June 26, 2025 • 44 mins
Today, host Dave Temple is diving into the nitty-gritty of the publishing world with the legendary Robert Gottlieb, the chairman of Trident Media Group.
Robert has the inside scoop on how books go from mere words on a page to bestsellers that everyone’s talking about. We’re pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to run a top-tier talent agency and what separates a good writer from a great one.
As we chat, Robert shares his journey from being an assistant at the William Morris Agency to establishing himself as a titan in the literary agency world. He highlights the importance of understanding the unique qualities that make an author stand out in a sea of submissions.
We explore the nuances between literary and commercial fiction, uncovering what truly captivates editors and readers alike. Robert's insights into the shifting dynamics of publishing—especially with the rise of eBooks and the influence of social media on book sales—paint a vivid picture of today's literary landscape.
Get ready for a masterclass in how to navigate the complexities of getting published, with plenty of anecdotes and wisdom from Robert's extensive career. Whether you're a budding author or just a curious listener, there's gold to be mined in this conversation.
Learn more at TridentMediaGroup.com and WATCH/LISTEN/FOLLOW us at TheThrillerZone.com
Companies and people mentioned in this episode:
- Trident Media Group
- William Morris Agency
- Knopf
- Bertelsmann
- Alba Michel
- Frank Herbert
- Brian Herbert
- Leon Uris
- Random House
- Dune
- Sony
- Lionsgate
- Putnam Group
Keywords: thriller podcast, literary agent insights, Robert Gottlieb interview, publishing industry trends, how to write a bestseller, author career development, Trident Media Group, best practices for authors, commercial fiction vs literary fiction, storytelling techniques, international book markets, marketing for authors, navigating publishing contracts, building an author brand, literary agency secrets, author representation tips, the future of publishing, writing craft advice, book marketing strategies, understanding genre fiction
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome to the 234thepisode of the Thriller Zone.
I'm your host, David Temple,and I am glad you are here.
Folks, today is going to bequite a day for you.
It is on the shorter side, butboy, is it sweet.
My guest today is Robert Gottlieb.
You ever heard of TridentMedia Group?
(00:21):
Yeah.
He happens to be the chairmanand the father of Mark Gottlieb,
who's been on the show twice.
And if you don't know thatname, well, trust me, the publishing
world certainly does.
He's worked with some of thebiggest authors on the planet, helped
launch careers, and built oneof the most respected literary agencies
in the world.
(00:42):
Today, we are going to kind ofpull back the curtain on what it
really takes to run a top tiertalent agency.
How books become bestsellers,and what separates a good writer
from a great one.
What's it take to make it inthis business?
Whether you're an aspiringauthor or just curious how the book
world works, guess what?
You're in for a treat.
(01:03):
Without any further ado,please welcome Robert Gottlieb to
the Thriller Zone.
Before we start, do you prefer Robert.
Bob, Sally, I'd like yourhybrid, if you don't mind.
I love it.
I like formal names.
I mean, my name's David, butyou can say Dave, DT D in the house.
Okay, David.
I'll call you David.
(01:24):
Okay.
So nice to meet.
By the way, the reason I likeRobert is when I started as an assistant
in the William Morris Agency'sliterary department to Owen Laster,
then one of the great agentsof the 20th century, Bob Gottlieb
ran Knopf.
(01:44):
So Owen said to me, you reallyshould go by Robert so people don't
confuse you with Bob Gottliebat Knopf.
And I said, okay, I'll take Robert.
Yeah, Yeah.
I could see how that couldpresent a wee bit of a challenge.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, tell me if this is true, Robert.
Is it true that you went downthe hall and said to your son, can
(02:07):
I get on Dave Temple'sThriller Zone?
It's true.
That just blows my head right up.
Thank you very much.
Oh, it's my pleasure, my pleasure.
I've heard great things aboutyou and, you know, Mark has been
encouraging me to do more ofthis type of work.
(02:29):
Normally, I'm used to being inthe background and not talking about
myself or my client'sbusiness, but he encouraged me to
do it as well.
So I said, sure, let's do it.
Well, two things.
I'm very flattered I'm honored.
We're going to get to all youraccolades in a second and your son
(02:50):
is one of my favorite peoplewalking the planet.
He is just a gem.
He's a great guy.
He's a great guy.
And you know something?
Just a quick little anecdote.
Frederick Forsyth, a very goodwriter in London, a best selling
author.
When Mark was 11 years old or12 years old, I had to drop off a
(03:12):
contract for him in Londonwhile I was there working and Mark
came with me and Forsyth andMark spent two hours talking about
Forsyth's work.
And I was just sitting therein awe.
Mark had read it, Mark wasfamiliar with it, and Forsyth was
just amazed at theconversation between the two of them.
(03:34):
So Mark has always been a booklover all his life.
Well, it's so obvious.
We've had two conversations.
He's been on the show twiceand both times he's just, he's elegant,
he's insightful, he's really,really smart and, and he's so gracious.
So he's just that perfect combination.
I don't know what kind of anagent he is, but I'm hoping to one
(03:56):
day.
And.
Well, you know, on PublishersMarketplace under thriller, agents,
agents making deals for thrillers.
He's number one in the, in the world.
Wow.
I did not know that.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, he learned from his dad,of course.
Apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree, right?
(04:17):
Yep, yep.
Well, I would like to.
First of all, we're launching June.
By the time this show drops,it'll be a couple of weeks into the
month.
But I often, as you may or maynot know, I interview the best authors
in the world.
And I like to step outside thesandbox every once in a while and
pull in guys like yourself,gals in the business who really are
(04:41):
kind of sitting in the bigoffices, some of the ivory towers,
but some of the, you know,back offices, and just let us writers
know how the sausage is made.
So I would love to startbecause I'm just an inquisitive idiot.
I'd like to go inside yourworld for a minute and just kind
of, kind of get a feel for atypical day of someone running one
(05:03):
of the most successfulliterary agencies in the world.
Okay.
All right, so you want me to start?
Yeah, please do.
Yeah, we're rolling.
Good, good.
So, you know, you go into theoffice, you have your cup of coffee,
relax a little while.
Agents come in, you know,support staff come in, agents come
(05:23):
in in the morning.
And you know, we start off bycommunicating with each other, talking
to each other, what's going onin the industry?
Have you heard anything?
Are you trying, you know, areyou talking to authors that you need
help with?
Where I can get on the phonewith the agent and talk to a potential
(05:44):
client who's considering Trident?
Talk about what we do, how wedo it.
We sell direct in the foreign market.
We started that trend when I was.
When I started Triton, 99% ofagents sold through foreign agents,
and they didn't get reallygood service for it.
(06:07):
You know, boxes of books wouldbe sent to these agents from agencies
and publishers, and they wouldbe shipped over in boxes to buyers
and hope that one would get taken.
And I felt that that was notonly an inefficient way of doing
business, but not really asmart way of representing authors,
because every author isunique, even though they may be writing
(06:28):
in the same genre.
Each author's unique, eachvoice is unique.
You know, each history is special.
And so we decided to selldirect in major markets where we
were talking to editors andpublishers in the UK and throughout
Europe and other parts of theworld where we could pitch our clients.
(06:48):
And who better to do that thanpeople who work with them every day
and understand their work,appreciate their work.
And if you sit with apublisher like Alba Michel at the
Frankfurt Book Fair fromFrance, and the publisher says, we
need a thriller, we know whoexactly to submit because we know
her taste.
(07:09):
Whereas sub agents would just,you know, ship over a box of books
and hope that, you know, AlbaMichel would like one of them.
Oh, wow.
So when I get on, when I talkto my colleagues about how, you know,
I can help them sign clientsand speak to.
To what we focus on, which istheir careers, it's a different kind
(07:29):
of conversation than theywould often hear from other agencies.
Most agencies are very small, David.
They don't have the kind ofreach that we do.
Many of them don't go toFrankfurt or London Book Fair.
They depend solely on subagents to handle that for them.
So it's a, you know, we be,you know, so this is part of what
(07:52):
I do.
It's a different approach.
It's very career oriented.
The agency is focused on career.
It's not just an individualagent who does it, whether it has
to do with the work that we doin our contracts department.
You know, publishing hasbecome very, very hard on authors.
(08:13):
And, you know, when you havebig companies like Bertelsmann that
refuse to budge on ebookroyalties, not only in the United
States, but globally, it's achallenge to.
To Put together deals that aregoing to be very beneficial to authors.
Beyond the advance.
The advance is an important component.
(08:34):
But all the terms in thecontract are very important because
in the United States, thebuying term of copyright in Britain
too, then you have licensingagreements outside the United States.
And how all that isconstructed in contracts is very
important.
That's, you know, somethingthat we specialize in as well.
