September 5, 2025 • 43 mins
Burnout, Normalized Stress, and Reclaiming Balance with Michelle Niemeyer
Burnout isn’t just a buzzword—it’s a growing epidemic in high-pressure careers like law, medicine, and corporate leadership. In this episode of Tim Stating the Obvious, I sit down with attorney Michelle Niemeyer to unpack the reality of burnout and the hidden dangers of “normalized stress.” Michelle shares her powerful story of pushing past her limits as a lawyer, only to face severe health consequences, including an autoimmune condition triggered by chronic stress.
We explore why ignoring stress is so dangerous, how integrating your personal and professional life creates healthier relationships, and why leaders must treat employees as whole human beings—not just job titles. Michelle introduces practical tools like identifying your “sparks”—the activities that bring joy and energy—and conducting a “sword analysis” to cut out goals that don’t align with your true desires.
This conversation goes deeper than quick fixes. We talk about holistic wellness, workplace culture, leadership strategies that build trust and loyalty, and even how lifestyle changes can reverse long-term health conditions. Whether you’re a leader trying to reduce turnover, a professional facing burnout, or someone seeking clarity in your next chapter, this episode offers a roadmap to balance, resilience, and purpose.
👉 Tune in to learn how to break free from the cycle of stress, strengthen your relationships, and create a life that fuels—not drains—you.
Connect with Michelle Niemeyer:
Website: https://www.michelleniemeyer.com/the-art-of-bending-time
email: michelle@michelleniemeyer.com
Connect with Tim:
Website: timstatingtheobvious.com
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/timstatingtheobvious
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfDcITKUdniO8R3RP0lvdw
Instagram: @TimStating
Tiktok: @timstatingtheobvious
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Staton (00:02):
This is Tim Staton with Tim stating the obvious.
What is this podcast about?
Tim (00:07):
It's simple. You are entitled to great leadership.
Tim Staton (00:10):
Everywhere you go, whether it's to church.
Tim (00:13):
Whether it's to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them.
Tim Staton (00:22):
Into everyday, relatable and usable advice.
Disclaimer (00:25):
And a quick disclaimer. This show, process or service by trademark, trademark, manufacturer,
otherwise does not necessarily constitute an apply the endorsement of anyone that I employed
by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show, are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of any employer.
Tim (00:36):
Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
What if you could bend time, not just get more done, but heal your body, reclaim your energy,
and rediscover joy in your work?
In this episode, we dive into ways stress makes us sick and how to master your health.
Doing stress management and lifestyle shifts that can help reverse chronic health conditions.
(00:58):
From learning small mindset shifts, creating strong relationships and a holistic approach to
work and life can shrink years of struggle and to moments of clarity and success.
And I'm really excited to introduce our guest today, Michelle Niemeyer, who is a subject matter
expert on the art of bending time.
(01:19):
So, Michelle, welcome to the show.
Michelle Niemeyer (01:21):
Hi Tim, thank you so much.
And thank you for the introduction.
Tim (01:26):
In your own words, why don't you.
Tim Staton (01:28):
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Tim (01:29):
And your background and how we came to where we are today.
Michelle Niemeyer (01:33):
Sure. So I was a lawyer for 33 years.
And if you know lawyers, you know that it can be a very highly stressful profession.
It can be an all consuming profession.
It can be one where you don't see results for a really, really, really long time from the time
(01:54):
you actually do the work, which can make it a little hard.
And about 20 years into that time frame, I got very, very burned out.
And when I say burned out, I mean I'd show up at work, go through the motions.
Resented, really being a lawyer. Resented.
(02:16):
My clients questioned why I was there, didn't really want to continue, but didn't know where
to go if I were to leave.
And ultimately I had a couple changes that happened during that time frame, but the biggest
of which, and the big sort of everybody has their big wake up call, right.
(02:38):
I thought I was doing better. I was, I.
I had started trying to make a point of looking for what I enjoyed in the work and doing more of that.
I had been really working with some people I liked a lot.
I'd had some good results.
Things were feeling a lot better than they had been.
And then one day I went to bed and as I'm lying there on my back, I had this excruciating pain
(03:05):
that was like on my right side, kind of if you put your hand on your, above your hip, right
there on my side, I felt just this horrible pain.
And I stood up and I walked around a little.
And when I stood up and walked around, I felt fine.
And then I'd lie down and I'd be in pain and then I'd stand up and I'd feel fine.
It was the weirdest thing ever.
(03:27):
And that first night I went to sleep at about 1:30.
I'd probably gone to bed at about 10.
And I just kept, you know, couldn't sleep.
The next day, the same thing happened.
I was fine during the day.
I'd get up, I'd walk around, I'd sit.
It was all when I was horizontal on my back that I had this horrible pain.
(03:48):
And the second day, I was literally lying there in bed looking at my phone, looking things up
on WebMD and things on Google, describing, you know, symptom checkers, looking for what's going on with me.
And it looked a lot like I might have a appendicitis.
And all I could think was, I have a very high pain tolerance threshold.
(04:12):
I've had doctors shocked at things I've tolerated and then gone into the doctor and they've
been like, how did you not come to us sooner?
So I was like, I'm going to be that person who dies of sepsis because their appendix blew up, right?
And so I ended up that time I decided to get out of bed at three in the morning.
(04:33):
And I went to the hospital.
And at the emergency room, they did all kinds of things.
You know, they, they did a, they did blood testing first, then they did an ultrasound and they thought I had gallstones.
They thought it was one of two things.
They thought it was either something related to my thoracic spine because I'd been, I'd started
(04:54):
running again and my back was bothering me or gallstones. So I stopped running.
Of course, I didn't go to the doctor about gallstones.
I was like, oh, no, I can handle that with nutrition.
I'll just eat better and whatever.
And so I didn't go to the doctor.
I did all the things I knew to eat less, exercise more.
(05:18):
You know, for about a month I just did that and lost about five pounds.
And then I started doing beach body workouts.
I mean, you may know, like P90X, those kind of things.
And I signed up as a coach to get the discount, which was a very pivotal thing for me in my life.
Because as a lawyer, you don't get access to personal development, really.
(05:41):
At least then law firms didn't, you know, they weren't paying attention to any of that.
There was no such thing as personal development for lawyers.
And most of us weren't even aware of it.
All of a sudden, I am, I'm given access to Brendon Burchard and Rachel Hollis and all these
people who would speak at our conferences.
And we had access to Success magazine and, you know, LE Brown, all these people.
(06:06):
And I start learning about that.
And so about a year into this, it's great.
I'm getting access to personal development. I'm feeling good.
I'm in literally the best shape I'd been in since probably my junior year in high school.
And I one day go to the doctor for a uti, and instead of giving me an antibiotic, he did give me an antibiotic.
(06:32):
But he says, you know, you haven't really had any blood testing in a while.
Why don't we do just run a typical panel?
And he runs this comprehensive metabolic panel with the liver stuff and discovers that the liver
enzymes that were elevated that made them think in the hospital I had gallstones were twice
as high as they had been a year before.
(06:56):
So this is now obviously really scary stuff.
And he's looking at it going, this can't be gallstones.
You're not having pain from gallstones.
I don't know enough about this.
You need to get to see a specialist.
And I did, and they diagnosed me with an autoimmune disease called primary biliary cholangitis,
which is, if you look it up, ppc. It's very scary.
(07:16):
And, you know, note to self, don't ever go on to Google and look for things first, because it's just truly frightening.
To this day, if you look at the Mayo Clinic description of this disease, it said, it basically
says you, you know, it's not.
It's treatable, but it's not curable.
And it's likely that you'll need a liver transplant kind of stuff. It's very scary.
(07:39):
And I saw a doctor.
That doctor wanted me to get a biopsy. I refused.
I had done a bunch of research.
Europe was not doing biopsies anymore.
It wasn't part of the standard of care there because there's a kind of ultrasound that can replace that.
And my attitude was, I'm not going to have you stick a needle in me and take part of my liver
(08:00):
out if you can do an image, you know.
And he told me they didn't have that.
