June 12, 2025 • 55 mins
Get ready to dive into the wild world of “Dark Neon Dirt,” because today's 231st episode with Dave Temple, the host of The Thriller Zone, we’re hanging out with debut author Thomas Trang.
Let me tell you, this cat knows how to spin a tale, and we kick things off by gushing over his book that’s got all the thrilling vibes you’d expect—think crime, grit, and a dash of clever banter.
Thomas shares his journey from the shipping industry to the literary scene, proving that you can go from navigating the high seas to navigating the depths of character development without missing a beat. Plus, we’ll chat about how the magic of storytelling intertwines with real-life experiences, and why engaging characters are the secret sauce to any gripping narrative.
If you’re into sharp dialogue and stories that hit home, you’re in for a treat—this episode is a must-listen!
Takeaways:
- In today's episode of the Thriller Zone, we had the pleasure of welcoming debut author Thomas Trang, whose book 'Dark Neon Dirt' is creating quite the buzz in the literary world.
- We dove deep into the intricacies of character development, emphasizing that it's not just about the plot but how well we connect with the characters that truly draws readers in.
- Thomas shared his journey from working in shipping to writing thrillers, revealing how his diverse experiences enrich his storytelling and character creation.
- The conversation highlighted the importance of dialogue in fiction, with both hosts agreeing that strong dialogue can elevate a story and bring characters to life.
- We also discussed the fascinating blend of personal experiences and cultural references that shape Thomas's writing style, making 'Dark Neon Dirt' a rich tapestry of influences.
- Lastly, we touched on the future of storytelling, as Thomas hinted at an upcoming sci-fi project that will maintain the gripping essence of his debut while exploring new themes.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Shotgun Honey
- Bad Fido
Keywords: debut author podcast, thriller zone podcast, Thomas Trang interview, Dark Neon Dirt, writing advice for authors, crime fiction writing, character development in thrillers, Elmore Leonard influence, dialogue in writing, audiobook recommendations, publishing debut novels, writing process tips, storytelling techniques, crafting engaging narratives, essential writing skills, podcasting for authors, literary podcast, suspenseful storytelling, author interviews, book recommendations
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Hello, my friend.
I'm glad you're here.
Dave Temple, your host of theThriller Zone.
And on today's 231st episode,I have a debut author that has blown
me away.
You know, you're going to hearme geek out on this show, and it's
(00:22):
something I do from time to time.
And for those of you who havebeen writing in going, can I please
get on the show?
I have been.
We have been turning away somedebut authors because of a number
of different reasons, but Ihand pick every one every once in
a while, and I welcome on the show.
And there's a myriad ofreasons why I can't do tons of debuts,
(00:43):
but this guy, Thomas Trang,has written a book called Dark Neon
Dirt.
Holy bananas, this thing is smoking.
It's so good, man.
When you run across a debut author.
Now, he's written some shortstories, but a debut author like
this, you know that he isprimed for huge success.
(01:06):
Shotgun, honey, got a shoutout to you coming in the show.
So, Ron Phillips, we need to talk.
Let's get on into it withThomas Trang right here on the Thriller
Zone.
My man cave, my literary mancave is in the process of getting
put together.
So it's a bit like, you know,when you have those newscasters and,
(01:26):
you know, they're sitting at adesk and sort of waist up there in
a suit and tie, and they lookvery professional, but they're.
Underneath, it's board shorts and.
And.
And so, yeah, just.
Just out of here.
It's absolute chaos.
Thomas, I know exactly whatyou're talking about because I'm
wearing a dress shirt, but I'mwearing a thong below, so.
I wouldn't have expectedanything less.
(01:50):
Oh, God, we're gonna have somuch fun.
This is gonna be good.
I can tell already.
I have been looking forward to it.
And if you're ready, no pressure.
This is all about, you know,my show.
It's all fun.
Yeah, yeah, I'm.
I'm.
I'm a regular listener, so,yeah, I know what to expect.
More or less.
More or less.
It's easy.
As long.
As long.
As long as I'm coming throughloud and clear.
Because there's nothing worsewhen I'm listening to a podcast,
(02:13):
and it's usually the guest isa bit crackly.
Sounds like they're down theend of a.
Well, all that sort of thing.
I'm telling you something.
I had a conversation with Josh Mendoza.
Yes.
And you saw his video, whichwas pure shite.
Shite.
I like that.
Very good.
You're making me feel at home.
(02:33):
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna do everything I can,but I will not try the accent.
It's not very good.
He.
He and I were talking.
He.
He and I are both filmmakers.
He's more of a filmmaker thanme, I suppose, because he's more
recent.
But, um, folks, I'm.
I'm just rolling, by the way.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna save some of this.
We have come to the conclusionaudiences will put up with shitty
(02:58):
visuals, that they get stellaraudio, but they will not do the converse,
which is what you just said.
I mean, you gotta have goodaudio, or people just won't listen.
Especially in a world of podcasts.
I mean.
Hi.
Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, I'll be honest.
Most of the podcasts I listento, I don't do visual.
I just put the earbuds in.
If I'm on the train, you know,I just stare out the window blankly
(03:22):
and listen.
Speaking of that very phrase,I'm going to come to a point in the
show that is one of myfavorites in your book, so don't
let me forget that.
Ladies and gentlemen on theshow, Thomas Trang, author of Check
this out.
Dark Neon Dirt.
Bam.
My brother.
(03:42):
Thank you, David.
It's good to be here.
Dialing in from or calling infrom not so sunny London today.
Isn't it funny that San Diegoexperiencing their first real rain
wave of the season.
Here it is June 3rd, when this airs.
It'll be a few days later, andit's been raining since midnight,
(04:06):
so crazy.
Well, they must have known Iwas coming on your show, so they
wanted me to feel at home.
My apologies.
No worries.
I'm going to start out of thegate with something that, you know,
I'm.
You told me earlier in thegreen room that you were a fan.
Avid fan.
You were listening a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you know what a fanatic Iam for book covers.
(04:29):
One of my favorite bookcovers, probably in the last six
months, easily.
It just smokes.
I'm gonna have.
I mean, I'm gonna share it here.
I'm gonna get it in moredetail, but it just.
It just rocks.
I don't know who the cats atShotgun Honey did this, but I want
to applaud them.
Who.
Who did this?
Bad Fido.
Yeah, that is the.
(04:49):
I guess it's the graphicdesign pseudonym of Ron Phillips,
who is the head honcho atShotgun Honey.
You know, I would have said.
I mean, if you look at.
You go to shotgunhoney.com.
you look at the back catalog.
All the covers are great andobviously mine's no exception.
I used to say, I think he's.
He's a graphic designer thatjust started a publishing house just
(05:11):
to make covers.
But actually it's not truebecause if you read the books, they're
all great too.
But he's really good becausehe doesn't seem to have a definable
style.
Like you couldn't necessarilylook at something and say, oh, that's
Ron's, because he reallytailors the covers to the vibe and,
(05:33):
and what's going on in the book.
And he's very good aboutgetting feedback from the authors
as well.
We went back and forth and Ihad some different ideas.
Thankfully, he ignored most ofthem because I have to admit, you
know, I leave it to the experts.
My.
My suggestions were a littlebit more.
Well, it's called dark neonand dirt.
(05:53):
It's got to have neon and it'sgot that very well worn la neon at
night kind of image in my head.
And he said, oh, that's good,that's great.
And then he came back withthat and I said, you know what?
That's even better.
It's absolutely perfectbecause it looks like a.
Well, not regular, but youlook at it and you say it's a crime
(06:16):
novel.
It's dark, it's.
But there's something to itthat just gives it a little bit of
an edge.
I don't know.
I don't know what it is.
I think book covers are alittle bit like that definition of
pornography.
I can't really tell you whatit is, but I know it when I see it.
And yeah, that's how that came out.
It was really good.
(06:37):
It just flat out does not miss.
And I want you to introduce me.
I should have thought of this earlier.
I guess I've just been overwhelmed.
Please introduce me to RonPhillips because I want him on the
show.
I geek out about his work.
I've had how many authors fromShotgun Honey on the show?
Matter of fact, when I wasstarting the show, I think I had
(06:59):
more Shotgun Honey people thananything else.
So please introduce us.
Tell them I want them on theshow there.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I'm sure he'd be thrilled todo it.
Now I'm going to massacre thisand I'm going to be all over the
place because I have so muchto say to you, but.
Fong Tavan.
Oh, Fifung Tavan.
Yes.
(07:20):
Okay.
I was kind of close.
You were pretty close, yeah.
Okay.
Who is that?
That is my uncle who passedaway about eight, nine years ago,
I want to say.
And so I dedicated the book to him.
That's.
Yeah, that's.
That's at the top of the.
That's at the top of the book.
I love that.
And it was just one of thosethings because I.
(07:41):
And maybe we'll get into thisin a bit more detail later.
I spent a lot of my teenageyears, childhood in Paris, living
with various aunts and unclesand so forth there.
And he is.
Yeah, he was, well, my aunt's husband.
And he was a big crime guy, asit turns out.
(08:03):
Like, he used to watch a lot of.
A lot of Miami Vice, a lot ofreruns and think NYPD Blue.
He was mad for NYPD Blue whenthat was on.
So I'm maybe aging myself here.
Great show.
Great show.
Yeah, he was a big DavidCaruso guy.
More than David Caruso is aDavid Caruso guy, I think.
(08:24):
Is that possible?
Well, I don't know how he waswith CSI Miami.
We never got.
We never had that discussion.
But, yeah, when it came timeto dedicate the book to someone,
it just made.
It just made perfect sense.
And actually, I've had a lotof family members that have picked
(08:45):
up the book out of curiosityor to see whether they're mentioned
in passing.
And when they see that, they're.
They're blown away.
So, yeah, it's a nice thing.
Good.
I'm glad I started therebecause I want.
Before I get into the book andwhat I think about the book, I wanted
to get to know you, becausequite frankly, folks, if you go search
(09:06):
Thomas Trang online, you'renot going to find a lot about him.
Here's what you get.
Thomas Trang is a Vietnameseauthor currently living in London
after stints in Paris, Sydney,New York and Singapore.
That's it.
No.
Thomas enjoys fine wine andquiet walks along the oceanside with
(09:26):
friends on sunny afternoons oranything like that.
I mean, there's.
There's no.
I do all that.
But, no, I kept it brief.
I don't know why.
I think you're either modest.
You're either modest orrunning from the law.
Yeah, it could be both.
(09:50):
I've got a couple of writerfriends who always joke that they
say, trang, he must be a spy,because when you talk to him.
I lived here, I lived there,and he seems to know a lot about
a lot, and you can't reallypin him down.
And they say, you know what?
You know, what do you do for aday job?
I work in shipping.
And they said that's just sovague that can't be real.
(10:14):
So.
Yeah, it is.
I think sometimes with thatsort of stuff, maybe less is more,
at least for me.
I think maybe if I keepputting out books and building up
a catalog, then maybe more ofmyself comes out that way.
Um, but I think it.
My personality, it's all inthe book.
(10:36):
Yeah.
Obviously the biographicaldetails are slightly different, but
I think as with most authors, the.
The characters are all somesort of part of their personality.
Write what you know.
Yeah, but he.
Wait a minute.
Are you literally in shipping?
Yeah, I work for a shipbroker, which is more or less like
(10:59):
a real estate agent for ships.
So anything from.
I want a ship to go from portA to port B, or I want to take a
ship for five years on contract.
I want to build a ship, I wantto actually scrap a ship and get
money for the steel and everything.
So where we've got our grubbyfingers in all parts of the.
(11:22):
The.
The chain there, and we get acommission, and that's the entire
business model.
So it begs the question, howdoes one go from being an employee
in the shipping business towriting thrillers?
