Double the Thrills: Goldberg Brothers Take Over the Thriller Zone!

On today's 239th episode of The Thriller Zone, host Dave Temple dives into the thrilling world of writing with two of the brightest stars in the thriller genre, Lee & Tod Goldberg.

We kick things off with a hearty laugh as they chat about their writing journeys, the joy of storytelling, and a sprinkle of hilarious personal anecdotes—who knew that a chat about books could feel like a stand-up comedy routine?

The main highlight of the episode is the exciting news about their upcoming projects, including Lee’s Eve Ronin series being developed for television plus Tod’s latest book making waves in the literary community.

We also explore the importance of conflict in storytelling and how each scene should reveal character or drive the plot, all while keeping it light and fun.

So grab your favorite drink, kick back, and join us for an hour of laughter, insights, and a touch of sibling rivalry that keeps the conversation lively!

Takeaways:

• Lee and Tod Goldberg, two stars of the thriller world, join us for an entertaining chat.
• Writing is a journey, and both Goldbergs share their experiences and successes in the industry.
• We learn about the importance of conflict and character motivation in writing compelling stories.
• The conversation touches on how different approaches to writing can lead to unique storytelling styles.

Keywords: thriller podcast, Lee Goldberg interview, Tod Goldberg podcast, writing advice for authors, crime fiction tips, thriller writing techniques, character development in thrillers, dialogue writing in fiction, screenwriting tips, TV series adaptations, Amazon Publishing authors, mystery genre insights, creative writing advice, storytelling techniques, suspense building in novels, humor in writing, author interviews, publishing industry insights, thriller book recommendations, writing community support

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to the Thriller Zone.
I'm your host, David Temple.
Welcome to September.
When you, when you get to seethis or hear this show, I will be
vacationing with my lovelywife out of the country.

(00:22):
So, yeah, as you'll mention,as you'll hear about in September,
we're taking a much needed break.
But today's show, it's a.
It's a doozy.
It's a double doozy.
We have for you two of thebrightest shining stars in the Thriller
world.
Todd and Lee Goldberg.

(00:43):
Or I probably should say Leeand Todd Goldberg.
They're always fighting fortop billing.
Anyway, without any furtherado, how about you and I get together
and Enjoy an hour plus of theGoldberg's right here on the Thriller
Zone.
Mr. Goldberg, hello.
So good to see you.
Good to see you too.

(01:04):
And too long.
Yes.
You've gotten younger andbetter looking.
I've gotten older and fatter,which my brother will confirm, I'm
sure.
By the way, I saw a photographof you and I want to save all the
juice for the squeeze orwhatever the fuck that line is.
Doing an unboxing.
You look like you've lost some weight.

(01:25):
You're looking really pretty dapper.
Well, thank you.
Into it.
It's the affair I've been having.
You know, the 22 year oldstripper I've been dating demands
so much more of me than mywife does.
She, she.
My wife will settle for thefat old Lee, but the, the young women
now want so much.
I just don't have the energy.
My back is sore.

(01:45):
Oh, nicely done.
Nicely plates her.
And the Viagra has createdsome embarrassing situations socially.
Yeah, because it, it's longerlasting than you expected.
Yes, yes, I. I go to Ralph'sand people are screaming.
Oh.
So how long has it been sincewe've spoken?
I think about a year.
Yeah.
God, can you believe that?

(02:05):
That's ridiculous.
Your brother is.
Well, you're early, everybody.
I'm always early.
Yeah, I would rather be 10minutes early than 10 seconds late.
That's a big conflict in my marriage.
I think my dad used to say,son, if you're not 15 minutes early,
you're automatically late.
Something like that.
Yeah.
I believe that.
I'm one of these people wholike, I want to be at the airport

(02:26):
early, so if anything goeswrong, I can take care of it.
And I don't like being rushed.
No.
So like if I have meetings inla, if I get there early, that's
okay, you know, I'll listen toa book on audio or I'll do something
else.
But I just hate the rush ofbeing late.
Yeah.
And I'm one of those weirdguys, too, who when I have a meeting,
I have a spare shirt in my carjust in case I spill Diet Coke all

(02:48):
over myself or I'm sweatinglike crazy because I had a bad situation
years ago where I spilled aDiet Coke on myself on the way to
a meeting and I.
And I had to stop at a BananaRepublic just to buy a shirt real
quick before going into the meeting.
I looked terrible.
That is so smart.
So smart.
My hair looks weird, though.
Oh, well, did you just get outof the shower?

(03:09):
No, no, no.
Did you just get out of bedwith the stripper?
That's what it is.
That's what it is.
Do I have any tassels in my hair?
Yeah, you do have a little sparkle.
Yeah.
Oh, my God, what a summer thishas been.
It's August the first week.
And let me remind Todd thathe's supposed to be online.

(03:31):
Todd waiting.
That's a pretty.
Is that.
That's pretty fast.
Typing with one finger.
One finger.
Dude, we have so much goodnews to share.
You especially.
I don't want to.
I do have good news to share.
I don't want to give out allthe candy in the lobby.
I have.
I have news I can't share.
That's good, too.
So you, like, last time wetalked, you said, oh, I can't tell

(03:54):
you about this, but I can, oh,no, I can't tell you about that.
You know, the problem is nowthese studios and networks have you
sign non disclosure agreementswhere you basically can't reveal
anything until they tell youyou can't.
So I have to sit on some stuff.
It's frustrating.
So that bothers you?
Yes.
Todd's finally getting here.

(04:15):
Okay.
I do notice that if I've got abig release coming and I want it
to be secret so that all theoomph is at the right place, I would
ask, hey, by the way, don'tsay anything about this yet, but
have you found that thegeneral rule is you can't actually
quite fully trust people?

(04:35):
You want to.
The best intentions are there,but sometimes you're at a cocktail
party, they're not thinkingand they just go, well, we're going
to talk about your stuff.
I'm.
We're rolling.
This show has already started.
You.
When you can start me off witha belly laugh.
And we're only.
We're less than five minutes in.
High five.

(04:56):
That's good.
Bow to you and you hear me.
All right.
Even though my fancymicrophone is not in front of my
face, it's off to the side here.
You know, actually, I can hearyou pretty good.
Oh, and there's Todd, thedueling hands.
Hello, gentlemen.
Hello.
You've got some, like, J.J.abrams lens flash up at the top here
from a light.

(05:17):
You have like, a glare, likean Apple Store kind of glare there.
Oh, I do?
Yeah.
There's some light at the topof your head that's actually hitting
your face.
That's God saying, that's godly.
Todd, I've got you.
That's weird.
Oh, I see it.
Yeah.
No one move.
Thank God Todd's wearing pants today.
Unlike Jeffrey Toobin.
Oh, it's still there.

(05:38):
Oh, yeah.
It's the sun.
I'll just look at enlightened.
Yeah, doesn't bother me.
Yeah, it's actually.
It's coming from outside.
Interesting.
Okay, well, they'll just thinkit's cinematic.
Lens flare.
Lens flare.
I look good.
You do look good.
I look like I've beenbenighted by celestial beings.

(06:01):
But seeing you makes merealize, Todd, I've got to get a
beard to hide my old man neck.
You know, I got news.
Really?
Ain't gonna hide it.
I'm sorry?
I said, ain't gonna hide it.
It won't.
No, I mean, it will destroy it.
It'll distract.
Well, that'll work.

(06:22):
That'll work.
But, Lee.
So this is the interestingthing, David, is that I. I don't
know if Lee can grow a beard.
I can grow a beard.
Have I ever sent you the photoof me with a beard?
One time, when Valerie went upto France, I decided to grow a beard
while she was away.
And this was 10 years ago.
Yeah, it was so gray.
I mean, I aged 30 years withthat beard.

(06:44):
So I shaved it off.
Madison found.
My daughter found it frightening.
I'll send you photos.
I've got him somewhere.
See, the thing is like this.
I shaved this morning.
Yeah.
That's how virile I am.
Is my facial hair just greengrows immediately.
That is so funny.
And since we're comparing,like, I can grow the goatee, but

(07:05):
this is just like baby skin.
Nothing grows here.
It's so weird.
Yeah, yeah.
The important thing, Lee, andthis is something our wives has taught
us, is that if you putsomething on top of the fat, the
fat is hidden a little bit,but it still exists.
It just looks fashionable.
I have found that wearing ablack shirt, it's a lot.

(07:28):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to highlight my skin tone.
That's the difference.
Lee.
Do me a favor and tilt yourcamera down just a skosh so I.
Don'T have a. I'm glad to tiltit down just a skosh.
Yeah, you can even.
You can give me another skoshso I can.
Yeah, a little skosh.
A double skosh.
Yeah.
There you go.
There we go.
We still get the Lee Goldbergdirector's chair in the shot.

(07:50):
Oh, yeah.
I can move over.
You get the bathroom in there, too.
And is that my new book overmy shoulder?
Oh, my gosh.
How did it get there?
I should.
I should turn mine a littlebit so we have a heroine for the
ages revealed there.
Yeah.
Oh, you got one.
Look at that.
Oh, look at this.
I've got dangling earrings.
They're called a galley.

