April 4, 2025 • 35 mins
This episode features a conversation with Eric Charran, author of “Have You Ever Had a Boss That...,” discussing workplace dysfunction and strategies for thriving in challenging environments. The discussion centers around identifying common causes of dysfunction, understanding different manager archetypes, and turning negative experiences into opportunities for personal and professional growth.
Eric and I begin by exploring the root causes of workplace dysfunction, which often stem from a lack of leadership training and the inheritance of outdated management styles. Leaders may adopt unhelpful behaviors due to a lack of proper training or by mimicking ineffective approaches they’ve observed in the past. The key is to understand that leaders have different toolboxes, and they may not have the right tools or emotional intelligence for organizational leadership.
Charran categorizes different managers into unique archetypes, each with distinct behaviors and impacts on their teams.
To manage these archetypes, Eric advocates for “managing upwards” by empathizing with the manager’s motivations and challenges.
Let's dive right in!
Connect with Eric Charran:
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericcharran/
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Have-Ever-Boss-That-Dysfunctional-ebook/dp/B0DJH2YW4S/ref=sr_1_1
Connect with Tim:
Website: timstatingtheobvious.com
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/timstatingtheobvious
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfDcITKUdniO8R3RP0lvdw
Instagram: @TimStating
Tiktok: @timstatingtheobvious
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Staton (00:00):
We've all had that one boss who left us speechless, frustrated, or even questioning our sanity.
But what if instead of just surviving these dysfunctional dynamics, we could actually thrive in them?
Today, I'm joined by Eric Charran, author of have youe Ever Had a Boss?
That A powerful guide packed with real stories and actionable strategies for succeeding in even the most chaotic workplaces.
(00:22):
Eric Charran is a visionary technology executive, author and thought leader with over 25 years
of experience in transforming global enterprises through digital innovation, data driven strategy and AI driven solutions.
Known for his ability to bridge the gap between business objectives and complex technology,
Eric has spearheaded transformative initiatives at major organizations including Microsoft and
(00:46):
Capital One where he served as chief architect, bringing substantial advances in cloud resilience,
digital transformation and data infrastructure efficiency.
His strategic insights and leadership have driven high impact changes across sectors, optimizing
performance and fostering resilience in industries from finance to healthcare.
With a career shaped by commitment to measurable impact and a player coach leadership style,
(01:11):
Charran is a sought after speaker and advisor on topics of leadership, digital innovation and organizational change.
His work continues to influence leaders and organizations seeking sustainable and innovative
solutions in a rapidly evolving world.
So whether you're new to the workforce or leading a team yourself, this conversation we're about
ready to have is about turning dysfunction into your leadership edge. Let's dive right in.
(01:37):
This is Tim Staton with Tim stating the obvious.
What is this podcast about? It's simple.
You are entitled to great leadership.
Everywhere you go, whether it's to church, whether it's to work, whether it's at your house,
you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast we take leadership principles and theories and and turn.
Them into everyday, relatable and usable advice.
Disclaimer (02:00):
And a quick disclaimer. This show process or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer otherwise
does not necessarily constitute and imply the endorsement of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show, are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of any employer.
Tim Staton (02:11):
Hey Eric, welcome to the show.
Eric Charran (02:13):
Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here.
Tim Staton (02:15):
I'm glad. I'm glad we were able to make this happen. So.
So as we were just talking about, this conversation is going to be about turning dysfunction
into and to your leadership edge.
And with that I kind of want to talk about the heart of dysfunction.
And so in your view, what's the most common root cause of workplace dysfunction and why is it so persistent?
Eric Charran (02:35):
I think there's always going to be a balance in every organization between senior folks that Lead or leaders.
And these could be senior leaders or new leaders as well as people that are just individual
contributors or early in career folks, or maybe folks that are just, we used to call them pro
in place people that have been doing the same role for a long time and are super good at it.
(02:57):
And the balance is that leaders have.
Everybody's got a toolbox of things that you use, tools that you use to do your job.
Now, metaphorically, that toolbox could be, you know, your communication style, your ability
to influence without authority, your expertise, your emotional intelligence, your, you know,
everything associated with, like, how you show up to work.
(03:18):
The, the challenge is that some leaders are on, you know, everybody's on their journey, and
some of us are on a longer journey than others.
Some of us may have the right tools in the toolbox to be organizational leaders and managers,
and some of us may just be promoted, newly promoted into that position and may not have the
right tools in the toolbox.
And as a result, you kind of go on this like two week, like, okay, well, now, gosh, I'm in charge
(03:42):
of a team or teams, and maybe I'm an M2 or M3.
Now I really have to think about what people expect of me, both from a leadership perspective
as well as, like, what my teams expect of me.
How do I support them?
And in some instances, the best way and the fastest way to answer that question as a leader
is, well, what have I observed other leaders do?
(04:03):
What have I observed my other managers do?
And in many instances, sometimes they inherit some of these great tools that are useful to inspire
and lead and amplify teams.
And in some instances, as I write about my book, these are unhelpful behaviors that are either
archaic, that are maybe 30, 40 years old and out of date with how the modern workplace works,
(04:25):
or what, you know, behavioral, you know, or emotional intelligence, you know, theory teaches us.
And these unhelpful tools are kind of just rotely adopted because in many instances leaders
lead how they were led.
They think back to how, you know, their managers in the past got results.
And sometimes that represents a way of remanifesting or rehydrating all these unhelpful behaviors that I write about.
Tim Staton (04:50):
So you bring up a lot of great points in that impactful segment that you read.
And so let's talk about the difference between organizational leaders and managers real quick,
because oftentimes people don't get the necessary training to make the leap.
And sometimes if you're a really good doer, you kind of get promoted into a leadership role.
And those traits don't necessarily transition off.
(05:12):
So how does that turn into a dysfunction?
Just by not having the right training?
Eric Charran (05:16):
You're so right. In fact, that happened to me in my career.
I was a reluctant leader.
So early on, one of the worst things that you can do is take a good.
In my industry, you could take a good developer, a technologist, and make them a manager.
And, you know, at the onset, I was kind of jazzed up.
It's a recognition of your talent and your capability, your effectiveness and your results.
(05:37):
But then I started to figure out, oh, my gosh, now I have to deal with performance appraisals
and vacation requests and performance issues and all this kind of stuff, which sapped my energy
early on in my career.
And so I realized that I was, you know, I was kind of like, embodied.
What you just brought, that point you just brought up is like, some of the worst things you
can do is to take a really good person and individual contributor, make them a manager.
(06:01):
And so I spent the next 10 years as a, you know, 10 to 15 years as a.
As a willful individual contributor, and only when my management chain tackled me and said,
hey, I need you to start looking after people.
And I said, well, hey, I love leading, but I don't know if I love managing.
It turns out that I did have a passion for it.
It just took me a good 10 to 15 years to find that passion.
(06:24):
But I definitely believe that there is a distinct difference between leaders and managers.
Sometimes a manager isn't a leader, and they have to kind of be educated in that way sometimes.
Lots of organizations, including the ones I've been a part of, focus leadership training and
management training on the top, you know, the most senior elements of the organization, when
(06:46):
really a lot of that energy should be leveled at new leaders and new managers so that they do
get the right tools in the toolbox.
Because ultimately what will happen is when I was, you know, got my first leadership position,
I looked at what my manager did, and I'm like, okay, this is what's expected of me.
This is, you know, my manager's obviously been here for some time.
