can change this by embracing dignity, kindness, and respect. Mike and Andy tackle timely issues like AI’s role in the workplace, the potential of a 4-day workweek, and the simple actions that create genuine belonging and engagement. Tune in for some simple, but powerful insights that just might change the way you view work and leadership!
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Key Takeaways- Practical actions to reduce feelings of isolation and create a more connected, human-centred workplace.
- Why small actions like a genuine "hello" can foster inclusion and strengthen team bonds.
- Dignity, kindness, and respect aren’t "soft skills" but essential elements of effective leadership.
- How AI and the 4-day week can either enhance or challenge workplace connection and collaboration.
- Practical ways leaders can shift from viewing employees as resources to recognizing their inherent value.
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Key MomentsThe key moments in this episode are:
00:01:10 - Introduction to Human-Centered Leadership 00:06:56 - Understanding the People Dividend: Mike Horne’s Perspective 00:09:23 - The Role of Human Values in Modern Leadership 00:10:12 - Strategies for Building Connection and Reducing Isolation at Work 00:25:18 - Embracing a 4-Day Workweek and Adapting to AI 00:34:43 - Challenges and Opportunities of Human-Centered Leadership in the AI Era 00:40:34 - Key Takeaways: Cultivating the People Dividend Through Human Values and Leadership
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Join The Conversation Find Andy Goram on LinkedIn here Listen to the Podcast on YouTube here Follow the Podcast on Instagram here Follow the Podcast on Twitter here Follow the Podcast on Facebook here Check out the Bizjuicer website here Get a free consultation with Andy here Check out the Bizjuicer blog here Download the podcast here ----more---- Useful Links Follow Mike Horne on LinkedIn here Find Mike's website here ----more---- Full Episode TranscriptGet the full transcript of the episode here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks
at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from
the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses
turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and
(00:31):
create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's
something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses,
(00:52):
the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with
you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you
want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on. Okay then, have you heard someone
(01:14):
say that they feel like just another cog in the machine? How often have you heard that said?
Even talented, passionate people can end up feeling isolated, disconnected and unappreciated
work, especially in this rapidly changing landscape we're experiencing today. But what if we could
(01:34):
change that? What if we could create workplaces where everyone from top leadership to the very
newest hire feels genuinely seen, valued and connected, no matter who they are or where
they're coming from? In this episode, I am delighted to say I'm joined by Mike Horne,
author of The People Dividend, Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Employee Potential,
(01:59):
who has a bold vision for eliminating isolation at work. Mike believes that to overcome workplace
isolation, we need to stop viewing employees as resources and instead embrace their inherent
value, dignity and potential. And in a world increasingly shaped by AI and the oncoming
(02:21):
promise of a four-day workweek, he says that dignity, kindness and respect are no longer
soft skills but essential components of a leadership style that fosters real connection,
which is bang in line with the sentiment of this podcast. Today, we'll ask some big questions and
try to get to the heart of workplace isolation. What would it take to make everyone feel a true
(02:45):
sense of belonging at work? How can leaders be more human being and less human doing,
as the Dalai Lama famously once said? And as we approach this world where AI is going to handle
more of our tasks, how can we make sure technology strengthens human relationships rather than
undermines them? So, whether you're leading a team, working in one or simply seeking more
(03:12):
meaning in your day-to-day, I think this conversation is for you. I'm hoping Mike's
about to share some transformative insights that could make isolation at work a thing of the past
and inspire each of us to go and play a role in making that happen. Welcome to the show, Mike.
Well, Andy, thank you so much for having me. I am so delighted to be a guest on your podcast
(03:38):
and to join your audience as we discuss all things about human performance and people-centered
performance in organizational life. Andy and I share values, even though we've known each other
briefly. I believe we share a set of humanistic values that are at the center of the work that
(04:03):
Andy does and clearly part of the People Dividend, advancing humanistic values and management
for dignity, kindness, and respect. All topics of my newest book, The People Dividend,
Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Potential. And I am looking forward to discussing those
things with you today, my friend. But before we get into that, why don't you do me a favor?
(04:26):
Introduce yourself properly to the listeners. Give us a little bit about your background
and thinking about the People Dividend itself. What's inspired that piece of work?
I'm described as a coach, mentor, and teacher. So throughout my career, I've looked for roles to
express those talents that I have to develop who I am and what I do as a coach, mentor,
(04:52):
and teacher. So I have a very active executive development and organization development coaching
business. So that's where I give fulfillment to those roles. I am also the program director for
the Graduate Human Resources and Leadership Programs at Golden Gate University in San Francisco.
(05:14):
So there's my full-time teaching expression. I just finished a book chapter yesterday on the
intersection of artificial intelligence, emotional intelligence, and human resources.
It's a topic I've been presenting on at conferences over the last couple of months.
So there's this coaching part, which is my business, my teaching part, my work at Golden
(05:39):
Gate University, and my mentoring activities, of which I have several underway. I'm delighted
to work with those who are developing their careers in learning development and organization
development and setting a foundation for future generations of executive and organization
(06:00):
development consultants. So just a few things going on then in that background.
You know, what I've always learned is that if you want something done, ask a busy person
if you've heard that expression. So, yes. Brilliant. And the People Dividend book itself,
where's that come from? Because I'd like to unpack some of those things in there that you
(06:23):
have written about today and discuss their impact and actually how we can kind of
really foster more of the tenets that you bring out in this book. But was it something that was
always burning inside of you to write this book, or is it something that had to come out because
of certain events? Explain that to me. Well, I think this is a natural extension of my work.
(06:47):
It's an evolution of my last recent book, Integrity by Design, Working and Living Authentically.
So there's an extension there. But I think it grew out of a recent experience where
I was reporting to someone in an organization. And, you know, despite asking for feedback,
(07:09):
despite saying, how am I doing at these regular and routine check-ins? I don't think the guy ever
really cared. I think he had his own set of issues and his own career that he was managing.
So I could have said I was burning down the house or, you know, or inspiring performance
(07:31):
in the organization. I don't think it would have mattered one difference. So it is this feeling of,
you know, what the social psychologists call enemy, this sense of isolation. And I think,
you know, for some people, you know, you might trace it to factory line work.
You know, imagine that you're that person on a production line and you're putting a cap on a
(07:54):
spray can and, you know, there are 150 coming at you at, you know, a rapid clip. There's that kind
of enemy that happens or it might be the isolation of working in the fast food industry. And so if
you want to create engagement, if you want to create the ability of a person to exercise their
(08:18):
discretionary effort at work to bring more of who they are to what they do, then you got to tap
into the people dividend. It's as simple as that. My challenge is we have too many bad managers,
but you know, in a way that's an opportunity for me as a coach.
I think so. Well, I just, we just recorded an episode with Deborah Corey, uh, who spoke about
(08:39):
bad bosses ruin lives. And, uh, I mean, this couldn't be a better kind of, uh, bedfellow,
if you like to, to that episode in terms of highlighting, like you just said,
all those bad behaviors, sometimes well-intentioned, but just,
they don't do great things to people in organizations. And then this conversation
looking at, okay, so how do we bring some of these more human centered behaviors,
(09:04):
really front and center into an organization to, to make everything better?
Well, I have two recommendations in that regard for your audience, Andy, and, uh,
you know, there's so much wisdom to gain from seeking from the inside podcast.
Uh, I would really appreciate that reflection you just shared, uh, with an earlier guest.
Uh, but there are two ways to address this issue of, uh, ending isolation at work,
(09:28):
of making people feel that they matter. The first is that if you're a manager or a leader of people
or just a coworker, for goodness sakes, learn to say hello. Yeah. You know, I think we often
treat people as elements in our production. Where's that report? Did you do this? You know,
nobody really wants to go through it, but the opportunity, you know, the, the act, the behavior
(09:54):
of saying hello is the easiest way to create inclusion. Yeah. Connection. Connection.