(08:56):
That's one reason, you know,the Frank that Brian Herbert or the
Frank Herbert estate and Ihave been working together for so
long because you know, we doincredible work for them abroad and
audio is another world.
That's that you have to have,you know, specialization and understand
because that's also alicensing business, although there
are some agents and to giveaway those rights, you know, for
(09:19):
term of copyright, which is aterrible mistake because you know,
the, the licensingarrangements that you make come up
every five or seven or eightyears and for renewal and that's
money in the pocket for the author.
That's how they pay their bills.
Well, there is so manyquestions I want to throw at you
and I know I've only got 30minutes, so I know that I'll, I'll
(09:43):
shoot to it.
You've, you've shaped thecareers are some of the biggest names
in the publishing world.
I mean, what is it that yousee in a writer that or a manuscript
that tells you now this one isworth fighting for?
You know, it's an interestingquestion because it's really a combination
of components.
(10:04):
It's the writing, of course,it's the storytelling capability.
Commercial fiction is verydifferent than literary fiction.
You know, one is, you know,literary fiction is like going to
a fine arts museum and lovingand being, you know, getting connected
with the work in, you know, ina certain high end style.
(10:27):
Commercial fiction is different.
You have to be a good writer,but you also have to be an incredible
storyteller and storytellingand commercial fiction is somewhat
different than what you see inliterary fiction or a lot different.
It can be a lot different.
And you know what?
On that point, let's, let'sdrill down one level for listeners
(10:47):
who may not, who may be new tothe business and don't know quite
that difference.
How would you differentiatebetween those two besides what you
just referenced with the experience?
Well, you know, I think thatwith literary fiction, and I'm just
speaking in very broad termshere because, you know, I don't want,
you know, it be interpreted asthe only, you know, only perspective.
(11:08):
But with literary fiction,it's an artistic, strictly an artistic
adventure.
It's Like a Broadway play.
You can build a Broadway playaround a group of people at a dinner
table and you're listening totheir discussion and their trials
and tribulations.
(11:29):
In commercial fiction, it'sreally about a engine, an engine
that drives the story from thevery first page, hooking, know the
book reader, the consumer,driving it through to the very end.
And that's one of thefundamental differences.
(11:49):
It's a one is more can be amore of a micro intellectual understanding
and interest in, you know,what literary fiction, some literary
fiction is versus a big, youknow, stage, big story.
You know, I often tellcommercial authors that if you write,
(12:10):
if your writing is great, butyour story doesn't work in terms
of big fiction, it's verytough if your writing is mediocre,
but the story you're tellingis out of this world as a thriller
writer, the likelihood is it'sgonna sell.
Yeah.
So these are some of thefundamental differences.
(12:31):
Now, this is a slightlydifferent tangent, but I was having
lunch with my old buddy JackStewart, who is a military thriller
wr just over the weekend, andwe were talking about.
We were just.
We like to talk shop and business.
We were talking about romance.
We just brought it up.
And we were talking about thedifference between the, like, different
genres within that and how themarket sells.
(12:52):
And it's so funny because itcomes down to you might be telling
the same story.
There's two points I want to make.
You might be telling the samestory, but in one genre of romance,
like say, for instance, darkromance, that impact will be different
than just contemporary.
And then we were talkingabout, you know, what, what makes
that so successful.
(13:12):
And, and it's.
It's kind of hard tounderstand fully, but.
And I don't know that you deala whole lot in that world, but I
actually do.
I have a lot of experiencewith that world.
You know, genre fiction isagain, different than literary fiction.
Literary fiction is you startwith a blank canvas and you paint,
you know, a, A, you know, abeautiful painting, that is considered
(13:37):
fine art.
But in the world of women'sfiction, and I'm giving you a broad
answer, David, if that's okay,is that there are rules of the genre.
Every genre has rules.
And so what's expected inhistorical romance fiction is different
than you're going to find incontemporary romance fiction in terms
(14:00):
of what, you know, the book,you know, how the book is constructed,
the storytelling, and from the setting.
For instance, if you're doinga contemporary women's fiction novel,
you're not going to doflashbacks, generally to, you know,
to Victorian England, it'sbecause what you're doing is then
(14:20):
you're crossing over.
And a publisher is not goingto respond well to that because it
becomes a much more difficultsale in terms of what are they selling
to the, you know, to theretailers, what are they telling
them that the book is.
That makes so much sense.
Speaking of, I'm just going tostick with romance because I, I,
we were, we were amazed, I'mamazed at what book talk TikTok's
(14:43):
channel of books has done.
And I know that publishing'schanged a lot over the years, especially
in your business, and it'sreally changed.
It feels like more in the last10 or 15 years.
And so between ebooks andaudiobooks, as you mentioned and
TikTok and even AI, what doyou think has shifted the most for
you and what still holds trueno matter what the trends of the
(15:06):
market does?
Well, I think first, greatwriting is number one.
Number two is that theblending of different genres oftentimes
leads into a new part or newgenre of fiction.
For instance, let's takefantasy romance.
(15:29):
You know, five years ago, 10years ago, if you tried to sell a
fantasy romance, publisherswould say, well, what is it?
Is it fantasy or is it romance?
But that's also a generationaldifference because so many young
people are growing up withgaming and, you know, certain types
(15:50):
of, you know, movies and television.
And so they're used to anelement that before would not have
been considered, you know, asaleable work because of the crossover
aspect.
Now that crossover of romanceand fantasy is, you know, generating
a lot of book sales.
(16:11):
Yeah, well, it blows my mindbecause we were just taught again
to reference that conversation.
The volume of books sold backto your background and how you started
Trident and what a powerhousereputation it has, not in just books
but to selling in film and tv,which is one thing I'm particularly
(16:33):
interested having come from infront of the camera, being an actor
in television and film andthen behind the camera is both a
writer, producer, director ofa film.
I am fascinated by that.
And now as a writer wanting totake my stories to the screen.
I'm always trying to drilldown on that.
What do you feel?
Because I want, want Robert'sinside scoop.
(16:55):
What do you feel is, makes astory scream worthy in your eyes?
Well, you know, actually it'sa complicated landscape because what
works one day for Hollywooddoesn't work the next day.
If you go in and you say thisis very similar to, you know, this
(17:16):
kind of film or this kind ofStreaming television project.
They'll say, well, that's beendone, even though it may be terrific.
So it's an ever shiftinglandscape, ground under your feet.
It used to be, for instance,that you could only sell frontless
(17:36):
titles.
Hollywood did not want to hearabout what the author wrote before
or what was available beforebecause they viewed that as being
all passed on.
Dune is a good example.
We represent the Dune estate, right?
So the.
So Dune a decade ago wouldhave been passed on in Hollywood,
(17:58):
but today Hollywood lovesbacklist titles because they need
it for their engine andthey're buying properties like Dune,
which are outstanding,fantastic properties written in the
1960s.
I represented Leon Uris estate.
He was the author of Exodusthat starred Paul Newman.
(18:21):
We just sold Trinity.
A big story about the Irish inAmerica has historical background,
contemporary background.
That book was also written inthe 60s or early 70s.
So there's a ferociousappetite for material now.
And the old rules don't applyin terms of, you know, we don't want
(18:42):
to see something that is evensix months old because it's been
passed on by so many people.
The other thing, of course ishigh concept is very important now.
You know that because you'vebeen around Hollywood and yourself
and you know that, you know,that point of view, high concept
means what is the marketingangle, you know, that they see in
the story that drives theinterest in the film.
(19:05):
We represent a book called Wonderful.
That book was, you know,starred Julia Roberts.
It's been on the New YorkTimes best seller list in the top
five since 2012.
We just sold it for a Broadway musical.
That book was rejected allover New York by publishers.
It's a middle grade bookbecause it was outside the wheelhouse
(19:27):
of what publishers believedmiddle grade students would read.
Now this book changed thewhole business because once it became
a huge success, everypublisher was chasing that story.
So Hollywood is also a littlelike that too.
Whatever works that, you know,they're interested in, it gets their
attention.
(19:47):
And then of course, it's, youknow, it depends on the, you know,
the genre, the dynamics of the book.
If you're dealing with acompany like Lionsgate, there are
certain types of books theywant to buy that they're, you know,
that fit with their, you know,you know, business plans.
And, you know, they oftentimeslook for books that represent ideas
(20:08):
and concepts that have workedfor them in the past.
You hear this phrase a lot in Hollywood.
Give me this, give me this.
But different.
Give me the saying, but different.
And I'm.
It's all.
It always makes me Chuckle.
Because I'm like, well, do youwant that or do you want that?
With a twinge of this.
And then, you know, when theworld started becoming.
(20:30):
And it's not a log line, butit's X meets Y in a blank kind of
world, that became kind of the.
It feels like to me, youcorrect me if I'm wrong.
