July 2, 2025 • 45 mins
On today's 234th episode of The Thriller Zone, host Dave Temple sits down with Rachel Howzell Hall for a return performance to discuss her latest thriller FOG AND FURY.
As always, Rachel is a superb guest, and she provides insights and instincts like few other writers. There's a reason she's atop the best-selling charts!
Fog and Fury is the star of today’s show, and trust me, you won’t want to miss this conversation! Rachel our fantastic guest and prolific author, is back to chat about her new thriller that feels like both a fresh start and a cozy return to familiar vibes.
We're diving into the heart of her latest protagonist, who navigates a world of moral ambiguity and emotional depth, all while dealing with the foggy complexities of life in a small town. With a mix of personal anecdotes and insights into her writing process, Rachel shares how her characters come to life, reflecting the intricate layers of human experience.
So, grab your favorite beverage and settle in, because we’re about to embark on a thrilling journey filled with laughs, deep thoughts, and a sprinkle of literary magic and...
Thanks for joining us here in Season 9!
Learn more at RachelHowzell.com and follow us at TheThrillerZone.com
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we celebrate Season Nine of the Thriller Zone and dive into the fascinating world of author Rachel Housel Hall, who has a new book titled 'Fog and Fury'.
- Rachel Housel Hall shares her excitement about writing, revealing how her latest book feels like both a departure and a comfort zone at the same time, showcasing her unique style.
- The conversation touches on Rachel's personal journey through her writing career, including her experiences with illness and how they influenced her storytelling approach.
- Listeners get a peek into the research process behind 'Fog and Fury', as Rachel explains the importance of understanding small town dynamics and the intricacies of real estate development.
- We discuss the significance of character development in thrillers, emphasizing Rachel's commitment to creating multi-dimensional characters who grapple with moral ambiguity and personal struggles.
- The episode wraps up with some quick-fire questions, where Rachel emphasizes that the key to writing is simply to put your butt in the seat and write every day, no matter what.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Scripps
- Cedars
- UCLA
- Blackstone
- Thomas and Mercer
KEYWORDS: Fog and Fury, Rachel Housel Hall, thriller podcast, writing advice, character development, suspense novels, psychological thrillers, small town mysteries, literary interviews, storytelling techniques, book covers, author interviews, crime fiction, literary inspiration, writing process, plot twists, book recommendations, literary voice, publishing industry insights, first-person narratives
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Hello there.
Your host Dave Temple here foranother edition of the Thriller Zone
where we are now celebratingseason nine.
Man, I am so excited.
What does that relate to?
(00:21):
We're down to what episode 234and today's guest is someone who
has been on the show.
We found out two years agothis week what never happened was
that book.
Now she's got a new one.
Fog and Fury.
Check out that cover, will ya?
Look at that.
That is some kind of gorgeous.
Rachel Housel hall is on theshow today.
(00:42):
Have you ever wondered howmany books she's written?
Well, let me tell you something.
Land of Shadows, guys of Ash,Trail of Echoes, City of Saviors,
they all fall down and nowshe's gone.
These toxic things we lie here.
What never happened.
What fire brings the last one.
And now fog and fury.
This gal is busy.
And this, this particular bookfeels like almost at one time a departure,
(01:05):
one time something brand newand at the same time comfortable
as well worn shoes.
Either way you're going toenjoy and you're going to love this
conversation.
I always have fun with Rachel.
So let's get into it on theThriller Zone.
All looking fancy with yourlittle cook.
How are you?
(01:26):
It's amazing how many peoplementioned your little cup.
It's.
You know why I drink in alittle cup?
Because if.
If I drink in a big one, Ijust drink too much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And this is about nowadays.
Is that ever a problem?
You look f.
(01:47):
Maybe we should.
You look fantastic.
Might I say I came back from vacation.
It was vacation.
We went to.
We went to Atlantis, Bahamas.
Yeah.
And we got back Thursday nightand I did not.
And I'm.
I'm back at my day job andit's like.
Oh man.
(02:09):
How long were you gone?
From the 19th until Thursday.
It was wonderful.
It was absolutely wonderful.
It was so perfect.
The food was beautiful, thepeople were warm.
It was.
Yeah.
So I still have that just fromvacation glow.
(02:31):
Check me next week and I'll bescowling again.
Yeah, I wish I could market that.
Yeah, right.
We can make a fortune,couldn't we?
Yes.
Yes we could.
Yes we could.
How's this?
Just in modeling that justrelaxed glow.
It's Rachel hall.
That's me.
And I need a little soundtrackbehind it.
(02:52):
Something light and tinkly.
Yeah.
No, I'm good.
Life is good.
It's.
I am.
By the way, you're my first orsecond episode somewhere around there
of a season nine.
Holy.
Has it been that long?
Girlfriend?
Can I say that by the way youwere here two years ago this week.
(03:15):
Wow.
And that was 138.
That would have been.
That would have been season five.
We're now in season nine.
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
It doesn't seem like that long.
Oh, you look great.
Well, thank you.
I mean, since I've seen you,I've gone through prostate cancer.
Oh, wow.
How are you doing?
(03:36):
I'm great.
I had the.
I had a.
I had a surgery.
I had radiation.
I had.
Were you seeking treatment?
Where did you have treatment?
Where?
Scripps.
Okay.
Yeah.
Wait, you're down in San Diego?
Yes, ma' am.
I thought.
Wait a minute.
What?
I thought you were up here.
(03:57):
Why didn't you think you wereup here?
Well, I have a studio up therethat we sometimes.
In Glendale.
In Glendale.
When we can arrange for a sit down.
But I only, I, I piggyback onsomebody else's studio.
It's, it's not my own.
Okay.
Truth be told.
So.
Yeah.
(04:17):
Okay.
That's.
I did not expect you to say scripts.
I'm like, I know scripts.
And that's not.
Because I expected you to sayCedars, ucla.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
If, if it, if I were inGlendale, you and I would be sitting
there breathing the samerighteous air.
It was always hard for me to.
Because I, and I work forCedars and.
(04:38):
Yeah.
And so, like, I have, like a career.
Career.
And I just had my one on onesand now I'm slotting this in because.
Yeah, that was why it wasalways hard, because.
It's okay.
It's all good.
It's all good.
Well, I'm glad you, you're,you're recovering.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
It's.
Yeah.
I, I, it is zero.
(04:58):
And I'm good and I'm feelingalmost better than ever.
And.
Yeah, it's.
I am going to take a littletime off of the summer, which, as
you should.
I worked all the way throughthe cancer surgery, so I'm like,
why did I.
My wife said, well, you know what?
As a survivor, I did the same.
You know, I, I was pregnant atthe same time.
And, you know, they give youthe three days and then I was back
(05:21):
at work.
I think, I think it has to dowith control.
It's like, this is normal.
My work life is normal.
I can control it.
I don't have to think aboutwhat's actually happening to me.
And so I don't want to just.
But you look back, it's like,well, why was I rushing to get back
to.
But that's what it is.
It's.
It's A sense of.
(05:41):
You're seeking normalcy.
Yeah.
And I don't know, Rachel, whatI think about that.
I think normalcy is good.
Of course.
But I.
You and I are both pretty driven.
I've followed your career.
I mean, you're.
You're clocking a nice, tidydozen books.
And.
Yeah.
Your work ethic is unmatched.
And I know that it.
(06:03):
You're right.
You said it's.
It's control.
It's feeling.
What's the word that I'malways feeling?
Valid.
You know?
And so my wife says, can I askyou something?
I'm like, well, she goes, whydo you work so hard?
You're not getting paid for this.
I'm like, well, I don't.
I don't have any other switch,but full on.
(06:25):
There's no.
There's no drop feed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, we are.
We are from the same.
Same tribe, but it's like, forvacation, I actually left my laptop.
I didn't do anything.
I read and didn't do anything,but that's, like the only week in
(06:45):
my.
In my year that I do that now.
Can I ask what you were reading?
Was it fiction or nonfiction?
Nonfiction.
I always read nonfiction.
Well, but then I started.
Wait.
When I read Richard Prestonbook Demon in the Freezer, which
he published right beforeCOVID And then I started reading
(07:07):
the Spaceship, the SpaceShuttle, the Challenger book.
Nonfiction.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Usually it's a shipwreck book,but there were no shipwreck books
this year.
Like, last year, I read DavidGran's on the Wager, so I like nonfiction.
(07:27):
When.
When I'm on vacation, I'm with you.
I don't have to think about the.
Tricks, you know, I don't have to.
I'm going to find thatloophole there somewhere.
Come on now.
Right, right.
So, nonfiction.
I can never write a book aboutSpace Shuttle Challenger, you know,
so I can actually just enjoy it.
But, yeah, we're very similar.
Yeah.
(07:47):
I just like to be learningsomething all the time.
All the time.
All the time.
We were in the hotel room,and, you know when you're in another
country, the channels are on.
Yeah.
And I found the HistoryChannel, and it was about.
Oh, my gosh, Dillinger.
Oh, yeah.
And everybody was asleep, andI'm like, ooh, John Dillinger.
And then there was going to beanother one, another random one.
(08:10):
And I told my husband, it'slike, if you want to watch something
else, take the remote.
But I can sit here and watch,you know, History's Mysteries, like,
all day.
And be fascinated by it.
So.