And the second thing to do is if you're able to do that, uh, you know,
I mean, when this with all good intention is to get out of your chair.
Now it's so interesting to think about share today. Uh, recently in the news, Starbucks, uh,
(10:19):
announced that they're requiring 3,500 employees to return to work, I guess, in Seattle or wherever
their corporate offices are around the planet, at least three days a week. And it's interesting
to watch social media's take on this and, you know, what we've come to feel about, uh, if you're
in a big corporation and you're lucky enough to have a job that can be done where you think almost
(10:42):
anywhere to, to see what's going on in that regard in terms of our connection. I think this is such
an important thing and a theme that I think runs through your book, because when I, when I researched
your book to me and please correct me if I have this wrong, this sort of like five, five key areas
that I'd like to try and explore through our conversation today. Um, well, that's great. Well,
(11:06):
one of those, I think I mentioned firmly upfront in the introduction, which was this
eliminating isolation in the workplace, right? The first thing that stand out the book, we've
talked a couple of times or mentioned a couple of times about embracing a more human centered
approach to leadership. Um, and then I think we have spoken before and you have spoken
(11:30):
about this journey towards the four day week in the, in the U S which is, you know, I think it's
embryonic in the UK, but it's certainly being talked about more and more coming back to us.
Also some fundamental in my perspective, foundational pieces around human values
and particularly that trust and connection thing, and then how we accelerate the value of people
(11:57):
in an organization, as opposed to seeing them as resources. Those are the sort of
like five key, if you like for me, tenants that came out of the book. Is that,
is that your intention? Have I missed anything in, in that sort of summary?
No, what I would add is just the context of how AI is, is affecting and changing all of those.
(12:19):
And, you know, as I wrote the book over the last year and brought it to market, uh, in November,
2024, uh, really thinking about how AI is impacting jobs. Maybe that will lead to the
four day work week and more automation in organizations, less people are required.
(12:39):
There are some stellar examples that Unilever and IBM, uh, with huge savings of, uh, labor hours,
Unilever has 70,000 hours in labor savings are with the introduction of automation.
So I think that's what I would say is that AI is a huge contributor to all of these things. And
(13:03):
what we know is that, you know, if you have bad news to deliver, send it via machine.
If you have good news to deliver, do it in person, uh, do it in a way that has connection.
And isn't that very similar to what we've been talking about for decades now is that, uh, to
lead with your strengths. And so a few people really work at uncovering them fully. Well,
(13:28):
let's try and dive into some of these topics. Sure. Then Mike, uh, we might mash them up a
little bit and talk about them, but I'm really, I'm interested to really have a look at this,
um, eliminate, eliminating isolation in, in the workplace. Um, from the research that you've done
and the perspective that you come from, what are some of the causes you think known and perhaps
(13:53):
maybe unintentional or even overlooked of the formulation of isolation at work?
One is, um, the dominant tendency of many organizational leaders to demons to have
an extroverted orientation. So I, uh, observe client meetings, sit-in client meetings,
(14:22):
where the senior executive is saying, everyone needs to be back at work. Everyone needs to be
in an office building. And you can see in those meetings where it's driven out of this need,
uh, to connect with people in places in the outer world, as opposed to taking another opportunity
(14:50):
to reinforce what's likely to create more lasting and enduring value, which is all part of the
people dividend in values, mission, and purpose. So that's where we create the greatest alignment
of human effort and human talent. I think what's stuck with me, you know, if we continue to think
about the origin story of the people dividend, I remember one very senior executive succession
(15:13):
planning, uh, executive in a large corporation where I work, who, uh, looked at me with a
straight face and said, you know, if we could figure out a way to make money without people,
we would, you know, pretty cynical perspective. I start with the belief. And I think you share
this, Andy, is that people are at the heart of the enterprise. 100%, my friend, 100%. I think that
(15:37):
is the thing. I think it's also interesting when I was thinking about this isolation at work. And
we will not be isolated anymore, but I remember times personally sitting in a very crowded office
feeling completely isolated and out of it and not connected to anybody around me. I think
(15:59):
the physical presence is one tiny part of the jigsaw. Right.
And in some global corporations where I have a lot of deep experience, um, is that if you're
closer colleague in Zurich, then you do somebody who's two floors down from you.
(16:22):
It's just part of that reality, right? The teams that you work with.
Yeah. And do you think this is what gets to the center of this? And you've used the phrase before
cog in the machine. Do you think this is where, where this sort of stems from just being
a number, uh, not understanding or having your real value recognized in an organization?
(16:44):
Well, it's part of the transformational journey that we've been on in, uh, management and
leadership, you know, moving from an era of efficiency where we're really counting and
more standardized approaches to management. Then, uh, moving towards, uh, customer service
orientation and a more, uh, attempt to be, um, more focused on the bigger variables that might
(17:11):
create change in management and leadership now to moving towards, uh, the AI air.
And that's why I believe these, uh, humanistic values would be, uh, much more important because.
Of the rise of the gig economy as well, given a shorter work week, people will construct,
(17:33):
uh, a brand identities and livelihoods in ways that differ from the, uh, you know, a time when
a more conventional work approach was the only route available.
Yeah. I think this is also what I believe is linked to this human centered leadership thing.
I mean, I, I jokingly mentioned the Dalai Lama before in his, you know, infamous, uh,
(17:58):
human being versus human doing quotation, which I think in the UK, certainly Richard Branson from
absolutely nicked and started to use, um, for, for his own means in, in, in his business. But
from your perspective, when we think about this human centered bit, how does this,
well, how can leaders embody that philosophy genuinely and authentically do you think to
(18:22):
try and help minimize some of this isolation stuff? Right. Understand your role as a coach
and understand your role as a judge. Most managers need to wear both hats and, uh, tend
to focus on the assessment versus the coach hat. Uh, this, these, you have to under, you know,
(18:45):
I think it comes with an awareness that these are not dichotomous. They're not separate. They're not
one, you know, they're all, they're both part of the equation now for managing for team success,
managerial success. And I would imagine that you would advocate like I would for some.
Well, let, let's use a very blunt instrument. Let's say training in these human centered
(19:11):
relationship skills. Uh, I know you're as triggered as I am by the term soft skills,
but I think, I think we have to realize that we can't take for granted that these,
these skills of empathy, respect, dignity, kindness are, are necessarily well understood
(19:32):
concepts. And, and actually people feel like they are equipped to, to bring these to work
and use them effectively. Yes. Do I believe that people are equipped with these inherently
or do you, I mean, I think people generally think they are, but I think evidence would say that we
don't use them well enough in, in, in business. That's an accurate statement. I would concur with
(19:56):
that. Yeah. Uh, I believe that these are inherent, uh, because as a humanist in management is somebody
who believes in the human potential movement that I believe in the inherent worth of the individual.
And therefore, you know, these other things to see a person in process, uh, to see, um,
(20:21):
uh, inclusion and diversity is natural elements of, uh, systems is, is the way that I approach
the world and the kind of clients that I want to work with who are changing the world.
I think this is the thing though, because what I often feel like on this podcast, I'm sure you do
on the people dividend podcast too, that you, I often feel a bit like a fraud because I think I'm
(20:44):
talking about common sense a lot of the time, a lot of the time, which is biased because it's
coming from my, my perspective, but what's the, what have you seen in your work and what do you
do in your work, Mike, to help people perhaps see these things a bit more clearly, uh, practice them
um, so that they can be more effective in, in the day to day. I mean, is it as simple as sitting down
(21:08):
and doing the self-awareness coaching and all those sorts of things, or, or are there other
techniques that you're finding, uh, have a much better lasting effect?
