June 5, 2025 • 39 mins
On today's 230th episode of The Thriller Zone with Dave Temple, get ready to dive into the thrilling world of book publishing with the fabulous Emily Bestler, a true rock star in the industry!
We’re talking about her journey from studying English at Columbia to being the Senior VP and Editor-in-Chief at Emily Bestler Books.
With a resume that boasts 79 New York Times bestsellers, she's not just any editor; she’s a literary wizard making dreams come true for authors everywhere. We’ll chat about what makes a successful author-editor relationship, how to spot a bestseller, and the magic behind storytelling that keeps readers glued to the page.
Plus, Emily spills the tea on the latest trends in dark romance and other genres, so buckle up—this is one episode you do NOT want want to miss!
Takeaways:
- This episode marks the 230th installment of the Thriller Zone, and guess what? We're gearing up to celebrate four fantastic years of thrilling content!
- Our guest, Emily Bestler, has an impressive background, having published 79 New York Times bestsellers, including works from renowned authors like Jodi Picoult and Vince Flynn.
- Emily emphasizes the importance of authenticity in writing, stating that writers can't fool readers; they need to write what they know or do deep research to connect.
- In the ever-evolving publishing landscape, staying adaptable is key, especially with trends like TikTok Book Talk changing how books are marketed and discovered.
- Emily's insights about the darker side of storytelling reveal her passion for horror and the complexities of human nature, making it clear why readers are drawn to these narratives.
- The episode wraps up with a reminder that whether you're a seasoned writer or just starting out, writing what you love is crucial for success in the publishing world.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Macmillan
- Random House
- Atria Pocket Books
- Emily Bessler Books
- Simon and Schuster
- Scribner
- Free Press
- Little Simon
- Jack Carr
- 1201 Books
keywords: thriller podcast, book publishing, Emily Bessler, New York Times bestsellers, author editor partnership, storytelling magic, commercial fiction, literary quality, dark romance trends, publishing industry insights, book marketing strategies, author interviews, writing advice, un-agented submissions, thriller genre, creative writing tips, horror publishing, bestsellers, book publishing process, author success stories
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Hello and welcome to theThriller Zone.
I'm your host, David Temple.
And on today's.
What is it?
230th episode of the Thriller Zone.
As we kick off the month ofJune, you realize that in about two
weeks, two and a half weeks,we're going to celebrate four years
with the Thriller Zone.
(00:33):
I thought I was going to gethit 300 episodes and I got pretty
darn close.
But hey, four years, come on now.
But on today's episode, I have.
Wow.
Probably easily one of thebiggest names in the book publishing
business.
She's been educated at thebest schools, has a bachelor's degree
in English and an MA inEnglish from Columbia University.
(00:56):
After galloping through NewYork University's publishing program,
it was on to Macmillan, thenit was on to Random House and then
to Atria Pocket books.
Then in 2011, our guestfounded Emily Bessler Books where
she currently resides assenior VP and editor in chief.
That's right.
During her 16 years Simon andSchuster, Emily has published, check
(01:21):
this out.
79 New York Times bestsellers,12 number one bestsellers.
With a roster that includesfolks like John Connelly, Vince Flynn,
Brad Thor, Jodi Picoult, JackCarr, to name a few.
Our good friend.
So if you can't tell by now, Iam incredibly geeked to welcome the
(01:43):
talented, the lovely, the ohso charming Emily Bes Thriller right
here to the Thriller Zone.
Yes.
Okay, good deal.
And is that a puppy I seerunning around?
Yes, I've got two of themrunning around and they're my constant
companions and sometimesdisruptive ones.
(02:03):
That's okay.
Because if, if it weren't forthe fact that our one year old yellow
lab Sunny was not at daycare,she would be.
Aww.
Bouncing around going, dad, Iwant to be on TV too.
Oh, I know.
They're so sweet, aren't they?
There's nothing like it.
Are you kidding me?
So last time we spoke, you'renot going to remember this 2019 thriller
(02:30):
fest.
It was my first Thriller Fest.
You're bouncing through the room.
It was at the bank.
Big banquet, dinner, finale.
Yeah, some guy, what was his name?
Jack Carr or something like that.
I was in love with people.
Oh, yeah.
And you bounced through and Iwas like, emily.
And you're like, hi, I don'tknow who you are, but we're going
(02:50):
this way.
Well, yes, that was a.
That was a lot of people.
That was a lot of people.
And that was.
It wasn't quite the cusp, butit was cusp adjacent for him very
much.
Talking about blowing up.
I know.
And he was so thrilled to be there.
(03:10):
And he still is so thrilled.
You know, it's all been a bigadventure for him, which is really
fun to see.
Isn't it nice when you find aguy who A, has lived it, B, loves
it, C, writes about it, and D,most importantly, is still the same
guy that he was when it all started?
Yeah, it's huge.
That makes it all worthwhile.
(03:33):
And I think, you know, alsoone of the keys to success, you know,
because he really, reallycares about his readers and he really
cares about doing the best jobpossible and doing impeccable research
and, you know, he's justunjaded by it all.
Yeah, that's gotta be a toughlittle road to hoe because you've
(03:58):
been at this a couple of years.
Few years, few decades, and itwould be hard for you not to be jaded,
I would think, with the waythat the business is rolled this
way and the other.
Yeah, a lot of changes.
Right.
You know, it's all.
It never gets any less fun.
I just feel as if I'm reallyso lucky to have the job I have.
(04:23):
And you know, every job hasits ups and its downs, but I just
feel so lucky that on a day today basis I just get to spend my
time talking to reallyinteresting, creative people and
reading and talking aboutstorylines and, you know, and helping
to make people's dreams come true.
(04:46):
That right there.
Yeah.
Making people's dreams come true.
I mean, think about how manypeople in the world can say that,
you.
Know, it's extremelysatisfying and, and also always inspiring
to me how many people thereare out there in the world writing
books.
(05:07):
It's so cool to me.
Yeah.
I saw a, A stat.
I'm not going to remember itright now because I'm on the, on
the bubble here, but I saw astat on how many books are being
released, released on anygiven day.
And I was like, that can'tpossibly be, but it is.
Yeah.
All those stories in people'sheads, which just tells me.
(05:30):
Tells us, does it not, Emily,that as long as there's somebody
breathing, there's somebodywho wants to read a good story.
I want to make sure that I.
I've got a couple of questions.
I'll make them easy.
They're.
They're all softballs.
I promise I won't be hard onyou, but there's a.
There's a couple of things.
I had been thinking about this.
(05:51):
You know, I, I've beendreaming about this for some time.
So for you to take the time tospend time.
Thriller Zone is.
It's an honor and a pleasure.
Can I just say that?
Well, thank you so much.
I feel the same.
Thank you.
Well, I want to know, becausewe're talking.
We started off with Jack Carr.
What makes like that long termauthor editor partnership so successful?
(06:12):
I, I know there's a lot ofelements, but just like, what's that
key strand that pulls it all together?
I mean, imagine it's differentfor, for different people, but I
think for my authors, theyknow that I am 100% on their side
and I'm always going torepresent their interest, the company,
(06:34):
and I'm always going to tellthem the truth.
And if it's bad, then we'll besad together.
If it's good, then we'll behappy together.
I feel as if the agent and theauthor and myself, we're, you know,
we're the central, we're thecore and no one cares or could ever
(06:55):
care more than us.
Wow.
Yeah.
Then it moves out from thereto, you know, a great publishing
team, great marketing team,great publicity team, all of that.
But I, you know, I, I thinkthe main thing is my authors know
how much I care and that I'msticking with them.
I'm not going anywhere.
You know, we're building this together.
(07:17):
I know how talented they areand if things aren't working out,
it's not their fault.
You know, might not be myfault either, or our fault, but it's
not their fault.
They've done their job.
And our job is to keep pushingand never give up.