The go to way to pitch a story.
Because it.
What it does is it.
It expedites the process.
It gets the listener, reader,viewer right to the point right away.
Correct?
Correct.
But at the same time, David,Hollywood is made up.
(20:53):
95% of people can say no.
5% could say yes.
So when you're meeting withpeople at production houses and studios,
they want to cast a wide net,hoping that something in that net
(21:14):
connects.
I remember meeting with Sonyyears ago and discussing a wonderful
book called the Gray man byMark Greaney.
And, you know, their take onit was very different than the take
of the company that ultimatelybought it and made it into a Netflix
(21:36):
series.
So part of it also is theindividual that you're talking to
and whether or not thatindividual can really connect with
the story itself, because the.
There's such a prolific volumeof stuff coming at you any day, and
I can't even imagine.
I've talked to Mark aboutthis, and he talks about the TBR
list that's just stacked up inhis office, and he.
(21:59):
I know he works weekendsbecause we have chatted occasionally,
but I'm.
It always feels daunting forus writers, how to break into the
business.
And let's say someone's tryingto break in today.
What do you think?
And this is going to sound alittle simplistic, but I know I've
now already picked up on thefact that you really good at drilling
down what gives them the best shot.
(22:20):
Is it.
Is it an amazing story?
Is it the thing that we alwayshear about at writers conference,
that killer platform?
Is it a little bit of both?
Is it something extra I'm notthinking about?
Well, I think it's a littlebit of both.
I think it's also importantwhen a writer is seeking representation
that they do their researchand make sure the agent or agents
(22:40):
that they're submitting to arethe right agents for the kind of
book that they're writing.
What we look for, it's very instinctual.
When we look at something andit's very raw and we make a decision
to take it on, we do itbecause of our experience of what
(23:00):
we know, what works in themarketplace of the written word.
On the page, I use the wordpage, but of course, everything is
so much electronic.
But I really look at it fromthat standpoint because as you use
the word drill down, youreally have to do that to make a
determination if something is saleable.
And oftentimes agents have todo a lot of editorial work on books
(23:22):
before it becomes saleable.
You know, especially in theliterary field, you know, we have
agents like Alan Levine whorepresent Pulitzer Prize winning
authors like Marilyn Robinson,who wrote Gilead, you know, and you
know, she represented for manyyears, Russell Banks.
All these authors love thefact that their edit agents can edit
(23:49):
books for them, can help themstrengthen the book before it goes
out.
So a book is so, so rawoftentimes that if you don't do that
work on the manuscript, you'rejust not going to sell it.
Now oftentimes there'ssomething about the book that's magical.
When I took on Tom Clancy andrepresented the majority of his work,
(24:12):
I talked about Red Star,rather Hunt for October with publishers
in New York.
And they all told me it wastoo technical.
Too technical.
That was their answer.
And a paperback house underthe Putnam Group, a military imprint,
bought the book for $50,000and they ended up selling 6 million
(24:35):
copies.
So part of it is that yougotta know the buyers, you gotta
know who is going to takerisks, who is interested in what
you're representing.
So it's all these differentcomponents, David, that go into the
process.
You bring up an exceptional point.
I was recently talking toEmily Bessler about a similar thing
(24:57):
and she referenced.
We were talking about howimportant is getting an agent.
I mean, there's a lot ofsuccess, Robert, I don't need to
tell you, in self publishingfor the people who do it right, or
a particular genre.
And we're talking about how important.
And she goes, it is moreimportant than you can ever imagine.
It's not just a matter about,you know, being able to, you know,
(25:19):
do the deals and all that coolstuff and take their percentage and
so forth.
She goes, it is this magic.
The editor or the agent knowsthe editors, the publishers, and
all the little differentpieces of the machinery that make
that will bring your book tobest success.
And when I.
And she really drew down witha great anecdote about Vince Flynn
(25:39):
about how the way he started and.
And he was in the hands of thewrong person and he couldn't get
arrested, all of a sudden itgot somehow to her and the rest is
history.
So what you're saying ismirroring so many things that we
often hear Little bits andpieces about.
And.
And I'm.
A lot of work.
A lot of work goes into.
(26:00):
Oftentimes a manuscript beforeit even gets into the hands of an
editor for the editor to dotheir job, which.
Is an enormous part of the.
I think an editor, I'mspeaking as.
I'm a specialist and so don'ttake it that way.
But I think it's almost asimportant as the story itself because
they can handcraft and moveand finesse is the word, the meat
(26:26):
of the story to make it itsbest possible.
And also the characters theyknow, the consumer, the book reader,
and what people enjoy.
For instance, when my mentor'sfriend sold a book called the Godfather,
(26:47):
that book was rejected allover New York by publishers.
David.
Because publishers said atthat time, why would anyone buy a
book where the lead characteris a mafia guy and so unsympathetic
as a result?
So the agent called a friendof his after the book had been rejected
all over New York and said,look, do me a favor, please publish
(27:10):
this book.
The manuscript pages hadcoffee stains on them, had been through
so many hands, so many people,and the publisher, who was a great
friend of the agent, said,okay, I'll do that.
And the rest is history.
How many did it sell into?
Tens of millions.
Right?
Tens of millions.
Just.
And now there's aquintessential example not to take
(27:33):
too much time on it.
There's a great example ofsomeone who had the tenacity to stick
with it and the people aroundhim to have the vision to pursue
it.
But the magic of when you havea good story, well told.
Yeah.
And, you know, of course theother aspect of it is that, you know,
(27:53):
you have to find an agentwho's going to be dogged.
You know, it can take.
Sometimes it's a quick groupof publishers looking at it and someone
buying it.
Sometimes it takes six months,a year, two years.
But, you know, if you believein the author that you're representing
and you know what an agentoften can do is dig down deep into
(28:14):
the industry and find theright person ultimately to publish
the book.
There is a note I made tomyself as you were talking, because
it's something that pops up somany times in my world.
I am not the biggest fan of rules.
I mean, I understand there arerules when you're trying to craft
a story, but like rules in thebig picture.
(28:35):
Sometimes I think rules aremade by people who just want to have
control and they may not havethe smarts to back it up.
So I've always Part of it'sprobably because I'm a PK preacher's
kid and I'm always, you know.
Or they're working fororganizations that set the rules
that they have to live within.
Exactly.
So sometimes I listen to theformula and the rules and I go, yeah,
(28:57):
we'll figure it out along the way.
Because you've just told usnow about three solid stories where
somebody decided to play, notnecessarily with the rules, a little
more against the rules thanthey won.
So in interest of beingexpeditious, you started off the
conversation with somethingthat was really simmering on the
back of my noggin.
(29:17):
And that was we were talkingabout international sales and how
Triton has done so well overseas.
I want to know, and youtouched on it, what's happening in
international publishing thatmight actually surprise my listener?
And is there anythingunexpected, like unexpected markets
that are heating up?
(29:38):
Well, I think first of all,the culture in foreign markets is
different than the culture inAmerican markets.
American markets publishing isdominated by the business side.
And no matter how much aneditor loves a book, if the business
people behind the scenes, themarketing people, the salespeople,
(30:02):
the art people, all the peoplethat sit on the editorial board,
acquisition board, if they'renot on board, the editor's not going
to be able to buy the book.
Nine times out of 10 in Europeand in other countries around the
world, it's really more author centric.
And so those publishing housesrevolve around what the great editors
(30:24):
in these countries want to acquire.
They have to get behind it.
They can share their opinion,but they're not going to be the driving
force behind it.
So it's a different kind ofmindset about authors and publishing,
storytelling, the material.
(30:44):
And so again, when you go tothe fairs and you meet with all these
buyers and we go To Germanywith four agents, we have about 350
meetings set up over a fiveday period at the fair where we pitch
our author's books.
You have to understand as anAmerican agent how to talk to them,
(31:05):
how to get their interest.
For instance, I say to myagents, if you're going to talk about
a book, and an editor from aGerman publisher indicates that they're
kind of lukewarm to it, don'tkeep pitching it, stop, get off that
book and get on to the next book.
They're very polite.
That's their way of showingthat they're not interested.
(31:26):
But sometimes American agentswho are very enthusiastic and they
want to continue pushing andcontinue on with that editor, and
that editor has more meetingsyou have more meetings.
So there are techniques andunderstandings that you have to develop
as an agent dealing ininternational markets.
But most importantly is theylook at books differently than we
(31:48):
do.
They have a much moreliterary, artistic outlook, even
in commercial fiction, thanthe way that we do.
We have, you know, I'm notsaying we don't have that, but they
approach it on a differentbasis, you know, in countries like
Eastern Europe and Russia, youknow, when we think of, you know,
(32:10):
entertaining the kids, we takethem to the park, we take them to
the movies, they take them to museums.
