Double the Thrills: A Memorial Day Special!

Episode Transcript
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(01:17):
On today's 228th episode ofthe Thriller Zone.
It's what I'm calling a doubleshot of thrill seeking behavior from
your good friend and podcasthost, Dave Temple.
Hello there.
Now, what do I mean by that?
Well, first of all, today'sshow is a Thursday throwback.
Why do you ask?
Two reasons.
It's Memorial Day weekend and,well, frankly, Daddy needs to take

(01:39):
a break.
You see, Tammy and I havebeen, as my late mother used to say,
we've been burning the candleon both ends and it's thin enough
to skate on.
Now, I never really fullyunderstood that saying, but you get
the idea.
So, yeah, the two temples aretaking a break this week.
The second reason, as I wasreflecting upon past shows I really
enjoyed, I thought, hey, I'mgoing to go back to last year's Memorial

(01:59):
Day weekend show where I found Mr.
Jon Katzenbach talking abouthis dark thriller Jack's Boys.
Then I thought, well, wait a minute.
What if we were to go back two years?
And that brought me to MatthewQuirk, the creator of the Night Agent,
and where we talked about hisriveting thriller and inside threat.
So what does it mean?
Well, this means for your longMemorial Day holiday weekend here

(02:21):
in the States, anyway, you'reabout to enjoy a twofer Thursday,
AKA Thriller double shot withtwo giants of thriller fiction, John
Katzenbach and Matthew Quirk.
So kick back in your lawnchair, stretch out on your hammock,
pull out a cool beverage ortwo, unless, of course, you're driving
to see family and enjoy two,two, two hits in one here on the

(02:45):
Thriller Zone.
Let's get into the Thriller Zwith John Kessenbach.
Well, I think we areofficially warmed up.
Welcome to the Thriller Zone,John Katzenbach.
It is so nice to have you here.
It's my pleasure, you know.
Absolutely.
Look at this bad boy.
Yes.
Jack's Boys.
When I miss a day at the gym,I just grab your book and I do a

(03:08):
couple of overhead presses andit really works me well.
David.
It is.
It is longer than I typically.
Right.
When you sit down, you realizeyou've got this story, and then you
get way into it and yourealize you're not there yet, so
you start rowing faster.
Right.
And I'm pretty pleased withthis book, frankly.

(03:31):
You should be.
It's 608 pages of tasty goodness.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Thank you, really.
Actually, what you're talkingabout is the nature of story.
Yes.
And one of the things thatsort of, especially in the world
of thrillers, you worry aboutis not being Complete and not being

(03:53):
sort of psychologicallyattuned to every character, so that
when you get to the end, noone's saying, whatever happened to
Ralph back there.
I really worry about thesethings far more than anyone should
worry about them.
Well, I think you make areally interesting point, and I have

(04:13):
learned this lately, and it'sa phrase that says something to the
effect of trust the reader torecall a lot of that stuff.
Because I was kind of like.
I'm like, well, I need toremind them all along.
No, David, you don't need toremind them.
They give them credit.
They know who's what and where.
Frankly, David, most readersare smarter than I at remembering

(04:37):
all that stuff.
I think that that is atestimonial to the sophistication
that most thriller readers have.
Yeah.
About plot, story, andcharacter, which are, you know, the
sort of the, you know, the,you know, triumvirate that we're
all working under.

(04:58):
Yeah, the meat and potatoes of it.
Yeah, exactly.
We're going to dive intoJack's Boys, of course.
But I want to do this.
I want to take a little bit ofa moment and talk about backstory
or prologue, if will.
I mean, let's talk about you.
I want to get to know youbecause I remember your name years
ago.
I have lost touch with youover the years.

(05:18):
I remember.
Oh, John can't.
Yeah.
Year.
Like, years ago.
Like the movies.
And then.
We're going to get to this ina minute.
And I mentioned.
I'm going to mention a coupleof movies, and I'm like, well, I
know those movies very well,so it's so funny that I feel like
I've known you for.
Well, one of your movies cameout the 85.
A mean season.
I want to say, like 85.

(05:39):
86.
A little earlier.
82.
82, too.
I want to know.
You were a criminal courtreporter at both the Miami Herald
and the News.
How did your work there as areporter influence your eventual
fiction writing?
I always love that particular inquiry.
Okay, that.

(05:59):
That.
Because I went to newspapersbecause I wanted to be able to write
fiction, but I didn't know anything.
Oh.
And so I went to newspapers tolearn about the world as a journalist,
every day.
I considered it like going tothe theater, because what I would

(06:20):
see and what I would hearwould register.
And in some kind of greatpsychological, Freudian mix of things,
you know, you'd hear thingsand pull them out later and install
them into the books.
The value in all of that, it'simmense because you see people in

(06:45):
all Forms of good, bad, andevil that became the template or
the undercurrent for justabout everything I've written.
I so love the way you put thatbecause you really went to school

(07:05):
at the paper to learn thecraft that you eventually turn into
a real career.
Well, my wife often says thatI learned everything I needed to
know about psychopathology inprep school.
But the fact of the matter is,it's really those days as a newspaper

(07:26):
reporter and, you know,starting in New Jersey and then down
in Miami.
I was in Miami at the world'sgreatest time to be a reporter.
I mean, there were.
There were just everythingthat was crazy and weird and wonderful
happened all at once.

(07:47):
Heck, you know, I found a deadbody once.
So, I mean, you know.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Stop the presses.
Where.
What were you doing?
And where did you find said body?
I was in.
I was working for the Herald.
I was.
I had a.
I had a couple days off.
So I was jogging through ourneighborhood in Coral Gables, which

(08:08):
is a absolutely net now is.
It's like, you know, as fancyas you can get.
Oh, yeah.
And I'm jogging along, David,and I look into this empty lot, and
there is, you know, a body out there.
So walked over and.
And, you know, this was at theheight of the drug wars, and the
guy wearing a leather Porschejacket, you know, gold, you know,

(08:32):
chains around his neck, Rolexon his.
On his wrist, and singlegunshot wound to the back of the
head.
You know, I went.
Reached down, you know, feltthe carotid artery and, you know,
it was cold and so knocked ona neighbor's door and said, please
call the police.
Now, here's the funny partabout this story, right?

(08:53):
You know, the police showedup, and I'm waiting there by the
body for them, and they comeup and they.
You know, the first patrol carcomes up and two guys get out and
they come over and they say,that's a dead body.
This is what.
What in the.
The prosecutor's office inDade county they used to call felony

(09:13):
littering at that point.
And one of the cops looks downat me and says, did you see the Rolex?
Yeah.
I said, yeah.
And he just shakes his head like.
Like, you know, any damn foolwould have reached down there, taken
the Rolex, put it in theirpocket, you know, and then called

(09:35):
the police.
Yeah, I mean, but, I mean, that's.
I mean, that was what Miamiwas like back then.
You know, you name it, ithappened in Florida.
What does this say about youthat you didn't lift the rollie well,
it.
Says that I'm a fundamentallyhonest guy and not quite as smart
as I think I should be.
Nice to make this the storysomewhat serious.

(09:58):
Okay.
You know, it was understanding.
You know, you're sitting thereas a reporter and you realize how
valueless certain lives can be.
And then for me, I, I had tosay to myself, okay, how am I going

(10:19):
to measure that?
Remember that sensation?
And how is that going to gointo a novel at a later point?
So there's a great correlationbetween all these things.
So that visceral, palpablechill, so to speak, of finding a
dead body you translated intoa future story.

(10:41):
Can you remember where thatstory went?
Where that experience waswoven into a story?
Can you recall?
I think that there areelements of it and the sort of callousness
that I felt for this, youknow, dead drug dealer and the cops
that showed up and the Rolex,you know, I took that sort of, you

(11:04):
know, this where you sort ofbecome a psychopath in that moment.
And I've installed that in thecharacters in Jack's Boys.
There are some twisted nelliesin there, that's for sure.
We're going to drill down onthat in just a second, but I got

(11:25):
a two part question which I'mkind of famous for.
How long were you at these twopapers, ballparkish, and were you
writing fiction on the sidewhile covering the beat or were you.
Because I, I got a pretty goodidea that you're working long hours,
long days in a week, but didyou scroll away some time where you

(11:47):
would, you know, inject someof that data that you were gathering
while writing or did you justkind of go, I just need to get this
job done.
And then later down the roadI'll, I'll start the real writing.
I'm glad you asked that actually.
You know, there's the old sawabout every reporter's got a novel
in their desk drawer.

(12:07):
Yeah, mine was all in my head.
And there reached a pointwhere I realized I'd been a reporter
for about 11, 12, 13 yearscovering all sorts of stuff.
And I realized that if Ididn't take the time and try to write
a novel at that point, thatthe opportunity might slide past.

(12:31):
So I actually took, I had toget a new apartment.
I was with my soon to be wifeand we had to get a new apartment.
And this guy had thiswonderful old Gables apartment in
a building that he wasintending to tear down eventually.

(12:52):
So he said to us, you know, hesaid, you guys can have.
The apartment is $140 a month enough.
It was like getting a, it waslike getting a grant, you know, I
mean, yeah, a MacArthur Grant,you know, a genius grant, sure.
I said, yes, we can pay that.
And so about the next day, Iwent into the paper and I said, I'm

(13:12):
going to take a leave of absence.
Shortly before then I had had,you know, that sort of aha.
Conversation with my soon tobe wife where she had asked me how
had things gone that day atthe newspaper.
And I said, well, you know,everything's okay.
I got a good story or two.

(13:32):
But, you know, I got halfdozen phone calls from the jail.
You know, those guys alwayscall up and say, I didn't do it.
And they all did.
And, and I said, wouldn't itbe more interesting if somebody called
and said I did do it?
Yeah.
And that became, I went, ah.
And that became the basis forthe, my very first novel, which is,

(13:56):
you know, a reporter gets acall from a guy saying, let me explain
why I killed that person.
Wow.
And what's the name of that one.
That was in the Heat of the Summer.
It became filmed with as theMean Season with Kurt Russell and
Meryl Hemingway.
Yeah, yeah.
As long as I'm rambling, letme give you one funny story about.
Please ramble away.

(14:17):
The sub, the subplot in thatwas Vietnam.
You know, this guy was at thatin Vietnam Vet.
And when it came to the filmpeople, the producer, David Foster
called me up and said, ah, youknow, Vietnam's been done.
We got to lose Vietnam.
And I of course said, well,you know, we lost it once in real

(14:37):
life, we can lose it again, Iguess, you know, but anyway, time
passes and we're, they'refilming the, the, the big, big final
scene and they're out in theEverglades and there are these SWAT
teams running around andhelicopters going up overhead.
And David turns to me and hegoes, oh, I get it.
Helicopters, SWAT teams, jungle.