And I said, well, what would you use it for?
Would it make a difference in my treatment?
He said, no, but it'll help us stage the disease.
And I said, well, is the treatment different with a different stage? He says, no.
And I said, then I'm not going to get the biopsy. What's the point?
(08:22):
And at that point, he fired me as his patient because he said I didn't comply with him.
And if I wasn't going to do what he said he didn't want me as a patient.
I was like, great, thank you.
And he referred me to a woman who worked for him who, it turned out, was the expert in his department
on this disease, who immediately said to me, no, you don't need to have the biopsy.
(08:45):
I'm not sure why he said that to you.
Oh, and by the way, I have a research study, and we can use this machine for free for you.
I'll just sign you up for the study. So.
So I was signed up as part of a research study. I got.
I get my fibro scan, they call it, and my first score on that was 8.2.
(09:07):
What the first doctor had told me was, if the drug works for you, then and it stays in and it
stays in remission, you can basically hope that things stay the same.
The damage won't get worse, it won't get better, but it won't progress.
It'll just kind of stay the way it is, and that's okay.
Like, you know, you're in a place where that's not so bad.
(09:29):
So that was what I was told to hope for.
Meanwhile, I have a friend who's a naturopath, and I had a relative who cured pancreatic cancer with nutrition.
So I was not one who was afraid of stepping a bit outside of the medical box.
(09:49):
And so I did a pretty extreme.
I did a raw foods diet for about six months, and then I did an elimination diet where I eliminated
a lot of things that I hadn't yet eliminated, like gluten and dairy and lentils and, you know,
all these things, and over time added them back in, discovered I had a horrific gluten condition.
(10:13):
I really don't do well with gluten at all.
Later discovered 40% of the people who have PPC also have celiac disease.
So that might be a thing for me. I don't know.
I'LL never get a valid test because it's an antibody test.
So I'm not going to eat gluten to find out.
So anyway, so I did all that.
(10:37):
And this is in the context of.
Meanwhile, I've kind of, you know, I've had this terrible burnout situation with my work.
I was, you know, continuing working as a lawyer, continuing to do the hours I did, sometimes
continuing to have the level of stress I was having, but it started to feel different.
(11:01):
And over a period of time, I realized not only was it feeling different, it was actually feeling good.
Like I was starting to like my job again.
I was lighting up about things again.
And I was really, I was more clear about what I wanted.
What I realized was there were a series of things that I did, all of which helped create this
(11:27):
situation where burnout was in my past.
I had really good clarity about who I was and what I wanted.
And I'd learned to manage stress really well.
I'd learned to change my lifestyle in ways that helped me on the health front.
But I'd also, because of my exposure to the personal development, I'd made massive changes in my mindset.
(11:50):
And all of that together, I think, really created this systemic change that allowed me to eliminate burnout.
And I created a program called the Art of Bending Time to help people eliminate burnout.
And that doesn't maybe make sense at first, but the reason it makes sense is that I realized,
(12:15):
looking back when I was trying to figure out the person I was at the time when I was probably
becoming burned out and didn't know it yet, what was I doing then?
What was I looking at as a problem?
What did I think I needed?
And what I thought I needed was help with time management.
So what the Art of Bending Time does is it does help you with time management, but it helps
(12:40):
you through all these other things in a way that bulletproofs you against burnout and creates
a situation where then you can create really solid goals and you can find a way to build a team
and plan your growth and work toward those goals in a way that just revs everything up and makes it happen fast.
Tim (13:00):
So there's a lot to unpack there.
What would you say your direct correlation to your job and, you know, your, your type A personality
of, of going after getting it burning the midnight oil to like 3am and the impact on your health and burnout?
I, as we talked earlier, I'm hearing the same thing from a lot of people, like, hey, I'm worked,
(13:25):
I'm stressed, and I got Sick, and then everybody's shocked.
So what is that correlation that you see?
Michelle Niemeyer (13:32):
Yeah, well, and I think it's a lot of things.
It's a ton of things.
Because you think about, first of all, autoimmunity is not a guarantee you have a genetic predisposition to an autoimmune condition.
Like you could have a genetic predisposition to having heart problems or to having various other things.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (13:58):
However, that genetic predisposition doesn't mean you'll get the thing, and it doesn't mean you'll get.
There are a lot of different kinds of autoimmune conditions.
And what happens to a lot of people is they may get multiple ones.
There are a lot of people who have three or four different kinds of autoimmune diagnoses where
(14:22):
really at the base of it, your body is fighting itself because your body has had this kind of
poor management over time, in my opinion.
I'm not a doctor, but I've read a lot.
And the part I didn't tell you is that 8.2 initial fibroscan is now down under six, which is stage zero.
(14:48):
I went from stage two to stage zero over about eight years.
So, you know, in a, in a condition that I was told would not improve, I would be lucky if I stopped it. So, you know, that's.
It is possible to actually change these things and not just stop them.
(15:09):
There's now we know through epigenetics that you can actually turn off the genes that turn on
various kinds of conditions that can be problematic for you.
So they now know that you, you literally can turn off these genes and you won't have the thing and you.
Tim (15:27):
Can turn them off through lifestyle change, diet.
So how can you reverse that?
Michelle Niemeyer (15:34):
It's really an all encompassing thing.
And I think this is where the.
How can you reverse it?
It's really hard for me to say what I did or what constellation of things I did.
And I think it's a constellation of things.
It's a very significant overall change in how you live your life.
I used to have a very high level of chronic normalized stress.
(16:01):
I was like, I was here all the time, right?
There was this, this stress in my life, and it was.
You could feel it coming off of me.
I've seen people who I hadn't seen in a long time who were like, you're like a different person.
And it's because they knew that, Michelle.
And then I see people I knew in high school and they're like, oh, you haven't changed at all, right?
(16:27):
Because they knew Michelle before law school and before the chronic stress.
So, you know, part of it is you literally get to this place where you're normalizing a chronic level of stress.
You may have super high levels of cortisol because of things like anxiety that just doesn't stop. Constantly allowing interruptions. Drinking coffee.
(16:49):
Too much coffee is great in a reasonable amount.
It's actually recommended by my doctors for what I have. It's liver protective.
Coffee's awesome, but coffee all day is not awesome.
I used to live on morning coffee and then Diet Coke for the whole rest of the day.
How many people do that? Lots of them.
(17:09):
I mean really lots of them.
I watch people doing this now and I'm like, oh my God, have you had water? You know, I don't.
I will honestly tell you there was probably a period of time where I never ever, ever drank
water because it just, I didn't drink water unless it was liquid in the form of it was in something I was eating.
Disclaimer (17:31):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (17:32):
And otherwise I wasn't drinking water.
So, you know, there was, that.
There was, you say working till 3am I pulled all nighters.
I didn't just work till 3am, there were times where I worked till 6, 10, like, you know, sometimes
I would work all night and then I'd file something.
Once they started having electronic filing for lawyers with, with a, with, with like an anal
(17:59):
getting it right problem, it made it even worse.
When we started having electronic filing, it meant that you didn't have to have it, but used
to have to have it at the courthouse in a box in the Clerk's office by 5pm when the day it was due.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (18:18):
Once we got electronic filing, it was due by midnight electronically.
And there were times where I pulled all nighters and then continued to work through the next
day until I filed it at like 10:30, 11:00 clock at night.
Tim (18:35):
And I asked this question because for everyone listening and watching this right now, I know
this probably sounds like a lot of, a lot of you out there too, where you have high levels of
normalized stress and you hit it right the nail on the head. Normalized stress.
We think, oh, this is normal.
This is like everyday stuff, this is normal, everyday life.
(18:56):
And it's not right and, but it.
Michelle Niemeyer (18:59):
Starts to feel normal. And you, you continue to be like that and you get to a point where like
I remember I'm divorced now, but when I was married, my ex's family is in Germany and we would
go there for like three week vacations and a one week vacation was Never enough for me to calm
(19:22):
down to even a normal level of normal.
It took the two weeks just for me to get to where I felt like I was on vacation.