Yeah, yeah, we'd be learning stuff.
That should be a T shirt.
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
(08:32):
Hey, by the way, I always liketo start out with this, with the
COVID and Rachel, this thingis so beautiful.
They are incredible with covers.
And you saw the.
Do you have.
Wait, you don't have the, thehardcover yet, do you, do you have
the hardcover?
So the make it book has.
(08:53):
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't even see that.
Uh huh.
On all my Thomas and Mercertitles, if you take off the dust,
the dust jacket, they havelike a little extra something.
Oh my.
They're getting up there.
And I know I'm gonna piss offsomebody when I say this.
(09:13):
They're up there in Blackstoneterritory because Blackstone tends
to do stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah.
So no, it's a.
It's a beautiful, beautiful book.
Well, this is not only when Isaw this, I saw me because I'm a
big fan of San Francisco.
So I saw my head went GoldenGate Bridge.
It's fog.
Yeah, of course.
(09:34):
And I.
Oh, I'm all in.
And then of course we find outit's a little bit different.
Yeah.
But favorite title.
Fog and Fury.
Yes, that's one of thosetitles that I went.
Okay, now somebody has no oneever snagged that title before?
Because that is.
They haven't.
You know, it's a play off of Shakespeare's.
(09:57):
Ah, Is it Macbeth?
Is it Macbeth?
I want to say Macbeth.
I'm going to ask.
I'm going to ask you to recitethat right now, if you would, please.
Right.
Oh, yeah.
All right.
Well, it is drenched in atmosphere.
We're going to get to this.
I want to know what drew youto this environment.
(10:19):
I'm just going to start out ofthe gate with that.
I got so many questions.
I know we're tie on a timecrunch because you got so many things.
You got so many people to talkto because it's coming out soon.
Writing.
Writing proposals and savingthe lives of patients and their families.
It's my, my day job.
One family at a time.
Yeah, one family at a time.
(10:40):
What drew you to this atmosphere?
And we're going to drill downon too Sunny Rush.
Oh, I love me some Sunny Rush.
I love Sunny.
Well, I wanted her to be from,you know, where I'm from, a big place
that is mysterious in itself.
But if you've lived in LosAngeles like I have all my life,
(11:00):
it's not that much of amystery to you.
And you feel kind of confidentnavigating wherever because it's
like I'm from one of thebiggest cities in the world.
So the idea actually came from.
I was invited to be facultyfor the Mendocino Coast Writers Conference.
And I took, you know, theflight into Santa Rosa.
Such a cute little airport.
Oh, yeah.
(11:21):
And, yeah, it's so cutebecause Charles Schulz and the Peanuts
thing is like, oh, this is so darling.
And I get my rental car andI'm fine, and.
And then I hit this highwayand I freak out because it's one
hairpin curve after anotherafter another after another.
It's like for hour and twohours, I'm just holding my breath
(11:44):
and trying to get to Mendocinocoast on Highway 128.
And I've never been so scaredin my life.
And it's absolutely gorgeous.
They're redwood trees and thepeaks of the ocean, but then they're
like logging trucks and morecurves coming the other way and people
(12:04):
who are speeding up behind youwho know how to get there.
And so it was.
It was so stressful.
And when I finally got to mydestination, I'm like, I don't know
how I'm going to get back tothe airport.
I can't drive this thing again.
And that made me think.
And then I got to Mendocino Coast.
Absolutely beautiful.
But then where I was staying,there was like.
(12:25):
It was an older couple, sothey didn't have, like, the latest
intact.
So there was no TV in my room.
There were no lights outside.
It was just dark.
I was laying in the bed in thedark, and I didn't know what to do.
I was so.
I was scared.
I really was scared.
And I was loathing the ride,the drive back.
(12:47):
And I'm like, this is materialright here.
Rarely am I, you know, thisuncomfortable in California, especially
around, you know, in thisstate that I love so much.
And I'm like, this is a story,and it should be a story about a
woman who's coming somewhereto start over.
And she has this romanticvision of what this town is, because
(13:08):
Mendocino coast, which is based.
The story's based on.
Haven's based on.
It's breathtaking, but so areso many of our coastal towns.
And then the fog rolls in, andthen it becomes even scarier.
So I.
I wanted that kind of layered,that beauty, but then that kind of
lasagna's worth of menaceunderneath it, too.
(13:32):
Well, mission accomplished, young.
You know, your protagonist,she doesn't feel like kind of that
typical thriller lead, which I.
I think that's one of the Things.
Somebody asked me the otherday, I was visiting some friends
out in Utah.
It, you know, what is it thatyou are fascinated by on your show?
(13:55):
What, what keeps you going?
I'm like just hearing authors,different worlds that they create
and how they come up with thisso forth.
And I'm like.
But they said, what's the downside?
I'm like, well, to beperfectly frank, because if you know
me, if you ask me straight up,I'm going to tell you exactly what
I think.
And I said, it can get alittle tedious.
It gets a little repetitive.
(14:16):
I said, but when you findevery once in a while either an author
and, or an author with a leadprotagonist that is off the beaten
path, it's just so unique.
You just wrap your arms aroundand you go, oh, I can't wait to get
through this thing, get intothis thing.
And, and I think that's what'sso great, is its non typicality.
(14:40):
So what, you know, whatinspired her creation because she's,
what I love about it too isshe's just not.
When I see lapd Cobb, I kindof think monotonic, right?
I think, okay, one, one, onethrough line.
Yeah, not the case here.
Yeah, no, I, I, she wasinspired actually by Lou Norton,
who was my very first seriescharacter in my Lou Norton series.
(15:04):
And Lou is an LAPD homicide cop.
And she's really upstandingand noble and kind and you know,
she's that the, the, theperfect cop.
I want it like basically her cousin.
I wanted someone who was good,but also, you know, didn't have as
much patience as Lou, who kindof, you know, broke some rules in
(15:29):
a way, but not too muchbecause, you know, I still hold fast
the belief that, you know,especially black women can't do too
much of the coloring outsideof the lines and being a lone wolf
because we don't get to do that.
Right.
And I, so I wanted someonelike her, but who had conflicts,
(15:51):
who, you know, dating someonewho's not totally free, whose mom
was, is experiencing earlyonset dementia, who's been screwed
by the system in many ways.
And I wanted her to befascinated by why we do the things
we do.
That is what's driving her career.
She wants to figure out why dowe hurt each other?
(16:13):
Which is always my question.
You know, so she's kind of,she's modeled after that.
And by making her a P.I.
you know, she hasn't taken avow to the mayor and to God to serve
and protect.
It's about, you know, her mainthrough line is I need to make some
money.
And this is.
I know how to do this thingright here.
(16:34):
Right.
And I'm going to do it, and inthis beautiful place with my boyfriend
and my godfather who runs the agency.
You know, in some ways, she'svery much a capitalist, which isn't
Lou.
So I wanted someone with thosekind of, like, different kind of
motivations and weaknesses andgray areas, and I found her.
(16:58):
I love Sunny, and she lionizesher father, which, you know, she's
a daddy's girl in many ways.
And she's even driving thetruck that he used to drive.
So she's many things.
And, you know, I think peopleare many things.
I think it's up to us writersto figure out how to make us as people
(17:19):
and as characters differentand to pull on those things that
makes us unique.
Yeah, it's those teeny, tiny,little fine details that feel like
throwaways.
But like the friend, forinstance, the papa's truck.
I mean, little things likethat, you know, that there's.
There's admiration, there's.
I want a little piece of whathe was.
(17:40):
Who he was.
Yeah.
And the whole aesthetic thing,because she is from la, and if you've
seen those, and I know youhave, because you're in California,
you've seen those redone Broncos.
They're sexy.
They look good.
And she wants to look good because.
Yeah, it's my dad's, but lookat this.
(18:01):
Yeah.
Have you seen.
And I don't know if you'rereferencing this right here, but
have you seen the company thattakes those and retools them to the
nth degree?
Yes.
And I wish I could afford oneof those.
And Kevin Bacon, while I waswriting this, he actually redid his
Bronco and was giving it awayas a fundraiser.
And it's like, that's the.
(18:22):
That's the one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's so hot.
Oh, my God.
They really are so.
Yeah.
So she is that Bronco in manyways, you know, remade into something
new and then quickly disappointed.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk voice,because, boy, this is.
This is where you shine likethe sun.
(18:44):
Thank you.
Your prose always carries a punch.
We all know that.
But how conscious of you areyou of tone and rhythm?
And I.
And I know, for instance, whenI ask very specific questions, I
don't.
You know, I don't try to getmired down and, well, class, pull
out your notebooks.
And this is where.
But it's the.
It's the nuance that I knowthat I can pick up from writers like
(19:07):
you.
But I want to know about,like, you know, that tone and rhythm
when you're drafting scenes ofhigh tension, you know, what.
How conscious are you of that?
Or.
And I know if I recall, if Irecall, and correct me if I'm wrong,
that you kind of, you kind ofsit on that fence of outline of pants
(19:29):
or plotter.
So I always wonder, like, howmuch of that stuff just comes to
you and how much of that do you.
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonnamake sure she says this here and
does that.
It's, it's, it's both.
Part of it is, you know, thewhole musicality of writing.
I read aloud, everything.
And I, I, you know, when itcomes to writing, my, My gods are
(19:51):
Mosley and.