(08:12):
I haven't gotten a galley.
I had to read mine digitally.
Of Todd's.
Yeah.
I thought Open All Night waspowerful fiction.
This.
Open.
I can never remember the titleof Todd's book, so I just.
Actually, I can now, but now Ido it just for laughs.
All right.
I told Todd the title of mynew book is Open All Night.

(08:33):
Yeah.
And then I had a mom joke forhim, but then I realized we have
the same mom.
Your mom's open.
Oh, wait, that's her.
That's my mom.
Yeah.
Oh.
Oh, that didn't quite work.
So, guys, welcome back to theThriller Zone.
It's been way too long.
It has.
My life has been thrillersoutside of the Thriller Zone.
Well, I come here for thrills.

(08:56):
Every morning I wake up and Ithink, will there be an email inviting
me to the Thriller Zone?
And then it's like, I have a bagel.
I have some yogurt.
And the day just sort ofprogresses without any zones or any
thrills.
But here we are.
Look, once you've got twoGoldbergs together, God knows the
thrills that might happen from this.
It's a double dose of Thrillage.

(09:18):
Thrillage.
Thrillage.
That's how people describe my weight.
It's thrillage.
In a world, leader's going tohave a character almost immediately
named Thrillage.
Nick.
Thrillage P.I.
that's my new series.
It'll be out in six months.
He's already.

(09:39):
Todd and I had to make dibs onsome stuff.
Like he and I both actuallyTodd and I and Thief Sutton walked
by a bar called PoorDecisions, and.
And all three of us raced tobe the first one to get that into
print.
True.
I think FIF beat us by puttingit on television before we could
put it into.
I've had this bar PoorDecisions in two Books.

(09:59):
He's had it in a TV show.
Lee's had it in two books.
It's the greatest name for adive bar anywhere.
Decisions.
It really is.
Yeah.
I've already got one chapterwritten of Nick's frillage, Todd.
So you're way behind.
While you were talking, Istarted writing.
The Joyce Carol Oates of thrillers.
Legal on the next adventure of.

(10:20):
What was his first name?
Nick Thrillage.
Nick Thrillage.
I prefer Dane Thrillage.
You know Dane Thrillage?
How about Dirk?
Dirk Thrillage.
Dirk Thrillage.
Yeah.
Dirk Tussler's back.
Yeah, with a vengeance.
And his new character is Dirk Thrillage.
He also finds the Titanic and blows.
The let's pick her up Now.

(10:43):
He doesn't just find it, heblasts it.
Oh, well, my language, Todd,you can't hear.
Did you notice after readingOpen All Night that you were saying
fuck after every third word?
I mean, after reading thatbook, I was the foulest mouth person
in Calabasas.
How are you today?
I'm fucking fine.
Except the cashier at Ralph's.

(11:04):
He's the only man who writesmurders where everyone speaks politely.
May I kill you, please?
Yeah.
Pardon me while I insert aknife in your ribcage.
Only when I'm writing Canadian shows.
Oh, gosh, here comes a Mountie.
Yes, sorry, new to you now.
We'll let you do you.

(11:25):
We'll sit quietly while youthink of a question.
No.
Talk amongst yourselves.
Forget about it.
Oh, we're getting in the way.
He know Todd.
He's supposed to be.
He's supposed to beinterviewing us.
I know.
Nick Thrillage needs to bequiet now so Dave Temple can interview
us.
You know what?
Nick Thrillage is going toshow up.
I know it.
Wait, what's his sidekick's name?

(11:46):
Ernie runs.
10 speed and thrillage.
Oh, my God, there's a flash.
Are you Thrillage or just gladto see me?
Todd, you missed the Viagrajoke that opened the show.
God.
It wasn't a joke.
You.
You missed the tawdry.
Look, Dave, here's what I cantell you.

(12:07):
Having edited my brother's sexscenes in our book.
How many brothers get to say that?
Yeah, no doubt hearing himtalk about Viagra would be a relief
to me.
I'm sure we'll get to his pornographic.
I have had submission.
This is a terrible thing to say.
I've had an inordinate impacton Todd's love life and how he views

(12:28):
women.
And so here we go.
The first sex scene he everread was one I wrote in a book.
Well, that's his wife has beenpaying the price for decades.
Or asking for change.
My God.
Now, how did that come about?
I got to know that.
Well, you can ask us in the podcast.
Todd will tell the story.
He's very funny.
What do you mean?
As we're.
We're.
We're on the air.

(12:48):
Hi, I'm Lee Goldberg.
So when I was.
When I was, I think Eleven,Lee's debut novel, 357 Vigilante
came out.
And in that book, Lee has asex scene.
Well, we'll use sex, you know,with quotes around it where a man
slathers rocky road ice creamon a woman's genitalia.

(13:11):
Now, well, not just her genitalia.
It was all over the place.
Yeah.
At the time, at 11, even thenI was like, I don't know how the
nuts and the dairy are gonnawork here.
And now as a 54 year old man,I think Lee had never had sex before.
Right.
And here's the funny storyabout that.
And I think you've heard thisstory before, David.

(13:33):
But I wrote this book when Iwas in college.
357 Vigilantes by Ian Ludlow.
So I'd be on the shelf next toRobert Ludlow, and I had delusions
of being a serious novelist.
So I wanted to write aliterary men's action adventure story.
So my guy was a vigilante, andafter shooting all these people all

(13:54):
day, he couldn't get it up atnight because every time he started
to have sex, you know, he'dsee all the people he blew apart.
You know, that'd be that.
Like that scene in Munich whenthe guy's having sex and seeing the
terrorists.
Okay, so I think that's aHallmark movie.
You're confusing.
But.
So I got this note from mypublisher saying you can't have a

(14:15):
men's action adventure novelwhere the hero can't get it up.
He has to be having lots ofgreat sex.
So I was so mad that I wrotethese sex scenes that defied gravity
that were anatomically impossible.
You know, he'd glance at awoman and she'd faint from multiple
orgasms.
I just had all this stuff.
And Tom was right.
I hadn't had sex.

(14:36):
I was just like, this is.
Actually, I had, but I didn'thave the experience of my.
He hadn't made love, Dave.
It hadn't involved another person.
Go ahead.
That's why my partner wasalways satisfied.
So his editor said, could youmake the masturbation scenes less
violent.

(14:59):
And remove the Twinkies?
But I Sent this novel into mypublisher and he wrote back and he
said, lee, I've read the new manuscript.
And I knew what the next linewas going to be, which is, you're
fired.
And he went, not only are thescenes hot, they're real.
And I went, oh, my God, ifthis is what real lovemaking is like,
I'm the biggest failure in the world.

(15:20):
And meanwhile, my brother waslearning all about love from 357
vigilante.
But.
And here's the irony.
As it turns out, I'm lactose intolerant.
So he's been a virgin eversince he ran.
It's really been a tough timefor me.
Slathering.
I mean, until oat milk becamemuch more prevalent as a dairy substitute.
My entire romantic life wasfraught and sickening.

(15:43):
Wow.
You know, you cannot get thiskind of entertainment everywhere.
Come on.
Andrew and Lee Child areexactly the same.
Karen and Amy Bender, Right?
He doesn't know who Taryn andAmy Bender are.
Yeah, but the listeners don'twrite thrillers.
They're gonna.
The listeners will Google that.
Okay.
Though Karen did write a novella.
Mary Higgins Clark and herdaughter in law.

(16:04):
I'm sorry?
Mary Higgins Clark and herdaughter in law.
No, her daughter, Carol Higgins.
Is that her daughter?
Okay.
Yeah.
Sorry, Dave, your show.
No, it's okay.
I was just gonna.
We were waiting for you toshow up and Lee, I was saying, hey,
do you have good news to share?
Because last time Lee wastalking about, hey, I said, oh, I
can't talk about that news.
And then you, oh, well, Ican't mention that news.

(16:25):
So I'm like, well, tell mewhat you can tell me.
And then I'm.
I have good news to share, folks.
Let me just tell you righthere, Fallen Star is going to be
one of a series that is beingpicked up.
But I'm going to let you dropthe bomb because this is huge news.
I'm so proud of you, man.
Well, the big news is I can'tget into too many details, but a

(16:47):
major.
How do I put this?
Well, Eve Ronin is beingdeveloped as a TV series, right?
And Madison Lyntz, who playedMatty Bosch on Bosch and Bosch Legacy,
has been attached to star asEve Ronan, be one of the executive
producers.
And also my novel Calico hasbeen picked up by a major studio
for a streaming series.

(17:08):
And it's also well along theway, and I can't give you any more
details about that.
And then finally, I am coexecutive producer of a new mystery
series starring Brooke Shieldscalled Ally and Andy, at least for
the moment.
The title may be changing onAMC Acorn.
That starts shooting in threeweeks, and we'll be preparing sometime

(17:28):
in late 2025, early 2026.
Wow.
Holy moly.
He's not sleeping anymore.
He just sort of wakes.
And I have a new book comingout next summer called Murder by
Design, an Edison Bixbymystery, but I'm gonna change that
to Nick Thrillage.
Yes.
Not too late.
Find and replace.
Yeah, I'm gonna do that nowwhile we're on the podcast.

(17:51):
Yeah.
Now, Todd, I gotta know, andit feels kind of unfair to let him
share all that big fat news.
And then I just want to knowwhat big, delicious news you have.
Well, I've got big, deliciousnews that I can't say a single word
about.
Okay, super.
Let me just say, though, thatit's big and it's delicious.