The way in which he's led me makes me believe that this is how the organization wants me to
(07:11):
inspire, lead, get results for my team, and I'm going to actually do those things.
And so my perspective is we should constantly be investing in new leaders, in young leaders
that are early in career to give them the foundation so that these unhelpful behaviors maybe hopefully never even manifest.
Tim Staton (07:32):
That's a great point, completely agree with you on that.
And you talked about managers.
So you categorize different managers into unique archetypes.
So which archetypes do you think cause the most long term damage and which one is the most misunderstood?
Eric Charran (07:49):
Gosh, that's a great, great question.
It's kind of like almost asking me to choose, you know, choose your favorite kid, right?
I think the ones that are, that have the greatest propensity for disruption, for damage really
depends on the individual that's being subject to those behaviors.
So we're all, we're all significantly different unique individuals.
(08:09):
So if you ask me, I'm going to have a more unique perspective than somebody else.
So for me, I really like preparation.
I like being able to show up to a high stakes C level meeting and with confidence and with preparation
and data backed information, really just cruise through that meeting and deliver a solid message.
(08:30):
The steps in order to achieve that might start a month before that individual session.
So I really like being prepared.
I really like making sure that everybody knows their part and you know, people are going to,
you know, just support you in the right way.
The attack sub manager I write about as an archetype really is a foil to somebody like me because
(08:53):
the attack sub manager will run like, just like the, the name says.
If you're, you get the, the analogy.
It's like they're like a submarine, they run deep below the waters.
Slack messages, emails, phone calls just bounce right off of them because they're, they're,
they're so busy or they're, they, or it's either that they're super busy or they have an inability
(09:16):
to triage and prioritize and process and you know, that kind of thing.
And so maybe you'll be at an airport about to travel for business.
The attack sub manager emerges from beneath the waters, launches a bunch of missiles.
Hey, we've got a presentation that's due tomorrow.
It's with your, it's with the C suite.
We, they're going to want to get an Update on all 10 of our projects, make sure that you put
(09:37):
together a slide deck that covers them and also anticipates their questions and you know, makes
us, makes us look good.
Don't make it, don't goof up.
And then so right as you're about to get on the flight, you get this, you know, the slack message
or you know, email and you're like, wait, who's going to be there?
How long do we have?
What, what time is it?
How much, how much time can we prepare?
(09:58):
Is it Just me or should.
Should I write this for you?
Like, all these details to make the presentation more impactful, but by that time, they've already
submerged again and they've gone beneath the waves.
And you'll never hear from them again until right before the meeting when they do what I call the swoop and poop.
So they will, you know, in the hallway, like, this has happened to me outside of the meeting before.
We're about to go in.
(10:19):
Let me see the slides real quick, Eric.
And they go, gosh, this is not anything like what I had anticipated or imagined. Well, too late now.
Let's just go ahead in.
So for me, that is one of the most disruptive, challenging aspects to deal with.
Tim Staton (10:33):
So which one do you think is the most misunderstood out of all of them, though?
Eric Charran (10:37):
The one that I have a lot of sympathy for is the amnesiac, and probably because I see a little
bit of myself in this at times.
So the amnesiac as a manager, that.
And I write about this in the book, like as an example, you go to a meeting and you have this
really well prepared justification for, you know, convincing a senior leader of a particular
(11:03):
point or a course of action.
And then in that meeting, for some reason, your manager, who's supposed to amplify already debriefed
on your results and what the message is, kind of just asks these questions in which you wonder
how it's possible that they don't know these things they didn't know, despite you preparing them.
(11:25):
They seem to have no memory of this slide that you're presenting, no memory of the message,
no memory of what you're trying to convince them for, no understanding of the value of it, no
real understanding of what it is that you're there to convince.
And so in many instances, sometimes the amnesiac manager who seems to have forgotten everything
may actually turn into your first adversary in that meeting in which they ask questions like,
(11:50):
why are we doing this? Who greenlit this project? What's the value here?
Are we sure that this is the right thing to do?
And it's just turn into this undermining your deconstruction of everything that you're there
to convince senior leadership of.
And in many instances, when I encountered this for the first time, these unhelpful behaviors,
(12:10):
why I use the term archetypes, is because they reoccur across many different managers throughout many people's careers.
The first time I encountered this, I was shocked and horrified.
I went from anger to disbelief to, even if you disagreed with me, how can you cut across me
in the meeting and just completely disrupt.
(12:31):
But the reason why I think that they're understood or why I understand them is because these
leaders are under immense pressure.
The pressure that these senior leaders tend to be under includes delivering results, you know,
providing visibility, understanding and forecasting when things are going to happen, dealing
with people that require time on their calendar to get their input on things.
(12:54):
And so what I talk about in the book is that these are leaders that are under such intense pressure
that when they're making decisions, they are not committing those decisions to long term memory.
I talk about it in order of like RAM and rom, which RAM is like, you know, temporary memory, working memory.
It's high performance memory in a computer.
But eventually when you turn your computer off, everything leaves ram and if you didn't store
(13:19):
it into rom, which is your disk, it's never going to be recalled again. And so the.
I talk about some coping mechanisms as to how you can actually work with your manager, manage
upwards and get them to kind of overcome some of these challenges that they have.
Tim Staton (13:35):
That's a great analogy when it comes to the amnesiac.
And I've ran into a lot of amnesiacs in my career.
The attack sub, not so much.
So what do you think turns people into the attack sub manager?
Like what do you think happens that they adopt this Persona or this archetype?
Eric Charran (13:53):
It's a great question in the book, I kind of theorize, but I hate to prescribe, you know, every individual is different.
So it might be difficult to kind of prescribe how this, this unhelpful behavior manifests because
this is one of the ones.
Like I said, you know, managers manage how they were managed.
The attacks of archetype isn't necessarily one that, you know, nobody says, well, hey, my manager
(14:16):
never replied to email, so I'm not going to do it either. Right.
So it's an interesting outlier, but I think it has something to do with just the inability to prioritize. These people are.
And it's not because, I mean it might be because they just don't have a prioritization muscle.
But in many instances they do have the prioritization skill.
There's just the volume is so immense and so intense and so rapid fire that they just don't
(14:41):
have time to catch up.
And as a result, the cause for this could be multimodal or multifactor or multifaceted.
Maybe that's a better term.
The causes might be that they are taking on too much.
They might say that, you know what, I'm the only one that can make this choice or these decisions
or deliver this with quality.
And as a result, I'm going to take it on rather than delegate it.
(15:03):
They might just be in a situation where the workload, they're managing too many teams, their
scope is too big and they need some additional help.
It might also be that the organization, they signed up for additional responsibilities or stretch
goals to prove that they're ready for the next level of leadership, and it's just too much for them.
(15:24):
So it could be any number of those or maybe a combination of many or all of those things that
kind of exacerbate this behavior.
But ultimately it's important to, in all of these archetypes, to kind of work with and manage upwards.
Because these behaviors really persist in silence when nobody says anything and people just
think that they have to kind of put up with it.
That's really where these behaviors will persist and that leader will take these unhelpful tools
(15:50):
to their next team and their next team and their next team.
Tim Staton (15:53):
Yeah. And nobody wants to suffer in silence.
And I don't want to anymore either.
And so I think you make a great point when you talk about managing upwards.
And with every dysfunction, it always leads to, like, some type of function, some way.
There's always a function in the dysfunction.
You talk about turning dysfunction into personal growth.