That's their idea of a day outwith the family.
So, again, it's just adifferent mindset that you have to
understand in order to work,you know, with them in their markets.
Such good insights.
Now, I know, you know,Trident, you've built one of the
(32:33):
biggest agencies in the world.
What's your secret to buildingthe team that you have, keeping them
sharp in an industry thatseems to always be shifting?
I know you.
You've been at it a while, soI want to know that secret sauce.
ROBERT Well, I think it's,again, a number of things, David.
One is, is that pickthoroughbreds when you're promoting
(32:56):
people or bringing people in,like Don Fair is a thoroughbred in
nonfiction.
There probably isn't anyone asgood as Don Fehr in nonfiction in
the industry.
He used to be the publisher,you know, of Smithsonian.
He was a senior editor atViking and the other.
So when I pick a thoroughbred,I don't like to, you know, ride them,
(33:18):
put my foot on their neck.
I I want them to run the raceand win the race.
That's.
Those are the kinds of peopleI like to work with.
Secondly, of course, is tolead by example.
So I'm out in front with the troops.
I'm not, you know, sitting inthe background, you know.
You know, just watchingcommissions come into the company.
(33:40):
I like to lead from the front.
I like to, you know, help themin that leadership and also guide
them and give them support inwhat they're doing and be, you know,
very active in their business lives.
You just said something.
My first career, Robert, wasin Radio.
I did 25 years on major marketmorning shows, New York, LA, Chicago,
(34:02):
so forth.
And I learned that the bossesthat I were the best, the ones that
I really admired, were the ones.
And you use the exact phrase Isaid you.
I would say to my boss, you'vehired a thoroughbred.
This sounds egotistical.
I don't mean it that way.
You've hired a thoroughbredwho has spent his entire young years
(34:23):
trying to get to this point.
So let me run, because ifyou're just going to hold that rein,
I'm not going to get anywhere.
So I've always found that theleaders that are really.
That really make a differenceare the ones that find the thoroughbreds.
Let them run.
And number two is, are willingto get in that race in the dirt,
roll up their sleeves withthem, because the guys who sit in
(34:44):
the big ivory towers, it justdoesn't work.
So.
And as you point out, it'salso creating opportunity for people
as a leader of a company sothat they can sign more clients.
They have resources that otheragencies don't have.
(35:05):
You know, a lot of agencies,and I'm, you know, speaking in general,
have, you know, everyone'svery competitive.
Oftentimes they don't likeeach other.
There was one major agencywhere the two heads of the literary
department didn't speak for 20years to each other.
So I'm just the reverse of that.
(35:26):
I believe in communication.
I also have a very strongethic and ethos about treating people
with respect and kindness.
And a lot of the people thatwe have at Trident came up through
the ranks.
We didn't go out and have tohire them.
We developed them ourselves.
Now, the downside of that is,of course, is that then other agencies
(35:48):
come and try to pick them off.
You put a big investment inthem, you put a lot of time and energy
into them, but nonetheless,you want to have an environment that
encourages people to make thekind of commitment in life that you
need to do to become aliterary agent.
I'm not going to take the timeto go find it because I have run
(36:09):
out of time.
But there is a listener whowrote in and mentioned you specifically
when your son was on the show.
And they said something to theeffect of they had heard enough about
your reputation and followedyour career enough and talked to
people around you that theysaid the reason they like, liked
(36:31):
the show at the time, that hadMark Gottlieb, that also was led
by his father, that they sorespected the whole Trident mission,
that that's what gave themsuch great respect.
And I thought, now that'sreally interesting.
And this.
This guy went on for quitesome bit, and he's just an average
listener because I followed upwith him.
(36:52):
But that has got to make youfeel good and is a great reflection
of the way you lead your team.
And it's also, if I may sayso, David, it is, you know, a.
Throughout the entire agency,it's the kind of feeling that I Like
to create with people and forpeople to feel secure, people to
(37:13):
feel that they have, that I'mon their side, my door is always
open.
I love having conversationswith them about, you know, anything
they want to talk about.
But at the end of the day,it's also all about the author.
If you're not really an authorcentric company, you know, either
you're chasing commissions oryou're, you know, trying to, you
(37:35):
know, just be a deal maker,you know, I mean, there are companies
that do that.
But, you know, our mission,our focus has always been.
My focus has always been as an advocate.
Not just as an agent and acareer manager, but an advocate for
authors.
The reason I take credit forthis, the reason is a 25% royalty
(37:56):
in ebooks today is because of me.
I went to war.
I went to war with randomhouse over 30 years ago.
They wanted to do an entirelydifferent kind of construct for ebook
royalties.
And with the, you know, weightof Trident behind me, not Trident,
sorry, with William MorrisAgency behind me, with my mentor
(38:17):
Owen Laster, we fought off anattempt to really rip off authors
on ebooks.
And we didn't have to do that.
That way we could have justthought about it for ourselves.
But I treated it as anindustry wide discussion that had
to take place for the sake ofauthors and their income.
Man, I could sit here and talkto you forever.
(38:38):
And I told Mark this one day,I'm like, what I want to do is I
want to get up to New York andsit down in Robert's big office in
the corner there with a view,I'm assuming, and have the three
of us just crack open themicrophones and chat away.
Because I'm just, I love conversation.
You're a great conversation with.
You have so much insights.
I told Mark, I'm like, I want.
(38:59):
We've been talking about goingto London Book Fair together for,
for years now.
And I said, okay, I wrote himthis year.
And I'm like, I apologize, Icouldn't make it this year.
Let's do it next year.
So you would love it.
You would love.
All that is to say, I wouldlove to spend some more time.
I do want to close with thisone question.
When I have authors on theshow, I say, what's your best writing
adv?
So I had to come up with onefor you that I use sporadically.
(39:22):
And if you could go back andgive your younger self that, you
know, that handsome,intelligent, debonair young man a
bit of self advice just as youwere getting started in the business
what would you say to him?
Well, I would say that havepatience, work hard and have patience,
work at your craft.
(39:43):
Now I'm talking about an agentversus the craft of an author.
But it is a craft.
Work at your craft, developyour craft, make it extraordinary.
Don't worry about, I'm doingthis for a year.
I've been doing this for three years.
I've been doing this for five years.
Because in success it will allhappen for you, but the success only
(40:05):
comes from the effort that youput into it.
You know, it's so funny, Ihear people talk about, well, I got
writer's block today.
I think I'm going to gofishing or something.
I'm like, you know, I thinkback to teachers when they were having
to go into work.
I never heard teacher's blockor if a policeman was being called
(40:26):
in to do the third shift, hedidn't have.
I have policeman's block.
So my point is you just keepworking because you work through
it, you push through it.
I'll tell you a quick anecdote.
Okay.
I was Owen Lasseter'sassistant for four years.
In today's world, assistantswant to be agents in six months.
(40:47):
I was his assistant for four years.
We used to have a listeningdevice on phones in the agent's offices
that we would put up to ourear when the agent was on the phone
with the client or a buyer sothat we could learn.
Right.
So It's Friday night, 8 o'clock at night, I'm on the listening
device and Owen Laster's hangsup the phone at 8 o' clock at night
(41:09):
on Friday night.
He turns to me and he said tome, why are you still here?
And the answer was, becauseyou're here.
Nice.
Yeah.
All right, well, first of all,we've run out of time.
Is there anything because youso wanted to be on the show and I'm
so grateful for your time, isthere anything I didn't cover that
(41:31):
you'd love my audience to knowthat is on the top of your head?
Well, as I said, I think thatthe most important thing.
I believe that a lot of youraudience are writers.
And I think the most importantthing is to work with people who
not only love literature andwriting, but also are committed to
(41:53):
authors careers.
Yeah, I like that.
And I'm going to sound real,maybe soft and old fashioned, but
I also, I don't know aboutyou, Robert, but I like to work with
people that I like.
Now.
Sure, we gotta find somecutthroat sharks out there every
once in a while to do some ofthe heavy lifting.
(42:14):
But all in all, having justcome through prostate cancer, I've
realized that life is shortand you got to move fast and grab
all you can.
So there's a part of me says,man, if I've only got this much time,
I want to do it with peoplethat I really like being around.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But the more successful yourAsian is for you, the more you're
(42:36):
gonna like them.
So well put.
So well put.
Always leave the room laughing.
Well, Robert Gottlieb, thankyou so much for the gift of your
time.
This has been a dandy.
My pleasure.
My pleasure.
And I wish you all the bestwith your recovery and I've heard
(42:56):
great things about your showand it's been a real pleasure talking
to you.
Thank you.
Thank you, man.
I don't know about you, but Ilearned a lot.
What a great guy.
Just like your son.
That Gottlieb family, good people.
Well, folks, that that wraps now.
