September 17, 2025 • 32 mins
On today's 240th episode of The Thriller Zone, your favorite host, Dave Temple, is diving into a conversation with the fabulous Lisa Gardner, who’s been busy crafting her latest thriller, "Kiss Her Goodbye."
Right off the bat, we’re digging into the heart of the story, which revolves around the intense and emotional journey of a mother and her daughter, who won’t stop searching for each other, no matter the odds.
I mean, talk about a nail-biter! Lisa shares some behind-the-scenes insights on her research process, which took her deep into the world of Afghan refugees and the challenges they face.
Folks, it’s not just about the thrills; it’s about connecting with real human experiences that tug at your heartstrings.
So grab your favorite snack and settle in, because this episode is packed with laughter, heart, and a whole lot of literary goodness!
LEARN MORE AT: LISAGARDNER.COM + FOLLOW US AT: THETHRILLERZONE.COM
Takeaways:
- This episode features an engaging chat with Lisa Gardner about her latest thriller, 'Kiss Her Goodbye', which is packed with emotional depth and riveting storytelling.
- Dave Temple, the host, shares his experiences from a podcast convention, emphasizing the joy he finds in creating nearly 300 episodes over four years.
- Listeners are treated to a light-hearted discussion about the joys and challenges of writing, including the balance between reading and creating original works.
- The episode touches on the importance of research in writing, especially focusing on real-world issues like the experiences of Afghan refugees, which adds authenticity to Gardner's narrative.
- Gardner discusses the significance of character development, particularly the mother-daughter dynamic, and how it drives the emotional core of her stories.
- The podcast wraps up with Dave hinting at exciting new projects ahead, including his upcoming honeymoon, leaving listeners eager for what's to come.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Reframe.fm
- Doctors Without Borders
KEYWORDS: podcast episode, thriller podcast, Lisa Gardner interview, Kiss Her Goodbye, summer podcast episodes, writing thrillers, character development, research in writing, emotional depth in storytelling, Afghan refugees in literature, family stories in thrillers, mystery writing techniques, Dave Temple podcast, author interviews, book recommendations, travel and writing, podcasting tips, creative writing process, overcoming writer's block, storytelling techniques
- KEYWORDS:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Thriller Zone.
I'm your host, Dave Temple.
Happy summer or close tofinishing the summer.
Can you believe it?
Where has this summer gone?
Well, I'll tell you one thing,I have been working most of the summer.
(00:21):
Yeah, I mean show after showafter show.
Yeah.
August, I slowed down a little bit.
September, I'm taking off now.
I'm pre recording the show sothat we'll drop in September, which
when you see this, of courseit will be September.
How you doing?
But yeah, wife and I aretaking a little vacation which you'll
hear about inside the show asI speak with our guest, Lisa Gardner,
(00:44):
who has written this smashing book.
Kiss her goodbye.
So stay tuned for thatconversation in a moment and we'll
check back in with you in, oh,I don't know, October.
I'm not going anywhere just yet.
Just hang with me.
Daddy needs a break.
Daddy and mom are going totake a vacay.
(01:05):
It's about time, right?
Hey, listen, before we getgoing into the show, let me just
say thank you so much forbeing there.
I attended a podcastconvention recently with my good
friend Jonathan Ayala ofReframe fm.
And I realized something thatI have really thoroughly enjoyed
(01:27):
recording this show.
I really have.
Excuse me while, I'll takesome water.
And I've thoroughly enjoyedthe show four years in the making,
approaching 300 episodes.
Somebody asked me the otherday, how many books have you read?
And I'm like, probably closeto 300.
Seriously.
Even some of the books thatnever made it on the show I was reading.
(01:48):
Couple of things are going tochange here.
I'm not reading as many booksas I would as I have been.
You know why?
Because I'm writing my own books.
That's right.
Oh, you want to see it?
No, I can't do that.
I have been working on thisbook for some time.
You're going to hear moreabout that inside the show too.
But I realized, and I've beentalking to a couple of my good friends,
(02:08):
Jack Stewart, Anthony Goodell,a couple of different guys, Chris
Haughty and just, and, and,and they keep saying to me, dude,
why are you not spending moretime writing?
We know how much you lovebooks and how much you love to write.
And, and so after four yearsand a lot of gray hair, can you believe
the color of my hair nowversus when I started?
(02:29):
I should pull up a, a pictureof me when I first started this show,
which would have been 21.
Yeah, yeah.
Browner.
Much browner.
But anyway, my point is I, Iwant to do some more writing.
And to do that writing, ittakes research and travel, et cetera.
(02:51):
So that's why you're going tosee me bounce in and out.
Anyway, I'm also working onsomething else, something very new,
very fresh.
I'll share that in the coming days.
I realized I've just hit thethree minute mark of babbling and
we got to get to the show.
Lisa Gardner is a delightful gal.
I love speaking with her.
She's one of the good people, right?
(03:12):
I mean, she's just.
And she's talented.
Oh, my goodness.
I did learn a few thingsinside today's show that I haven't
known before.
So I think you're going toenjoy that.
So without any further ado,this is your host Dave Temple saying
thank you once again.
Feel free to reach out at anytime atthethriserzone.com and stay
tuned for some new, fresh, newfun stuff in the very near future.
(03:36):
David, you're such a tease.
All right, folks, here's LisaGardner on the Thriller Zone.
That is so perfectly framed.
Very nice top.
Very nice books display.
This poor book cover isactually a little too shiny.
We're going to do this.
We're going to put in the non glossy.
You've been at this a while.
(03:57):
Plus I'll hold this up fromtime to time and I'll tilt it forward.
I used to be a QVC host, so I,Yeah, I used to.
You know how to handle the gloss?
You got to do that.
You got to handle it like this.
One hand here, one hand here.
Always have a manicure.
And tilt forward.
Yeah.
Oh, I don't even have the manicure.
I have gardening hands.
Oh, no.
You know, one thing, by theway, we're started.
(04:19):
Welcome to the Thriller Zone.
Welcome back.
Thank you, David.
I'm happy we're able to makethis work out.
Yes.
Thank you.
You know, one thing I don'talways do, which I did with you this
time, I went back to your acknowledgments.
And, and I always find everyonce in a while I go in there, I'm
like, who, who, who are thesecats hanging out with and studying
with and, and thanking?
(04:40):
And one thing here, I, I, Ithink I knew this, but In March of
23, let's see, we got togetherand I think the last time we talked
it was March of 24.
So we may have met.
That would make sense.
Yeah.
March 24th, the last book.
Yep.
But you were you playing,literally playing with gray whales
in Baja's California Magdalena Bay.
(05:02):
Oh, it was a fabulous trip.
You go out and it was NationalGeographic, and you just sit in little
boats and the whales will comechoose you.
So particularly the youngerwhales will play with the boats.
We had one day a large whale,it was blowing bubbles.
They'll dive under and around,and they're just curious and they
(05:23):
just seem to enjoy, you know,amusing themselves.
Two things come to my mind.
Whales and.
And dolphins have this love of humans.
And.
And then on top of that,something that completely surprised
me.
And.
And if you trust Instagram,Lisa, if you trust Instagram, I'm
(05:45):
watching all these peoplehanging out with sharks and come
to find out, I always thoughtthe sharks are predators and we're
just going to eat you regardless.
But some of these cats areunder the water petting the sharks
noses and, you know, some ofthem have rescued them in the past
and the sharks know how tofind them again, so they're operating
on a different frequency thanwe are.