Oh, God, Elmore Leonard.
Writers who, when you listen,it's like jazz.
So I, you know, when I wasstarting this journey years and years
ago, I was reading thembecause that's how I like hearing
(20:12):
words, you know, and so it.
Part of it is educating myselfon how they do it, which is why I
don't read fiction onvacation, because I'm constantly
a student and I can't, Ican't, I can't rest if I'm a student.
So it's a lot of readingwriters who I admire who have that
(20:32):
kind of musicality.
And also, yeah, it's goingback draft after draft and saying,
is this how this character sounds?
Is this what, what would, whatwould Sonny say?
You know, when I'm creatingevery major character I do after
the first draft, I give themtheir Briggs Meyer personalities
(20:54):
and their horoscopes and allthat, because it's like, well, a
Taurus.
I'm a Taurus.
Driven and stubborn.
But Sunny is like a Virgo.
She is like Taurus times 30.
And so we are all driven.
But Virgo, there's somethingabout that personality.
(21:15):
Like Beyonce is a Virgo.
So I want to make sure thatthose attributes are in how they
speak.
And then I meld it alltogether, that last draft.
It's strictly the art of thewriting where it's like dropping
words and making it flow like music.
(21:37):
It's so funny you should say.
And it's such a perfectexample, Rachel, when you said, like,
jazz, reading this made methink one of my all time favorite
jazz talents.
Miles Davis.
Yes.
Yeah.
Kind of Blue is my favorite album.
It is my top one or two.
Right.
Of all time.
(21:58):
But there is a.
An album he did where he justwent off.
This was when he went off thatdeep end and he was Sporting the
ginormous glasses, and hewould turn his back to the crowd
that all over the place.
And I can't think of the nameof it, but when I was reading this,
for some reason, I kind offelt that.
I felt, oh, it's.
It's kind of blue here.
(22:19):
And then it goes into thatkaleidoscopic schizophrenic.
And I love that, the way thatyou did that.
Again, we're talking aboutvoice and prose and.
Thank you.
And, And.
And some of that sadness,especially when it comes to Sunny
and her relationship.
I thought of Billie Holiday.
I listened to Billie Holiday alot in, In.
(22:40):
In college, and even thissounds random, but there's a video
game I played, Fallout 76, andyou get to listen to, like a radio
station when you're wanderingthe torn up landscape and they include
a Billie Holiday song.
And it makes me sad and happywhen I hear it because her voice
(23:02):
is just so plaintive andpleading but strong.
And, you know, I wanted thosesoft moments, those Billie Holiday
moments for Sonny, especiallywhen she was thinking about how her
life has turned, how her lovehas kind of like just blown up in
her face.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that.
Is that, that musicality.
(23:24):
Well, listeners, I hope you're get.
I hope you're really listeningto this, because this, to me, is
that little magic.
Why, Why I listen to podcastsis we want to drill down and find
those little secret sauce, themagic and musicality.
I love that jazz tempo.
Elmore, as you said, wasfamous for that.
Don.
Don Winslow tends to do that a lot.
(23:46):
Oh, yeah, definitely.
And just it, to me, that isone of the single most enjoyable
things, period.
Mic drop, end of story, full stop.
Whatever else I can do topunctuate that.
Yeah, but it's.
Yeah, it's that musicality that.
That rhythm.
(24:06):
So anyway, I've made that point.
I don't want to beat it now.
This book, Hawk and Fury,dances between suspense and emotional.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna say complexity.
We kind of referenced that earlier.
When you're building athriller, and I.
And I kind of like building ahouse, how do you balance plot, momentum
(24:29):
and character work?
How do you balance that?
I think I see them as one andthe same, because what I do and who
I am, that Briggs, Meyer, thathoroscope dictates what's going to
happen next, because a Scorpiopersonality will just say, well,
(24:51):
I'm just going to go and justkill everybody.
Fuck it.
Right?
Which turns the plot into awhole different story.
Whereas someone who's not solike hard headed and angry will maybe
just sit on something and letthe suspense build and build and
build.
So my characters in some waysdictate when the reveal is going
(25:16):
to happen, when they want tosee the light, basically.
So again, it takes outlining,definitely, but also being open to
the universe saying, yeah,well, not yet or they wouldn't do
this right now because of whothey are.
And that for me at least takesmore than just one, two drafts.
(25:38):
That's like three, four drafts.
You know, you are the firstperson, Rachel, that's ever used
horoscopes in the conversationon character development.
I'm, I'm 99.9% sure.
And so as I'm hearing, as I'mhearing you say this, I'm like, I'm
an Aquarian, right?
Oh, peace.
(25:59):
Yeah, Peace, love.
And just like everybody justget along, which is why so interestingly.
But when I write killers,there's such sick, sadistic mother.
So they're, they're Scorpiosor they're Leos.
Oh.
Anyway, I don't likenecessarily subscribe to that in
(26:19):
my personal life in terms ofhelping build character.
That's a perfect, that's aperfect thing.
Yeah, yeah.
God, I'd never thought aboutthat before, but you said Myers Brigg
and that triggered something.
Yeah.
God, I remember studying thatback in school and it's so, it's,
it's uncanny how close it isto who we are.
It's scary.
(26:41):
I had to do the work versionof that a month ago and I had to
go and read it to my husband.
So I'm like, this is a wit.
Because it had me to a T.
It was so scary.
Especially as I've gottenolder, I've leaned into that kind
of personality where I'm dominant.
I get it done.
(27:02):
Some see that as, as beingmean, but it's like, no, I'm just
trying to make sure thateverybody gets things done and can
have their own lives.
Why are we sending 8 millionemails when it can be like 2?
So.
Yeah, yeah, no, thepersonality things, especially for
a fiction writer who's.
(27:23):
I'm actually interested inmaking my characters into people,
into complex beings.
I don't like reading somethingthat can just be anybody.
Yeah, yeah.
And a lot of that is that.
And you know, sometimesreaders don't like that.
They don't want people thatthey have to think about or that
(27:44):
they really have to fear for.
They just want a cipher forthemselves and that's the story and
they don't care.
So it worked for me.
For the.
For.
Especially for readers who areinterested in character studies.
But sometimes, you know, I getresistance for that.
I'm working on a book right now.
(28:05):
I've been working on it forway too long, hoping it's gonna get
finished soon.
But I came up with this badguy, and I.
And I wanna see what you thinkabout this.
I won't go into a lot of detail.
Cause this is your show, Rachel.
It's not my show.
But I wanted him to be sosuperlatively evil, but.
(28:26):
And have a method of murderthat you rarely, if ever see.
So there.
That there's.
That's.
Number one, that's hard to do.
Number two, make him poetic,almost artistic.
Little less difficult to do.
But then to make his style.
(28:50):
If I tell you what it is, it'sso good.
I don't want to tell you whatit is.
But what I'm really trying toget to is.
Is the fact that I like peoplelike you who really take time to
create that character that isnot a cardboard cutout.
Yeah.
That has a true backstory.
And that you almost feel anempathy for them.
(29:10):
Like, bless their heart.
There is something genuinelyfucked up about them.
Right.
Like Thanos.
Right?
He's like.
He got a point.
Yeah.
He's like.
He's not mean.
Mean.
I mean, he's mean.
He's probably let that.
That work personality that Ihave, it's like, why are we doing
this, y' all?
Can we just, like, cut to thechase and just.
(29:32):
Yeah.
I'm fascinated.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Just so fun.
I'm always curious about something.
Many thriller writers leanheavily on research, you know, and
I'm a big fan of that.
I matter of fact, let me showyou something real quick.
Yeah.
This is my research for thebook I'm working on.
(29:54):
That's just research.
Because I want to know theentire world and what makes it tick.
And then I'll never use maybe10, 20% of that.
Right.
But did Fog and Fury.
Did.
Did you require deep divesinto, like, specific topics or locations
besides your drive up the road?
I.
I did one.
(30:15):
You know, the concerns of asmall town, I've never.
I mean, I went to UC SantaCruz, so that's technically a small
town.
But as an adult, I've neverlived in a small town.
So it's like, what are theyconcerned with?
And one of those things is development.
So I had to go in to find somesmall towns in California that are
worried about gentrificationand the Airbnb ification of everything.
(30:37):
And the town's dying, andwhat's that like?
And who wants what.
So that was like a big, bigdive for me.
I had to figure out how somePI agencies work.
Like, for real.
For real.
That was.
That's always fun.
And just, you know, the fog.
(31:00):
I remember being at Santa Cruzand having it be May and June and
it still being cold becausethat fog comes in and by 3 o' clock,
it's burned off.
But, you know, people think,oh, you're by the beach, it should
be nice.
No, there's a fog because of chemistry.
So researching that and thencreating London, Sutton's character,
(31:25):
the femme fatale of the story,because her background, her family
is a wine family.
Wine winemakers.
And she, you know, isinterfacing with one of the victims
of the story, Xander Zander Monroe.
And I had to figure out whatwould a woman like her, how would
(31:50):
she get to know a boy like Xander?
And so that was.
That took a moment because.
Yeah.
And she.
In my head, she first startedout as an image, and that image is
the actress Rosamund Pike.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So it's like that pretty, icyblonde queen who is, like, mysterious
(32:14):
and kind of, like, scary.
It's like, well, what wouldshe be?