Nice.
Never give up.
I'm going to ask a questionthat I would.
That came to my mind as I wasmaking notes and I'm going to look
(07:40):
like a complete idiot, but I'mokay with that because it happens
from time to time, Emily.
But I'm like, okay, Simon and Schuster.
She works with Simon and Schuster.
But I'm like, I've alwaysknown you as Emily Bessler Book.
So you have that imprint.
So help me understand, likeI'm a 10 year old, how that structure
works.
(08:00):
Well, of course there's thelarger Simon and Schuster, and then
in Simon and Schuster thereare a number of imprints, such as
Scribner, the children'sdivision, Free Press.
Well, not Free Press anymore,Little Simon.
Atria.
And so within the Atriaimprint is nested Emily Bessler Books.
(08:26):
Got it?
Yes.
And I work with the Atriapublicity and marketing and advertising
and then the wider sales forcefor all of Simon and Schuster.
But Emily Bessler Books is Teeny.
It's me and two senior editorsand my assistant.
So that's, that's who we are.
(08:49):
Girlfriend, if I may say that.
It may be teeny, but it's powerful.
I mean, come on now, after.
Okay, so after 79, 80 New YorkTimes bestsellers, is that about.
About.
Right, right.
It begs the question, youknow, what drives your eye for discovering
(09:10):
that best selling talent?
You know, what is that driving force?
And what patterns do you seein authors that tend to just break
through all the noise?
So it's kind of a two part question.
I have always said that Ireally am middle America.
I grew up in a small town inMartinsville, Virginia.
(09:33):
I grew up buying books at thegrocery store with my mom.
There were no bookstores.
I checked out books from thelibrary, so.
And I read everything.
And so then I came to collegein New York City.
But I've never left thathistory behind.
(09:55):
So I've never.
I'm not dwelling in some sortof intellectual ivory tower.
If I really, really likesomething and I have read a bazillion
books because that's what I dofor fun.
Not just for work, but for fun.
And I'm never not reading.
And I think if I likesomething, so are a lot of other
(10:18):
people going to.
Because I am middle America.
So I have that faith, I havethat knowledge in myself.
If I'm loving something, itcan't be that crazy, right?
Because that's not what mybackground is.
I'm not trying to prove anything.
I'm not coming from somestrange angle.
(10:38):
I'm just, I'm every reader.
Well, I just realized that wehave a little something in common.
Martinsville, home of theMartinsville Speedway.
I'm from Lynchburg.
Oh, no way.
Oh, I love Lynchburg.
It's a great town.
Yes.
City of Seven Hills.
Oh, my gosh.
(11:00):
All right, I've got another.
This is kind of philosophy.
When you're working withauthors across different genres,
and I know that you're kindof, you're, you're branching even
more.
So which we're going to coverhere in a second.
How do you balance, or do you.
Well, you have to balancecommercial appeal with literary quality
(11:20):
because you, you impress me asbeing very literary fiction savvy.
However, you do have to, youknow, the bills have got to be paid,
so the light stay on.
So it's commercial appeal, too.
Yes, definitely.
So how do you, you know, howdo you do that working among two
different, multiple genres?
Well, I mean, it's a couple of things.
(11:40):
There's that storytelling Magic.
A natural born storyteller hasa magical ability that nobody can
replicate.
And they may tell a story inthe most beautiful prose in the world,
or they may tell it in alittle more of a simple style.
(12:02):
But whatever that magic isthat, you know, thousands of years
ago made everybody gatheraround the fire to listen to the
tribe storyteller.
That's what that is.
And it's magic.
And you cannot fake it.
And if you can recognize it.
And I think again, if you'veread enough and loved enough books
(12:25):
and paid attention, just likeany reader picks up a book and says,
oh my God, I can't stopreading this thing.
Yeah.
So that's what it is.
And I think for those whosucceed, you have to be able to revise,
you have to be able to take suggestions.
Those authors who do not enjoythe editorial relationship and the
(12:49):
back and the fourth, they tendnot to.
Now, I'm only talking aboutcommercial fiction and nonfiction,
but that relationship, I thinkis key to an author's success.
Because, you know, forexample, as I have said to many an
author, okay, you're tellingme what you meant and you're telling
(13:12):
me what I should be thinking.
But you don't get to tellevery reader who buys your book this.
So don't tell me, show me, putit in the book.
Because you don't get to like,slip a note in there and say, on
page 35, in case, you know,you weren't afraid, here's why you
(13:32):
needed to be afraid.
No.
And so, and that's one of thepurposes I serve, just, you know,
being that first, everyreader, that responsive reader.
And, and I find that mostcommercial novelists do that naturally.
They're not in it for their egos.
They're.
They're in it because theyjust love what they're doing and
(13:53):
they want to tell a story.
And if somebody says, here'show you can tell it even more effectively,
they go, okay.
Yeah, it's so funny.
That's that one little lessonthat you hear in almost every single
writing class show.
Don't tell.
Right.
It seems so basic, but it's,it's essential.
(14:13):
Yeah.
Speaking of multi genres, Ilearned February this year marked
a new horror imprint, which Igotta say, I was a little bit surprised.
1201 books.
So this was this.
This is re.
This has got my interestratcheted up to about 11.
So tell me about this creatordriven IP for books and films and
(14:38):
how you met.
Who's the cat?
Scott.
Glasgow.
Scott.
Thank you.
It's a couple of things.
Well, first of all, I havealways read and loved horror, and
I love scary movies, and Ilove being scared.
There has not been, for yearsand years and years, there has not
been a lot of horror to publish.
(14:59):
It was mostly, you know, notparticularly well written.
And then you had your giants,you know, you had Stephen King and
you had, you know, a fewothers in that category, and then.
And then everything else wasjust not that great.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure why that has changed.
But why does anything, youknow, why does romance work better
(15:22):
in one decade than another?
Why does, you know, why dopolitical thrillers work better in
one decade than another?
Or historical romance?
It is cyclical in so many waysin publishing, but for whatever reason,
there is more of it where itused to be, thin on the ground.
And then about four years ago,I bought a novel called We Used to
(15:46):
Live Here by a young guy namedMarcus Cleaver.
And his agent, Liz Parker,sold me the short story for him to
turn into a novel.
And he'd.
She'd already sold his shortstory, which had gone viral on Reddit,
to Amazon for just a lot of money.
(16:07):
So I bought the rights to theshort story for him to turn into
a novel, which he did.
And we've sold, I don't know,about 150,000 copies of it at this
point, and we haven't evendone the trade paperback.
We're hoping to get that onthe New York Times list.
And so Liz and I said, well,this was fun.
This was really, really fun.
(16:29):
And she and Scott Glasgow, theproducer, have sold a lot of IP and
he's producing a lot of IP stories.
And.
And so between the three ofus, we just kind of thought, why
don't we just, you know, whydon't we do this?
Y' all do the movie.
(16:52):
Once it's greenlit, I'll dothe book.
And that was the beginning.
Wow.
Yeah.
So Marcus's second novel iscalled the Caretaker, which is already
super scary.
And that will be the firstnovel on the 1201 list.
(17:12):
Wow.
Okay.
I got too many questions to godown too many rabbit holes, but I
do want to know, because I'm.
I'm dying to know.
What is the.
What's that magic?
The secret sauce, the through line?
The.
The.
What's the one thing that yougo, wow, this is what made me not
be able to put this book down.
(17:35):
I don't know if it is any onething, because I do publish a lot
of genres, so if you've read.
I think one thing that helpsis I do read the bestseller list
all the time.
And I do read other newfiction all the time.
And then I go back and readclassics all the time to keep my
(18:00):
senses sharp.
Because if you read a lot of Clevel novels and submissions, you'll
get a B minus and think it's a masterpiece.
Yeah, you have to keepexposing yourself to what's working
so that.