(06:06):
As a thriller author, perhapsI should be petting sharks, but I
might not actually be thatbrave a traveler.
I've done some pretty weird things.
I'm going to stick to petting dogs.
Okay.
Yes.
I have mine on my lap inposition right now.
And what kind of dog do we have?
I have a little Carn Terrier,like a Toto.
(06:27):
Nice.
I love it.
Well, kiss her.
Kiss her goodbye.
Fantastic read.
We're gonna.
We're gonna jump in here justto make sure we get everything done.
But referencing this researchthat you do, because Baja was research,
right?
Reason, Absolutely.
Okay.
I know that you're a researchjunkie and it shines in this book,
(06:49):
so I want to come out.
I'm gonna come out with someheavy questions, then I'm gonna back
off.
But between this refugeeexperience, the trauma, forensic
detail, this book feels theonly word I could think of because
I always try to do this.
I. I read the book, I take mynotes, then I go, how does it.
How did it hit you?
What does it make you feel?
I'm like, this feels lived in,this feels real, this feels organic.
(07:11):
It feels a little bit morelike I'm watching a movie rather
than reading a book, which I always.
To me, that's the bestcompliment I could give you.
And so to that point, do you think.
How do you think yourdedication to this craft, the research,
the digging so deep into realworlds shapes that emotional, psychological
(07:32):
depth, which it does in spadesof both Sabera.
I hope I'm saying this.
Sabera and Zara's characters.
So for me, Kiss or Goodbye wasthe most intense research I'VE done.
Because it was also different.
Yeah.
I mean, to your point, I loveto research, but being a thriller
author, generally it's procedural.
You know, I'm with the FBI orthe police or SWAT team.
(07:53):
It's all really good stuff.
But I'm learning how to dosomething well, to write this book
about Afghan refugees and theexperience of coming to the United
States.
And then I started to realizeit is a family story.
So who they were also inAfghanistan was interviewing people.
I felt like I got to be likemy heroine, Frankie Elkin, a little
(08:15):
bit.
My job was to.
I had friends that wereconnecting me with various refugees,
and I was amazed they werewilling to talk.
And then my job was to listenand just absorb their stories.
And, oh, my goodness, the heartbreak.
I mean, you know, it's goingto be heartbreaking, but, I mean,
there were sessions I justcried at the end.
Sometimes I cried with them atthe end.
(08:36):
I mean, it's a level of lossto lose your entire country, your
extended family, your culture.
And, I mean, Kabul fell in,like, eight hours.
Like, I just.
It'd be like New York City wasthere in the morning and not in the
afternoon.
Like, I just.
I can't even wrap my brainaround it.
And to that point, we take, asAmericans, I think we take so much
(08:57):
for granted because we live inthis safe, open society where a lot
of freedom is enjoyed.
And when I read this story andI think about the folks in.
Oh, geez, I dropped the word Ukraine.
Yeah, You.
You.
You realize what we take forgranted and how we shouldn't.
(09:19):
And when I'm.
And back to your.
My point in youracknowledgments, the volume of people
that you thanked, which toldme that all of this was verified,
justified all along the way.
It's kind of mind blowing.
I was so blown away by howmany people were willing to talk
to me.
And it was also reallyinteresting, too, because some things
were challenging.
(09:40):
You know, when I start talkingto refugees, one of the first one,
a big, big chunk of therefugee experience.
I mean, because it takes yearsto finally get placed in the United
States or anywhere in the world.
It's a UN designation, it'slegally recognized, but you have
to wait for your placement.
You're spending that time in arefugee camp.
And one of the first thingsall the volunteer coordinators told
(10:02):
me when I was talking,speaking to the refugees here in
the US that had been placedwas, don't ask about the refugee
camps.
They will not speak of it.
It's too traumatic.
It would be A rude thing to dofor them, to put them back in that.
So don't ask about the refugee camps.
So now I'm like, but I can'trelate this experience without talking
(10:24):
about the refugee camps.
But actually the sister of myeditor had volunteered in one.
And after talking to her andgetting hooked up with people like
from Doctors Without Borders,I mean, hearing about those experiences
was in many ways even moremind boggling because, I mean, some
of these refugee camps, Imean, they're like a thousand percent
(10:46):
overcrowded, but they workbecause of the volunteers, because
of the refugees stepping up tohelp other refugees.
What I learned is there are alot of Frankie Elkins out there in
the world.
There are a lot of strangerswho've committed themselves to helping
strangers.
Yeah.
And thank God for that, right?
Yes.
At the heart, as we know, forthose who have read it or are considering
(11:10):
reading, is a missing mom andher daughter who won't give up.
Do you connect more with themystery itself or the mother daughter
bond?
And I know that's kind of anodd question, but I was.
But I think you know what I'm.
Saying there, I feel themystery doesn't work if you're not
connected to that motherdaughter bond.
(11:30):
That the whole point with agreat thriller is what's at stake.
Right.
I mean, we like the academicpuzzle, the fact that there's codes
in this book and a little girleven has this very cool riddle that
I didn't actually know theanswer to for a while.
I mean, that's the fun stuff,but you get connected and tied into
it because of the motherdaughter and because it's something
we can relate to as a parent,as a person.
(11:54):
The heartbreak and heartbreakpotential is what we all relate to.
And that's one thing I walkedaway with.
And that's, you know, it's so funny.
We read thrillers to turn thepages and to escape and so forth.
But when you get a chance tobe thrilled and moved at the same
time, which doesn't happen ifI'm reading two books a week, I don't,
(12:15):
I don't run across that everymonth, is what I'm saying.
Lisa, There is some heart.
There is a lot of heart in alot of the books, but there isn't
the dramatic heart, loss, painlike in this book.
And, and the other thing is,you know, Frankie never stays in
one place very long.
Makes me think of my radiocareer when I'm bouncing all over
(12:35):
the country.
But I'm like, do you thinkthat kind of drifting makes her stronger?
Or just more lonely.
What I love about Frankie isI'm still learning her.
I think we all are.
You know, she's an everydayperson on this crazy mission, you
know, to search for the vanishthat nobody else is even looking
(12:56):
for.
And it bounces her around, butin a way, I think she needs.
I think Franke, if she staysin one place too long, it's almost
like gets itchy, and that'swhen sobriety and returning to drinking
become more and more of anissue for her.
So kind of being this Rollingstone, and I think we can all relate.
(13:19):
It's easier to solve otherpeople's problems.
It's a great way to kind ofavoid your own.
I mean, maybe it's not thebest method out there, but it's.
It's working for Frankie.
You put it.
So you put it well, because you.
You know what?
Let me.
Let me solve your problembecause, geez, I do not want to put
a mirror in my face.
Exactly.
(13:39):
Exactly.
Another thing I loved aboutthis, and living in a Mediterranean
kind of climate, as I do inSan Diego, and we visit the.
The desert a lot because ourfamilies out there, the.
The.
The.
The feeling of desert was so vivid.
I mean, I. I could.
I could feel the heat comingoff the page.
And it.
(14:00):
I get that it showed Frankiebeing out of her element, but I have
to believe, again, circlingback to my opening comment, this
has to be a reflection of thelove of your.
Your love of desert and.
And your travels.
That's one thing I love aboutyour books is.
It's.
I always know.
Okay, if Lisa's talking aboutblank, blank, blank, blank, she's
(14:21):
lived it.
I love Tucson, though.
I would admit one of thereasons I read about the heat so
much is from the mountains ofNew Hampshire.