And then the third week I'd be like, cool, I'm having fun and I'm relaxed and I'm like, you know what I mean?
But it literally took two full weeks of vacation to even get to where I felt like a normal person relaxing on vacation.
(19:48):
And I was still working in the mornings a lot of times on those trips because I was, I was at,
in the first of those trips, a partner in a law firm back in the day when you had to go to the
Internet cafe and connect through a VPN and all that stuff.
And I would do that and I'd spend like two hours in the morning working, going through my emails,
(20:09):
just, it kind of like organizing the chaos to make sure somebody else could help me with stuff
if something had to be dealt with.
But you know, I never like that whole time I didn't really take a full vacation except sometimes
I take like three or four days, you know.
Tim (20:26):
No, I can completely relate because we all have, you know, these, these digital leashes here
and, and sometimes it's demanded that you respond back in a certain amount of period of time.
So if you recognize yourself in a state of normalized stress, you have like a wake up call and
you're like, okay, I gotta get this under control.
(20:48):
How does the program you developed?
Because everything that I like to do is what can I do today?
What is something that I can implement today?
One start in the same motion of.
So everyone we're going to contact Michelle after this. That's one.
But, but what else can we do to kind of bend time back to help regain some work life balance?
(21:14):
Because I don't believe in work life balance.
I think it's a myth. What do you think?
Michelle Niemeyer (21:19):
I, I would go, I would say a stronger word than that.
I generally say work life balance is bullshit. And I believe that.
And I believe it for two reasons.
First of all, it's just not possible.
We are one person, we're whole human beings.
And when we try to have a work life balance, it's like we're placing this false parameter on
(21:43):
ourselves where we feel like a failure if we spend too much time working or we feel like a failure
if we spend too much time not working. And we also lose.
And this is the second part of it that has a lot to do with spending time.
If you think about the old school picture. Think about it.
(22:04):
Mayberry rfd whatever old school picture of someone who's involved in their community, who's
the local doctor, the local lawyer, the local car lot owner, whatever it is, right?
The person who's connected and doing business because they're connected.
They're intertwining their personal life and their business life.
(22:28):
They're volunteering in organizations where they're meeting people, they're making friends that
they're hanging out with socially and they're doing business with.
And when you talk to your friends in your work world about things that you're interested in
in your personal world, it deepens those friendships and possibly opens the door to more connections through those people, right? And vice versa.
(22:54):
When you talk to people in your office and you say, hey, you know what I've always wanted to do?
The let's say you've always wanted to hike the Camino Francaise, and you say something to someone
at your office about that and they're like, oh my God, that's really interesting because my
uncle just got home from that.
(23:15):
You guys should talk to each other. Now.
You've made a friend of this person's uncle.
You may make a closer friend of the person at work who now becomes your ally at work, not just your co worker.
And that can help you in your career and it can help you in your personal life.
But if you drew this line and you said, I'm not going to talk about the things I'm interested
(23:37):
in at home because I don't want to be that person, right?
You're literally walling yourself into a box and you're preventing yourself from the growth
that can happen from those relationships.
Tim (23:50):
So with those relationships and the growth of those relationships, how important is that to
kind of re establishing the balance and to bending time?
Michelle Niemeyer (24:02):
Well, I think it's important in a lot of ways.
For instance, let's talk about.
I'll use that example of the Camino Francaise again and talking to somebody's uncle, right?
That uncle may give you recommendations about here's places you should stay.
Here's what kind of shoes I had that were garbage and I wouldn't recommend them, but these other
people use these other shoes that were really great.
(24:25):
Here's how much time it's really going to take.
Here's the best time a year to go, whatever that is.
That's information you would have had to find yourself, right?
You've literally just shortened your learning curve by probably 50% just by having that one
conversation versus spending time online, spending time with ChatGPT, whatever it is.
(24:47):
And you still don't then that personal experience.
You might be seeing ads for the shoe that the guy paid too much for, that were garbage, Right?
But he's told you his experience with it.
Now, you know that don't waste that extra hundred bucks.
Those shoes were actually brutal and they didn't work very well.
Other things, for instance, with the work side of it, you make friends with that person. Now you're really friends.
(25:12):
You're not just work colleagues.
And you get in a jam and you need somebody to cover for you or you need help with something, well, guess what? You've got.
If you have real friends at work, you have people you can ask.
If you don't have real friends at work, you're working till midnight.
(25:35):
So that's, that's how, that's how it ties in.
And, and it goes on beyond that.
It helps you, for instance, with kinds of professions like in law or in accounting or in consulting.
You can be really great at your job, but you hit a level where you're nobody.
If you don't originate your own business, if you spent all your time in the office in that box,
(25:59):
you're going to hit a wall and you're never going to make it beyond a certain level because
you will not be developing your own business.
Tim (26:07):
No, absolutely. And I was just taking a note here for two things, because you said something,
said a lot of things very powerfully, but when we talked about strengthening relationships in
the workplace, inside and out, and that can reduce your stress levels because as you said, if
you come into a bind, you can lean on somebody else, they can cover down.
(26:32):
It reduces your stress levels.
I never really thought about the connection about actually linking up with somebody in a network
and it reducing your research time on something. That's a great point.
Michelle Niemeyer (26:44):
I mean, just getting advice.
It can save you time, it can save you money, it can save you all kinds of things.
Another example that I use is becoming a private pilot.
I have a friend who became a pilot through a club.
A lot of people have a perspective that getting their pilot's license is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars.
(27:06):
You have to go to one of those expensive schools and then you need to get a plane or you need
to rent a plane or whatever.
There are clubs out there.
And if you just put it out there and you met somebody who could tell you, hey, there's this
club, it costs you X a month. It's not that expensive.
They have volunteers who help out with a lot of this stuff and it drives the price down and
(27:26):
it's A really cool group of people.
Look how far ahead you are with that.
And that could also be at the same time as you're learning to become a pilot now you're meeting
like minded people who are probably business owners, who are probably people who have, who could
be good business partners as well as people that you're friends with because you learned how
(27:51):
to be a pilot at the club.
Tim (27:54):
That's a great point. And so as we talk about how it's applicable to you as a person so we can reduce stress.
But if you're a leader of an organization, how can you take this principle and apply it so that
way it's better for the people who work with you?
Michelle Niemeyer (28:13):
Right? Well, one of the things you can do right away is get to know the people in your team
on more than a superficial level of I'm your boss and I'm doling out the tasks to you.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (28:26):
A lot of people do that.
Here's what has to get done.
Jim, you're going to do this part.
Mary, you're going to do this part.
Let's round back on Monday and talk about how far we got or whatever.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Right?
Michelle Niemeyer (28:39):
But have you talked to them about more human things than just work assignments?
And some people because of this idea, and this is where I get angry about the concept of work
life balance is you actually see some people who are afraid to have those conversations because
(29:00):
they don't want to intrude on somebody's personal life or feel like they're somehow being inappropriate
by talking about somebody's family with them or their kids or their.
When the fact is that that person's kids are the most important thing to them.
And when you're not talking about their kids, you're essentially denying part of their humanity.
Tim (29:21):
Now I just wrote down humans being humans and we've got to get back to that.
And that's a great point.
Michelle Niemeyer (29:29):
And whole human beings who are not just the person in the box in that 8 hour window or 10 hour
window or God forbid, 16 hour window, only talking about the work in front of them, which just
when you get there, you're making people into widgets.
And those widgets are going to come and go as they please, they're going to go work for the next highest bidder.
(29:53):
And the first opportunity when they develop real friendships, real connection, you stop having
as much turnover, you start having people want their friends to come work with you.
And I mean, who doesn't want that?
That's the highest goal of any organization is retention and recruitment.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (30:13):
Of quality People.
Tim (30:14):
What if I'm in an organization and I feel exactly how you felt when you were a lawyer, and I'm
afraid to make a change?
What do we say to those people who kind of want to make a change, but they're kind of afraid
to because they're like, you know What?
I'm like 45, 50 years old.
(30:34):
I'm too far in my career to start up another one.
What do you say to those people?