(15:00):
It's Vietnam.
I go, yeah, it's a little late now.
Right, but that's pretty muchwhat I was trying to get at.
Right.
And you know, so there youhave, I mean that's, you know, that,
that whole thing, but it was,it was actually a wonderful moment.
But, but that was my first book.
Yeah, I love stories like that.
And the Mean Season, if Iremember correctly, because I used

(15:20):
to have friends that lived inthat part of the country when I was
in college.
And it's.
I think it was when the stormwould roll in, it would be like those
really miserable thunderstormsand you think, oh, good, it's gonna
crack the heat and it's gonnacool off.
But what happens is it justsaturated and made it worse and it
never got cooler and so thenights were miserable.
Isn't that, that isabsolutely, absolutely the way it

(15:44):
is.
And you know, without beingtoo political here, climate change
has made it worse.
What?
Wait.
Yeah, yeah, no, my, my, my sonand daughter in law live in, in Miami
and it was, you know, the heatindex index was well over 100 in
May.
Yeah.
You know, so, I mean, youknow, so there you have it.

(16:06):
Yeah.
My parents in law live insouth beach and they're always talking
about every time I go down theMosqu, some reason love me, they
eat me up like mad.
And then the, the, the waterdowntown, the, the water table is
rising.
So downtown loves to have alittle bit of flooding from time
to time.
And we had this running jokeof, you know, if you can't afford

(16:29):
beachfront property, just,just wait a few months, years, because
if you're just inside of town,you, you'll, you'll have it.
They.
A couple of years ago, duringone of the big storms, you know,
water was washing up ontoBiscayne Boulevard in downtown Miami.
And, you know, it's a bigshark there, just sitting, you know,

(16:52):
on the, on the road.
But, but, you know, but that'ssort of typical.
I mean, Florida in general,just when you think it can't get
crazier, trust me, it does.
In the writing point of view,you had to be careful, you know,
because the real reality in,in South Florida was so bizarre,

(17:13):
you know, that, you know, youwould try to write some of those,
if you tried to write thosesequences into a novel, you know,
all your, the readers would out.
Oh, don't be ridiculous.
That could never happen.
You know, but it did.
And some of that was calledMiami Vice.
Yeah, exactly.
My favorite Miami Vice story.

(17:33):
This is a very simple one, youknow, Michael Mann, you know, the
first year, you know, they hada Ferrari, right, that Don Johnson,
you know, would drive around it.
And the first year, theydidn't think the show was going to
be a hit, so they got one ofthose kits, you know, it was a Corvette
underneath and just a Ferraribody put on top.

(17:57):
Very cheap, right?
Yeah.
The second year, Don Johnsongoes real Ferrari, you know, and
so, I mean, that's Hollywood, right?
Yes.
I can hear those drums thatstart the soundtrack and I see those
graphics and the pinkflamingos like it was yesterday.

(18:17):
And that was.
Oh, my goodness.
How many is that?
40.
Oh, it's got to be 40 years ago.
Oh, my God.
Mid 80s, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Mann knew a few thingsabout entertainment.
Yeah.
He didn't.
Well, I.
One of the film, you know,directors and producers that I truly
admire.
And you know that after MiamiVice, the first.

(18:40):
Well, the first show happened,you could not go into a store in
Miami and buy anunreconstructed linen suit anywhere.
I mean, every drug dealer intown said, I've got to have that.
Right.
And they were off the every shelf.
Right.
The.
The world of pastels.
Yeah.
And.
And yes, and kudos to MichaelMann because there's a cat who is

(19:01):
still swinging for the fenceevery time I turn around.
I mean, Heat two this last year.
I mean, good.
Yes.
All right.
I feel like I'm drifting, butyou're so engaging.
For folks who don't know who.
What lineage from which you come.
I want to ask what it was likegrowing up in the shadow of your
father.
As we, some of us know, former U.S.
attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach.

(19:23):
I mean, I was reading GettingCaught up and boy, talking about
a guy who had history.
He, he was like on the frontrow of history for decades.
When you're growing up in afamily like that, you're sort of
not really aware of at all.
Sure.
Although, if you look behindme, you can see the 1964 Bob Kennedy

(19:45):
for Senate, you know, bumpersticker that I found in my father's
effects when he, you know,there were so many interesting moments
in that, you know, in that era.
But the, the thing that youwould take away from it is, and that
I did as a growing up was howmuch they were government was there

(20:08):
to do good and how they wereall striving to improve, you know,
so much of life and that.
And in particular, I mean, youthink of it, my father's most famous
moment was, you know,confronting George Wallace in the
famous schoolhouse door.

(20:28):
Here's the funny story about that.
My dad was, you know, fit andsix two, and Wallace was a pipsqueak
and five, seven and a half.
And I said to him, I said,dad, you know, why didn't you just
grab him and, you know, movehim out of the way like that?
And my father said, well, whatyou can't see in the pictures is

(20:51):
that there are about four orfive, six foot, five inch Alabama
state troopers right behind him.
And, you know, I didn't thinkthey'd like me grabbing their governor.
So I, you know, that made somesense, I guess.
Yeah, it was.
The interesting thing aboutgrowing up then was There was so

(21:14):
much passion involved.
Yeah.
In, in that era because wewent from, we went from that into
Vietnam, into the civilrights, you know, movement, into,
into so much stuff.
And it was, it was afascinating time to be young just
to make this all about me again.

(21:35):
Please do it.
Was it when I came to writingHearts War, the.
Which was the novel based onmy, my father's experiences in World
War II, that was where Ireally sort of learned about why
he did the things he did whenhe was in government.
Does that make sense to you?
It makes total sense.

(21:55):
And I was just letting thatsink in.
I was thinking he did so muchduring his career and I thought when
I read this, I'm like, howpowerful that not only did your father
leave a legacy that he did,but, but that you had an opportunity
to form an entire novel abouthim in dedication to him, so to speak,

(22:15):
and then to have that on thesilver screen.
Just a double, triple whammy.
Yes, it was.
Here's a story that you'lllike about this.
The studio flew my father,myself and my then 18, 19 year old
son over to Prague where theywere filming the movie.
They were very, you know,thoughtful about everything they

(22:36):
did.
But at one point early in ourvisit over there, they took my father
and myself and my son into alittle screening room.
And there's Bruce Willis isthere and Colin Farrell is there
and the director is there andthe producers are there and they
said, we want to show you a sequence.
And so I said, great to seeeverything, right?

(23:00):
So they showed us a sequencein a boxcar.
Suddenly there are two P51Mustangs come flying over and they're
just strafing the hell out ofthis boxcar.
And they get out and there'sthis incredibly dramatic scene where
Linus Roche, who's a wonderfulactor, helps organize the men and

(23:22):
they form a POW by the side.
All these American soldierssitting there like that.
And, and so the plane, the twoP51s go zooming over and, you know,
wave their wings and stop shooting.
I mean, it's just, they'rejust blowing the hell out of everything,
which is what Hollywood does.
Sure.
Better than anywhere, right.

(23:43):
You know, and anyway, so theyshow us this sequence and they're
all sort of sitting there andthey say, what did I, what did we
think of it?
Sure.
And I said, I said, well, Ithought that was pretty darn cool,
you know, I mean, you know, Ilike explosions and I like airplanes
and whatnot.

(24:04):
And my father is sitting thereand he says, he says in his Very
quiet voice.
He says, well, he said, hesaid that was very dramatic.
And he said, that's exactlywhat it's like to be in a boxcar
when you suddenly get strafedby your own gods.
There's silence in the room.

(24:26):
And I turned to my father andI said, I said, you had never said
to me that that happened to you.
And he said, yes, in our case,it wasn't Mustangs, it was P38s that
came over.
And it's the same thing.
The guy got out and opened thedoors and we were able to get away
like that.
But, you know, you're in thisboxcar and there are people, guys

(24:46):
dying right and left, rightaround you, whatnot.
So this is, this is yourclassic Hollywood moment.
Yeah.
The producer, the director,the stars, they're all, you know,
they're trying to berespectful of the fact that here
my father had been in thismoment where people died right next
to him.
But on the other hand, theygot it right.

(25:10):
And so, so there was a lot ofvery self congratulatory, you know.
Oh, yeah, this, you know,thumbs up kind of thing and whatnot,
because the old guy said theygot it right.
And I think that it was, itwas interesting for me because I
was looking at him and seeingthe emotion of that moment on his

(25:30):
face in contrast to the factthat, you know, the.
All the stars and the, youknow, the producers and everybody
were overjoyed.
Yeah.
You know, this was a memoryfor him that was very different.
What a dichotomy of emotions.
Yeah, they're.
They're thrilled that they gotit right.
And he's like, yeah, I wishyou could have been there because

(25:54):
it was exactly.
David.
Absolutely.
You know, or actually it wouldhave been.
You know, you're lucky youweren't there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And speaking of lucky you'renot there.
I was reading other.
Also that you're father was pow.
And wasn't he in the camp thatthey based the movie the Great Escape

(26:15):
on that whole.
Yes.
And in fact, in fact, I askedhim about that and I said, did he
think about joining the groupthat was going to go out?
And he said he was given theoption because he was a longtime
prisoner.
Yeah.
And he turned it down.

(26:36):
And because he just, he didn'treally have confidence that they
would, anybody would get away.
You know, he's like everybody,he acted as a lookout.
And as you know, in the GreatEscape, the movie is quite accurate.
All those guys got shot.
Yeah.
You know, the only inaccuratepart of that movie is of course,
the best part is Steve McQueenjumping the fences on the motorcycle,

(26:59):
doing his own stunts.
I knew you were going to say that.
What an actor.
I mean, God, compelling.
Who doesn't love him?
Yeah, exactly.
Golly.
Don't, don't even let yourclassmate Don Winslow get started
about his man Crush on Steve McQueen.

(27:19):
No, Don.
Don and I, we like to havedinner every so often.
And, you know, all I have todo is sort of say Steve McQueen,
and he, he melts into thispuddle of admiration and love.
Right.
Yes.
So, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's.
There'S a couple of guysthroughout history in our age group
that we have that affinity forit probably, you know, Robert Redford,

(27:44):
especially during the all thePresident's Men.
Steve McQueen during GreatEscape or Bullet, for crying out
loud.
Oh, God, yes.
Yeah, don't.
And don't even get us startedabout Bullet, because we'll start
talking about the car and thechase in San Francisco and.
Yeah, second best car chasescene ever.
Yeah.
And what would be the first?

(28:05):
The French Connection.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Down through the Gene Hackman,you know, on the horn like that.
Oh, my God, that was.
I'm convinced.
If you want to.
Ladies, if you want to reallyplease your man, get him a weekend
full of movies that involve atleast a good car chase and a good

(28:27):
gun battle.
And I'm thinking of, like, thecar chase and French Connection or
Bullet, and maybe speaking ofMichael Mann gun battle, like Heat,
for instance.
You can't beat any of those.
No, that sequence where theautomatic weapons and, you know,
on the street in la, I, ofcourse, now assume that that's.