Well, I'm plenty credentialed. Um, I offer three things. Um, you know, I try to keep it simple for
myself. Uh, one is I offer, I, I, I offer executive coaching services. And that means for people who
(21:34):
are founders owners in the C suite or their aspirants to the C suite.
Um, so maybe their VP in an organization. So I offer coaching to those individuals
in three, six or 12 month increments. The second thing that I do is that I offer
(21:59):
leadership development programs to my clients. So a company can engage me for six to 18 months.
I work with a group of people done this in all different kinds of shapes and forms,
working with cohort group, uh, on leadership topics over a course of 16, six to 18 months.
And the third thing that I do is I leverage my expertise in organization development.
(22:23):
Um, got three decades of experience in, uh, organization development, uh, making better
places to work, making places where people do their best work. So I offer, I intervene
in systems, uh, for my, uh, executive clients. I just completed, for example, the redesign of a
research and development organization for one of the biggest, uh, medical device companies,
(22:49):
uh, finished, uh, uh, onboarding of a CEO, uh, recently. So this is the kinds of organization
development services that I provide as well, given the expertise and leverage that I have
as in that field. And so within all of that work, Mike, what are some of the common things that you
see as perhaps barriers to making these human centered values become part of that leadership
(23:17):
toolkit? If you like, is it that people think they're already good at them? People don't see
the value in them or, um, is it something else? What, what, what's going on in the mix? What are
you typically seeing when you're engaging with individual service offering, you know, as an,
as an executive coach, most of the people with whom I work have inherently bad people skills.
(23:45):
Uh, you know, they're very bright people. Uh, they have risen in their fields in science
and technology or in engineering because they are very bright people and very successful
technically at what they do. But we know from, you know, now Warner Burke, 40 years, 45 years of
(24:06):
social science research that promoting people on the basis of their technical skills, isn't
the pathway to leadership. So you have this cream of the crop that I work with,
you know, very successful, uh, scientists, technologists, engineers, for the most part,
finance folks, sales, but very technically successful individuals, um, who still need help.
(24:32):
With, uh, you know, their people skills, you know, for example, a board of directors
engaged me to work with the founder who had grown this business into, uh, you know,
a globally recognized brand very quickly raised a lot of money.
Um, and was no longer effective to scale the business and had a number of, you know,
(24:54):
interpersonal issues with the C-suite team that probably wouldn't be tolerated in many places.
And I've witnessed and experienced up, you know, uh, upfront, I mean, working for some of the
leading technology, engineering, and biotech companies, uh, these kinds of folks. And I love
working with them because they're successful people and they want to do better. And is that.
(25:18):
And again, I'm just really curious when you're, when you, when you're faced with that situation
with someone who is incredibly bright, done very, very well, technically, and they've,
they realize, or they see that they don't have that interpersonal connection or that,
or that set of skills to really engage and inspire and motivate people as, as best they could.
(25:43):
What's the reaction from those individuals and how they got to that point in their career
without being able to hone those things? Do you think?
Or it may be that it's not that they're unable to do those things. It's just that they could
leverage themselves so much more effectively, um, to, uh, drive alignment to organizational
(26:09):
purpose and mission. Yeah. So it's, it's not often that they, these are deficient.
I mean, they're deficient, but they're, but they are observable.
Okay. Well, and recoverable clearly from the work that you do.
Right. Sure. Much, much more difficult in a team development exercise,
uh, to regain trust, uh, you know, in many executive teams, it's not an issue.
(26:33):
Uh, in most C-suite teams, I mean, trust isn't a big issue. I don't think because the
foci of the, the, the focus of the team is just different.
I think I see, I find that really interesting and maybe it's because of relative engagements or,
or businesses that I've worked in or that I have worked with, because sometimes there's
(26:57):
this kind of pseudo mist of trust within a, within a room where there's a lot of nodding
that goes on in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.
But it doesn't necessarily exist outside of that exec room. There's a, their trust means there's a,
a lack of challenge and therefore a lack of commitment in, in, in some of those actions,
which is sometimes, sometimes what you see, I'm really interested to sort of say that in
(27:20):
your experience on the exec, the trust thing doesn't seem to be such a big deal.
Well, it's not that I have to trust you on how you're going to do your job because you know,
you can be responsible for leading the research and development organization. You can be responsible
for leading the finance technical trust. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, what I trust you on is
(27:40):
that we're all aligned on the same mission. And when that falls apart, you're in real trouble.
Yeah. And I think this is what it comes back to right in the, at the heart of it. If that,
if that group aren't aligned and don't have a clear vision and mission and a set of objectives
and strategies that are aligned to those things and a bunch of enabling values and behaviors that
will help you deliver those things in the right way, the wheels come off. I mean, that's, that's
(28:04):
when it starts to get a bit wobbly, right? Sure. And this is, uh, you know, much of the
organization development work in the interventions that I offer is getting people to, uh, alignment,
you know, whether it's a structure issue, whether it's a team development issue, uh, or if it is,
um, a leadership issue, it's around creating a, uh, a shared sense of alignment.
(28:29):
Well, let's maybe move on and think about, I don't know whether it's, it's right. Um, to think about
that the framing of this isolation at work, but also move into that, that topic of the four day
week shifting, and I guess a need for a different sort of collaboration and how that kind of comes
about. So what's going on with the four day week in the, in the U S right now, where, where are we,
(28:50):
what are we heading towards and what challenges and opportunities is that bringing in this context?
Work happens in such variable ways. Uh, there are those who are fortunate to be able to schedule
their work and to adjust their hours as they see fit. Uh, there are others who, uh, you know,
(29:10):
work longer days or fewer days in the office. Uh, you particularly think about that in healthcare
and in first responder situations where people may work, uh, several 12 hour shifts in order for more
flexibility. Um, as with the AI frontier, uh, ahead of us, I think there will be a general
(29:36):
scaling back of a lot of work. We'll have to think about work in newer ways. And that's why
those are three reasons why I think, uh, we're leading towards more of the four day work week,
where we'll see it soon. And so what issues does that present for this, this topic of the potential
to have maybe increased isolation at work with spending maybe less time in that work environment,
(30:01):
maybe being less connected with the people around us. What, what do you see as the
challenges and opportunities there? Well, I see all the opportunities in the people dividend.
So, uh, so, so, so tell us what, what, what that looks like then in terms of, uh, the people
dividend, what, what are, are you asking any, like, what are the, uh, manage managerial mindsets?
(30:26):
Yeah. Are you asking about what the everyday behaviors are? What are you thinking about?
I think it's a combination of those two things, right? What approach we got to bring from a
mindset perspective and how does this stuff show up in some focused, intentional, maybe
differentiated behaviors? Yeah. I'm a big believer that in order to work on mindsets,
work on behaviors first. Um, so that's exactly what I would do is, uh, you know, I'm sort of
(30:54):
an engineer by, uh, by, by design, I think, uh, by, by practice. And I think you want to choose
the most pressing issues that you face in the pursuit of your organization success.
And that once you're able to identify those to see what behaviors are driving you towards
(31:20):
those goals and then what behaviors are opposing your achievement of those goals
and to figure out what the cycle is, what's creating the immunity to make the next step.
And that is, that is the kind of message behind this, this people dividend, right? Recognizing
people for their inherent value and bringing some more human centered values to bring those
(31:45):
things out. Right. And so, yeah, cause, cause some, some greater connections. And so we've
got a four day week heading our way. And at the same time, we've got this, I mean, rapid
explosion of AI support. I mean, you only have to look over, I guess, the oceans to see what's
going over in Japan with society 5.0 and really sort of doubling down on where the AI supports,
(32:12):
I guess, human enjoyment of life. Um, we're at the intersection, I think, of this stuff
starting to balloon. And so what challenges or opportunities does that give to this whole people
dividend, um, situation? Because we've got people on, I mean, no surprise nowadays, you've got the
kind of black and white of it all. It's very binary, you know, AI is going to kill us and
(32:36):
everybody's going to lose their jobs. And the other bit is actually, it's going to release us.
