August 4, 2024 • 10 mins
Topics: 1) Sexual sin; and 2) Spiritual learning.
This episode of "Things I Wish I Could Say in Sunday School" delves into two main topics: sexual sin and spiritual learning.
We explore Alma's message to his son Corianton, questioning traditional interpretations of sexual sin and its severity. The episode argues against the idea that consensual sexual acts outside the church's law of chastity are sins next to murder, emphasizing the harm caused by such teachings within the church and family dynamics.
Additionally, we highlight Alma's approach to spiritual learning as outlined in Alma chapter 40. The episode examines various methodologies Alma used, such as diligent inquiry, reasoning, divine revelation, learning from others, and scripture. This multi-faceted approach is presented as a master class in spiritual learning, encouraging listeners to adopt a similar breadth of methods in their own spiritual journeys.
Join us for an honest and thought-provoking discussion that aims to foster deeper understanding and healthier perspectives within faith communities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
This is Things I Wish I Could Say in Sunday School. I wanted to share some thoughts
and ideas that are different than what we usually hear.
My goal is to be really honest rather than inherently faith-promoting.
I hope these ideas may spark some interesting discussions with your friends,
families, or classes. Please enjoy.
(00:23):
This is the lesson for August 5th through 11th, Alma chapters 39 through 40.
Two, today's topics are sexual sin and spiritual learning.
This lesson covers Alma's message to his youngest son, Corianton.
A lot of the manual discusses sexual sin, and they bring up pornography repeatedly.
(00:44):
Alma says that Corianton left the ministry to go be with a harlot.
Alma says that these things are abominable, and most abominable above all sins
except for the shedding of innocent blood and denying the Holy Ghost.
This has been interpreted that sexual sin is sin next to murder and gravity.
But I think it's not entirely clear from the text whether Alma is talking about
(01:08):
sex with Isabel the harlot or abandoning the ministry as the abominable sin.
Alma goes on to talk more in depth about denying the Holy Ghost,
which I think is more closely related to abandoning the ministry.
Alma does mention lusts later. later, but again, Corianton's lust could be the
reason for the sin of abandoning the ministry, not sex as the main sin itself.
(01:32):
Now I want to refute the idea that sexual sin is next to murder.
I don't agree with this at all. If you want to argue that sexual assault or
rape are sins next to murder, I would agree.
But not just sex that falls outside of our very narrow parameters of the law
of chastity. That's ridiculous.
Most consensual sex between two adults outside the bounds of the law of chastity doesn't harm anyone.
(01:57):
I cannot rank that above abuse or pretty much any sin where you are harming other people.
I think this is something that we have messed up pretty seriously as a church and culture.
We see profound sexual shame that most people in the church have to unlearn
as they grow and progress.
Even if they've never stepped out of bounds of the law of chastity,
(02:21):
most people internalize the idea that their sexuality is dangerous and is in
opposition to spirituality, which is wrong and a very harmful idea.
People go into marriages with really messed up mentalities as many begin sexual
relationships for the first time.
It makes marriage harder, I think, than if our messaging around sexuality was healthier.
(02:43):
For a church that supposedly prioritizes family, I think we are doing families
a lot of harm with our teachings around sexuality.
This will probably sound weird, but Alma chapter 40 is my favorite chapter in the Book of Mormon.
And that is because I feel like it outlines how people learn spiritual principles.
(03:04):
I'm going to go into detail and read lots of passages from this chapter.
It begins with Alma telling Corianton
that he can tell that Corianton has questions about resurrection.
In verse 3, Alma says, Now I unfold unto you a mystery, but I show unto you
one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know,
that is concerning the resurrection.
(03:26):
I really like that Alma says diligent inquiry. He had to put in effort to learn
an aspect of this principle.
I think that Alma's diligent inquiry likely encompassed several spiritual practices,
but I think that prayer is the most obvious based on the phrase inquire diligently of God.
Now I'm going to read verses 4 and 5.
(03:48):
Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead.
Now when this time cometh, no one knows, but God knoweth the time which is appointed.
Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time,
that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not.
For God knoweth all these things, and it sufficeth me to know that this is the
(04:09):
case, that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.
The mystery that Alma learned is that there is a time appointed by God for resurrection.
But Alma clearly states that this thing he learned is limited.
He doesn't know when it will be.
He doesn't know if there will be multiple times that people are resurrected.
Alma also states that it doesn't matter that he doesn't know these details.
(04:31):
The specifics won't bring him closer to God and help him treat others with greater
kindness, which is really important to recognize.
It's easy to get caught up on details and end up missing the main point.
Now I'm going to read verse 6. Now there must need to be a space betwixt the
time of death and the time of resurrection.
(04:52):
The phrase, there must needs be, means that Alma is using reasoning now.
This wasn't revealed to him by God. He figured this part out because it's the
only thing that makes sense to him.
He used his brain and logic to learn a spiritual principle.
I'm going to skip down to verse 11.
Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection.
(05:15):
Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel that the spirits of all men,
as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, Yea, the spirits of all
men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
Here, Alma says he learned a part about resurrection from an angel.
I cannot really relate to that part personally, but it's one of the many different
(05:37):
modalities cited in this chapter that helped Alma learn.
I think it's more reasonable for us to feel like we learned something spiritual from the Holy Ghost.
Alma goes on to briefly describe spirit paradise and prison.
I'm skipping down to verse 15.
Now, there are some that have understood that the state of happiness and the
state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection.
(05:59):
Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the
soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.
In this verse, Alma says that some have understood, meaning that he's learning from other people too.
Alma wants to see what other people think, because listening to other ideas
(06:23):
help him hone his own ideas.
I'm skipping down to verses 20-22.
Now, my son, I do not say that the resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ.
Behold, I give it as my opinion. The souls and the bodies are reunited of the
righteous at the resurrection of Christ and his ascension into heaven.
But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say.
(06:45):
But this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection
of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery,
until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth and be reunited,
both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
(07:06):
Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken
by the mouths of the prophets.
In verse 20, Alma uses the phrase, I do not say, because he wants to be clear.
It's easy for people to misinterpret others.
Alma also says, I give it as my opinion. This may be my favorite phrase in the
(07:27):
chapter because Alma is being clear that he feels confident in what he's saying, but not fully.
This is not as strong as something that he has reasoned out or learned by the
Spirit through prayer or an angel.
Alma still believes it, but not as strongly as most of what he says in this
chapter. I really like how clear he is being.
He's basically saying there is a spectrum, some aspects I'm pretty certain about
(07:51):
and others not as much, and some I just don't know.
I respect that because it's honest and not something I feel like I hear from
men in positions of authority enough.
Verse 22 mentions things which have been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.
To me, that's scripture, another tool Alma utilized to learn about the spiritual
(08:11):
principle of resurrection.
Alright, if you stuck with me through this so far, I want to outline a couple things.
First, there are at least five different methodologies used by Alma to learn about resurrection.
First, diligent inquiry or prayer.
Second, reason or logic. Third,
(08:32):
an angel, but I would maybe downgrade this to the Holy Ghost for me.
Fourth, other people. And fifth, words of the prophets or scripture.
Alma used at least all of these different methods to learn aspects of resurrection.
Think about what this means for us and our own spiritual learning.
(08:52):
Are you utilizing many different methods to expand your own spiritual learning?
The second thing I want to outline is the range of confidence in what Alma is teaching.
He goes from, I know, all the way to, I don't know.
I also get the sense that Alma is more confident in the part that he reasoned
out than other aspects of resurrection.
(09:14):
Alma is also clear when he has a strong hunch and says it's his opinion.
Or maybe he sees some evidence on both sides, but leans toward his opinion based
on the evidence. I love that Alma is clear that there is no perfect clarity.
He is still learning. I really, really love this chapter.
(09:34):
I read it many times before I saw the sort of master class in spiritual learning
that is there just beneath the surface.
This is one of the reasons that I value scriptures. I feel like I learn a lot.