That Ping is fresh.
(18:20):
And when you get it with amanuscript, you go, I know this feeling.
I just had it when I read, et cetera.
You know, that ping, you said,I love that is that intuitive spirit
in us that goes, ooh, I don'tknow how I know, but I know that
this is a slam dunk.
(18:41):
And boy, you know, and Emily,I probably get four to six books
a week here at the Thriller Zone.
Since we've started, it'sincreased quite a bit.
And so I'm reading probablytwo books a week.
And it's so funny.
Much like yourself, I'm sure.
It used to be, oh, I'll giveit a chapter.
Then it became, I'll give it afew pages.
Now it's like, if you can'tgrab me on that first page, I'm not
(19:03):
going to turn to the second page.
Oh, I picked up one the otherday in the first paragraph.
I went, okay, I don't carewhat else is doing, honey, put dinner
on hold.
I'm going to dive into this thing.
I had lunch with an agent,Peter Lampeck, a long, long time
ago.
And at lunch he told me, Ihave this book I'm going to send
(19:24):
to you.
It's called Pirate by thisfellow named Ted Bell.
And I thought to myself atlunch, I'm buying it.
And I did.
And he was a New York Timesbestseller from the start.
That's the shortest amount oftime it ever took me to.
I was like, I'm totally buyingthis book.
Send it to me.
But I'm buying it.
(19:44):
Wow.
God rest his soul.
He.
He became such a good friendof mine.
He's such a dear guy.
I know.
Such a good guy.
Okay, all right.
You.
So you've worked across withauthors from thrillers, literary
horror.
What draws you to a story thatexamines the darker aspects of human
nature?
Like, we're always going, oh,I like the darkness of.
(20:05):
Of this kind of a person whodoes this thing.
Is there anything specific?
And then I'll jump off ofthis, but.
Or is it just again, like wejust said that Ping.
Yeah, I do like dark.
You know, I just.
I can read anything.
And I do read across all genres.
But I've had many moments inmy life where people go, yeah, that
(20:30):
was just too.
That was a bridge too far for me.
Like, you know, when hewrapped his guts around the tree
and set it on fire?
That was just too much for me.
And I'm like, you're kidding.
I loved that.
I thought that was so fun.
Oh, wow.
I'm not proud of it, but I.
I don't have any problem withthe darkness.
Okay, well, fair enough.
(20:51):
This popped into my head asecond ago.
You mentioned.
Because you mentioned romanceand such.
Is there something that'sright now that's just blazing hot
that you see?
You know, it's always trends.
Oh, this was hot then and thisis hot now.
It's.
It's middle now.
Geez.
Middle.
You're launching June for ushere in.
As we approach our fourth year.
(21:13):
Like, what's just blazing hot?
Dark romance.
Oh, so dark romance would be.
Would this be in that.
The whole gray world.
Dark because it's violent,it's dark because it's.
Many would consider it to be misogynistic.
It's dark because it's X rated and.
(21:36):
It'S selling like crazy andmommy likes it.
So I actually have a veryyoung editor working with me who
has an amusingly sharp eye fordark romance.
Because you can't fake it.
You can't just buy it becauseit's hot.
(21:57):
You have to love it already.
Sure.
And much to my shock, she,sweet little thing that she is, has
read a lot of it and does love it.
And she has an amazing eye for it.
And we have bought someincredible, incredible stuff.
And I do, even though I.
We didn't call it dark romance.
(22:18):
Then when I published you, forexample, which has been a hit series
on Amazon Prime.
Is it Amazon or Netflix?
Anyway, Amazon for years now.
We sold hundreds of thousandsof copies of that.
That was probably one of thefirst dark romances.
(22:39):
And then.
And I published 365 days, alsoa sick dark romance.
We sold so many.
And it was a huge hit serieson Netflix as well.
So even though we didn't startthe trend, I kind of feel like we
did.
(23:00):
You know what's so crazy about this?
And it shouldn't surprise me,but I've always seen you and please
take this in the best way possible.
You're so classy and I don'tknow what the word for debonair for
a guy, but elegant.
You're so.
And you have this whole air ofjust sophistication and elegance.
I remember when I saw you atThriller Fest.
(23:20):
I'm like, wow, she's so elegant.
And for some reason, don't askme why, I can't imagine seeing you
all curled up with your pups there.
Oh, she's so hot and steamy.
You go get them.
You know, it's like, how lowcan she sink, Right?
I love it.
Honestly, you know, I am hereto make money for the company.
(23:45):
Sure.
And I do, like I said, I'vealways read across all genres.
So I.
And good storytelling is goodstorytelling, you know, and if it's
not.
It's not.
But if it is, then let'spublish it and get it out there.
Yeah.
And sell it.
(24:06):
It's part of what's so funabout commercial publishing.
And it is fun, isn't it?
I mean, like, you started offthe conversation by saying what a
great job I have.
Yeah.
Before I move on to the nextquestion, give me a title of a dark,
steamy, evil romance that Ican read so that I can get an idea
(24:27):
what turns Little Miss Emily on.
Well, we are taking over thepublication of a novel called Any
Means Necessary.
Okay.
And you can buy that on Amazonnow and then in a few months it will
be.
(24:47):
We'll have taken over that publication.
And there's another.
We tried to buy this and didnot succeed because it went for too
much money.
A novel called Willing Prey,if you can imagine.
Huh.
Okay.
That, that gives me somethingto spend those late nights when.
(25:11):
Enjoy.
Honey Bear is doing some other work.
Okay.
Let's look at.
As we, you know, make our waytoward closing, publishing landscape,
we all know, has changed so much.
The houses keep shrinking or combining.
It's, you know, from digitaldisruption, social media marketing.
How do you adapt strategywhile maintaining your core mission?
(25:35):
That's going to be the firstpart of the question.
How do you keep that together?
It is a team effort where weall get together weekly for all sorts
of reasons.
And it's really about talkingabout, you know, what do we see evolving?
Oh, it looks like this hasturned into a thing.
(25:55):
Or, you know, let's just sayTikTok Book Talk wasn't a thing.
And then one day it was a thing.
And everyone's like, okay, wegotta, you know, gotta get on that
because it is always changing.
So it's really just aboutwatching the weather and adapting
and you know, publishing, it'snot the most fast paced business
(26:17):
in the world.
So there's time, you know, butyou do, you do want to watch in many
ways what we do to sell bookshasn't changed at all.
There's just not that manythings you can do to sell a book,
and there's not many.
The.
The number of readers outthere, it's not going to change overnight.
(26:39):
It's not going to go from amillion potential to 20 million potential.
So we know where they are.
We definitely know who they are.
And the main thing is to keepon top of where they're finding the
books they want to read.
And of course, the changingformat situation.
(27:00):
So no more mass markets.
Thought that would happen.
No.
And what did I just hear?
I was on a call yesterday.
We know the same person.
I'm going to leave him quietfor a second, but he said, we were
talking about I'm pitching abook right now.
And he was looking at mynotes, and I said, It's 100 to 120,000.
(27:21):
He goes, oh, you got to changethat, dude.
You got to change that right now.
I'm like, really?
He goes, oh, yeah, Whole.
Whole business system wide.
80 to 100 tops.
And I'm like, well, I didn'tknow that.
Is that right?
No.
Okay.
Friend of mine, I don't thinkyou can do that.
(27:44):
I don't think you can pigeonhole.
I personally love a good long read.
And so do a lot of other booklovers ever try to publish that way
and say, oh, can only be, youknow, this long, or, oh, it can only
be about this subject, or no, I.
I don't agree with that.
(28:05):
So, you know, I've alwayslived by this philosophy.
Fortunately, I had a greatmeteoric career when I was right
out of high school in radio,and I did that for 25 years.
And I learned one thing,Emily, way back.
I was probably 13, 14 when Istarted fantasizing I'll be back
being on the radio.