(28:50):
Every day in Los Angeles islike that.
But, you know, from myperspective as a novelist is when
you see sequences like that,you know, how brilliantly conceived
they are.
And it's not merely theaction, but it is that the underlying
psychology of the moment isspot on.

(29:13):
Yeah.
And in a way, I, you know, Ithink that you try to bring those,
those almost cinematicqualities to Prose in, you know,
in a thriller.
And I, I think that thatoftentimes, if you're successful,

(29:33):
that, you know, you create thesame excitement for people as both
a reader or a viewer in a movie.
Yeah.
Does that make some sense to you?
It makes total sense.
And, and, and while you weresaying that, I, I, I was 100% with
you, but I also was sittingthere going, man, think about all
those scenes that werereflective of the time and the cause.

(29:56):
And I, I saw a movie not thatlong ago that I have now seen too
many Times.
And if you haven't seen it andyou want to see a good gun battle
plus a great story that isintricately woven.
It is Den of Thieves.
Yes.
Boy.
Yes.
They're at the end when they're.
They're locked in a trafficjam and they pull out all their.

(30:18):
Again, psych.
Psychologically sound.
Exactly.
Because you know, you'recoming up there and you realize that.
That you know, all hell'sabout to break loose, but everybody
around you is totally innocent.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, and I mean that was.
Yeah, that was a.
That.
I agree.
I mean, I think that movie hadsome other flaws, but that was.

(30:41):
You're right.
Quite right.
That's a terrific, terrific sequence.
Yeah.
And John, I hate to break thisto you, but there's no perfect movie.
Well, maybe there is, but.
And before we.
We're going to take a shortbreak in just a second, but I want
to.
Since we're still on moviesand there's.
There's three movies that you.
That you had your books turnedinto when you covered the Mean Season
and Hearts War.
But there was one right in between.

(31:02):
There, There again, about.
I want to say mid to late 80sjust cause with Sean Connory and
Lawrence Fishburne, which.
Another fabulous movie.
Everybody always mentionsConnery and Fishburne, but it's Ed
Harris.
Oh God.
Who plays that.
The, you know, Blair Sullivan,the serial killer in prison.

(31:23):
His performance slightly overthe top, but unbelievably wonderful.
But you know what?
I don't mind over the top fromEd Harris because that was such a
wicked cool bad guy.
Yes.
You know, and this was.
This was not while I'mthinking of other really good bad
guys, but that.
You're right.
I apologize for not bringinghim up in between Sean and Lawrence,

(31:45):
but I'm like, Ed, he.
You.
He just ate up the scenery ina good way.
The most famous scene where hetalks about how powerful he is was
virtually taken word for wordfrom the book.
Nice.
And it was one of thesequences that I was always most
proud of.
It underscores true evil and abit of crazy, but also a bit of non

(32:10):
crazy too in the world of thrillers.
And this is true for film and writing.
It is about.
There is a kind of obligationto accuracy and not accuracy in the
way that a journalist sees it,but accuracy in the way that almost
that a psychologist sees it.

(32:32):
I keep saying that, but that's.
That's the.
You know, you have to hit theright emotional chords because that's
what makes a shootout work.
A sense of validity.
So that it's real, so it's believable.
So, you know, the stakes andthe premise and the meaning and the

(32:52):
heart behind it all, it all has.
You can't just the random.
Shoot them up, bang, bang.
I don't want to offend anyonewho loves John Wick, and I love me
some John Wick, but, you know,when you.
By the time you got to numberfour, you're just like, jesus.
Really?
No one in all that timemanaged a headshot, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, there's 37 guys comingat him with automatic rifles with

(33:15):
other friends.
Of mine who are writers, who Iwill laugh about.
About automatic weapons.
Yeah.
And if you talk to a militaryguy, you know, they'll talk, you
know, in autumn, withautomatic weapons, you can't really
roll out of the way and thenfire your 9 millimeter at, you know,
pistol and shoot some guy,because basically you're in pieces.

(33:39):
Right.
Because that uzi or that AR15has just, you know, just done everything,
you know?
So, I mean, John, I say this.
To my wife every single time.
And, you know, right in themiddle of one of those scenes that
you just described, I'msitting there going, wait, what?
And she looks over at me like,it's movies.
Let it go.

(33:59):
But I'm like, look.
And he rolls and he spins andhe stands up with a single shot,
and he gets the guy in a.
Anyway, and it's why we go to movies.
All right, look, we're gonnahave to take a short break so that
our sponsor gets to say alittle something for us.
But when we come back withJohn, we're going to be talking about,
of course, Jack's Boys.

(34:20):
So don't move.
We'll be right back.
And we are back with JohnKatzenbach, and we're talking about
Jack's Boys.
Thank you for.
For staying with us, andwelcome back, John.
Thank you.
I hope this is the complimentthat I think it is, because as I
was reading this, and I don't.
I don't generally like tocompare people because that makes

(34:40):
me feel like I'm saying toyou, oh, you remind me of blank.
As though that that person wasfirst and.
And you're not your uniqueself, but as I was.
So I'm gonna.
All that tea up really ruinedit, didn't it?
But Stephen King comes to mind.
I hope that's a compliment.
I actually admire King a lot.

(35:01):
I'm less fond of his horrorbooks, but when he writes Crime and
Punishment, he's very, verytogether on this.
Think of Misery and Thewonderful conceit in Misery is there's

(35:23):
this guy being sort of cut upand tortured by Annie Wilkes, and
he's writing and he realizedit's pretty good.
He thinks, I'm going to keepat it.
This is good.
Which is very much like any writer.
Go ahead, cut off my arm.
But, hey, this is good.

(35:45):
I think that it's funny for me.
I get compared.
You get compared to a lot ofpeople in your career.
And if we were doing this inSpanish and this was in Latin America,
they would be talking aboutGabriel Garcia Marquez and me or

(36:06):
Carlos Fuentes.
If we were doing this inGermany, it would probably be Sebastian
Fitzik, who's a wonderfulwriter, you know.
So, I mean, I.
I like to think that in theworld of thrillers that I try to

(36:27):
stand alone, you know, and,and in, in Jack's Boys, the fact
of the matter is, is when youget right down to it, what is a thriller,
a modern American thriller,you try to find a nightmare that

(36:47):
has a certain commonality.
Right.
And you weave your charactersinto that.
And in Jack's Boys, verysimply, you know, it's.
You think of having teenagersand what are they doing when you're
not watching.
Yeah, and that was the.
That was the sort of impetusfor that book.

(37:09):
And, you know, this will.
This will really sound sickand twisted, which is my normal state.
But I was, when I came up with the.
The idea of the, you know, thegroup of serial killers and then
these teenagers that insultthem, I really literally got up,
walked around the room and wassort of going, yes, yes, yes, that

(37:33):
works, you know, becausethat's what teenagers do and that's
what serial killers do.
Absolutely.
I did mean that as a compliment.
So please don't take it in anyother way.
And so, second of all, it isthoroughly original, so kudos to
that.
And in the last point is, andI was doing some research, it seems

(37:53):
as though, I mean, you're verypopular here, but you mentioned Spanish
and German, for instance, and you're.
You're killing it in thosemarkets overseas.
David, I wish, you know, whenI was growing up, it never occurred
to me that I might want to bea cult hero, you know, in Latin America,

(38:16):
you know, or in parts of Europe.
And there are a number ofother writers who have had, you know,
similar experiences.
And I think it comes as asurprise to all of us.
I think it reflects thatdifferent cultures, certainly Germany,

(38:39):
as opposed to Argentina, asopposed to Chile, as opposed to Mexico,
as opposed to England, youknow, they all have different ways
of looking at books andstories that come out of their own
cultures.
But if you happen to sort offit into what they imagine a book

(39:01):
should be, you explode inthese areas.
And I'm very grateful, frankly.
I mean, it's immense fun, letme say, to go to a, you know, of
either Latin America or Europe and.

(39:24):
And contrast the way peopleread a thriller with the way they
do here in the United States.
And that was.
My next question is like, canyou describe for me the difference
between, say, rolling into aBarnes and Nobles or a poison pen,
for instance, in the States,and doing the same thing in South
America, for instance?

(39:45):
What.
What is.
How.
How do the reactions of theaudience difference?
Let me.
The simplest way to put it isthat in Latin America, for example,
it's all about character.
I think in the United States,people are drawn to plot.
Does that.

(40:06):
And the way here we seem tolike the interaction.
This gets highly technical.
I love it.
Keep going.
The interaction betweencharacters and that overarching plot
that they fit into.
I mean, you know, youmentioned Don Winslow.

(40:27):
He's a great example of howthose characters sort of blend into
a plot that is rich withdetail, 100%.
And I think that that is.
I find that in Latin America, in.
If I go to Europe, theattitudes are a little different.

(40:52):
They always seem to beinterested in the richness of character.
They truly want to know whyeverybody does something.
Let me give you a good exampleof that.
Please do.
And it's a wonderful,wonderful book.
Smila's Sense of Snow.

(41:14):
Okay.
And if you go back to, youknow, how Peter Hoag invented that
story, it's all about who thatperson is.
And I, you know, I'm ramblingon here.
I, you know, like that.
But it.
It's so, like I say, it's very different.

(41:38):
And one of the moreinteresting things is that you get
different questions in every country.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I bet.
Mexico.
The questions in Mexico arenot going to be the same as Argentina,
and they sure as heck aren'tgoing to be the same as Germany.
Oh, my God, I would love to bea fly on the wall to hear the difference,

(42:01):
because, you know, we get inthis little groove in our head.
Oh.
You know, and it's.
It's just kind ofsystematically the same.
But to step into a differentculture and go, let's look at this
story and this whole scenethrough their eyes.
Yeah, it's very.
And I think that also one ofthe things that's extremely interesting

(42:23):
for me as an author is to see,you know, what age groups are attracted
to a story, right.
In Latin America, for example,Jack's Boys, which is already out
down there, number one bestseller.

(42:45):
And it was.
I mean, I can't tell you thenumber of college age men and women
who embrace that story.
Wow.
And then, you know, but onsome of my prior books, you know,
you go to a thing in Germanyand everybody there is, you know,

(43:05):
40 to 60 years old.
I mean, and, you know, there'snot a.
Not a young person in the audience.
I mean, you know, and don'task me to explain why this phenomena
exists.
I have no idea.
John, why does this phenomena exist?
Well, let me answer that, David.