The month of June, it went bylike that.
How crazy.
(43:17):
We're now in our fourth season.
Isn't that great?
Four years doing this, man,that is an accomplishment I am so
incredible, incredibly proud of.
And it's thanks to you that Igot there.
Thanks to you for being there,listening, for telling your friends
about us, for writing the emails.
Gotten some nice, nice emailslately subscribing to the channel,
(43:42):
supporting me financially orjust by great words of accolades
on social media, supportingthe substack page, so forth.
Thank you so much for that.
And by the way, just a quickreminder, if you'd like to reach
out to us, thethrillerzonemail.com if you'd like
to be on the show, go to thethrillerzone.com register sign up.
(44:02):
We'll see what we can make happen.
Well, that wraps June, what'scoming in July.
I guess you'll have to stay tuned.
I'm Dave Temple.
I'll see you next time foranother edition of of the Thriller
Zone.
Hello and welcome to the 234thepisode of the Thriller Zone.
I'm your host, David Temple,and I am glad you are here.
Folks, today is going to bequite a day for you.
It is on the shorter side, butboy, is it sweet.
My guest today is Robert Gottlieb.
You ever heard of TridentMedia Group?
(00:21):
Yeah.
He happens to be the chairmanand the father of Mark Gottlieb,
who's been on the show twice.
And if you don't know thatname, well, trust me, the publishing
world certainly does.
He's worked with some of thebiggest authors on the planet, helped
launch careers, and built oneof the most respected literary agencies
in the world.
(00:42):
Today, we are going to kind ofpull back the curtain on what it
really takes to run a top tiertalent agency.
How books become bestsellers,and what separates a good writer
from a great one.
What's it take to make it inthis business?
Whether you're an aspiringauthor or just curious how the book
world works, guess what?
You're in for a treat.
(01:03):
Without any further ado,please welcome Robert Gottlieb to
the Thriller Zone.
Before we start, do you prefer Robert.
Bob, Sally, I'd like yourhybrid, if you don't mind.
I love it.
I like formal names.
I mean, my name's David, butyou can say Dave, DT D in the house.
Okay, David.
I'll call you David.
(01:24):
Okay.
So nice to meet.
By the way, the reason I likeRobert is when I started as an assistant
in the William Morris Agency'sliterary department to Owen Laster,
then one of the great agentsof the 20th century, Bob Gottlieb
ran Knopf.
(01:44):
So Owen said to me, you reallyshould go by Robert so people don't
confuse you with Bob Gottliebat Knopf.
And I said, okay, I'll take Robert.
Yeah, Yeah.
I could see how that couldpresent a wee bit of a challenge.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, tell me if this is true, Robert.
Is it true that you went downthe hall and said to your son, can
(02:07):
I get on Dave Temple'sThriller Zone?
It's true.
That just blows my head right up.
Thank you very much.
Oh, it's my pleasure, my pleasure.
I've heard great things aboutyou and, you know, Mark has been
encouraging me to do more ofthis type of work.
(02:29):
Normally, I'm used to being inthe background and not talking about
myself or my client'sbusiness, but he encouraged me to
do it as well.
So I said, sure, let's do it.
Well, two things.
I'm very flattered I'm honored.
We're going to get to all youraccolades in a second and your son
(02:50):
is one of my favorite peoplewalking the planet.
He is just a gem.
He's a great guy.
He's a great guy.
And you know something?
Just a quick little anecdote.
Frederick Forsyth, a very goodwriter in London, a best selling
author.
When Mark was 11 years old or12 years old, I had to drop off a
(03:12):
contract for him in Londonwhile I was there working and Mark
came with me and Forsyth andMark spent two hours talking about
Forsyth's work.
And I was just sitting therein awe.
Mark had read it, Mark wasfamiliar with it, and Forsyth was
just amazed at theconversation between the two of them.
(03:34):
So Mark has always been a booklover all his life.
Well, it's so obvious.
We've had two conversations.
He's been on the show twiceand both times he's just, he's elegant,
he's insightful, he's really,really smart and, and he's so gracious.
So he's just that perfect combination.
I don't know what kind of anagent he is, but I'm hoping to one
(03:56):
day.
And.
Well, you know, on PublishersMarketplace under thriller, agents,
agents making deals for thrillers.
He's number one in the, in the world.
Wow.
I did not know that.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, he learned from his dad,of course.
Apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree, right?
(04:17):
Yep, yep.
Well, I would like to.
First of all, we're launching June.
By the time this show drops,it'll be a couple of weeks into the
month.
But I often, as you may or maynot know, I interview the best authors
in the world.
And I like to step outside thesandbox every once in a while and
pull in guys like yourself,gals in the business who really are
(04:41):
kind of sitting in the bigoffices, some of the ivory towers,
but some of the, you know,back offices, and just let us writers
know how the sausage is made.
So I would love to startbecause I'm just an inquisitive idiot.
I'd like to go inside yourworld for a minute and just kind
of, kind of get a feel for atypical day of someone running one
(05:03):
of the most successfulliterary agencies in the world.
Okay.
All right, so you want me to start?
Yeah, please do.
Yeah, we're rolling.
Good, good.
So, you know, you go into theoffice, you have your cup of coffee,
relax a little while.
Agents come in, you know,support staff come in, agents come
(05:23):
in in the morning.
And you know, we start off bycommunicating with each other, talking
to each other, what's going onin the industry?
Have you heard anything?
Are you trying, you know, areyou talking to authors that you need
help with?
Where I can get on the phonewith the agent and talk to a potential
(05:44):
client who's considering Trident?
Talk about what we do, how wedo it.
We sell direct in the foreign market.
We started that trend when I was.
When I started Triton, 99% ofagents sold through foreign agents,
and they didn't get reallygood service for it.
(06:07):
You know, boxes of books wouldbe sent to these agents from agencies
and publishers, and they wouldbe shipped over in boxes to buyers
and hope that one would get taken.
And I felt that that was notonly an inefficient way of doing
business, but not really asmart way of representing authors,
because every author isunique, even though they may be writing
(06:28):
in the same genre.
Each author's unique, eachvoice is unique.
You know, each history is special.
And so we decided to selldirect in major markets where we
were talking to editors andpublishers in the UK and throughout
Europe and other parts of theworld where we could pitch our clients.
(06:48):
And who better to do that thanpeople who work with them every day
and understand their work,appreciate their work.
And if you sit with apublisher like Alba Michel at the
Frankfurt Book Fair fromFrance, and the publisher says, we
need a thriller, we know whoexactly to submit because we know
her taste.
(07:09):
Whereas sub agents would just,you know, ship over a box of books
and hope that, you know, AlbaMichel would like one of them.
Oh, wow.
So when I get on, when I talkto my colleagues about how, you know,
I can help them sign clientsand speak to.
To what we focus on, which istheir careers, it's a different kind
(07:29):
of conversation than theywould often hear from other agencies.
Most agencies are very small, David.
They don't have the kind ofreach that we do.
Many of them don't go toFrankfurt or London Book Fair.
They depend solely on subagents to handle that for them.
So it's a, you know, we be,you know, so this is part of what
(07:52):
I do.
It's a different approach.
It's very career oriented.
The agency is focused on career.
It's not just an individualagent who does it, whether it has
to do with the work that we doin our contracts department.
You know, publishing hasbecome very, very hard on authors.
(08:13):
And, you know, when you havebig companies like Bertelsmann that
refuse to budge on ebookroyalties, not only in the United
States, but globally, it's achallenge to.
To Put together deals that aregoing to be very beneficial to authors.
Beyond the advance.
The advance is an important component.
(08:34):
But all the terms in thecontract are very important because
in the United States, thebuying term of copyright in Britain
too, then you have licensingagreements outside the United States.
And how all that isconstructed in contracts is very
important.
That's, you know, somethingthat we specialize in as well.
(08:56):
That's one reason, you know,the Frank that Brian Herbert or the
Frank Herbert estate and Ihave been working together for so
long because you know, we doincredible work for them abroad and
audio is another world.
That's that you have to have,you know, specialization and understand
because that's also alicensing business, although there
are some agents and to giveaway those rights, you know, for
(09:19):
term of copyright, which is aterrible mistake because you know,
the, the licensingarrangements that you make come up
every five or seven or eightyears and for renewal and that's
money in the pocket for the author.
That's how they pay their bills.
Well, there is so manyquestions I want to throw at you
and I know I've only got 30minutes, so I know that I'll, I'll
(09:43):
shoot to it.
You've, you've shaped thecareers are some of the biggest names
in the publishing world.
I mean, what is it that yousee in a writer that or a manuscript
that tells you now this one isworth fighting for?
You know, it's an interestingquestion because it's really a combination
of components.
(10:04):
It's the writing, of course,it's the storytelling capability.