(18:13):
It is big and it's delicious.
So what I can tell you.
So my new book, Only Way out,comes out in December, and there's
big exciting news about thatas well that you won't know until
November.
And then Eight Very BadNights, the anthology that Lee and
I did together, well, Lee waspart of, and I was reading his Sex

(18:37):
Scenes paperback of that comesout in October.
A major American streamingservice with very few letters in
the name owns my Gangsterlandseries, are developing it.
So that's nice.
Okay.
And then there's something else.
I'm doing that if I told youabout it, I'd have to kill you, but
okay, don't do that on a zoomabout it, in fact.
So there you go.

(18:58):
That's where I was.
Wow.
Well, can I ask the superobvious question that somebody somewhere
is wondering along withmyself, how do.
Now, granted, I don't want totake away from the fact that you
guys have been at this for a long.
Time, but you have a.
No, but I mean.
Yeah, okay.
You didn't have to agree sodamn fast.

(19:19):
Yeah.
Okay.
What happened?
The compliments.
Lee, you look so young.
Oh, Lee, I can't believeyou're over 30 suddenly.
Oh, yeah, you're old peoplelooking at.
You on the screen right now,Lee, and counting your age like a
tree from the wrinkles on yourface and my neck.
Yeah.
Let me continue this podcastlike this.
Oh, that's hilarious.
Oh, that's not.

(19:40):
Oh, that is good.
Yeah, that's.
I'll just do this.
That doesn't look odd, does it?
Well, now, can you just moveit backwards a little bit so you
can catch.
There you go.
There you go.
Now you Got the neck in there.
This looks totally natural.
Right?
That looks natural.
Do this and no one will notice.
No, people talk about my book.
You look like.
Like Shirley Temple if you do that.
Yeah.
There's some people, somenames I'd love to mention.

(20:02):
Who has.
Who has.
Let's just say that she hasspent entirely too much time on the
table.
I mean, every time I see heron a new series, I go, wait, how
can you push that back any further?
What makes her probably morefun to dance with?
Well, because you got.
There's a lot more hanging offthe back.

(20:22):
So anyway, my point.
I forgot what my point is.
Your question was how?
How?
I don't know what.
We've been doing this a long time.
How do we.
It was going to be somethingalong the lines of, how do you get
this much action intoproduction simultaneously?
Or has it just been.
And I know this from talkingto you several times, Lee, something

(20:44):
will get into process.
It'll sit there and get hold.
It'll get held and turn aroundor some sort.
Then it'll get green and thenit'll come back and then it'll get
held or it'll be pushed off orbe sold.
In the case of Eve Ronin, it'sactually been optioned several times
and developed several timesover the years.
And then, you know, there'sbeen strikes and pandemics, and then
you.
You have showrunners who comeand go and producers who come and

(21:08):
the development process can bevery, very long.
I mean, just ask Tom Perry howlong the old man was in development
before suddenly everything happened.
And for me, anyway, it's just.
It's weird.
All of a sudden, two of mybooks, Calico and Eve Ronin, are
moving along very quickly atthe same time, but there's a difference.
Whereas Eve Ronin, I'm verymuch involved in that show.

(21:30):
I'll be hands on in thewriting and production of that series,
along with the showrunner, Calico.
I'm not involved, really.
I mean, I selected theshowrunners and they bounced some
ideas off me, but I'm really.
I have not been invited in thesame way.
And that's not a bad thing.
It's just every, every bookand situation is different and I
didn't plan on being coexecutive producer of a TV series

(21:53):
at the same time.
It just kind of happenedbecause a friend of mine created
the show.
And it's a series about publishing.
It's about a very famous,successful mystery writer who's forced
to team up with a very young,inexperienced upstart to write her
next book.
And it's a, it's a, it's sortof like hacks with crime writers
instead of comedians.
And so it's, it's about theworld of writing mysteries and it's

(22:16):
about mysteries.
And because I've co authoredbooks and written lots of mysteries
and I'm experienced tv, I waslike perfect for that show.
And it just came togetherreally fast.
And it's amazing how quicklywe've written the scripts and how
quickly we're going into production.
And it's just, you don't know.
I mean, I've had periods whereI'm like, have no time at all because
I'm working so hard.

(22:36):
And then I'll have periodswhere absolutely nothing's going
on.
So it's a cliche to say strikewhen the iron's hot, but I do, I
take the jobs when they comebecause I know what it's like when
they aren't coming along.
Yeah.
And Todd, how are things outthere in the desert?
Last time we chatted, you wereleading, you were teaching, you were

(22:57):
writing, you were enjoying thedesert heat.
I'm like a Bedouin, I justenjoy the desert heat.
What, what, you know, how doyou, how do you compare to.
And this is another question Ithought of as I was coming up, competition.
My brother and I werecompetitive growing up and we're
only separated by two years.
And so I was wondering, do youguys ever have that little.

(23:19):
No.
Do you?
No.
I'll answer the first questionfirst, which is.
So the thing that actually Leetaught me is that you always got
to have a second thing.
And I always knew that mysecond thing was that I wanted to
teach.
I've always wanted to be aprofessor, but because I am defiant
towards leadership, I had tohave my own graduate school.

(23:42):
So I created the GraduateSchool in Creative Writing and Writing
for the Performing Arts at UC Riverside.
So I don't just teach.
I actually am running sort ofan empire, a cabal of writers.
So, you know, I've got 100grad students, I've got 13 faculty
people, I've got staff, I'vegot all kinds of stuff.

(24:02):
So it's a real full time job.
But it's awesome.
You know, it's everything Iever wanted to do.
I get to have my ownphilosophy on writing passed down
to other people.
And it's the philosophy thatessentially, you know, Lee and I
were raised with, which is,you know, be a professional, be a
writer, not just an author.
Know how to do a lot ofdifferent stuff.

(24:23):
And to answer Your second question.
I think that sort ofphilosophy has been one of the things
that has made Lee and I, butalso our sisters, who are also artists.
Not competitive in the least,but supportive because we recognize
this is a job.
You know, this is not.
It's precious in the sensethat I think we both really care
about the stuff that we do,but we're pragmatists.
Like, this is how we make a living.

(24:44):
This is how we eat, is.
We write, and we have a lifein the arts, and we do these things.
We're also very differentvoices, although Ty has a very similar
sense of humor.
We write very differently.
He's more literary, you mightsay, I'm more commercial.
He's Shakespeare on Gilligan's Island.
That's our joke.
But I don't know if.
We have a love of crimewriting and we have a similar way
of looking at the world, butwe do write differently, so we're

(25:06):
not really competing.
Yeah, very different kinds of books.
We now are published by thesame publisher, so we have a lot
of stuff in common.
But there's also sort of adifferent relationship.
And yes, Todd and I are brothers.
We're very close.
But also, I'm the oldest, andI can't help but think of my siblings
in a way, like my children.
Like, I feel thisresponsibility for them to do well
and to support them and to bethere for them.

(25:28):
So I take enormous pride inall of Todd's successes.
You know, I want him to do well.
You know, I was furious whenhe became an overnight millionaire
because it took me forever,but I mean, literally overnight.
I understand.
Lee, they just back up theBrinks truck to your house.
How come you worked so hard?
But, you know, I was proud ofhim and wanted to bury him in the

(25:49):
backyard in a shallow grave.
Exactly like that.
But so, no, there's no competition.
And I know that if I have aproblem in my writing, I can email
Todd at 2 in the morning andget an immediate answer.
If I have a legal question, Ican email my sister at two in the
morning and get an immediate answer.

(26:10):
If I think about my ownhealth, I can send my other sister,
who's not a doctor but willgive me a second opinion on all that.
You'll have a YouTube video.
You know, I think when yougrow up in a family of writers, the
notion that anything that wedo is competitive seems silly.
You know, it's always a struggle.
But I'm Lee's number one fan.

(26:31):
I think he's my number one fan.
And I think the thing thatsurprises people like when they meet
the both of us is that neitherof us take each other very seriously,
but we take each other's workvery seriously and what the other
person does.
That's not true.
I take you very seriously, Todd.
No, I mean other people don'ttake us very seriously as humans.

(26:51):
We aren't egomaniacs who areown work is what you're right.
Right.
But I think we always takewhat each other is doing as important
and as notable stuff.
And even something like this.
I run this graduate school andLee likes to come and see it.
You know, he wants to see likewhat we're out there doing.