(43:28):
But, you know, it makes sensesince this deals with technology,
dark web, etc.
It makes sense that a youngercrowd may be predisposed toward that.
Plus, I mean, I, for instance, I.
I'm fascinated by the dark web.
So for whatever reason, and somaybe therein lies some of the equations.
Some of it also may be thesensibilities or rather the, the

(43:52):
mindset of these characters inand of themselves.
I mean, you know.
Well, one of the, one of thegreat challenges for me in writing
Jack's Boys was that I had toendow, you know, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie,
Delta, and Easy with different.
Not just different crimepatterns, but different personalities

(44:14):
completely so that they wouldmesh together.
And, you know, when I sort ofcame up with them, I thought, this
is great.
And then I realized I hadreally set myself a profoundly, you
know, difficult writingchallenge, one that I truly, you
know, embraced.
It was, you know, great funfor me ultimately to do.

(44:39):
Well, it was neat, too.
Like, when you're mentioningCharlie, all you got to do is mention
Charlie.
And I know instantly kind ofhis mindset set and his vernacular
and his crime passion.
And then you mentioned Easy,and you, you, you instantly kick
into, like, any, like anyparticular character.
So I always love that.
One of the things I was mostfascinated with, and for some reason

(45:00):
I really loved it, is the, notonly the ongoing social commentary,
but it's the constant film andpopular song references.
I just love that for some reason.
Yeah.
Well, I'm glad.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I really make an effort to putthose in.

(45:20):
And apropos of that, I wasonce giving a speech, I think this
was In Bogota, about 600people in the audience, right?
And at the end, you know, Qand A at the end, I said, wait a
second.
I said, on a show of handshere, you know, when I put in a musical
reference, who listens to that?

(45:42):
And two thirds of the handswent up.
And because you know, what itdoes is.
Or a literary reference, itevokes something for you, a memory.
And so I, you know, I reallylike doing that.

(46:02):
I'm about to redo my websiteand I'm going to put in a whole.
I'm going to go back over mybooks and find and make a playlist
of all of the musicalreferences that I put in.
Please do.
I think that would be so awesome.
And if you want to take it onestep further in that playlist, just
hook it up to Spotify so thatanybody who goes to your website

(46:22):
can sit there and listen tothe entire soundtrack.
And I'll tell you, I want to.
I want to jump on somethingthat you just said.
And this is exactly why I lovethe references.
You'd mention a song, itwouldn't take me out of the story.
That's the beautiful thing.
I wasn't distracted by that.
I just simply, with my otherhalf of my brain, reached in and

(46:44):
remembered the emotion that Iwas feeling during that time in history.
And it was just a great littleway to add a spice to the scene.
David, thank you so much.
Because that is.
That's so reassuring to hearbecause that's precisely why those
things go in there.
You know, you can't stopsomebody from reading because that

(47:06):
defeats the whole point ofwriting in the first place.
But you want to evokesomething inside them.
And when you accomplish that,when you, you know, and I don't ever
pretend to think that it.
Every time, that it'll.
It'll all work, you know,because there's got to be some times.

(47:27):
And you go, you know, who's that?
Right?
You know, But I mean, youknow, it's.
Go ahead.
I was going to say, going backto an earlier comment that we made
about trusting your audience,if, if the.
If I'm a reader and I'm notpicking up that song or I don't remember
that film reference, that's okay.
I'll just let it slide bybecause I'm still so engrossed in

(47:50):
the story, it won't distract me.
However, conversely, as I justsaid, if all of a sudden it brings
up a song, oh, man, that school.
I remember my buds and I wouldsit around, listen to that song,
and it gave you that emotion,but you kept going.
And the same with the films.
Look how we.
You have.
You and I have been talkingfor about 55 minutes, and we've mentioned

(48:11):
three, four, five, six, atleast six or seven films.
And I bet you dollars ofdonuts that in that conversation
you pulled something couldhave been French Connection or Bullet
or whatever.
And you remembered the time.
You remember the feel of that era.
There's going to be some kindof a visceral clue, a cue that hits

(48:33):
you that you go, oh, man.
But you're still in the storyand you're still moving along.
But it's references.
It's just.
David, I think you're 1,000%right on this, because what happens
is, I think that it triggerssomething inside.
And if it's not a referencethat you're familiar with, in other

(48:57):
words, okay, I've never heard St.
Stephen by the Grateful Dead,you know, so you just zoom right
by it, and maybe I'll go backand check it.
But if you, you know, you hearall along the Watchtower by Jimi
Hendrix, you can.
And you remember that wasplaying, you know, in the bar the

(49:18):
night I had to slug that guy.
Yes.
And, you know, it.
It all.
It has a.
It has an impact.
I mean, come on, think aboutit, John.
The things that.
That trigger memories.
It's.
One of the best compliments Ican pay you is the fact that I would.
I can enjoy your story.
I can be distracted from theeveryday that we're all entangled

(49:39):
in, but I can be reminded ofthese songs I haven't thought about
for a while, or a moviereference I haven't thought about.
And it really does make thewhole experience fuller.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I mean, damn it.
That's what we're trying to do.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I was going to say, it's.
Like icing on the cake.

(49:59):
I.
I want to ask you this onething as we start to wrap up, because
I know you.
You got plenty of stuff youneed to be doing when you're writing.
And specifically in the caseof Jack's Boys, is there a message
or a meaning or a feeling youhope your readers take away, or do
you find.
You know what?
I'm just aiming for pure entertainment.
So, you know, if you.
If you take something away, great.
If not, you're just beingentertained for 600 pages.

(50:21):
That's good, too.
Let me answer that difficult question.
The fact.
Let me.
The second part.
Okay.
If readers don't take anythingaway and just enjoy the story and
whatnot, that's fine.
I'm okay with that.
But the fact of the matter is,yes, I want to make some social commentary.

(50:49):
I want to engage people in aworld that has some meaning.
And if they dive into that andthat becomes.
It speaks to them, I'm even happier.
So basically, I'm okay Witheither, I prefer the first, but the

(51:14):
second is definitely.
Okay.
Very, very emotionally,psychologically difficult question.
You should ask that of everydamn author that shows up on your
show.
Consider it done, sir.
All right.
Well, as we start to wrap, Ihave a standard close that I like
to finish with because so manyof my listeners come to me for this.

(51:37):
They love hearing authors likeyou, of your stature, and they love
to hear.
Oh, if.
If I could hear one piece ofwriting advice from John, this is
what they tune in for.
If you've la.
If you've lasted this long inthe show, I know that you're hanging
out to find out this.
I mean, and with your.
What are we at?
15.
This is 15 books now, right.

(51:58):
It's some embarrassinglylarge, large number, but it's not.
It's not like my friend LarryBlock, who's got five zillion, but,
you know.
Right.
So, I mean, Larry's been at ita long time.
Yeah.
We could spend a half hour on Larry.
I love Lawrence Block.
Totally admirable.
The piece of the piece.
Only piece of advice that Ilike to.

(52:19):
I give many pieces of adviceto writers, not the least of which
is, are you capable of sittingby yourself alone in a room for a
year, you know, with thecharacters that you've invented?
But I think the most importantthing that I always say to people
is have confidence in your own story.

(52:41):
Don't think that the wayanyone else would do it is right.
You're going to be happierwith telling whatever story you want
your way and embrace that andstick with it.
You know, whether you sell,you know, zero copies or, you know,
a zillion, you're going to behappier telling the story your own

(53:04):
way.
Of course, the other thing Ialways say is you should always read
the first chapter of DonWinslow's Savages because it's perfect.
Oh, man, I wish it was withinarm reach.
I have every one of his books,in case you didn't know that.
And I am with you.
Boy, that.
That's all one of my all time favorites.

(53:24):
And that first chapter,nothing like it, right?
Nothing like it the first timeI read it.
And people will go look at itnow and think, this is ridiculous.
And then I looked at it andsaid, no, it's not.
Yeah.
David, there are so manywriters that I admire.
Here's the one dirty little,little secret that I'll add to this

(53:45):
conversation.
I very rarely now readanything in my own genre.
Oh, why is that?
I read my friends and the guysI really admire.
But we live in such alitiginous world, I just don't want

(54:05):
something.
I mean, I think there's a lotof really brilliant writing out there,
and I don't want somebodyelse's brilliance to creep into my
dark soul and land on a pageof a book.
Fortunately, I get to read awhole lot of books for this show.
And I get what you're saying,and I understand that, and I appreciate

(54:26):
it.
And then I think I'm going togo back to our mutual pal Don.
And then.
And I heard Don said this tome once about an author that he really
likes, and that author is.
I rearranged my office, so Idon't know where I put that book.
I can see the title.
Russo.
Richard Russo.

(54:46):
Richard Russo.
Thank you.
He goes, when I read Rousseau,I go, what am I doing?
I need to just quit right now.
And I want to say, every timeI read Don Winslow, I go, I can't.
I can't top this, David.
My.
My experience like that waswhen I read Jim Harrison's Legends
of the Fall.
Oh, yeah.
And I thought, I can't do that.

(55:07):
I mean, you know, andHarrison, bless his heart, passed
away.
He was a wonderfully lovely guy.
But I thought to write thatwhole book with a whole novella without
hardly any dialogue or it wasso brilliantly done.
So I almost gave up.

(55:28):
That was when I almost said,wrap it up.
Get a job writing editorialsat a newspaper.
But, John, let me circle backto what piece of writing advice you
just gave me and my listenersis write your own story and be happy
with that and be good with that.
And I think about.
I'm reading a book by RickRubin, and in his book about creativity,

(55:52):
Rick Rubin, the music producer.
I hope to get him on mypodcast one day because he's just
fascinating.
But he said, you want to takethe pressure off of yourself.
You know, you get all wrappedup in querying and all this stuff.
How about just saying, hey,I'm going to write this book from
me.
I'm going to write it so thatI'm happy and I'm pleased.
I'm going to treat it almostlike a journal entry, which is just

(56:15):
for me, and if at the end I'mfinished with it and I feel good
about it and I pass it off tosomebody and they like it, great.
But if not, I'm not going toput that pressure on myself.
And, boy, has that justreleased something in my brain, David.
That's what really.
I obviously subscribe to that.
I just would sort of suggestthat that's just a different kind

(56:38):
of pressure.
Yeah.
You know.
Well, folks, if you want tolearn more, visit Jon Katzenbach.com
and of course, the book isJack's Boys, and it'll come out tomorrow.
John, this has been.
I cannot express to you howthoroughly enjoyable and how honored
I am that you took time tospend it with me.
The.

(56:58):
The honor's mine, David.
And thoroughly, you know, Ithoroughly enjoyed this.
And frankly, you only piercedmy heart with a couple of questions,
you know, so, I mean, youknow, you made me squirm slightly.
You know, I.
You know, I'm good at notindicating that I'm squirming.

(57:21):
I know your secret safe with me.
Listen, just the fact that Igot to.
I mean, you're a legend in somany ways, and just the fact that
you took time to talk to me,I'm very grateful.
And your book is fun.
It's good.
It's.
It's.
It's unnerving.
It's all the things that youwant in a thriller and a mystery
and a suspense.
So I hope you'll come backagain sometime soon, sit down and

(57:43):
write another book.
Yeah, I mean, it's easy peasy.
Only takes a year.
Exactly.
What else have I got to dowith my time, right?
Oh, so good.
Thank you again.
All right, thank you.
Now stand by for show two andour Memorial Day thriller double
shot on the Thriller Zone.
Hey, Matthew.