Michelle Niemeyer (30:38):
Sure. Well, first thing I'm going to say is not everybody needs to make a change.
Burnout is not about needing a change.
Burnout is about that chronic level of stress getting to you to a point where you get numbed
by it and you stop feeling the positive of what you're doing.
(31:00):
And this is where, when I said to you that I had started, I'd sort of turned around in my law practice.
By the time I left my law practice, I had planned an exit, but the exit was planned because
I was looking to do something different and better.
It wasn't because I didn't want to be a lawyer anymore.
I could go back to that.
And I was great at it.
(31:21):
I got to where I really enjoyed it again.
The best case I ever had was the last case I ever had, and I had amazing results in that case, and it was awesome. Okay, so.
And I wasn't burned out anymore.
What I like to get people to do is the first thing I have them do is a clarity exercise.
And essentially we do like a.
(31:43):
It's kind of a regressive meditation.
I have a guided meditation.
I work people through where you think about the things that light you up, the things that make you happy.
And a lot of times we need to look back in time to find that if we're burned out and we're numb,
we're not feeling lit up or happy about anything.
We're just going through the motions.
(32:04):
And we might have been doing that for years.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (32:07):
But there was probably something about your career, your organization, what you do there.
There was something that drew you to that.
And you were probably happy there for at least some part of the time you were there until you
got overworked, overstressed, which may or may not have had to do with the job at all.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (32:28):
You might feel overly stressed because of things going on at home, and then you have to work
and then you have to go home, and it's just all together, just too much.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (32:39):
So what I have people do is I have them think about, when did you feel really excited and think about that. In detail.
Think about a time when you were a kid.
When did you feel really proud of something that you'd accomplished, for instance, or really
excited because you'd learned something new, or you just felt amazing and you were so happy,
(33:03):
or you were laughing so hard you couldn't stop?
And what was that circumstance? Who was around you?
What were you doing at the time?
Were you doing something physical? Were you learning something? Were you building something?
Different people have different things that make them happy, make them feel lit up.
And if you're getting some element of that in your day to day work and recognizing that you're
(33:27):
getting it, you're really unlikely to feel burned out.
But when you do get burned out, the light goes out of those things. You stop noticing them.
So I have people intentionally focus on that and figure those things out, what is it?
And if you're not getting it anymore, because this is also something that happens, you get promoted
(33:47):
out of doing the part you like.
That happens to some people right where you start out and you have a certain aspect of your job.
You loved it, it was a lot of fun.
And now all of a sudden you're like making spreadsheets and whatever it is that's not interesting to you anymore.
So what you may want to do then, if you're in leadership, you may want to find a way to bring
(34:12):
somebody on your team who's more into spreadsheets, into helping you do the spreadsheets.
And you get your hands dirty doing something that makes you excited and work with your team,
make sure you're getting the part that lights you up.
And that, that exercise for me, and I think for a lot of people, like, that's the first step
(34:37):
to really waking up again and allowing yourself to feel those feelings that keep you fueled,
because that'll keep you alive.
That'll keep it, I call it sparks.
It's like when you feel the spark of this and the spark of that over time, like just in your
day to day, you're gonna feel good, you're not gonna feel depleted all the time.
Tim (34:58):
Yes. I love how you put that, the sparks and seeking clarity. That, that's, that's great.
And I like how you start there too, with, with this, with the program that you have and how
you've developed it and brought it all together and it.
I know, I know a lot more about it because we have talked about it on several different occasions. But it's a.
I would say for anybody listening to this, right now, we're going to put out all the links in the Descriptions.
(35:23):
So that way you can get access to her and her website and her program.
Because it's a really holistic approach.
It's your mind, your body, and your soul, from what I got from you, that's really encompassing
this program to help burnout.
And I love how you said if you feel like you're burned out, you don't need to transition your
job, you don't need to quit your job, go back to the sparks and seek clarity.
(35:48):
So I really appreciate that.
I do like to end the interviews with giving up the last word to you.
So is there anything that we hadn't talked about or hadn't discussed that you're like, you know,
I really wish that we talked about this.
Michelle Niemeyer (36:06):
Okay, I'm going to give you my ninja move thing that I teach people, which is really brilliant.
And it can be used both in a leadership context or in an individual context.
We go through an analysis, I call it a sword analysis.
So after people have gone through the work, they go through to help them with the time management
(36:27):
skills and with their clarity and with their mind, body, spirit type of stuff.
We identify three big hairy goals.
And these can be team goals.
If you're doing this at work, they could be family goals.
If you're doing it with your family, they could be personal goals.
(36:48):
And what I usually do with an individual client is I have them do a business goal, a personal
goal, and one other whatever it is that they want.
And you look at that and you first consider what are the strengths you already have?
And let's say, let's use I want to learn to be a pilot, as that I that goal.
(37:14):
Maybe you have money in the bank that you've been saving towards it.
Maybe you started taking classes and those classes could be applied toward getting your license.
Maybe you have a family member who has a plane that's going to let you partner with them in
their plane once you get your license, whatever that might be, what are the weaknesses? What are you missing? What are the gaps? Do you need to.
(37:37):
You need to get your license?
What do you have to do to get your license?
Do you need to meet people?
Do you need to find a place to go?
Do you need to save money to pay for the tuition?
Whatever it is, Then we look at opportunities and risks.
And when I talk about that, opportunities might be, for instance, if you became a pilot, you
(38:02):
could fly, you know, whenever you want, not have to wait.
You could take your family on vacations to cool places that you can't go to on a commercial flight.
You might Be able to live in a really cool neighborhood that has an airstrip, whatever that might be for you.
Risks would be, for instance, the opportunity cost of the time that you're spending doing that.
(38:24):
You're not spending doing something else, you're spending money on it.
You could be spending on other things.
You're taking time away from your family.
You look at all of that and then what I do with my clients is after they've done a really good,
thorough analysis of that, I say, okay, first thing that comes to mind, 1 to 10, how much do you want it? You would be shocked.
(38:49):
How many people tell me, oh, I don't know, five or six.
Now, if that's your big hairy goal.
And after you've done the deep dive analysis and it's only a five or six, I tell people to ditch it.
I mean, it's like at that point you kind of told yourself, this isn't something I really want.
And what ends up happening, and it's very common, is we carry around these goals like baggage.
(39:17):
You're 50 years old and since you were 30, you've wanted to lose £20.
And you've never lost the £20.
And it doesn't really matter to you that much because you know, everything else is good, whatever.
But you keep joining a gym every January, you know, that kind of thing and you keep beating
yourself up about it and you're not doing the thing right because it's not really a goal that means anything to you.
(39:44):
So that's, that's something that I see people doing a lot of is it's either a goal that their parents had for them.
A lot of people do it with I need to finish, I need to finish college or I need to finish a
master's degree or I need to get my PhD when they've got a successful business and they're,
(40:05):
they're doing great and they don't need that really.
But somebody's planted it in their head that they're not okay if they don't have that piece
of paper, for instance, and they're tilting it, windmill is not really working very hard at it.
But once in a while they take a class because they feel like they're supposed to keep taking
a class here and there, but they're not getting anywhere with it and they're not because they
(40:27):
don't really care about it.
So that's a thing that understanding what are really your goals versus what are.
Maybe they were 10 year old Tim's goal, but it's not your goal anymore or Maybe it's a goal
that somebody else had for you that you're people pleasing in a sense by continuing to try to
do it even though it may not make sense for the you of today and for your future.
(40:53):
So that's what I would tell you. Do a sword analysis.
Tim (40:58):
So everyone needs to go back and re watch this section because that is incredibly powerful what
you just shared with everybody, doing that analysis and then coming to the realization after
you do that deep dive, it's a five or six.
I was shocked when you told me that most people say oh, it's like five or six.
Michelle Niemeyer (41:19):
You know, it's usually like of three goals.
There's usually one of the goals that just falls by the wayside because it doesn't matter enough
to them and they've learned that they're just wasting their time.
Tim (41:32):
And and the other thing that you said was somebody may have implanted a goal in your own mind
that you really don't want and you kind of didn't know that because you were people pleasing.