Now, before you answer that, Idon't mean that like.
Well, Dave, do you thinkbecause you are a radio announcer,
(11:44):
you gotta write about radio?
I guess what I'm getting at isI don't think I've ever spoken to
a writer who is in theshipping business.
So there is that.
First thing.
Second of all, I think it'sinteresting that you would be in
a business that's so one sideof the brain.
And while you're creating yourworld is one other side of the brain,
(12:05):
which is maybe wherein liesthe magic.
I've always been writing.
I think it's probably theother way around.
I think the writing andreading has always been there.
The shipping is more recent thing.
Previous to that, I wasworking in oil refining and chemicals
(12:26):
and that sort of thing.
So that's what I do within theshipping side of things.
But yeah, I think you justcome out of college and you get a
job where you can.
And I could always write to acertain degree.
And so you end up injournalism, but you think, oh, there's
no money in journalism.
And they said, well, have youtried business journalism?
And so on and so forth.
(12:47):
And then you end up working atthe world's largest ship broker.
So that's.
And yeah, that's.
That's how that came about.
But I think it works in a waybecause my background, I've moved
around a lot.
I'VE lived in a lot ofdifferent places.
So perhaps the global aspectof shipping suits my background.
(13:09):
And you know, the way I think.
That'S perfect because you dohave a universal appeal and there
is a, there's a very largeworld inside.
Dark neon dirt.
So you said something thatagain was one of my questions.
So I'm going to give you a two parter.
How long have you been writingand who do you suppose has been your
(13:30):
biggest influence?
Well, I get, I mean, I guessI've been writing for a very long
time, since I was a kid or inhigh school.
But it was never somethingthat I took that seriously because
I think at that age you justwrite and it's fun.
And there's a big differencebetween writing a novel or writing
(13:54):
short stories as a 12, 13 yearold and writing a novel of 80,000
words, 100,000 words.
I didn't have the disciplinethat's required.
I mean, who does at 13?
Sure.
And then it was something thatgot parked.
I guess I was always a reader.
But then, I don't know, maybe10, 15 years ago, I thought, you
(14:17):
know what, let's give it areal go.
And I think the first coupleof short stories were terrible.
And then like anything, youjust keep working at it and you read
a lot and you learn fromreading and you learn what to do
and what not to do.
(14:38):
And then you slowly, youslowly figure out the stories that
you want to tell.
Because I think that's theother thing.
You can learn to write andwrite reasonably well, but the trick
is to write in your own voice.
And I think that took a longtime for me because I was so enamored
with other writers, I thought,well, I have to write like them.
(14:59):
I think probably the biggestone was Elmo Leonard.
When I was first starting out,a lot of people have said, oh, your
dialogue is, is, you know, isreally strong and sounds great and
it sings.
And I said, well, that's justElmo Leonard.
I learned from, I learned fromthe best.
And I think if, if people aregoing to accuse you of, oh, well,
(15:19):
you sound like Elmo Leonard.
It's like if you play thetrumpet and someone says, well, you
just sound like Miles Davis.
I said, stop, I'll take it.
That's fine.
Yeah, yeah.
I was going to say if I goteither one of those compliments,
I would be the happiest guy in town.
Now here's the interesting thing.
I often make my notes andthese are my notes on you.
(15:39):
I make, I make my note.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I And I, there's two things.
I, I make my notes and then Ihave to go back and type them because
I can't read my handwriting.
But right down here, and I'mgoing to give you a blurb.
I, I, I'm just started doingthis on books that I really like.
If Elmore Leonard and DonWinslow co wrote Heat meets Den of
(16:01):
Thieves, you would have darkneon dirt.
I'll take it.
Absolutely.
I mean, Don Winslow, I wasgoing to mention his name because
he's another one who, I thinkI discovered him around the time
of Savages, which is reallywhen he started to pop off.
But obviously he'd beenwriting, you know, like a lot of
(16:21):
overnight successes.
He'd been doing it for, formany years before then.
But yeah, there's somethingabout not necessarily his dialogue,
which is great.
But for me, what I took fromDon Winslow was just the brevity
of style and it's similar toElmore Leonard.
When I was reading them andthinking about how I wanted to write.
(16:46):
You read guys like that andyou realize like, wow, you can just
do certain things becausethey've done them and you don't.
And you don't have to dancearound with adjectives and adverbs
and all this sort of stuff.
You can just boom, boom, boom,just write in a really punchy way.
And I think that's probablystill come through because a lot
(17:07):
of people have said, mentionedDon Winslow as a comparison and again,
I'll absolutely take that.
Well, dude, I don't think Ihave compared any writers on this
show to Don Winslow.
Don Winslow, I'm very gratefulto say he's become a good friend.
He lives about an hour from here.
That's right.
He's in, yeah, he's in SanDiego, isn't he?
And Julian, we struck up aconversation and a friendship conversation
(17:30):
at a book signing years ago.
I went then I followed him toevery book signing and somehow we
just connected.
Went out to lunch and we'vebeen friends ever since.
And he is pro, in my, in myopinion, for what it's worth, one
of the best writers of the21st century.
And when I was reading yourwork and I'm an enormous Elmore Leonard
(17:53):
fan, back to 52 pickup or evenearlier than that.
And I thought this cat's gotthat kind of thoroughbred status
woven through him and that,that brevity and punchiness is what
makes this book sing like aopera Mama Jamaica mama jam.
I was thinking that verysimilarly, right now you're writing
(18:20):
the fact that you're A debut author.
Now, when I say debut, you'rea debut novelist.
Yes.
But your writing far exceedsyour time in this business because
I have read, as you haveknown, listening to the show where,
let's see.
Oh, as I say this, our showhits the fourth year next week, and
(18:44):
I have not read a debut booklike this in those four years.
Wow.
That's the most flatteringthing anyone's said about my book
so far.
I'm not sure, I'm quite surewhat to say.
I.
Thank you.
I think it was just one ofthose things where I worked at it.
(19:08):
I worked at it and certainlywhen I signed the contract with Shotgun
Honey, that was the end of 2023.
And because publishing movesat the speed that it does, it didn't
come out until earlier Marchthis year.
So I had a good year and a bit.
And even then I was stilltinkering with little words.
(19:30):
You know, I can sharpen this,I can do this, I can do that.
And Ron, bless him, at acertain point he just had to say,
look, stop, leave it.
It's got to go to print.
And he said, when we're done,you get one more look at it.
But just trust the process.
And I think, and I guess a lotof authors will tell you the same
(19:52):
thing, you can over cook something.
You can overdo it in terms ofthe edits, because at a certain point
I was saying, well, what if wetook the.
Out of this sentence or thingslike that?
But yeah, that was very muchby design.
So, yeah, when I.
(20:12):
When people like you tell methings like that and other reviews
and readers have come back tome and said, you know, they're really
blown away by it, obviously,that's, you know, that's very gratifying.
Well, I'm not done yet.
Keep going, keep going.
This is great.
This is what I.
These are.
Some of, these are some of my notes.
Your myriad of references is stunning.
(20:36):
I mean, you have clearly beenquite the student of American culture
and trends because it shows inevery single paragraph.
Your reference to iconicmovies, iconic songs, TV shows, colloquialisms
are spot on and deftlyinserted without distraction because
they feel more like habitswithout drawing attention.
(20:58):
And I think that may be yourbiggest gift.
The way that you can get inthere, you can tell that you've drafted
it and then cut out all thenonsense or the, the pieces that
don't matter because it is so.
It is so minimalistic.
It's still clocking at 300pages, which is, to me, the kind
(21:20):
of the perfect length.
But it is so sparse, butgritty and dark, but then light and
heart.
I mean, the way you are ableto do that juggling, whether you
want to say juggle or spinplates, either one works.
You do it with such recklessabandon and I'm just so stinking
impressed.
Well, thank you.
I think that's the.
(21:41):
That's the.
That's the magic trick.
As an author, you want to workreally hard at something and have
it seem natural or effortless.
I suppose so.
I know when people and myselfand other authors, when someone comes
to you and says, oh, this bookwas great, I read it overnight, I
(22:02):
just couldn't put it down.
Part of you just thinks, oh,that's wonderful.
And then another part of you,if you're honest, is, oh, I spent
sometimes up to years workingon that book.
And you just dash through itin one night.
So it's a bit of a catch 22, I suppose.
But I think if people areenjoying it, and I mean the thing
about the references, and alot of people have mentioned that,
(22:23):
because, as you can probablytell, I'm not American, but I grew
up very much absorbed anddrowning in US culture, I suppose,
films and TV authors.
We mentioned Elmore Leonard,obviously a lot of Stephen King before
that, because that's the rules.
(22:44):
If you're.
If you're a child of the 80sand the early 90s, you have to read
Stephen King.
That's just how it is.
And I think, yeah, I justabsorbed all of that and what you
mentioned about, it's allthere, but you try not to overdo
it.
I mean, this book, it'saround, like you said, 300 pages.
(23:04):
It's round about 75,000 words.
The first draft was closer to85, 86.
And then gradually I tookthings out because they didn't need
to be there.
Essentially didn't push itstory forward.
Exactly.
It's like that Hemingwayiceberg theory, I don't know if you've
heard of that, where he talksabout, well, you see the tip of the
(23:28):
iceberg, but 80, 90, 95% of itis below the surface and you can't
see it, but you know it'sthere and you just instinctively
know it's there.
And he applied that to his writing.
He said, if you know enoughwhat's going on with the characters
and the story, you don't haveto show everything because it's implicit
(23:48):
and the reader, if they'rereally following it, will.
Will pick up on all of that.
So I think that's a similarthing to what I've tried to do.
I think that you, you have togive your reader credit for knowing
what the heck they're doing now.
Yeah, I mean, I, I've always,I've always done that.
I mean, I, I, I try and writefor a smart reader, essentially.
(24:13):
Mission accomplished.
Thank you.
Here.
Here I am, page 9 by page 10.
I'm starting to highlight.
I keep highlighting.
Yeah, I highlight until Ifinally went, okay, the fluorescent
yellow is overtaking the white page.
But if you don't mind, I'mgonna just, you know, here's little
(24:37):
lines that don't meananything, but I'm saving it for a
big crescendo here.
So guy says, still waiting.
You want the preliminaries?
I'm Will Smith, baby.
All ears.
Clever, quiet, easy.
Everyone gets it.
Instantly, all they saw wasthe crew wearing hockey mask.
Zero points for originality.
(24:58):
Every bozo watches Heat, andthen they want to dress the part.
The one by the door, he waspopped with a guard service weapon.
The other two were taken outby a second shooter.
We figure has to be themissing guy.
You tell me so much and so little.
Anyway.
Okay, yeah, that Heatreference was different.
(25:20):
I remember definitely puttingthat in there and thinking, it's
almost like me as the authormaking a metafictional point that.
I mean, he said, every bozowatches Heat and they want to dress
the part because I think mybook is.
I mean, anyone who's read itwill think, oh, okay, this guy's
seen Heat and loves Heat.
(25:40):
Because that was definitelythe starting off point.
I thought, I want to write anLA crime saga type of novel.
And again, it's like MilesDavis with the trumpet.
You just cannot get aroundHeat when it comes to that sort of
story.
So rather than pretend thatthe film Heat does not exist in the
world of the book, I tackledit directly.
But again, I tried not tooverdo it, but it was there.
(26:04):
But see, you did it in justenough in one paragraph that we already
know.
Okay, we know Thomas is a fanof Heat.
He gave a little nod to thefolks, to Pacino and Dinero, and
then he moved on.
Much like.
There's another scene thatreminds me of Den of Thieves with
Gerard Butler.
One of my favorite movies ofall time, and much better than the
(26:27):
den of Thieves 2.