(58:04):
I can call you Matt Quirk.
Welcome to the Thriller zone.
Thanks for having me.
It's great to be here.
Now, I like the fact that youare such a meticulous attention to
detail guy.
You got the post a movie posta TV poster behind you.
You got the.
The book placed.
I mean, this is not your firstrodeo, is it?

(58:24):
It's a Potemkin village back there.
Because I'm in a corner of thebedroom I've, like, mucked up, and
then I see these authors andthey have these ego walls that you
could die for.
And.
And I just.
Fortunately, I stole a posterfrom the premiere and I still have
an arc left.
I gave the rest away, and the.

(58:44):
The shoe box it's perched uponhasn't fallen over.
So.
Thank you, and I'm glad, butthis is nothing.
This is plaster and lighting.
Yeah, Well, I want you to knowthat the little view that you have
is very beautifully handsomely articulated.
However, if I spun the cameraa little bit over, it is a disaster

(59:08):
zone with piles of books onthe floor and maybe some underwear,
too, but we'll keep that to ourselves.
And I like to joke about the,the Zoom Dicky.
That this is just, it's betterwith a collar shirt that this just
cuts off here and then I'm insome Bermuda shorts or something.
I'm not even believing theBermuda shorts, tell you the truth.
Yeah.

(59:28):
And by the way, Dicky,there's, there's a poll from the
past.
Did you ever own a DickyDickies anymore?
And I, I, I think it's a funnybit in the Zoom era, but I also,
you know, it doesn't sound,you don't want to say, you know,
I, I had my Dicky on the Zoombecause, you know, let's see.
End of your career.
For those of you who do notknow what a Dickie is, and I had

(59:50):
him back in high school.
It's a mock.
It's a turtleneck that has,that's sewn to a little flap, and
the flap will go here, and theother flap is on the back so you
can put it underneath theshirt so you can look like you're
wearing a turtle, turtleneckand a shirt, but you're not super
hot.
And they do sell a Zoom Dicky.
I looked this up, and it'sjust a collared shirt that you can

(01:00:11):
wear under a sweater or if youget your camera right, you can only
wear that part.
And that's my sort of icebreaker.
Zoom joke.
The Zoom Dicky.
The Zoom Dicky.
Yeah.
Now, if I go down the hall afew minutes after the show and I
say, hey, honey, can.
Can you want to see my newZoom Dicky?
She's gonna go, no, no, no, no.
Know.
Yeah, honey, I'm on my own.

(01:00:32):
Zoom call.
Yeah, I'm on my own.
Make sure that it's very clearwhat you're talking about.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, it is a pleasure to meet you.
I did learn very recently thatyou and I are inside.
We're not the same zip code,but we're in the same city per se.
I'm in Encinitas, and you'rein San Diego.

(01:00:53):
Ocean Beach.
Point Loma.
Yeah.
Neighborhood.
Well, in the fifth season,coming up in July, the Thriller Zone
is going to be going onlocation and doing more face to face.
So we somehow missed that,this time with communication faux
pas.
But we will do that in thenext book.
How about that?

(01:01:13):
That sounds fantastic becauseyou're in a gorgeous part of town.
As are you.
It is pretty sweet.
But that's San Diego.
Yeah.
You could fall off a truck andyou're like, oh, it's beautiful here.
It is true.
We're exactly one mile fromthe beach.
I'm actually reading my.
A project that I'm working onyesterday, overlooking Swamis, which

(01:01:37):
is a famous little surfing spot.
And as you can see, because oflittle sun, it's just.
It's perfect every day.
It's pretty silly.
All right, the book is Inside Threat.
We're going to be talkingabout this in great detail.
It is a riveting read.
And, boy, you.
You know, I was gonna.
I was thinking back when we'regetting ready to go on the show,

(01:01:58):
and I'm like, what was thefirst book?
I've only.
This is only the second bookof yours that I read.
The first one was Hour of the Assassin.
And I ran across that, I wantto say, two or three years ago, and
it was Nick Averose, SpecialAgent, Secret Service.
Wow.
That was one of my favoritebooks because.
Cause that thing flew.

(01:02:19):
By the way, what was yoursecret there?
Well, the secret was.
That was.
That was a rewrite.
And it's always funny becausewhen I look back on it, it's.
It seems like one of these,like, meticulously planned, clean,
lean books.
But I had to rewrite the wholething in 90 days with kind of a new
plot, and.

(01:02:41):
And then I came up for error,the end, because it was 90 days straight
and I never worked so hard onanything in my life.
And I came up and I'm like, Iknow I've been in so deep.
I just hope this is any good.
And then said, oh, this is great.
And then, you know, when Ilook back at it now, it just seems
like this nice, like, conceptthat sort of is like.

(01:03:01):
I'll say it again, like, cleanand lean, you know, and.
Right.
And look at the actualgestation of that book.
It was.
It was this crazy process oftearing out the whole pot and putting
in a new one.
So you never really know whatgoes into something and kind of what
comes out at the end or whatwill make a good book.
Because when I was in themiddle of that rewrite, I was like,

(01:03:21):
oh, this is a disaster.
Everything's falling apart.
And then I came up and I said,this is great.
And I was like, okay.
Okay, great.
Yeah.
Isn't it funny, Matt, what.
What we say as writers inthose quiet moments to ourselves
as we're crafting in the.
In the wee, small hours of the morning.
Thank you, Frank Sinatra.
And you're just doing thatwork and you're.

(01:03:45):
You could be a third, a half.
You could be three quartersthe way through and just have that
little voice on your shouldergo, you know, this really kind of
sucks.
Oh, yeah.
And how you have to go, hey,wait a minute, I wasn't talking to
you.
Get away.
I mean, it's, it's achallenge, isn't it?
Yeah.
And I mean, it's a funny jobwhere you just factor in one or two.

(01:04:07):
All is lost moments in each book.
Not in.
Because that's like ascreenwriting term, you know, not
in the action of the book, butin your life as you write the book.
There's going to be a momentwhere you're like, this book doesn't
work right.
You know, and it's funny tosee people like, like Harlan Coban,
who's like so incredible, sosuccessful and you know, you read

(01:04:29):
his interviews and he's like,oh, yeah, I go through hell on each
book.
Or, or Daniel Silva, who's a master.
And I was reading one of hisbooks and he's like, I had to completely
rewrite this book and I didn'tknow I'd get it in time.
So it's, it's a, it's a ride.
I first heard, I heard it recently.
Who was I on with?
Bob Degoni.
And Bob has written a staff ofpaper and I.

(01:04:54):
He made a comment that.
Oh, yeah, Dave, it's, it's,it's nerve wracking.
I, I almost hate everyone.
I'm like, bob, are you kidding me?
He goes, yeah, yeah, everysingle solitary one.
And I thought, what is thatabout us?
Do we not.
Have we not given ourselves permission?
Do we not think we're good enough?
I mean, it's, it's a crazy mindset.

(01:05:17):
Well, it's just, it's reallysubjective, you know, so there's
times where I'll outline abook and then give it to the editor
and they're like, well, itdidn't work, you know, And I'll say,
well, that was the outline.
So it's, it's such anexecution dependent, subjective thing.
And it's such a crazy jobwhere I was very successful with
the first book, Very fortunate.

(01:05:37):
And then I went to write thesecond book and I assumed that they
would say, like, give us anoutline and we'll kind of check in
and make sure everything'smoving along.
Like, you know, I would have ajob almost because they had a lot
invested in the second bookand they're just like, we'll see
you next year with a book.
I hope it's good.
They weren't that like,brusque about it, but that was effectively

(01:05:59):
what was going on.
And I thought, I'm just Gonnago off and hope that in sitting and
playing make believe by myselfin a room for a year, I come up with
something stellar.
So it's, it's, it's a crazy journey.
In each book while we're onthis topic.
And you're going to have greatinsight to this, I can already tell.
So I'm thinking to myself,what if you handed it to your editor?

(01:06:22):
And the editor goes, you know,I don't feel it.
And okay, let me get back to you.
That night, you're havingdinner with a friend who happens
to be another editor, andyou're just, I don't think this would
ever happen.
And you go, here, take a look.
Oh, yeah, you know, I got some time.
And they loved it.
What would that do to your head?

(01:06:42):
Oh, well, that, I mean, thatcan happen because I have like beta
readers and I have anincredible agent who was an editor.
And so when everybody says itstinks in the same way, that's great.
You're like, oh, okay, I'llfix that.
But when you have the reallybrain breaking thing is what?
When two people tell youdifferent things and they're people

(01:07:04):
whom you trust, which I've had happen.
But that's, I mean, that's whyI'm the president, secretary, treasurer,
and board of Rough Draft Inc.
Here.
Like, you know, at the end ofthe day I have to.
That's actually true because Ihave a blown out.
But at the end of the day,like, you have to decide what's good.

(01:07:26):
Do you actually own Rough Draft?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when I do, like, paperworkstuff, I have to be like a check
to myself signed by thepresident myself, seconded by the
treasurer myself.
Hey, and do you ever, do youever walk to your office and knock
on the door and then sit down,said, come in, and then turn back
and go, hey, listen, youshorted me on this check.

(01:07:46):
Yeah, I fire myself periodically.
As you should.
All right, well, before wecover Inside Threat, which we're
going to deal into, I want toknow about and, and, and I want to
do this because I think it'sso cool you have a smash television
series on your hands right now.

(01:08:07):
So for those who maybe havebeen living in a cave and you don't
know what the night Agent is,I want to play, if I may, a trailer
from that.

(01:08:36):
Hello?
This runs deeper than you realize.
And.
Farther than you can imagine.

(01:09:00):
This particular show has everything.
And I love the setup.
Like when the guy's on thephone, you know, here he is just
toiling away.
I'm down here in the basement.
Oh, brother.
And all of a sudden the phone rings.
Well, that doesn't happen.
And let the games begin, bythe way.
So big kudos to landing this gig.

(01:09:21):
This what a what?
Yeah, huge, huge thing.
I want to know, how in thewide world of thrillers did you land
this gig?
Were you just walking alongone day and said, oh, look, here's
the book.
And somebody just comes up andgo, hey, this make a really great
series.
I mean, tell me that processbecause I'm so curious.
Yeah, I mean, I will back up alittle bit to address something you

(01:09:44):
said, which is like that phonecall that was the whole book, just
the hook, you know, because Ihad a friend who had a night watch
job and I imagined him sittingby a phone all night that never rings.
And one day he rings and it'slike crazy.
And.
And then I, you know, I talkedabout it with writer friends and
then I talked about it.
I used it to get a new agent.