(27:11):
And you know, I, I'm runningaround with my head cut off because
I'm running a, you know, a 10day conference with, you know, all
these guests and stuff.
And Lee just gets to sort ofwatch and be like, I didn't know
my 7 year old brother iscapable of this.
Yeah.
Todd and I also get to sharesome wonderful experiences.
I can't count the number oftimes Todd and I have been talking

(27:31):
to a writer we admire and justlook at each other and, and the communication
is.
Can you believe we're sittinghere talking to this writer as equals,
as friends, that we even knowthese people, you know, and so we,
we have a lot of fun togetherbecause even though we're successful
writers and we've both been onthe New York Times bestseller list,
in fact, the same week I wasnumber one and he was number six,

(27:53):
thank God it was the other way around.
I couldn't have lived with that.
He really could not live with that.
I think one reason we'resuccessful is Todd and I have still
not lost our wonder that we'rein this business and we're still
fanboys of all these writersand we get excited about being around
them and hearing them andmeeting them and we haven't gotten

(28:14):
so full of our own work that,you know, we somehow believe we are
above and beyond these otherwriters and new and upcoming writers
we're huge fans of and we'revery excited to meet.
You know, it's.
I find it.
So what's the word I'm looking for?
Todd can probably help with this.
There are some authors who areso full of themselves and they walk

(28:35):
around in their own glow like,aren't I wonderful?
And it's like they're missingout on so much.
I mean, so much.
But as far as Todd and I willtell him, if I think he's written
10,000 words where 2,000 would suffice.
You know, and he'll tell mewhen I've written something that's
so superficial that you can.
That it's like Saran Wrap, you know.

(28:58):
When you think about it,Serrano was a pretty great invention,
you know.
Well, you know, it's funny, asI was reading both of these, Fallen
Star and Only Way out, or asyou said, what was it?
Other.
Open All Night.
Open All Night.
I couldn't remember the name.
I don't even know where youcome up with that.
But anyway, I knew it wasthree words.

(29:19):
So Fallen Star feels like.
And most of your work doesfeel this way?
Lee, it feels like I'mwatching a television show.
And I said this to you lasttime we spoke.
And to me personally, that'sone of the greatest compliments I
could think of.
Because when I write, I do the same.
When I read, I want to.
I want to feel like I'mwatching a movie.
And sometimes people who getreally just verbose or too descriptive

(29:46):
or go down rabbit holes that Ithink they think probably fits the
story, but they don't.
I just want to go get cut tothe chase.
So it was always fun.
And I'm not saying this is acriticism of Todd, but here's one
way he and I are different aswriters, which is I want my authorial
voice to be not noticeable.

(30:09):
I mean, you'll hear my voicein the first paragraph or two of
a book, but then I want mywriting to disappear.
For you to get so caught up inwhat you're reading, you forget you're
reading a book.
And I am afraid if I writesomething too clever or descriptive
or funny in the description,it'll pull you out.
And I'm reading.
It'll feel written.

(30:29):
So my goal is to do what youjust described.
I want people to read my booksand get so caught up in it that it's
like a TV show.
They're forgetting theirreading and suddenly have to be reminded,
oh, I'm holding a book in myhand or a Kindle in my hand.
And I want the pacing to belike television or a film.
So most of my books aredialogue and action driven.

(30:50):
Very little is moved by what acharacter is thinking or a ton of
exposition.
If I have a clever phrase orobservation and I can't put it in
a character's mouth, I usuallylose it.
And it's taken me a long timeto develop that style.
And I credit Janet Ivanovichfor helping me find that voice.

(31:11):
It's allowed me to write apeople talk about my books moving
very fast.
Even if they're 100,000 words,they think, oh, it moves so fast
because I want it to have that energy.
And I can't dance and I can'tsing, but I can feel the rhythm and
pace of a book.
And every book I write has itsown beat.
And I can't describe why, butI can tell when a piece of writing

(31:33):
is not moving at that beat.
And once I know that beat, Ican move.
I can write very fast, and Ican't really articulate.
I can't point out a sentencewhy it has the beat or doesn't.
It's just something I feel internally.
And that comes from televisionbecause television has a beat and
conflict and act breaks and,And I do structure my books like

(31:54):
movies and TV shows.
I do write them in, in fouracts or three acts with plot turns,
everything that we as viewershave internalized over the years.
So it's not accidental.
And I do take it as acompliment that my books read as
if they're movies or TV shows.
I think it was Ashes Never Lie.
Could that have been the lasttime we spoke?
It had to have been because wedidn't speak over hidden in smoke.

(32:17):
I believe so.
My point being, I rememberwhen I was reading Ashes Never Lie,
and when you were describingit, that's exactly what happened.
All the work of reading disappeared.
And it was really weird.
Very few people can do that towhere I'm, or I'm instantly 10 chapters
in, and I kind of look up, I'mlike, and I've lost track of time.

(32:41):
And I'm like, wow, that is,that's such a gift to be able to
craft it that way.
And I think the secret comesback to.
And you just said it.
And it's one of the things Ilove the most about reading.
And Todd, you nailed this withsuch, such color is dialogue, just
tons of dialogue.
Because when you think aboutit, what are we watching tv?

(33:01):
What are we watching movies for?
It's for the dialogue is tohear the characters interact with
each other.
I don't need to, you know, I, I.
You don't have to paint theentire environment for me.
Just tell me.
We're in a hot car drivingthrough the desert.
Got it right.
You know, though, I, you know,I, I think.
And Lee's right.
Like, where we tend to be alittle different is I tend to be
a bit more narrative than he is.

(33:27):
Lee's writing dialogue,action, dialogue, action, dialogue,
action.
And I tend to because of thekinds of characters I write, which
are a little bit differentthan Lee's.
I tend to want to explore thelogic of why people do the things
that they do.
And I think a lot of this hasto do with the fact that Lee sort
of writes heroes and I writebad guys.

(33:48):
I write villains that aretrying to be good.
Lee writes about good peopletrying to stop the kinds of characters
that I.
Write about, except for my RayBoyd stories.
Except for his Ray Boyd stories.
And so I think, you know, whenI was writing the gangsterland books
about the hitman who hides outas a rabbi, a lot of the joy readers
got from that is understandinghow this guy who's not a rabbi is

(34:09):
teaching himself to think likea rabbi.
And there's no easy way to dothat just in dialogue.
You know, some of it has to be.
He is thinking about theTalmud or the midrash or whatever
in the new book, An Only Wayout, you know, it's an intentionally
faster style.
You know, I really wanted towrite a straight up black comic noir,
right?

(34:29):
And so it's a lot less interior.
But I still think that becauseI'm writing about bad people doing
bad things to worse people,short of everyone seeming like a
sociopath, I have to get intotheir heads a little bit more.
It's less than I have inprevious books, but I still like.
My joy as a novelist is booksare the only form where you actually

(34:52):
get to go into someone else's head.
You can always hear someoneelse's dialogue in whatever form
you're writing in.
But only fiction allows you tounderstand someone's logic.
And so to larger or lesserextents, in all the books I've written,
there's been a larger interiorelement to it.
And some might call that literary.
Some might just say that I'mjust a very thoughtful, considerate,

(35:13):
empathetic man.
The pleasure of reading yourbooks, Todd, is that it's written.
I mean, you take.
I take pleasure in the.
The construction of whatyou're saying.
And the most fun in Only Wayout is the descriptions and the backstory.
And, you know, the way you'reat the voice of the.
Of the narrator is so engaging.
Where the pleasure of thatbook is that I'm reading a book and

(35:36):
it's really good.
You're.
I'm intentionally going for adifferent experience than you are,
and there's great pleasures tobe had in both.
And I think the otherimportant thing is, you know, Lee
writes mysteries.
I don't write mysteries.
I write crime novels.
You know, I write.
You.
You always know who's doneeverything in my books.
And it's about invariably thecat and mouse between, you know,

(35:58):
different elements.
Lee's solving a crime, I'mdoing a crime.
Right, right, right.
That's true.
I should know this.
Had you guys collaborated on astory together?
No.
The closest is Eight Very BadNights, the anthology that came out
last year, I don't know ifyou've heard of it.
It's a nominee for the AnthonyAward, one of the most prestigious

(36:20):
awards given out at Bouchercon.
How many stories in thatanthology, Todd, have won awards
now or been nominated for awards?
So there's 11 stories in this anthology.
Three of them are in BestAmerican Mystery and Suspense.
Two were up for theInternational Thriller Award.
So these stories got picked upby the.

(36:40):
Wasn't there two up for the Edgar?
No, none were up for the Edgar.
Oh, no, one.
One was up for the Edgar.
Yes.
I forgot about.
One was up for the Edgar.
Yes.
And one was up for a Thrilleraward, too.
Yeah, one was up for theThriller award.
Which one got the Nobel Peace Prize?
You know, I said no to itbecause I wanted to be on the COVID
of Time for my own work, right.
Not for everyone else's.

(37:03):
But in this case, I had soldthis book to Soho Press.
Part of it was because I said,oh, look, you're going to have both
Goldbergs in a book at thesame time.
And they were very excitedabout it.
And then they said yes.
Then they read my story.
They weren't so excited.
Then I had to tell Lee, oh, bythe way, I just sold a book and you're
in it.
That's not how I found out Todd's.

(37:25):
Change the story a little bit.
I was at a conference and raninto his publisher who said how pleased
she was that she waspublishing me.
I went, you are.
She said, oh, yeah, you're inTodd's anthology.
I went, oh, right.
I forgot about that.
And I called Todd.
I go, what anthology?
He says, hanukkah stories.
I said, I don't have aHanukkah story.
He said, I'll just writeanother Ray Boyd.