I'm going to have a more creative life and a more balance. And there's all sorts of wonderful
things going to happen. Where do you sit, um, with this and how does it relate to
your work on the people dividend? Well, I noticed as I was speaking at conferences,
uh, over the last few months where there's a lot of conversation in human resources about AI,
(33:01):
some companies, uh, taking the position to, uh, ban it, to not allow its use at work.
Uh, others, uh, turned a blind eye to it. Uh, go ahead, use it on your personal devices,
copy and paste it into, you know, your corporate device. It's fine. Uh, uh, and others have,
uh, taken a completely experimental approach. I think those who take the experimental approach
(33:24):
are those that benefit. So just trying to sort of have a go, see what it does,
integrate different things, see what works, see what benefit. Well, it's fundamentally changed
work. I mean, you know, fewer people write memos. I know. I mean, I use it, I use it tons,
right? I use it tons for putting me in, um, in the ballpark of a piece of work. And if I want to
(33:46):
structure some stuff out, it's great at putting me in the ballpark. I, I, I guess there are other
people who are wholly reliant on it. And some people who, who think it's the devil incarnate.
I mean, I, I think when we think about it from a people perspective, what, what do we see as the,
the, the, the challenges and opportunities specifically with regards to people seeing
(34:08):
their value in the workplace? Are we fundamentally shifting our appreciation of that from
the amount of time you spend doing something, which is still a thing, right? You could be
sitting in the office for eight hours, achieving nothing, but he's worked hard. And yet today,
you've got a piece of software effectively that could, I don't get you there in, in minutes.
(34:28):
Um, who's done the most work who's had the best thing. Are we now looking at real outputs as
opposed to time? How, how are these things challenging us from what you see in the
conversations that you have, Mike? Well, I think you could see them generationally.
They show up different. That's for sure. Uh, people who are, uh, you know, digital nomads
(34:49):
think differently about, um, boomers who are still in the workplace, uh, about millennials
in the workplace. I mean, there's certainly been an evolution into how we conceive of and
think of leadership, you know, certainly moving from more authoritarian styles to influencer
(35:10):
styles. Yeah. Uh, it's just a reality. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's definitely that
generational shift that we're coming through. Do you, do you think with the message of recognizing
human value at work, do you think that AI is going to significantly challenge or enhance that?
(35:33):
Well, a lot of it depends on what gets programmed into the algorithm,
you know, and how we conceive of those. So I think that's certainly, you know, one thing that
we need to be concerned about, but you know, for example, I mean, there are companies that are
using AI right now in, uh, recruiting to scan for emotional intelligence. I mean, I'm, I'm
(35:59):
interested in this paradox. I don't know if it really is a paradox. Maybe I'm overusing a word.
That's a bit grandiose for what it is, but I'm sort of hopeful because that example for me
is where, why I get hopeful in the, in the human AI interaction for me, something like
recruitment in the last few years before necessarily AI for me in the UK. And we've
(36:20):
talked about it on the podcast before. It feels like a broken industry. It's actually taken the
humanistic stuff out of it. It's just chuck your CV into it. The spiders will crawl all over it.
And if you're lucky, it'll pop out the other end of something. Somebody might have a look at,
and then might have a conversation with you. The human connection of that whole recruitment piece
in many cases seems to have been lost through some sort of automation. And yet what you just
(36:47):
described is AI. I think actually bringing a bit more humanity, a bit more humanness into,
into its assessment, which you would then hope it depends on the business model that the people
working in the recruitment company could spend more time talking and engaging with the prospective
clients. And perhaps the pool of people are looking for jobs while the AI does the sifting
(37:13):
at the moment. That's not a combination that I see working very well. And you can even use it in
like first level employee relations issues for your listeners who are in human resources.
For example, you know, I'm an employee and I have an issue with how my coworker smells.
So rather than you know, I go to a bot at my employment and say, here's the issue I'm facing.
(37:39):
And a number of resources and alternatives are presented about what you might
do in that situation that might not necessitate additional human involvement. It might lead to
a satisfactory solution. So there are all kinds of ways in which this is transforming the ways
in which we work. When you wrote the book, Mike, what were you hoping would be the impact of it
(38:06):
with the particular audience you aimed at? Well, is to
enlarge the conversation around humanism in organizations and humanistic values in
organizations is to enlarge that conversation so that my clients who employ the people dividend
principles and the learners who are out there who will subscribe to a course or learn about the
(38:30):
are able to find more fulfillment and happiness and growth at work. It's a natural extension.
As I said earlier, I'm from integrity by design, working and living authentically.
My book in 2021, uh, you know, as a Marshall Goldsmith said, integrity by design is a lesson
(38:53):
in authenticity, read it and it may change the way you lead in life. And now, you know,
what I'm moving towards with the people dividend available on Amazon, uh, is that, um, this is to
take a leap from that. This is to take a springboard, uh, to think more, um, holistically
about teams and organizations. Integrity by design was the focus on the inside, right? About who you
(39:20):
are and congruency. And, uh, and now I'm thinking more broadly about, okay, how do you put all this
to use? How do we put our integral design, our integrity? How do we put our congruency to work
in creating the people dividend? And that's why you need to be equipped with these certain set
of skills and humanistic values. And do you get a sense? I know, I know you're uber positive man
(39:44):
in this, in this degree, you get a sense that we are actually bringing more humanity in or in a
post COVID area era. Are we, are we seeing it dissipate again? Well, I don't know, you know,
I, as an American, I'm inherently optimistic. I think it's a fault of Americans, right? This
(40:05):
inherent optimism that we seem to have, uh, without any, you know, really good planning.
So I think, you know, uh, it's, uh, you know, I bring some cultural bias to all of this.
And what I understand though, is the power of agency and agenic behavior, uh,
(40:26):
informing dominant coalitions that can make a difference, uh, in the working lives of people.
And that leads us nicely on Mike, before I, before I let you go, right. Um, we've come to
the part in the show I call sticky notes. Okay. And so what I'm looking to get from you is three
(40:48):
amazing pearls of wisdom that you could fit on little sticky notes that I guess would in this
case, help people get to grips with the message of the people dividend. So if you had the opportunity
to leave three sticky notes behind, what would you put on your sticky notes? My friend
to have already provided. Okay. Go fun is say hello. So you just write one word on your sticky
(41:12):
note. Hello. Hopefully that's the reminder to second thing is get out of your chair. And you
know, I don't mean that in a disparaging way, but is to, uh, get up. Um, even if you don't do
anything, you know, getting up once an hour, if you're at a desk and you're just working, it's
(41:33):
good for you. I mean, it'll reset you. Uh, and then we can work on taking that one little behavior,
that act of getting up out of your chair and turn it into a mindset or, um, uh, alignment and
congruence and bringing those parts of you, uh, to work. So get out of your, hello, get out of your
(41:55):
chair. And the third action item is to answer the question. In what ways did I bring my best today?
Nice. Mike, I, I think one of the best things about doing a podcast and I don't know if you
think, feel the same is you get to meet some wonderful people and occasionally some really
cool kindred spirits, you know, and I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting you and, uh, researching
(42:21):
your book and, uh, and listening to you today. Um, thank you so much for coming on before I let you
go. If people want to find out more about you and get hold of some resources, where should they,
where should they go? My friend, Mike dash horn.com. I mean, that'll take you there.
You can also find me on LinkedIn. I've got a lot of activity there, but, uh, my website is the
(42:43):
best place to Mike dash Horne, H O R N E.com. It's the best place to go to, um, listen to my podcast
to download my, uh, eBooks, first chapters of my, uh, last books, uh, a weekly blog,
uh, and lots of information about, uh, what I do. Well, we'll make sure to put all of that
(43:03):
stuff in the show notes, my friend, Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you.