(28:26):
And I said, you know what?
There's going to be a lot ofpushback along the way, especially
when you grow up as a pk.
So I'm a preacher's kidplaying rock and roll music.
And that had its own hell of abelly wick.
But I said, you know what?
I'm going to do it my way.
I'm just going to.
I'm going to keep plowingahead until you say no.
And if you say no, I'm stillgoing to keep going unless you say
(28:47):
no.
And I can hire you for this orI can pay you well for this, and
then it changes a little bit.
But never been a big fan of,what do they call them, Rules?
Never really been that big ofa fan.
Me neither.
Yeah.
So I work on the premise that,like, If I come to you with a book
that's way too fat, I'm gonnatrust you to go, dave, I love you,
(29:12):
babe, but 190,000 words isjust too much.
You can tell the story in 120, right.
I mean, that's the process.
But I would never say, I don'twant this book because it's got too
many words in it.
Yeah.
I'll edit it and I'll say, youknow what?
(29:33):
We can put this book on a dietbecause these.
You've got material in herethat's slowing it down and it doesn't
need to.
And, you know, that's different.
But I wouldn't just go into itsaying, you know, this is the only
kind of thing I'll buy.
And if you've already.
If you can't do that for me,then I don't.
I'm not even interested.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Think about the history ofbestsellerdom and what's worked out
(29:55):
of the blue, you know, youjust can't know.
No.
And you know what?
There are books that I'vepicked up before that.
Okay.
Year.
The Locust by Terry Hayes.
Yes.
And I remember thinking.
Pat Hawkins.
Yeah.
I'm thinking to myself, terry,you're a nice guy, but 750 pages.
(30:19):
I.
There's no frigging way I'mgoing to go the distance.
But damned if I wasn't onequarter in.
And I'm like, I am not movingaway from.
I read that thing in three days.
I couldn't put it down.
Exactly.
I don't want to end.
You're sad when it's over.
Yeah.
No.
When you can take a genre andbend it a little bit and just create
(30:45):
a world that I'm like.
I've never been in.
I've never been inside thisworld quite like this.
Right.
I want to stay here.
Please don't go away.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
All right.
I am approaching my timeoutbecause you have things to do.
Two more questions.
One real quick.
My listeners would kick me inthe pants if I did not ask this.
(31:06):
Do you take submissions.
Unagented?
Well, that's a lot.
I wouldn't expect you to sayyes to that.
So let's.
Let's go.
Yes.
On both sides.
Agented and not.
Well, I'm always reading submissions.
Always, always, always.
Because I'm always looking forthe, you know, next.
(31:27):
And I'm always building up my backbench.
But it is far, far better tohave an agent for all sorts of reasons.
Just quickly.
An agent knows what editors tosend a Submission to.
And a writer doesn't know that.
And so he could be wasting his time.
One editorial department mighthave 15 editors in it, and the editor
(31:52):
who would have loved yourbook, you wouldn't know that to the
person, the wrong person,agents are like, I know the exact
right editor.
So that's why it's superimportant to get that agent.
And also, most people don'tread unagented submissions because
there's so much to read already.
(32:12):
Sure, every would be author.
I very, very.
And plus, you want somebodywatching out for your.
Well, you don't need an agentto watch out for your interest.
I'm not going to be in anyway, shape or form against the interest
of my authority, but it's justgood to have somebody officially
in your court doing thispaperwork and everything else.
(32:33):
So, yes, I'll read anunagented submission if it comes
on the recommendation ofsomebody who I know and trust.
But far and away, what I'mreading are agented submissions because
there's just not enough timein the world.
You just took the word rightout of my mouth.
I was like, who's got the timeto be able to.
(32:53):
You've already got your stack.
No telling how tall that stack is.
But you have an extra.
What's that barrier of entryby not having the representation
and the knowledge and thehistory, et cetera, et cetera.
So, yeah.
And finding.
Just a quick anecdote.
My Vince Flynn, God rest hissoul, had an agent for his first
(33:16):
novel, Term Limits, who was anonfiction agent.
And she really didn't know whoto submit to, and she submitted to
the wrong people.
And then he got a new agentwho did fiction.
She was a nonfiction agent.
He got a new agent who knewwho to send the book to.
(33:38):
And he sent it to me and Ibought it within a day or two.
And this is after two or threeyears of Vince trying to find a publisher.
But it was going to the wrong people.
So that's how important it is.
I'm having a flashback fromsixth grade when I Mrs.
(33:59):
Alfreda Scott, sixth grademath teacher, said, Mr.
Temple, a word to the wise is sufficient.
I never really fullyunderstood that, but I cannot get
it out of my head.
Okay, last question.
Being a writer yourself,having been around it your whole
career, it's just the onequestion I close all my shows with.
(34:20):
And again, this is fabulousthat you're here.
Do you have some best writing advice?
Because my audience is a wholebevy of would be writers, former
writers, current writers, onthe way writers.
What's that Best writing advice.
Oh, boy.
I don't think I have anythingnew to say.
All the smartest people in theworld have already said it.
(34:41):
But if there's one thing Inotice when a book isn't working
is if the author is notwriting what they know.
Because you can't fool people.
You can't not know about beinga doctor and then have a main character
who's a doctor.
Unless you do that deep, deep,deep research, then, okay, but you
(35:05):
gotta write what you know,whether it's from your own experience
or whether or not you've donethat deep research.
But you cannot fool readers.
Yeah.
Or maybe if it's just asincere passion that you're just
so absorbed with and you're.
Yeah, you're.
You're.
You're pulling thatinformation in, Right?
Of course.
Because, for example, Vince,back to Vince, he was not in the
(35:27):
military, he was not in theCIA, but he did so much research
that he might as well havebeen the director of the CIA.
In fact, Washington came tohim all the time to go, how did you
know that?
Because he met, he made thecontacts, he had the relationships.
He did all of that all on hisown until he, in fact, was an expert
(35:47):
and then he could write it.
But he couldn't have done itwithout that.
Well, Ms.
Basil, this has beenabsolutely divine.
I wish I was over theresitting at that dining room table.
We could just sit around andhave some tea or whatever.
But charmed, I'm sure.
Charmed, I'm sure.
Thank you so much for thisdelightful time.
(36:08):
It really has been wonderful.
Thank you.
You Very, very fun for me, too.
Thank you.
Once again, Emily Bessler.
Man, this was.
I can call this a highlight ofmy career.
We're kicking off June.
We're talking about thebusiness of book publishing.
We're nearly 300 episodes, andit's Emily Bessler of Emily Bessler
(36:31):
Books.
My day is made.
All right, now, I'm not goingto give you his name yet, but I have
at the end of this month orcloser to the end of this month,
I have another of the biggestnames in the book publishing business.
So here's what we're doing.
Yes, of course, we're talkingabout authors.
We'll have two authors on inthe next two Thursdays.
(36:51):
Thriller Thursdays, of course.
But I want to bookend Junewith two huge names in the publishing
business.
Why?
I'm interested.
Secondly, I know a lot of mylisteners are interested.
We want to write good books.
We want to get published.
We want to have a great agent.
We want to have a greatpublishing house.
We want to be in thisbusiness, Right?
(37:14):
But we got to know the business.
And these folks are going toopen the doors to some of the inside
secrets, to some of themachinations of how it all happens.
So Emily was today, anotherbig name is coming at the end of
the month.
I will tell you more very shortly.
But we have two authorscurrently that are going to be right
(37:35):
here in the middle of the month.
I'm saving Megan Abbott forour four year anniversary.
Oh, yeah, baby.
Megan Abbott is going to be onthe show in two weeks.
Before then, I'm going to haveThomas Trang.
(37:56):
Thomas is a new writer.
His book came along to me.
Hang on one second.
Here it is.
Check it out.
Dark neon dirt.
I picked this book up.