And and so I know somebody out there probably needs to go back and re listen to this because
I know that applies to a lot of different people.
So Michelle, I really appreciate you being here and sharing everything that you shared with today.
(41:57):
Please go down the descriptions, get her information and reach out to her because you're going
to be better off for it tomorrow from reaching out to her.
So Michelle, thank you for stopping by.
Michelle Niemeyer (42:08):
And being on the show.
Tim Staton (42:09):
As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this
topic if you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit
all the bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode you'll be alerted.
(42:32):
Please go ahead and do all that before you go.
Tim (42:34):
If you got some value out of.
Tim Staton (42:35):
This episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help spread the show to other people
who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about here today, but may not have found our show yet.
Again, thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Staton, stating the obvious.
Tim (42:48):
Sam.
This is Tim Staton with Tim stating the obvious.
What is this podcast about?
Tim (00:07):
It's simple. You are entitled to great leadership.
Tim Staton (00:10):
Everywhere you go, whether it's to church.
Tim (00:13):
Whether it's to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them.
Tim Staton (00:22):
Into everyday, relatable and usable advice.
Disclaimer (00:25):
And a quick disclaimer. This show, process or service by trademark, trademark, manufacturer,
otherwise does not necessarily constitute an apply the endorsement of anyone that I employed
by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show, are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of any employer.
Tim (00:36):
Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
What if you could bend time, not just get more done, but heal your body, reclaim your energy,
and rediscover joy in your work?
In this episode, we dive into ways stress makes us sick and how to master your health.
Doing stress management and lifestyle shifts that can help reverse chronic health conditions.
(00:58):
From learning small mindset shifts, creating strong relationships and a holistic approach to
work and life can shrink years of struggle and to moments of clarity and success.
And I'm really excited to introduce our guest today, Michelle Niemeyer, who is a subject matter
expert on the art of bending time.
(01:19):
So, Michelle, welcome to the show.
Michelle Niemeyer (01:21):
Hi Tim, thank you so much.
And thank you for the introduction.
Tim (01:26):
In your own words, why don't you.
Tim Staton (01:28):
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Tim (01:29):
And your background and how we came to where we are today.
Michelle Niemeyer (01:33):
Sure. So I was a lawyer for 33 years.
And if you know lawyers, you know that it can be a very highly stressful profession.
It can be an all consuming profession.
It can be one where you don't see results for a really, really, really long time from the time
(01:54):
you actually do the work, which can make it a little hard.
And about 20 years into that time frame, I got very, very burned out.
And when I say burned out, I mean I'd show up at work, go through the motions.
Resented, really being a lawyer. Resented.
(02:16):
My clients questioned why I was there, didn't really want to continue, but didn't know where
to go if I were to leave.
And ultimately I had a couple changes that happened during that time frame, but the biggest
of which, and the big sort of everybody has their big wake up call, right.
(02:38):
I thought I was doing better. I was, I.
I had started trying to make a point of looking for what I enjoyed in the work and doing more of that.
I had been really working with some people I liked a lot.
I'd had some good results.
Things were feeling a lot better than they had been.
And then one day I went to bed and as I'm lying there on my back, I had this excruciating pain
(03:05):
that was like on my right side, kind of if you put your hand on your, above your hip, right
there on my side, I felt just this horrible pain.
And I stood up and I walked around a little.
And when I stood up and walked around, I felt fine.
And then I'd lie down and I'd be in pain and then I'd stand up and I'd feel fine.
It was the weirdest thing ever.
(03:27):
And that first night I went to sleep at about 1:30.
I'd probably gone to bed at about 10.
And I just kept, you know, couldn't sleep.
The next day, the same thing happened.
I was fine during the day.
I'd get up, I'd walk around, I'd sit.
It was all when I was horizontal on my back that I had this horrible pain.
(03:48):
And the second day, I was literally lying there in bed looking at my phone, looking things up
on WebMD and things on Google, describing, you know, symptom checkers, looking for what's going on with me.
And it looked a lot like I might have a appendicitis.
And all I could think was, I have a very high pain tolerance threshold.
(04:12):
I've had doctors shocked at things I've tolerated and then gone into the doctor and they've
been like, how did you not come to us sooner?
So I was like, I'm going to be that person who dies of sepsis because their appendix blew up, right?
And so I ended up that time I decided to get out of bed at three in the morning.
(04:33):
And I went to the hospital.
And at the emergency room, they did all kinds of things.
You know, they, they did a, they did blood testing first, then they did an ultrasound and they thought I had gallstones.
They thought it was one of two things.
They thought it was either something related to my thoracic spine because I'd been, I'd started
(04:54):
running again and my back was bothering me or gallstones. So I stopped running.
Of course, I didn't go to the doctor about gallstones.
I was like, oh, no, I can handle that with nutrition.
I'll just eat better and whatever.
And so I didn't go to the doctor.
I did all the things I knew to eat less, exercise more.
(05:18):
You know, for about a month I just did that and lost about five pounds.
And then I started doing beach body workouts.
I mean, you may know, like P90X, those kind of things.
And I signed up as a coach to get the discount, which was a very pivotal thing for me in my life.
Because as a lawyer, you don't get access to personal development, really.
(05:41):
At least then law firms didn't, you know, they weren't paying attention to any of that.
There was no such thing as personal development for lawyers.
And most of us weren't even aware of it.
All of a sudden, I am, I'm given access to Brendon Burchard and Rachel Hollis and all these
people who would speak at our conferences.
And we had access to Success magazine and, you know, LE Brown, all these people.
(06:06):
And I start learning about that.
And so about a year into this, it's great.
I'm getting access to personal development. I'm feeling good.
I'm in literally the best shape I'd been in since probably my junior year in high school.
And I one day go to the doctor for a uti, and instead of giving me an antibiotic, he did give me an antibiotic.
(06:32):
But he says, you know, you haven't really had any blood testing in a while.
Why don't we do just run a typical panel?
And he runs this comprehensive metabolic panel with the liver stuff and discovers that the liver
enzymes that were elevated that made them think in the hospital I had gallstones were twice
as high as they had been a year before.
(06:56):
So this is now obviously really scary stuff.
And he's looking at it going, this can't be gallstones.
You're not having pain from gallstones.
I don't know enough about this.
You need to get to see a specialist.
And I did, and they diagnosed me with an autoimmune disease called primary biliary cholangitis,
which is, if you look it up, ppc. It's very scary.
(07:16):
And, you know, note to self, don't ever go on to Google and look for things first, because it's just truly frightening.
To this day, if you look at the Mayo Clinic description of this disease, it said, it basically
says you, you know, it's not.
It's treatable, but it's not curable.
And it's likely that you'll need a liver transplant kind of stuff. It's very scary.
(07:39):
And I saw a doctor.
That doctor wanted me to get a biopsy. I refused.
I had done a bunch of research.
Europe was not doing biopsies anymore.
It wasn't part of the standard of care there because there's a kind of ultrasound that can replace that.
And my attitude was, I'm not going to have you stick a needle in me and take part of my liver
(08:00):
out if you can do an image, you know.
And he told me they didn't have that.
And I said, well, what would you use it for?
Would it make a difference in my treatment?
He said, no, but it'll help us stage the disease.
And I said, well, is the treatment different with a different stage? He says, no.
And I said, then I'm not going to get the biopsy. What's the point?
(08:22):
And at that point, he fired me as his patient because he said I didn't comply with him.
And if I wasn't going to do what he said he didn't want me as a patient.
I was like, great, thank you.
And he referred me to a woman who worked for him who, it turned out, was the expert in his department
on this disease, who immediately said to me, no, you don't need to have the biopsy.
(08:45):
I'm not sure why he said that to you.
Oh, and by the way, I have a research study, and we can use this machine for free for you.
I'll just sign you up for the study. So.
So I was signed up as part of a research study. I got.
I get my fibro scan, they call it, and my first score on that was 8.2.
(09:07):
What the first doctor had told me was, if the drug works for you, then and it stays in and it
stays in remission, you can basically hope that things stay the same.