Thank you so much for coming on. You take care. Thank you so much, Andy. All right. Cheers, Mike.
Okay. Everyone that was Mike horn. And if you'd like to find out anything more about him or any
of the topics that we've talked about today, please check out the show. So that concludes
(43:24):
today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it. Found it interesting and heard something maybe that
will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you
have please like comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening
(43:44):
to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time. Thanks for listening.
Hello and welcome to Sticky from the Inside, the employee engagement podcast that looks
at how to build stickier, competition smashing, consistently successful organisations from
the inside out. I'm your host Andy Goram and I'm on a mission to help more businesses
turn the lights on behind the eyes of their employees, light the fires within them and
(00:31):
create tonnes more success for everyone. This podcast is for all those who believe that's
something worth going after and would like a little help and guidance in achieving that.
Each episode we dive into the topics that can help create what I call stickier businesses,
(00:52):
the sort of businesses where people thrive and love to work and where more customers stay with
you and recommend you to others because they love what you do and why you do it. So if you
want to take the tricky out of being sticky, listen on. Okay then, have you heard someone
(01:14):
say that they feel like just another cog in the machine? How often have you heard that said?
Even talented, passionate people can end up feeling isolated, disconnected and unappreciated
work, especially in this rapidly changing landscape we're experiencing today. But what if we could
(01:34):
change that? What if we could create workplaces where everyone from top leadership to the very
newest hire feels genuinely seen, valued and connected, no matter who they are or where
they're coming from? In this episode, I am delighted to say I'm joined by Mike Horne,
author of The People Dividend, Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Employee Potential,
(01:59):
who has a bold vision for eliminating isolation at work. Mike believes that to overcome workplace
isolation, we need to stop viewing employees as resources and instead embrace their inherent
value, dignity and potential. And in a world increasingly shaped by AI and the oncoming
(02:21):
promise of a four-day workweek, he says that dignity, kindness and respect are no longer
soft skills but essential components of a leadership style that fosters real connection,
which is bang in line with the sentiment of this podcast. Today, we'll ask some big questions and
try to get to the heart of workplace isolation. What would it take to make everyone feel a true
(02:45):
sense of belonging at work? How can leaders be more human being and less human doing,
as the Dalai Lama famously once said? And as we approach this world where AI is going to handle
more of our tasks, how can we make sure technology strengthens human relationships rather than
undermines them? So, whether you're leading a team, working in one or simply seeking more
(03:12):
meaning in your day-to-day, I think this conversation is for you. I'm hoping Mike's
about to share some transformative insights that could make isolation at work a thing of the past
and inspire each of us to go and play a role in making that happen. Welcome to the show, Mike.
Well, Andy, thank you so much for having me. I am so delighted to be a guest on your podcast
(03:38):
and to join your audience as we discuss all things about human performance and people-centered
performance in organizational life. Andy and I share values, even though we've known each other
briefly. I believe we share a set of humanistic values that are at the center of the work that
(04:03):
Andy does and clearly part of the People Dividend, advancing humanistic values and management
for dignity, kindness, and respect. All topics of my newest book, The People Dividend,
Leadership Strategies for Unlocking Potential. And I am looking forward to discussing those
things with you today, my friend. But before we get into that, why don't you do me a favor?
(04:26):
Introduce yourself properly to the listeners. Give us a little bit about your background
and thinking about the People Dividend itself. What's inspired that piece of work?
I'm described as a coach, mentor, and teacher. So throughout my career, I've looked for roles to
express those talents that I have to develop who I am and what I do as a coach, mentor,
(04:52):
and teacher. So I have a very active executive development and organization development coaching
business. So that's where I give fulfillment to those roles. I am also the program director for
the Graduate Human Resources and Leadership Programs at Golden Gate University in San Francisco.
(05:14):
So there's my full-time teaching expression. I just finished a book chapter yesterday on the
intersection of artificial intelligence, emotional intelligence, and human resources.
It's a topic I've been presenting on at conferences over the last couple of months.
So there's this coaching part, which is my business, my teaching part, my work at Golden
(05:39):
Gate University, and my mentoring activities, of which I have several underway. I'm delighted
to work with those who are developing their careers in learning development and organization
development and setting a foundation for future generations of executive and organization
(06:00):
development consultants. So just a few things going on then in that background.
You know, what I've always learned is that if you want something done, ask a busy person
if you've heard that expression. So, yes. Brilliant. And the People Dividend book itself,
where's that come from? Because I'd like to unpack some of those things in there that you
(06:23):
have written about today and discuss their impact and actually how we can kind of
really foster more of the tenets that you bring out in this book. But was it something that was
always burning inside of you to write this book, or is it something that had to come out because
of certain events? Explain that to me. Well, I think this is a natural extension of my work.
(06:47):
It's an evolution of my last recent book, Integrity by Design, Working and Living Authentically.
So there's an extension there. But I think it grew out of a recent experience where
I was reporting to someone in an organization. And, you know, despite asking for feedback,
(07:09):
despite saying, how am I doing at these regular and routine check-ins? I don't think the guy ever
really cared. I think he had his own set of issues and his own career that he was managing.
So I could have said I was burning down the house or, you know, or inspiring performance
(07:31):
in the organization. I don't think it would have mattered one difference. So it is this feeling of,
you know, what the social psychologists call enemy, this sense of isolation. And I think,
you know, for some people, you know, you might trace it to factory line work.
You know, imagine that you're that person on a production line and you're putting a cap on a
(07:54):
spray can and, you know, there are 150 coming at you at, you know, a rapid clip. There's that kind
of enemy that happens or it might be the isolation of working in the fast food industry. And so if
you want to create engagement, if you want to create the ability of a person to exercise their
(08:18):
discretionary effort at work to bring more of who they are to what they do, then you got to tap
into the people dividend. It's as simple as that. My challenge is we have too many bad managers,
but you know, in a way that's an opportunity for me as a coach.
I think so. Well, I just, we just recorded an episode with Deborah Corey, uh, who spoke about
(08:39):
bad bosses ruin lives. And, uh, I mean, this couldn't be a better kind of, uh, bedfellow,
if you like to, to that episode in terms of highlighting, like you just said,
all those bad behaviors, sometimes well-intentioned, but just,
they don't do great things to people in organizations. And then this conversation
looking at, okay, so how do we bring some of these more human centered behaviors,
(09:04):
really front and center into an organization to, to make everything better?
Well, I have two recommendations in that regard for your audience, Andy, and, uh,
you know, there's so much wisdom to gain from seeking from the inside podcast.
Uh, I would really appreciate that reflection you just shared, uh, with an earlier guest.
Uh, but there are two ways to address this issue of, uh, ending isolation at work,
(09:28):
of making people feel that they matter. The first is that if you're a manager or a leader of people
or just a coworker, for goodness sakes, learn to say hello. Yeah. You know, I think we often
treat people as elements in our production. Where's that report? Did you do this? You know,
nobody really wants to go through it, but the opportunity, you know, the, the act, the behavior
(09:54):
of saying hello is the easiest way to create inclusion. Yeah. Connection. Connection.
And the second thing to do is if you're able to do that, uh, you know,
I mean, when this with all good intention is to get out of your chair.