(16:15):
So what's one story from your own career where you did exactly that and what changed for you?
Eric Charran (16:20):
One of the things that I felt a success story, and I actually use this as an example in the
book, was there was a manager archetype, which I call the lifo, which stands.
It stands for last in first out in accounting parlance. Right.
And this archetype really is focused on the last thing that I've been asked to do. I will do it.
(16:43):
And this is now the most important thing that my teams and their teams has to do.
Everybody needs to stop doing everything else because the chief data officer or chief financial
officer asked us to focus on this new thing.
The challenge with this is that this oftentimes happens in business, right. Or in organizations.
(17:05):
Sometimes you have to put the hold on an existing project and you actually then have to focus
on the new thing because there's some regulatory compliance or operational inefficiencies that
are, that become super important, the organization's losing money, whatever it might be.
However, if this happens again and again and again, the teams will eventually develop whiplash
(17:28):
in which not only do they become dissatisfied because they can't seem to finish anything, but
they are reticent to pour their hearts and souls and energy into completing a job, because they
know with dread that in the next week or two, there's going to be a new emergency that is going
to take them off their existing work.
(17:49):
And this can have several damaging impacts and dysfunctions because the team is now no longer productive.
The team's throughput had been throttled by their own dread of when they're going to be asked
to switch tasks at the end of the year.
The question becomes, well, what did they actually deliver?
And the answer is very little.
Because you kept switching tasks to do the new thing and if you'd never finish something, then
(18:15):
it looks like you just haven't done anything to somebody high up enough in the organization.
So this is the biggest element of dysfunction.
And the question becomes, well, what do you do in order to kind of help mitigate this?
Well, I think the first thing is to understand, get the leader to understand, hey, you know what?
We didn't finish some of our commitments to the organization.
(18:35):
Which means at the end of the year, when you and me and everybody else under us are asked, how
did we do associated with helping the organization do xyz, we're not going to be able to say
that we did that because we keep switching tasks.
And in some instances it's also equipping them with the, I guess I'll call it verbal skill or
(19:00):
verbal tools to kind of just say, hey, you might need to push back in the meeting where you're
getting a new assignment saying, I understand this is super important and if I, if I'm reading
you right, these are the reasons why you're asking us to focus on this.
Here's what doesn't get done if we focus on this thing right now.
So it's not like you're saying, no, you're saying, hey, maybe not right now because this was
(19:23):
the other thing that we're working on.
Happy to reprioritize, but I feel like we need to get this done.
So having an opinion and letting people know that there's costs associated with not doing the
immediate, not immediately, task switching is super important.
And giving your manager the ability to say those things in the sessions and then supporting
(19:44):
them in that session is the best way that I found to kind of help kickstart that behavior extinction.
Tim Staton (19:52):
That's great that you have that framework there for people to be able to kind of help lead up on that.
I believe it happens more often than people probably want to admit.
And it's a horrible feeling towards the end of the year, if you're on a team like that.
And you're like, well, what did I really accomplish?
Eric Charran (20:07):
Right, right. And in many instances, it has real economic impact because you're rated on what
results you delivered and how good a job you did and that kind of stuff.
And so, you know, if you don't have concrete results, then you're, you're falling prey to what
many organizations tend to reward, which is busyness versus outcomes.
Many organizations love, you know, love.
(20:29):
You know, managers talk about how busy their teams are, but ultimately, you're not really delivering
value, and that can be more dangerous as an area of exposure.
Tim Staton (20:38):
No, absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier that you kind of empathized with one of
these archetypes over the other, and that was the amnesiac.
But you also emphasized empathy and emotional intelligence in your book.
So why do you think these are such underrated leadership tools, especially in toxic environments?
Eric Charran (20:56):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And in fact, you're right.
I underscore it in every single one of the archetypes that I write about, and even ones in which
I haven't, you know, which didn't make the cut in the book.
The key here is when you first encounter these behaviors, you think that it's being done to you.
There's something about you as a professional that, or a person that is insufficient.
(21:22):
And as a result, you are now being subjected to these undesirable or unhelpful behaviors because you know what?
This person is not the best.
Or maybe I'm not the best, and I have to figure out why the person is acting this way.
The, the, the key thing to realize here is that I, I think there's a saying that I like to quote.
(21:43):
I don't even know where it came from. I'm. But I, I, I.
So I can't give it proper attribution.
But it's, it's Q tip, which is quit taking it personal.
It's not necessarily in many, in most cases, I'll say it's not.
Has nothing to do with you.
It's just the tool that they have.
And as a result, you have to realize that even though it feels like this behavior is being directed at you, it's not.
(22:05):
So that's the first thing.
But then the second thing is once you realize that once you encounter these behaviors, or potentially
you read the book and you're like, oh, I recognize this behavior, the question becomes like,
gosh, I really hate this behavior.
And then you kind of tie the behavior to the person because the behavior is being exhibited
by the person, and then potentially you're like, gosh, there's nothing I can do. And then you.
You potentially go into, like, this jaded downward spiral in which you hate your job.
(22:29):
The key to escaping that or to avoiding that altogether is to empathize with the person that's exhibiting the behavior.
I'm sure if you asked them and they knew the impact of the behavior, they'd be like, gosh, I.
I don't want that to happen.
I don't want to act that way.
If I knew that my behavior was demoralizing my team or demoralizing you, I wouldn't do that.
But I don't know what else to do.
(22:50):
So the key is to really understanding their motivation, why they're behaving that way and why
that and what their emotional context is.
And then doing so kind of separates you a little bit from the behavior itself and how it's affecting you.
And it gives you the power to kind of think about, well, if I look at this behavior, how can I help?
What steps can I take? What's in my.
(23:11):
What's within my sphere of influence or control that I can use to kind of just nudge this person onto the right track.
And that's kind of what I think emotional intelligence and empathy and understanding is the attack sub manager. In my case.
I had to realize that this person just didn't have the tools to manage their workload successfully.
(23:33):
And it was up to me to let them know, number one, how it impacts me and other team members.
Number two, what can I do for you to make this easier? Here's how.
I can either communicate with you differently, and I write about, like, how to address it from
context, switching on channels, communication channels, to really helping them grow in the book.
(23:54):
But understanding is the key to making sure that you don't dive into this negative spiral and take it personal.
Because again, you're going to see these behaviors in your career again and again and again.
Tim Staton (24:06):
Yeah, I think one of the hardest things to learn personally from is not taking it personal.
Like, things that happen aren't directed towards you personally.
It's an attribute or byproduct of the person that is leading the team and their own abilities.
So you talked about two principles and strategies that you talked in the book about talking
it out and writing it down.
(24:27):
What advice do you have for someone who tries your strategies, but they face a little bit of resistance from their bosses?
Eric Charran (24:32):
Oh, great one. So I think ultimately what people have to do is to try, keep trying your best. The. The reason.
And that might Sound that might sound very platonic, right?
But the idea here is that the.
None of the, none of, not one solution is going to work for every manager because underneath
(24:54):
the behaviors is an actual real person that might be struggling, might have personal professional
challenges and deficiencies, and they're on their own journey.
And so the key is to try to find a way in which if one avenue of advice doesn't work, that you
try to kind of re pivot and then find another avenue that's very similar, but it achieves the same results.
(25:15):
The key, I would say, is get the manager to a position or get the leader into a position where
they're willing to hear you and they're willing to accept what you are recommending.
A lot of times I tell my team that being right is only 50% of the battle.