I could not put it down.
He's debut or nearly debut,which we only do one of those every
once in a while.
But the book is great.
And since we're talking aboutsince we're having show and tell,
(38:19):
here's Megan's new book, ElDorado Drive.
I just cracked it.
As Megan always does, shethrills every page.
All right.
I have spent enough timebabbling about that.
I just want to give you anidea what's coming up.
Thank you, by the way, to allthe wonderful comments that have
(38:39):
come in recently.
I have gotten some of thenicest emails ever.
You have no idea what it meansto me.
I will share them on a future show.
Anyway, you can always reachout to thethrillerzonemail.com if
you'd like to be a guest onthe show.
Swing over to our website andit's right here, thethrillerzone.com
(39:03):
register.
Fill out some information.
We'll consider you being onthe show until next time.
I'm Dave Templey, your host.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for being there.
Thanks for making June, nowalmost four years, such a pleasure
to be around.
I'll see you next time foranother edition of the Thriller Zone,
(39:25):
your number one podcast forstories that thrill the Thriller
Zone.
Hello and welcome to theThriller Zone.
I'm your host, David Temple.
And on today's.
What is it?
230th episode of the Thriller Zone.
As we kick off the month ofJune, you realize that in about two
weeks, two and a half weeks,we're going to celebrate four years
with the Thriller Zone.
(00:33):
I thought I was going to gethit 300 episodes and I got pretty
darn close.
But hey, four years, come on now.
But on today's episode, I have.
Wow.
Probably easily one of thebiggest names in the book publishing
business.
She's been educated at thebest schools, has a bachelor's degree
in English and an MA inEnglish from Columbia University.
(00:56):
After galloping through NewYork University's publishing program,
it was on to Macmillan, thenit was on to Random House and then
to Atria Pocket books.
Then in 2011, our guestfounded Emily Bessler Books where
she currently resides assenior VP and editor in chief.
That's right.
During her 16 years Simon andSchuster, Emily has published, check
(01:21):
this out.
79 New York Times bestsellers,12 number one bestsellers.
With a roster that includesfolks like John Connelly, Vince Flynn,
Brad Thor, Jodi Picoult, JackCarr, to name a few.
Our good friend.
So if you can't tell by now, Iam incredibly geeked to welcome the
(01:43):
talented, the lovely, the ohso charming Emily Bes Thriller right
here to the Thriller Zone.
Yes.
Okay, good deal.
And is that a puppy I seerunning around?
Yes, I've got two of themrunning around and they're my constant
companions and sometimesdisruptive ones.
(02:03):
That's okay.
Because if, if it weren't forthe fact that our one year old yellow
lab Sunny was not at daycare,she would be.
Aww.
Bouncing around going, dad, Iwant to be on TV too.
Oh, I know.
They're so sweet, aren't they?
There's nothing like it.
Are you kidding me?
So last time we spoke, you'renot going to remember this 2019 thriller
(02:30):
fest.
It was my first Thriller Fest.
You're bouncing through the room.
It was at the bank.
Big banquet, dinner, finale.
Yeah, some guy, what was his name?
Jack Carr or something like that.
I was in love with people.
Oh, yeah.
And you bounced through and Iwas like, emily.
And you're like, hi, I don'tknow who you are, but we're going
(02:50):
this way.
Well, yes, that was a.
That was a lot of people.
That was a lot of people.
And that was.
It wasn't quite the cusp, butit was cusp adjacent for him very
much.
Talking about blowing up.
I know.
And he was so thrilled to be there.
(03:10):
And he still is so thrilled.
You know, it's all been a bigadventure for him, which is really
fun to see.
Isn't it nice when you find aguy who A, has lived it, B, loves
it, C, writes about it, and D,most importantly, is still the same
guy that he was when it all started?
Yeah, it's huge.
That makes it all worthwhile.
(03:33):
And I think, you know, alsoone of the keys to success, you know,
because he really, reallycares about his readers and he really
cares about doing the best jobpossible and doing impeccable research
and, you know, he's justunjaded by it all.
Yeah, that's gotta be a toughlittle road to hoe because you've
(03:58):
been at this a couple of years.
Few years, few decades, and itwould be hard for you not to be jaded,
I would think, with the waythat the business is rolled this
way and the other.
Yeah, a lot of changes.
Right.
You know, it's all.
It never gets any less fun.
I just feel as if I'm reallyso lucky to have the job I have.
(04:23):
And you know, every job hasits ups and its downs, but I just
feel so lucky that on a day today basis I just get to spend my
time talking to reallyinteresting, creative people and
reading and talking aboutstorylines and, you know, and helping
to make people's dreams come true.
(04:46):
That right there.
Yeah.
Making people's dreams come true.
I mean, think about how manypeople in the world can say that,
you.
Know, it's extremelysatisfying and, and also always inspiring
to me how many people thereare out there in the world writing
books.
(05:07):
It's so cool to me.
Yeah.
I saw a, A stat.
I'm not going to remember itright now because I'm on the, on
the bubble here, but I saw astat on how many books are being
released, released on anygiven day.
And I was like, that can'tpossibly be, but it is.
Yeah.
All those stories in people'sheads, which just tells me.
(05:30):
Tells us, does it not, Emily,that as long as there's somebody
breathing, there's somebodywho wants to read a good story.
I want to make sure that I.
I've got a couple of questions.
I'll make them easy.
They're.
They're all softballs.
I promise I won't be hard onyou, but there's a.
There's a couple of things.
I had been thinking about this.
(05:51):
You know, I, I've beendreaming about this for some time.
So for you to take the time tospend time.
Thriller Zone is.
It's an honor and a pleasure.
Can I just say that?
Well, thank you so much.
I feel the same.
Thank you.
Well, I want to know, becausewe're talking.
We started off with Jack Carr.
What makes like that long termauthor editor partnership so successful?
(06:12):
I, I know there's a lot ofelements, but just like, what's that
key strand that pulls it all together?
I mean, imagine it's differentfor, for different people, but I
think for my authors, theyknow that I am 100% on their side
and I'm always going torepresent their interest, the company,
(06:34):
and I'm always going to tellthem the truth.
And if it's bad, then we'll besad together.
If it's good, then we'll behappy together.
I feel as if the agent and theauthor and myself, we're, you know,
we're the central, we're thecore and no one cares or could ever
(06:55):
care more than us.
Wow.
Yeah.
Then it moves out from thereto, you know, a great publishing
team, great marketing team,great publicity team, all of that.
But I, you know, I, I thinkthe main thing is my authors know
how much I care and that I'msticking with them.
I'm not going anywhere.
You know, we're building this together.
(07:17):
I know how talented they areand if things aren't working out,
it's not their fault.
You know, might not be myfault either, or our fault, but it's
not their fault.
They've done their job.
And our job is to keep pushingand never give up.
Nice.
Never give up.
I'm going to ask a questionthat I would.
That came to my mind as I wasmaking notes and I'm going to look
(07:40):
like a complete idiot, but I'mokay with that because it happens
from time to time, Emily.
But I'm like, okay, Simon and Schuster.
She works with Simon and Schuster.
But I'm like, I've alwaysknown you as Emily Bessler Book.
So you have that imprint.
So help me understand, likeI'm a 10 year old, how that structure
works.
(08:00):
Well, of course there's thelarger Simon and Schuster, and then
in Simon and Schuster thereare a number of imprints, such as
Scribner, the children'sdivision, Free Press.
Well, not Free Press anymore,Little Simon.
Atria.
And so within the Atriaimprint is nested Emily Bessler Books.
(08:26):
Got it?
Yes.
And I work with the Atriapublicity and marketing and advertising
and then the wider sales forcefor all of Simon and Schuster.
But Emily Bessler Books is Teeny.
It's me and two senior editorsand my assistant.
So that's, that's who we are.