The damage won't get worse, it won't get better, but it won't progress.
It'll just kind of stay the way it is, and that's okay.
Like, you know, you're in a place where that's not so bad.
(09:29):
So that was what I was told to hope for.
Meanwhile, I have a friend who's a naturopath, and I had a relative who cured pancreatic cancer with nutrition.
So I was not one who was afraid of stepping a bit outside of the medical box.
(09:49):
And so I did a pretty extreme.
I did a raw foods diet for about six months, and then I did an elimination diet where I eliminated
a lot of things that I hadn't yet eliminated, like gluten and dairy and lentils and, you know,
all these things, and over time added them back in, discovered I had a horrific gluten condition.
(10:13):
I really don't do well with gluten at all.
Later discovered 40% of the people who have PPC also have celiac disease.
So that might be a thing for me. I don't know.
I'LL never get a valid test because it's an antibody test.
So I'm not going to eat gluten to find out.
So anyway, so I did all that.
(10:37):
And this is in the context of.
Meanwhile, I've kind of, you know, I've had this terrible burnout situation with my work.
I was, you know, continuing working as a lawyer, continuing to do the hours I did, sometimes
continuing to have the level of stress I was having, but it started to feel different.
(11:01):
And over a period of time, I realized not only was it feeling different, it was actually feeling good.
Like I was starting to like my job again.
I was lighting up about things again.
And I was really, I was more clear about what I wanted.
What I realized was there were a series of things that I did, all of which helped create this
(11:27):
situation where burnout was in my past.
I had really good clarity about who I was and what I wanted.
And I'd learned to manage stress really well.
I'd learned to change my lifestyle in ways that helped me on the health front.
But I'd also, because of my exposure to the personal development, I'd made massive changes in my mindset.
(11:50):
And all of that together, I think, really created this systemic change that allowed me to eliminate burnout.
And I created a program called the Art of Bending Time to help people eliminate burnout.
And that doesn't maybe make sense at first, but the reason it makes sense is that I realized,
(12:15):
looking back when I was trying to figure out the person I was at the time when I was probably
becoming burned out and didn't know it yet, what was I doing then?
What was I looking at as a problem?
What did I think I needed?
And what I thought I needed was help with time management.
So what the Art of Bending Time does is it does help you with time management, but it helps
(12:40):
you through all these other things in a way that bulletproofs you against burnout and creates
a situation where then you can create really solid goals and you can find a way to build a team
and plan your growth and work toward those goals in a way that just revs everything up and makes it happen fast.
Tim (13:00):
So there's a lot to unpack there.
What would you say your direct correlation to your job and, you know, your, your type A personality
of, of going after getting it burning the midnight oil to like 3am and the impact on your health and burnout?
I, as we talked earlier, I'm hearing the same thing from a lot of people, like, hey, I'm worked,
(13:25):
I'm stressed, and I got Sick, and then everybody's shocked.
So what is that correlation that you see?
Michelle Niemeyer (13:32):
Yeah, well, and I think it's a lot of things.
It's a ton of things.
Because you think about, first of all, autoimmunity is not a guarantee you have a genetic predisposition to an autoimmune condition.
Like you could have a genetic predisposition to having heart problems or to having various other things.
Speaker 5 (13:57):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (13:58):
However, that genetic predisposition doesn't mean you'll get the thing, and it doesn't mean you'll get.
There are a lot of different kinds of autoimmune conditions.
And what happens to a lot of people is they may get multiple ones.
There are a lot of people who have three or four different kinds of autoimmune diagnoses where
(14:22):
really at the base of it, your body is fighting itself because your body has had this kind of
poor management over time, in my opinion.
I'm not a doctor, but I've read a lot.
And the part I didn't tell you is that 8.2 initial fibroscan is now down under six, which is stage zero.
(14:48):
I went from stage two to stage zero over about eight years.
So, you know, in a, in a condition that I was told would not improve, I would be lucky if I stopped it. So, you know, that's.
It is possible to actually change these things and not just stop them.
(15:09):
There's now we know through epigenetics that you can actually turn off the genes that turn on
various kinds of conditions that can be problematic for you.
So they now know that you, you literally can turn off these genes and you won't have the thing and you.
Tim (15:27):
Can turn them off through lifestyle change, diet.
So how can you reverse that?
Michelle Niemeyer (15:34):
It's really an all encompassing thing.
And I think this is where the.
How can you reverse it?
It's really hard for me to say what I did or what constellation of things I did.
And I think it's a constellation of things.
It's a very significant overall change in how you live your life.
I used to have a very high level of chronic normalized stress.
(16:01):
I was like, I was here all the time, right?
There was this, this stress in my life, and it was.
You could feel it coming off of me.
I've seen people who I hadn't seen in a long time who were like, you're like a different person.
And it's because they knew that, Michelle.
And then I see people I knew in high school and they're like, oh, you haven't changed at all, right?
(16:27):
Because they knew Michelle before law school and before the chronic stress.
So, you know, part of it is you literally get to this place where you're normalizing a chronic level of stress.
You may have super high levels of cortisol because of things like anxiety that just doesn't stop. Constantly allowing interruptions. Drinking coffee.
(16:49):
Too much coffee is great in a reasonable amount.
It's actually recommended by my doctors for what I have. It's liver protective.
Coffee's awesome, but coffee all day is not awesome.
I used to live on morning coffee and then Diet Coke for the whole rest of the day.
How many people do that? Lots of them.
(17:09):
I mean really lots of them.
I watch people doing this now and I'm like, oh my God, have you had water? You know, I don't.
I will honestly tell you there was probably a period of time where I never ever, ever drank
water because it just, I didn't drink water unless it was liquid in the form of it was in something I was eating.
Disclaimer (17:31):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (17:32):
And otherwise I wasn't drinking water.
So, you know, there was, that.
There was, you say working till 3am I pulled all nighters.
I didn't just work till 3am, there were times where I worked till 6, 10, like, you know, sometimes
I would work all night and then I'd file something.
Once they started having electronic filing for lawyers with, with a, with, with like an anal
(17:59):
getting it right problem, it made it even worse.
When we started having electronic filing, it meant that you didn't have to have it, but used
to have to have it at the courthouse in a box in the Clerk's office by 5pm when the day it was due.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (18:18):
Once we got electronic filing, it was due by midnight electronically.
And there were times where I pulled all nighters and then continued to work through the next
day until I filed it at like 10:30, 11:00 clock at night.
Tim (18:35):
And I asked this question because for everyone listening and watching this right now, I know
this probably sounds like a lot of, a lot of you out there too, where you have high levels of
normalized stress and you hit it right the nail on the head. Normalized stress.
We think, oh, this is normal.
This is like everyday stuff, this is normal, everyday life.
(18:56):
And it's not right and, but it.
Michelle Niemeyer (18:59):
Starts to feel normal. And you, you continue to be like that and you get to a point where like
I remember I'm divorced now, but when I was married, my ex's family is in Germany and we would
go there for like three week vacations and a one week vacation was Never enough for me to calm
(19:22):
down to even a normal level of normal.
It took the two weeks just for me to get to where I felt like I was on vacation.
And then the third week I'd be like, cool, I'm having fun and I'm relaxed and I'm like, you know what I mean?
But it literally took two full weeks of vacation to even get to where I felt like a normal person relaxing on vacation.
(19:48):
And I was still working in the mornings a lot of times on those trips because I was, I was at,
in the first of those trips, a partner in a law firm back in the day when you had to go to the
Internet cafe and connect through a VPN and all that stuff.
And I would do that and I'd spend like two hours in the morning working, going through my emails,
(20:09):
just, it kind of like organizing the chaos to make sure somebody else could help me with stuff
if something had to be dealt with.
But you know, I never like that whole time I didn't really take a full vacation except sometimes
I take like three or four days, you know.
Tim (20:26):
No, I can completely relate because we all have, you know, these, these digital leashes here
and, and sometimes it's demanded that you respond back in a certain amount of period of time.
So if you recognize yourself in a state of normalized stress, you have like a wake up call and
you're like, okay, I gotta get this under control.