She'd be a pediatric psychiatrist.
And that's how they got toknow each other, by her leaning in
and being concerned and himfinding comfort in this person who
is also angry that his parentstook him from his home in Oakland
(32:36):
and moved him up to this placecalled Haven.
You know, so she was a deepdive for me, but it was mostly the
small town and real estatedevelopment and those concerns that,
you know, people in thoseplaces have.
Well, then, of course, you hadto do a little bit of deep diving
on wine and winemaking and howyou can appreciate it as you're studying
(33:00):
and.
Yeah, I mean.
Right.
That requires some research,doesn't it?
You enjoy it.
It does.
It does.
It does.
And in the next book, Mist andMalice, I kind of dive deeper into
the wine thing because we wereup there with friends and did this
wine bike, trolley, tourthing, and it was the most bizarre
thing that I've ever done.
(33:21):
And it's in the book becauseit's like, what are we doing?
What is this thing that we're doing?
We're on a bike that we're allpeddling together, 12 of us drinking,
going from place to place.
This has to be in a book.
So, yes, research.
It is.
Yeah.
It is rife with complexity andpossibility and danger.
(33:43):
Yeah.
From the mere fact ofconsuming wine while Bike riding.
Right, Right.
But it is.
But it's all in the same.
It's all in the name of good variety.
I want to bring readers authenticity.
Right.
I have a loaded doublequestion for you as.
As we start making our way,you built a strong name and reputation
(34:06):
that the thriller space.
I mean, all you got to do, bythe way, ladies and gentlemen, is
just open up the book.
It's not one page of accolades.
Oh, it's not two.
It's not three.
It's not four.
It's not five.
It's not six, seven.
It's eight and a half.
I have to convince you that Iknow what I'm doing.
Well, can I just say, betweenus girls, you don't have any.
(34:29):
You do not have to convinceanybody, but.
Oh, thank you.
What part of this genre thatyou have mastered still excites and
or challenges you as a writer?
That's point A.
So which.
What still.
What.
What still just lights you up?
Conversely, what's the onething that drives you bonkers?
(34:51):
What lights me up is creatingcharacters like Sunny and Xander
and London and Mackenzie andeven Figgy the dog.
I like people study and makingthem real.
What I still struggle with.
That's the second part.
(35:11):
It's because I write first person.
It's knowing when to stop withmy introspection because I.
I personally have so manythings running around in my head,
and I'm constantly questioningthings and wondering about things
because we be learning.
And so my.
My editor still helps me say,you don't need that, you don't need
(35:34):
that.
You don't need that.
So learning how to edit someof that out is something that I'm,
you know, still learning.
And I'm getting better at itnow that I'm more aware of it.
But, yeah, I like.
I like creating.
And even the cities arecharacters to me.
So creating these fullyrealized people and places and then,
(35:54):
you know, giving you enoughand shutting up without saying so
much about it.
All right, since we're socerebral, I'm going to finish.
I got one more good cerebralquestion, if that's the right word.
And I don't want to spoilanything on Fog and Fury, but it
touches on themes of identityand justice.
(36:15):
Yeah.
Now, how do you explore moralambiguity, which has a couple of
big dishes of it served up inhere in your characters?
Without tipping the scales toofar in.
One direction, I try and haveall kind of all thought and all philosophies
represented, and then my maincharacter selecting one of those
(36:38):
and charging ahead and dealingwith whatever Repercussions that
come as a result of it.
So I, Yeah, I have my Greekchorus and everyone presenting their
case, and then Sunny saying.
Or all my characters saying,I'm gonna take that one.
And I hope it's the best choice.
And sometimes it's not.
And that's what drives, youknow, makes it exciting.
(37:01):
So I chose my own adventure.
What happens now?
So, yeah, when.
So, you know, you.
I, I guess I don't even thinkabout it.
Are all your books in first person?
All except maybe, I think.
And Now She's Gone was writtenin third person, but I would say
(37:23):
98% of them are first person.
Because I remember two yearsago, as we mentioned at the beginning
of the show, what neverhappened was first person.
Because I remember thinking, bang.
And by the way, 24,000 stellarreviews on Amazon, might I say, which
is cray cray for two years.
Cray cray for two years.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess.
(37:43):
Do you ever find yourselfgoing, you know what?
I'm gonna mix this thing upand I'm gonna write third.
Or I'm gonna get, I'm gonnaget third.
I'm gonna do a mixture ofthirds or maybe a first and third.
So I did a first and third forLand of Shadows.
Usually my books are firstperson present tense.
(38:04):
This is first person past tense.
So I kind of stick it up there.
Yeah, slow down.
I know, I know, I know.
Innovating all the time.
But I feel most comfortablewriting is already hard and my time
is already limited.
And so I'm like, well, whychoose to do something new in that
(38:28):
way?
I choose new types of storiesand, you know, places and all that
type of thing.
At least I'm familiar andcomfortable with the mechanics of
how I'm telling it.
So one day, when I have a lotof time, I'm going to try and do
a third person.
Well, this, this begs thisquestion, because I know you work
(38:49):
a solid nine to five.
I mean, you're, you're, you're stacked.
So how do you squeeze in?
And this is, this is no light feed.
Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna.
If I were clocking it, I wouldsay 360.
Let me see how close I am.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Look at me.
Not to toot my horn, but 370.
Yeah, 374.
(39:10):
Yeah, that's a, that's a hefty.
You know, it's not quite a,it's not quite a workout, but, I
mean, no.
How do you squeeze it in?
So I, I, I still.
Except for that Week of vacation.
I wake up at 4 o' clock everymorning to write until like 7 and
then do the business ofwriting and then I start my day job
(39:31):
and then at after work I will.
If I need to do sometranscribing or something that's,
that doesn't require heavy thought.
I will do that until aboutlike from 3 to 5 or 3 to 5:30 and
that's, that's it.
Yeah.
And Christmas morning.
I don't work on Christmas morning.
(39:51):
David.
I've got to draw the line somewhere.
Got it.
Yeah, I get it.
I get it done.
Because I absolutely love it.
I really, really do lovetelling stories and meeting these
people and putting my TippiHedron type characters in their faces
and you know, it's a joy to me.
(40:13):
Yeah.
And it shows.
And so shows.
I'm with you.
I'm a big fan of four o' clock.
Now.
My, my wake up is probably.
Well, today was.
Yeah, it was 4:55.
So it's somewhere in that 4:30to 5:30 zone.
You know why the world isstill quiet.
It's still quiet.
You can't do dishes or laundry.
(40:34):
You don't feel guilty for, youknow, not being, you know, the day
jobber or the parent or thespouse or any of that.
It's just you and the computerand your pets.
And also your mind hasn'tpicked up all that monkey chatter
that's gonna, that's gonnaroll in somewhere around 7, 8, 9
(40:54):
o' clock, you know?
Yeah.
No, I always say I give my,myself the best words and then I
give my employer what comes after.
Well done.
All right, I'm gonna do aquick little round because I haven't
done this forever and you andI have such a great chemistry.
Before we wrap, I want to dofive rapid fire questions.
Some of them have been touched on.
Okay.
Some of them had not.
(41:16):
It's the first thing that popsinto your head.
Okay.
Plot first or character first character.
The book that made you want tobecome a writer, it by Stephen King
is a good one.
Your ideal writing fuel.
Coffee, Tea, wine or chaos?
Coffee with some chaos.
(41:38):
I'll have a coffee with theside of chaos.
Please, please.
All right.
Favorite weapon in a thriller?
Psychological manipulation ora good old fashioned gun?
Psychological manipulation.
And we all knew that one.
Right.
And fog or fury?
Which one best describes yourwriting style?
More fury.
Yeah.
(41:59):
Fury.
Yeah.
Back to the horoscope.
In this horror skate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I always close with one question.
I'm going to be real curiousto see how it has changed in the
two years.
How has it matured in the twoyears since we last spoke?
What is that?
Best writing advice for mylisteners who want to be writers.
(42:20):
Put your butt in the seat.
That's it.
You gotta, you gotta be thereand just every day or as close to
every day as you can.
No, every day.
I can do it as I'm doing it.
Every day.
You can it every day.
Yeah.
Yep.
I feel a song coming on.
I love big books and I cannot lie.
And I cannot lie.
(42:42):
Well folks, once again thebook is Fog and Fury.
You're going to love this one.
Go to Rachel Howel.com tolearn more.
And Rachel, as always, you areone of the best.
So delightful.
Thank you so much.
I always have fun talking with you.
I did not ask but is there.
(43:03):
Wait a minute, you did Mistand Malice.
Another good title.
Uh huh huh.
I'm leaning into this kind ofPI thing man.
I love it.
And if the same folks atAmazon, Thomas and Mercer at in charge,
there's gonna be another sexybook cover in the making.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(43:24):
Thank you again so much.
Thank you.
Thanks once again to RachelHousel hall and the book Fog and
Fury.
This one is a killer read folks.
If you'd like to be on theshow, do me a favor and drop us a
Note@the thrillerzonemail.comthethrillerzonemail.com now, not
everyone could get on the showand in the spirit of transparency,
(43:48):
I'm going to take a little bitlighter load during the summer months.
I know you're thinking butDave, I gotta have my episode every
single week.
I know, I get it.
I'm the same way.
I love to know that there'salways an episode dropping.