By the way, the soundtrack byCliff Martinez I listened to probably
20 to 30 times a week when I'm writing.
I.
I kid you not, because that'sthe perfect combination of rhythm
and crescendo.
Did he do you?
Talking about the SoundTrackto the first one or the second one?
The first one for sure.
I don't know about the second one.
(26:48):
And he's also the guy who did Drive.
Drive, yeah.
Right.
I mean, drive was another.
Definitely another influence on.
On this book.
I'm actually talking about mybook, but in terms of influences
and references, they.
They actually probably more on the.
On the film side of things, itsounds like.
So.
Dude, I gotta.
I gotta tell you something.
I.
There is.
I can sit here and.
(27:08):
We don't have enough time.
I could rattle off.
I mean, here's what came to mind.
Yeah.
Heat, den of Thieves.
One and two more.
One, then two.
Drive.
The other WinF movie about thepreacher, I.
I can't pull it up right now.
There's a couple of.
(27:28):
One.
One with Ryan Golin as themotorcycle rider in the circus beyond
the Pines.
Yeah, Love pines.
Love the show.
I mean, this just drips withthat noir ambiance.
There's a sound bite right there.
All right, I want to jump to something.
Yeah.
I had to catch myselfstopping, but when I got to a scene,
(27:52):
had had just enough, thensmattered it with a punch.
Dialogue.
In fact, I think dialogue isyour mastercraft.
I'm going to go to that page.
What is it?
163.
Folks, listen to this.
If you'll bear with me as Igeek out over my new friend.
I'm going to give you more ofthe paragraph, but there's a line
inside here and I want to seeif you catch it.
I read this thing three times.
(28:13):
I had to stop and I go, dang,I like that sentence.
That's how geeked out I get.
Just outside of SanBernardino, where the suburban sprawl
of Los Angeles finally yieldsto desert.
Wind pulls off the road at aDenny's for some coffee.
Inside is the usual mix ofpeople allured by the hot food and
bright lights, families withkids at the table, young couples
(28:33):
talking and looking at theirphones, truckers that have grown
roots at the counterbullshitting with a waitress, others
with disintegrating lives andsilent stares out the window at the
passing traffic, either lostin memory or trying to forget.
That sentence right there.
Disintegrating lives andsilent stares out the window at the
(28:55):
passing traffic, either lostin memory or trying to forget.
That sentence tells an entire novella.
And then it follows up with ahabit that I find myself doing constantly.
Let me continue.
He would always invent storiesfor the customers to pass the time
in a place like this, imagingtheir lives and situations, something
(29:16):
he's always done on planes,too fixating on lone cars moving
along the road below,wondering if there was someone inside
looking up and doing the same.
I can't tell you how manytimes I've been at a cafe, at an
airport, at a park, and I seepeople passing, and I create this
whole world of their own.
And that must be a writer thing.
(29:36):
But that was so, so tasty, Thomas.
Yeah, that.
That.
Thank you.
That.
I mean, that.
That part is absolutely pulledstraight from my head and experience.
Certainly when I used to do alot more traveling in my day job
in shipping or espionage.
You spend a lot of time atairports and on your own waiting
(29:59):
for planes.
And.
Yeah, absolutely.
I would look down at cars and that.
That.
That whole part of it.
I'm really glad you picked upon that.
Someone else, another writer Iknow, he pulled that same.
Almost identical paragraph andsaid, I love this.
This just.
You could just put, you know,put this out on its own and.
(30:21):
And it tells so much in so little.
But, yeah, that.
That.
Yeah.
The line about either lost inmemory or trying to forget.
Forget.
Tell you a little secret, David.
That was actually inspired bythe Eagles song Hotel California.
And I told my other friendthis, and only when I told him, I
(30:46):
realized, oh, it's Hotel California.
And my book.
Some try to forget.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Some dance to remember andsome dance to forget.
Forget.
Yeah.
So I think that is definitelywhere that part came from.
And, yeah, the rest of it is.
And you'll know.
All writers will know.
You sit there sometimes andyou just look at people watching
(31:07):
and you just invent storiesand, you know, what are they doing?
Are they.
Is that couple breaking up?
What's she saying to him?
What's going on there?
And it's kind of a nosy thingthat we do, isn't it?
I used to live in Manhattan twice.
The second time was in 95.
First time was in 95, 96.
(31:29):
And I used to.
This one, I really starteddabbling and writing.
I would go to coffee shops andI would be working along, but I would
purposely eavesdrop on thefolks next to me, and I would pick
up bits and pieces, becausethere's two reasons.
A, you can learn a lot aboutdialogue, by the way, if you listen
to the way people talk.
(31:50):
Because we speak more inbrevity and almost code simplicity.
We don't fill in all the blanks.
So I love that.
It's a great education.
Also feeds ideas that I canthen weave into my story.
I'm not.
I'm not.
I'm not stealing their ideas.
I'm not Eavesdropping to, youknow, retain information.
(32:13):
I'm just listening for patterns.
I'm a big pattern guy.
I don't know why my brain iswired that way to listen for patterns
and see it.
But don't you find yourselfdoing the same thing with homework
all the time?
All the time.
It's very much like you say,you don't necessarily lift these
conversations wholesale, butyou'll hear certain things and the
rhythms of speech and it'lljump start something of your own
(32:38):
imagination.
My wife is a big eavesdropperas well.
She absolutely loves it.
I don't think she'll mind mesaying this, but, um.
And I mean, I remember once wewere on the Eurostar, it's gotta
be 15 years ago, and we.
We listened to some lady whowas, I think, talk about disintegrating
lives and the way she wastalking to her husband about, you
(33:01):
know, I felt bad evenlistening to this.
But they weren't being quietabout it, shall we say.
And even to this day, youknow, it's one of those little in
jokes that couples have, youknow, we'll reference that one conversation
and about this woman who wasfrom Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I can't believe I stillremember this.
But yeah, there's alwayslittle things like that, the nuances,
(33:25):
I think with the dialogue,other than the cultural references
and all that stuff which youhighlighted before.
There's always.
Part of me always really workson the rhythm of the sentences, almost.
Almost as if they're music ina way.
So you can add words, removewords, and it will change the whole
(33:46):
flow.
And I think that also tiesinto character as well, because the
way someone will say somethingis not the way.
The way I would say a certainthing is not the way that you would
say a certain thing.
And that really helps to build.
Build the characters.
Because I think for me,especially with.
Well, with all fiction, ifwe're talking about crime and thrillers,
(34:07):
I'm a firm believer that it'scharacter, character, character,
because the plot is the plot.
And for me it's almost likejust a scaffolding to get from one
page to the next to the next.
And I mean, I worked verybriefly at a nonfiction publishing
house many years ago, and oneof their big titles was Seven Basic
Plots, I think it was called.
(34:28):
And the argument is, as youcan imagine, that there are only
seven stories, essentially,and all stories since the dawn of
time are some version of oneof those seven plots.
I can't remember.
I mean, it's the hero goes ona journey or A Stranger Comes to
Town and a couple of otherthings and everything from Star wars
to Citizen Kane, you know, itfits into.
(34:50):
Into one of those sevenarchetypes, I suppose.
So I think the trick is to.
To differentiate yourselfwithin that sandbox or within that
plot.
And I think you do that with character.
I wish I could impress you andpull up that reference.
And I know the minute we hangup, I'm going to recall it.
(35:12):
You know, it's like Aristotleor Joseph Campbell or something.
But we're both.
We're both tracking the samething, and I.
And I love that idea, and it'snot much different.
And I've only been studyingthis recently, and I had a conversation
with a friend recently.
We're talking about theprolific audience for romance.
And when you look at romance,you know, boy meets girl, or boy
(35:34):
meets boy, or girl meets girlor whatever that thing is, but there's
like, about what, nine, maybe10 tropes, and they all.
All stories are just basicallymoving in and around of those tropes.
And it's much like what you'resaying, But I'm telling you, Thomas,
you friggin.
Nailed it.
You nailed it.
This is my favorite debutbook, easily of this year.
(35:57):
It's gonna be in the topthree, at least since I've started
the show.
And we're about to hit fouryears in one week.
Wow.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And I know how many books you read.
That is very high praise.
Thank you very much.
I'm a bit speechless, actually.
Well.
And I mean it with all sincerity.
(36:18):
I don't.
I really try to keep my.
I don't try to be verbose or,you know, silly, because when I read
a book that I go.
I mean, I remember the.
Let me see, Let me do thisWednesday's Quiet.
He doesn't look like much.
And now the two guys sittingacross the table are wondering if
he's ready to take down anarmored truck.
(36:40):
You could stop right there andgo, okay, what is about to happen?
And then it just gets betterand better and better.
And I love the way that youhave this.
It's like I thought of tennis.
It's like you're volleyingback between Thomas and Wynn.
You're going back and forth,and it's two different POVs.
And I love.
(37:00):
I didn't even know I likedthat style so much until I.
I've read a couple of otherbooks, but this one really jumps
out at me, like, so you gethis viewpoint of his world.
And of course, this guy andthe world around him and balls that.
But then you get this voice ofthis guy in his world and it's so
deftly done.
(37:21):
Thank you.
Yeah, I think it's alwaystricky to pull those types of stories.
I've got a writer friend whocalls it an arrow book or an arrow
structure where you have thetwo plots running parallel but then
starting to converge.
Starting to converge.
And I mean without anyspoilers for my book.
(37:43):
Once they meet and I've had acouple of readers get in touch with
me and said oh, that onechapter where it becomes.
I'm trying very hard not tospoil it but once they essentially
converge, they said oh wow.
That was, you know, that wasthe bit that was the part of the
(38:03):
book where I just, you know,fist pumped and you know that was,
that was, that was it for them.
And that was definitely bydesign from me.
So it goes into boosterrockets at that point.
You know, it's you, you kindof know it's coming.
But that, that scene wherethey happen upon one another, we'll
leave it at that.
And I'm like oh shit, here we go.
(38:25):
And then it just.
And it's like off to thefriggin races.
And I cannot say enough as weget to wrap because we're going to
have to bounce here.
We're.
We're a little bit over timebut I want to know what's in the
works next.
Is there a sequel?
Is there different spin?
Is there a TV series?
Is there a film?
Talk to me, Thomas.
(38:46):
I mean next for me in terms ofthe novels.
I've got a science fictionproject that's coming up soon.
The publisher keeps pushing meto finish but I'm a bit slow and
steady and careful and as he'smentioned in terms of the detail
and having that writing stylewhich is rich and full of illusions
(39:08):
and references to things.
That becomes a lot harder whenyou're setting a book several hundred
years in the future in space.
But I like to think it'salmost like dark neon dirt but in
space.
It's very similar in terms ofthe style and the language and it
is science fiction, but I'dsay it's like a crime thriller, political
(39:31):
espionage type of thing.
But yeah, set, set, set in.
Set in.
In the far future, shall wesay, in terms of a sequel.
Again, without spoilinganything, I think this one has, has
an ending which I don't know,some people think that it's a little
bit more ambiguous or open tocontinue depending on.
(39:55):
I guess it also depends onwhat the reader brings to the Table.
You instill in me a desire.
I'm one of those guys that, incase nobody knows this about me,
I'm not a big fan of rules.
I'm not big on following rules.
Probably my upbringing.
I never would have guessed.
Yeah.
And I'm an entrepreneur by spirit.
(40:18):
But not by bank account.
Because if it was by bankaccount, there's about a half dozen
books I've read this year thatI would grab, snag the rights to,
and then do everything I couldto put it into development as either
a TV series or a film.
Because I am, as you know, afilmmaker, closet filmmaker.
I mean, I have done.
(40:38):
Have done a film in the past.
God, I'd love to grab my.