Now it's so interesting to think about share today. Uh, recently in the news, Starbucks, uh,
(10:19):
announced that they're requiring 3,500 employees to return to work, I guess, in Seattle or wherever
their corporate offices are around the planet, at least three days a week. And it's interesting
to watch social media's take on this and, you know, what we've come to feel about, uh, if you're
in a big corporation and you're lucky enough to have a job that can be done where you think almost
(10:42):
anywhere to, to see what's going on in that regard in terms of our connection. I think this is such
an important thing and a theme that I think runs through your book, because when I, when I researched
your book to me and please correct me if I have this wrong, this sort of like five, five key areas
that I'd like to try and explore through our conversation today. Um, well, that's great. Well,
(11:06):
one of those, I think I mentioned firmly upfront in the introduction, which was this
eliminating isolation in the workplace, right? The first thing that stand out the book, we've
talked a couple of times or mentioned a couple of times about embracing a more human centered
approach to leadership. Um, and then I think we have spoken before and you have spoken
(11:30):
about this journey towards the four day week in the, in the U S which is, you know, I think it's
embryonic in the UK, but it's certainly being talked about more and more coming back to us.
Also some fundamental in my perspective, foundational pieces around human values
and particularly that trust and connection thing, and then how we accelerate the value of people
(11:57):
in an organization, as opposed to seeing them as resources. Those are the sort of
like five key, if you like for me, tenants that came out of the book. Is that,
is that your intention? Have I missed anything in, in that sort of summary?
No, what I would add is just the context of how AI is, is affecting and changing all of those.
(12:19):
And, you know, as I wrote the book over the last year and brought it to market, uh, in November,
2024, uh, really thinking about how AI is impacting jobs. Maybe that will lead to the
four day work week and more automation in organizations, less people are required.
(12:39):
There are some stellar examples that Unilever and IBM, uh, with huge savings of, uh, labor hours,
Unilever has 70,000 hours in labor savings are with the introduction of automation.
So I think that's what I would say is that AI is a huge contributor to all of these things. And
(13:03):
what we know is that, you know, if you have bad news to deliver, send it via machine.
If you have good news to deliver, do it in person, uh, do it in a way that has connection.
And isn't that very similar to what we've been talking about for decades now is that, uh, to
lead with your strengths. And so a few people really work at uncovering them fully. Well,
(13:28):
let's try and dive into some of these topics. Sure. Then Mike, uh, we might mash them up a
little bit and talk about them, but I'm really, I'm interested to really have a look at this,
um, eliminate, eliminating isolation in, in the workplace. Um, from the research that you've done
and the perspective that you come from, what are some of the causes you think known and perhaps
(13:53):
maybe unintentional or even overlooked of the formulation of isolation at work?
One is, um, the dominant tendency of many organizational leaders to demons to have
an extroverted orientation. So I, uh, observe client meetings, sit-in client meetings,
(14:22):
where the senior executive is saying, everyone needs to be back at work. Everyone needs to be
in an office building. And you can see in those meetings where it's driven out of this need,
uh, to connect with people in places in the outer world, as opposed to taking another opportunity
(14:50):
to reinforce what's likely to create more lasting and enduring value, which is all part of the
people dividend in values, mission, and purpose. So that's where we create the greatest alignment
of human effort and human talent. I think what's stuck with me, you know, if we continue to think
about the origin story of the people dividend, I remember one very senior executive succession
(15:13):
planning, uh, executive in a large corporation where I work, who, uh, looked at me with a
straight face and said, you know, if we could figure out a way to make money without people,
we would, you know, pretty cynical perspective. I start with the belief. And I think you share
this, Andy, is that people are at the heart of the enterprise. 100%, my friend, 100%. I think that
(15:37):
is the thing. I think it's also interesting when I was thinking about this isolation at work. And
we will not be isolated anymore, but I remember times personally sitting in a very crowded office
feeling completely isolated and out of it and not connected to anybody around me. I think
(15:59):
the physical presence is one tiny part of the jigsaw. Right.
And in some global corporations where I have a lot of deep experience, um, is that if you're
closer colleague in Zurich, then you do somebody who's two floors down from you.
(16:22):
It's just part of that reality, right? The teams that you work with.
Yeah. And do you think this is what gets to the center of this? And you've used the phrase before
cog in the machine. Do you think this is where, where this sort of stems from just being
a number, uh, not understanding or having your real value recognized in an organization?
(16:44):
Well, it's part of the transformational journey that we've been on in, uh, management and
leadership, you know, moving from an era of efficiency where we're really counting and
more standardized approaches to management. Then, uh, moving towards, uh, customer service
orientation and a more, uh, attempt to be, um, more focused on the bigger variables that might
(17:11):
create change in management and leadership now to moving towards, uh, the AI air.
And that's why I believe these, uh, humanistic values would be, uh, much more important because.
Of the rise of the gig economy as well, given a shorter work week, people will construct,
(17:33):
uh, a brand identities and livelihoods in ways that differ from the, uh, you know, a time when
a more conventional work approach was the only route available.
Yeah. I think this is also what I believe is linked to this human centered leadership thing.
I mean, I, I jokingly mentioned the Dalai Lama before in his, you know, infamous, uh,
(17:58):
human being versus human doing quotation, which I think in the UK, certainly Richard Branson from
absolutely nicked and started to use, um, for, for his own means in, in, in his business. But
from your perspective, when we think about this human centered bit, how does this,
well, how can leaders embody that philosophy genuinely and authentically do you think to
(18:22):
try and help minimize some of this isolation stuff? Right. Understand your role as a coach
and understand your role as a judge. Most managers need to wear both hats and, uh, tend
to focus on the assessment versus the coach hat. Uh, this, these, you have to under, you know,
(18:45):
I think it comes with an awareness that these are not dichotomous. They're not separate. They're not
one, you know, they're all, they're both part of the equation now for managing for team success,
managerial success. And I would imagine that you would advocate like I would for some.
Well, let, let's use a very blunt instrument. Let's say training in these human centered
(19:11):
relationship skills. Uh, I know you're as triggered as I am by the term soft skills,
but I think, I think we have to realize that we can't take for granted that these,
these skills of empathy, respect, dignity, kindness are, are necessarily well understood
(19:32):
concepts. And, and actually people feel like they are equipped to, to bring these to work
and use them effectively. Yes. Do I believe that people are equipped with these inherently
or do you, I mean, I think people generally think they are, but I think evidence would say that we
don't use them well enough in, in, in business. That's an accurate statement. I would concur with
(19:56):
that. Yeah. Uh, I believe that these are inherent, uh, because as a humanist in management is somebody
who believes in the human potential movement that I believe in the inherent worth of the individual.
And therefore, you know, these other things to see a person in process, uh, to see, um,
(20:21):
uh, inclusion and diversity is natural elements of, uh, systems is, is the way that I approach
the world and the kind of clients that I want to work with who are changing the world.
I think this is the thing though, because what I often feel like on this podcast, I'm sure you do
on the people dividend podcast too, that you, I often feel a bit like a fraud because I think I'm
(20:44):
talking about common sense a lot of the time, a lot of the time, which is biased because it's
coming from my, my perspective, but what's the, what have you seen in your work and what do you
do in your work, Mike, to help people perhaps see these things a bit more clearly, uh, practice them
um, so that they can be more effective in, in the day to day. I mean, is it as simple as sitting down
(21:08):
and doing the self-awareness coaching and all those sorts of things, or, or are there other
techniques that you're finding, uh, have a much better lasting effect?
Well, I'm plenty credentialed. Um, I offer three things. Um, you know, I try to keep it simple for
myself. Uh, one is I offer, I, I, I offer executive coaching services. And that means for people who
(21:34):
are founders owners in the C suite or their aspirants to the C suite.
Um, so maybe their VP in an organization. So I offer coaching to those individuals
in three, six or 12 month increments. The second thing that I do is that I offer
(21:59):
leadership development programs to my clients. So a company can engage me for six to 18 months.
I work with a group of people done this in all different kinds of shapes and forms,
working with cohort group, uh, on leadership topics over a course of 16, six to 18 months.
And the third thing that I do is I leverage my expertise in organization development.