Commercial fiction is verydifferent than literary fiction.
You know, one is, you know,literary fiction is like going to
a fine arts museum and lovingand being, you know, getting connected
with the work in, you know, ina certain high end style.
(10:27):
Commercial fiction is different.
You have to be a good writer,but you also have to be an incredible
storyteller and storytellingand commercial fiction is somewhat
different than what you see inliterary fiction or a lot different.
It can be a lot different.
And you know what?
On that point, let's, let'sdrill down one level for listeners
(10:47):
who may not, who may be new tothe business and don't know quite
that difference.
How would you differentiatebetween those two besides what you
just referenced with the experience?
Well, you know, I think thatwith literary fiction, and I'm just
speaking in very broad termshere because, you know, I don't want,
you know, it be interpreted asthe only, you know, only perspective.
(11:08):
But with literary fiction,it's an artistic, strictly an artistic
adventure.
It's Like a Broadway play.
You can build a Broadway playaround a group of people at a dinner
table and you're listening totheir discussion and their trials
and tribulations.
(11:29):
In commercial fiction, it'sreally about a engine, an engine
that drives the story from thevery first page, hooking, know the
book reader, the consumer,driving it through to the very end.
And that's one of thefundamental differences.
(11:49):
It's a one is more can be amore of a micro intellectual understanding
and interest in, you know,what literary fiction, some literary
fiction is versus a big, youknow, stage, big story.
You know, I often tellcommercial authors that if you write,
(12:10):
if your writing is great, butyour story doesn't work in terms
of big fiction, it's verytough if your writing is mediocre,
but the story you're tellingis out of this world as a thriller
writer, the likelihood is it'sgonna sell.
Yeah.
So these are some of thefundamental differences.
(12:31):
Now, this is a slightlydifferent tangent, but I was having
lunch with my old buddy JackStewart, who is a military thriller
wr just over the weekend, andwe were talking about.
We were just.
We like to talk shop and business.
We were talking about romance.
We just brought it up.
And we were talking about thedifference between the, like, different
genres within that and how themarket sells.
(12:52):
And it's so funny because itcomes down to you might be telling
the same story.
There's two points I want to make.
You might be telling the samestory, but in one genre of romance,
like say, for instance, darkromance, that impact will be different
than just contemporary.
And then we were talkingabout, you know, what, what makes
that so successful.
(13:12):
And, and it's.
It's kind of hard tounderstand fully, but.
And I don't know that you deala whole lot in that world, but I
actually do.
I have a lot of experiencewith that world.
You know, genre fiction isagain, different than literary fiction.
Literary fiction is you startwith a blank canvas and you paint,
you know, a, A, you know, abeautiful painting, that is considered
(13:37):
fine art.
But in the world of women'sfiction, and I'm giving you a broad
answer, David, if that's okay,is that there are rules of the genre.
Every genre has rules.
And so what's expected inhistorical romance fiction is different
than you're going to find incontemporary romance fiction in terms
(14:00):
of what, you know, the book,you know, how the book is constructed,
the storytelling, and from the setting.
For instance, if you're doinga contemporary women's fiction novel,
you're not going to doflashbacks, generally to, you know,
to Victorian England, it'sbecause what you're doing is then
(14:20):
you're crossing over.
And a publisher is not goingto respond well to that because it
becomes a much more difficultsale in terms of what are they selling
to the, you know, to theretailers, what are they telling
them that the book is.
That makes so much sense.
Speaking of, I'm just going tostick with romance because I, I,
we were, we were amazed, I'mamazed at what book talk TikTok's
(14:43):
channel of books has done.
And I know that publishing'schanged a lot over the years, especially
in your business, and it'sreally changed.
It feels like more in the last10 or 15 years.
And so between ebooks andaudiobooks, as you mentioned and
TikTok and even AI, what doyou think has shifted the most for
you and what still holds trueno matter what the trends of the
(15:06):
market does?
Well, I think first, greatwriting is number one.
Number two is that theblending of different genres oftentimes
leads into a new part or newgenre of fiction.
For instance, let's takefantasy romance.
(15:29):
You know, five years ago, 10years ago, if you tried to sell a
fantasy romance, publisherswould say, well, what is it?
Is it fantasy or is it romance?
But that's also a generationaldifference because so many young
people are growing up withgaming and, you know, certain types
(15:50):
of, you know, movies and television.
And so they're used to anelement that before would not have
been considered, you know, asaleable work because of the crossover
aspect.
Now that crossover of romanceand fantasy is, you know, generating
a lot of book sales.
(16:11):
Yeah, well, it blows my mindbecause we were just taught again
to reference that conversation.
The volume of books sold backto your background and how you started
Trident and what a powerhousereputation it has, not in just books
but to selling in film and tv,which is one thing I'm particularly
(16:33):
interested having come from infront of the camera, being an actor
in television and film andthen behind the camera is both a
writer, producer, director ofa film.
I am fascinated by that.
And now as a writer wanting totake my stories to the screen.
I'm always trying to drilldown on that.
What do you feel?
Because I want, want Robert'sinside scoop.
(16:55):
What do you feel is, makes astory scream worthy in your eyes?
Well, you know, actually it'sa complicated landscape because what
works one day for Hollywooddoesn't work the next day.
If you go in and you say thisis very similar to, you know, this
(17:16):
kind of film or this kind ofStreaming television project.
They'll say, well, that's beendone, even though it may be terrific.
So it's an ever shiftinglandscape, ground under your feet.
It used to be, for instance,that you could only sell frontless
(17:36):
titles.
Hollywood did not want to hearabout what the author wrote before
or what was available beforebecause they viewed that as being
all passed on.
Dune is a good example.
We represent the Dune estate, right?
So the.
So Dune a decade ago wouldhave been passed on in Hollywood,
(17:58):
but today Hollywood lovesbacklist titles because they need
it for their engine andthey're buying properties like Dune,
which are outstanding,fantastic properties written in the
1960s.
I represented Leon Uris estate.
He was the author of Exodusthat starred Paul Newman.
(18:21):
We just sold Trinity.
A big story about the Irish inAmerica has historical background,
contemporary background.
That book was also written inthe 60s or early 70s.
So there's a ferociousappetite for material now.
And the old rules don't applyin terms of, you know, we don't want
(18:42):
to see something that is evensix months old because it's been
passed on by so many people.
The other thing, of course ishigh concept is very important now.
You know that because you'vebeen around Hollywood and yourself
and you know that, you know,that point of view, high concept
means what is the marketingangle, you know, that they see in
the story that drives theinterest in the film.
(19:05):
We represent a book called Wonderful.
That book was, you know,starred Julia Roberts.
It's been on the New YorkTimes best seller list in the top
five since 2012.
We just sold it for a Broadway musical.
That book was rejected allover New York by publishers.
It's a middle grade bookbecause it was outside the wheelhouse
(19:27):
of what publishers believedmiddle grade students would read.
Now this book changed thewhole business because once it became
a huge success, everypublisher was chasing that story.
So Hollywood is also a littlelike that too.
Whatever works that, you know,they're interested in, it gets their
attention.
(19:47):
And then of course, it's, youknow, it depends on the, you know,
the genre, the dynamics of the book.
If you're dealing with acompany like Lionsgate, there are
certain types of books theywant to buy that they're, you know,
that fit with their, you know,you know, business plans.
And, you know, they oftentimeslook for books that represent ideas
(20:08):
and concepts that have workedfor them in the past.
You hear this phrase a lot in Hollywood.
Give me this, give me this.
But different.
Give me the saying, but different.
And I'm.
It's all.
It always makes me Chuckle.
Because I'm like, well, do youwant that or do you want that?
With a twinge of this.
And then, you know, when theworld started becoming.
(20:30):
And it's not a log line, butit's X meets Y in a blank kind of
world, that became kind of the.
It feels like to me, youcorrect me if I'm wrong.
The go to way to pitch a story.
Because it.
What it does is it.
It expedites the process.
It gets the listener, reader,viewer right to the point right away.
Correct?
Correct.
But at the same time, David,Hollywood is made up.
(20:53):
95% of people can say no.
5% could say yes.
So when you're meeting withpeople at production houses and studios,
they want to cast a wide net,hoping that something in that net
(21:14):
connects.
I remember meeting with Sonyyears ago and discussing a wonderful
book called the Gray man byMark Greaney.
And, you know, their take onit was very different than the take
of the company that ultimatelybought it and made it into a Netflix
(21:36):
series.
So part of it also is theindividual that you're talking to
and whether or not thatindividual can really connect with
the story itself, because the.
There's such a prolific volumeof stuff coming at you any day, and
I can't even imagine.
I've talked to Mark aboutthis, and he talks about the TBR
list that's just stacked up inhis office, and he.