Get my hands on this.
And if I could afford it, Iwould buy their rights.
Thank you.
Yeah, a lot of people havesaid the same thing.
I think it's.
It's obviously the setting andthe story and the dialogue.
It's really all there, so.
From your lips to God's ears.
(40:59):
Yes.
May she listen closely.
I do want to say.
And I'm going to sound likeI'm patting myself on the back.
I don't mean that.
But I remember when I read DonWinslow's selection of short stories,
I believe it was called Broken.
There was one.
When I was reading it, therewere two of my favorites, but one,
(41:20):
it burned a hole through my brain.
And I said to him, I'm like,if I had the money, I would snatch
the rights to this because ithas to be a movie.
And wouldn't you know of.
Is it crime 101?
It's crime 101.
Yep.
Yeah, I knew.
I mean, that story.
I was talking about it withsomeone earlier because it was a
(41:44):
review of my book, and it wasvery kind and thoughtful.
And they mentioned, you know, all.
You know, the Elmo, Leonard,the Heat.
But they mentionedspecifically crime 101.
I said yes, because that.
That really was one of the.
It was definitely the bestthing in that collection.
And it was one of the bestthings that Don Winslow's ever written,
(42:07):
which is saying something.
So I could not agree more.
It was the best.
It is handcrafted for a film.
It was the perfect length.
You got everything you wantedin the story, of course, then you
walked away and go, oh, man.
It was like.
I want to say, like 180 pages maybe.
(42:27):
Maybe not even that.
And I was like, everything was short.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It just like, oh, God.
Anyway, and so it got pickedup, and I would impress you.
Okay.
Yes.
It got picked up.
Oh, it's in product.
Matter of fact, hold on asecond now.
I've got to do this.
Crime 101 in production.
I can do this because it's my show.
Hold on.
Ladies and gentlemen, crime101 is an upcoming crime fiction
(42:50):
directed by Bart Layton, whoco wrote the screenplay with Peter
Strawn.
Straw.
And it is an adaptation of DonWinslow Novella crime 101 stars.
Check this out, my friend.
Chris Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalo,Barry Kilgan, Halle Berry and Monica
Barbaro.
Jennifer Jason Lee.
(43:10):
Yeah, I like that.
Nick Nolte, Tate Donovan.
I mean, come on.
Did you say Barry Kogan was in there?
Yeah.
Amazing.
Yes.
Dude, I'm telling you, it'sgoing to make so much money.
And my good friend ShaneSalerno at the Story Factory put
that deal together.
Big surprise there.
Yeah.
Well, okay, listen, I got towrap it up.
(43:32):
I do have one last question.
You know what?
What do I always close theshow with?
Rising Advance.
That's three words.
Yes.
Best writing advice.
Do you have any for.
I mean, I know you're brand new.
Ish.
You have several short storieswhich we didn't even cover, but we
will another time.
This is your day.
What have you learned in youryears of fine writing, young man?
(43:53):
Well, one of the things that Ipicked up, and I think it.
I wish I could remember whosaid this.
And if they ever hear this,please let me know because I definitely
want.
This is not an original ideafrom my head and it is more to do
with screenplays.
But they were saying that, youknow, with any genre thing.
And it goes back to what I wassaying about characters.
(44:18):
You can't rely on the genre thing.
So the alien, the monster,whatever, to provide all the conflict
and the drama.
You need something there to.
So that the genre thing willjust, like you mentioned, would just
be like a turbo boost to anunfolding conflict already.
I think the example they usedwas Die Hard, which we think of as
(44:42):
one of the greatest actionfilms of all time.
But they said, actually if youlook at Die Hard, how does it open?
It's a story about a coupleand the woman's moved to Los Angeles.
And the Bruce Willischaracter, I mean, he's a New York
guy through and through.
And so it's actually a storyabout their disintegrating marriage.
(45:05):
There's like an inequalitybetween them in terms of their earning
power and so forth.
And she's relocating and he'sanxious about the whole thing.
And he's not reallycomfortable in Los angeles with these
1980s yuppies and so forth.
(45:26):
And so you think, right, justin that encapsulated bit, it's a
conflict about marital drama,but then Hans Gruber shows up and
boom, we're in Die Hard.
And I think you can apply thatto a lot of other action films if
(45:46):
they're successful.
There's always something elsethat is there before the.
The terrorist or the alien orwhatever shows up to kick the story
up a notch.
So I think that's always.
I mean, it's certainly advicethat I always tell myself.
I think with my book it'sslightly different because it opens
with a bang, but then you haveto gradually filter in the characters
(46:09):
and why we should care aboutthem and why we should feel invested
in them as the story goes along.
So I think that's probably theone thing, especially if you're writing
crime fiction or thrillers.
And again, it goes back tothat thing about, well, there's only
so many amount of plots, so,you know, you have to do something
to help your book stand out.
(46:30):
And I think that's probably.
That's probably it.
Well, you said a magic pieceright there.
It's all about the characters.
If I am involved and engaged,engaged, I can be for or against.
I can love or I can hate.
I can love and hate simultaneously.
I can be frustrated.
But if I am engaged with thecharacters first and foremost, regardless
(46:53):
of anything else, whether it'sstyle or length or cover or whatever
bullshit else is out there,I'm in.
And that's the way it should be.
Just to piggyback on it, Idon't believe in that thing where
the protagonists or yourcharacters have to be likable.
I don't find that's true at all.
I think, I mean, in my bookyou've got a bad guy who's kind of
(47:16):
likable, and you've got thegood guy who's actually more of a
bad guy.
And, you know, people havesaid, oh, I, you know, I read this
book and I wasn't sure how tofeel about this guy.
He was good, then he was bad.
And, you know.
But I think as long as you'reengaged, that's.
That's the key thing.
Well, folks, don't.
Don't forget the fact thatthere are people in power.
(47:39):
I'm just going to use that asa generic phrase.
You may like that particularperson in power or you may not.
You may agree with thatparticular person in power or you
may not.
I'm not going to get into politics.
I make it a rule not to do that.
You could think he's an a hole.
You could think he's thegreatest thing since sliced bread.
But it comes down to, are youengaged with the person?
(48:01):
Are you following the story?
Anyway, point made.
Hey, one quick thing, folks.
I got to tell you this storybecause it's one of the things that
really made a difference anddrew my attention to Mr.
Thomas trying here.
And I.
And again, I'm not tooting my horn.
It's just.
It's something that happened.
And I want to share this storywith you.
And I'm going to say it asthough Thomas isn't sitting there.
(48:24):
This is when, you knowsomebody is serious about their work.
So I was.
I got the book, I started reading.
I knew I was in.
I went to his website.
I found the website.
It was a piece of shite.
I mean, it was just crap.
Guilty as Chubbs.
Yeah.
And then I went to get hisemail address, and I'm like, oh,
(48:44):
Jesus, his email address isnot even his name.
And I'm like, okay, what the frick?
So unbeknownst to him, and Itook a chance on doing this, I mean.
Cause he could sit, look, andbe, you know, who do you think you
are, Temple?
But I wrote him an email.
I carved out a bit of time onmy weekend to do this.
And I'm like, hey, Thomas, Iknow we don't know each other.
(49:06):
You're going to be on the show.
Just a couple things.
Your website sucks.
And then I said, hey, here's awebsite company I just learned about.
It's not expensive.
It's.
You can build it in a flash, Literally.
And not flash code, but flash fast.
And ps, get rid of thatfrigging email they send you to your
(49:29):
publisher.
No, it's not shotgun, honey.
It's somebody else.
And here's a suggestion, folks.
Not only did he rebuild thewebsite, sign up an email account,
he did it in 24 hours.
The next day, he said, hey,check this out.
Boom, it was done.
I was so impressed with thatbecause a lot of times people ask
(49:52):
me advice, David, what kind ofmicrophone do I need?
What kind of light do I need?
You know, how do I do I get apiece of equipment to make myself
sound better or whatever, andI'll sit there, I'll spend notes
and an hour crafting stuff,and they'll never do anything.
But the fact that you tookthat advice did.
It just told me so much about you.
So all of that is to say kudosto you.
(50:12):
Not to me, but to you.
Thank you.
No, I mean, it's I'm alwayswilling to listen to advice.
It doesn't necessarily meanI'll follow it.
But when.
I mean, I knew the websitethat I had wasn't the greatest.
It's not my area of expertise.
Obviously, I'm a writer.
I'm not a web designer or amarketer or any of that stuff.
(50:35):
And I think until recently,certainly until I was a published
author, I just thought, oh,well, I'll worry about that.
You know, I'll cross thatbridge when I come to it.
And then wouldn't you know, Icame to the bridge and I was still.
Still on the same shitty website.
And you said, look, and you'revery polite, more than you needed
(50:56):
to be.
You said, like, tell me if I'mtalking out of turn.
And I said, look, David, Iknow the website's not the greatest,
and it was just the kick inthe pants that I needed.
And you're right, it wasactually a lot easier than I.
Than I thought it would be to.
To clean up and have itlooking very slick and professional.
Thomastrang.com so it's all.
(51:17):
It's all there.
You can sign up for, get intouch with me.
There's all my books,different stories, different interviews
and things of that nature thatI've done.
So it's all there in the oneslick, snazzy place.
And how about that email service?
(51:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's perfect.
So that goes.
Yeah, there's a contact pageon the website, and it goes straight
to the new address.
Yeah.
And it's highly secure.
They're based out of Switzerland.
Anyway, I was gonna say.
I'm not gonna rain onanybody's parade.
When I first came out as anauthor, I hired this particular company,
(52:00):
and they were a sponsor for ashort while.
It was very expensive.
They're nice people.
They really are.
You don't need to drop thatkind of cash for a website.
And honestly, if you ever wantto know, as a listener what to do,
contact me.
I'll help you out.
And I'm not getting anykickbacks from this anyway.
Thomas Trying.
I cannot say enough nice things.
(52:21):
Dark Neon Dirt is the book.
It is riveting.
This is a book, folks, youhave got to buy.
I know I'm late to the party.
I say that often.
I heard about this in March.
I just happened to be stacked.
I got a few things going on inmy life, and I'm sorry I'm late to
the game.
But, boy, am I glad I'm there.
Because as Nick Kolakowski,mutual friend here Says fast and
(52:43):
smooth and incredible heist novel.
You're going to want to pickthis up and read it.
And if you ever want to do aaudiobook, count me in, because I
would be honored to jump onthat board.
And I am thinking about an audiobook.
My wife has been on my caseabout it because she only read the
book probably about the sametime that you did, David.
(53:05):
She only read it when it wasavailable in paperback.
And a couple of other writersI know, I've mentioned that, and
they said, wait, your wifenever read it before it was published?
I said, no, it's crime fiction.
It's not really her thing.
They were shocked.
They said, my wife wouldn'teven let me leave the house without
a shopping list that wasapproved by her.
And it wasn't until shestarted reading it that I thought,
(53:28):
I'm actually quite anxiousthat she'll enjoy it.
And she did, thankfully.
And she's not one to.
If she didn't like it, shewouldn't mince words.
Again, it came down to thecharacters, I think, because she
thought, it's a crime thriller.
There'll be explosions andninjas jumping out of bushes and
all this sort of stuff.
And there.
There is an element of that,but it.
It comes down to thecharacters, and there's romance,
(53:50):
too.
So, yeah, yeah, you.
You get it all, folks.
In 300 pages, which is.
I'll tell you, Phillips is.
He's nailing it.
Get him on the show, forcrying out loud.
It's just.
It's.
It's a.
It's a perfect book.
There's not a wasted bit in there.
All right.
Want to learn more?
As you just heard from him,and he beat me, too.
@thomas trang.com.
(54:11):
thomas, please tell me you'llcome back on the show again.