It was shocking knowing whatit's going to be every time I walked
out the door, it's like, oh,yeah, that's right again.
I found it to be a veryvisceral experience, so it's possible
(14:41):
that it's communicated on thepages of this thriller.
You know, And I got to bringthis up just as a little side note.
I was in Dallas last week fora podcast.
Podcast convention.
And, you know, I'm this.
I'm used to 72 to about 78every single day, except maybe the
dead of summer.
Oddly, it's reverse.
(15:03):
But I stepped off that plane.
It was 105 with 98.5% humidity.
And I had forgotten, evenbeing from the south, just how that
could smack you in the face.
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
I like Using the locationthough is also part of the stress.
I mean, for Frankie.
(15:24):
Yeah, this is very stressfulbecause not used to it.
But also when you talk aboutthese families that are being placed
and basically, you know, themurder unit means you're lucky because
you got a cheap apartment.
But you know, the ACs arebarely working.
I mean, again, the amount ofphysical, financial, emotional pressure
(15:45):
on these families.
And I think the bestthrillers, the best stories come
from that place.
Now this next question isgoing to feel like Captain Obvious
and I should, I feel like Ishould be wearing a cap, going, you
can call me Captain Obvious.
But Zara's determination tofind her mom hit me.
But did it make you think.
(16:07):
And it again, this is Captain Obvious.
Did it make you think abouthow far you would go if what you'd
have to risk for family?
And I have to believe you didbecause to be able to put that viscerally
on the page is your craft.
Well, and what I loved when Iwas writing it is I didn't really
(16:30):
know what to do with Zara, afour year old girl.
And we need her because youhave to have a heart to the story.
You really need a compellingreason why Frankie shouldn't just
be looking for this missingmom, but she must find her.
You know, this four littlegirl who was born in a refugee camp,
whose entire life has beentrauma, needs her mom back.
(16:50):
And that's a little like, Idon't know, Charles Dickens.
It's like, well, yeah, okay,so at a certain point I'm like, no,
we actually need to know who.
Zara needs to be her ownperson too, her own character.
And it is a family we learn ofkind of intellectual superpowers.
You know, the father's thisbrilliant mathematician, the missing
(17:10):
mom has this gift with languages.
It's like, you know, Zaraneeds a gift and for her it's memory
because what a curse also.
And it does make her this old soul.
And she, I just love when shefirst meets Frankie and Frankie's
like, I swear she's lookingright inside and she already knows
every hope, regret, love, lossI've ever experienced in 30 seconds.
(17:36):
It's funny, you just used theexact four letter word that I said.
If it was.
If there was a tent poleholding this story up, it would be
the word hope.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Because that's the other thing.
For all the heartbreakingstories I heard to our point, everyone
was so grateful to be here.
(17:56):
I mean, being.
You don't know, will you beplaced so to be Placed in America
is like winning the lottery.
We remain so, such a beacon of hope.
And these families have comefrom a terrible place.
They're facing terrible odds.
But here, there really is the stability.
You know, it's going to betough going in the beginning, but,
(18:19):
you know, they can.
They can work.
They do have a roof over their head.
They do have access to food.
I mean, they can start makinga new future for their family.
And that is what it's allabout, is all about their children,
their future, and feeling safe again.
Well, another point thathappens in all of your books now.
(18:42):
I have not read every singleone of your books, Lisa.
I've tried.
I just don't have the time.
There's so many of them.
I've been busy.
But in all of your, you know,all your books, love, your love of
travel shines, do you find.
Have you.
Can you imagine yourselfwriting a book that does not involve
(19:03):
travel?
In other words, I'm going tosit down and do something maybe completely
different, but that does notinvolve that number one passion of
yours.
I can't imagine it.
For me, it's the refresher.
I mean, to your point, I'vebeen a writer for 35 years now.
I've written a lot of thrillers.
So travel is often what I doright after finishing one book to
kind of refill the well.
(19:24):
And sometimes it's ending upat a location that's so cool.
Like last time we spoke, aremote atoll which became the setting
for Still See youe Everywhere.
This time it was meeting this couple.
And over dinner, they'retalking about their volunteer work
with Afghan refugees in Tucson.
And the more they talk aboutthe obstacles and what this is really
like.
Like, I think I know what refugees.
(19:46):
But then when they were donetalking, it's like, oh, I. I barely
knew anything.
It's like, oh, my God, this isthe perfect Frankie story.
Well, again, not to make itabout me, but my wife and I are gonna
finally take a vacation.
It's our honeymoon.
If you wanna be really insidescoop on it.
We've only been planning thisfor about eight years, Lisa.
(20:07):
Finally gonna do it.
But we're going to London.
So what could I study in London?
And that's the first leg.
That's the first week.
By the way, folks, I'm gonnaput this.
Now, if you don't hear from memuch in September, it's.
Cause I'm taking the entiremonth off.
But London, what have you donein London that I.
You go, David, inside scoop.
You gotta do this.
Well, in that Way I'm kind ofa boring traveler for you because
(20:29):
what I love to do in Londonany place is just walk around.
And actually London, I lovethe parks.
Nice.
I mean, what an amazingcollection of.
And I mean the trees arehundreds of years old and the collection
of the ducks in the.
What is it?
The St. James Park.
I mean, I can do.
It's like you came all the wayto London to be in parks and it's
(20:50):
like, yes.
And it was great.
And buy a little snack at acafe and sit in the park and watch
the people.
I'm a people watcher, so.
And you know, then the nextbook writes itself.
So let's see, 35 books.
You must have started when youwere about 7 years old.
So here's my question.
Do you.
There's, there's a couplethings that I was.
(21:11):
As I was meditating overcoffee this morning.
I'm like, I want to ask Lisa.
Ask that.
I just standard questionslike, what would you write if you
weren't writing a thriller?
So hold that one for a second.
You know, there's bound to be.
I, I know a writer is a writerand will write anything no matter
what.
So I'd like to know what itwould be if you weren't doing that
number.
Do you ever say to yourself,is there ever a moment where you're
(21:34):
afraid where you go, oh,Jesus, I'm not gonna be able to pull
anything out this time, youknow, I know there.
I know the gray matter is working.
I just don't have anything.
So two part question.
I've.
One of the things you get withtime as a writer is you learn what
helps you get in the groove orget unstuck.
(21:54):
Because it definitely does happen.
For me.
It's one of the reasons I livein the mountains.
Anytime I'm stuck with a bookwhere I need the next idea, like
what is going to happentomorrow in this novel?
Because I don't block, so I'mhaving to find it each day is that's
hiking the mountains.
It's taking my dogs andhitting the trails.
And by the end of it.
Okay, now I got it.
This is what we're going to do.
(22:15):
So.
Okay, hold on a second.
Tap the brakes.
You don't plot.
You just sit down and whipthese four 40, 450400 pages of deliciousness
just like that.
I would like to say like that,but it's more like two steps forward,
(22:36):
one step back, two stepsforward, six steps back.
It is a messy, iterative, lotsof revision along the way and Then
there's this just, there's this.
All these years later, there'sstill this magic moment.
And it's generally toward theend where you're all of a sudden,
I know what this book isactually about.
I actually, even better, Iknow who did it, because I don't.
(22:59):
And the fact that, yeah, it,you just always get that magic moment.
I think I come back for thatas much as anything.
And so back to the fear point.
Is there anything that youjust go, that you wake up, you sit
down at the blank page, slashscreen and you, you know, just something.
What's the note?