The other 50% is trying to make sure that that person that you're trying to convince is willing to hear you.
(25:36):
And this goes for sales techniques.
And I think we've all been angry soul to you heard the angry seller.
The more you try to position data and to say, hey, obviously there's a, there's a sane choice here.
It's clear anybody with any intelligence would make this logical choice.
What we have to realize is that people typically don't make logical choices.
(25:58):
They make emotional ones and then they seek reason to back it up.
And if you are telling somebody something different, it has nothing to do with the fact that
your data is better than theirs, has everything to do with the fact that that person has emotionally bound to that decision.
And that if you try to overwhelm or overcome that decision with logic and reason and they are
not willing to listen, depart from that emotional binding, then it's going to bounce off them.
(26:23):
So you have to utilize techniques such as emotional intelligence and empathy to say, gosh, this,
your workload must be intense.
I can't imagine what it's like to have so many emails and slack messages to respond to.
What can I do to make it easier?
And for example, hey, you know what, it sounds like you and I could have an opportunity to develop
(26:44):
a better communication pattern so that I don't contribute to your overload.
What's the best way to do that? How would you.
And here are my suggestions and here's what this does for you because people always remember
what you've done for them.
And I think as any any employee on a team, your job is to try to make your manager's life easier and less stressful.
(27:05):
And that is typically more openly appreciated by your Manager.
Tim Staton (27:10):
No, absolutely. Great, great points on that one.
Let's, let's take a shift for a second.
We talked about the manager and now let's talk about if.
Let's say you're going into a tough meeting with difficult bosses.
What's one mindset or shift or strategy from your book that they can apply right now, today, going into that meeting?
Eric Charran (27:32):
There's lots of techniques going into a meeting.
I would say that there are books and books written about techniques around emotional intelligence,
active listening, mirroring, restating so that that person believes that you understand what they're saying.
All of those things are necessary ingredients.
(27:53):
In fact, early on in my career, funny story is I had a great manager who amplified, I stood on his shoulders.
This individual was really instrumental in teaching me what leadership was all about and provided
me some great career opportunities.
And so, you know, early on in my career as a technologist, I valued knowing things to the point
(28:15):
where I would be able to walk into a room and be the most effusive and most intelligent person
in that room about whatever topic it was I was presenting on.
But as I got into the field and started working with, you know, Microsoft customers, for example,
these folks were more senior in their careers, you know, at the time, maybe like 20 years older than me.
(28:35):
And the one thing they didn't really value is some, you know, early in career person coming
in and just spitting up a bunch of data and recommendations and the right things to do because
they felt like I didn't listen to them, that I was not investing in their particular challenges
and I didn't really understand their problems and what their goals were as a result.
And so these individuals would say, sounds like you're bringing your a talent, but this person really doesn't get me.
(29:00):
And so as a result, even if I'm telling them, hey, you are about to walk off a cliff, I've seen
other customers do it or other people do it, you're headed there. They wouldn't listen.
So my manager at the time said, eric, I want you to sit on your hands in this meeting.
And so I physically sat on my hands, not kidding.
And every time that I really wanted to just spout out what the right answer was, I kind of just
(29:21):
said I asked the question instead.
And this technique really helped out quite a bit, you know, so it became more along the lines
of saying things like, hey, if I was behind your desk, this is how I would feel about this scenario.
It's got to be kind of challenging.
And I've seen this before and I'VE dealt with this before and so I know kind of exactly what you're going through.
And what I think is you feel this way about this particular problem and if you had a magic wand,
(29:46):
this is what you would have happen. Is that right?
And so asking that follow up question like, is that right?
Gets you to that level of understanding where they opening up, they're willing, they're more
willing to listen to you.
So I think that's the number one thing that I would recommend is practice, emotional intelligence
practice, you know, active listening, practice, question asking practice, mirroring the person
(30:10):
as well, like you know, from a physical, you know, body language standpoint just to get to the
point where they are open to hearing some of your suggestions.
And this is with a manager or you know, from to a C suite board, you know, that you're meeting with.
Tim Staton (30:24):
I love those strategies. Those are great strategies that you can implement today.
And you seem like a very reflective type person.
So while you were writing this book, how has that changed the way that you lead others?
Eric Charran (30:38):
Oh, so what was interesting is the way this book came about is a bunch of vice presidents.
We were all kind of just talking together and we were talking about some of these behaviors
and how we've seen them before and we were kind of guessing what the person did and they were
like, that's amazing that you've seen that before.
And now you're giving me advice. This is amazing.
(30:59):
And so we kind of started giving the behaviors funny names.
And then somebody said, hey, you know, maybe one of you should write this down.
And I said, I'll write it down.
So as I was writing the book, every author says this, right?
But I actually mean it.
Not that they don't, but the book kind of wrote itself.
But what was funny is while I was writing it, I'm like, oh my goodness, I've probably done this
(31:22):
because I've had leaders that have done this to me and now I'm doing it to my, my team.
So that that level of self awareness, you know, and a lot of times you can read this book through two lenses.
The first is as a person that has a leader or manager.
And then you can read it as a leader or manager that has people. And it's.
(31:44):
I found myself going back and forth between those two Personas as I was writing the book.
And I realized that self awareness is critical as a leader. Being able to just.
And some people have it and some people don't.
Some people have to develop it.
For those folks that have to develop it, the one technique that I used early on in my career
was if I was on the receiving end of what I'm typing, what I'm saying, what I'm slacking, what
(32:09):
I'm texting, how would this person receive that?
Would they receive it as kind of like a brusque message?
Would they receive it as directive?
Would they receive it as helpful?
Just beginning to exercise that portion of your consciousness to say, like, how do people receive what I'm saying?
And if you don't have any information on that, ask certainly, you know, say, hey, what's, what's
(32:31):
helpful that I do and what's helpful that I don't? Servant leadership and humility.
Leading with humility are things that I ascribe to. Absolutely.
And so that's, that helps keep me grounded and keeps me self aware.
But I began to realize that I myself am probably doing some of these things today.
Tim Staton (32:47):
I think self awareness is critically important.
And as we grow as leaders and as we write books and stuff, it has a change.
And so I'm glad to hear the way that it kind of reinforced things for you.
So I always like to give everybody the last word on the show.
So is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to talk about or something that
you're like, you know, I just need say this as my last word.
Eric Charran (33:10):
I would say the one thing.
Maybe, maybe we chatted about it a little bit, but it was like one of the things I think that's
important for everybody to realize is that you should know your worth.
One of the things that Microsoft CEO, I had a great opportunity to spend some time with him
in my leadership journey at Microsoft.
And he told me that, hey, leadership is the number one thing that attracts people.
(33:35):
But also you have to really understand that people don't quit teams, they don't quit organizations, they quit managers.
And that to me is a realization.
It's a cautionary tale for leaders that are looking to attract and maintain talent.
But it also helps you as an individual person that's working for a leader that might have a
collection of unhelpful behaviors and that you try to apply some of the techniques in the book
(33:58):
that I wrote about and others have written about, and it's just not working.
You have to know your worth enough to be able to say, you know what, I'm not going to throw
any more good energy after bad.
I'm going to go find an opportunity to thrive and excel outside of this leader.
And that's really where I'm going because I know that I can go to, you know, this other organization
and thrive, or this other team and thrive, or this other leader and thrive.
(34:21):
So the key is make sure that you're not running from a burning building, but you're running
to something that's going to provide you with additional opportunity and growth.