It can help us put ideas together and figure things out.
It's one of the tools that Alma used, and it's one of the tools that I use too,
(09:57):
to try to understand life, God, and my own spiritual progression.
That's it for this week. Thanks for listening. Please share with family and
friends. Until next time.
This is Things I Wish I Could Say in Sunday School. I wanted to share some thoughts
and ideas that are different than what we usually hear.
My goal is to be really honest rather than inherently faith-promoting.
I hope these ideas may spark some interesting discussions with your friends,
families, or classes. Please enjoy.
(00:23):
This is the lesson for August 5th through 11th, Alma chapters 39 through 40.
Two, today's topics are sexual sin and spiritual learning.
This lesson covers Alma's message to his youngest son, Corianton.
A lot of the manual discusses sexual sin, and they bring up pornography repeatedly.
(00:44):
Alma says that Corianton left the ministry to go be with a harlot.
Alma says that these things are abominable, and most abominable above all sins
except for the shedding of innocent blood and denying the Holy Ghost.
This has been interpreted that sexual sin is sin next to murder and gravity.
But I think it's not entirely clear from the text whether Alma is talking about
(01:08):
sex with Isabel the harlot or abandoning the ministry as the abominable sin.
Alma goes on to talk more in depth about denying the Holy Ghost,
which I think is more closely related to abandoning the ministry.
Alma does mention lusts later. later, but again, Corianton's lust could be the
reason for the sin of abandoning the ministry, not sex as the main sin itself.
(01:32):
Now I want to refute the idea that sexual sin is next to murder.
I don't agree with this at all. If you want to argue that sexual assault or
rape are sins next to murder, I would agree.
But not just sex that falls outside of our very narrow parameters of the law
of chastity. That's ridiculous.
Most consensual sex between two adults outside the bounds of the law of chastity doesn't harm anyone.
(01:57):
I cannot rank that above abuse or pretty much any sin where you are harming other people.
I think this is something that we have messed up pretty seriously as a church and culture.
We see profound sexual shame that most people in the church have to unlearn
as they grow and progress.
Even if they've never stepped out of bounds of the law of chastity,
(02:21):
most people internalize the idea that their sexuality is dangerous and is in
opposition to spirituality, which is wrong and a very harmful idea.
People go into marriages with really messed up mentalities as many begin sexual
relationships for the first time.
It makes marriage harder, I think, than if our messaging around sexuality was healthier.
(02:43):
For a church that supposedly prioritizes family, I think we are doing families
a lot of harm with our teachings around sexuality.
This will probably sound weird, but Alma chapter 40 is my favorite chapter in the Book of Mormon.
And that is because I feel like it outlines how people learn spiritual principles.
(03:04):
I'm going to go into detail and read lots of passages from this chapter.
It begins with Alma telling Corianton
that he can tell that Corianton has questions about resurrection.
In verse 3, Alma says, Now I unfold unto you a mystery, but I show unto you
one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know,
that is concerning the resurrection.
(03:26):
I really like that Alma says diligent inquiry. He had to put in effort to learn
an aspect of this principle.
I think that Alma's diligent inquiry likely encompassed several spiritual practices,
but I think that prayer is the most obvious based on the phrase inquire diligently of God.
Now I'm going to read verses 4 and 5.
(03:48):
Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead.
Now when this time cometh, no one knows, but God knoweth the time which is appointed.
Now, whether there shall be one time, or a second time, or a third time,
that men shall come forth from the dead, it mattereth not.
For God knoweth all these things, and it sufficeth me to know that this is the
(04:09):
case, that there is a time appointed that all shall rise from the dead.
The mystery that Alma learned is that there is a time appointed by God for resurrection.
But Alma clearly states that this thing he learned is limited.
He doesn't know when it will be.
He doesn't know if there will be multiple times that people are resurrected.
Alma also states that it doesn't matter that he doesn't know these details.
(04:31):
The specifics won't bring him closer to God and help him treat others with greater
kindness, which is really important to recognize.