Absolutely.
I had great fun.
Thank you.
Was that right?
Well, you haven't read thebook yet, but you will.
Dark neon dirt.
You're gonna read it.
Thanks, Thomas.
I think I got a new buddy.
Folks, welcome to June, andguess what?
We launch season nine, that'snext week, with one of my favorite
(54:35):
authors.
The beautiful, the talented,the lovely, the charming.
She is a master craftsperson.
Megan Abbott, El Dorado Drive.
Wow.
Wow.
Did you read the turnout?
Did you read any of her stuff?
(54:55):
People cannot say enough nice things.
Me either.
Megan Abbott is a hell of a writer.
There's some inside scoop onthis particular book that you're
going to want to hear about.
You may not have heard itanywhere else, but you're going to
hear it on the Thriller Zone,your number one podcast for thriller
fiction.
Oh, yeah.
(55:16):
Join us next week as we kickoff season nine of the Thriller Zone.
I'm gonna scoot out of here.
I'm talk to you next time foranother edition of the Thriller Zone.
Foreign.
Hello, my friend.
I'm glad you're here.
Dave Temple, your host of theThriller Zone.
And on today's 231st episode,I have a debut author that has blown
me away.
You know, you're going to hearme geek out on this show, and it's
(00:22):
something I do from time to time.
And for those of you who havebeen writing in going, can I please
get on the show?
I have been.
We have been turning away somedebut authors because of a number
of different reasons, but Ihand pick every one every once in
a while, and I welcome on the show.
And there's a myriad ofreasons why I can't do tons of debuts,
(00:43):
but this guy, Thomas Trang,has written a book called Dark Neon
Dirt.
Holy bananas, this thing is smoking.
It's so good, man.
When you run across a debut author.
Now, he's written some shortstories, but a debut author like
this, you know that he isprimed for huge success.
(01:06):
Shotgun, honey, got a shoutout to you coming in the show.
So, Ron Phillips, we need to talk.
Let's get on into it withThomas Trang right here on the Thriller
Zone.
My man cave, my literary mancave is in the process of getting
put together.
So it's a bit like, you know,when you have those newscasters and,
(01:26):
you know, they're sitting at adesk and sort of waist up there in
a suit and tie, and they lookvery professional, but they're.
Underneath, it's board shorts and.
And.
And so, yeah, just.
Just out of here.
It's absolute chaos.
Thomas, I know exactly whatyou're talking about because I'm
wearing a dress shirt, but I'mwearing a thong below, so.
I wouldn't have expectedanything less.
(01:50):
Oh, God, we're gonna have somuch fun.
This is gonna be good.
I can tell already.
I have been looking forward to it.
And if you're ready, no pressure.
This is all about, you know,my show.
It's all fun.
Yeah, yeah, I'm.
I'm.
I'm a regular listener, so,yeah, I know what to expect.
More or less.
More or less.
It's easy.
As long.
As long.
As long as I'm coming throughloud and clear.
Because there's nothing worsewhen I'm listening to a podcast,
(02:13):
and it's usually the guest isa bit crackly.
Sounds like they're down theend of a.
Well, all that sort of thing.
I'm telling you something.
I had a conversation with Josh Mendoza.
Yes.
And you saw his video, whichwas pure shite.
Shite.
I like that.
Very good.
You're making me feel at home.
(02:33):
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna do everything I can,but I will not try the accent.
It's not very good.
He.
He and I were talking.
He.
He and I are both filmmakers.
He's more of a filmmaker thanme, I suppose, because he's more
recent.
But, um, folks, I'm.
I'm just rolling, by the way.
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna save some of this.
We have come to the conclusionaudiences will put up with shitty
(02:58):
visuals, that they get stellaraudio, but they will not do the converse,
which is what you just said.
I mean, you gotta have goodaudio, or people just won't listen.
Especially in a world of podcasts.
I mean.
Hi.
Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, I'll be honest.
Most of the podcasts I listento, I don't do visual.
I just put the earbuds in.
If I'm on the train, you know,I just stare out the window blankly
(03:22):
and listen.
Speaking of that very phrase,I'm going to come to a point in the
show that is one of myfavorites in your book, so don't
let me forget that.
Ladies and gentlemen on theshow, Thomas Trang, author of Check
this out.
Dark Neon Dirt.
Bam.
My brother.
(03:42):
Thank you, David.
It's good to be here.
Dialing in from or calling infrom not so sunny London today.
Isn't it funny that San Diegoexperiencing their first real rain
wave of the season.
Here it is June 3rd, when this airs.
It'll be a few days later, andit's been raining since midnight,
(04:06):
so crazy.
Well, they must have known Iwas coming on your show, so they
wanted me to feel at home.
My apologies.
No worries.
I'm going to start out of thegate with something that, you know,
I'm.
You told me earlier in thegreen room that you were a fan.
Avid fan.
You were listening a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you know what a fanatic Iam for book covers.
(04:29):
One of my favorite bookcovers, probably in the last six
months, easily.
It just smokes.
I'm gonna have.
I mean, I'm gonna share it here.
I'm gonna get it in moredetail, but it just.
It just rocks.
I don't know who the cats atShotgun Honey did this, but I want
to applaud them.
Who.
Who did this?
Bad Fido.
Yeah, that is the.
(04:49):
I guess it's the graphicdesign pseudonym of Ron Phillips,
who is the head honcho atShotgun Honey.
You know, I would have said.
I mean, if you look at.
You go to shotgunhoney.com.
you look at the back catalog.
All the covers are great andobviously mine's no exception.
I used to say, I think he's.
He's a graphic designer thatjust started a publishing house just
(05:11):
to make covers.
But actually it's not truebecause if you read the books, they're
all great too.
But he's really good becausehe doesn't seem to have a definable
style.
Like you couldn't necessarilylook at something and say, oh, that's
Ron's, because he reallytailors the covers to the vibe and,
(05:33):
and what's going on in the book.
And he's very good aboutgetting feedback from the authors
as well.
We went back and forth and Ihad some different ideas.
Thankfully, he ignored most ofthem because I have to admit, you
know, I leave it to the experts.
My.
My suggestions were a littlebit more.
Well, it's called dark neonand dirt.
(05:53):
It's got to have neon and it'sgot that very well worn la neon at
night kind of image in my head.
And he said, oh, that's good,that's great.
And then he came back withthat and I said, you know what?
That's even better.
It's absolutely perfectbecause it looks like a.
Well, not regular, but youlook at it and you say it's a crime
(06:16):
novel.
It's dark, it's.
But there's something to itthat just gives it a little bit of
an edge.
I don't know.
I don't know what it is.
I think book covers are alittle bit like that definition of
pornography.
I can't really tell you whatit is, but I know it when I see it.
And yeah, that's how that came out.
It was really good.
(06:37):
It just flat out does not miss.
And I want you to introduce me.
I should have thought of this earlier.
I guess I've just been overwhelmed.
Please introduce me to RonPhillips because I want him on the
show.
I geek out about his work.
I've had how many authors fromShotgun Honey on the show?
Matter of fact, when I wasstarting the show, I think I had
(06:59):
more Shotgun Honey people thananything else.
So please introduce us.
Tell them I want them on theshow there.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I'm sure he'd be thrilled todo it.
Now I'm going to massacre thisand I'm going to be all over the
place because I have so muchto say to you, but.
Fong Tavan.
Oh, Fifung Tavan.
Yes.
(07:20):
Okay.
I was kind of close.
You were pretty close, yeah.
Okay.
Who is that?
That is my uncle who passedaway about eight, nine years ago,
I want to say.
And so I dedicated the book to him.
That's.
Yeah, that's.
That's at the top of the.
That's at the top of the book.
I love that.
And it was just one of thosethings because I.
(07:41):
And maybe we'll get into thisin a bit more detail later.
I spent a lot of my teenageyears, childhood in Paris, living
with various aunts and unclesand so forth there.
And he is.
Yeah, he was, well, my aunt's husband.
And he was a big crime guy, asit turns out.
(08:03):
Like, he used to watch a lot of.
A lot of Miami Vice, a lot ofreruns and think NYPD Blue.
He was mad for NYPD Blue whenthat was on.
So I'm maybe aging myself here.
Great show.
Great show.
Yeah, he was a big DavidCaruso guy.
More than David Caruso is aDavid Caruso guy, I think.
(08:24):
Is that possible?
Well, I don't know how he waswith CSI Miami.
We never got.
We never had that discussion.
But, yeah, when it came timeto dedicate the book to someone,
it just made.
It just made perfect sense.
And actually, I've had a lotof family members that have picked
(08:45):
up the book out of curiosityor to see whether they're mentioned
in passing.
And when they see that, they're.
They're blown away.
So, yeah, it's a nice thing.
Good.
I'm glad I started therebecause I want.
Before I get into the book andwhat I think about the book, I wanted
to get to know you, becausequite frankly, folks, if you go search
(09:06):
Thomas Trang online, you'renot going to find a lot about him.
Here's what you get.
Thomas Trang is a Vietnameseauthor currently living in London
after stints in Paris, Sydney,New York and Singapore.
That's it.
No.
Thomas enjoys fine wine andquiet walks along the oceanside with
(09:26):
friends on sunny afternoons oranything like that.
I mean, there's.
There's no.
I do all that.
But, no, I kept it brief.
I don't know why.
I think you're either modest.
You're either modest orrunning from the law.
Yeah, it could be both.
(09:50):
I've got a couple of writerfriends who always joke that they
say, trang, he must be a spy,because when you talk to him.
I lived here, I lived there,and he seems to know a lot about
a lot, and you can't reallypin him down.
And they say, you know what?
You know, what do you do for aday job?
I work in shipping.
And they said that's just sovague that can't be real.
(10:14):
So.
Yeah, it is.
I think sometimes with thatsort of stuff, maybe less is more,
at least for me.
I think maybe if I keepputting out books and building up
a catalog, then maybe more ofmyself comes out that way.
Um, but I think it.
My personality, it's all inthe book.
(10:36):
Yeah.
Obviously the biographicaldetails are slightly different, but
I think as with most authors, the.
The characters are all somesort of part of their personality.
Write what you know.
Yeah, but he.
Wait a minute.
Are you literally in shipping?
Yeah, I work for a shipbroker, which is more or less like
(10:59):
a real estate agent for ships.
So anything from.
I want a ship to go from portA to port B, or I want to take a
ship for five years on contract.
I want to build a ship, I wantto actually scrap a ship and get
money for the steel and everything.
So where we've got our grubbyfingers in all parts of the.
(11:22):
The.
The chain there, and we get acommission, and that's the entire
business model.
So it begs the question, howdoes one go from being an employee
in the shipping business towriting thrillers?
Now, before you answer that, Idon't mean that like.
Well, Dave, do you thinkbecause you are a radio announcer,
(11:44):
you gotta write about radio?
I guess what I'm getting at isI don't think I've ever spoken to
a writer who is in theshipping business.
So there is that.
First thing.
Second of all, I think it'sinteresting that you would be in
a business that's so one sideof the brain.
And while you're creating yourworld is one other side of the brain,
(12:05):
which is maybe wherein liesthe magic.
I've always been writing.
I think it's probably theother way around.
I think the writing andreading has always been there.
The shipping is more recent thing.
Previous to that, I wasworking in oil refining and chemicals
(12:26):
and that sort of thing.
So that's what I do within theshipping side of things.
But yeah, I think you justcome out of college and you get a
job where you can.
And I could always write to acertain degree.
And so you end up injournalism, but you think, oh, there's
no money in journalism.
And they said, well, have youtried business journalism?
And so on and so forth.
(12:47):
And then you end up working atthe world's largest ship broker.
So that's.
And yeah, that's.