Tim Staton (34:29):
Well, Eric, I really appreciate those those final thoughts.
And for everybody listening to this right now, if you want to get a copy of have you ever had
a boss that it's going to be in the descriptions below and I'm going to post all of his information
in the descriptions of this episode.
So that way you can go down there and you can check them all out and go to them and see them for yourself.
So, Eric, I really appreciate you being on the show.
Eric Charran (34:51):
Thanks for having me. This is a great chat as always.
Tim Staton (34:54):
Thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode you'll
(35:15):
be alerted, please go ahead and do.
All that before you go.
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
here today, but may not have found our show yet.
Again, thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Staton Dayton. The obvious.
We've all had that one boss who left us speechless, frustrated, or even questioning our sanity.
But what if instead of just surviving these dysfunctional dynamics, we could actually thrive in them?
Today, I'm joined by Eric Charran, author of have youe Ever Had a Boss?
That A powerful guide packed with real stories and actionable strategies for succeeding in even the most chaotic workplaces.
(00:22):
Eric Charran is a visionary technology executive, author and thought leader with over 25 years
of experience in transforming global enterprises through digital innovation, data driven strategy and AI driven solutions.
Known for his ability to bridge the gap between business objectives and complex technology,
Eric has spearheaded transformative initiatives at major organizations including Microsoft and
(00:46):
Capital One where he served as chief architect, bringing substantial advances in cloud resilience,
digital transformation and data infrastructure efficiency.
His strategic insights and leadership have driven high impact changes across sectors, optimizing
performance and fostering resilience in industries from finance to healthcare.
With a career shaped by commitment to measurable impact and a player coach leadership style,
(01:11):
Charran is a sought after speaker and advisor on topics of leadership, digital innovation and organizational change.
His work continues to influence leaders and organizations seeking sustainable and innovative
solutions in a rapidly evolving world.
So whether you're new to the workforce or leading a team yourself, this conversation we're about
ready to have is about turning dysfunction into your leadership edge. Let's dive right in.
(01:37):
This is Tim Staton with Tim stating the obvious.
What is this podcast about? It's simple.
You are entitled to great leadership.
Everywhere you go, whether it's to church, whether it's to work, whether it's at your house,
you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast we take leadership principles and theories and and turn.
Them into everyday, relatable and usable advice.
Disclaimer (02:00):
And a quick disclaimer. This show process or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer otherwise
does not necessarily constitute and imply the endorsement of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show, are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of any employer.
Tim Staton (02:11):
Hey Eric, welcome to the show.
Eric Charran (02:13):
Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here.
Tim Staton (02:15):
I'm glad. I'm glad we were able to make this happen. So.
So as we were just talking about, this conversation is going to be about turning dysfunction
into and to your leadership edge.
And with that I kind of want to talk about the heart of dysfunction.
And so in your view, what's the most common root cause of workplace dysfunction and why is it so persistent?
Eric Charran (02:35):
I think there's always going to be a balance in every organization between senior folks that Lead or leaders.
And these could be senior leaders or new leaders as well as people that are just individual
contributors or early in career folks, or maybe folks that are just, we used to call them pro
in place people that have been doing the same role for a long time and are super good at it.
(02:57):
And the balance is that leaders have.
Everybody's got a toolbox of things that you use, tools that you use to do your job.
Now, metaphorically, that toolbox could be, you know, your communication style, your ability
to influence without authority, your expertise, your emotional intelligence, your, you know,
everything associated with, like, how you show up to work.
(03:18):
The, the challenge is that some leaders are on, you know, everybody's on their journey, and
some of us are on a longer journey than others.
Some of us may have the right tools in the toolbox to be organizational leaders and managers,
and some of us may just be promoted, newly promoted into that position and may not have the
right tools in the toolbox.
And as a result, you kind of go on this like two week, like, okay, well, now, gosh, I'm in charge
(03:42):
of a team or teams, and maybe I'm an M2 or M3.
Now I really have to think about what people expect of me, both from a leadership perspective
as well as, like, what my teams expect of me.
How do I support them?
And in some instances, the best way and the fastest way to answer that question as a leader
is, well, what have I observed other leaders do?
(04:03):
What have I observed my other managers do?
And in many instances, sometimes they inherit some of these great tools that are useful to inspire
and lead and amplify teams.
And in some instances, as I write about my book, these are unhelpful behaviors that are either
archaic, that are maybe 30, 40 years old and out of date with how the modern workplace works,
(04:25):
or what, you know, behavioral, you know, or emotional intelligence, you know, theory teaches us.
And these unhelpful tools are kind of just rotely adopted because in many instances leaders
lead how they were led.
They think back to how, you know, their managers in the past got results.
And sometimes that represents a way of remanifesting or rehydrating all these unhelpful behaviors that I write about.
Tim Staton (04:50):
So you bring up a lot of great points in that impactful segment that you read.
And so let's talk about the difference between organizational leaders and managers real quick,
because oftentimes people don't get the necessary training to make the leap.
And sometimes if you're a really good doer, you kind of get promoted into a leadership role.
And those traits don't necessarily transition off.
(05:12):
So how does that turn into a dysfunction?
Just by not having the right training?
Eric Charran (05:16):
You're so right. In fact, that happened to me in my career.
I was a reluctant leader.
So early on, one of the worst things that you can do is take a good.
In my industry, you could take a good developer, a technologist, and make them a manager.
And, you know, at the onset, I was kind of jazzed up.
It's a recognition of your talent and your capability, your effectiveness and your results.
(05:37):
But then I started to figure out, oh, my gosh, now I have to deal with performance appraisals
and vacation requests and performance issues and all this kind of stuff, which sapped my energy
early on in my career.
And so I realized that I was, you know, I was kind of like, embodied.
What you just brought, that point you just brought up is like, some of the worst things you
can do is to take a really good person and individual contributor, make them a manager.
(06:01):
And so I spent the next 10 years as a, you know, 10 to 15 years as a.
As a willful individual contributor, and only when my management chain tackled me and said,
hey, I need you to start looking after people.
And I said, well, hey, I love leading, but I don't know if I love managing.
It turns out that I did have a passion for it.
It just took me a good 10 to 15 years to find that passion.
(06:24):
But I definitely believe that there is a distinct difference between leaders and managers.
Sometimes a manager isn't a leader, and they have to kind of be educated in that way sometimes.
Lots of organizations, including the ones I've been a part of, focus leadership training and
management training on the top, you know, the most senior elements of the organization, when
(06:46):
really a lot of that energy should be leveled at new leaders and new managers so that they do
get the right tools in the toolbox.
Because ultimately what will happen is when I was, you know, got my first leadership position,
I looked at what my manager did, and I'm like, okay, this is what's expected of me.
This is, you know, my manager's obviously been here for some time.
The way in which he's led me makes me believe that this is how the organization wants me to
(07:11):
inspire, lead, get results for my team, and I'm going to actually do those things.
And so my perspective is we should constantly be investing in new leaders, in young leaders
that are early in career to give them the foundation so that these unhelpful behaviors maybe hopefully never even manifest.
Tim Staton (07:32):
That's a great point, completely agree with you on that.
And you talked about managers.
So you categorize different managers into unique archetypes.
So which archetypes do you think cause the most long term damage and which one is the most misunderstood?
Eric Charran (07:49):
Gosh, that's a great, great question.
It's kind of like almost asking me to choose, you know, choose your favorite kid, right?