I wrote the note, veryspecific was what do you, what are
(23:20):
you afraid of?
What do you fear?
I wrote it down here because Iwant to make sure I'm very specific.
It's, hold on, here it is.
How do you keep the fear, howdo you keep the fear of failure at
bay?
And what's your biggest fearof writing?
You know, this is why I lovebelonging to writing communities,
because the fear of failureand the sense of the imposter syndrome
we call it looms very large.
(23:41):
And I think for any artistprobably is true.
I think it helps for me thatI'm a character based writer.
So weirdly enough, I thinkthat this less is my book or at a
certain point, this is Sabra'sstory, this is Frankie's story and
I'm just trying to get theirstory out for them and having a little
(24:03):
bit of a distance makes itless daunting.
You know, it's so funny, whenI started writing and I've got 9
self pubmed under my belt now,I was all about, ooh, make the setting
the star and make sure youhave all the description words you
possibly can.
And with time.
I know, I know, sorry, I'madmit, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling
(24:25):
my pants down here.
But 10 years, 20 years later,10 years later, plus I go, all right,
Dave, well, what kind of booksdo you really enjoy reading?
I'm like, no, no, no, I likethe books that you, I got the.
You walked into a park, it'sdark, a sound is in the far distance.
I'm always, I got scared.
You don't have to tell me whatcolor the.
(24:47):
You know.
Yeah, so.
And your, and your stories,your stories do that because here
it is, characters.
If I'm interested in thecharacters, I don't care what the
bloody hell you do.
I don't care if you're, you'resitting in a room just talking.
And you do that for A fewpages on.
Honestly, I mean, as much as Ilove to rip pages, if that, if those
care, if I'm, if I love thosecharacters, if I'm drawn to those
(25:10):
characters and you're makingme inspired or thinking or feeling
or hurting or crying orlaughing by the actions of those
characters, I'm in.
And that's how I am also, evenas a reader.
So it's one of the things, Imean, I don't actually care about
genre.
I'll read anything.
It's the person, you know, ifI care about the character.
(25:31):
We can be fantasy, we can bethriller, we can be cozy mystery,
we can be coming of age.
And so for me it has alwaysbeen about the character.
All right, now I asked you aquestion and then I bounced over
and I'll let you slip, but I'mgoing to come back around.
So if you weren't writingthrillers, mysteries, suspense and
(25:51):
you can share it with me.
We're girlfriends, you can say that.
What would you be doing?
Well, I've had many peoplesuggest and I kind of toss it around
the back of my head.
I love my dogs and animals andI've done animal rescue work and
they're like, you tell funnylittle stories about your dog.
Like it'd be great to do likea dog book of some kind or you know,
and I don't like where thedogs are the characters kind of thing.
(26:13):
And it's like that would bekind of fun or children's book, something
like that.
I don't know.
It'd be fun.
Oh, come on.
I would so read that.
I mean we have a 12, 13, 14month old yellow lab and.
Oh, oh wait.
Oh wait, I'm gonna have to,I'm gonna have to.
Oh my goodness.
Adorable.
(26:33):
Now of course this is at, youknow, six months, but the, and I've,
I've had dogs in the past, butthere's something magical about this
dog.
Something just magical.
The way she'll look at me andsometimes talk to me.
Okay, co kids, I'm not reallycrazy, but I would love that.
Lisa, I especially now, Idon't know your little stories from
(26:53):
your friends, but I, I wouldchallenge you on a whim, on a funsy.
I mean you're establishedenough as a baller writer.
You can do kind of whateverthe hell you want to, so why not?
It's in the, you know, it'ssomething I think about.
But in the meantime, for therecord, the character that surprised
(27:14):
me the most and kiss hergoodbye that I actually threw in
to challenge Myself andFrankie was Petunia, the green iguana.
Because I had a friend who hadiguanas and loved them and kept telling
stories about the iguanas.
Sit on his lap and he couldpet the iguanas.
I'm like, you're insane.
Dogs sit on laps.
Iguana should be outside, noton your lap.
And I have to say petunia.
(27:36):
I mean, I loved Petunia.
By the end, I am all up on my iguanas.
Now, the juxtaposition ofpetunia for an iguana, yeah, that'd
be like if you had a bullmastiff and you called it puff, you
(27:56):
know, or, you know, muffin.
Petunia has attitude.
And we learned Petunia hassome skills too.
So, I mean, I know I'm likeall about iguana now.
All right, well, as we startto wrap, I. I asked you this before,
back in March, and.
And I'm going to ask it again,only because.
(28:17):
And I. Geez, I. I did notremember you were a.
A panther.
What is that best writingadvice that you.
Maybe you have a sticky noteon your desk.
Maybe you have a pillow needlepointed across the room.
I don't even know if you'reinto that or not, but a mantra that
you live by, something thatyou're you, that you tell a good
(28:40):
friend.
Maybe not that you're going totell a room full of strangers at
a conference, but you'd say,hey, Sally, my good friend, if you
had a friend named Sally.
Here's my best writing advice.
If you want to do it, justreach the end.
It can be awful, it can be theshitty draft.
We call it the vomit draft.
But you have to get to the endbecause then you can fix it.
(29:02):
But if you write a ton ofshort, little, even the best words
in the world or the bestscenes, but you never actually produce
a book.
It doesn't matter howbrilliant those scenes are, there's
nothing you can do with them, folks.
Stitch that on a pillow.
You know, it's funny, I was worried.
I started yesterday about 5 o'clock in the morning.
I finished last night around 8.
(29:22):
I'm doing a. I'm building a website.
I'm doing a few other thingsfor some people and.
But I'm also working on a book.
And at about 7 o' clock lastnight, I pulled out my book.
I'm looking at my notes and Idon't know what it was, why out of
nowhere, I was going throughmy notes and I'm going, oh shit.
This big chunk right Heremakes no sense.
Like it makes sense, but itbelongs maybe up there or there.
(29:46):
And I started getting freakedout and I'm like, well, that's like
12,000 words.
I can't just toss that aside.
So to your point, I thought,okay, let's just stop right now.
By then it was about 8:30, I'dhad enough, go to bed, get up in
the morning, get it, fresheyes, hit it again and go, hey, at
least you had all this writtento your point.
(30:08):
Now you can just trim it out.
Yeah.
And it is weird.
There's sometimes I've writtenthings and realized, oh, no, wait,
that should be the beginningor that should be the middle.
You have it, you know, that'swhat you want to start with.
And you need to give yourselfpermission to write badly, as long
as you make it to the end.
And see, this is kind of funny because.
And I'm going to sound like areal idiot saying this, but I look
(30:31):
at someone like you with yourkind of track record and tenure,
and I go, well, she.
She doesn't have any problems anymore.
I'm sure there are other.
My listeners are going, youknow, Lisa's.
She's an old pro.
She doesn't run into that.
So when I hear you go, oh, myGod, it gives me hope.
So, yeah, kiss her goodbye.
Tortured me.
It was just.
It was so different.
And then you learn so much,and now you're bogging it down and
(30:54):
trying to find the heart ofthe novel, which really, it has to
be the family.
The family.
I mean, I feel like I wrotelike five books to be able to give
you this one.
Kiss her goodbye.
And that's highly, highlyinefficient, especially for someone
who's been doing this for 35 years.
Yeah.
Are you at a place, Lisa, aswe close, are you at a place where
(31:15):
you can.
And I know, look, we're all about.
Kiss her goodbye.
Folks, you're gonna wanna get this.