(22:23):
Um, got three decades of experience in, uh, organization development, uh, making better
places to work, making places where people do their best work. So I offer, I intervene
in systems, uh, for my, uh, executive clients. I just completed, for example, the redesign of a
research and development organization for one of the biggest, uh, medical device companies,
(22:49):
uh, finished, uh, uh, onboarding of a CEO, uh, recently. So this is the kinds of organization
development services that I provide as well, given the expertise and leverage that I have
as in that field. And so within all of that work, Mike, what are some of the common things that you
see as perhaps barriers to making these human centered values become part of that leadership
(23:17):
toolkit? If you like, is it that people think they're already good at them? People don't see
the value in them or, um, is it something else? What, what, what's going on in the mix? What are
you typically seeing when you're engaging with individual service offering, you know, as an,
as an executive coach, most of the people with whom I work have inherently bad people skills.
(23:45):
Uh, you know, they're very bright people. Uh, they have risen in their fields in science
and technology or in engineering because they are very bright people and very successful
technically at what they do. But we know from, you know, now Warner Burke, 40 years, 45 years of
(24:06):
social science research that promoting people on the basis of their technical skills, isn't
the pathway to leadership. So you have this cream of the crop that I work with,
you know, very successful, uh, scientists, technologists, engineers, for the most part,
finance folks, sales, but very technically successful individuals, um, who still need help.
(24:32):
With, uh, you know, their people skills, you know, for example, a board of directors
engaged me to work with the founder who had grown this business into, uh, you know,
a globally recognized brand very quickly raised a lot of money.
Um, and was no longer effective to scale the business and had a number of, you know,
(24:54):
interpersonal issues with the C-suite team that probably wouldn't be tolerated in many places.
And I've witnessed and experienced up, you know, uh, upfront, I mean, working for some of the
leading technology, engineering, and biotech companies, uh, these kinds of folks. And I love
working with them because they're successful people and they want to do better. And is that.
(25:18):
And again, I'm just really curious when you're, when you, when you're faced with that situation
with someone who is incredibly bright, done very, very well, technically, and they've,
they realize, or they see that they don't have that interpersonal connection or that,
or that set of skills to really engage and inspire and motivate people as, as best they could.
(25:43):
What's the reaction from those individuals and how they got to that point in their career
without being able to hone those things? Do you think?
Or it may be that it's not that they're unable to do those things. It's just that they could
leverage themselves so much more effectively, um, to, uh, drive alignment to organizational
(26:09):
purpose and mission. Yeah. So it's, it's not often that they, these are deficient.
I mean, they're deficient, but they're, but they are observable.
Okay. Well, and recoverable clearly from the work that you do.
Right. Sure. Much, much more difficult in a team development exercise,
uh, to regain trust, uh, you know, in many executive teams, it's not an issue.
(26:33):
Uh, in most C-suite teams, I mean, trust isn't a big issue. I don't think because the
foci of the, the, the focus of the team is just different.
I think I see, I find that really interesting and maybe it's because of relative engagements or,
or businesses that I've worked in or that I have worked with, because sometimes there's
(26:57):
this kind of pseudo mist of trust within a, within a room where there's a lot of nodding
that goes on in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.
But it doesn't necessarily exist outside of that exec room. There's a, their trust means there's a,
a lack of challenge and therefore a lack of commitment in, in, in some of those actions,
which is sometimes, sometimes what you see, I'm really interested to sort of say that in
(27:20):
your experience on the exec, the trust thing doesn't seem to be such a big deal.
Well, it's not that I have to trust you on how you're going to do your job because you know,
you can be responsible for leading the research and development organization. You can be responsible
for leading the finance technical trust. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, what I trust you on is
(27:40):
that we're all aligned on the same mission. And when that falls apart, you're in real trouble.
Yeah. And I think this is what it comes back to right in the, at the heart of it. If that,
if that group aren't aligned and don't have a clear vision and mission and a set of objectives
and strategies that are aligned to those things and a bunch of enabling values and behaviors that
will help you deliver those things in the right way, the wheels come off. I mean, that's, that's
(28:04):
when it starts to get a bit wobbly, right? Sure. And this is, uh, you know, much of the
organization development work in the interventions that I offer is getting people to, uh, alignment,
you know, whether it's a structure issue, whether it's a team development issue, uh, or if it is,
um, a leadership issue, it's around creating a, uh, a shared sense of alignment.
(28:29):
Well, let's maybe move on and think about, I don't know whether it's, it's right. Um, to think about
that the framing of this isolation at work, but also move into that, that topic of the four day
week shifting, and I guess a need for a different sort of collaboration and how that kind of comes
about. So what's going on with the four day week in the, in the U S right now, where, where are we,
(28:50):
what are we heading towards and what challenges and opportunities is that bringing in this context?
Work happens in such variable ways. Uh, there are those who are fortunate to be able to schedule
their work and to adjust their hours as they see fit. Uh, there are others who, uh, you know,
(29:10):
work longer days or fewer days in the office. Uh, you particularly think about that in healthcare
and in first responder situations where people may work, uh, several 12 hour shifts in order for more
flexibility. Um, as with the AI frontier, uh, ahead of us, I think there will be a general
(29:36):
scaling back of a lot of work. We'll have to think about work in newer ways. And that's why
those are three reasons why I think, uh, we're leading towards more of the four day work week,
where we'll see it soon. And so what issues does that present for this, this topic of the potential
to have maybe increased isolation at work with spending maybe less time in that work environment,
(30:01):
maybe being less connected with the people around us. What, what do you see as the
challenges and opportunities there? Well, I see all the opportunities in the people dividend.
So, uh, so, so, so tell us what, what, what that looks like then in terms of, uh, the people
dividend, what, what are, are you asking any, like, what are the, uh, manage managerial mindsets?
(30:26):
Yeah. Are you asking about what the everyday behaviors are? What are you thinking about?
I think it's a combination of those two things, right? What approach we got to bring from a
mindset perspective and how does this stuff show up in some focused, intentional, maybe
differentiated behaviors? Yeah. I'm a big believer that in order to work on mindsets,
work on behaviors first. Um, so that's exactly what I would do is, uh, you know, I'm sort of
(30:54):
an engineer by, uh, by, by design, I think, uh, by, by practice. And I think you want to choose
the most pressing issues that you face in the pursuit of your organization success.
And that once you're able to identify those to see what behaviors are driving you towards
(31:20):
those goals and then what behaviors are opposing your achievement of those goals
and to figure out what the cycle is, what's creating the immunity to make the next step.
And that is, that is the kind of message behind this, this people dividend, right? Recognizing
people for their inherent value and bringing some more human centered values to bring those
(31:45):
things out. Right. And so, yeah, cause, cause some, some greater connections. And so we've
got a four day week heading our way. And at the same time, we've got this, I mean, rapid
explosion of AI support. I mean, you only have to look over, I guess, the oceans to see what's
going over in Japan with society 5.0 and really sort of doubling down on where the AI supports,
(32:12):
I guess, human enjoyment of life. Um, we're at the intersection, I think, of this stuff
starting to balloon. And so what challenges or opportunities does that give to this whole people
dividend, um, situation? Because we've got people on, I mean, no surprise nowadays, you've got the
kind of black and white of it all. It's very binary, you know, AI is going to kill us and
(32:36):
everybody's going to lose their jobs. And the other bit is actually, it's going to release us.
I'm going to have a more creative life and a more balance. And there's all sorts of wonderful
things going to happen. Where do you sit, um, with this and how does it relate to
your work on the people dividend? Well, I noticed as I was speaking at conferences,
uh, over the last few months where there's a lot of conversation in human resources about AI,
(33:01):
some companies, uh, taking the position to, uh, ban it, to not allow its use at work.