(01:10:04):
And.
And then they all said, go.
And I said, great.
And I sat down and I said,well, then what happens?
You know?
So, you know, I just had the hook.
And then I had to find out,like, well, is the government really
going to pay someone to sit bya phone?
And then, you know, and thenyou're just off to the races of writing
a book.
The experience, it was alittle bit like you discussed of,

(01:10:31):
you know, I write the book andthen it goes to a film agent.
And what I found is, you wanta film agent.
The really good ones, theyonly talk when something really substantive
is happening.
So, you know, if somebody'slike, hey, I got Francis Ford Coppola's
cousin to read it, you'relike, oh, oh.

(01:10:52):
And then you, you know, andthen you have Hollywood dreams.
And, you know, if they'relike, or you want to adapt, you know,
what is it they'll say, like,Winnie the Pooh is out of.
Is in public domain.
You want to rent a Winnie thePooh crime thriller, you're like,
great, you know, but.
And then you're running aroundwith Hollywood dreams and it's terrible.
So it's good to have an agentwho just calls you when something

(01:11:14):
of substance happens.
Because the kind of name ofthe game is to not get distracted
by shiny objects and to justsit down and write the books every,
every day and stay hungry.
What you are able to do as awriter is try to get the best representation
you can.
And I was really fortunate tohave Dan Conaway as my agent.

(01:11:34):
And then Dan Conaway, throughhim and Writer's house.
We landed with a fellow namedWill Watkins, who was at icm, which
was really cool to be a partof there.
And they were acquired by caa.
So now he's a caa and he justreally liked the books and I had

(01:11:55):
never met him and he got 200no's on the night agent.
So it was just a thing wherehe loved the books and I had never
had dinner with him, I hadnever met him, I had never charmed
him.
So the other aspect of this,like, from kind of like a craft advice,

(01:12:16):
perspective thing is to justwrite the good book.
And what's really nice, and Italk about this in my author talks
with people who want to getinto publishing stuff is it's, it's
actually, if you can believeit, got a huge meritocratic element
to it because I was just likea laid off junior employee, junior

(01:12:38):
reporter from the Atlanticwhen I got my first book.
And that got this crazy ride.
So it's, it's really cool.
And, and what I like about theway everything in the industry works
through agents is you just go, right?
You don't have to be meetingeverybody and taking people out to
dinner and sending whiskey toeverybody at the end of the year.

(01:12:59):
You know, you just, you justwrite and agents know everybody and
they do that and you can justkind of focus, focus on your story.
So that's basically what happened.
This guy Will, my champion inHollywood, basically.
He just kept taking it out,taking it out.
And then he connected withJamie Vanderbilt, who wrote some

(01:13:20):
great White House movies, somegreat other movies, and he loved
it.
And then so a productioncompany took it on Project X.
They were kind of brand new,but really well established, really
talented people.
And I've had a stuff optionbefore, so I was like, okay, not

(01:13:41):
gonna get my hopes up, you know.
Right.
And, and then they said SeanRyan from the Shield wanted, and
other great shows, wanted totake it on and maybe turn it into
a show.
And then I was like, okay,this seems to be like a big deal,
but there's it, you never, younever get across the finish line.

(01:14:02):
And I've learned kind of thehard way, but it's a good lesson
to never get your hopes up.
Never get too distracted.
And then they said, well, youknow, Netflix picked it up from him.
And I said, okay, okay.
And I was like, reallyexcited, but also just keeping everything
in perspective.
And then when they finallytell you something's going to get
made, you're like, huh?

(01:14:23):
But because, you know, you'relike, it's Like Lucy with the football,
nothing gets made.
So.
And there's always another hurdle.
But.
So I didn't really believe ituntil I started seeing snippets of
video coming out from the setand then went to the set and saw,
you know, Gabe kickingsomeone's ass.
And I'm like, oh, this isgonna be a real thing.

(01:14:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When you have Gabe actuallykicking said ass on a set, you got
a pretty good idea the thingis rolling.
Yeah, yeah.
And he's very good at that.
Yeah, he is quite good.
Good looking guy dynamic.
Here's my, here's the secondpart of that question is how much
involvement do you get on anykind of a daily basis?

(01:15:06):
Now I know there are somewriters who go, they write it, they
hand it off and that's it,nobody wants to see you again.
Or they're like, yeah, hey,just put the writer over there.
Other people, like, I, I gotto see a Jack Carr with that Amazon
project, really kind of get inand put his hand on the terminal
list.
Even got a, a scene in, in the series.
And you know, so how muchinvolvement do you have?

(01:15:28):
That's got to be cool.
Well, it's, I mean, it's up towhat you want to do as a writer,
so.
And I mean, within reason, right?
Because you can say, I want towrite the screenplay and they'll
say no.
So this was, this was kind ofideal because I also recently had
my first child.

(01:15:48):
So I don't want to be like,living in Vancouver for four months
and, you know, going to awriter's room for 12 hours a day
for three months.
Although I, it's so cool and Ilove TV movies and I hope I get to
do all that stuff someday, butit's just like not the time in my
life now.
It's a time for balance.
So it worked out perfectlybecause, because once Shawn Ryan

(01:16:12):
came on, it was such a thrilland a relief because I love Shawn
Ryan's stuff.
I watch his stuff and I marvelat how he can just take these characters
and set them in oppositionbased on kind of their character
design and just keep thetension going in a show for six or
seven years.

(01:16:33):
And I kind of study his stuffand I think that must be so hard
to do.
And once he had, I said, oh,well, great.
I just want to make sure Idon't get in the way of whatever
you're doing here.
Right.
And.
And then we had.
He was so nice.
He sent me the script withthis very gracious email and it was,

(01:16:56):
it was uncanny.
To me, because he's.
He's such a great showrunner.
The idea that he would be,like, concerned about what I think
in any way, I'm like, I don't.
Yeah, just.
I'm just excited you're here.
And then I read it and I loved it.
And.
And then I talked to him andwe talked a little bit about the

(01:17:19):
characters.
And later I read pressinterviews he gave after the show
came out.
And those conversations turnedout to be helpful and turned up in
the show, which was really cool.
But besides those top levelconversations, I didn't really have
a lot to do day to day.
But that was so nice because Ijust trusted him so much because
he's so good that I could sayI'm here to help with anything because,

(01:17:42):
you know, I spent a lot oftime with these characters.
And I'm also happy to help byjust staying out of the way and trusting
you all to do what you do onthis, which I was really excited
to see.
And then, my God, he delivered.
Because, you know, the show,honestly, it's winning the lottery
to get a show made.

(01:18:02):
And then it's like winning thelottery again to have it not flop.
Basically.
I was just hoping it would dookay, you know, and then it turned
into this like, monster thing.
It's the top five all time on Netflix.
And so I said, yeah, it's.
It has more viewers than Bridgerton.

(01:18:22):
It's crazy.
It's crazy.
So I was like, okay, whateverSean Ryan does that gets the entire
world to just love it is amazing.
And it was so cool for mebecause there are scenes from the
book, like, you know, theopening of the book and the opening

(01:18:44):
of the show that are almoststraight from the book.
And it's such a thrill becauseI grew up an 80s baby with TV and
movies to think, like, stuff Iwrite, you can just put it on screen.
And also it's a thrill to seeit all rendered and have these professionals
doing it.
And at the same time, by thetime when I was reading and then

(01:19:06):
when I was watching, I got tothe end of the pilot, it was the
first brand new thing fromSean because half of the show, maybe
a little less, but bigelements of the show are original
to Sean because he hadsomething he was working on and he
kind of combined them.
So it was a really funexperience for me because I came
to those twists the same way areader would or a new viewer.

(01:19:29):
And I got the satisfaction ofseeing it rendered on screen.
And then at the end, I said, what?
Who that?
Who are these People, what'swith this baby?
What the hell is going on here?
So I got to come at it.
Yeah.
Fresh as the audience would.
It was just a really cool experience.
I think the single coolestthing that could possibly happen,

(01:19:50):
like you just said, Matt, isto be sitting there a year, two years
maybe, how many years ago, andyou're writing this scene.
You come up with a scene outof nowhere.
You're hanging out in PointLoma and you have this idea, hey,
what about if La LA phonerings and you write it down, you
get going, and perhaps yearslater, you get to turn flip on the
television and there it is.

(01:20:12):
That, to me, is just about asgood as it gets.
It's.
It's so cool.
I mean, and.
Yeah, it's so cool.
And.
And the other thing, I mean, there's.
There's a few aspects, and itwas especially cool because most
authors, maybe because I havean exceptional experience here, they're

(01:20:34):
like, they're adapting your show.
Are they treating you like garbage?
Are you happy?
You know, I think there's anexpectation among other authors that
it's not gonna go well oryou're not gonna be treated well.
And I'm sure there's somesubstance to that somewhere in the
world.
But I was really fortunatewith this, and everybody was really
nice to me at the premiere.

(01:20:56):
And, you know, my joke islike, oh, it's that old Hollywood
story where everyone overdelivers, things happen really quickly,
and everyone's really nice,you know?
Right.
Yeah.
So it was.
It was great because there'ssome trepidation, I guess, that goes
into being adapted.
And I just had a wonderful experience.
And there's also an aspect.

(01:21:16):
It's good to go see them doit, because even, I mean, regardless
of how the show comes out atthe end, it is such a huge, painstaking
undertaking.
And I was totally in awe ofhow hard they work because there's
a little, like, madness goingon when you're finishing a book where

(01:21:38):
you're just, like, working 12hours and you're completely in this
imaginary world.
And then to see, like, 500people all doing that in the middle
of the night in the tunnelsunder a former insane asylum in Vancouver,
which is where they shot the tunnels.
It's amazing and it's shockinghow hard they work and how meticulous

(01:22:02):
everything has to be in a TV show.
You know, one conversationthat takes five minutes of screen
time takes two hours to shoota fight scene.
The comms tower fight scenetook like 14 hours.
And then when they were done,they went and shot in the tunnels
under the insane asylum.
And I was completely in awe ofhow hard they all work.

(01:22:22):
Yeah, the number of hours in aday, it is pretty insane.
Well, let's get into InsideThreat, because this.
This book right here issomething else.
It drops on 6, 13.
So there's going to be twothings I'm celebrating that day.
Your book and the birthday ofmy late mother.
But it is.

(01:22:43):
Yeah, it is a terrific read.
And you.
I know that this is going tobe talking about all this television
series and so forth.
This is going to be either atelevision series or a movie.
I've just got a very goodfeeling about that.
I'm putting that power intothe universe.
Let's see.
We'll see.

(01:23:03):
Maybe some news will come out.
Sure.
Maybe some news shortly.
Soon.
But nothing I can discuss yet.
No, I'm just, you know, I'mgiving that all up to the big guys
in the.
Where they need to be.
So I want to give you.
If I may.
And then I'm gonna.
We're gonna kind of break itdown into a little elevator pitch.