(21:59):
I know he works weekendsbecause we have chatted occasionally,
but I'm.
It always feels daunting forus writers, how to break into the
business.
And let's say someone's tryingto break in today.
What do you think?
And this is going to sound alittle simplistic, but I know I've
now already picked up on thefact that you really good at drilling
down what gives them the best shot.
(22:20):
Is it.
Is it an amazing story?
Is it the thing that we alwayshear about at writers conference,
that killer platform?
Is it a little bit of both?
Is it something extra I'm notthinking about?
Well, I think it's a littlebit of both.
I think it's also importantwhen a writer is seeking representation
that they do their researchand make sure the agent or agents
(22:40):
that they're submitting to arethe right agents for the kind of
book that they're writing.
What we look for, it's very instinctual.
When we look at something andit's very raw and we make a decision
to take it on, we do itbecause of our experience of what
(23:00):
we know, what works in themarketplace of the written word.
On the page, I use the wordpage, but of course, everything is
so much electronic.
But I really look at it fromthat standpoint because as you use
the word drill down, youreally have to do that to make a
determination if something is saleable.
And oftentimes agents have todo a lot of editorial work on books
(23:22):
before it becomes saleable.
You know, especially in theliterary field, you know, we have
agents like Alan Levine whorepresent Pulitzer Prize winning
authors like Marilyn Robinson,who wrote Gilead, you know, and you
know, she represented for manyyears, Russell Banks.
All these authors love thefact that their edit agents can edit
(23:49):
books for them, can help themstrengthen the book before it goes
out.
So a book is so, so rawoftentimes that if you don't do that
work on the manuscript, you'rejust not going to sell it.
Now oftentimes there'ssomething about the book that's magical.
When I took on Tom Clancy andrepresented the majority of his work,
(24:12):
I talked about Red Star,rather Hunt for October with publishers
in New York.
And they all told me it wastoo technical.
Too technical.
That was their answer.
And a paperback house underthe Putnam Group, a military imprint,
bought the book for $50,000and they ended up selling 6 million
(24:35):
copies.
So part of it is that yougotta know the buyers, you gotta
know who is going to takerisks, who is interested in what
you're representing.
So it's all these differentcomponents, David, that go into the
process.
You bring up an exceptional point.
I was recently talking toEmily Bessler about a similar thing
(24:57):
and she referenced.
We were talking about howimportant is getting an agent.
I mean, there's a lot ofsuccess, Robert, I don't need to
tell you, in self publishingfor the people who do it right, or
a particular genre.
And we're talking about how important.
And she goes, it is moreimportant than you can ever imagine.
It's not just a matter about,you know, being able to, you know,
(25:19):
do the deals and all that coolstuff and take their percentage and
so forth.
She goes, it is this magic.
The editor or the agent knowsthe editors, the publishers, and
all the little differentpieces of the machinery that make
that will bring your book tobest success.
And when I.
And she really drew down witha great anecdote about Vince Flynn
(25:39):
about how the way he started and.
And he was in the hands of thewrong person and he couldn't get
arrested, all of a sudden itgot somehow to her and the rest is
history.
So what you're saying ismirroring so many things that we
often hear Little bits andpieces about.
And.
And I'm.
A lot of work.
A lot of work goes into.
(26:00):
Oftentimes a manuscript beforeit even gets into the hands of an
editor for the editor to dotheir job, which.
Is an enormous part of the.
I think an editor, I'mspeaking as.
I'm a specialist and so don'ttake it that way.
But I think it's almost asimportant as the story itself because
they can handcraft and moveand finesse is the word, the meat
(26:26):
of the story to make it itsbest possible.
And also the characters theyknow, the consumer, the book reader,
and what people enjoy.
For instance, when my mentor'sfriend sold a book called the Godfather,
(26:47):
that book was rejected allover New York by publishers.
David.
Because publishers said atthat time, why would anyone buy a
book where the lead characteris a mafia guy and so unsympathetic
as a result?
So the agent called a friendof his after the book had been rejected
all over New York and said,look, do me a favor, please publish
(27:10):
this book.
The manuscript pages hadcoffee stains on them, had been through
so many hands, so many people,and the publisher, who was a great
friend of the agent, said,okay, I'll do that.
And the rest is history.
How many did it sell into?
Tens of millions.
Right?
Tens of millions.
Just.
And now there's aquintessential example not to take
(27:33):
too much time on it.
There's a great example ofsomeone who had the tenacity to stick
with it and the people aroundhim to have the vision to pursue
it.
But the magic of when you havea good story, well told.
Yeah.
And, you know, of course theother aspect of it is that, you know,
(27:53):
you have to find an agentwho's going to be dogged.
You know, it can take.
Sometimes it's a quick groupof publishers looking at it and someone
buying it.
Sometimes it takes six months,a year, two years.
But, you know, if you believein the author that you're representing
and you know what an agentoften can do is dig down deep into
(28:14):
the industry and find theright person ultimately to publish
the book.
There is a note I made tomyself as you were talking, because
it's something that pops up somany times in my world.
I am not the biggest fan of rules.
I mean, I understand there arerules when you're trying to craft
a story, but like rules in thebig picture.
(28:35):
Sometimes I think rules aremade by people who just want to have
control and they may not havethe smarts to back it up.
So I've always Part of it'sprobably because I'm a PK preacher's
kid and I'm always, you know.
Or they're working fororganizations that set the rules
that they have to live within.
Exactly.
So sometimes I listen to theformula and the rules and I go, yeah,
(28:57):
we'll figure it out along the way.
Because you've just told usnow about three solid stories where
somebody decided to play, notnecessarily with the rules, a little
more against the rules thanthey won.
So in interest of beingexpeditious, you started off the
conversation with somethingthat was really simmering on the
back of my noggin.
(29:17):
And that was we were talkingabout international sales and how
Triton has done so well overseas.
I want to know, and youtouched on it, what's happening in
international publishing thatmight actually surprise my listener?
And is there anythingunexpected, like unexpected markets
that are heating up?
(29:38):
Well, I think first of all,the culture in foreign markets is
different than the culture inAmerican markets.
American markets publishing isdominated by the business side.
And no matter how much aneditor loves a book, if the business
people behind the scenes, themarketing people, the salespeople,
(30:02):
the art people, all the peoplethat sit on the editorial board,
acquisition board, if they'renot on board, the editor's not going
to be able to buy the book.
Nine times out of 10 in Europeand in other countries around the
world, it's really more author centric.
And so those publishing housesrevolve around what the great editors
(30:24):
in these countries want to acquire.
They have to get behind it.
They can share their opinion,but they're not going to be the driving
force behind it.
So it's a different kind ofmindset about authors and publishing,
storytelling, the material.
(30:44):
And so again, when you go tothe fairs and you meet with all these
buyers and we go To Germanywith four agents, we have about 350
meetings set up over a fiveday period at the fair where we pitch
our author's books.
You have to understand as anAmerican agent how to talk to them,
(31:05):
how to get their interest.
For instance, I say to myagents, if you're going to talk about
a book, and an editor from aGerman publisher indicates that they're
kind of lukewarm to it, don'tkeep pitching it, stop, get off that
book and get on to the next book.
They're very polite.
That's their way of showingthat they're not interested.
(31:26):
But sometimes American agentswho are very enthusiastic and they
want to continue pushing andcontinue on with that editor, and
that editor has more meetingsyou have more meetings.
So there are techniques andunderstandings that you have to develop
as an agent dealing ininternational markets.
But most importantly is theylook at books differently than we
(31:48):
do.
They have a much moreliterary, artistic outlook, even
in commercial fiction, thanthe way that we do.
We have, you know, I'm notsaying we don't have that, but they
approach it on a differentbasis, you know, in countries like
Eastern Europe and Russia, youknow, when we think of, you know,
(32:10):
entertaining the kids, we takethem to the park, we take them to
the movies, they take them to museums.
That's their idea of a day outwith the family.
So, again, it's just adifferent mindset that you have to
understand in order to work,you know, with them in their markets.
Such good insights.
Now, I know, you know,Trident, you've built one of the
(32:33):
biggest agencies in the world.
What's your secret to buildingthe team that you have, keeping them
sharp in an industry thatseems to always be shifting?
I know you.
You've been at it a while, soI want to know that secret sauce.
ROBERT Well, I think it's,again, a number of things, David.
One is, is that pickthoroughbreds when you're promoting
(32:56):
people or bringing people in,like Don Fair is a thoroughbred in
nonfiction.
There probably isn't anyone asgood as Don Fehr in nonfiction in
the industry.
He used to be the publisher,you know, of Smithsonian.
He was a senior editor atViking and the other.
So when I pick a thoroughbred,I don't like to, you know, ride them,
(33:18):
put my foot on their neck.