And as you now know in seasonnine we're dropping our shows on
Wednesdays instead of Thursdays.
But I do need.
Daddy needs a little bit of a break.
(44:08):
Daddy wants to enjoy his summer.
He has burned through the lastfour, three summers and he wants
a little bit of time off, ifyou know what I'm saying.
So if you don't get a showevery single week, bear with me.
I'm trying to get somevacation myself too.
But if you'd like to get intouch the thrillerzonemail.com of
course you can always reach usat the thrillerzone.com that's right,
(44:31):
your one stop shop foreverything, thrillers.
I mean if you're, if you'reenjoying thrillers, whether it's
fiction, television, film,this is the place.
We've been voted your numberone thriller podcast in the world,
and we have to work hard tokeep it that way.
So thank you for your patiencewhile I take a little bit of time
(44:51):
off throughout the summer.
And of course, we'll alwaystry to fit in everyone we possibly
can.
So until next time, I'm yourhost, Dave Temple.
Thank you so much for being there.
Thank you so much forsupporting us.
And I'll see you next time foranother edition of the Thriller Zone,
your number one podcast forstories that thrill the Thriller
Zone.
Foreign.
Hello there.
Your host Dave Temple here foranother edition of the Thriller Zone
where we are now celebratingseason nine.
Man, I am so excited.
What does that relate to?
(00:21):
We're down to what episode 234and today's guest is someone who
has been on the show.
We found out two years agothis week what never happened was
that book.
Now she's got a new one.
Fog and Fury.
Check out that cover, will ya?
Look at that.
That is some kind of gorgeous.
Rachel Housel hall is on theshow today.
(00:42):
Have you ever wondered howmany books she's written?
Well, let me tell you something.
Land of Shadows, guys of Ash,Trail of Echoes, City of Saviors,
they all fall down and nowshe's gone.
These toxic things we lie here.
What never happened.
What fire brings the last one.
And now fog and fury.
This gal is busy.
And this, this particular bookfeels like almost at one time a departure,
(01:05):
one time something brand newand at the same time comfortable
as well worn shoes.
Either way you're going toenjoy and you're going to love this
conversation.
I always have fun with Rachel.
So let's get into it on theThriller Zone.
All looking fancy with yourlittle cook.
How are you?
(01:26):
It's amazing how many peoplementioned your little cup.
It's.
You know why I drink in alittle cup?
Because if.
If I drink in a big one, Ijust drink too much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And this is about nowadays.
Is that ever a problem?
You look f.
(01:47):
Maybe we should.
You look fantastic.
Might I say I came back from vacation.
It was vacation.
We went to.
We went to Atlantis, Bahamas.
Yeah.
And we got back Thursday nightand I did not.
And I'm.
I'm back at my day job andit's like.
Oh man.
(02:09):
How long were you gone?
From the 19th until Thursday.
It was wonderful.
It was absolutely wonderful.
It was so perfect.
The food was beautiful, thepeople were warm.
It was.
Yeah.
So I still have that just fromvacation glow.
(02:31):
Check me next week and I'll bescowling again.
Yeah, I wish I could market that.
Yeah, right.
We can make a fortune,couldn't we?
Yes.
Yes we could.
Yes we could.
How's this?
Just in modeling that justrelaxed glow.
It's Rachel hall.
That's me.
And I need a little soundtrackbehind it.
(02:52):
Something light and tinkly.
Yeah.
No, I'm good.
Life is good.
It's.
I am.
By the way, you're my first orsecond episode somewhere around there
of a season nine.
Holy.
Has it been that long?
Girlfriend?
Can I say that by the way youwere here two years ago this week.
(03:15):
Wow.
And that was 138.
That would have been.
That would have been season five.
We're now in season nine.
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God.
It doesn't seem like that long.
Oh, you look great.
Well, thank you.
I mean, since I've seen you,I've gone through prostate cancer.
Oh, wow.
How are you doing?
(03:36):
I'm great.
I had the.
I had a.
I had a surgery.
I had radiation.
I had.
Were you seeking treatment?
Where did you have treatment?
Where?
Scripps.
Okay.
Yeah.
Wait, you're down in San Diego?
Yes, ma' am.
I thought.
Wait a minute.
What?
I thought you were up here.
(03:57):
Why didn't you think you wereup here?
Well, I have a studio up therethat we sometimes.
In Glendale.
In Glendale.
When we can arrange for a sit down.
But I only, I, I piggyback onsomebody else's studio.
It's, it's not my own.
Okay.
Truth be told.
So.
Yeah.
(04:17):
Okay.
That's.
I did not expect you to say scripts.
I'm like, I know scripts.
And that's not.
Because I expected you to sayCedars, ucla.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
If, if it, if I were inGlendale, you and I would be sitting
there breathing the samerighteous air.
It was always hard for me to.
Because I, and I work forCedars and.
(04:38):
Yeah.
And so, like, I have, like a career.
Career.
And I just had my one on onesand now I'm slotting this in because.
Yeah, that was why it wasalways hard, because.
It's okay.
It's all good.
It's all good.
Well, I'm glad you, you're,you're recovering.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
It's.
Yeah.
I, I, it is zero.
(04:58):
And I'm good and I'm feelingalmost better than ever.
And.
Yeah, it's.
I am going to take a littletime off of the summer, which, as
you should.
I worked all the way throughthe cancer surgery, so I'm like,
why did I.
My wife said, well, you know what?
As a survivor, I did the same.
You know, I, I was pregnant atthe same time.
And, you know, they give youthe three days and then I was back
(05:21):
at work.
I think, I think it has to dowith control.
It's like, this is normal.
My work life is normal.
I can control it.
I don't have to think aboutwhat's actually happening to me.
And so I don't want to just.
But you look back, it's like,well, why was I rushing to get back
to.
But that's what it is.
It's.
It's A sense of.
(05:41):
You're seeking normalcy.
Yeah.
And I don't know, Rachel, whatI think about that.
I think normalcy is good.
Of course.
But I.
You and I are both pretty driven.
I've followed your career.
I mean, you're.
You're clocking a nice, tidydozen books.
And.
Yeah.
Your work ethic is unmatched.
And I know that it.
(06:03):
You're right.
You said it's.
It's control.
It's feeling.
What's the word that I'malways feeling?
Valid.
You know?
And so my wife says, can I askyou something?
I'm like, well, she goes, whydo you work so hard?
You're not getting paid for this.
I'm like, well, I don't.
I don't have any other switch,but full on.
(06:25):
There's no.
There's no drop feed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, we are.
We are from the same.
Same tribe, but it's like, forvacation, I actually left my laptop.
I didn't do anything.
I read and didn't do anything,but that's, like the only week in
(06:45):
my.
In my year that I do that now.
Can I ask what you were reading?
Was it fiction or nonfiction?
Nonfiction.
I always read nonfiction.
Well, but then I started.
Wait.
When I read Richard Prestonbook Demon in the Freezer, which
he published right beforeCOVID And then I started reading
(07:07):
the Spaceship, the SpaceShuttle, the Challenger book.
Nonfiction.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
Usually it's a shipwreck book,but there were no shipwreck books
this year.
Like, last year, I read DavidGran's on the Wager, so I like nonfiction.
(07:27):
When.
When I'm on vacation, I'm with you.
I don't have to think about the.
Tricks, you know, I don't have to.
I'm going to find thatloophole there somewhere.
Come on now.
Right, right.
So, nonfiction.
I can never write a book aboutSpace Shuttle Challenger, you know,
so I can actually just enjoy it.
But, yeah, we're very similar.
Yeah.
(07:47):
I just like to be learningsomething all the time.
All the time.
All the time.
We were in the hotel room,and, you know when you're in another
country, the channels are on.
Yeah.
And I found the HistoryChannel, and it was about.
Oh, my gosh, Dillinger.
Oh, yeah.
And everybody was asleep, andI'm like, ooh, John Dillinger.
And then there was going to beanother one, another random one.
(08:10):
And I told my husband, it'slike, if you want to watch something
else, take the remote.
But I can sit here and watch,you know, History's Mysteries, like,
all day.
And be fascinated by it.
So.
Yeah, yeah, we'd be learning stuff.
That should be a T shirt.
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
(08:32):
Hey, by the way, I always liketo start out with this, with the
COVID and Rachel, this thingis so beautiful.
They are incredible with covers.
And you saw the.
Do you have.
Wait, you don't have the, thehardcover yet, do you, do you have
the hardcover?
So the make it book has.
(08:53):
Yeah.
Oh, I didn't even see that.
Uh huh.
On all my Thomas and Mercertitles, if you take off the dust,
the dust jacket, they havelike a little extra something.
Oh my.
They're getting up there.
And I know I'm gonna piss offsomebody when I say this.
(09:13):
They're up there in Blackstoneterritory because Blackstone tends
to do stuff like that.
Yeah, yeah.
So no, it's a.
It's a beautiful, beautiful book.
Well, this is not only when Isaw this, I saw me because I'm a
big fan of San Francisco.
So I saw my head went GoldenGate Bridge.
It's fog.
Yeah, of course.
(09:34):
And I.
Oh, I'm all in.
And then of course we find outit's a little bit different.
Yeah.
But favorite title.
Fog and Fury.
Yes, that's one of thosetitles that I went.
Okay, now somebody has no oneever snagged that title before?