(01:23:24):
Here's.
Here's what I.
This way I can do my takeawayon the book without giving anything
away.
So, folks, here you go.
This is what the book has.
Questionable good guys.
Enough romance to keep you bothered.
Enough surprises to keep you engaged.
A classic bad couple whoprovide enough drama, while a classic

(01:23:45):
thriller that provides plentyof action and even manages a surprising
and unexpected twist.
Ponder that, my Matthew friend.
That sounds pretty good.
Thank you.
Now, so a lot of times I liketo dig deep because I'm always making
notes and I'm keeping I highlight.

(01:24:07):
I mark the hell out of the books.
And I go, there are certainthings I really like.
Now here's a couple things.
And then I want your elevator pitch.
And I know you have it.
There's a few things I reallylike about it.
Love Eric Hill.
Which.
Who's your main guy?
I dig Amber Cody, too.
I like her attitude.
I like her grit.
I like the way she.
She.
I mean, she is the cl.
She is the best kind of femaleaction Secret Service agent.

(01:24:33):
She's got great backstory anddepth and she's not taking any crap.
And I.
Their chemistry is dynamite.
And I got to tell you something.
Your president, James Kleinand First Lady Sarah I.
Without sounding like I'msaying anything bad about our current
president, I'm like, these arethe kind of cats that I want in office.

(01:24:55):
Oh, good.
Yeah.
You know, cuz, well,presidents are tough.
And I mean, it's hard to dopresidents as real characters.
So it's nice to, you know,give them some depth and you know,
to have the first lady havesome depth and moxie too.
So it, it was.
Well, thank you.
Because this book, it startedwith kind of the movie premise of

(01:25:19):
the setup of the book, whichis, you know, what if the president.
This might be the elevator pitch.
It might be getting.
Yeah, give me the elevator pitch.
Here it is.
Insert here.
You know, what if thepresident gets locked into this huge
emergency doomsday bunker,which is a real place to get away
from a threat, and findshimself locked inside with a threat.

(01:25:41):
And then, you know, they seethe first body turn up and then you're
off to the races.
So that it was a premisedriven book and it was fun to see
the characters kind ofpopulate themselves and become more
complex and stuff.
And I have a great editor,Emily Crump, who really helped with

(01:26:01):
like the character developmentand I'm really grateful for her edits
on that because they, it was,it was nice to, to have somebody
to go back and forth with andto, to round people out.
Yeah.
And there's one thing I reallylove, and I want to mention this
because here in the back ofthe book I've got a highlighted.
You're talking about.
Well, first of all, let'sstart with the front.

(01:26:23):
So I love it when guys do this.
Guys like you.
First of all, I have a nicelittle cheat sheet.
So I know who everybody isbecause it's, it's chock full of
agents.
And at first I, I was, Istarted the book Matt by going, okay,
yeah, he's got a lot of characters.
And I kind of blew over that.
And then I get going, I'mlike, okay, hold on, let me go back
a second.
Let me, let me remind myselfwho's who in the lineup.

(01:26:45):
But then I dig this because Ilike details.
So Raven Rock Mountain complexis an actual complex.
So you get to see, you know,where the blast doors are in the
cavern and the, in the war room.
And I love the description ofthe war room.
So he's the president.
Klein's basically got his.
A miniature Washington WhiteHouse right there, here, underground.
And the different buildings inthe reservoir.

(01:27:06):
But then one step further, youtell me how the main tunnel is and
the buildings and howeverything works.
But then back here, I love this.
He in his.
In Matt's acknowledgments, inreal life, the blast doors swing
rather than retract, which isinteresting because you're like,
well, what does that matter?
But you do.
And the springs under thebuildings aren't actually tall enough

(01:27:28):
to walk through, so I madethem a little higher and could have
a few good site fight scenesin there.
I love that kind of deal.
I guess it's a humble brag,you know, because, you know, Daniel
Silva, everything in this bookis real.
And if it's not real, he'lltell you, like, he'll be like, the
lamppost is on the left handside of the street.

(01:27:48):
And the acknowledgments.
And I think that's fun for meas a reader because when I read one
of these, I'm in it for the story.
But if I know that I'mgetting, like the real stuff and
there's good research andRaven Rock is a real place.
These kind of secret emergencypresidential powers where they can
take over the country, thoseare real.

(01:28:11):
So there's.
There's.
I love being able to read agood story where I feel like, you
know, I've been eatingpopcorn, but then at the end I feel
like I also got my vegetablesa little bit.
Well, we might need to revisethat metaphor a little bit.
But you see where I'm going.
I got my popcorn and mybroccoli all at the same time.
So I'm feeling good.
That actually sounds terrible.

(01:28:34):
Yeah.
When most people are putting MM's in there.
Well, you know, it's good whenguys like David Baldacci and Jack
Carr are singing your praises.
I mean, you know these guyswho are busy writing their own books
and, you know, they only haveso much time in the day, so they're

(01:28:56):
tearing through your books andthey're saying glorious things.
So I love that, but I can'trecall, Matt, who was it?
And perhaps you can help mewith this.
Who said this?
It's the best crime thrillerof the season.
Do you know who said that?
I want to give credit wherecredit is due, baby.
I got a quote from MichaelConnolly, I think, on the Night Agent,

(01:29:17):
where I was just.
I needed, like, a faintingcouch because he said it was, like,
one of the best books to comealong in years.
And he's incredible.
So I really was blown away by that.
I'm gonna go one better foryou, Matt.
Our friend Michael says thestory is impossible to put out of

(01:29:38):
mind, revealing, relevant, andone of the best thrillers to come
along in years.
I mean, when you have Michael Conley.
And the thing is, with him, Ididn't like.
It wasn't something where, youknow, I had mowed his lawn growing
up and I had like a Chit tocall in.

(01:29:59):
I, you know, I emailed himvery graciously to say, like, I love
your books.
And he wrote back, he said,send me one.
And then that came through andthen I passed out because I was so,
I was so blown away.
You bring up a superb pointand I wonder if you'll give me just
a second to talk about it.
I was at Thriller Fest 2019 inNew York City and I was sitting in

(01:30:22):
at the feet of probablysomebody like Harlan Coburn, because
I remember I had such a funhoot talking to him.
And right when you, you thinkas a novice writer, oh my God, I
wish I could get a blurb fromsuch and such someone on stage.
Perhaps Harlan said, hey guys,if you, if you got a favorite author,

(01:30:43):
just ask them sometimes.
You never know if they'll sayyes or not, but just ask them all
like new to say no.
Right?
Yeah.
And you know, I mean, what'sfunny about authors is it's so weird
because, you know, when you goto a law firm, like, I don't know,
Wilmer Hale or something,you're not seeing Wilmer and Hale.

(01:31:05):
No, you know, you're seeingsome guy down here.
But like, all these authors,with very rare exceptions, are one
man, one woman bands.
And also because I didn't knowauthors growing up, so I always thought
it was weird and they would belike on a pedestal or a different
thing.
But except for the very tippytop people, most of us are just like

(01:31:27):
excited to hear from you.
Yeah.
And even the tippy top peoplein thriller, mystery, suspense are
total sweethearts.
And there's this wonderfulculture of paying it forward.
So it's, it's alwaysincredible what a good community
it is.
All right, two things.
First of all, I do agree, Ilove that.

(01:31:48):
And I have found the writingcommunity to be incredibly loving
and open armed.
Secondly, did you really usethe phrase tippy toppy?
Did I say tippy toppy?
Yeah, you said tippy toppy.
Yeah, you said at the tippytopping top.
Tippy top, tippy top.
Okay, tippy but still tippy top.

(01:32:08):
Not tip top, not very top, notthe pinnacle.
You went tip top.
I spent a lot of time with my15 month old, so I was gonna say.
Yeah, you're, you're, this is,this is, I'm code switching a little
bit here.
So it could be much worse.
Okay.
Because I was gonna say nowshe was born last February, if I
recall.
And you, you, you, you calledher your new writing partner.

(01:32:31):
So I'm like, okay, that'sthat's where tippy top came from.
Because you're tippy.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Sorry to belabor that.
Had to have some fun with it.
She was in the carrier becauseshe's a good napper, but she would
only nap on me.
So when I was polishing insideThreat, I do baby stuff all morning.
And then because I ended uphaving to work during paternity league

(01:32:54):
a little bit and then I wouldput her in the like Baby Bjorn thing
and then she would sleep and Iwould spend two hours at the stand
up desk polishing.
And then I was just likecompletely exhausted because I had
this gorgeous little lump, youknow, in the carrier while I was
writing for two hours.
So it was really sweet.
I'm a big fan of.
I'm a big fan of naps.

(01:33:15):
Afternoon naps.
Yeah.
So next I'm wondering if Icould just get in that little Bjorn
and come over and visit youand just grab a little nap.
Sounds so cozy.
You might outweigh me.
It would be.
It would probably.
Can you see that?
Yeah.
I did not see it coming.
I didn't think this, thispodcast was going that way, but it's
fun.

(01:33:36):
Yeah.
It'd be like that tandemparachute thing.
That's what it looks like whenthey're in the front pacing carrier.
Yeah.
I want embarrassment.
Let's.
I'll stop there.
All right.
There are some people who sayhigher education isn't important.
Others say it's mandatory.
I'm probably one of those guysthat has mixed feelings.
I happen to have a slew of degrees.

(01:33:58):
But I'm going to tell you something.
Reading Inside 3 threat,you're going to see how Matthew's
degree in history andliterature from Harvard no less,
really has paid off.
Because when you're readingthis, you know, this is not your
average bear.
And I'm not saying that in anykind of hoodie tooty f kind of way.
I'm just saying as you readit, you know, this guy is educated

(01:34:21):
and it's in it show.
So that's a compliment.
And all the.
It also begs a two partquestion I'm famous for.
Number one, did you have anyidea that you'd be able to craft
a career as successful asyou've been able to do, which could
be a yes or no.
And how far back does yourwriting passion go?

(01:34:45):
So, no, I was completely terrified.
They kind of.
They're related.
So I got into Harvard becauseI had done a bunch of like physics
and chemistry.
Chemistry research and wasgood at math and I was a chemistry
and Physics major.

(01:35:06):
And that was a proven thingthat I was really good at.
And when you go from like apublic school in New Jersey to Harvard
with one thing, you're like, Ishould stick with this thing.
But I loved writing.
And it was around, I think,the summer after my freshman year,

(01:35:28):
all of my jobs fell throughand I was just doing like, I don't
know, doing whatever for moneyand like real whatever New Jersey
stuff.
And I was back in my parentshouse and I started writing.
And I would write like in themiddle of the night, night.
And then my dad would comedown for breakfast and I'd be finishing

(01:35:49):
writing.
I would write on the deck in alittle lawn chair with my laptop
because I like.
I still like writing at night.
My schedule, I can't really do it.
You just.
It's all possibility andnobody's watching.
And that's when I first gotthe bug.
But I would.
I would be like clocking outof the night shift and my dad would
come down and be like, whatthe hell is this kid doing?
He's on the deck with a lawnchair, right?