That's how that came about.
But I think it works in a waybecause my background, I've moved
around a lot.
I'VE lived in a lot ofdifferent places.
So perhaps the global aspectof shipping suits my background.
(13:09):
And you know, the way I think.
That'S perfect because you dohave a universal appeal and there
is a, there's a very largeworld inside.
Dark neon dirt.
So you said something thatagain was one of my questions.
So I'm going to give you a two parter.
How long have you been writingand who do you suppose has been your
(13:30):
biggest influence?
Well, I get, I mean, I guessI've been writing for a very long
time, since I was a kid or inhigh school.
But it was never somethingthat I took that seriously because
I think at that age you justwrite and it's fun.
And there's a big differencebetween writing a novel or writing
(13:54):
short stories as a 12, 13 yearold and writing a novel of 80,000
words, 100,000 words.
I didn't have the disciplinethat's required.
I mean, who does at 13?
Sure.
And then it was something thatgot parked.
I guess I was always a reader.
But then, I don't know, maybe10, 15 years ago, I thought, you
(14:17):
know what, let's give it areal go.
And I think the first coupleof short stories were terrible.
And then like anything, youjust keep working at it and you read
a lot and you learn fromreading and you learn what to do
and what not to do.
(14:38):
And then you slowly, youslowly figure out the stories that
you want to tell.
Because I think that's theother thing.
You can learn to write andwrite reasonably well, but the trick
is to write in your own voice.
And I think that took a longtime for me because I was so enamored
with other writers, I thought,well, I have to write like them.
(14:59):
I think probably the biggestone was Elmo Leonard.
When I was first starting out,a lot of people have said, oh, your
dialogue is, is, you know, isreally strong and sounds great and
it sings.
And I said, well, that's justElmo Leonard.
I learned from, I learned fromthe best.
And I think if, if people aregoing to accuse you of, oh, well,
(15:19):
you sound like Elmo Leonard.
It's like if you play thetrumpet and someone says, well, you
just sound like Miles Davis.
I said, stop, I'll take it.
That's fine.
Yeah, yeah.
I was going to say if I goteither one of those compliments,
I would be the happiest guy in town.
Now here's the interesting thing.
I often make my notes andthese are my notes on you.
(15:39):
I make, I make my note.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I And I, there's two things.
I, I make my notes and then Ihave to go back and type them because
I can't read my handwriting.
But right down here, and I'mgoing to give you a blurb.
I, I, I'm just started doingthis on books that I really like.
If Elmore Leonard and DonWinslow co wrote Heat meets Den of
(16:01):
Thieves, you would have darkneon dirt.
I'll take it.
Absolutely.
I mean, Don Winslow, I wasgoing to mention his name because
he's another one who, I thinkI discovered him around the time
of Savages, which is reallywhen he started to pop off.
But obviously he'd beenwriting, you know, like a lot of
(16:21):
overnight successes.
He'd been doing it for, formany years before then.
But yeah, there's somethingabout not necessarily his dialogue,
which is great.
But for me, what I took fromDon Winslow was just the brevity
of style and it's similar toElmore Leonard.
When I was reading them andthinking about how I wanted to write.
(16:46):
You read guys like that andyou realize like, wow, you can just
do certain things becausethey've done them and you don't.
And you don't have to dancearound with adjectives and adverbs
and all this sort of stuff.
You can just boom, boom, boom,just write in a really punchy way.
And I think that's probablystill come through because a lot
(17:07):
of people have said, mentionedDon Winslow as a comparison and again,
I'll absolutely take that.
Well, dude, I don't think Ihave compared any writers on this
show to Don Winslow.
Don Winslow, I'm very gratefulto say he's become a good friend.
He lives about an hour from here.
That's right.
He's in, yeah, he's in SanDiego, isn't he?
And Julian, we struck up aconversation and a friendship conversation
(17:30):
at a book signing years ago.
I went then I followed him toevery book signing and somehow we
just connected.
Went out to lunch and we'vebeen friends ever since.
And he is pro, in my, in myopinion, for what it's worth, one
of the best writers of the21st century.
And when I was reading yourwork and I'm an enormous Elmore Leonard
(17:53):
fan, back to 52 pickup or evenearlier than that.
And I thought this cat's gotthat kind of thoroughbred status
woven through him and that,that brevity and punchiness is what
makes this book sing like aopera Mama Jamaica mama jam.
I was thinking that verysimilarly, right now you're writing
(18:20):
the fact that you're A debut author.
Now, when I say debut, you'rea debut novelist.
Yes.
But your writing far exceedsyour time in this business because
I have read, as you haveknown, listening to the show where,
let's see.
Oh, as I say this, our showhits the fourth year next week, and
(18:44):
I have not read a debut booklike this in those four years.
Wow.
That's the most flatteringthing anyone's said about my book
so far.
I'm not sure, I'm quite surewhat to say.
I.
Thank you.
I think it was just one ofthose things where I worked at it.
(19:08):
I worked at it and certainlywhen I signed the contract with Shotgun
Honey, that was the end of 2023.
And because publishing movesat the speed that it does, it didn't
come out until earlier Marchthis year.
So I had a good year and a bit.
And even then I was stilltinkering with little words.
(19:30):
You know, I can sharpen this,I can do this, I can do that.
And Ron, bless him, at acertain point he just had to say,
look, stop, leave it.
It's got to go to print.
And he said, when we're done,you get one more look at it.
But just trust the process.
And I think, and I guess a lotof authors will tell you the same
(19:52):
thing, you can over cook something.
You can overdo it in terms ofthe edits, because at a certain point
I was saying, well, what if wetook the.
Out of this sentence or thingslike that?
But yeah, that was very muchby design.
So, yeah, when I.
(20:12):
When people like you tell methings like that and other reviews
and readers have come back tome and said, you know, they're really
blown away by it, obviously,that's, you know, that's very gratifying.
Well, I'm not done yet.
Keep going, keep going.
This is great.
This is what I.
These are.
Some of, these are some of my notes.
Your myriad of references is stunning.
(20:36):
I mean, you have clearly beenquite the student of American culture
and trends because it shows inevery single paragraph.
Your reference to iconicmovies, iconic songs, TV shows, colloquialisms
are spot on and deftlyinserted without distraction because
they feel more like habitswithout drawing attention.
(20:58):
And I think that may be yourbiggest gift.
The way that you can get inthere, you can tell that you've drafted
it and then cut out all thenonsense or the, the pieces that
don't matter because it is so.
It is so minimalistic.
It's still clocking at 300pages, which is, to me, the kind
(21:20):
of the perfect length.
But it is so sparse, butgritty and dark, but then light and
heart.
I mean, the way you are ableto do that juggling, whether you
want to say juggle or spinplates, either one works.
You do it with such recklessabandon and I'm just so stinking
impressed.
Well, thank you.
I think that's the.
(21:41):
That's the.
That's the magic trick.
As an author, you want to workreally hard at something and have
it seem natural or effortless.
I suppose so.
I know when people and myselfand other authors, when someone comes
to you and says, oh, this bookwas great, I read it overnight, I
(22:02):
just couldn't put it down.
Part of you just thinks, oh,that's wonderful.
And then another part of you,if you're honest, is, oh, I spent
sometimes up to years workingon that book.
And you just dash through itin one night.
So it's a bit of a catch 22, I suppose.
But I think if people areenjoying it, and I mean the thing
about the references, and alot of people have mentioned that,
(22:23):
because, as you can probablytell, I'm not American, but I grew
up very much absorbed anddrowning in US culture, I suppose,
films and TV authors.
We mentioned Elmore Leonard,obviously a lot of Stephen King before
that, because that's the rules.
(22:44):
If you're.
If you're a child of the 80sand the early 90s, you have to read
Stephen King.
That's just how it is.
And I think, yeah, I justabsorbed all of that and what you
mentioned about, it's allthere, but you try not to overdo
it.
I mean, this book, it'saround, like you said, 300 pages.
(23:04):
It's round about 75,000 words.
The first draft was closer to85, 86.
And then gradually I tookthings out because they didn't need
to be there.
Essentially didn't push itstory forward.
Exactly.
It's like that Hemingwayiceberg theory, I don't know if you've
heard of that, where he talksabout, well, you see the tip of the
(23:28):
iceberg, but 80, 90, 95% of itis below the surface and you can't
see it, but you know it'sthere and you just instinctively
know it's there.
And he applied that to his writing.
He said, if you know enoughwhat's going on with the characters
and the story, you don't haveto show everything because it's implicit
(23:48):
and the reader, if they'rereally following it, will.
Will pick up on all of that.
So I think that's a similarthing to what I've tried to do.
I think that you, you have togive your reader credit for knowing
what the heck they're doing now.
Yeah, I mean, I, I've always,I've always done that.
I mean, I, I, I try and writefor a smart reader, essentially.
(24:13):
Mission accomplished.
Thank you.
Here.
Here I am, page 9 by page 10.
I'm starting to highlight.
I keep highlighting.
Yeah, I highlight until Ifinally went, okay, the fluorescent
yellow is overtaking the white page.
But if you don't mind, I'mgonna just, you know, here's little
(24:37):
lines that don't meananything, but I'm saving it for a
big crescendo here.
So guy says, still waiting.
You want the preliminaries?
I'm Will Smith, baby.
All ears.
Clever, quiet, easy.
Everyone gets it.
Instantly, all they saw wasthe crew wearing hockey mask.
Zero points for originality.
(24:58):
Every bozo watches Heat, andthen they want to dress the part.
The one by the door, he waspopped with a guard service weapon.
The other two were taken outby a second shooter.
We figure has to be themissing guy.
You tell me so much and so little.
Anyway.
Okay, yeah, that Heatreference was different.
(25:20):
I remember definitely puttingthat in there and thinking, it's
almost like me as the authormaking a metafictional point that.
I mean, he said, every bozowatches Heat and they want to dress
the part because I think mybook is.
I mean, anyone who's read itwill think, oh, okay, this guy's
seen Heat and loves Heat.
(25:40):
Because that was definitelythe starting off point.
I thought, I want to write anLA crime saga type of novel.
And again, it's like MilesDavis with the trumpet.
You just cannot get aroundHeat when it comes to that sort of
story.
So rather than pretend thatthe film Heat does not exist in the
world of the book, I tackledit directly.
But again, I tried not tooverdo it, but it was there.
(26:04):
But see, you did it in justenough in one paragraph that we already
know.
Okay, we know Thomas is a fanof Heat.
He gave a little nod to thefolks, to Pacino and Dinero, and
then he moved on.
Much like.
There's another scene thatreminds me of Den of Thieves with
Gerard Butler.
One of my favorite movies ofall time, and much better than the
(26:27):
den of Thieves 2.
By the way, the soundtrack byCliff Martinez I listened to probably
20 to 30 times a week when I'm writing.
I.
I kid you not, because that'sthe perfect combination of rhythm
and crescendo.
Did he do you?
Talking about the SoundTrackto the first one or the second one?
The first one for sure.
I don't know about the second one.
(26:48):
And he's also the guy who did Drive.
Drive, yeah.
Right.
I mean, drive was another.
Definitely another influence on.
On this book.
I'm actually talking about mybook, but in terms of influences
and references, they.
They actually probably more on the.
On the film side of things, itsounds like.
So.
Dude, I gotta.
I gotta tell you something.
I.
There is.
I can sit here and.
(27:08):
We don't have enough time.
I could rattle off.
I mean, here's what came to mind.
Yeah.
Heat, den of Thieves.
One and two more.
One, then two.
Drive.
The other WinF movie about thepreacher, I.
I can't pull it up right now.
There's a couple of.
(27:28):
One.
One with Ryan Golin as themotorcycle rider in the circus beyond
the Pines.