Tilting, tilting, tilting.
You wanna get this and read it.
You'll enjoy it.
But is there something you'reworking on right now we can hear
about?
I'm actually really excitedfor my next novel, which will be
a standalone for the firsttime in a long time.
And it takes place in themountains of New Hampshire.
(31:36):
And I love the Gothics, and Igrew up with romantic suspense and
things like that.
So it's the mysterious youngcouple that buys this run that was
the site of an infamousunsolved mystery where a family of
six disappeared in the middleof the night and there's bloody footprints
everywhere.
And there's a stray dog namedDog that knows things no dog should
know.
(31:56):
I mean, it is really a lot of fun.
Oh, wow.
And estimated drop date, 26next year.
Yeah, probably August 2026.
That's the plan.
If you know who did it, feelfree to tell me.
Lisa, thank you so much, folks.
If you want to know more, goto LisaGardiner.com Lisa is always
(32:18):
such a pleasure and good luckto you here.
So much fun.
Enjoy your honeymoon.
Thank you.
About time, right?
Yes.
Thank you.
Foreign.
Welcome to the Thriller Zone.
I'm your host, Dave Temple.
Happy summer or close tofinishing the summer.
Can you believe it?
Where has this summer gone?
Well, I'll tell you one thing,I have been working most of the summer.
(00:21):
Yeah, I mean show after showafter show.
Yeah.
August, I slowed down a little bit.
September, I'm taking off now.
I'm pre recording the show sothat we'll drop in September, which
when you see this, of courseit will be September.
How you doing?
But yeah, wife and I aretaking a little vacation which you'll
hear about inside the show asI speak with our guest, Lisa Gardner,
(00:44):
who has written this smashing book.
Kiss her goodbye.
So stay tuned for thatconversation in a moment and we'll
check back in with you in, oh,I don't know, October.
I'm not going anywhere just yet.
Just hang with me.
Daddy needs a break.
Daddy and mom are going totake a vacay.
(01:05):
It's about time, right?
Hey, listen, before we getgoing into the show, let me just
say thank you so much forbeing there.
I attended a podcastconvention recently with my good
friend Jonathan Ayala ofReframe fm.
And I realized something thatI have really thoroughly enjoyed
(01:27):
recording this show.
I really have.
Excuse me while, I'll takesome water.
And I've thoroughly enjoyedthe show four years in the making,
approaching 300 episodes.
Somebody asked me the otherday, how many books have you read?
And I'm like, probably closeto 300.
Seriously.
Even some of the books thatnever made it on the show I was reading.
(01:48):
Couple of things are going tochange here.
I'm not reading as many booksas I would as I have been.
You know why?
Because I'm writing my own books.
That's right.
Oh, you want to see it?
No, I can't do that.
I have been working on thisbook for some time.
You're going to hear moreabout that inside the show too.
But I realized, and I've beentalking to a couple of my good friends,
(02:08):
Jack Stewart, Anthony Goodell,a couple of different guys, Chris
Haughty and just, and, and,and they keep saying to me, dude,
why are you not spending moretime writing?
We know how much you lovebooks and how much you love to write.
And, and so after four yearsand a lot of gray hair, can you believe
the color of my hair nowversus when I started?
(02:29):
I should pull up a, a pictureof me when I first started this show,
which would have been 21.
Yeah, yeah.
Browner.
Much browner.
But anyway, my point is I, Iwant to do some more writing.
And to do that writing, ittakes research and travel, et cetera.
(02:51):
So that's why you're going tosee me bounce in and out.
Anyway, I'm also working onsomething else, something very new,
very fresh.
I'll share that in the coming days.
I realized I've just hit thethree minute mark of babbling and
we got to get to the show.
Lisa Gardner is a delightful gal.
I love speaking with her.
She's one of the good people, right?
(03:12):
I mean, she's just.
And she's talented.
Oh, my goodness.
I did learn a few thingsinside today's show that I haven't
known before.
So I think you're going toenjoy that.
So without any further ado,this is your host Dave Temple saying
thank you once again.
Feel free to reach out at anytime atthethriserzone.com and stay
tuned for some new, fresh, newfun stuff in the very near future.
(03:36):
David, you're such a tease.
All right, folks, here's LisaGardner on the Thriller Zone.
That is so perfectly framed.
Very nice top.
Very nice books display.
This poor book cover isactually a little too shiny.
We're going to do this.
We're going to put in the non glossy.
You've been at this a while.
(03:57):
Plus I'll hold this up fromtime to time and I'll tilt it forward.
I used to be a QVC host, so I,Yeah, I used to.
You know how to handle the gloss?
You got to do that.
You got to handle it like this.
One hand here, one hand here.
Always have a manicure.
And tilt forward.
Yeah.
Oh, I don't even have the manicure.
I have gardening hands.
Oh, no.
You know, one thing, by theway, we're started.
(04:19):
Welcome to the Thriller Zone.
Welcome back.
Thank you, David.
I'm happy we're able to makethis work out.
Yes.
Thank you.
You know, one thing I don'talways do, which I did with you this
time, I went back to your acknowledgments.
And, and I always find everyonce in a while I go in there, I'm
like, who, who, who are thesecats hanging out with and studying
with and, and thanking?
(04:40):
And one thing here, I, I, Ithink I knew this, but In March of
23, let's see, we got togetherand I think the last time we talked
it was March of 24.
So we may have met.
That would make sense.
Yeah.
March 24th, the last book.
Yep.
But you were you playing,literally playing with gray whales
in Baja's California Magdalena Bay.
(05:02):
Oh, it was a fabulous trip.
You go out and it was NationalGeographic, and you just sit in little
boats and the whales will comechoose you.
So particularly the youngerwhales will play with the boats.
We had one day a large whale,it was blowing bubbles.
They'll dive under and around,and they're just curious and they
(05:23):
just seem to enjoy, you know,amusing themselves.
Two things come to my mind.
Whales and.
And dolphins have this love of humans.
And.
And then on top of that,something that completely surprised
me.
And.
And if you trust Instagram,Lisa, if you trust Instagram, I'm
(05:45):
watching all these peoplehanging out with sharks and come
to find out, I always thoughtthe sharks are predators and we're
just going to eat you regardless.
But some of these cats areunder the water petting the sharks
noses and, you know, some ofthem have rescued them in the past
and the sharks know how tofind them again, so they're operating
on a different frequency thanwe are.
(06:06):
As a thriller author, perhapsI should be petting sharks, but I
might not actually be thatbrave a traveler.
I've done some pretty weird things.
I'm going to stick to petting dogs.
Okay.
Yes.
I have mine on my lap inposition right now.
And what kind of dog do we have?
I have a little Carn Terrier,like a Toto.
(06:27):
Nice.
I love it.
Well, kiss her.
Kiss her goodbye.
Fantastic read.
We're gonna.
We're gonna jump in here justto make sure we get everything done.
But referencing this researchthat you do, because Baja was research,
right?
Reason, Absolutely.
Okay.
I know that you're a researchjunkie and it shines in this book,
(06:49):
so I want to come out.
I'm gonna come out with someheavy questions, then I'm gonna back
off.
But between this refugeeexperience, the trauma, forensic
detail, this book feels theonly word I could think of because
I always try to do this.
I. I read the book, I take mynotes, then I go, how does it.
How did it hit you?
What does it make you feel?
I'm like, this feels lived in,this feels real, this feels organic.
(07:11):
It feels a little bit morelike I'm watching a movie rather
than reading a book, which I always.