Because that is.
They haven't.
You know, it's a play off of Shakespeare's.
(09:57):
Ah, Is it Macbeth?
Is it Macbeth?
I want to say Macbeth.
I'm going to ask.
I'm going to ask you to recitethat right now, if you would, please.
Right.
Oh, yeah.
All right.
Well, it is drenched in atmosphere.
We're going to get to this.
I want to know what drew youto this environment.
(10:19):
I'm just going to start out ofthe gate with that.
I got so many questions.
I know we're tie on a timecrunch because you got so many things.
You got so many people to talkto because it's coming out soon.
Writing.
Writing proposals and savingthe lives of patients and their families.
It's my, my day job.
One family at a time.
Yeah, one family at a time.
(10:40):
What drew you to this atmosphere?
And we're going to drill downon too Sunny Rush.
Oh, I love me some Sunny Rush.
I love Sunny.
Well, I wanted her to be from,you know, where I'm from, a big place
that is mysterious in itself.
But if you've lived in LosAngeles like I have all my life,
(11:00):
it's not that much of amystery to you.
And you feel kind of confidentnavigating wherever because it's
like I'm from one of thebiggest cities in the world.
So the idea actually came from.
I was invited to be facultyfor the Mendocino Coast Writers Conference.
And I took, you know, theflight into Santa Rosa.
Such a cute little airport.
Oh, yeah.
(11:21):
And, yeah, it's so cutebecause Charles Schulz and the Peanuts
thing is like, oh, this is so darling.
And I get my rental car andI'm fine, and.
And then I hit this highwayand I freak out because it's one
hairpin curve after anotherafter another after another.
It's like for hour and twohours, I'm just holding my breath
(11:44):
and trying to get to Mendocinocoast on Highway 128.
And I've never been so scaredin my life.
And it's absolutely gorgeous.
They're redwood trees and thepeaks of the ocean, but then they're
like logging trucks and morecurves coming the other way and people
(12:04):
who are speeding up behind youwho know how to get there.
And so it was.
It was so stressful.
And when I finally got to mydestination, I'm like, I don't know
how I'm going to get back tothe airport.
I can't drive this thing again.
And that made me think.
And then I got to Mendocino Coast.
Absolutely beautiful.
But then where I was staying,there was like.
(12:25):
It was an older couple, sothey didn't have, like, the latest
intact.
So there was no TV in my room.
There were no lights outside.
It was just dark.
I was laying in the bed in thedark, and I didn't know what to do.
I was so.
I was scared.
I really was scared.
And I was loathing the ride,the drive back.
(12:47):
And I'm like, this is materialright here.
Rarely am I, you know, thisuncomfortable in California, especially
around, you know, in thisstate that I love so much.
And I'm like, this is a story,and it should be a story about a
woman who's coming somewhereto start over.
And she has this romanticvision of what this town is, because
(13:08):
Mendocino coast, which is based.
The story's based on.
Haven's based on.
It's breathtaking, but so areso many of our coastal towns.
And then the fog rolls in, andthen it becomes even scarier.
So I.
I wanted that kind of layered,that beauty, but then that kind of
lasagna's worth of menaceunderneath it, too.
(13:32):
Well, mission accomplished, young.
You know, your protagonist,she doesn't feel like kind of that
typical thriller lead, which I.
I think that's one of the Things.
Somebody asked me the otherday, I was visiting some friends
out in Utah.
It, you know, what is it thatyou are fascinated by on your show?
(13:55):
What, what keeps you going?
I'm like just hearing authors,different worlds that they create
and how they come up with thisso forth.
And I'm like.
But they said, what's the downside?
I'm like, well, to beperfectly frank, because if you know
me, if you ask me straight up,I'm going to tell you exactly what
I think.
And I said, it can get alittle tedious.
It gets a little repetitive.
(14:16):
I said, but when you findevery once in a while either an author
and, or an author with a leadprotagonist that is off the beaten
path, it's just so unique.
You just wrap your arms aroundand you go, oh, I can't wait to get
through this thing, get intothis thing.
And, and I think that's what'sso great, is its non typicality.
(14:40):
So what, you know, whatinspired her creation because she's,
what I love about it too isshe's just not.
When I see lapd Cobb, I kindof think monotonic, right?
I think, okay, one, one, onethrough line.
Yeah, not the case here.
Yeah, no, I, I, she wasinspired actually by Lou Norton,
who was my very first seriescharacter in my Lou Norton series.
(15:04):
And Lou is an LAPD homicide cop.
And she's really upstandingand noble and kind and you know,
she's that the, the, theperfect cop.
I want it like basically her cousin.
I wanted someone who was good,but also, you know, didn't have as
much patience as Lou, who kindof, you know, broke some rules in
(15:29):
a way, but not too muchbecause, you know, I still hold fast
the belief that, you know,especially black women can't do too
much of the coloring outsideof the lines and being a lone wolf
because we don't get to do that.
Right.
And I, so I wanted someonelike her, but who had conflicts,
(15:51):
who, you know, dating someonewho's not totally free, whose mom
was, is experiencing earlyonset dementia, who's been screwed
by the system in many ways.
And I wanted her to befascinated by why we do the things
we do.
That is what's driving her career.
She wants to figure out why dowe hurt each other?
(16:13):
Which is always my question.
You know, so she's kind of,she's modeled after that.
And by making her a P.I.
you know, she hasn't taken avow to the mayor and to God to serve
and protect.
It's about, you know, her mainthrough line is I need to make some
money.
And this is.
I know how to do this thingright here.
(16:34):
Right.
And I'm going to do it, and inthis beautiful place with my boyfriend
and my godfather who runs the agency.
You know, in some ways, she'svery much a capitalist, which isn't
Lou.
So I wanted someone with thosekind of, like, different kind of
motivations and weaknesses andgray areas, and I found her.
(16:58):
I love Sunny, and she lionizesher father, which, you know, she's
a daddy's girl in many ways.
And she's even driving thetruck that he used to drive.
So she's many things.
And, you know, I think peopleare many things.
I think it's up to us writersto figure out how to make us as people
(17:19):
and as characters differentand to pull on those things that
makes us unique.
Yeah, it's those teeny, tiny,little fine details that feel like
throwaways.
But like the friend, forinstance, the papa's truck.
I mean, little things likethat, you know, that there's.
There's admiration, there's.
I want a little piece of whathe was.
(17:40):
Who he was.
Yeah.
And the whole aesthetic thing,because she is from la, and if you've
seen those, and I know youhave, because you're in California,
you've seen those redone Broncos.
They're sexy.
They look good.
And she wants to look good because.
Yeah, it's my dad's, but lookat this.
(18:01):
Yeah.
Have you seen.
And I don't know if you'rereferencing this right here, but
have you seen the company thattakes those and retools them to the
nth degree?
Yes.
And I wish I could afford oneof those.
And Kevin Bacon, while I waswriting this, he actually redid his
Bronco and was giving it awayas a fundraiser.
And it's like, that's the.
(18:22):
That's the one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's so hot.
Oh, my God.
They really are so.
Yeah.
So she is that Bronco in manyways, you know, remade into something
new and then quickly disappointed.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk voice,because, boy, this is.
This is where you shine likethe sun.
(18:44):
Thank you.
Your prose always carries a punch.
We all know that.
But how conscious of you areyou of tone and rhythm?
And I.
And I know, for instance, whenI ask very specific questions, I
don't.
You know, I don't try to getmired down and, well, class, pull
out your notebooks.
And this is where.
But it's the.
It's the nuance that I knowthat I can pick up from writers like
(19:07):
you.
But I want to know about,like, you know, that tone and rhythm
when you're drafting scenes ofhigh tension, you know, what.
How conscious are you of that?
Or.
And I know if I recall, if Irecall, and correct me if I'm wrong,
that you kind of, you kind ofsit on that fence of outline of pants
(19:29):
or plotter.
So I always wonder, like, howmuch of that stuff just comes to
you and how much of that do you.
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonnamake sure she says this here and
does that.
It's, it's, it's both.
Part of it is, you know, thewhole musicality of writing.
I read aloud, everything.
And I, I, you know, when itcomes to writing, my, My gods are
(19:51):
Mosley and.
Oh, God, Elmore Leonard.
Writers who, when you listen,it's like jazz.
So I, you know, when I wasstarting this journey years and years
ago, I was reading thembecause that's how I like hearing
(20:12):
words, you know, and so it.
Part of it is educating myselfon how they do it, which is why I
don't read fiction onvacation, because I'm constantly
a student and I can't, Ican't, I can't rest if I'm a student.
So it's a lot of readingwriters who I admire who have that
(20:32):
kind of musicality.
And also, yeah, it's goingback draft after draft and saying,
is this how this character sounds?
Is this what, what would, whatwould Sonny say?
You know, when I'm creatingevery major character I do after
the first draft, I give themtheir Briggs Meyer personalities
(20:54):
and their horoscopes and allthat, because it's like, well, a
Taurus.
I'm a Taurus.
Driven and stubborn.
But Sunny is like a Virgo.
She is like Taurus times 30.
And so we are all driven.
But Virgo, there's somethingabout that personality.
(21:15):
Like Beyonce is a Virgo.
So I want to make sure thatthose attributes are in how they
speak.
And then I meld it alltogether, that last draft.