(37:46):
I said, he's a horrible individual.
It's full of sex and violence.
Well, that's the meaning of Hanukkah.
So, you know, it's true.
It's true.
But, you know, so Eight VeryBad Nights is the first time we,
you know, really sort ofcollaborated creatively because I
was his.
I was his editor, so I editedthe story.
But to go back to somethingLee had said earlier about sort of
the, you know, the childhoodambitions that we get to share, I

(38:08):
remember One night, veryvividly, we were having dinner with
Lauren's Block.
And I mean, this was a coupleyears ago, and Lee and Larry are
good friends, and I've gottento know.
More than a decade ago.
Todd.
Yeah, it was a while ago, butthen, you know, Lawrence asked me
to be in these anthologies,and he's asked Lee to be in these
anthologies.
And what I've always admiredabout the anthologies that he's put

(38:28):
together is he really sort ofcurates it.
Like he says, oh, I'm going toget these writers into this anthology.
And because of these writers,this book is really going to work
in a way that they don't even know.
And so when I was puttingtogether eight very bad nights and
selecting the 10 writers thatwere going to be in it, I really
was thinking about howLaurence Block would approach an
anthology.

(38:49):
Oh, I want someone that does this.
I want someone that does this.
I want funny, I want weird, Iwant sad.
And so I was using this thingthat I had learned from Lawrence
Block, asking me to be in hisanthologies and understanding how
he did stuff.
And that just goes back to,like, us sitting in a restaurant
talking to Lawrence Block andhim talking about his life.
And I was aware of that momentas I was putting that book together.

(39:11):
What I wasn't aware of wasthat I'd have to edit three hardcore
sex scenes out of my brother'sshort story.
Todd and I grew up reading andloving Lawrence Block.
So A, we'd be friends withhim, or B, he'd ask us to contribute
to, like, I don't write short stories.
That's Todd's thing.
I'm not a short story writer.
Lawrence Block asked me tocontribute a short story to Anthology,

(39:32):
and I don't write short stories.
I told him that.
He says, well, you'll writeone for me.
No.
I called Todd and Todd said, bleep.
If Lawrence Block asks you towrite a short story, you write a
short story.
Write a short story.
So I wrote a short story,which he loved and that got mentioned
in reviews of the book, is agreat short story.
So I actually had a shortstory in my drawer that written years
earlier and didn't know whatto do with.

(39:54):
And it was called Ray BoydIsn't Stupid.
It was sort of my attempt to,like, play with the trope of Postman
Always Drinks Twice in BodyHeat, about these idiot guys who
only think below the waist andget into idiotic trouble.
And I sent it to LawrenceBlock, and he said, this is fantastic.
I love this.
You have to write a sequel Isaid, yeah, what do I do with this
story?

(40:14):
He said, I don't know, but youhave to write a sequel.
So I write a sequel.
And he reads the sequel and hesays, this is great.
You need to write another one.
I said, what am I gonna dowith these?
I don't care.
Just write them for me.
I'm not gonna write them for you.
He said, well, if you keepwriting them, you have a book someday.
I said, I've got books.
And it was Todd who pulled meout to write a third one of these

(40:37):
Ray Boyd stories for EightVery Bad Nights.
And I've been surprised by howreaders have embraced this character.
I'm now actually talking to myagent about doing a collection of
linked novellas with this character.
But it goes.
It's so different thananything I've ever done.
And I have Lawrence Block tothank for it.

(40:58):
I mean, Lawrence Blockencouraged me and.
Then to pull it all together.
Dave to the Family is.
I then received Lee's short story.
And so I told Lee, Hey, 25pages, 7,000 words, really?
No more than that.
He sends me a 45 page, 14,000word short story with not one, not
two, but three at the time.

(41:19):
Sex scenes that violated boththe laws of Utah.
Physics.
Physics, morality.
And my desires as his brotherto know that he knew these things.
What I then did almostimmediately was call my sisters and
be like, listen to what Leejust wrote.
And then read them this.
You read them aloud to my sisters?
I read them aloud and my wifewas on the other side of the house

(41:43):
and she's like, what the fuckare you reading?
And I was like, oh, let mesend it to you.
It's the.
It's the erotic styling of Lee Goldberg.
She goes, I cannot believeshe's French.
I cannot believe you're themen are married.
You're a sickening pervert.
You.
How can you have these evil thoughts?
You know, what's wrong with you?
And the wonderful thing,though, is when the reviews came
out, like, you know, I'd go onGoodreads to see what people were

(42:06):
saying about the book, andthey wouldn't even mention all the
stories.
They'd be like, you know, a lot.
Of this was good.
Some of this was straight up pornography.
And I'd be like, well, let meclip that and send that to Lee.
And yet the LA Times singledthe book.
They loved it out.
Several critics actuallysingled out that short story as a
great one.
It's a great short story.
I think the thing that'samusing is because Lee has all these

(42:28):
Ardent fans.
He's written all these very,very popular books.
They don't understand like thedimensions of the work that he does.
And so when he writes theseshort stories that fit right into
sort of standard contemporary.
Scott Phillips, like noir, JimThompson noir.
It is a classic noir story.
They're expecting at somepoint sort of a more cozy turn or

(42:51):
a more law abiding turn.
And Lee's like, no, thesepeople are going to have anal sex
until they pay.
My hero's not my protagonist.
Not going to rescue the womanin trouble.
He's going to let her getcarved into pieces.
Oh my God.
And like.
And that's what I like to read.
Well, I just want to go backand say, for the record, Lawrence

(43:13):
Block.
I was reading Lawrence Blockwhen I guess I was in college.
Something about his stylecaptivated my brain.
Bernie Rodenbar, the way thathe could write the mystery of the
break in of the burglary butstill have so much humor.
I'm like, I don't know whothis guy.

(43:34):
I mean I was.
But he also, while he wasdoing that, he was writing hardcore
porn under a different name.
He was, he is, I'm not joking,he is one of the most successful
lesbian writers in Americanliterary history.
What reveal when that one ofthe most influential lesbian writers
was actually Lawrence Blockwriting under a woman's name in the
50s and early 60s.

(43:56):
And the lesbian community isokay with that because the books
were like really good.
I mean, he has a really darkside and he published, no, not long
ago, about a serial killerwho's very tempted to murder his
own family.
He has a.
But he still has the humorthat you associate with Lawrence
Block.
I mean, it's interesting people.

(44:17):
Ellery Queen, for some reason,Ellery Queen Mystery magazine gave
me a five star review for theshort stories that we're talking
about now.
They're so hard edged, butthey say it's still Lee, which is,
you know, my voice still comesthrough, even though it's a different,
different genre.
I think a lot of authors thatTodd and I admire are the ones who
can shift between genres andstill tell stories in their unique

(44:40):
voice.
I mean, right now I'm reallyenjoying Stephen King's police procedurals.
He can write a really goodpolice procedural.
Wow, give me the name of that one.
Well, there's the outsider,there's Holly Mercedes, Holly Gibney
are essentially police procedurals.
He did a book called BillySummers about a hitman.
Has nothing supernatural in itat all.
Really good book.

(45:00):
Holly has nothing supernaturalin it at all it's just a straightforward
police procedural and it's excellent.
Lost the Hammett Prize toStephen King one year, and I was
like, well, what are you gonna do?
Yeah, you lose to Stephen King's.
It's fine.
It's fine.
Hey, give me the title of thatreally sick one from block.

(45:21):
The last one who.
I'll have to look it up.
The name of the really sick one.
I will do something I don'tusually do on podcasts.
I will.
You talk among yourselves.
I'll go online and Lee and do.
Some research while we talk.
This is my chance to revealsecrets about Lee.
Well, Todd, tell me this.
Is there anything.

(45:41):
And we may have touched thisbefore, and you're living a lot of
your dream.
Not to be cliche, but I'mabsolutely living my dreams.
Are there things, Todd, thatyou go, you in your quiet moments
when you're just in betweenclasses or writing, where you go,
you know what?
Before I leave this place, Iwant to do blank for sure.

(46:02):
For sure.
I mean, outside of, you know,playing quarterback for the Raiders
or first base for the OaklandDays, who now live in Sacramento
or Las Vegas, and that thosedon't seem tangible.
But, you know, I think anyonethat's creative always has a carrot
dangling in front of them, youknow, so the easiest thing to say
is, oh, I just want to get better.
You know, I want to continueto get better, but, you know, I'd
like to see, you know, Ihaven't spent a lot of my career

(46:27):
focusing on TV and creating TVshows like Lee did.
I knew that I wanted to writelike I did.
I still do it like he does.
I'm not finished early in hiscareer, like, that was his goal.
Right.
And that wasn't my goal.
But as I've gotten older andTV has sort of morphed into the kind
of things that I write,specifically the desire to have a

(46:48):
TV show that I create or thatI play a big role in that that's
become a larger thing.
I've had the champagne problemof time, which is, you know, I write
a new book that comes outevery 18 months and where Lee is
putting out, you know, morebooks because that's his full time
job.
Like, for me, that's theperfect sort of timeline for me to

(47:09):
do the other things that I do,to run an MFA program, to write nonfiction,
things like that.
But now that my pace has maybeslowed a little bit because I've
been working on some TV stuffthat didn't show up on screens, you
know, all these things Seemmore possible.
But, you know, I think thedream that we both had as young people

(47:32):
and that we.
The reason we get up in themorning every day is like, I. I just
want to go out there and tellgreat stories and have people enjoy
them on a.
On a daily basis.
I remember this was a longtime ago, maybe 10 years ago.
I was moping around mybackyard, upset about some perceived
injustice, and my wife cameout and she was like, what do you.
What are you pissed off about?
I don't remember what it was Iwas angry about.