To me, that's the bestcompliment I could give you.
And so to that point, do you think.
How do you think yourdedication to this craft, the research,
the digging so deep into realworlds shapes that emotional, psychological
(07:32):
depth, which it does in spadesof both Sabera.
I hope I'm saying this.
Sabera and Zara's characters.
So for me, Kiss or Goodbye wasthe most intense research I'VE done.
Because it was also different.
Yeah.
I mean, to your point, I loveto research, but being a thriller
author, generally it's procedural.
You know, I'm with the FBI orthe police or SWAT team.
(07:53):
It's all really good stuff.
But I'm learning how to dosomething well, to write this book
about Afghan refugees and theexperience of coming to the United
States.
And then I started to realizeit is a family story.
So who they were also inAfghanistan was interviewing people.
I felt like I got to be likemy heroine, Frankie Elkin, a little
(08:15):
bit.
My job was to.
I had friends that wereconnecting me with various refugees,
and I was amazed they werewilling to talk.
And then my job was to listenand just absorb their stories.
And, oh, my goodness, the heartbreak.
I mean, you know, it's goingto be heartbreaking, but, I mean,
there were sessions I justcried at the end.
Sometimes I cried with them atthe end.
(08:36):
I mean, it's a level of lossto lose your entire country, your
extended family, your culture.
And, I mean, Kabul fell in,like, eight hours.
Like, I just.
It'd be like New York City wasthere in the morning and not in the
afternoon.
Like, I just.
I can't even wrap my brainaround it.
And to that point, we take, asAmericans, I think we take so much
(08:57):
for granted because we live inthis safe, open society where a lot
of freedom is enjoyed.
And when I read this story andI think about the folks in.
Oh, geez, I dropped the word Ukraine.
Yeah, You.
You.
You realize what we take forgranted and how we shouldn't.
(09:19):
And when I'm.
And back to your.
My point in youracknowledgments, the volume of people
that you thanked, which toldme that all of this was verified,
justified all along the way.
It's kind of mind blowing.
I was so blown away by howmany people were willing to talk
to me.
And it was also reallyinteresting, too, because some things
were challenging.
(09:40):
You know, when I start talkingto refugees, one of the first one,
a big, big chunk of therefugee experience.
I mean, because it takes yearsto finally get placed in the United
States or anywhere in the world.
It's a UN designation, it'slegally recognized, but you have
to wait for your placement.
You're spending that time in arefugee camp.
And one of the first thingsall the volunteer coordinators told
(10:02):
me when I was talking,speaking to the refugees here in
the US that had been placedwas, don't ask about the refugee
camps.
They will not speak of it.
It's too traumatic.
It would be A rude thing to dofor them, to put them back in that.
So don't ask about the refugee camps.
So now I'm like, but I can'trelate this experience without talking
(10:24):
about the refugee camps.
But actually the sister of myeditor had volunteered in one.
And after talking to her andgetting hooked up with people like
from Doctors Without Borders,I mean, hearing about those experiences
was in many ways even moremind boggling because, I mean, some
of these refugee camps, Imean, they're like a thousand percent
(10:46):
overcrowded, but they workbecause of the volunteers, because
of the refugees stepping up tohelp other refugees.
What I learned is there are alot of Frankie Elkins out there in
the world.
There are a lot of strangerswho've committed themselves to helping
strangers.
Yeah.
And thank God for that, right?
Yes.
At the heart, as we know, forthose who have read it or are considering
(11:10):
reading, is a missing mom andher daughter who won't give up.
Do you connect more with themystery itself or the mother daughter
bond?
And I know that's kind of anodd question, but I was.
But I think you know what I'm.
Saying there, I feel themystery doesn't work if you're not
connected to that motherdaughter bond.
(11:30):
That the whole point with agreat thriller is what's at stake.
Right.
I mean, we like the academicpuzzle, the fact that there's codes
in this book and a little girleven has this very cool riddle that
I didn't actually know theanswer to for a while.
I mean, that's the fun stuff,but you get connected and tied into
it because of the motherdaughter and because it's something
we can relate to as a parent,as a person.
(11:54):
The heartbreak and heartbreakpotential is what we all relate to.
And that's one thing I walkedaway with.
And that's, you know, it's so funny.
We read thrillers to turn thepages and to escape and so forth.
But when you get a chance tobe thrilled and moved at the same
time, which doesn't happen ifI'm reading two books a week, I don't,
(12:15):
I don't run across that everymonth, is what I'm saying.
Lisa, There is some heart.
There is a lot of heart in alot of the books, but there isn't
the dramatic heart, loss, painlike in this book.
And, and the other thing is,you know, Frankie never stays in
one place very long.
Makes me think of my radiocareer when I'm bouncing all over
(12:35):
the country.
But I'm like, do you thinkthat kind of drifting makes her stronger?
Or just more lonely.
What I love about Frankie isI'm still learning her.
I think we all are.
You know, she's an everydayperson on this crazy mission, you
know, to search for the vanishthat nobody else is even looking
(12:56):
for.
And it bounces her around, butin a way, I think she needs.
I think Franke, if she staysin one place too long, it's almost
like gets itchy, and that'swhen sobriety and returning to drinking
become more and more of anissue for her.
So kind of being this Rollingstone, and I think we can all relate.
(13:19):
It's easier to solve otherpeople's problems.
It's a great way to kind ofavoid your own.
I mean, maybe it's not thebest method out there, but it's.
It's working for Frankie.
You put it.
So you put it well, because you.
You know what?
Let me.
Let me solve your problembecause, geez, I do not want to put
a mirror in my face.
Exactly.
(13:39):
Exactly.
Another thing I loved aboutthis, and living in a Mediterranean
kind of climate, as I do inSan Diego, and we visit the.
The desert a lot because ourfamilies out there, the.
The.
The.
The feeling of desert was so vivid.
I mean, I. I could.
I could feel the heat comingoff the page.
And it.
(14:00):
I get that it showed Frankiebeing out of her element, but I have
to believe, again, circlingback to my opening comment, this
has to be a reflection of thelove of your.
Your love of desert and.
And your travels.
That's one thing I love aboutyour books is.
It's.
I always know.
Okay, if Lisa's talking aboutblank, blank, blank, blank, she's
(14:21):
lived it.
I love Tucson, though.
I would admit one of thereasons I read about the heat so
much is from the mountains ofNew Hampshire.
It was shocking knowing whatit's going to be every time I walked
out the door, it's like, oh,yeah, that's right again.
I found it to be a veryvisceral experience, so it's possible
(14:41):
that it's communicated on thepages of this thriller.
You know, And I got to bringthis up just as a little side note.
I was in Dallas last week fora podcast.
Podcast convention.
And, you know, I'm this.
I'm used to 72 to about 78every single day, except maybe the
dead of summer.
Oddly, it's reverse.
(15:03):
But I stepped off that plane.
It was 105 with 98.5% humidity.
And I had forgotten, evenbeing from the south, just how that
could smack you in the face.
Yes.
Yes, exactly.
I like Using the locationthough is also part of the stress.
I mean, for Frankie.
(15:24):
Yeah, this is very stressfulbecause not used to it.
But also when you talk aboutthese families that are being placed
and basically, you know, themurder unit means you're lucky because
you got a cheap apartment.
But you know, the ACs arebarely working.
I mean, again, the amount ofphysical, financial, emotional pressure
(15:45):
on these families.
And I think the bestthrillers, the best stories come
from that place.