Uh, others, uh, turned a blind eye to it. Uh, go ahead, use it on your personal devices,
copy and paste it into, you know, your corporate device. It's fine. Uh, uh, and others have,
uh, taken a completely experimental approach. I think those who take the experimental approach
(33:24):
are those that benefit. So just trying to sort of have a go, see what it does,
integrate different things, see what works, see what benefit. Well, it's fundamentally changed
work. I mean, you know, fewer people write memos. I know. I mean, I use it, I use it tons,
right? I use it tons for putting me in, um, in the ballpark of a piece of work. And if I want to
(33:46):
structure some stuff out, it's great at putting me in the ballpark. I, I, I guess there are other
people who are wholly reliant on it. And some people who, who think it's the devil incarnate.
I mean, I, I think when we think about it from a people perspective, what, what do we see as the,
the, the, the challenges and opportunities specifically with regards to people seeing
(34:08):
their value in the workplace? Are we fundamentally shifting our appreciation of that from
the amount of time you spend doing something, which is still a thing, right? You could be
sitting in the office for eight hours, achieving nothing, but he's worked hard. And yet today,
you've got a piece of software effectively that could, I don't get you there in, in minutes.
(34:28):
Um, who's done the most work who's had the best thing. Are we now looking at real outputs as
opposed to time? How, how are these things challenging us from what you see in the
conversations that you have, Mike? Well, I think you could see them generationally.
They show up different. That's for sure. Uh, people who are, uh, you know, digital nomads
(34:49):
think differently about, um, boomers who are still in the workplace, uh, about millennials
in the workplace. I mean, there's certainly been an evolution into how we conceive of and
think of leadership, you know, certainly moving from more authoritarian styles to influencer
(35:10):
styles. Yeah. Uh, it's just a reality. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's definitely that
generational shift that we're coming through. Do you, do you think with the message of recognizing
human value at work, do you think that AI is going to significantly challenge or enhance that?
(35:33):
Well, a lot of it depends on what gets programmed into the algorithm,
you know, and how we conceive of those. So I think that's certainly, you know, one thing that
we need to be concerned about, but you know, for example, I mean, there are companies that are
using AI right now in, uh, recruiting to scan for emotional intelligence. I mean, I'm, I'm
(35:59):
interested in this paradox. I don't know if it really is a paradox. Maybe I'm overusing a word.
That's a bit grandiose for what it is, but I'm sort of hopeful because that example for me
is where, why I get hopeful in the, in the human AI interaction for me, something like
recruitment in the last few years before necessarily AI for me in the UK. And we've
(36:20):
talked about it on the podcast before. It feels like a broken industry. It's actually taken the
humanistic stuff out of it. It's just chuck your CV into it. The spiders will crawl all over it.
And if you're lucky, it'll pop out the other end of something. Somebody might have a look at,
and then might have a conversation with you. The human connection of that whole recruitment piece
in many cases seems to have been lost through some sort of automation. And yet what you just
(36:47):
described is AI. I think actually bringing a bit more humanity, a bit more humanness into,
into its assessment, which you would then hope it depends on the business model that the people
working in the recruitment company could spend more time talking and engaging with the prospective
clients. And perhaps the pool of people are looking for jobs while the AI does the sifting
(37:13):
at the moment. That's not a combination that I see working very well. And you can even use it in
like first level employee relations issues for your listeners who are in human resources.
For example, you know, I'm an employee and I have an issue with how my coworker smells.
So rather than you know, I go to a bot at my employment and say, here's the issue I'm facing.
(37:39):
And a number of resources and alternatives are presented about what you might
do in that situation that might not necessitate additional human involvement. It might lead to
a satisfactory solution. So there are all kinds of ways in which this is transforming the ways
in which we work. When you wrote the book, Mike, what were you hoping would be the impact of it
(38:06):
with the particular audience you aimed at? Well, is to
enlarge the conversation around humanism in organizations and humanistic values in
organizations is to enlarge that conversation so that my clients who employ the people dividend
principles and the learners who are out there who will subscribe to a course or learn about the
(38:30):
are able to find more fulfillment and happiness and growth at work. It's a natural extension.
As I said earlier, I'm from integrity by design, working and living authentically.
My book in 2021, uh, you know, as a Marshall Goldsmith said, integrity by design is a lesson
(38:53):
in authenticity, read it and it may change the way you lead in life. And now, you know,
what I'm moving towards with the people dividend available on Amazon, uh, is that, um, this is to
take a leap from that. This is to take a springboard, uh, to think more, um, holistically
about teams and organizations. Integrity by design was the focus on the inside, right? About who you
(39:20):
are and congruency. And, uh, and now I'm thinking more broadly about, okay, how do you put all this
to use? How do we put our integral design, our integrity? How do we put our congruency to work
in creating the people dividend? And that's why you need to be equipped with these certain set
of skills and humanistic values. And do you get a sense? I know, I know you're uber positive man
(39:44):
in this, in this degree, you get a sense that we are actually bringing more humanity in or in a
post COVID area era. Are we, are we seeing it dissipate again? Well, I don't know, you know,
I, as an American, I'm inherently optimistic. I think it's a fault of Americans, right? This
(40:05):
inherent optimism that we seem to have, uh, without any, you know, really good planning.
So I think, you know, uh, it's, uh, you know, I bring some cultural bias to all of this.
And what I understand though, is the power of agency and agenic behavior, uh,
(40:26):
informing dominant coalitions that can make a difference, uh, in the working lives of people.
And that leads us nicely on Mike, before I, before I let you go, right. Um, we've come to
the part in the show I call sticky notes. Okay. And so what I'm looking to get from you is three
(40:48):
amazing pearls of wisdom that you could fit on little sticky notes that I guess would in this
case, help people get to grips with the message of the people dividend. So if you had the opportunity
to leave three sticky notes behind, what would you put on your sticky notes? My friend
to have already provided. Okay. Go fun is say hello. So you just write one word on your sticky
(41:12):
note. Hello. Hopefully that's the reminder to second thing is get out of your chair. And you
know, I don't mean that in a disparaging way, but is to, uh, get up. Um, even if you don't do
anything, you know, getting up once an hour, if you're at a desk and you're just working, it's
(41:33):
good for you. I mean, it'll reset you. Uh, and then we can work on taking that one little behavior,
that act of getting up out of your chair and turn it into a mindset or, um, uh, alignment and
congruence and bringing those parts of you, uh, to work. So get out of your, hello, get out of your
(41:55):
chair. And the third action item is to answer the question. In what ways did I bring my best today?
Nice. Mike, I, I think one of the best things about doing a podcast and I don't know if you
think, feel the same is you get to meet some wonderful people and occasionally some really
cool kindred spirits, you know, and I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting you and, uh, researching
(42:21):
your book and, uh, and listening to you today. Um, thank you so much for coming on before I let you
go. If people want to find out more about you and get hold of some resources, where should they,
where should they go? My friend, Mike dash horn.com. I mean, that'll take you there.
You can also find me on LinkedIn. I've got a lot of activity there, but, uh, my website is the
(42:43):
best place to Mike dash Horne, H O R N E.com. It's the best place to go to, um, listen to my podcast
to download my, uh, eBooks, first chapters of my, uh, last books, uh, a weekly blog,
uh, and lots of information about, uh, what I do. Well, we'll make sure to put all of that
(43:03):
stuff in the show notes, my friend, Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you.
Thank you so much for coming on. You take care. Thank you so much, Andy. All right. Cheers, Mike.
Okay. Everyone that was Mike horn. And if you'd like to find out anything more about him or any
of the topics that we've talked about today, please check out the show. So that concludes
(43:24):
today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed it. Found it interesting and heard something maybe that
will help you become a stickier, more successful business from the inside going forward. If you
have please like comment and subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy Goram, and you've been listening
(43:44):
to the sticky from the inside podcast until next time. Thanks for listening.
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