Yeah, Love pines.
Love the show.
I mean, this just drips withthat noir ambiance.
There's a sound bite right there.
All right, I want to jump to something.
Yeah.
I had to catch myselfstopping, but when I got to a scene,
(27:52):
had had just enough, thensmattered it with a punch.
Dialogue.
In fact, I think dialogue isyour mastercraft.
I'm going to go to that page.
What is it?
163.
Folks, listen to this.
If you'll bear with me as Igeek out over my new friend.
I'm going to give you more ofthe paragraph, but there's a line
inside here and I want to seeif you catch it.
I read this thing three times.
(28:13):
I had to stop and I go, dang,I like that sentence.
That's how geeked out I get.
Just outside of SanBernardino, where the suburban sprawl
of Los Angeles finally yieldsto desert.
Wind pulls off the road at aDenny's for some coffee.
Inside is the usual mix ofpeople allured by the hot food and
bright lights, families withkids at the table, young couples
(28:33):
talking and looking at theirphones, truckers that have grown
roots at the counterbullshitting with a waitress, others
with disintegrating lives andsilent stares out the window at the
passing traffic, either lostin memory or trying to forget.
That sentence right there.
Disintegrating lives andsilent stares out the window at the
(28:55):
passing traffic, either lostin memory or trying to forget.
That sentence tells an entire novella.
And then it follows up with ahabit that I find myself doing constantly.
Let me continue.
He would always invent storiesfor the customers to pass the time
in a place like this, imagingtheir lives and situations, something
(29:16):
he's always done on planes,too fixating on lone cars moving
along the road below,wondering if there was someone inside
looking up and doing the same.
I can't tell you how manytimes I've been at a cafe, at an
airport, at a park, and I seepeople passing, and I create this
whole world of their own.
And that must be a writer thing.
(29:36):
But that was so, so tasty, Thomas.
Yeah, that.
That.
Thank you.
That.
I mean, that.
That part is absolutely pulledstraight from my head and experience.
Certainly when I used to do alot more traveling in my day job
in shipping or espionage.
You spend a lot of time atairports and on your own waiting
(29:59):
for planes.
And.
Yeah, absolutely.
I would look down at cars and that.
That.
That whole part of it.
I'm really glad you picked upon that.
Someone else, another writer Iknow, he pulled that same.
Almost identical paragraph andsaid, I love this.
This just.
You could just put, you know,put this out on its own and.
(30:21):
And it tells so much in so little.
But, yeah, that.
That.
Yeah.
The line about either lost inmemory or trying to forget.
Forget.
Tell you a little secret, David.
That was actually inspired bythe Eagles song Hotel California.
And I told my other friendthis, and only when I told him, I
(30:46):
realized, oh, it's Hotel California.
And my book.
Some try to forget.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Some dance to remember andsome dance to forget.
Forget.
Yeah.
So I think that is definitelywhere that part came from.
And, yeah, the rest of it is.
And you'll know.
All writers will know.
You sit there sometimes andyou just look at people watching
(31:07):
and you just invent storiesand, you know, what are they doing?
Are they.
Is that couple breaking up?
What's she saying to him?
What's going on there?
And it's kind of a nosy thingthat we do, isn't it?
I used to live in Manhattan twice.
The second time was in 95.
First time was in 95, 96.
(31:29):
And I used to.
This one, I really starteddabbling and writing.
I would go to coffee shops andI would be working along, but I would
purposely eavesdrop on thefolks next to me, and I would pick
up bits and pieces, becausethere's two reasons.
A, you can learn a lot aboutdialogue, by the way, if you listen
to the way people talk.
(31:50):
Because we speak more inbrevity and almost code simplicity.
We don't fill in all the blanks.
So I love that.
It's a great education.
Also feeds ideas that I canthen weave into my story.
I'm not.
I'm not.
I'm not stealing their ideas.
I'm not Eavesdropping to, youknow, retain information.
(32:13):
I'm just listening for patterns.
I'm a big pattern guy.
I don't know why my brain iswired that way to listen for patterns
and see it.
But don't you find yourselfdoing the same thing with homework
all the time?
All the time.
It's very much like you say,you don't necessarily lift these
conversations wholesale, butyou'll hear certain things and the
rhythms of speech and it'lljump start something of your own
(32:38):
imagination.
My wife is a big eavesdropperas well.
She absolutely loves it.
I don't think she'll mind mesaying this, but, um.
And I mean, I remember once wewere on the Eurostar, it's gotta
be 15 years ago, and we.
We listened to some lady whowas, I think, talk about disintegrating
lives and the way she wastalking to her husband about, you
(33:01):
know, I felt bad evenlistening to this.
But they weren't being quietabout it, shall we say.
And even to this day, youknow, it's one of those little in
jokes that couples have, youknow, we'll reference that one conversation
and about this woman who wasfrom Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I can't believe I stillremember this.
But yeah, there's alwayslittle things like that, the nuances,
(33:25):
I think with the dialogue,other than the cultural references
and all that stuff which youhighlighted before.
There's always.
Part of me always really workson the rhythm of the sentences, almost.
Almost as if they're music ina way.
So you can add words, removewords, and it will change the whole
(33:46):
flow.
And I think that also tiesinto character as well, because the
way someone will say somethingis not the way.
The way I would say a certainthing is not the way that you would
say a certain thing.
And that really helps to build.
Build the characters.
Because I think for me,especially with.
Well, with all fiction, ifwe're talking about crime and thrillers,
(34:07):
I'm a firm believer that it'scharacter, character, character,
because the plot is the plot.
And for me it's almost likejust a scaffolding to get from one
page to the next to the next.
And I mean, I worked verybriefly at a nonfiction publishing
house many years ago, and oneof their big titles was Seven Basic
Plots, I think it was called.
(34:28):
And the argument is, as youcan imagine, that there are only
seven stories, essentially,and all stories since the dawn of
time are some version of oneof those seven plots.
I can't remember.
I mean, it's the hero goes ona journey or A Stranger Comes to
Town and a couple of otherthings and everything from Star wars
to Citizen Kane, you know, itfits into.
(34:50):
Into one of those sevenarchetypes, I suppose.
So I think the trick is to.
To differentiate yourselfwithin that sandbox or within that
plot.
And I think you do that with character.
I wish I could impress you andpull up that reference.
And I know the minute we hangup, I'm going to recall it.
(35:12):
You know, it's like Aristotleor Joseph Campbell or something.
But we're both.
We're both tracking the samething, and I.
And I love that idea, and it'snot much different.
And I've only been studyingthis recently, and I had a conversation
with a friend recently.
We're talking about theprolific audience for romance.
And when you look at romance,you know, boy meets girl, or boy
(35:34):
meets boy, or girl meets girlor whatever that thing is, but there's
like, about what, nine, maybe10 tropes, and they all.
All stories are just basicallymoving in and around of those tropes.
And it's much like what you'resaying, But I'm telling you, Thomas,
you friggin.
Nailed it.
You nailed it.
This is my favorite debutbook, easily of this year.
(35:57):
It's gonna be in the topthree, at least since I've started
the show.
And we're about to hit fouryears in one week.
Wow.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And I know how many books you read.
That is very high praise.
Thank you very much.
I'm a bit speechless, actually.
Well.
And I mean it with all sincerity.
(36:18):
I don't.
I really try to keep my.
I don't try to be verbose or,you know, silly, because when I read
a book that I go.
I mean, I remember the.
Let me see, Let me do thisWednesday's Quiet.
He doesn't look like much.
And now the two guys sittingacross the table are wondering if
he's ready to take down anarmored truck.
(36:40):
You could stop right there andgo, okay, what is about to happen?
And then it just gets betterand better and better.
And I love the way that youhave this.
It's like I thought of tennis.
It's like you're volleyingback between Thomas and Wynn.
You're going back and forth,and it's two different POVs.
And I love.
(37:00):
I didn't even know I likedthat style so much until I.
I've read a couple of otherbooks, but this one really jumps
out at me, like, so you gethis viewpoint of his world.
And of course, this guy andthe world around him and balls that.
But then you get this voice ofthis guy in his world and it's so
deftly done.
(37:21):
Thank you.
Yeah, I think it's alwaystricky to pull those types of stories.
I've got a writer friend whocalls it an arrow book or an arrow
structure where you have thetwo plots running parallel but then
starting to converge.
Starting to converge.
And I mean without anyspoilers for my book.
(37:43):
Once they meet and I've had acouple of readers get in touch with
me and said oh, that onechapter where it becomes.
I'm trying very hard not tospoil it but once they essentially
converge, they said oh wow.
That was, you know, that wasthe bit that was the part of the
(38:03):
book where I just, you know,fist pumped and you know that was,
that was, that was it for them.
And that was definitely bydesign from me.
So it goes into boosterrockets at that point.
You know, it's you, you kindof know it's coming.
But that, that scene wherethey happen upon one another, we'll
leave it at that.
And I'm like oh shit, here we go.
(38:25):
And then it just.
And it's like off to thefriggin races.
And I cannot say enough as weget to wrap because we're going to
have to bounce here.
We're.
We're a little bit over timebut I want to know what's in the
works next.
Is there a sequel?
Is there different spin?
Is there a TV series?
Is there a film?
Talk to me, Thomas.
(38:46):
I mean next for me in terms ofthe novels.
I've got a science fictionproject that's coming up soon.
The publisher keeps pushing meto finish but I'm a bit slow and
steady and careful and as he'smentioned in terms of the detail
and having that writing stylewhich is rich and full of illusions
(39:08):
and references to things.
That becomes a lot harder whenyou're setting a book several hundred
years in the future in space.
But I like to think it'salmost like dark neon dirt but in
space.
It's very similar in terms ofthe style and the language and it
is science fiction, but I'dsay it's like a crime thriller, political
(39:31):
espionage type of thing.
But yeah, set, set, set in.
Set in.
In the far future, shall wesay, in terms of a sequel.
Again, without spoilinganything, I think this one has, has
an ending which I don't know,some people think that it's a little
bit more ambiguous or open tocontinue depending on.
(39:55):
I guess it also depends onwhat the reader brings to the Table.
You instill in me a desire.
I'm one of those guys that, incase nobody knows this about me,
I'm not a big fan of rules.
I'm not big on following rules.
Probably my upbringing.
I never would have guessed.
Yeah.
And I'm an entrepreneur by spirit.
(40:18):
But not by bank account.
Because if it was by bankaccount, there's about a half dozen
books I've read this year thatI would grab, snag the rights to,
and then do everything I couldto put it into development as either
a TV series or a film.
Because I am, as you know, afilmmaker, closet filmmaker.
I mean, I have done.
(40:38):
Have done a film in the past.
God, I'd love to grab my.
Get my hands on this.
And if I could afford it, Iwould buy their rights.
Thank you.
Yeah, a lot of people havesaid the same thing.
I think it's.
It's obviously the setting andthe story and the dialogue.
It's really all there, so.
From your lips to God's ears.
(40:59):
Yes.
May she listen closely.
I do want to say.
And I'm going to sound likeI'm patting myself on the back.
I don't mean that.
But I remember when I read DonWinslow's selection of short stories,
I believe it was called Broken.
There was one.
When I was reading it, therewere two of my favorites, but one,
(41:20):
it burned a hole through my brain.
And I said to him, I'm like,if I had the money, I would snatch
the rights to this because ithas to be a movie.
And wouldn't you know of.
Is it crime 101?
It's crime 101.
Yep.
Yeah, I knew.
I mean, that story.
I was talking about it withsomeone earlier because it was a
(41:44):
review of my book, and it wasvery kind and thoughtful.
And they mentioned, you know, all.
You know, the Elmo, Leonard,the Heat.
But they mentionedspecifically crime 101.