Now this next question isgoing to feel like Captain Obvious
and I should, I feel like Ishould be wearing a cap, going, you
can call me Captain Obvious.
But Zara's determination tofind her mom hit me.
But did it make you think.
(16:07):
And it again, this is Captain Obvious.
Did it make you think abouthow far you would go if what you'd
have to risk for family?
And I have to believe you didbecause to be able to put that viscerally
on the page is your craft.
Well, and what I loved when Iwas writing it is I didn't really
(16:30):
know what to do with Zara, afour year old girl.
And we need her because youhave to have a heart to the story.
You really need a compellingreason why Frankie shouldn't just
be looking for this missingmom, but she must find her.
You know, this four littlegirl who was born in a refugee camp,
whose entire life has beentrauma, needs her mom back.
(16:50):
And that's a little like, Idon't know, Charles Dickens.
It's like, well, yeah, okay,so at a certain point I'm like, no,
we actually need to know who.
Zara needs to be her ownperson too, her own character.
And it is a family we learn ofkind of intellectual superpowers.
You know, the father's thisbrilliant mathematician, the missing
(17:10):
mom has this gift with languages.
It's like, you know, Zaraneeds a gift and for her it's memory
because what a curse also.
And it does make her this old soul.
And she, I just love when shefirst meets Frankie and Frankie's
like, I swear she's lookingright inside and she already knows
every hope, regret, love, lossI've ever experienced in 30 seconds.
(17:36):
It's funny, you just used theexact four letter word that I said.
If it was.
If there was a tent poleholding this story up, it would be
the word hope.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Because that's the other thing.
For all the heartbreakingstories I heard to our point, everyone
was so grateful to be here.
(17:56):
I mean, being.
You don't know, will you beplaced so to be Placed in America
is like winning the lottery.
We remain so, such a beacon of hope.
And these families have comefrom a terrible place.
They're facing terrible odds.
But here, there really is the stability.
You know, it's going to betough going in the beginning, but,
(18:19):
you know, they can.
They can work.
They do have a roof over their head.
They do have access to food.
I mean, they can start makinga new future for their family.
And that is what it's allabout, is all about their children,
their future, and feeling safe again.
Well, another point thathappens in all of your books now.
(18:42):
I have not read every singleone of your books, Lisa.
I've tried.
I just don't have the time.
There's so many of them.
I've been busy.
But in all of your, you know,all your books, love, your love of
travel shines, do you find.
Have you.
Can you imagine yourselfwriting a book that does not involve
(19:03):
travel?
In other words, I'm going tosit down and do something maybe completely
different, but that does notinvolve that number one passion of
yours.
I can't imagine it.
For me, it's the refresher.
I mean, to your point, I'vebeen a writer for 35 years now.
I've written a lot of thrillers.
So travel is often what I doright after finishing one book to
kind of refill the well.
(19:24):
And sometimes it's ending upat a location that's so cool.
Like last time we spoke, aremote atoll which became the setting
for Still See youe Everywhere.
This time it was meeting this couple.
And over dinner, they'retalking about their volunteer work
with Afghan refugees in Tucson.
And the more they talk aboutthe obstacles and what this is really
like.
Like, I think I know what refugees.
(19:46):
But then when they were donetalking, it's like, oh, I. I barely
knew anything.
It's like, oh, my God, this isthe perfect Frankie story.
Well, again, not to make itabout me, but my wife and I are gonna
finally take a vacation.
It's our honeymoon.
If you wanna be really insidescoop on it.
We've only been planning thisfor about eight years, Lisa.
(20:07):
Finally gonna do it.
But we're going to London.
So what could I study in London?
And that's the first leg.
That's the first week.
By the way, folks, I'm gonnaput this.
Now, if you don't hear from memuch in September, it's.
Cause I'm taking the entiremonth off.
But London, what have you donein London that I.
You go, David, inside scoop.
You gotta do this.
Well, in that Way I'm kind ofa boring traveler for you because
(20:29):
what I love to do in Londonany place is just walk around.
And actually London, I lovethe parks.
Nice.
I mean, what an amazingcollection of.
And I mean the trees arehundreds of years old and the collection
of the ducks in the.
What is it?
The St. James Park.
I mean, I can do.
It's like you came all the wayto London to be in parks and it's
(20:50):
like, yes.
And it was great.
And buy a little snack at acafe and sit in the park and watch
the people.
I'm a people watcher, so.
And you know, then the nextbook writes itself.
So let's see, 35 books.
You must have started when youwere about 7 years old.
So here's my question.
Do you.
There's, there's a couplethings that I was.
(21:11):
As I was meditating overcoffee this morning.
I'm like, I want to ask Lisa.
Ask that.
I just standard questionslike, what would you write if you
weren't writing a thriller?
So hold that one for a second.
You know, there's bound to be.
I, I know a writer is a writerand will write anything no matter
what.
So I'd like to know what itwould be if you weren't doing that
number.
Do you ever say to yourself,is there ever a moment where you're
(21:34):
afraid where you go, oh,Jesus, I'm not gonna be able to pull
anything out this time, youknow, I know there.
I know the gray matter is working.
I just don't have anything.
So two part question.
I've.
One of the things you get withtime as a writer is you learn what
helps you get in the groove orget unstuck.
(21:54):
Because it definitely does happen.
For me.
It's one of the reasons I livein the mountains.
Anytime I'm stuck with a bookwhere I need the next idea, like
what is going to happentomorrow in this novel?
Because I don't block, so I'mhaving to find it each day is that's
hiking the mountains.
It's taking my dogs andhitting the trails.
And by the end of it.
Okay, now I got it.
This is what we're going to do.
(22:15):
So.
Okay, hold on a second.
Tap the brakes.
You don't plot.
You just sit down and whipthese four 40, 450400 pages of deliciousness
just like that.
I would like to say like that,but it's more like two steps forward,
(22:36):
one step back, two stepsforward, six steps back.
It is a messy, iterative, lotsof revision along the way and Then
there's this just, there's this.
All these years later, there'sstill this magic moment.
And it's generally toward theend where you're all of a sudden,
I know what this book isactually about.
I actually, even better, Iknow who did it, because I don't.
(22:59):
And the fact that, yeah, it,you just always get that magic moment.
I think I come back for thatas much as anything.
And so back to the fear point.
Is there anything that youjust go, that you wake up, you sit
down at the blank page, slashscreen and you, you know, just something.
What's the note?
I wrote the note, veryspecific was what do you, what are
(23:20):
you afraid of?
What do you fear?
I wrote it down here because Iwant to make sure I'm very specific.
It's, hold on, here it is.
How do you keep the fear, howdo you keep the fear of failure at
bay?
And what's your biggest fearof writing?
You know, this is why I lovebelonging to writing communities,
because the fear of failureand the sense of the imposter syndrome
we call it looms very large.
(23:41):
And I think for any artistprobably is true.
I think it helps for me thatI'm a character based writer.
So weirdly enough, I thinkthat this less is my book or at a
certain point, this is Sabra'sstory, this is Frankie's story and
I'm just trying to get theirstory out for them and having a little
(24:03):
bit of a distance makes itless daunting.
You know, it's so funny, whenI started writing and I've got 9
self pubmed under my belt now,I was all about, ooh, make the setting
the star and make sure youhave all the description words you
possibly can.
And with time.
I know, I know, sorry, I'madmit, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm pulling
(24:25):
my pants down here.