(08:49):
Girlfriend, if I may say that.
It may be teeny, but it's powerful.
I mean, come on now, after.
Okay, so after 79, 80 New YorkTimes bestsellers, is that about.
About.
Right, right.
It begs the question, youknow, what drives your eye for discovering
(09:10):
that best selling talent?
You know, what is that driving force?
And what patterns do you seein authors that tend to just break
through all the noise?
So it's kind of a two part question.
I have always said that Ireally am middle America.
I grew up in a small town inMartinsville, Virginia.
(09:33):
I grew up buying books at thegrocery store with my mom.
There were no bookstores.
I checked out books from thelibrary, so.
And I read everything.
And so then I came to collegein New York City.
But I've never left thathistory behind.
(09:55):
So I've never.
I'm not dwelling in some sortof intellectual ivory tower.
If I really, really likesomething and I have read a bazillion
books because that's what I dofor fun.
Not just for work, but for fun.
And I'm never not reading.
And I think if I likesomething, so are a lot of other
(10:18):
people going to.
Because I am middle America.
So I have that faith, I havethat knowledge in myself.
If I'm loving something, itcan't be that crazy, right?
Because that's not what mybackground is.
I'm not trying to prove anything.
I'm not coming from somestrange angle.
(10:38):
I'm just, I'm every reader.
Well, I just realized that wehave a little something in common.
Martinsville, home of theMartinsville Speedway.
I'm from Lynchburg.
Oh, no way.
Oh, I love Lynchburg.
It's a great town.
Yes.
City of Seven Hills.
Oh, my gosh.
(11:00):
All right, I've got another.
This is kind of philosophy.
When you're working withauthors across different genres,
and I know that you're kindof, you're, you're branching even
more.
So which we're going to coverhere in a second.
How do you balance, or do you.
Well, you have to balancecommercial appeal with literary quality
(11:20):
because you, you impress me asbeing very literary fiction savvy.
However, you do have to, youknow, the bills have got to be paid,
so the light stay on.
So it's commercial appeal, too.
Yes, definitely.
So how do you, you know, howdo you do that working among two
different, multiple genres?
Well, I mean, it's a couple of things.
(11:40):
There's that storytelling Magic.
A natural born storyteller hasa magical ability that nobody can
replicate.
And they may tell a story inthe most beautiful prose in the world,
or they may tell it in alittle more of a simple style.
(12:02):
But whatever that magic isthat, you know, thousands of years
ago made everybody gatheraround the fire to listen to the
tribe storyteller.
That's what that is.
And it's magic.
And you cannot fake it.
And if you can recognize it.
And I think again, if you'veread enough and loved enough books
(12:25):
and paid attention, just likeany reader picks up a book and says,
oh my God, I can't stopreading this thing.
Yeah.
So that's what it is.
And I think for those whosucceed, you have to be able to revise,
you have to be able to take suggestions.
Those authors who do not enjoythe editorial relationship and the
(12:49):
back and the fourth, they tendnot to.
Now, I'm only talking aboutcommercial fiction and nonfiction,
but that relationship, I thinkis key to an author's success.
Because, you know, forexample, as I have said to many an
author, okay, you're tellingme what you meant and you're telling
(13:12):
me what I should be thinking.
But you don't get to tellevery reader who buys your book this.
So don't tell me, show me, putit in the book.
Because you don't get to like,slip a note in there and say, on
page 35, in case, you know,you weren't afraid, here's why you
(13:32):
needed to be afraid.
No.
And so, and that's one of thepurposes I serve, just, you know,
being that first, everyreader, that responsive reader.
And, and I find that mostcommercial novelists do that naturally.
They're not in it for their egos.
They're.
They're in it because theyjust love what they're doing and
(13:53):
they want to tell a story.
And if somebody says, here'show you can tell it even more effectively,
they go, okay.
Yeah, it's so funny.
That's that one little lessonthat you hear in almost every single
writing class show.
Don't tell.
Right.
It seems so basic, but it's,it's essential.
(14:13):
Yeah.
Speaking of multi genres, Ilearned February this year marked
a new horror imprint, which Igotta say, I was a little bit surprised.
1201 books.
So this was this.
This is re.
This has got my interestratcheted up to about 11.
So tell me about this creatordriven IP for books and films and
(14:38):
how you met.
Who's the cat?
Scott.
Glasgow.
Scott.
Thank you.
It's a couple of things.
Well, first of all, I havealways read and loved horror, and
I love scary movies, and Ilove being scared.
There has not been, for yearsand years and years, there has not
been a lot of horror to publish.
(14:59):
It was mostly, you know, notparticularly well written.
And then you had your giants,you know, you had Stephen King and
you had, you know, a fewothers in that category, and then.
And then everything else wasjust not that great.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure why that has changed.
But why does anything, youknow, why does romance work better
(15:22):
in one decade than another?
Why does, you know, why dopolitical thrillers work better in
one decade than another?
Or historical romance?
It is cyclical in so many waysin publishing, but for whatever reason,
there is more of it where itused to be, thin on the ground.
And then about four years ago,I bought a novel called We Used to
(15:46):
Live Here by a young guy namedMarcus Cleaver.
And his agent, Liz Parker,sold me the short story for him to
turn into a novel.
And he'd.
She'd already sold his shortstory, which had gone viral on Reddit,
to Amazon for just a lot of money.
(16:07):
So I bought the rights to theshort story for him to turn into
a novel, which he did.
And we've sold, I don't know,about 150,000 copies of it at this
point, and we haven't evendone the trade paperback.
We're hoping to get that onthe New York Times list.
And so Liz and I said, well,this was fun.
This was really, really fun.
(16:29):
And she and Scott Glasgow, theproducer, have sold a lot of IP and
he's producing a lot of IP stories.
And.
And so between the three ofus, we just kind of thought, why
don't we just, you know, whydon't we do this?
Y' all do the movie.
(16:52):
Once it's greenlit, I'll dothe book.
And that was the beginning.
Wow.
Yeah.
So Marcus's second novel iscalled the Caretaker, which is already
super scary.
And that will be the firstnovel on the 1201 list.
(17:12):
Wow.
Okay.
I got too many questions to godown too many rabbit holes, but I
do want to know, because I'm.
I'm dying to know.
What is the.
What's that magic?
The secret sauce, the through line?
The.
The.
What's the one thing that yougo, wow, this is what made me not
be able to put this book down.
(17:35):
I don't know if it is any onething, because I do publish a lot
of genres, so if you've read.
I think one thing that helpsis I do read the bestseller list
all the time.
And I do read other newfiction all the time.
And then I go back and readclassics all the time to keep my
(18:00):
senses sharp.
Because if you read a lot of Clevel novels and submissions, you'll
get a B minus and think it's a masterpiece.
Yeah, you have to keepexposing yourself to what's working
so that.
That Ping is fresh.
(18:20):
And when you get it with amanuscript, you go, I know this feeling.
I just had it when I read, et cetera.
You know, that ping, you said,I love that is that intuitive spirit
in us that goes, ooh, I don'tknow how I know, but I know that
this is a slam dunk.
(18:41):
And boy, you know, and Emily,I probably get four to six books
a week here at the Thriller Zone.
Since we've started, it'sincreased quite a bit.
And so I'm reading probablytwo books a week.
And it's so funny.
Much like yourself, I'm sure.
It used to be, oh, I'll giveit a chapter.
Then it became, I'll give it afew pages.
Now it's like, if you can'tgrab me on that first page, I'm not
(19:03):
going to turn to the second page.
Oh, I picked up one the otherday in the first paragraph.
I went, okay, I don't carewhat else is doing, honey, put dinner
on hold.
I'm going to dive into this thing.
I had lunch with an agent,Peter Lampeck, a long, long time
ago.
And at lunch he told me, Ihave this book I'm going to send
(19:24):
to you.