(47:54):
And she was like, let me askyou a question.
I said, okay.
And she's like, have youachieved every dream you've ever
had?
And I was like, yes.
She's like, you haven'treceived a bad review of one of your
books since when?
And it was like, 2002.
She's like, you have agraduate school that you created
in your own image, right?

(48:16):
And they compensate you for it.
I was like, yes.
And she was like, what else?
What more do you want withyour career than what you have?
And it was so, like, it's sucha simple conversation to have, right?
But it's that.
Get beyond your own ego andyour own shit and realize, like,
oh, my God, I've been.
I've done it.
And, like, find more joy inthe things that I do.

(48:38):
And that was that moment whereI really was like, I am going to
take joy in every creativeexperience, that what I'm feeling
is not anxiety.
What I'm feeling is excitement.
And to sort of shift thatparadigm in my mind of, oh, I'm nervous
about this.
No, no, I'm not nervous.
I'm excited.
And to grasp all theseopportunities as like, hey, this
is a great fucking thing.

(48:58):
Like, if I stopped doing thisright now, I would have had one of
the great careers in novel writing.
Right?
Fantastic.
I could stop and be content.
I do it because I love it.
I do it because I want to do it.
And to come from that positionof joy stops me from striving for
things out of ego.
And instead of striving forthings out.
Of creative fulfillment, Imean, I'm literally doing what I

(49:22):
was doing when I was 10 years old.
I am sitting here writingstories while listening to movie
and TV soundtracks.
I'm doing exactly what Idreamed of when I was a kid.
Literally what Todd said.
Every single one of my dreamshas come true.
I have my health.
I have a wonderful family,been married for 35 years.

(49:43):
I write books.
I have TV shows.
I mean, I have nothing tocomplain about.
But I'm also, like Todd, oneof the rare people who knew from
childhood exactly what Iwanted to do and what I wanted to
achieve.
And I did it.
And I don't know how I did it,but I did it.
And I'm so lucky to be able tobe writing books and TV shows.

(50:05):
But if I had to stop tomorrow,like Todd, I could look back and
say, Well, I wrote 50 booksand produced thousands of hours of
television.
I've created my own TV series.
I've.
I've met almost everybody thatI've admired, everyone I wished I
could work with or wished Icould meet.
I mean, I wanted to meeteveryone who played James Bond.

(50:26):
I did.
I wanted to meet the peoplewho wrote the James Bond movies.
I did.
You know, I wanted to somedaymeet Steve Cannell.
Not only did I meet him, Iworked for him and I hired him.
You know, these things.
There was a moment when Toddand I were sitting at the LA Times
Festival of Books and we wentup very nervously to Donald Westlake
just to say how much weadmired him.

(50:47):
He said, sit down.
And we spent three hourstalking to Donald Westlake about.
And he talked to us like wewere colleagues.
And he talked about writingand books and Hollywood.
It was wonderful.
And I've had that experienceso many times.
So, yes, Todd and I haveabsolutely nothing to.

(51:10):
I think one reason we're sogood humored is we've been so fortunate.
Yeah, We've achievedeverything we want to achieve.
We don't envy somebody else's success.
So we can help people come up.
I never look at giving adviceto somebody else or helping somebody
else means it's going to takeaway from my own work.
Oh, if I help this person sella book, then my book's not going

(51:30):
to sell.
It's the opposite of waythings are in tv, where it's dog
eat dog and showrunners don'tassociate with staff writers.
And there's none of that inthe book world, at least not in the
crime genre.
I don't know about literary fiction.
Well, I mean, this is such a.
Dead Girl Blues was the nameof that long ago.
Yes, Dead Girl Blues.
The thing about the crimewriting community is surely, you

(51:51):
know, Dave, from talking toall of us on such a regular basis,
is all of us were picked lastto kickball.
Right.
And so there is, you know, allof us had ripe fantasy lives of how
we were going to crush thepeople that held us down as young
people.
And what it does, particularlyin the community in Southern California,
is literally every crimeWriter knows each other, we all know

(52:13):
each other, and we all doevents with each other, and we all
help each other out.
You know, you could pick upthe phone at any time and call, you
know, some of the biggestnames in crime writing in Southern
California, and they're goingto pick up and they're going to talk
to you.
And it's not like that in theliterary fiction world, because when
I was younger, I was in thatworld, too.
And in that world, everyone isstriving for the one thing.

(52:37):
Like, oh, there's one thing.
I will kill another person forthat one thing.
Whatever that one thing maybe, whatever it is, the tenured job,
the one literary book thatthey're gonna pay six figures for.
But that's not the way it isin crime fiction.
We will all talk shit abouteach other on an equal basis at any

(52:57):
given time.
Yeah, Ivy Pakota and I werejust texting mere moments before
the show about someone we both hate.
Oh, that's.
You just talk about how warmand open and camaraderie filled the
community is.
And now you.
You just torpedoed it, Todd.
Well, it doesn't mean we don't.
We don't.
We don't have petty.
We all talk about who we hateand who we want to see fail.

(53:17):
You just want them with everything.
We don't want them to fail.
We just.
We just don't want them to succeed.
You are excommunicated fromthe mystery industrial complex.
There's a couple things I want to.
Say because you guys went on along tangent.
I just want to say.
Scoot these in.
And Todd, I hope that I'mgoing to hear some of your good news.
I think that Gangsterlandseries has to be a television streaming

(53:41):
series that's just from me to you.
I believe it will be.
So that's good.
I've got a great.
So we were very, very, very,very, very, very, very, very, very
close at Amazon in 10 yearsago, January of 2020.
The plan was to start castingin March of 2020.

(54:03):
Yeah, I don't know if you guysremember 2020.
Oh, yeah, yeah, we'd like toforget it.
The people that were runningthat show with me all ran Bosch.
And what Amazon did is they reupped Bosch instead of making that
show.
But where the Gangsterlandseries is now.
Great team at a greatstreaming platform and network that

(54:26):
I'm very excited about andI'll be as involved as I possibly
can with that.
Interesting how our lives keepco mingling with Michael Connelly
and his universe.
I've got Madison Lynch.
Michael gave me that wonderfulblurb for Lost Hills.
It's so weird how.
But I guess also because thefiction community, crime fiction
community is so intertwined as well.

(54:48):
Well, if you guys, either oneof you, could do me a favor, it would
be a real solid.
And that is, I would love toget Michael Conley on the show.
There's very few people I haveyet to get that I really want on
the show.
And I've been a Bosch fansince day one.
And I'm so excited to see whatyour new cohort does with Eve Ronan.

(55:08):
I think Madison is.
She's gonna be great.
She's a hidden little.
She's born for it.
The fact that she can EP on itas well is super sorry to find out.
She was a fan of the books andwas aware of them and.
And in a way, it was like shewas hoping for that call.
Would you be interested in Eve Ronin?
Are you kidding?
I've read every book.
I mean, she.
She already seen herself asEve Ronin.

(55:30):
The amazing thing too is sheis a doppelganger for Lee's daughter.
She is.
Who's also named Madison, bythe way.
Yeah.
Which is very strange.
God, that is.
And Michael Connelly'sdaughter is also named Maddie, so
there's a lot of Maddie's out there.
All right, well, acongratulations to both of you, Todd.
I'd love to see gangster land happen.

(55:50):
I can't wait to see Madisonand Eve Ronan, I want to say.
Also great praise.
I was reading some praise foryou, Todd.
Stephen Graham Jones calling.
Likening you to an inheritorof Elmore Leonard.
I mean, one of my favoriteauthors of all time.
Mine too.
Ivy Pakota again, since you mentioned.
Praises its sharp, strange andunexpectedly moving mix of crime

(56:13):
and human longing.
And then Stephen Khan Coley.
Am I saying that right?
Yeah.
Applauds the characters thatexquisitely drawn tragic.
Calling it a reinvention ofthe noir gen folks.
Correct.
That is.
I just.
I'm basically sort of theEinstein of.
Of crime fiction.
I just.
Einstein formulas.
Hadn't really thought of itthat way, but I can see where you're

(56:36):
going.
Jewish.
Jewish.
Sure, sure.
Lee, that would make you what?
Of mystery.
Oppenheimer.
Of mystery.
Oppenheimer.
Oppenheimer.
Excellent.
I think myself as the BradPitt of mystery.
Huh.
I don't see that.
But I'm way.
Thank you.
First you call me old and fat.
Now you don't see me as theBrad Pitt of mystery.

(56:56):
Do just come on this show to.
Be Brad Dorf of mystery fiction.
Which give me real quickbefore we scoot out of here.
Give me a movie that eitherone of you have seen a favorite this
summertime that you're like,you know, I.
Just watched that weird sortof John.
Le Carre type film that StevenSoderbergh did.

(57:18):
Oh, yes, yes, I. I agree withthat one.
The bag.
The black bag.
Brown bag.
Brown bag.
It was a brown bag or black bag?
Black bag.
I think it's terrific.
It's like a really good playabout espionage.
It's excellent.
It's really.
It's like a two hander,basically, with several other hands.
But it's really good.
It's shot beautifully, well acted.
Michael Fassbender.