I think the ones that are, that have the greatest propensity for disruption, for damage really
depends on the individual that's being subject to those behaviors.
So we're all, we're all significantly different unique individuals.
(08:09):
So if you ask me, I'm going to have a more unique perspective than somebody else.
So for me, I really like preparation.
I like being able to show up to a high stakes C level meeting and with confidence and with preparation
and data backed information, really just cruise through that meeting and deliver a solid message.
(08:30):
The steps in order to achieve that might start a month before that individual session.
So I really like being prepared.
I really like making sure that everybody knows their part and you know, people are going to,
you know, just support you in the right way.
The attack sub manager I write about as an archetype really is a foil to somebody like me because
(08:53):
the attack sub manager will run like, just like the, the name says.
If you're, you get the, the analogy.
It's like they're like a submarine, they run deep below the waters.
Slack messages, emails, phone calls just bounce right off of them because they're, they're,
they're so busy or they're, they, or it's either that they're super busy or they have an inability
(09:16):
to triage and prioritize and process and you know, that kind of thing.
And so maybe you'll be at an airport about to travel for business.
The attack sub manager emerges from beneath the waters, launches a bunch of missiles.
Hey, we've got a presentation that's due tomorrow.
It's with your, it's with the C suite.
We, they're going to want to get an Update on all 10 of our projects, make sure that you put
(09:37):
together a slide deck that covers them and also anticipates their questions and you know, makes
us, makes us look good.
Don't make it, don't goof up.
And then so right as you're about to get on the flight, you get this, you know, the slack message
or you know, email and you're like, wait, who's going to be there?
How long do we have?
What, what time is it?
How much, how much time can we prepare?
(09:58):
Is it Just me or should.
Should I write this for you?
Like, all these details to make the presentation more impactful, but by that time, they've already
submerged again and they've gone beneath the waves.
And you'll never hear from them again until right before the meeting when they do what I call the swoop and poop.
So they will, you know, in the hallway, like, this has happened to me outside of the meeting before.
We're about to go in.
(10:19):
Let me see the slides real quick, Eric.
And they go, gosh, this is not anything like what I had anticipated or imagined. Well, too late now.
Let's just go ahead in.
So for me, that is one of the most disruptive, challenging aspects to deal with.
Tim Staton (10:33):
So which one do you think is the most misunderstood out of all of them, though?
Eric Charran (10:37):
The one that I have a lot of sympathy for is the amnesiac, and probably because I see a little
bit of myself in this at times.
So the amnesiac as a manager, that.
And I write about this in the book, like as an example, you go to a meeting and you have this
really well prepared justification for, you know, convincing a senior leader of a particular
(11:03):
point or a course of action.
And then in that meeting, for some reason, your manager, who's supposed to amplify already debriefed
on your results and what the message is, kind of just asks these questions in which you wonder
how it's possible that they don't know these things they didn't know, despite you preparing them.
(11:25):
They seem to have no memory of this slide that you're presenting, no memory of the message,
no memory of what you're trying to convince them for, no understanding of the value of it, no
real understanding of what it is that you're there to convince.
And so in many instances, sometimes the amnesiac manager who seems to have forgotten everything
may actually turn into your first adversary in that meeting in which they ask questions like,
(11:50):
why are we doing this? Who greenlit this project? What's the value here?
Are we sure that this is the right thing to do?
And it's just turn into this undermining your deconstruction of everything that you're there
to convince senior leadership of.
And in many instances, when I encountered this for the first time, these unhelpful behaviors,
(12:10):
why I use the term archetypes, is because they reoccur across many different managers throughout many people's careers.
The first time I encountered this, I was shocked and horrified.
I went from anger to disbelief to, even if you disagreed with me, how can you cut across me
in the meeting and just completely disrupt.
(12:31):
But the reason why I think that they're understood or why I understand them is because these
leaders are under immense pressure.
The pressure that these senior leaders tend to be under includes delivering results, you know,
providing visibility, understanding and forecasting when things are going to happen, dealing
with people that require time on their calendar to get their input on things.
(12:54):
And so what I talk about in the book is that these are leaders that are under such intense pressure
that when they're making decisions, they are not committing those decisions to long term memory.
I talk about it in order of like RAM and rom, which RAM is like, you know, temporary memory, working memory.
It's high performance memory in a computer.
But eventually when you turn your computer off, everything leaves ram and if you didn't store
(13:19):
it into rom, which is your disk, it's never going to be recalled again. And so the.
I talk about some coping mechanisms as to how you can actually work with your manager, manage
upwards and get them to kind of overcome some of these challenges that they have.
Tim Staton (13:35):
That's a great analogy when it comes to the amnesiac.
And I've ran into a lot of amnesiacs in my career.
The attack sub, not so much.
So what do you think turns people into the attack sub manager?
Like what do you think happens that they adopt this Persona or this archetype?
Eric Charran (13:53):
It's a great question in the book, I kind of theorize, but I hate to prescribe, you know, every individual is different.
So it might be difficult to kind of prescribe how this, this unhelpful behavior manifests because
this is one of the ones.
Like I said, you know, managers manage how they were managed.
The attacks of archetype isn't necessarily one that, you know, nobody says, well, hey, my manager
(14:16):
never replied to email, so I'm not going to do it either. Right.
So it's an interesting outlier, but I think it has something to do with just the inability to prioritize. These people are.
And it's not because, I mean it might be because they just don't have a prioritization muscle.
But in many instances they do have the prioritization skill.
There's just the volume is so immense and so intense and so rapid fire that they just don't
(14:41):
have time to catch up.
And as a result, the cause for this could be multimodal or multifactor or multifaceted.
Maybe that's a better term.
The causes might be that they are taking on too much.
They might say that, you know what, I'm the only one that can make this choice or these decisions
or deliver this with quality.
And as a result, I'm going to take it on rather than delegate it.
(15:03):
They might just be in a situation where the workload, they're managing too many teams, their
scope is too big and they need some additional help.
It might also be that the organization, they signed up for additional responsibilities or stretch
goals to prove that they're ready for the next level of leadership, and it's just too much for them.
(15:24):
So it could be any number of those or maybe a combination of many or all of those things that
kind of exacerbate this behavior.
But ultimately it's important to, in all of these archetypes, to kind of work with and manage upwards.
Because these behaviors really persist in silence when nobody says anything and people just
think that they have to kind of put up with it.
That's really where these behaviors will persist and that leader will take these unhelpful tools
(15:50):
to their next team and their next team and their next team.
Tim Staton (15:53):
Yeah. And nobody wants to suffer in silence.
And I don't want to anymore either.
And so I think you make a great point when you talk about managing upwards.
And with every dysfunction, it always leads to, like, some type of function, some way.
There's always a function in the dysfunction.
You talk about turning dysfunction into personal growth.
(16:15):
So what's one story from your own career where you did exactly that and what changed for you?
Eric Charran (16:20):
One of the things that I felt a success story, and I actually use this as an example in the
book, was there was a manager archetype, which I call the lifo, which stands.
It stands for last in first out in accounting parlance. Right.
And this archetype really is focused on the last thing that I've been asked to do. I will do it.
(16:43):
And this is now the most important thing that my teams and their teams has to do.
Everybody needs to stop doing everything else because the chief data officer or chief financial
officer asked us to focus on this new thing.
The challenge with this is that this oftentimes happens in business, right. Or in organizations.
(17:05):
Sometimes you have to put the hold on an existing project and you actually then have to focus
on the new thing because there's some regulatory compliance or operational inefficiencies that
are, that become super important, the organization's losing money, whatever it might be.