It's called Pirate by thisfellow named Ted Bell.
And I thought to myself atlunch, I'm buying it.
And I did.
And he was a New York Timesbestseller from the start.
That's the shortest amount oftime it ever took me to.
I was like, I'm totally buyingthis book.
Send it to me.
But I'm buying it.
(19:44):
Wow.
God rest his soul.
He.
He became such a good friendof mine.
He's such a dear guy.
I know.
Such a good guy.
Okay, all right.
You.
So you've worked across withauthors from thrillers, literary
horror.
What draws you to a story thatexamines the darker aspects of human
nature?
Like, we're always going, oh,I like the darkness of.
(20:05):
Of this kind of a person whodoes this thing.
Is there anything specific?
And then I'll jump off ofthis, but.
Or is it just again, like wejust said that Ping.
Yeah, I do like dark.
You know, I just.
I can read anything.
And I do read across all genres.
But I've had many moments inmy life where people go, yeah, that
(20:30):
was just too.
That was a bridge too far for me.
Like, you know, when hewrapped his guts around the tree
and set it on fire?
That was just too much for me.
And I'm like, you're kidding.
I loved that.
I thought that was so fun.
Oh, wow.
I'm not proud of it, but I.
I don't have any problem withthe darkness.
Okay, well, fair enough.
(20:51):
This popped into my head asecond ago.
You mentioned.
Because you mentioned romanceand such.
Is there something that'sright now that's just blazing hot
that you see?
You know, it's always trends.
Oh, this was hot then and thisis hot now.
It's.
It's middle now.
Geez.
Middle.
You're launching June for ushere in.
As we approach our fourth year.
(21:13):
Like, what's just blazing hot?
Dark romance.
Oh, so dark romance would be.
Would this be in that.
The whole gray world.
Dark because it's violent,it's dark because it's.
Many would consider it to be misogynistic.
It's dark because it's X rated and.
(21:36):
It'S selling like crazy andmommy likes it.
So I actually have a veryyoung editor working with me who
has an amusingly sharp eye fordark romance.
Because you can't fake it.
You can't just buy it becauseit's hot.
(21:57):
You have to love it already.
Sure.
And much to my shock, she,sweet little thing that she is, has
read a lot of it and does love it.
And she has an amazing eye for it.
And we have bought someincredible, incredible stuff.
And I do, even though I.
We didn't call it dark romance.
(22:18):
Then when I published you, forexample, which has been a hit series
on Amazon Prime.
Is it Amazon or Netflix?
Anyway, Amazon for years now.
We sold hundreds of thousandsof copies of that.
That was probably one of thefirst dark romances.
(22:39):
And then.
And I published 365 days, alsoa sick dark romance.
We sold so many.
And it was a huge hit serieson Netflix as well.
So even though we didn't startthe trend, I kind of feel like we
did.
(23:00):
You know what's so crazy about this?
And it shouldn't surprise me,but I've always seen you and please
take this in the best way possible.
You're so classy and I don'tknow what the word for debonair for
a guy, but elegant.
You're so.
And you have this whole air ofjust sophistication and elegance.
I remember when I saw you atThriller Fest.
(23:20):
I'm like, wow, she's so elegant.
And for some reason, don't askme why, I can't imagine seeing you
all curled up with your pups there.
Oh, she's so hot and steamy.
You go get them.
You know, it's like, how lowcan she sink, Right?
I love it.
Honestly, you know, I am hereto make money for the company.
(23:45):
Sure.
And I do, like I said, I'vealways read across all genres.
So I.
And good storytelling is goodstorytelling, you know, and if it's
not.
It's not.
But if it is, then let'spublish it and get it out there.
Yeah.
And sell it.
(24:06):
It's part of what's so funabout commercial publishing.
And it is fun, isn't it?
I mean, like, you started offthe conversation by saying what a
great job I have.
Yeah.
Before I move on to the nextquestion, give me a title of a dark,
steamy, evil romance that Ican read so that I can get an idea
(24:27):
what turns Little Miss Emily on.
Well, we are taking over thepublication of a novel called Any
Means Necessary.
Okay.
And you can buy that on Amazonnow and then in a few months it will
be.
(24:47):
We'll have taken over that publication.
And there's another.
We tried to buy this and didnot succeed because it went for too
much money.
A novel called Willing Prey,if you can imagine.
Huh.
Okay.
That, that gives me somethingto spend those late nights when.
(25:11):
Enjoy.
Honey Bear is doing some other work.
Okay.
Let's look at.
As we, you know, make our waytoward closing, publishing landscape,
we all know, has changed so much.
The houses keep shrinking or combining.
It's, you know, from digitaldisruption, social media marketing.
How do you adapt strategywhile maintaining your core mission?
(25:35):
That's going to be the firstpart of the question.
How do you keep that together?
It is a team effort where weall get together weekly for all sorts
of reasons.
And it's really about talkingabout, you know, what do we see evolving?
Oh, it looks like this hasturned into a thing.
(25:55):
Or, you know, let's just sayTikTok Book Talk wasn't a thing.
And then one day it was a thing.
And everyone's like, okay, wegotta, you know, gotta get on that
because it is always changing.
So it's really just aboutwatching the weather and adapting
and you know, publishing, it'snot the most fast paced business
(26:17):
in the world.
So there's time, you know, butyou do, you do want to watch in many
ways what we do to sell bookshasn't changed at all.
There's just not that manythings you can do to sell a book,
and there's not many.
The.
The number of readers outthere, it's not going to change overnight.
(26:39):
It's not going to go from amillion potential to 20 million potential.
So we know where they are.
We definitely know who they are.
And the main thing is to keepon top of where they're finding the
books they want to read.
And of course, the changingformat situation.
(27:00):
So no more mass markets.
Thought that would happen.
No.
And what did I just hear?
I was on a call yesterday.
We know the same person.
I'm going to leave him quietfor a second, but he said, we were
talking about I'm pitching abook right now.
And he was looking at mynotes, and I said, It's 100 to 120,000.
(27:21):
He goes, oh, you got to changethat, dude.
You got to change that right now.
I'm like, really?
He goes, oh, yeah, Whole.
Whole business system wide.
80 to 100 tops.
And I'm like, well, I didn'tknow that.
Is that right?
No.
Okay.
Friend of mine, I don't thinkyou can do that.
(27:44):
I don't think you can pigeonhole.
I personally love a good long read.
And so do a lot of other booklovers ever try to publish that way
and say, oh, can only be, youknow, this long, or, oh, it can only
be about this subject, or no, I.
I don't agree with that.
(28:05):
So, you know, I've alwayslived by this philosophy.
Fortunately, I had a greatmeteoric career when I was right
out of high school in radio,and I did that for 25 years.
And I learned one thing,Emily, way back.
I was probably 13, 14 when Istarted fantasizing I'll be back
being on the radio.
(28:26):
And I said, you know what?
There's going to be a lot ofpushback along the way, especially
when you grow up as a pk.
So I'm a preacher's kidplaying rock and roll music.
And that had its own hell of abelly wick.
But I said, you know what?
I'm going to do it my way.
I'm just going to.
I'm going to keep plowingahead until you say no.
And if you say no, I'm stillgoing to keep going unless you say
(28:47):
no.
And I can hire you for this orI can pay you well for this, and
then it changes a little bit.
But never been a big fan of,what do they call them, Rules?
Never really been that big ofa fan.
Me neither.
Yeah.
So I work on the premise that,like, If I come to you with a book
that's way too fat, I'm gonnatrust you to go, dave, I love you,
(29:12):
babe, but 190,000 words isjust too much.
You can tell the story in 120, right.
I mean, that's the process.
But I would never say, I don'twant this book because it's got too
many words in it.
Yeah.
I'll edit it and I'll say, youknow what?
(29:33):
We can put this book on a dietbecause these.