(20:48):
How does the program you developed?
Because everything that I like to do is what can I do today?
What is something that I can implement today?
One start in the same motion of.
So everyone we're going to contact Michelle after this. That's one.
But, but what else can we do to kind of bend time back to help regain some work life balance?
(21:14):
Because I don't believe in work life balance.
I think it's a myth. What do you think?
Michelle Niemeyer (21:19):
I, I would go, I would say a stronger word than that.
I generally say work life balance is bullshit. And I believe that.
And I believe it for two reasons.
First of all, it's just not possible.
We are one person, we're whole human beings.
And when we try to have a work life balance, it's like we're placing this false parameter on
(21:43):
ourselves where we feel like a failure if we spend too much time working or we feel like a failure
if we spend too much time not working. And we also lose.
And this is the second part of it that has a lot to do with spending time.
If you think about the old school picture. Think about it.
(22:04):
Mayberry rfd whatever old school picture of someone who's involved in their community, who's
the local doctor, the local lawyer, the local car lot owner, whatever it is, right?
The person who's connected and doing business because they're connected.
They're intertwining their personal life and their business life.
(22:28):
They're volunteering in organizations where they're meeting people, they're making friends that
they're hanging out with socially and they're doing business with.
And when you talk to your friends in your work world about things that you're interested in
in your personal world, it deepens those friendships and possibly opens the door to more connections through those people, right? And vice versa.
(22:54):
When you talk to people in your office and you say, hey, you know what I've always wanted to do?
The let's say you've always wanted to hike the Camino Francaise, and you say something to someone
at your office about that and they're like, oh my God, that's really interesting because my
uncle just got home from that.
(23:15):
You guys should talk to each other. Now.
You've made a friend of this person's uncle.
You may make a closer friend of the person at work who now becomes your ally at work, not just your co worker.
And that can help you in your career and it can help you in your personal life.
But if you drew this line and you said, I'm not going to talk about the things I'm interested
(23:37):
in at home because I don't want to be that person, right?
You're literally walling yourself into a box and you're preventing yourself from the growth
that can happen from those relationships.
Tim (23:50):
So with those relationships and the growth of those relationships, how important is that to
kind of re establishing the balance and to bending time?
Michelle Niemeyer (24:02):
Well, I think it's important in a lot of ways.
For instance, let's talk about.
I'll use that example of the Camino Francaise again and talking to somebody's uncle, right?
That uncle may give you recommendations about here's places you should stay.
Here's what kind of shoes I had that were garbage and I wouldn't recommend them, but these other
people use these other shoes that were really great.
(24:25):
Here's how much time it's really going to take.
Here's the best time a year to go, whatever that is.
That's information you would have had to find yourself, right?
You've literally just shortened your learning curve by probably 50% just by having that one
conversation versus spending time online, spending time with ChatGPT, whatever it is.
(24:47):
And you still don't then that personal experience.
You might be seeing ads for the shoe that the guy paid too much for, that were garbage, Right?
But he's told you his experience with it.
Now, you know that don't waste that extra hundred bucks.
Those shoes were actually brutal and they didn't work very well.
Other things, for instance, with the work side of it, you make friends with that person. Now you're really friends.
(25:12):
You're not just work colleagues.
And you get in a jam and you need somebody to cover for you or you need help with something, well, guess what? You've got.
If you have real friends at work, you have people you can ask.
If you don't have real friends at work, you're working till midnight.
(25:35):
So that's, that's how, that's how it ties in.
And, and it goes on beyond that.
It helps you, for instance, with kinds of professions like in law or in accounting or in consulting.
You can be really great at your job, but you hit a level where you're nobody.
If you don't originate your own business, if you spent all your time in the office in that box,
(25:59):
you're going to hit a wall and you're never going to make it beyond a certain level because
you will not be developing your own business.
Tim (26:07):
No, absolutely. And I was just taking a note here for two things, because you said something,
said a lot of things very powerfully, but when we talked about strengthening relationships in
the workplace, inside and out, and that can reduce your stress levels because as you said, if
you come into a bind, you can lean on somebody else, they can cover down.
(26:32):
It reduces your stress levels.
I never really thought about the connection about actually linking up with somebody in a network
and it reducing your research time on something. That's a great point.
Michelle Niemeyer (26:44):
I mean, just getting advice.
It can save you time, it can save you money, it can save you all kinds of things.
Another example that I use is becoming a private pilot.
I have a friend who became a pilot through a club.
A lot of people have a perspective that getting their pilot's license is going to cost tens of thousands of dollars.
(27:06):
You have to go to one of those expensive schools and then you need to get a plane or you need
to rent a plane or whatever.
There are clubs out there.
And if you just put it out there and you met somebody who could tell you, hey, there's this
club, it costs you X a month. It's not that expensive.
They have volunteers who help out with a lot of this stuff and it drives the price down and
(27:26):
it's A really cool group of people.
Look how far ahead you are with that.
And that could also be at the same time as you're learning to become a pilot now you're meeting
like minded people who are probably business owners, who are probably people who have, who could
be good business partners as well as people that you're friends with because you learned how
(27:51):
to be a pilot at the club.
Tim (27:54):
That's a great point. And so as we talk about how it's applicable to you as a person so we can reduce stress.
But if you're a leader of an organization, how can you take this principle and apply it so that
way it's better for the people who work with you?
Michelle Niemeyer (28:13):
Right? Well, one of the things you can do right away is get to know the people in your team
on more than a superficial level of I'm your boss and I'm doling out the tasks to you.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (28:26):
A lot of people do that.
Here's what has to get done.
Jim, you're going to do this part.
Mary, you're going to do this part.
Let's round back on Monday and talk about how far we got or whatever.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Right?
Michelle Niemeyer (28:39):
But have you talked to them about more human things than just work assignments?
And some people because of this idea, and this is where I get angry about the concept of work
life balance is you actually see some people who are afraid to have those conversations because
(29:00):
they don't want to intrude on somebody's personal life or feel like they're somehow being inappropriate
by talking about somebody's family with them or their kids or their.
When the fact is that that person's kids are the most important thing to them.
And when you're not talking about their kids, you're essentially denying part of their humanity.
Tim (29:21):
Now I just wrote down humans being humans and we've got to get back to that.
And that's a great point.
Michelle Niemeyer (29:29):
And whole human beings who are not just the person in the box in that 8 hour window or 10 hour
window or God forbid, 16 hour window, only talking about the work in front of them, which just
when you get there, you're making people into widgets.
And those widgets are going to come and go as they please, they're going to go work for the next highest bidder.
(29:53):
And the first opportunity when they develop real friendships, real connection, you stop having
as much turnover, you start having people want their friends to come work with you.
And I mean, who doesn't want that?
That's the highest goal of any organization is retention and recruitment.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (30:13):
Of quality People.
Tim (30:14):
What if I'm in an organization and I feel exactly how you felt when you were a lawyer, and I'm
afraid to make a change?
What do we say to those people who kind of want to make a change, but they're kind of afraid
to because they're like, you know What?
I'm like 45, 50 years old.
(30:34):
I'm too far in my career to start up another one.
What do you say to those people?
Michelle Niemeyer (30:38):
Sure. Well, first thing I'm going to say is not everybody needs to make a change.
Burnout is not about needing a change.
Burnout is about that chronic level of stress getting to you to a point where you get numbed
by it and you stop feeling the positive of what you're doing.
(31:00):
And this is where, when I said to you that I had started, I'd sort of turned around in my law practice.
By the time I left my law practice, I had planned an exit, but the exit was planned because
I was looking to do something different and better.
It wasn't because I didn't want to be a lawyer anymore.
I could go back to that.
And I was great at it.
(31:21):
I got to where I really enjoyed it again.
The best case I ever had was the last case I ever had, and I had amazing results in that case, and it was awesome. Okay, so.
And I wasn't burned out anymore.
What I like to get people to do is the first thing I have them do is a clarity exercise.
And essentially we do like a.
(31:43):
It's kind of a regressive meditation.
I have a guided meditation.