However, if this happens again and again and again, the teams will eventually develop whiplash
(17:28):
in which not only do they become dissatisfied because they can't seem to finish anything, but
they are reticent to pour their hearts and souls and energy into completing a job, because they
know with dread that in the next week or two, there's going to be a new emergency that is going
to take them off their existing work.
(17:49):
And this can have several damaging impacts and dysfunctions because the team is now no longer productive.
The team's throughput had been throttled by their own dread of when they're going to be asked
to switch tasks at the end of the year.
The question becomes, well, what did they actually deliver?
And the answer is very little.
Because you kept switching tasks to do the new thing and if you'd never finish something, then
(18:15):
it looks like you just haven't done anything to somebody high up enough in the organization.
So this is the biggest element of dysfunction.
And the question becomes, well, what do you do in order to kind of help mitigate this?
Well, I think the first thing is to understand, get the leader to understand, hey, you know what?
We didn't finish some of our commitments to the organization.
(18:35):
Which means at the end of the year, when you and me and everybody else under us are asked, how
did we do associated with helping the organization do xyz, we're not going to be able to say
that we did that because we keep switching tasks.
And in some instances it's also equipping them with the, I guess I'll call it verbal skill or
(19:00):
verbal tools to kind of just say, hey, you might need to push back in the meeting where you're
getting a new assignment saying, I understand this is super important and if I, if I'm reading
you right, these are the reasons why you're asking us to focus on this.
Here's what doesn't get done if we focus on this thing right now.
So it's not like you're saying, no, you're saying, hey, maybe not right now because this was
(19:23):
the other thing that we're working on.
Happy to reprioritize, but I feel like we need to get this done.
So having an opinion and letting people know that there's costs associated with not doing the
immediate, not immediately, task switching is super important.
And giving your manager the ability to say those things in the sessions and then supporting
(19:44):
them in that session is the best way that I found to kind of help kickstart that behavior extinction.
Tim Staton (19:52):
That's great that you have that framework there for people to be able to kind of help lead up on that.
I believe it happens more often than people probably want to admit.
And it's a horrible feeling towards the end of the year, if you're on a team like that.
And you're like, well, what did I really accomplish?
Eric Charran (20:07):
Right, right. And in many instances, it has real economic impact because you're rated on what
results you delivered and how good a job you did and that kind of stuff.
And so, you know, if you don't have concrete results, then you're, you're falling prey to what
many organizations tend to reward, which is busyness versus outcomes.
Many organizations love, you know, love.
(20:29):
You know, managers talk about how busy their teams are, but ultimately, you're not really delivering
value, and that can be more dangerous as an area of exposure.
Tim Staton (20:38):
No, absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned earlier that you kind of empathized with one of
these archetypes over the other, and that was the amnesiac.
But you also emphasized empathy and emotional intelligence in your book.
So why do you think these are such underrated leadership tools, especially in toxic environments?
Eric Charran (20:56):
Yeah, it's a great question.
And in fact, you're right.
I underscore it in every single one of the archetypes that I write about, and even ones in which
I haven't, you know, which didn't make the cut in the book.
The key here is when you first encounter these behaviors, you think that it's being done to you.
There's something about you as a professional that, or a person that is insufficient.
(21:22):
And as a result, you are now being subjected to these undesirable or unhelpful behaviors because you know what?
This person is not the best.
Or maybe I'm not the best, and I have to figure out why the person is acting this way.
The, the, the key thing to realize here is that I, I think there's a saying that I like to quote.
(21:43):
I don't even know where it came from. I'm. But I, I, I.
So I can't give it proper attribution.
But it's, it's Q tip, which is quit taking it personal.
It's not necessarily in many, in most cases, I'll say it's not.
Has nothing to do with you.
It's just the tool that they have.
And as a result, you have to realize that even though it feels like this behavior is being directed at you, it's not.
(22:05):
So that's the first thing.
But then the second thing is once you realize that once you encounter these behaviors, or potentially
you read the book and you're like, oh, I recognize this behavior, the question becomes like,
gosh, I really hate this behavior.
And then you kind of tie the behavior to the person because the behavior is being exhibited
by the person, and then potentially you're like, gosh, there's nothing I can do. And then you.
You potentially go into, like, this jaded downward spiral in which you hate your job.
(22:29):
The key to escaping that or to avoiding that altogether is to empathize with the person that's exhibiting the behavior.
I'm sure if you asked them and they knew the impact of the behavior, they'd be like, gosh, I.
I don't want that to happen.
I don't want to act that way.
If I knew that my behavior was demoralizing my team or demoralizing you, I wouldn't do that.
But I don't know what else to do.
(22:50):
So the key is to really understanding their motivation, why they're behaving that way and why
that and what their emotional context is.
And then doing so kind of separates you a little bit from the behavior itself and how it's affecting you.
And it gives you the power to kind of think about, well, if I look at this behavior, how can I help?
What steps can I take? What's in my.
(23:11):
What's within my sphere of influence or control that I can use to kind of just nudge this person onto the right track.
And that's kind of what I think emotional intelligence and empathy and understanding is the attack sub manager. In my case.
I had to realize that this person just didn't have the tools to manage their workload successfully.
(23:33):
And it was up to me to let them know, number one, how it impacts me and other team members.
Number two, what can I do for you to make this easier? Here's how.
I can either communicate with you differently, and I write about, like, how to address it from
context, switching on channels, communication channels, to really helping them grow in the book.
(23:54):
But understanding is the key to making sure that you don't dive into this negative spiral and take it personal.
Because again, you're going to see these behaviors in your career again and again and again.
Tim Staton (24:06):
Yeah, I think one of the hardest things to learn personally from is not taking it personal.
Like, things that happen aren't directed towards you personally.
It's an attribute or byproduct of the person that is leading the team and their own abilities.
So you talked about two principles and strategies that you talked in the book about talking
it out and writing it down.
(24:27):
What advice do you have for someone who tries your strategies, but they face a little bit of resistance from their bosses?
Eric Charran (24:32):
Oh, great one. So I think ultimately what people have to do is to try, keep trying your best. The. The reason.
And that might Sound that might sound very platonic, right?
But the idea here is that the.
None of the, none of, not one solution is going to work for every manager because underneath
(24:54):
the behaviors is an actual real person that might be struggling, might have personal professional
challenges and deficiencies, and they're on their own journey.
And so the key is to try to find a way in which if one avenue of advice doesn't work, that you
try to kind of re pivot and then find another avenue that's very similar, but it achieves the same results.
(25:15):
The key, I would say, is get the manager to a position or get the leader into a position where
they're willing to hear you and they're willing to accept what you are recommending.
A lot of times I tell my team that being right is only 50% of the battle.
The other 50% is trying to make sure that that person that you're trying to convince is willing to hear you.
(25:36):
And this goes for sales techniques.
And I think we've all been angry soul to you heard the angry seller.
The more you try to position data and to say, hey, obviously there's a, there's a sane choice here.
It's clear anybody with any intelligence would make this logical choice.
What we have to realize is that people typically don't make logical choices.
(25:58):
They make emotional ones and then they seek reason to back it up.
And if you are telling somebody something different, it has nothing to do with the fact that
your data is better than theirs, has everything to do with the fact that that person has emotionally bound to that decision.
And that if you try to overwhelm or overcome that decision with logic and reason and they are
not willing to listen, depart from that emotional binding, then it's going to bounce off them.