(57:39):
And he's the hitman who is offhis mark, right?
Who's tasked with finding amole in the agency that's likely
his wife.
Right.
And then a larger mystery unfolds.
But it's.
And as unlikable and cold asMichael Fassbender usually is, it
works for him in this movie asopposed to the Agency, which is a

(58:00):
terrible adaptation of abrilliant French spy show called
the Bureau.
What I love about all MichaelFassbender films and TV shows is
the scene where they have himjogging through an empty city street.
Everything he's ever made,including the Alien movies.
There's a scene where he runsat night through a city street.
Oh, that's hilarious.
I'm gonna do a super cut ofit, put it on YouTube, make a million.

(58:21):
Nice, nice.
You know what I've beenwatching lately, though?
That's good.
I don't know if either of youare familiar with it.
It's a show called Revival.
Oh, about the dead people?
Yeah, A town.
It's basically a parable ofthe pandemic where on one day everyone
who died comes back to lifethat died on a certain date.
And so an entire little cityis quarantined from the revivals.

(58:46):
That's what they call the dead people.
And it is funny and weird and smart.
And unfortunately, theyrelease new episodes every week as
though it's like a real TVshow and you can't watch 13 hours
at one time.
And so tonight, in fact, I'mpopping the corn and watching episode
eight of Revivals.
There's so much good stuff tolook up here, kids.
This is great.
I got a front row seat to allthis stuff.

(59:07):
Stuff TV series.
Since we're on this topic and.
And this made me think of you, Todd.
Was it?
And it was.
We so enjoyed it.
We turned right around andwatched it again.
Two more times in a row.
And that's Mobland with PierceBrosnan for some reason.
I think it's a combination ofthe way it's shot.

(59:28):
Feels kind of David Fincher esque.
And then it has the soundtrackthat's just.
I wake up every morningsinging that opening song.
And then you got Helen Mirren,who is just delicious in this particular
role, and Tom Hardy.
Right.
But Tom Hardy is my favorite.
What he can do with nothing.
I've never seen anybody domore with nothing than I think him

(59:49):
in this series.
So, interestingly enough,many, many years ago, after the first
Gangsterland book came out,the makers of Peaky Blinders optioned
it with the idea of Tom Hardy,who played a Jewish guy in Peaky
Blinders, possibly being therabbi David Cohen.
But as all things fell apart.

(01:00:11):
But I was like, he'd be great,except he does not look at all like
someone that could play aJewish person convincingly.
That's the thing aboutMobland, you know, it began as a
spin off of Ray Donovan.
It was going to be set in theuk and then it evolved away from
Ray Donovan.
They must have paid moneybecause it's.
Everyone knows it was Ray Donovan.

(01:00:32):
Right.
So, like, the Pit began as acontinuation of ER until they couldn't
make a deal with the Crichtonestate and suddenly became something
else.
They're going to be making itagain, though, I assure you.
By the way, there's anothergreat show, the Pit.
Absolutely love it.
Absolutely it.
You can't.
You can't look away.
Love that show.
And it's.
And it feels exactly like er.

(01:00:54):
I don't know how thishappened, but I stumbled down the
Ben Casey rabbit hole on YouTube.
He's great.
This is a medical show from 1961.
Oh, yeah, right.
Over 60 years old with VinceEdwards playing a doctor that makes
Dr. House seem lovable.
He is the most unlikableasshole doctor.

(01:01:14):
And it's great.
It's the first two seasons andit's all written and directed by
future Oscar award winningscreenwriters and directors and all
the big actors.
Like, of course, now they'reall escaping my head.
But all the big feature moviestars were doing parts in Ben Casey,
you know, James Caan and GeneHackman and all these people that

(01:01:37):
you'd never expect to see in aTV show.
It's brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant and asedgy and well written today.
I mean, it's very contemporary.
Even though the medicalprocedures are all, you know, archaic
and scary.
That should do it.
Yeah, yeah.
Leeches.
Let's bring out the leeches,smoke and have a cocktail.

(01:01:59):
We should trap pan you if youwant to feel better.
As we wrap.
I always ask what's bestwriting advice, but I'm going to
switch that up on its head alittle bit.
And I want to go, I want tosay it this way, and I want this
from both of you.
What is the best advice anyonehas ever given you?
And let's.
Let's tailor it specificallyto this world of writing, whether
it's tv, film, very simple.

(01:02:20):
The best advice I got.
And it's super simple.
It almost seems like, breathe.
Writers write.
You write.
Even if it's crap, you writebecause you can always rewrite what
you've written.
You can't rewrite a blank page.
You write, writers write.
And also writers read.
If you want to write, you needto read.

(01:02:41):
You need to.
You can learn as much from agood book as you can from a bad book.
And same for tv.
If you want to write for tv,you have to watch TV at that point.
I think some of the best wayto learn how to write, for instance,
which is both of Yallsspecialty, is to just watch really
great television.
Like we're watching Diplomatfor the third time in a row.

(01:03:02):
Fantastic show.
Because the writing is so good.
I'm just like, every time Iwatch it, I go, how does she do this?
And I'd love to pull up.
But also, what's great aboutthis show is it's not.
You think it's a drama, thenit becomes a wild comedy, then it's
a drama, then it's tonally,it's all over, and yet it somehow

(01:03:24):
works.
It's brilliant.
But you can.
You talk about dialogue.
One lesson I was taught byRichard Walter when I was taking
a screenwriting course atucla, is that your goal is not to
write the way people talk.
Because the way people talk isboring and it's ungrammatical and
sentences don't finish and all that.
You need to write elevated dialogue.

(01:03:44):
You need to write dialoguethat will entertain and reveal things
about the human condition andblah, blah, blah.
But it has to be special.
It has to be worth reading orworth seeing.
And so you can't just writethe way people talk because it's
going to be really boring andit's not going to engage.
So what you're talking aboutis great dialogue.
It's actually just great entertainment.

(01:04:06):
It doesn't have.
People don't talk the wayAaron Sorkin writes.
They don't talk the way TaylorSheridan writes.
They don't talk the way peopleTodd And I write, you have to develop
your own voice.
For me, I always think thatdialogue really is about an expression
of logic, like understandinghow a person thinks.
Because dialogue for me isalways the subtext.

(01:04:29):
You're revealing something bysaying the opposite of it or whatever.
But in terms of the bestadvice I ever got, it actually came
from Donald Wesley on the daythat Lee and I spent with him at
the LA Times Festival Books.
I had interviewed him in frontof a big audience and we were walking
out and we were talking and Iwas having a bad year.
I had written a book Icouldn't sell.

(01:04:50):
I mean, this was over 20 years ago.
I'd written a book I couldn't sell.
I didn't sort of know who Iwas as a writer.
I didn't know what I was doing.
And he had said, oh, you know,what are you working on?
What's going on with you?
And I was like, yeah, I wrotesomething that didn't work and I
could never get around it, just.
And I was like, you know, I'mhaving a real hard time with endings.
And I was like, how do youknow when a story is over?

(01:05:12):
A scene is over?
And he said, I know a story isover, a scene is over, a book is
over, a script is over whenthe reader could write the next page.
And it's really simplesounding advice, but when you apply
it practically to your work,it's like, oh, right, you have to
do something strange andsomething beautiful on every single

(01:05:33):
page to keep the reader offcenter or else they're always going
to be able to predict what you do.
And for me, that really taughtme to not write to the point of exhaustion.
It taught me to leave sceneswhen I'm hot because the reader is
not going to know what's goingto happen next.
And that really was sort oflike a profound piece of advice that
he gave me that changed theway I write and changed the way I

(01:05:57):
approach writing on sort of aday to day basis.
But then also, like, I have alittle note on a corkboard over here.
It's a Stephen Sondheim quote.
And I don't know if you'reexpecting me to quote Sondheim today,
but Stephen Sondheim saidcontent dictates form.
And the reason I have thatposted up on my cork board is it
stops me from being apretentious literary writer sometimes.

(01:06:19):
And it reminds me of thecontent that I'm writing deserves
a certain kind of form.
And that form is X, Y or Z,whatever it might be.
And it's Just a simplereminder to get out of my head, be
with the story.
You know, understand that whatI'm doing is about the content itself.
And those are just like.
They're simple little things,but on applied on a day to day basis

(01:06:41):
as a writer, really providestrong benchmarks for you to get
through the day.
I just thought of two otherkey pieces of advice I got.
Steve Cannell told me, everyscene has to reveal character or
move the story forward.
Every saint, everything.
Move the story forward has to go.
The other key piece of adviceI got from Michael Gleason, who created

(01:07:04):
Remington Steele.
Whether you're writing acomedy or a drama, every scene has
to have conflict.
If there is no conflict in thescene, it's not a scene.
And Steve Cannell kind ofadded to that.
He said, when you're in ascene, you have to assume that every
character has a different goaland they had a different idea of
what was going to happen inthat moment.
Like, he had to write Adam 12when he first started out.

(01:07:26):
And the way into it was he hadto establish a character right away
in the first two lines of dialogue.
It's only a half hour show.
So when Reed and Malloy wouldgo to the door, Ken always asked
himself, what is the personbehind the door planning to do today?
What were they in middle of?
What is their attitude?
Because the last thing theyexpected was two uniformed police
officers to show up at their door.
So how is this messing uptheir day or messing up their own

(01:07:47):
goals?
And that creates a natural conflict.
But the other one that he hadis never think of a bad guy as a
bad guy.
Always look at your story,flip it and say, what if the bad
guy is the hero of the story?
Because he's how I write.
Yeah.
And no one wakes up in themorning going, I will go take over
the world and do evil.