You've got material in herethat's slowing it down and it doesn't
need to.
And, you know, that's different.
But I wouldn't just go into itsaying, you know, this is the only
kind of thing I'll buy.
And if you've already.
If you can't do that for me,then I don't.
I'm not even interested.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Think about the history ofbestsellerdom and what's worked out
(29:55):
of the blue, you know, youjust can't know.
No.
And you know what?
There are books that I'vepicked up before that.
Okay.
Year.
The Locust by Terry Hayes.
Yes.
And I remember thinking.
Pat Hawkins.
Yeah.
I'm thinking to myself, terry,you're a nice guy, but 750 pages.
(30:19):
I.
There's no frigging way I'mgoing to go the distance.
But damned if I wasn't onequarter in.
And I'm like, I am not movingaway from.
I read that thing in three days.
I couldn't put it down.
Exactly.
I don't want to end.
You're sad when it's over.
Yeah.
No.
When you can take a genre andbend it a little bit and just create
(30:45):
a world that I'm like.
I've never been in.
I've never been inside thisworld quite like this.
Right.
I want to stay here.
Please don't go away.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
All right.
I am approaching my timeoutbecause you have things to do.
Two more questions.
One real quick.
My listeners would kick me inthe pants if I did not ask this.
(31:06):
Do you take submissions.
Unagented?
Well, that's a lot.
I wouldn't expect you to sayyes to that.
So let's.
Let's go.
Yes.
On both sides.
Agented and not.
Well, I'm always reading submissions.
Always, always, always.
Because I'm always looking forthe, you know, next.
(31:27):
And I'm always building up my backbench.
But it is far, far better tohave an agent for all sorts of reasons.
Just quickly.
An agent knows what editors tosend a Submission to.
And a writer doesn't know that.
And so he could be wasting his time.
One editorial department mighthave 15 editors in it, and the editor
(31:52):
who would have loved yourbook, you wouldn't know that to the
person, the wrong person,agents are like, I know the exact
right editor.
So that's why it's superimportant to get that agent.
And also, most people don'tread unagented submissions because
there's so much to read already.
(32:12):
Sure, every would be author.
I very, very.
And plus, you want somebodywatching out for your.
Well, you don't need an agentto watch out for your interest.
I'm not going to be in anyway, shape or form against the interest
of my authority, but it's justgood to have somebody officially
in your court doing thispaperwork and everything else.
(32:33):
So, yes, I'll read anunagented submission if it comes
on the recommendation ofsomebody who I know and trust.
But far and away, what I'mreading are agented submissions because
there's just not enough timein the world.
You just took the word rightout of my mouth.
I was like, who's got the timeto be able to.
(32:53):
You've already got your stack.
No telling how tall that stack is.
But you have an extra.
What's that barrier of entryby not having the representation
and the knowledge and thehistory, et cetera, et cetera.
So, yeah.
And finding.
Just a quick anecdote.
My Vince Flynn, God rest hissoul, had an agent for his first
(33:16):
novel, Term Limits, who was anonfiction agent.
And she really didn't know whoto submit to, and she submitted to
the wrong people.
And then he got a new agentwho did fiction.
She was a nonfiction agent.
He got a new agent who knewwho to send the book to.
(33:38):
And he sent it to me and Ibought it within a day or two.
And this is after two or threeyears of Vince trying to find a publisher.
But it was going to the wrong people.
So that's how important it is.
I'm having a flashback fromsixth grade when I Mrs.
(33:59):
Alfreda Scott, sixth grademath teacher, said, Mr.
Temple, a word to the wise is sufficient.
I never really fullyunderstood that, but I cannot get
it out of my head.
Okay, last question.
Being a writer yourself,having been around it your whole
career, it's just the onequestion I close all my shows with.
(34:20):
And again, this is fabulousthat you're here.
Do you have some best writing advice?
Because my audience is a wholebevy of would be writers, former
writers, current writers, onthe way writers.
What's that Best writing advice.
Oh, boy.
I don't think I have anythingnew to say.
All the smartest people in theworld have already said it.
(34:41):
But if there's one thing Inotice when a book isn't working
is if the author is notwriting what they know.
Because you can't fool people.
You can't not know about beinga doctor and then have a main character
who's a doctor.
Unless you do that deep, deep,deep research, then, okay, but you
(35:05):
gotta write what you know,whether it's from your own experience
or whether or not you've donethat deep research.
But you cannot fool readers.
Yeah.
Or maybe if it's just asincere passion that you're just
so absorbed with and you're.
Yeah, you're.
You're.
You're pulling thatinformation in, Right?
Of course.
Because, for example, Vince,back to Vince, he was not in the
(35:27):
military, he was not in theCIA, but he did so much research
that he might as well havebeen the director of the CIA.
In fact, Washington came tohim all the time to go, how did you
know that?
Because he met, he made thecontacts, he had the relationships.
He did all of that all on hisown until he, in fact, was an expert
(35:47):
and then he could write it.
But he couldn't have done itwithout that.
Well, Ms.
Basil, this has beenabsolutely divine.
I wish I was over theresitting at that dining room table.
We could just sit around andhave some tea or whatever.
But charmed, I'm sure.
Charmed, I'm sure.
Thank you so much for thisdelightful time.
(36:08):
It really has been wonderful.
Thank you.
You Very, very fun for me, too.
Thank you.
Once again, Emily Bessler.
Man, this was.
I can call this a highlight ofmy career.
We're kicking off June.
We're talking about thebusiness of book publishing.
We're nearly 300 episodes, andit's Emily Bessler of Emily Bessler
(36:31):
Books.
My day is made.
All right, now, I'm not goingto give you his name yet, but I have
at the end of this month orcloser to the end of this month,
I have another of the biggestnames in the book publishing business.
So here's what we're doing.
Yes, of course, we're talkingabout authors.
We'll have two authors on inthe next two Thursdays.
(36:51):
Thriller Thursdays, of course.
But I want to bookend Junewith two huge names in the publishing
business.
Why?
I'm interested.
Secondly, I know a lot of mylisteners are interested.
We want to write good books.
We want to get published.
We want to have a great agent.
We want to have a greatpublishing house.
We want to be in thisbusiness, Right?
(37:14):
But we got to know the business.
And these folks are going toopen the doors to some of the inside
secrets, to some of themachinations of how it all happens.
So Emily was today, anotherbig name is coming at the end of
the month.
I will tell you more very shortly.
But we have two authorscurrently that are going to be right
(37:35):
here in the middle of the month.
I'm saving Megan Abbott forour four year anniversary.
Oh, yeah, baby.
Megan Abbott is going to be onthe show in two weeks.
Before then, I'm going to haveThomas Trang.
(37:56):
Thomas is a new writer.
His book came along to me.
Hang on one second.
Here it is.
Check it out.
Dark neon dirt.
I picked this book up.
I could not put it down.
He's debut or nearly debut,which we only do one of those every
once in a while.
But the book is great.
And since we're talking aboutsince we're having show and tell,
(38:19):
here's Megan's new book, ElDorado Drive.
I just cracked it.
As Megan always does, shethrills every page.
All right.
I have spent enough timebabbling about that.
I just want to give you anidea what's coming up.
Thank you, by the way, to allthe wonderful comments that have
(38:39):
come in recently.
I have gotten some of thenicest emails ever.
You have no idea what it meansto me.
I will share them on a future show.
Anyway, you can always reachout to thethrillerzonemail.com if
you'd like to be a guest onthe show.
Swing over to our website andit's right here, thethrillerzone.com
(39:03):
register.
Fill out some information.
We'll consider you being onthe show until next time.
I'm Dave Templey, your host.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for being there.
Thanks for making June, nowalmost four years, such a pleasure
to be around.
I'll see you next time foranother edition of the Thriller Zone,
(39:25):
your number one podcast forstories that thrill the Thriller
Zone.
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