(01:36:10):
And that's when I caught thewriting bug and I also caught kind
of the literature bug.
But I.
I had always loved English and literature.
And the fun story is that mymom went back to school to finish
her undergrad degree when Iwas in late elementary, early middle
school.
And then she went straightthrough to get her master's.

(01:36:32):
So my house growing up, my dadwould read like five throwers a week.
And then my mom would havelike William Butler Yeats and Hilda
Doolittle and Emily Dickinson,and she was getting her masters.
So she would.
There was like a standardthing in my house with my mom would
go in with a stack of booksand lock the door and you'd hear
the IBM going.

(01:36:53):
Because she was writing aliterary study and it was like the
coolest thing on earth.
And she come out and they were.
So there was Joseph Kahn,Conrad, and all these translations
of the Iliad.
So it was just a great stewof, you know, every kind of good
story.
And I grew up on that stuff.
And also Michael Crichton.
I have a letter I wrote toMichael Crichton when I was 9 because

(01:37:14):
I just like loved Jurassic Park.
So I had this nice stew and Ialways had this literary stuff.
And it was.
I remember in college when Iwanted to switch to English because
one professor took a paper Ihad written in sort of a Gen Ed kind
of course and said, this is great.
And he read it out to theclass and I was like, oh my God.

(01:37:36):
But I was terrified that Iwould never make a living and I switched
and then I ended up getting ajob in journalism.
And through that sort offigured out that the old thrower
things that I had read growingup, including like just Conrad, like
the, you know, the niceliterary bone stuff were what I wanted

(01:38:00):
to write.
And, and then in working atthe Atlantic in D.C.
i got sort of the materialthat, that fired my imagination because
in college they have you writevery introspective literary stuff
and I stink at that.
So my first, my first goes atfirst fiction were not great because

(01:38:23):
I was a, you know, 19 year old kid.
I thought I had come fromlike, because I went to public school.
I thought I was like, youknow, had come from the mean streets
because Harvard was such a big distinction.
But I mean it wasn't reallythat big a job and, and I had nothing
really to say in like aliterary introspection, New Yorker
short story way.
So it didn't suit me.

(01:38:46):
And I was just fortunate thatI had the habit, the writing habit.
And then I was at the Atlanticso I got into the espionage, politics,
foreign affairs stuff.
And then it took me forever tofigure out that actually thrillers
were the book I would write.
So that's kind of how it allcame together.
And then I got laid off fromthe Atlantic and then heard back

(01:39:08):
on the first thing I'd eversent out professionally three days
after I got my notice and avery big deal agent said you should
keep going.
So I kept going.
And it was just two years ofliving off of like meager savings,
about to get married, tellingmy father in law, like, oh don't
worry, this novel will work out.
And then the novel, theWedding was kind of my deadline for

(01:39:30):
this writing project, right?
And then a month before thewedding we sold the 500 to Little
Brown and the film rights to Fox.
So it's, it's like a whiteknuckle ride.
And I'm not one of thesepeople who's like, well, a life in
the arts and I'm sureeverything will work out.
Like I'm a practical guy.

(01:39:50):
So you know, ending up with acareer in the arts is not my temperament.
And the sort of roller coasterof it is still a little harrowing.
That is an amazing storybecause you wouldn't expect, expect
that, you know, from a scienceguy, chemistry to the creative world

(01:40:10):
and, and I think that probablyprepared you beautifully to go well,
you know, I'm going to givethis a shot but I always have kind
of this to fall back on, so to speak.
I'm not saying classically youhad a plan B, but you got the smarts
to know.
Well, I got a Harvard degree.
There are other things I cando if this just doesn't work.

(01:40:31):
Although at a certain point,you get old enough that, like, you
know, it's too late.
I guess it's never too late, but.
It'S never too late.
No, no, no, no.
All right.
As we begin to close, there'sone thing I always do, and I know
you're an avid fan of the showand you watch it religiously, so
you would know this.
I end each show asking myguest their best piece of writing

(01:40:52):
advice.
Because I have so manylisteners and viewers, both YouTube
and podcasts, that probably97.543 percentage, if you wanted
to be analytical about it,that begs to hear that best advice.
So what is Matt Quirk's bestpiece of writing advice?

(01:41:14):
Writing advice is to get awayfrom the computer because it's, you
know, so intimidating to sitdown and try to write your story.
So I will, when I'm figuringout the whole plot of a book, because
I'm an outlier, I'll just kindof wander around, look like a crazy

(01:41:35):
person, or walk at the cliffshere and let it all fill in.
And then once I figure it out,then I go write it down.
And then at the micro scale,when I'm writing a scene, I just
kind of wander around until Ipicture what's going to happen in
that scene and I make somevoice notes and I sit down at the

(01:41:56):
computer and then I write itdown because I just get caught up
moving words around.
And then more generally, thisis two pieces of writing advice is
to do the, you know, the.
The shitty first draft, theycall it, right?
Because there's so much kindof stage fright and perfectionism.

(01:42:18):
And the whole thing of writingis a head game.
So to just give yourselfabsolute permission to write it out
as rough as you want and thenknow you can fix it later.
And so if you combine knowing,like, having really spent time making
sure the whole thing willwork, with taking the pressure off

(01:42:39):
yourself by letting yourselfwrite a rough draft of it, then you
have a super rough butprobably like, structurally sound
draft.
And then it's just revisionand you can relax a little bit because
you have the pages.
I love that, Matt.
And I'll tell you why I like it.
You do something that I dosimilarly, and I don't like it because

(01:43:01):
it's similar to what I do.
Excuse me, but it's that, andI think it's so.
I think you.
You started out perfectly with it.
Sometimes when you start withthat blank page, it's intimidating.
You're like, oh, where am Igoing to start?
And that little cursor is justblinking at you.
If you're on a computer and I do.
I'm with you.
If I have a random idea, myfavorite thing in the world is to

(01:43:21):
walk, preferably along thebeach and just walk.
The.
The exercise of walking justfrees you up.
Or driving.
That's my second favoritething to do, is just.
You just drive.
Because this is taking care ofone side of your body, brain.
You can just kind of toil onthe other side.
And then.
And here's the funny thing,people will say, oh, I got to write
it down right away.
How many times.

(01:43:42):
This is somewhat rhetorical,sometimes partly inquisitive, because
if I have a great idea or youhave a great idea, I bet you, you
don't forget that idea.
You're like, oh, oh, that's interesting.
It sticks in your brain.
It's not going anywhere.
Yeah, Stephen King has somegood stuff on this.
Yeah.
But don't you agree?

(01:44:02):
Because, like, if I'll have anidea, it'll.
I can.
Oh, okay.
And it just locks.
Now, I can't tell you what Ihad for lunch yesterday, but I can
tell you what that idea was 12years ago.
So that walking and thatintrospection just allows you to
kind of work out the kink.
So then when you sit down, youfeel the confidence is kind of built
up for you, whether you'regoing to write it longhand or type

(01:44:24):
it.
So I.
I love working that, Matt.
And.
And what I.
What I had, which was a realproblem for me, coming from math
and physics and chemistry, wasthe idea that there was a right answer.
Right.
And that you could do thingsschematically, formulaically.
So in my first English papers,in my first books, I thought there
was a process and a solution.

(01:44:44):
And I now know that theprocess is like, wander along and
let the folds in your brain dotheir bizarre, sedimentary.
Whatever they do to ideas, andthen at the end, you'll have the
right answer.
I was not ready for that.
And so I spent a lot of yearskind of struggling, thinking I could

(01:45:06):
just move words around on a page.
So I hear you that, like, theweird misto things that your brain
does when you're just walkingor just letting an idea gestate,
that's how it works, andthat's all there is to it.
You just need time and youneed focus, which is really hard

(01:45:26):
for people to find.
And when you're walking,you're not, like, trying to perfect
it on a computer.
And you're not, you know,hopefully not dicking around on your
phone.
Yeah, hopefully not dickingaround on your phone.
Yeah.
Just say no to dicking on the phone.
The.
What I especially like aboutthat is that you and you.

(01:45:48):
And you said this.
You're giving yourself permission.
I don't want to belabor thepoint, but you're giving yourself
permission to just, oh, thatdidn't work.
Oh, that didn't work.
Oh, I can see why that doesn't work.
And I think that's a lot of it.
Just give yourself permissionto eff it up a little bit.
Yeah.
And also, like, if you'reletting things.
If you're spending a lot oftime just thinking about things,
you don't have 2,000 words asyou were trying out whether this

(01:46:13):
guy should have, you know,been attacked by a bear when he was
young or whatever.
Right.
And so it's easier to.
Everything's faster becauseyou're not attached to these things
you've already written andinvested in.
Right.
And sometimes you'll write, go ahead.
Well, and the rough draft isthe same way, because you'll go back

(01:46:34):
and you'll reread the wholething, and you'd be like, this character
doesn't work.
And if.
Yeah, and this is just for me.
If I had written thatcharacter and been, like, weeping
at the beauty of all theselines I wrote with that character,
and.
And then all the polishing andmy turn of phrase when I.
And then I have to go backlater and just cut that character.
I am not.
I'm not psychologically oremotionally capable of that.

(01:46:57):
But if it's like, hey, I threwthat up in an afternoon and it was
fine.
And reading it now, I realize,like, the hero doesn't need two people
they're trying to save, then Ican get rid of it.
So that's.
You know, you kind of.
It has advantages coming andgoing, I should say.
Yeah, yeah.
Hold for passing plane.

(01:47:18):
That's the point.
Yeah.
The.
I just.
I'm just picturing you, man.
I'm just picturing you weepingover the keyboard.
I know.
I get emotional.
I get emotional, and then.
And sometimes it's for great stuff.
And the worst thing is whenyou write something like that and
then you give it to your agentor editor, and they're like, oh,

(01:47:39):
that was flat.
That was really flat.
And you're like, I was in tears.
And it's just because you getand this is why it's so subjective
and sometimes things don't work.
You're so close to it.
You're literally sharingsubjectivity with these characters
or in their mind that youyou've completely lost perspective.
Well, this has been a greattime, Matt.

(01:48:01):
I'm looking at the clock.
I'm running a little bit late.
We're in I got a littlepressure situation.
So let's go ahead and ring off here.
But I want to say, folks, ifyou want to learn more, visit Matthew
Quirk.com youm'll see it hereon the screen.
Follow him on Twitter as I doat M.
Quirk.
And he's on both Instagram andFacebook at the same place called
Matthew Quirk.
Quirk author.

(01:48:22):
Matt, thanks so much for showing.
Thank you.
Yeah, this was a bl.

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