I work people through where you think about the things that light you up, the things that make you happy.
And a lot of times we need to look back in time to find that if we're burned out and we're numb,
we're not feeling lit up or happy about anything.
We're just going through the motions.
(32:04):
And we might have been doing that for years.
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (32:07):
But there was probably something about your career, your organization, what you do there.
There was something that drew you to that.
And you were probably happy there for at least some part of the time you were there until you
got overworked, overstressed, which may or may not have had to do with the job at all.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (32:28):
You might feel overly stressed because of things going on at home, and then you have to work
and then you have to go home, and it's just all together, just too much.
Speaker 5 (32:37):
Right.
Michelle Niemeyer (32:39):
So what I have people do is I have them think about, when did you feel really excited and think about that. In detail.
Think about a time when you were a kid.
When did you feel really proud of something that you'd accomplished, for instance, or really
excited because you'd learned something new, or you just felt amazing and you were so happy,
(33:03):
or you were laughing so hard you couldn't stop?
And what was that circumstance? Who was around you?
What were you doing at the time?
Were you doing something physical? Were you learning something? Were you building something?
Different people have different things that make them happy, make them feel lit up.
And if you're getting some element of that in your day to day work and recognizing that you're
(33:27):
getting it, you're really unlikely to feel burned out.
But when you do get burned out, the light goes out of those things. You stop noticing them.
So I have people intentionally focus on that and figure those things out, what is it?
And if you're not getting it anymore, because this is also something that happens, you get promoted
(33:47):
out of doing the part you like.
That happens to some people right where you start out and you have a certain aspect of your job.
You loved it, it was a lot of fun.
And now all of a sudden you're like making spreadsheets and whatever it is that's not interesting to you anymore.
So what you may want to do then, if you're in leadership, you may want to find a way to bring
(34:12):
somebody on your team who's more into spreadsheets, into helping you do the spreadsheets.
And you get your hands dirty doing something that makes you excited and work with your team,
make sure you're getting the part that lights you up.
And that, that exercise for me, and I think for a lot of people, like, that's the first step
(34:37):
to really waking up again and allowing yourself to feel those feelings that keep you fueled,
because that'll keep you alive.
That'll keep it, I call it sparks.
It's like when you feel the spark of this and the spark of that over time, like just in your
day to day, you're gonna feel good, you're not gonna feel depleted all the time.
Tim (34:58):
Yes. I love how you put that, the sparks and seeking clarity. That, that's, that's great.
And I like how you start there too, with, with this, with the program that you have and how
you've developed it and brought it all together and it.
I know, I know a lot more about it because we have talked about it on several different occasions. But it's a.
I would say for anybody listening to this, right now, we're going to put out all the links in the Descriptions.
(35:23):
So that way you can get access to her and her website and her program.
Because it's a really holistic approach.
It's your mind, your body, and your soul, from what I got from you, that's really encompassing
this program to help burnout.
And I love how you said if you feel like you're burned out, you don't need to transition your
job, you don't need to quit your job, go back to the sparks and seek clarity.
(35:48):
So I really appreciate that.
I do like to end the interviews with giving up the last word to you.
So is there anything that we hadn't talked about or hadn't discussed that you're like, you know,
I really wish that we talked about this.
Michelle Niemeyer (36:06):
Okay, I'm going to give you my ninja move thing that I teach people, which is really brilliant.
And it can be used both in a leadership context or in an individual context.
We go through an analysis, I call it a sword analysis.
So after people have gone through the work, they go through to help them with the time management
(36:27):
skills and with their clarity and with their mind, body, spirit type of stuff.
We identify three big hairy goals.
And these can be team goals.
If you're doing this at work, they could be family goals.
If you're doing it with your family, they could be personal goals.
(36:48):
And what I usually do with an individual client is I have them do a business goal, a personal
goal, and one other whatever it is that they want.
And you look at that and you first consider what are the strengths you already have?
And let's say, let's use I want to learn to be a pilot, as that I that goal.
(37:14):
Maybe you have money in the bank that you've been saving towards it.
Maybe you started taking classes and those classes could be applied toward getting your license.
Maybe you have a family member who has a plane that's going to let you partner with them in
their plane once you get your license, whatever that might be, what are the weaknesses? What are you missing? What are the gaps? Do you need to.
(37:37):
You need to get your license?
What do you have to do to get your license?
Do you need to meet people?
Do you need to find a place to go?
Do you need to save money to pay for the tuition?
Whatever it is, Then we look at opportunities and risks.
And when I talk about that, opportunities might be, for instance, if you became a pilot, you
(38:02):
could fly, you know, whenever you want, not have to wait.
You could take your family on vacations to cool places that you can't go to on a commercial flight.
You might Be able to live in a really cool neighborhood that has an airstrip, whatever that might be for you.
Risks would be, for instance, the opportunity cost of the time that you're spending doing that.
(38:24):
You're not spending doing something else, you're spending money on it.
You could be spending on other things.
You're taking time away from your family.
You look at all of that and then what I do with my clients is after they've done a really good,
thorough analysis of that, I say, okay, first thing that comes to mind, 1 to 10, how much do you want it? You would be shocked.
(38:49):
How many people tell me, oh, I don't know, five or six.
Now, if that's your big hairy goal.
And after you've done the deep dive analysis and it's only a five or six, I tell people to ditch it.
I mean, it's like at that point you kind of told yourself, this isn't something I really want.
And what ends up happening, and it's very common, is we carry around these goals like baggage.
(39:17):
You're 50 years old and since you were 30, you've wanted to lose £20.
And you've never lost the £20.
And it doesn't really matter to you that much because you know, everything else is good, whatever.
But you keep joining a gym every January, you know, that kind of thing and you keep beating
yourself up about it and you're not doing the thing right because it's not really a goal that means anything to you.
(39:44):
So that's, that's something that I see people doing a lot of is it's either a goal that their parents had for them.
A lot of people do it with I need to finish, I need to finish college or I need to finish a
master's degree or I need to get my PhD when they've got a successful business and they're,
(40:05):
they're doing great and they don't need that really.
But somebody's planted it in their head that they're not okay if they don't have that piece
of paper, for instance, and they're tilting it, windmill is not really working very hard at it.
But once in a while they take a class because they feel like they're supposed to keep taking
a class here and there, but they're not getting anywhere with it and they're not because they
(40:27):
don't really care about it.
So that's a thing that understanding what are really your goals versus what are.
Maybe they were 10 year old Tim's goal, but it's not your goal anymore or Maybe it's a goal
that somebody else had for you that you're people pleasing in a sense by continuing to try to
do it even though it may not make sense for the you of today and for your future.
(40:53):
So that's what I would tell you. Do a sword analysis.
Tim (40:58):
So everyone needs to go back and re watch this section because that is incredibly powerful what
you just shared with everybody, doing that analysis and then coming to the realization after
you do that deep dive, it's a five or six.
I was shocked when you told me that most people say oh, it's like five or six.
Michelle Niemeyer (41:19):
You know, it's usually like of three goals.
There's usually one of the goals that just falls by the wayside because it doesn't matter enough
to them and they've learned that they're just wasting their time.
Tim (41:32):
And and the other thing that you said was somebody may have implanted a goal in your own mind
that you really don't want and you kind of didn't know that because you were people pleasing.
And and so I know somebody out there probably needs to go back and re listen to this because
I know that applies to a lot of different people.
So Michelle, I really appreciate you being here and sharing everything that you shared with today.
(41:57):
Please go down the descriptions, get her information and reach out to her because you're going
to be better off for it tomorrow from reaching out to her.
So Michelle, thank you for stopping by.
Michelle Niemeyer (42:08):
And being on the show.
Tim Staton (42:09):
As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this
topic if you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit
all the bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode you'll be alerted.
(42:32):
Please go ahead and do all that before you go.
Tim (42:34):
If you got some value out of.
Tim Staton (42:35):
This episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help spread the show to other people
who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about here today, but may not have found our show yet.
Again, thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Staton, stating the obvious.
Tim (42:48):
Sam.
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