(26:23):
So you have to utilize techniques such as emotional intelligence and empathy to say, gosh, this,
your workload must be intense.
I can't imagine what it's like to have so many emails and slack messages to respond to.
What can I do to make it easier?
And for example, hey, you know what, it sounds like you and I could have an opportunity to develop
(26:44):
a better communication pattern so that I don't contribute to your overload.
What's the best way to do that? How would you.
And here are my suggestions and here's what this does for you because people always remember
what you've done for them.
And I think as any any employee on a team, your job is to try to make your manager's life easier and less stressful.
(27:05):
And that is typically more openly appreciated by your Manager.
Tim Staton (27:10):
No, absolutely. Great, great points on that one.
Let's, let's take a shift for a second.
We talked about the manager and now let's talk about if.
Let's say you're going into a tough meeting with difficult bosses.
What's one mindset or shift or strategy from your book that they can apply right now, today, going into that meeting?
Eric Charran (27:32):
There's lots of techniques going into a meeting.
I would say that there are books and books written about techniques around emotional intelligence,
active listening, mirroring, restating so that that person believes that you understand what they're saying.
All of those things are necessary ingredients.
(27:53):
In fact, early on in my career, funny story is I had a great manager who amplified, I stood on his shoulders.
This individual was really instrumental in teaching me what leadership was all about and provided
me some great career opportunities.
And so, you know, early on in my career as a technologist, I valued knowing things to the point
(28:15):
where I would be able to walk into a room and be the most effusive and most intelligent person
in that room about whatever topic it was I was presenting on.
But as I got into the field and started working with, you know, Microsoft customers, for example,
these folks were more senior in their careers, you know, at the time, maybe like 20 years older than me.
(28:35):
And the one thing they didn't really value is some, you know, early in career person coming
in and just spitting up a bunch of data and recommendations and the right things to do because
they felt like I didn't listen to them, that I was not investing in their particular challenges
and I didn't really understand their problems and what their goals were as a result.
And so these individuals would say, sounds like you're bringing your a talent, but this person really doesn't get me.
(29:00):
And so as a result, even if I'm telling them, hey, you are about to walk off a cliff, I've seen
other customers do it or other people do it, you're headed there. They wouldn't listen.
So my manager at the time said, eric, I want you to sit on your hands in this meeting.
And so I physically sat on my hands, not kidding.
And every time that I really wanted to just spout out what the right answer was, I kind of just
(29:21):
said I asked the question instead.
And this technique really helped out quite a bit, you know, so it became more along the lines
of saying things like, hey, if I was behind your desk, this is how I would feel about this scenario.
It's got to be kind of challenging.
And I've seen this before and I'VE dealt with this before and so I know kind of exactly what you're going through.
And what I think is you feel this way about this particular problem and if you had a magic wand,
(29:46):
this is what you would have happen. Is that right?
And so asking that follow up question like, is that right?
Gets you to that level of understanding where they opening up, they're willing, they're more
willing to listen to you.
So I think that's the number one thing that I would recommend is practice, emotional intelligence
practice, you know, active listening, practice, question asking practice, mirroring the person
(30:10):
as well, like you know, from a physical, you know, body language standpoint just to get to the
point where they are open to hearing some of your suggestions.
And this is with a manager or you know, from to a C suite board, you know, that you're meeting with.
Tim Staton (30:24):
I love those strategies. Those are great strategies that you can implement today.
And you seem like a very reflective type person.
So while you were writing this book, how has that changed the way that you lead others?
Eric Charran (30:38):
Oh, so what was interesting is the way this book came about is a bunch of vice presidents.
We were all kind of just talking together and we were talking about some of these behaviors
and how we've seen them before and we were kind of guessing what the person did and they were
like, that's amazing that you've seen that before.
And now you're giving me advice. This is amazing.
(30:59):
And so we kind of started giving the behaviors funny names.
And then somebody said, hey, you know, maybe one of you should write this down.
And I said, I'll write it down.
So as I was writing the book, every author says this, right?
But I actually mean it.
Not that they don't, but the book kind of wrote itself.
But what was funny is while I was writing it, I'm like, oh my goodness, I've probably done this
(31:22):
because I've had leaders that have done this to me and now I'm doing it to my, my team.
So that that level of self awareness, you know, and a lot of times you can read this book through two lenses.
The first is as a person that has a leader or manager.
And then you can read it as a leader or manager that has people. And it's.
(31:44):
I found myself going back and forth between those two Personas as I was writing the book.
And I realized that self awareness is critical as a leader. Being able to just.
And some people have it and some people don't.
Some people have to develop it.
For those folks that have to develop it, the one technique that I used early on in my career
was if I was on the receiving end of what I'm typing, what I'm saying, what I'm slacking, what
(32:09):
I'm texting, how would this person receive that?
Would they receive it as kind of like a brusque message?
Would they receive it as directive?
Would they receive it as helpful?
Just beginning to exercise that portion of your consciousness to say, like, how do people receive what I'm saying?
And if you don't have any information on that, ask certainly, you know, say, hey, what's, what's
(32:31):
helpful that I do and what's helpful that I don't? Servant leadership and humility.
Leading with humility are things that I ascribe to. Absolutely.
And so that's, that helps keep me grounded and keeps me self aware.
But I began to realize that I myself am probably doing some of these things today.
Tim Staton (32:47):
I think self awareness is critically important.
And as we grow as leaders and as we write books and stuff, it has a change.
And so I'm glad to hear the way that it kind of reinforced things for you.
So I always like to give everybody the last word on the show.
So is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to talk about or something that
you're like, you know, I just need say this as my last word.
Eric Charran (33:10):
I would say the one thing.
Maybe, maybe we chatted about it a little bit, but it was like one of the things I think that's
important for everybody to realize is that you should know your worth.
One of the things that Microsoft CEO, I had a great opportunity to spend some time with him
in my leadership journey at Microsoft.
And he told me that, hey, leadership is the number one thing that attracts people.
(33:35):
But also you have to really understand that people don't quit teams, they don't quit organizations, they quit managers.
And that to me is a realization.
It's a cautionary tale for leaders that are looking to attract and maintain talent.
But it also helps you as an individual person that's working for a leader that might have a
collection of unhelpful behaviors and that you try to apply some of the techniques in the book
(33:58):
that I wrote about and others have written about, and it's just not working.
You have to know your worth enough to be able to say, you know what, I'm not going to throw
any more good energy after bad.
I'm going to go find an opportunity to thrive and excel outside of this leader.
And that's really where I'm going because I know that I can go to, you know, this other organization
and thrive, or this other team and thrive, or this other leader and thrive.
(34:21):
So the key is make sure that you're not running from a burning building, but you're running
to something that's going to provide you with additional opportunity and growth.
Tim Staton (34:29):
Well, Eric, I really appreciate those those final thoughts.
And for everybody listening to this right now, if you want to get a copy of have you ever had
a boss that it's going to be in the descriptions below and I'm going to post all of his information
in the descriptions of this episode.
So that way you can go down there and you can check them all out and go to them and see them for yourself.
So, Eric, I really appreciate you being on the show.
Eric Charran (34:51):
Thanks for having me. This is a great chat as always.
Tim Staton (34:54):
Thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode you'll
(35:15):
be alerted, please go ahead and do.
All that before you go.
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
here today, but may not have found our show yet.
Again, thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Staton Dayton. The obvious.
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