I I want them to run the raceand win the race.
That's.
Those are the kinds of peopleI like to work with.
Secondly, of course, is tolead by example.
So I'm out in front with the troops.
I'm not, you know, sitting inthe background, you know.
You know, just watchingcommissions come into the company.
(33:40):
I like to lead from the front.
I like to, you know, help themin that leadership and also guide
them and give them support inwhat they're doing and be, you know,
very active in their business lives.
You just said something.
My first career, Robert, wasin Radio.
I did 25 years on major marketmorning shows, New York, LA, Chicago,
(34:02):
so forth.
And I learned that the bossesthat I were the best, the ones that
I really admired, were the ones.
And you use the exact phrase Isaid you.
I would say to my boss, you'vehired a thoroughbred.
This sounds egotistical.
I don't mean it that way.
You've hired a thoroughbredwho has spent his entire young years
(34:23):
trying to get to this point.
So let me run, because ifyou're just going to hold that rein,
I'm not going to get anywhere.
So I've always found that theleaders that are really.
That really make a differenceare the ones that find the thoroughbreds.
Let them run.
And number two is, are willingto get in that race in the dirt,
roll up their sleeves withthem, because the guys who sit in
(34:44):
the big ivory towers, it justdoesn't work.
So.
And as you point out, it'salso creating opportunity for people
as a leader of a company sothat they can sign more clients.
They have resources that otheragencies don't have.
(35:05):
You know, a lot of agencies,and I'm, you know, speaking in general,
have, you know, everyone'svery competitive.
Oftentimes they don't likeeach other.
There was one major agencywhere the two heads of the literary
department didn't speak for 20years to each other.
So I'm just the reverse of that.
(35:26):
I believe in communication.
I also have a very strongethic and ethos about treating people
with respect and kindness.
And a lot of the people thatwe have at Trident came up through
the ranks.
We didn't go out and have tohire them.
We developed them ourselves.
Now, the downside of that is,of course, is that then other agencies
(35:48):
come and try to pick them off.
You put a big investment inthem, you put a lot of time and energy
into them, but nonetheless,you want to have an environment that
encourages people to make thekind of commitment in life that you
need to do to become aliterary agent.
I'm not going to take the timeto go find it because I have run
(36:09):
out of time.
But there is a listener whowrote in and mentioned you specifically
when your son was on the show.
And they said something to theeffect of they had heard enough about
your reputation and followedyour career enough and talked to
people around you that theysaid the reason they like, liked
(36:31):
the show at the time, that hadMark Gottlieb, that also was led
by his father, that they sorespected the whole Trident mission,
that that's what gave themsuch great respect.
And I thought, now that'sreally interesting.
And this.
This guy went on for quitesome bit, and he's just an average
listener because I followed upwith him.
(36:52):
But that has got to make youfeel good and is a great reflection
of the way you lead your team.
And it's also, if I may sayso, David, it is, you know, a.
Throughout the entire agency,it's the kind of feeling that I Like
to create with people and forpeople to feel secure, people to
(37:13):
feel that they have, that I'mon their side, my door is always
open.
I love having conversationswith them about, you know, anything
they want to talk about.
But at the end of the day,it's also all about the author.
If you're not really an authorcentric company, you know, either
you're chasing commissions oryou're, you know, trying to, you
(37:35):
know, just be a deal maker,you know, I mean, there are companies
that do that.
But, you know, our mission,our focus has always been.
My focus has always been as an advocate.
Not just as an agent and acareer manager, but an advocate for
authors.
The reason I take credit forthis, the reason is a 25% royalty
(37:56):
in ebooks today is because of me.
I went to war.
I went to war with randomhouse over 30 years ago.
They wanted to do an entirelydifferent kind of construct for ebook
royalties.
And with the, you know, weightof Trident behind me, not Trident,
sorry, with William MorrisAgency behind me, with my mentor
(38:17):
Owen Laster, we fought off anattempt to really rip off authors
on ebooks.
And we didn't have to do that.
That way we could have justthought about it for ourselves.
But I treated it as anindustry wide discussion that had
to take place for the sake ofauthors and their income.
Man, I could sit here and talkto you forever.
(38:38):
And I told Mark this one day,I'm like, what I want to do is I
want to get up to New York andsit down in Robert's big office in
the corner there with a view,I'm assuming, and have the three
of us just crack open themicrophones and chat away.
Because I'm just, I love conversation.
You're a great conversation with.
You have so much insights.
I told Mark, I'm like, I want.
(38:59):
We've been talking about goingto London Book Fair together for,
for years now.
And I said, okay, I wrote himthis year.
And I'm like, I apologize, Icouldn't make it this year.
Let's do it next year.
So you would love it.
You would love.
All that is to say, I wouldlove to spend some more time.
I do want to close with thisone question.
When I have authors on theshow, I say, what's your best writing
adv?
So I had to come up with onefor you that I use sporadically.
(39:22):
And if you could go back andgive your younger self that, you
know, that handsome,intelligent, debonair young man a
bit of self advice just as youwere getting started in the business
what would you say to him?
Well, I would say that havepatience, work hard and have patience,
work at your craft.
(39:43):
Now I'm talking about an agentversus the craft of an author.
But it is a craft.
Work at your craft, developyour craft, make it extraordinary.
Don't worry about, I'm doingthis for a year.
I've been doing this for three years.
I've been doing this for five years.
Because in success it will allhappen for you, but the success only
(40:05):
comes from the effort that youput into it.
You know, it's so funny, Ihear people talk about, well, I got
writer's block today.
I think I'm going to gofishing or something.
I'm like, you know, I thinkback to teachers when they were having
to go into work.
I never heard teacher's blockor if a policeman was being called
(40:26):
in to do the third shift, hedidn't have.
I have policeman's block.
So my point is you just keepworking because you work through
it, you push through it.
I'll tell you a quick anecdote.
Okay.
I was Owen Lasseter'sassistant for four years.
In today's world, assistantswant to be agents in six months.
(40:47):
I was his assistant for four years.
We used to have a listeningdevice on phones in the agent's offices
that we would put up to ourear when the agent was on the phone
with the client or a buyer sothat we could learn.
Right.
So It's Friday night, 8 o'clock at night, I'm on the listening
device and Owen Laster's hangsup the phone at 8 o' clock at night
(41:09):
on Friday night.
He turns to me and he said tome, why are you still here?
And the answer was, becauseyou're here.
Nice.
Yeah.
All right, well, first of all,we've run out of time.
Is there anything because youso wanted to be on the show and I'm
so grateful for your time, isthere anything I didn't cover that
(41:31):
you'd love my audience to knowthat is on the top of your head?
Well, as I said, I think thatthe most important thing.
I believe that a lot of youraudience are writers.
And I think the most importantthing is to work with people who
not only love literature andwriting, but also are committed to
(41:53):
authors careers.
Yeah, I like that.
And I'm going to sound real,maybe soft and old fashioned, but
I also, I don't know aboutyou, Robert, but I like to work with
people that I like.
Now.
Sure, we gotta find somecutthroat sharks out there every
once in a while to do some ofthe heavy lifting.
(42:14):
But all in all, having justcome through prostate cancer, I've
realized that life is shortand you got to move fast and grab
all you can.
So there's a part of me says,man, if I've only got this much time,
I want to do it with peoplethat I really like being around.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
But the more successful yourAsian is for you, the more you're
(42:36):
gonna like them.
So well put.
So well put.
Always leave the room laughing.
Well, Robert Gottlieb, thankyou so much for the gift of your
time.
This has been a dandy.
My pleasure.
My pleasure.
And I wish you all the bestwith your recovery and I've heard
(42:56):
great things about your showand it's been a real pleasure talking
to you.
Thank you.
Thank you, man.
I don't know about you, but Ilearned a lot.
What a great guy.
Just like your son.
That Gottlieb family, good people.
Well, folks, that that wraps now.
The month of June, it went bylike that.
How crazy.
(43:17):
We're now in our fourth season.
Isn't that great?
Four years doing this, man,that is an accomplishment I am so
incredible, incredibly proud of.
And it's thanks to you that Igot there.
Thanks to you for being there,listening, for telling your friends
about us, for writing the emails.
Gotten some nice, nice emailslately subscribing to the channel,
(43:42):
supporting me financially orjust by great words of accolades
on social media, supportingthe substack page, so forth.
Thank you so much for that.
And by the way, just a quickreminder, if you'd like to reach
out to us, thethrillerzonemail.com if you'd like
to be on the show, go to thethrillerzone.com register sign up.
(44:02):
We'll see what we can make happen.
Well, that wraps June, what'scoming in July.
I guess you'll have to stay tuned.
I'm Dave Temple.
I'll see you next time foranother edition of of the Thriller
Zone.
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