It's strictly the art of thewriting where it's like dropping
words and making it flow like music.
(21:37):
It's so funny you should say.
And it's such a perfectexample, Rachel, when you said, like,
jazz, reading this made methink one of my all time favorite
jazz talents.
Miles Davis.
Yes.
Yeah.
Kind of Blue is my favorite album.
It is my top one or two.
Right.
Of all time.
(21:58):
But there is a.
An album he did where he justwent off.
This was when he went off thatdeep end and he was Sporting the
ginormous glasses, and hewould turn his back to the crowd
that all over the place.
And I can't think of the nameof it, but when I was reading this,
for some reason, I kind offelt that.
I felt, oh, it's.
It's kind of blue here.
(22:19):
And then it goes into thatkaleidoscopic schizophrenic.
And I love that, the way thatyou did that.
Again, we're talking aboutvoice and prose and.
Thank you.
And, And.
And some of that sadness,especially when it comes to Sunny
and her relationship.
I thought of Billie Holiday.
I listened to Billie Holiday alot in, In.
(22:40):
In college, and even thissounds random, but there's a video
game I played, Fallout 76, andyou get to listen to, like a radio
station when you're wanderingthe torn up landscape and they include
a Billie Holiday song.
And it makes me sad and happywhen I hear it because her voice
(23:02):
is just so plaintive andpleading but strong.
And, you know, I wanted thosesoft moments, those Billie Holiday
moments for Sonny, especiallywhen she was thinking about how her
life has turned, how her lovehas kind of like just blown up in
her face.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that.
Is that, that musicality.
(23:24):
Well, listeners, I hope you're get.
I hope you're really listeningto this, because this, to me, is
that little magic.
Why, Why I listen to podcastsis we want to drill down and find
those little secret sauce, themagic and musicality.
I love that jazz tempo.
Elmore, as you said, wasfamous for that.
Don.
Don Winslow tends to do that a lot.
(23:46):
Oh, yeah, definitely.
And just it, to me, that isone of the single most enjoyable
things, period.
Mic drop, end of story, full stop.
Whatever else I can do topunctuate that.
Yeah, but it's.
Yeah, it's that musicality that.
That rhythm.
(24:06):
So anyway, I've made that point.
I don't want to beat it now.
This book, Hawk and Fury,dances between suspense and emotional.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna say complexity.
We kind of referenced that earlier.
When you're building athriller, and I.
And I kind of like building ahouse, how do you balance plot, momentum
(24:29):
and character work?
How do you balance that?
I think I see them as one andthe same, because what I do and who
I am, that Briggs, Meyer, thathoroscope dictates what's going to
happen next, because a Scorpiopersonality will just say, well,
(24:51):
I'm just going to go and justkill everybody.
Fuck it.
Right?
Which turns the plot into awhole different story.
Whereas someone who's not solike hard headed and angry will maybe
just sit on something and letthe suspense build and build and
build.
So my characters in some waysdictate when the reveal is going
(25:16):
to happen, when they want tosee the light, basically.
So again, it takes outlining,definitely, but also being open to
the universe saying, yeah,well, not yet or they wouldn't do
this right now because of whothey are.
And that for me at least takesmore than just one, two drafts.
(25:38):
That's like three, four drafts.
You know, you are the firstperson, Rachel, that's ever used
horoscopes in the conversationon character development.
I'm, I'm 99.9% sure.
And so as I'm hearing, as I'mhearing you say this, I'm like, I'm
an Aquarian, right?
Oh, peace.
(25:59):
Yeah, Peace, love.
And just like everybody justget along, which is why so interestingly.
But when I write killers,there's such sick, sadistic mother.
So they're, they're Scorpiosor they're Leos.
Oh.
Anyway, I don't likenecessarily subscribe to that in
(26:19):
my personal life in terms ofhelping build character.
That's a perfect, that's aperfect thing.
Yeah, yeah.
God, I'd never thought aboutthat before, but you said Myers Brigg
and that triggered something.
Yeah.
God, I remember studying thatback in school and it's so, it's,
it's uncanny how close it isto who we are.
It's scary.
(26:41):
I had to do the work versionof that a month ago and I had to
go and read it to my husband.
So I'm like, this is a wit.
Because it had me to a T.
It was so scary.
Especially as I've gottenolder, I've leaned into that kind
of personality where I'm dominant.
I get it done.
(27:02):
Some see that as, as beingmean, but it's like, no, I'm just
trying to make sure thateverybody gets things done and can
have their own lives.
Why are we sending 8 millionemails when it can be like 2?
So.
Yeah, yeah, no, thepersonality things, especially for
a fiction writer who's.
(27:23):
I'm actually interested inmaking my characters into people,
into complex beings.
I don't like reading somethingthat can just be anybody.
Yeah, yeah.
And a lot of that is that.
And you know, sometimesreaders don't like that.
They don't want people thatthey have to think about or that
(27:44):
they really have to fear for.
They just want a cipher forthemselves and that's the story and
they don't care.
So it worked for me.
For the.
For.
Especially for readers who areinterested in character studies.
But sometimes, you know, I getresistance for that.
I'm working on a book right now.
(28:05):
I've been working on it forway too long, hoping it's gonna get
finished soon.
But I came up with this badguy, and I.
And I wanna see what you thinkabout this.
I won't go into a lot of detail.
Cause this is your show, Rachel.
It's not my show.
But I wanted him to be sosuperlatively evil, but.
(28:26):
And have a method of murderthat you rarely, if ever see.
So there.
That there's.
That's.
Number one, that's hard to do.
Number two, make him poetic,almost artistic.
Little less difficult to do.
But then to make his style.
(28:50):
If I tell you what it is, it'sso good.
I don't want to tell you whatit is.
But what I'm really trying toget to is.
Is the fact that I like peoplelike you who really take time to
create that character that isnot a cardboard cutout.
Yeah.
That has a true backstory.
And that you almost feel anempathy for them.
(29:10):
Like, bless their heart.
There is something genuinelyfucked up about them.
Right.
Like Thanos.
Right?
He's like.
He got a point.
Yeah.
He's like.
He's not mean.
Mean.
I mean, he's mean.
He's probably let that.
That work personality that Ihave, it's like, why are we doing
this, y' all?
Can we just, like, cut to thechase and just.
(29:32):
Yeah.
I'm fascinated.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Just so fun.
I'm always curious about something.
Many thriller writers leanheavily on research, you know, and
I'm a big fan of that.
I matter of fact, let me showyou something real quick.
Yeah.
This is my research for thebook I'm working on.
(29:54):
That's just research.
Because I want to know theentire world and what makes it tick.
And then I'll never use maybe10, 20% of that.
Right.
But did Fog and Fury.
Did.
Did you require deep divesinto, like, specific topics or locations
besides your drive up the road?
I.
I did one.
(30:15):
You know, the concerns of asmall town, I've never.
I mean, I went to UC SantaCruz, so that's technically a small
town.
But as an adult, I've neverlived in a small town.
So it's like, what are theyconcerned with?
And one of those things is development.
So I had to go in to find somesmall towns in California that are
worried about gentrificationand the Airbnb ification of everything.
(30:37):
And the town's dying, andwhat's that like?
And who wants what.
So that was like a big, bigdive for me.
I had to figure out how somePI agencies work.
Like, for real.
For real.
That was.
That's always fun.
And just, you know, the fog.
(31:00):
I remember being at Santa Cruzand having it be May and June and
it still being cold becausethat fog comes in and by 3 o' clock,
it's burned off.
But, you know, people think,oh, you're by the beach, it should
be nice.
No, there's a fog because of chemistry.
So researching that and thencreating London, Sutton's character,
(31:25):
the femme fatale of the story,because her background, her family
is a wine family.
Wine winemakers.
And she, you know, isinterfacing with one of the victims
of the story, Xander Zander Monroe.
And I had to figure out whatwould a woman like her, how would
(31:50):
she get to know a boy like Xander?
And so that was.
That took a moment because.
Yeah.
And she.
In my head, she first startedout as an image, and that image is
the actress Rosamund Pike.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So it's like that pretty, icyblonde queen who is, like, mysterious
(32:14):
and kind of, like, scary.
It's like, well, what wouldshe be?
She'd be a pediatric psychiatrist.
And that's how they got toknow each other, by her leaning in
and being concerned and himfinding comfort in this person who
is also angry that his parentstook him from his home in Oakland
(32:36):
and moved him up to this placecalled Haven.
You know, so she was a deepdive for me, but it was mostly the
small town and real estatedevelopment and those concerns that,
you know, people in thoseplaces have.
Well, then, of course, you hadto do a little bit of deep diving
on wine and winemaking and howyou can appreciate it as you're studying
(33:00):
and.
Yeah, I mean.
Right.
That requires some research,doesn't it?
You enjoy it.
It does.
It does.
It does.
And in the next book, Mist andMalice, I kind of dive deeper into
the wine thing because we wereup there with friends and did this
wine bike, trolley, tourthing, and it was the most bizarre
thing that I've ever done.
(33:21):
And it's in the book becauseit's like, what are we doing?
What is this thing that we're doing?
We're on a bike that we're allpeddling together, 12 of us drinking,
going from place to place.
This has to be in a book.
So, yes, research.
It is.
Yeah.
It is rife with complexity andpossibility and danger.
(33:43):
Yeah.