(01:08:07):
Stephen Miller.
Stephen Miller, he does.
He is evil.
But not to get political on ashow based in Orange county, but.
Or San Diego County.
You threw me right off, Todd.
Yeah.
Villains and shows.
Villains think they're thehero of their own story.
You have to think of what dothey want.

(01:08:29):
Yes.
They aren't always thinkingabout the detective or the crime
they've committed.
They're thinking about their.
I mean, this is why theSopranos are so good.
They're thinking about theirmortgage, their wives, what they're
gonna eat, why do I have gas,you know, all this stuff.
They're human beings.
So if you think of them thatway, when you go into each scene,
what is the bad guy?
Don't even think of the bad guy.
What is the this guy want?
And what does the protagonist want?

(01:08:49):
And how will those sparkscreate either humor or conflict?
And if they don't do that, ifthey don't reveal character and they
don't move the story forward,you cut it.
And too many new writers, andI see it because I have a publishing
company and I get a dozensubmissions a day, don't understand
that simple rule that thereshould be a purpose to the scene.

(01:09:10):
You don't front load with exposition.
You don't do info dumps.
You let but exposition comeout organically through action and
dialogue.
The way I always think aboutit is contested territory.
That in every single sceneThere is about 10 square feet of
contested territory, andsomeone is going to kill the other
person to get the majority ofthose 10ft.

(01:09:33):
And when I talk to youngwriters or my students, I always
talk about that with them.
It's like, and this issomething that I probably learned
from Lee about, like, hey,there's gotta be motivation in every
single scene.
But it's like, what are youwilling to do for those 10ft?
What is your character willingto do for that territory that they
want?

(01:09:54):
That every story is a littlewar, you know?
And oftentimes just sayingthose things to a writer who's having
problems with their workcrystallizes it in a way that they
can understand.
Right.
There's something that eachperson wants and something each person
needs.
What are they going to do toget that?
You can point to a scene andask a writer, tell me what the conflict

(01:10:14):
is in this scene.
What does each person want?
How does this scene revealcharacter or move the story forward?
If they can't tell you, thenthat's it.
You know who does brilliantly?
The thing you said about acontested space, whether you like
him or not, Taylor Sheridan isbrilliant at having every scene rippling
with conflict.

(01:10:34):
Now, sometimes he has to getridiculous to do it, but he's brilliant
at that.
You sense immediately whateach person is willing to do for
their contested piece of land,literally his land in many of his
shows.
But still the conflict inevery single one of his scenes is
palpable.
And he was never better doingthis than in Hell or High Water.

(01:10:55):
Like that is.
Oh my God, that movie.
I can watch that over and overand over again just to get to that
last scene, which I knowwhat's going to happen in it.
And here's a great example ofif the reader can write the next
page, you're done.
Well, the reader can write theNext page.
At the end of that story, theycan imagine what might happen next.
But you're still left wondering.

(01:11:15):
I love that movie.
And it's also.
It does that thing that he hasbecome more ham fisted about, which
is it's talking about acultural issue, it's talking about
a social issue, and it'sbringing it down, boiling us down
to the character level, whichis another sort of big thing that
I think we do as crime writersis we.
We sort of examine bad things in.
In the world and look at themon a personal level.

(01:11:37):
But he does essentially themortgage crisis and the banking crisis
and the end of, you know,ranching in America and boils it
down to three people.
And it's such a.
It's such a wonderful, tightscript and great movie.
And Jeff Bridges was neverbetter than he was in that role.
I was gonna say that the twoof my favorite things Jeff Bridges

(01:11:59):
was going through my head wasthat one.
And, and, and Lee, youmentioned this earlier.
You referenced old.
The old man.
I just thought that particularrole for him was.
I, I did not want that show to stop.
I wasn't a fan of season two,but season one had some of the best
fight scenes I have ever seenon film.

(01:12:20):
And I would argue that TaylorSheridan in Wind river had one of
the best shootout.
Shootout, yeah.
Ever captured on film.
He had a couple in Yellowstonethat were pretty amazing as well.
The one one river, whenthey're in a circle shooting each
other.
It's one of the greatestshootouts ever.
Yes.
Love that scene.
I got plenty of homework todo, thanks to.
There's the scene that if Iwere teaching screenwriting.

(01:12:42):
There's a scene when I wasteaching screenwriting, used all
the time was a brilliant scenefrom the Wire where two guys are
at an old crime scene goingthrough a cold case and the only
word they use is the F word.
Yeah.
It's all communicated through action.
And it's a brilliant scene.
And there's a scene like thatin Wind in Hell or High Water where
Jeff Bridges and the Indiancop go to a restaurant and they have

(01:13:04):
to order lunch from this waitress.
Right?
And it's so simple and yet itreveals so much about her character,
about them, about the place.
It's perfection and it's funny.
I would use that scene as a example.
Yeah, they order steaks.
What are you not gonna have?
Excuse me?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.

(01:13:25):
What are you not gonna have?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, guys, I have a feelingwe could probably go for another
hour, but we have other thingsto Do.
But thank you so much for this.
I mean, it's always so much fun.
It's like I just kick back.
It's like the only thingmissing is big old bucket of popcorn.
I could go for some chicken, frankly.

(01:13:46):
Yeah.
And so we know that we have TVseries in the making.
We've got books in the making.
Now, Todd, you mentioned something.
Your book has gotten bouncedto December.
So it's not November, which ison the galley.
That's correct.
It's not.
Well, it's not November for everybody.
It's in December for everybody.

(01:14:06):
He's being sly.
Yeah, I always know.
I know the expression of hissly when he gets to doing it.
My book comes out in October.
I think It's Tuesday the 14thor something.
14 14th.
I was close.
Yeah.
The cool thing is that Lee andI will have books out at the same
time, essentially, which onlyhappens once every five years or

(01:14:26):
so that we end up on the samepublishing schedule.
Oh, we had a lot of fun.
Well, I had Calico out at thesame time.
You had.
One of your pictures, don't die.
Yeah, we were able to.
A bunch of events together.
So I have Fallen star comingout October 14th, 12th, which you.
I can't remember.
Now you've confused 1414.
Another book coming out, Ibelieve in June called Murder by

(01:14:48):
Design.
And then I don't know what'scoming after that.
I have to figure out what I'mwriting next.
Oh, right.
And then I have another bookthat will come out in either 2026
or 2027 when I finish itcalled Salton Sea.
You already know the title.
Oh, yeah, I already know the title.
I didn't know the title of mybook till two days ago.
Open All Night and Murder by Design.

(01:15:09):
This has always been the title.
And it's about organized crimein the 1960s at the Salton Sea.
Got it.
Real quick question, both ofyou guys.
Are you now permanently withAmazon Publishing or is this just
happens to be these two booksin my case, just.
Happens to be these two books.
My next book after this onewill come out with Counterpoint.

(01:15:29):
Who published all my gangsterbooks for me.
I've been published by AmazonPublishing for, God, at least a decade,
maybe long.
Maybe at least forever.
They could drop me tomorrow.
They could drop me afterseeing this interview and decide
we don't want to be associatedwith it.
There's a good chance.
But this sounds like I'mkissing up.
I'm in a terrible negotiatingposition every time my contracts

(01:15:50):
are up at Amazon because theyknow how much I love being published
by them.
I've never had a betterpublishing experience than I've had
with Amazon.
I have a wonderfulrelationship with my editors.
They've been grooming Todd foryears now to get him to do this book.
That is actually true.
No, they're great.
I mean, how could I be upset?
I've got how many series nowwith Amazon?

(01:16:12):
I've got the Ian Lewis spy series.
I've got the Sharp and Walkerarson Detectives.
I've got the Eve Ronin books.
I'm starting a new series withEdison Bixby.
Quite a few.
I mean, when I just go to thefront of your book, Lee, I mean,
you've got.
Yeah, you've got your other titles.
Sharp, Walker, Ronan Ludlow.
I mean, you take.
You take five, six pages justto do what you have done in the past.

(01:16:36):
That's just.
And there's stuff left out of that.
All of that comes from theinitial thought of, what if I slathered
Rocky Road ice cream on a woman?
And scene.
You know, that's the scene,though, Todd, that got me my deal
to write for Hallmark.
There'd be no mystery 101 TVseries if an executive at Hallmark

(01:16:57):
hadn't read that and said,that's Christmas to me.
That's a man who knows smalltown crime on the holidays.
No one more perfect to writewholesome family entertainment than
legal.
Put that guy in a zip sweaterin a small town and put Christmas
Town up for sale.
That's right.
Happy holiday.
Yeah.
If you told me the one TVseries I created would be on Hallmark,

(01:17:20):
I never would have believed it.
Amazing.
Well, guys, enjoy your weekend.
Thank you for spending timewith the Thriller Zone.
Thanks for having us.
Anytime.
I can get.
The Thriller Zone is great.
Your number one podcast forstories that.
Thrill the Thriller Zone.