It's easy to get caught up on details and end up missing the main point.
Now I'm going to read verse 6. Now there must need to be a space betwixt the
time of death and the time of resurrection.
(04:52):
The phrase, there must needs be, means that Alma is using reasoning now.
This wasn't revealed to him by God. He figured this part out because it's the
only thing that makes sense to him.
He used his brain and logic to learn a spiritual principle.
I'm going to skip down to verse 11.
Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection.
(05:15):
Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel that the spirits of all men,
as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, Yea, the spirits of all
men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
Here, Alma says he learned a part about resurrection from an angel.
I cannot really relate to that part personally, but it's one of the many different
(05:37):
modalities cited in this chapter that helped Alma learn.
I think it's more reasonable for us to feel like we learned something spiritual from the Holy Ghost.
Alma goes on to briefly describe spirit paradise and prison.
I'm skipping down to verse 15.
Now, there are some that have understood that the state of happiness and the
state of misery of the soul, before the resurrection, was a first resurrection.
(05:59):
Yea, I admit it may be termed a resurrection, the raising of the spirit or the
soul and their consignation to happiness or misery, according to the words which have been spoken.
In this verse, Alma says that some have understood, meaning that he's learning from other people too.
Alma wants to see what other people think, because listening to other ideas
(06:23):
help him hone his own ideas.
I'm skipping down to verses 20-22.
Now, my son, I do not say that the resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ.
Behold, I give it as my opinion. The souls and the bodies are reunited of the
righteous at the resurrection of Christ and his ascension into heaven.
But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say.
(06:45):
But this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection
of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery,
until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth and be reunited,
both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.
(07:06):
Yea, this bringeth about the restoration of those things of which has been spoken
by the mouths of the prophets.
In verse 20, Alma uses the phrase, I do not say, because he wants to be clear.
It's easy for people to misinterpret others.
Alma also says, I give it as my opinion. This may be my favorite phrase in the
(07:27):
chapter because Alma is being clear that he feels confident in what he's saying, but not fully.
This is not as strong as something that he has reasoned out or learned by the
Spirit through prayer or an angel.
Alma still believes it, but not as strongly as most of what he says in this
chapter. I really like how clear he is being.
He's basically saying there is a spectrum, some aspects I'm pretty certain about
(07:51):
and others not as much, and some I just don't know.
I respect that because it's honest and not something I feel like I hear from
men in positions of authority enough.
Verse 22 mentions things which have been spoken by the mouths of the prophets.
To me, that's scripture, another tool Alma utilized to learn about the spiritual
(08:11):
principle of resurrection.
Alright, if you stuck with me through this so far, I want to outline a couple things.
First, there are at least five different methodologies used by Alma to learn about resurrection.
First, diligent inquiry or prayer.
Second, reason or logic. Third,
(08:32):
an angel, but I would maybe downgrade this to the Holy Ghost for me.
Fourth, other people. And fifth, words of the prophets or scripture.
Alma used at least all of these different methods to learn aspects of resurrection.
Think about what this means for us and our own spiritual learning.
(08:52):
Are you utilizing many different methods to expand your own spiritual learning?
The second thing I want to outline is the range of confidence in what Alma is teaching.
He goes from, I know, all the way to, I don't know.
I also get the sense that Alma is more confident in the part that he reasoned
out than other aspects of resurrection.
(09:14):
Alma is also clear when he has a strong hunch and says it's his opinion.
Or maybe he sees some evidence on both sides, but leans toward his opinion based
on the evidence. I love that Alma is clear that there is no perfect clarity.
He is still learning. I really, really love this chapter.
(09:34):
I read it many times before I saw the sort of master class in spiritual learning
that is there just beneath the surface.
This is one of the reasons that I value scriptures. I feel like I learn a lot.
It can help us put ideas together and figure things out.
It's one of the tools that Alma used, and it's one of the tools that I use too,
(09:57):
to try to understand life, God, and my own spiritual progression.
That's it for this week. Thanks for listening. Please share with family and
friends. Until next time.
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