From the mere fact ofconsuming wine while Bike riding.
Right, Right.
But it is.
But it's all in the same.
It's all in the name of good variety.
I want to bring readers authenticity.
Right.
I have a loaded doublequestion for you as.
As we start making our way,you built a strong name and reputation
(34:06):
that the thriller space.
I mean, all you got to do, bythe way, ladies and gentlemen, is
just open up the book.
It's not one page of accolades.
Oh, it's not two.
It's not three.
It's not four.
It's not five.
It's not six, seven.
It's eight and a half.
I have to convince you that Iknow what I'm doing.
Well, can I just say, betweenus girls, you don't have any.
(34:29):
You do not have to convinceanybody, but.
Oh, thank you.
What part of this genre thatyou have mastered still excites and
or challenges you as a writer?
That's point A.
So which.
What still.
What.
What still just lights you up?
Conversely, what's the onething that drives you bonkers?
(34:51):
What lights me up is creatingcharacters like Sunny and Xander
and London and Mackenzie andeven Figgy the dog.
I like people study and makingthem real.
What I still struggle with.
That's the second part.
(35:11):
It's because I write first person.
It's knowing when to stop withmy introspection because I.
I personally have so manythings running around in my head,
and I'm constantly questioningthings and wondering about things
because we be learning.
And so my.
My editor still helps me say,you don't need that, you don't need
(35:34):
that.
You don't need that.
So learning how to edit someof that out is something that I'm,
you know, still learning.
And I'm getting better at itnow that I'm more aware of it.
But, yeah, I like.
I like creating.
And even the cities arecharacters to me.
So creating these fullyrealized people and places and then,
(35:54):
you know, giving you enoughand shutting up without saying so
much about it.
All right, since we're socerebral, I'm going to finish.
I got one more good cerebralquestion, if that's the right word.
And I don't want to spoilanything on Fog and Fury, but it
touches on themes of identityand justice.
(36:15):
Yeah.
Now, how do you explore moralambiguity, which has a couple of
big dishes of it served up inhere in your characters?
Without tipping the scales toofar in.
One direction, I try and haveall kind of all thought and all philosophies
represented, and then my maincharacter selecting one of those
(36:38):
and charging ahead and dealingwith whatever Repercussions that
come as a result of it.
So I, Yeah, I have my Greekchorus and everyone presenting their
case, and then Sunny saying.
Or all my characters saying,I'm gonna take that one.
And I hope it's the best choice.
And sometimes it's not.
And that's what drives, youknow, makes it exciting.
(37:01):
So I chose my own adventure.
What happens now?
So, yeah, when.
So, you know, you.
I, I guess I don't even thinkabout it.
Are all your books in first person?
All except maybe, I think.
And Now She's Gone was writtenin third person, but I would say
(37:23):
98% of them are first person.
Because I remember two yearsago, as we mentioned at the beginning
of the show, what neverhappened was first person.
Because I remember thinking, bang.
And by the way, 24,000 stellarreviews on Amazon, might I say, which
is cray cray for two years.
Cray cray for two years.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess.
(37:43):
Do you ever find yourselfgoing, you know what?
I'm gonna mix this thing upand I'm gonna write third.
Or I'm gonna get, I'm gonnaget third.
I'm gonna do a mixture ofthirds or maybe a first and third.
So I did a first and third forLand of Shadows.
Usually my books are firstperson present tense.
(38:04):
This is first person past tense.
So I kind of stick it up there.
Yeah, slow down.
I know, I know, I know.
Innovating all the time.
But I feel most comfortablewriting is already hard and my time
is already limited.
And so I'm like, well, whychoose to do something new in that
(38:28):
way?
I choose new types of storiesand, you know, places and all that
type of thing.
At least I'm familiar andcomfortable with the mechanics of
how I'm telling it.
So one day, when I have a lotof time, I'm going to try and do
a third person.
Well, this, this begs thisquestion, because I know you work
(38:49):
a solid nine to five.
I mean, you're, you're, you're stacked.
So how do you squeeze in?
And this is, this is no light feed.
Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna.
If I were clocking it, I wouldsay 360.
Let me see how close I am.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
Look at me.
Not to toot my horn, but 370.
Yeah, 374.
(39:10):
Yeah, that's a, that's a hefty.
You know, it's not quite a,it's not quite a workout, but, I
mean, no.
How do you squeeze it in?
So I, I, I still.
Except for that Week of vacation.
I wake up at 4 o' clock everymorning to write until like 7 and
then do the business ofwriting and then I start my day job
(39:31):
and then at after work I will.
If I need to do sometranscribing or something that's,
that doesn't require heavy thought.
I will do that until aboutlike from 3 to 5 or 3 to 5:30 and
that's, that's it.
Yeah.
And Christmas morning.
I don't work on Christmas morning.
(39:51):
David.
I've got to draw the line somewhere.
Got it.
Yeah, I get it.
I get it done.
Because I absolutely love it.
I really, really do lovetelling stories and meeting these
people and putting my TippiHedron type characters in their faces
and you know, it's a joy to me.
(40:13):
Yeah.
And it shows.
And so shows.
I'm with you.
I'm a big fan of four o' clock.
Now.
My, my wake up is probably.
Well, today was.
Yeah, it was 4:55.
So it's somewhere in that 4:30to 5:30 zone.
You know why the world isstill quiet.
It's still quiet.
You can't do dishes or laundry.
(40:34):
You don't feel guilty for, youknow, not being, you know, the day
jobber or the parent or thespouse or any of that.
It's just you and the computerand your pets.
And also your mind hasn'tpicked up all that monkey chatter
that's gonna, that's gonnaroll in somewhere around 7, 8, 9
(40:54):
o' clock, you know?
Yeah.
No, I always say I give my,myself the best words and then I
give my employer what comes after.
Well done.
All right, I'm gonna do aquick little round because I haven't
done this forever and you andI have such a great chemistry.
Before we wrap, I want to dofive rapid fire questions.
Some of them have been touched on.
Okay.
Some of them had not.
(41:16):
It's the first thing that popsinto your head.
Okay.
Plot first or character first character.
The book that made you want tobecome a writer, it by Stephen King
is a good one.
Your ideal writing fuel.
Coffee, Tea, wine or chaos?
Coffee with some chaos.
(41:38):
I'll have a coffee with theside of chaos.
Please, please.
All right.
Favorite weapon in a thriller?
Psychological manipulation ora good old fashioned gun?
Psychological manipulation.
And we all knew that one.
Right.
And fog or fury?
Which one best describes yourwriting style?
More fury.
Yeah.
(41:59):
Fury.
Yeah.
Back to the horoscope.
In this horror skate.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I always close with one question.
I'm going to be real curiousto see how it has changed in the
two years.
How has it matured in the twoyears since we last spoke?
What is that?
Best writing advice for mylisteners who want to be writers.
(42:20):
Put your butt in the seat.
That's it.
You gotta, you gotta be thereand just every day or as close to
every day as you can.
No, every day.
I can do it as I'm doing it.
Every day.
You can it every day.
Yeah.
Yep.
I feel a song coming on.
I love big books and I cannot lie.
And I cannot lie.
(42:42):
Well folks, once again thebook is Fog and Fury.
You're going to love this one.
Go to Rachel Howel.com tolearn more.
And Rachel, as always, you areone of the best.
So delightful.
Thank you so much.
I always have fun talking with you.
I did not ask but is there.
(43:03):
Wait a minute, you did Mistand Malice.
Another good title.
Uh huh huh.
I'm leaning into this kind ofPI thing man.
I love it.
And if the same folks atAmazon, Thomas and Mercer at in charge,
there's gonna be another sexybook cover in the making.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
(43:24):
Thank you again so much.
Thank you.
Thanks once again to RachelHousel hall and the book Fog and
Fury.
This one is a killer read folks.
If you'd like to be on theshow, do me a favor and drop us a
Note@the thrillerzonemail.comthethrillerzonemail.com now, not
everyone could get on the showand in the spirit of transparency,
(43:48):
I'm going to take a little bitlighter load during the summer months.
I know you're thinking butDave, I gotta have my episode every
single week.
I know, I get it.
I'm the same way.
I love to know that there'salways an episode dropping.
And as you now know in seasonnine we're dropping our shows on
Wednesdays instead of Thursdays.
But I do need.
Daddy needs a little bit of a break.
(44:08):
Daddy wants to enjoy his summer.
He has burned through the lastfour, three summers and he wants
a little bit of time off, ifyou know what I'm saying.
So if you don't get a showevery single week, bear with me.
I'm trying to get somevacation myself too.
But if you'd like to get intouch the thrillerzonemail.com of
course you can always reach usat the thrillerzone.com that's right,
(44:31):
your one stop shop foreverything, thrillers.
I mean if you're, if you'reenjoying thrillers, whether it's
fiction, television, film,this is the place.
We've been voted your numberone thriller podcast in the world,
and we have to work hard tokeep it that way.
So thank you for your patiencewhile I take a little bit of time
(44:51):
off throughout the summer.
And of course, we'll alwaystry to fit in everyone we possibly
can.
So until next time, I'm yourhost, Dave Temple.
Thank you so much for being there.
Thank you so much forsupporting us.
And I'll see you next time foranother edition of the Thriller Zone,
your number one podcast forstories that thrill the Thriller
Zone.
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