I said yes, because that.
That really was one of the.
It was definitely the bestthing in that collection.
And it was one of the bestthings that Don Winslow's ever written,
(42:07):
which is saying something.
So I could not agree more.
It was the best.
It is handcrafted for a film.
It was the perfect length.
You got everything you wantedin the story, of course, then you
walked away and go, oh, man.
It was like.
I want to say, like 180 pages maybe.
(42:27):
Maybe not even that.
And I was like, everything was short.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It just like, oh, God.
Anyway, and so it got pickedup, and I would impress you.
Okay.
Yes.
It got picked up.
Oh, it's in product.
Matter of fact, hold on asecond now.
I've got to do this.
Crime 101 in production.
I can do this because it's my show.
Hold on.
Ladies and gentlemen, crime101 is an upcoming crime fiction
(42:50):
directed by Bart Layton, whoco wrote the screenplay with Peter
Strawn.
Straw.
And it is an adaptation of DonWinslow Novella crime 101 stars.
Check this out, my friend.
Chris Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalo,Barry Kilgan, Halle Berry and Monica
Barbaro.
Jennifer Jason Lee.
(43:10):
Yeah, I like that.
Nick Nolte, Tate Donovan.
I mean, come on.
Did you say Barry Kogan was in there?
Yeah.
Amazing.
Yes.
Dude, I'm telling you, it'sgoing to make so much money.
And my good friend ShaneSalerno at the Story Factory put
that deal together.
Big surprise there.
Yeah.
Well, okay, listen, I got towrap it up.
(43:32):
I do have one last question.
You know what?
What do I always close theshow with?
Rising Advance.
That's three words.
Yes.
Best writing advice.
Do you have any for.
I mean, I know you're brand new.
Ish.
You have several short storieswhich we didn't even cover, but we
will another time.
This is your day.
What have you learned in youryears of fine writing, young man?
(43:53):
Well, one of the things that Ipicked up, and I think it.
I wish I could remember whosaid this.
And if they ever hear this,please let me know because I definitely
want.
This is not an original ideafrom my head and it is more to do
with screenplays.
But they were saying that, youknow, with any genre thing.
And it goes back to what I wassaying about characters.
(44:18):
You can't rely on the genre thing.
So the alien, the monster,whatever, to provide all the conflict
and the drama.
You need something there to.
So that the genre thing willjust, like you mentioned, would just
be like a turbo boost to anunfolding conflict already.
I think the example they usedwas Die Hard, which we think of as
(44:42):
one of the greatest actionfilms of all time.
But they said, actually if youlook at Die Hard, how does it open?
It's a story about a coupleand the woman's moved to Los Angeles.
And the Bruce Willischaracter, I mean, he's a New York
guy through and through.
And so it's actually a storyabout their disintegrating marriage.
(45:05):
There's like an inequalitybetween them in terms of their earning
power and so forth.
And she's relocating and he'sanxious about the whole thing.
And he's not reallycomfortable in Los angeles with these
1980s yuppies and so forth.
(45:26):
And so you think, right, justin that encapsulated bit, it's a
conflict about marital drama,but then Hans Gruber shows up and
boom, we're in Die Hard.
And I think you can apply thatto a lot of other action films if
(45:46):
they're successful.
There's always something elsethat is there before the.
The terrorist or the alien orwhatever shows up to kick the story
up a notch.
So I think that's always.
I mean, it's certainly advicethat I always tell myself.
I think with my book it'sslightly different because it opens
with a bang, but then you haveto gradually filter in the characters
(46:09):
and why we should care aboutthem and why we should feel invested
in them as the story goes along.
So I think that's probably theone thing, especially if you're writing
crime fiction or thrillers.
And again, it goes back tothat thing about, well, there's only
so many amount of plots, so,you know, you have to do something
to help your book stand out.
(46:30):
And I think that's probably.
That's probably it.
Well, you said a magic pieceright there.
It's all about the characters.
If I am involved and engaged,engaged, I can be for or against.
I can love or I can hate.
I can love and hate simultaneously.
I can be frustrated.
But if I am engaged with thecharacters first and foremost, regardless
(46:53):
of anything else, whether it'sstyle or length or cover or whatever
bullshit else is out there,I'm in.
And that's the way it should be.
Just to piggyback on it, Idon't believe in that thing where
the protagonists or yourcharacters have to be likable.
I don't find that's true at all.
I think, I mean, in my bookyou've got a bad guy who's kind of
(47:16):
likable, and you've got thegood guy who's actually more of a
bad guy.
And, you know, people havesaid, oh, I, you know, I read this
book and I wasn't sure how tofeel about this guy.
He was good, then he was bad.
And, you know.
But I think as long as you'reengaged, that's.
That's the key thing.
Well, folks, don't.
Don't forget the fact thatthere are people in power.
(47:39):
I'm just going to use that asa generic phrase.
You may like that particularperson in power or you may not.
You may agree with thatparticular person in power or you
may not.
I'm not going to get into politics.
I make it a rule not to do that.
You could think he's an a hole.
You could think he's thegreatest thing since sliced bread.
But it comes down to, are youengaged with the person?
(48:01):
Are you following the story?
Anyway, point made.
Hey, one quick thing, folks.
I got to tell you this storybecause it's one of the things that
really made a difference anddrew my attention to Mr.
Thomas trying here.
And I.
And again, I'm not tooting my horn.
It's just.
It's something that happened.
And I want to share this storywith you.
And I'm going to say it asthough Thomas isn't sitting there.
(48:24):
This is when, you knowsomebody is serious about their work.
So I was.
I got the book, I started reading.
I knew I was in.
I went to his website.
I found the website.
It was a piece of shite.
I mean, it was just crap.
Guilty as Chubbs.
Yeah.
And then I went to get hisemail address, and I'm like, oh,
(48:44):
Jesus, his email address isnot even his name.
And I'm like, okay, what the frick?
So unbeknownst to him, and Itook a chance on doing this, I mean.
Cause he could sit, look, andbe, you know, who do you think you
are, Temple?
But I wrote him an email.
I carved out a bit of time onmy weekend to do this.
And I'm like, hey, Thomas, Iknow we don't know each other.
(49:06):
You're going to be on the show.
Just a couple things.
Your website sucks.
And then I said, hey, here's awebsite company I just learned about.
It's not expensive.
It's.
You can build it in a flash, Literally.
And not flash code, but flash fast.
And ps, get rid of thatfrigging email they send you to your
(49:29):
publisher.
No, it's not shotgun, honey.
It's somebody else.
And here's a suggestion, folks.
Not only did he rebuild thewebsite, sign up an email account,
he did it in 24 hours.
The next day, he said, hey,check this out.
Boom, it was done.
I was so impressed with thatbecause a lot of times people ask
(49:52):
me advice, David, what kind ofmicrophone do I need?
What kind of light do I need?
You know, how do I do I get apiece of equipment to make myself
sound better or whatever, andI'll sit there, I'll spend notes
and an hour crafting stuff,and they'll never do anything.
But the fact that you tookthat advice did.
It just told me so much about you.
So all of that is to say kudosto you.
(50:12):
Not to me, but to you.
Thank you.
No, I mean, it's I'm alwayswilling to listen to advice.
It doesn't necessarily meanI'll follow it.
But when.
I mean, I knew the websitethat I had wasn't the greatest.
It's not my area of expertise.
Obviously, I'm a writer.
I'm not a web designer or amarketer or any of that stuff.
(50:35):
And I think until recently,certainly until I was a published
author, I just thought, oh,well, I'll worry about that.
You know, I'll cross thatbridge when I come to it.
And then wouldn't you know, Icame to the bridge and I was still.
Still on the same shitty website.
And you said, look, and you'revery polite, more than you needed
(50:56):
to be.
You said, like, tell me if I'mtalking out of turn.
And I said, look, David, Iknow the website's not the greatest,
and it was just the kick inthe pants that I needed.
And you're right, it wasactually a lot easier than I.
Than I thought it would be to.
To clean up and have itlooking very slick and professional.
Thomastrang.com so it's all.
(51:17):
It's all there.
You can sign up for, get intouch with me.
There's all my books,different stories, different interviews
and things of that nature thatI've done.
So it's all there in the oneslick, snazzy place.
And how about that email service?
(51:38):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's perfect.
So that goes.
Yeah, there's a contact pageon the website, and it goes straight
to the new address.
Yeah.
And it's highly secure.
They're based out of Switzerland.
Anyway, I was gonna say.
I'm not gonna rain onanybody's parade.
When I first came out as anauthor, I hired this particular company,
(52:00):
and they were a sponsor for ashort while.
It was very expensive.
They're nice people.
They really are.
You don't need to drop thatkind of cash for a website.
And honestly, if you ever wantto know, as a listener what to do,
contact me.
I'll help you out.
And I'm not getting anykickbacks from this anyway.
Thomas Trying.
I cannot say enough nice things.
(52:21):
Dark Neon Dirt is the book.
It is riveting.
This is a book, folks, youhave got to buy.
I know I'm late to the party.
I say that often.
I heard about this in March.
I just happened to be stacked.
I got a few things going on inmy life, and I'm sorry I'm late to
the game.
But, boy, am I glad I'm there.
Because as Nick Kolakowski,mutual friend here Says fast and
(52:43):
smooth and incredible heist novel.
You're going to want to pickthis up and read it.
And if you ever want to do aaudiobook, count me in, because I
would be honored to jump onthat board.
And I am thinking about an audiobook.
My wife has been on my caseabout it because she only read the
book probably about the sametime that you did, David.
(53:05):
She only read it when it wasavailable in paperback.
And a couple of other writersI know, I've mentioned that, and
they said, wait, your wifenever read it before it was published?
I said, no, it's crime fiction.
It's not really her thing.
They were shocked.
They said, my wife wouldn'teven let me leave the house without
a shopping list that wasapproved by her.
And it wasn't until shestarted reading it that I thought,
(53:28):
I'm actually quite anxiousthat she'll enjoy it.
And she did, thankfully.
And she's not one to.
If she didn't like it, shewouldn't mince words.
Again, it came down to thecharacters, I think, because she
thought, it's a crime thriller.
There'll be explosions andninjas jumping out of bushes and
all this sort of stuff.
And there.
There is an element of that,but it.
It comes down to thecharacters, and there's romance,
(53:50):
too.
So, yeah, yeah, you.
You get it all, folks.
In 300 pages, which is.
I'll tell you, Phillips is.
He's nailing it.
Get him on the show, forcrying out loud.
It's just.
It's.
It's a.
It's a perfect book.
There's not a wasted bit in there.
All right.
Want to learn more?
As you just heard from him,and he beat me, too.
@thomas trang.com.
(54:11):
thomas, please tell me you'llcome back on the show again.
Absolutely.
I had great fun.
Thank you.
Was that right?
Well, you haven't read thebook yet, but you will.
Dark neon dirt.
You're gonna read it.
Thanks, Thomas.
I think I got a new buddy.
Folks, welcome to June, andguess what?
We launch season nine, that'snext week, with one of my favorite
(54:35):
authors.
The beautiful, the talented,the lovely, the charming.
She is a master craftsperson.
Megan Abbott, El Dorado Drive.
Wow.
Wow.
Did you read the turnout?
Did you read any of her stuff?
(54:55):
People cannot say enough nice things.
Me either.
Megan Abbott is a hell of a writer.
There's some inside scoop onthis particular book that you're
going to want to hear about.
You may not have heard itanywhere else, but you're going to
hear it on the Thriller Zone,your number one podcast for thriller
fiction.
Oh, yeah.
(55:16):
Join us next week as we kickoff season nine of the Thriller Zone.
I'm gonna scoot out of here.
I'm talk to you next time foranother edition of the Thriller Zone.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.