But 10 years, 20 years later,10 years later, plus I go, all right,
Dave, well, what kind of booksdo you really enjoy reading?
I'm like, no, no, no, I likethe books that you, I got the.
You walked into a park, it'sdark, a sound is in the far distance.
I'm always, I got scared.
You don't have to tell me whatcolor the.
(24:47):
You know.
Yeah, so.
And your, and your stories,your stories do that because here
it is, characters.
If I'm interested in thecharacters, I don't care what the
bloody hell you do.
I don't care if you're, you'resitting in a room just talking.
And you do that for A fewpages on.
Honestly, I mean, as much as Ilove to rip pages, if that, if those
care, if I'm, if I love thosecharacters, if I'm drawn to those
(25:10):
characters and you're makingme inspired or thinking or feeling
or hurting or crying orlaughing by the actions of those
characters, I'm in.
And that's how I am also, evenas a reader.
So it's one of the things, Imean, I don't actually care about
genre.
I'll read anything.
It's the person, you know, ifI care about the character.
(25:31):
We can be fantasy, we can bethriller, we can be cozy mystery,
we can be coming of age.
And so for me it has alwaysbeen about the character.
All right, now I asked you aquestion and then I bounced over
and I'll let you slip, but I'mgoing to come back around.
So if you weren't writingthrillers, mysteries, suspense and
(25:51):
you can share it with me.
We're girlfriends, you can say that.
What would you be doing?
Well, I've had many peoplesuggest and I kind of toss it around
the back of my head.
I love my dogs and animals andI've done animal rescue work and
they're like, you tell funnylittle stories about your dog.
Like it'd be great to do likea dog book of some kind or you know,
and I don't like where thedogs are the characters kind of thing.
(26:13):
And it's like that would bekind of fun or children's book, something
like that.
I don't know.
It'd be fun.
Oh, come on.
I would so read that.
I mean we have a 12, 13, 14month old yellow lab and.
Oh, oh wait.
Oh wait, I'm gonna have to,I'm gonna have to.
Oh my goodness.
Adorable.
(26:33):
Now of course this is at, youknow, six months, but the, and I've,
I've had dogs in the past, butthere's something magical about this
dog.
Something just magical.
The way she'll look at me andsometimes talk to me.
Okay, co kids, I'm not reallycrazy, but I would love that.
Lisa, I especially now, Idon't know your little stories from
(26:53):
your friends, but I, I wouldchallenge you on a whim, on a funsy.
I mean you're establishedenough as a baller writer.
You can do kind of whateverthe hell you want to, so why not?
It's in the, you know, it'ssomething I think about.
But in the meantime, for therecord, the character that surprised
(27:14):
me the most and kiss hergoodbye that I actually threw in
to challenge Myself andFrankie was Petunia, the green iguana.
Because I had a friend who hadiguanas and loved them and kept telling
stories about the iguanas.
Sit on his lap and he couldpet the iguanas.
I'm like, you're insane.
Dogs sit on laps.
Iguana should be outside, noton your lap.
And I have to say petunia.
(27:36):
I mean, I loved Petunia.
By the end, I am all up on my iguanas.
Now, the juxtaposition ofpetunia for an iguana, yeah, that'd
be like if you had a bullmastiff and you called it puff, you
(27:56):
know, or, you know, muffin.
Petunia has attitude.
And we learned Petunia hassome skills too.
So, I mean, I know I'm likeall about iguana now.
All right, well, as we startto wrap, I. I asked you this before,
back in March, and.
And I'm going to ask it again,only because.
(28:17):
And I. Geez, I. I did notremember you were a.
A panther.
What is that best writingadvice that you.
Maybe you have a sticky noteon your desk.
Maybe you have a pillow needlepointed across the room.
I don't even know if you'reinto that or not, but a mantra that
you live by, something thatyou're you, that you tell a good
(28:40):
friend.
Maybe not that you're going totell a room full of strangers at
a conference, but you'd say,hey, Sally, my good friend, if you
had a friend named Sally.
Here's my best writing advice.
If you want to do it, justreach the end.
It can be awful, it can be theshitty draft.
We call it the vomit draft.
But you have to get to the endbecause then you can fix it.
(29:02):
But if you write a ton ofshort, little, even the best words
in the world or the bestscenes, but you never actually produce
a book.
It doesn't matter howbrilliant those scenes are, there's
nothing you can do with them, folks.
Stitch that on a pillow.
You know, it's funny, I was worried.
I started yesterday about 5 o'clock in the morning.
I finished last night around 8.
(29:22):
I'm doing a. I'm building a website.
I'm doing a few other thingsfor some people and.
But I'm also working on a book.
And at about 7 o' clock lastnight, I pulled out my book.
I'm looking at my notes and Idon't know what it was, why out of
nowhere, I was going throughmy notes and I'm going, oh shit.
This big chunk right Heremakes no sense.
Like it makes sense, but itbelongs maybe up there or there.
(29:46):
And I started getting freakedout and I'm like, well, that's like
12,000 words.
I can't just toss that aside.
So to your point, I thought,okay, let's just stop right now.
By then it was about 8:30, I'dhad enough, go to bed, get up in
the morning, get it, fresheyes, hit it again and go, hey, at
least you had all this writtento your point.
(30:08):
Now you can just trim it out.
Yeah.
And it is weird.
There's sometimes I've writtenthings and realized, oh, no, wait,
that should be the beginningor that should be the middle.
You have it, you know, that'swhat you want to start with.
And you need to give yourselfpermission to write badly, as long
as you make it to the end.
And see, this is kind of funny because.
And I'm going to sound like areal idiot saying this, but I look
(30:31):
at someone like you with yourkind of track record and tenure,
and I go, well, she.
She doesn't have any problems anymore.
I'm sure there are other.
My listeners are going, youknow, Lisa's.
She's an old pro.
She doesn't run into that.
So when I hear you go, oh, myGod, it gives me hope.
So, yeah, kiss her goodbye.
Tortured me.
It was just.
It was so different.
And then you learn so much,and now you're bogging it down and
(30:54):
trying to find the heart ofthe novel, which really, it has to
be the family.
The family.
I mean, I feel like I wrotelike five books to be able to give
you this one.
Kiss her goodbye.
And that's highly, highlyinefficient, especially for someone
who's been doing this for 35 years.
Yeah.
Are you at a place, Lisa, aswe close, are you at a place where
(31:15):
you can.
And I know, look, we're all about.
Kiss her goodbye.
Folks, you're gonna wanna get this.
Tilting, tilting, tilting.
You wanna get this and read it.
You'll enjoy it.
But is there something you'reworking on right now we can hear
about?
I'm actually really excitedfor my next novel, which will be
a standalone for the firsttime in a long time.
And it takes place in themountains of New Hampshire.
(31:36):
And I love the Gothics, and Igrew up with romantic suspense and
things like that.
So it's the mysterious youngcouple that buys this run that was
the site of an infamousunsolved mystery where a family of
six disappeared in the middleof the night and there's bloody footprints
everywhere.
And there's a stray dog namedDog that knows things no dog should
know.
(31:56):
I mean, it is really a lot of fun.
Oh, wow.
And estimated drop date, 26next year.
Yeah, probably August 2026.
That's the plan.
If you know who did it, feelfree to tell me.
Lisa, thank you so much, folks.
If you want to know more, goto LisaGardiner.com Lisa is always
(32:18):
such a pleasure and good luckto you here.
So much fun.
Enjoy your honeymoon.
Thank you.
About time, right?
Yes.
Thank you.
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