November 8, 2024 • 20 mins
In this episode, we delve into the distinctions between education, schooling, and indoctrination, offering insights into the diverse interpretations of education. Education is defined as a process that draws out individual potential and encourages self-discovery, standing in contrast to the structured framework of schooling. Over time, schooling has shifted from a space for reflective discussion to a focus on instruction and memorization. Historically, education in ancient Rome and the medieval era transitioned from informal gatherings to formal institutions imparting specific knowledge and societal roles, often shaped by religious influences. In modern times, schools frequently emphasize standardized curricula, prioritizing memorization over personal discovery and reflective engagement.
Indoctrination, originating from “endoctrinare,” involves teaching principles as absolute truths without promoting exploration. While schools aim to educate, they often inadvertently indoctrinate students into accepted worldviews, limiting critical thinking. Effective leadership, however, surpasses traditional schooling by fostering curiosity and understanding, encouraging individuals to question norms and apply theories in real-world contexts through experimentation and reflection. True education nurtures individual strengths and creativity, promoting independent thinking over rigid adherence to doctrines.
For me, genuine education is an active, continuous process that cultivates self-awareness and emotional intelligence, empowering me to inspire others authentically. It requires self-belief and conveying that belief through storytelling, fostering genuine growth and empowerment within organizations. I advocate for reclaiming education as a liberating journey that prioritizes curiosity over conformity. Emphasizing the importance of creating environments in organizations where questioning and exploration are encouraged, I differentiate between an educated workforce driven by curiosity and a schooled workforce limited by indoctrination. While degrees may suggest some level of indoctrination, they do not equate to true education or critical thinking, prompting reflection on whether organizations prefer free-thinking individuals or those simply indoctrinated.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim (00:00):
Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
(00:01):
Over the last several weeks, I've been talking about the concept of education and why it's so important.
And I often find out after talking to people that we have very different concepts of what education really means.
So in this episode, we're gonna break down the difference between schooling, education, and
indoctrination, and why you may think you're getting an education, but really you're being indoctrinated.
(00:27):
This is Tim Staton with Tim Staton the obvious.
What is this podcast about? It's simple.
You are entitled to great leadership everywhere you go, whether it's a church, whether it's
to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into everyday relatable and usable advice. And And
Disclaimer (00:51):
a quick disclaimer. The show process or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer, otherwise,
does not necessarily constitute and implied and endorse of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of any employer.
Tim (01:02):
So let's break these words down together.
So that way, we can fully get a concept of what we're really talking about.
So let's start with the word education.
It comes from the Latin word educare, which means to bring up, to nourish, to lead out.
This idea is rooted in the concept of e, which is e, meaning out of and which means to lead.
(01:28):
So education isn't about pouring knowledge into somebody.
It's about drawing out what's in us, drawing out our potential, guiding people towards a deeper
understanding, and helping them to discover insights that already knew that existed within them.
(01:48):
Think about that for a second.
Education in its truest form is about self discovery and growth.
It's not passive it's not a passive process.
It's something that's active and where, you know, you simply transfer information from a teacher to a student.
Instead, it's an act of personal liberating act and the act of bringing out what's what's in
(02:11):
somebody, nurturing each person's unique strengths, curiosities, and critical thinking skills,
and building upon those skills to bring about what's already there to light.
Now let's look at the word school.
Its origin comes from the Greek word skule.
In ancient Greece, skule initially meant leisure or free time.
(02:35):
But over time, it came to represent something more.
An assembly or a gathering where people would come to discuss and contemplate and explore ideas
at their leisure, for their leisure time, in their spare time of doing the things that they
need to do during the day.
In their spare time, they would come to talk and discuss and and and bring about some education.
(02:58):
The initial schools weren't about facts and memorization and repetition.
It was about discussion and questions and opening ideas and a place where people could come together for common discourse.
You know, as society evolved, so did the meaning of school.
The idea of school shifted, from a leisurely reflective gathering to an institution where people
(03:26):
assembled to express purpose of instruction.
In ancient Rome, for instance, school became more formalized and over time the concept spread.
And by the time it reached medieval times in Europe, schooling had transformed into a structured
environment of instruction often rooted in religious doctrine.
This change came from informal gathering to a formal institution meant for the purpose of schooling people.
(03:53):
Instead of simply being a place to discuss openly and freely, it became a place to impart specific
knowledge and values, preparing individuals to take their place in society.
So think about what that means to today.
When you go to school, no matter what age you are, right?
Whether you're in elementary school, you're going to school to learn how to do specific skills.
(04:18):
You're gonna learn how to read, how to write, very important skills.
Someone's imparting knowledge upon you.
You're also learning how to sit still for a long period of time and focus on somebody else and
develop that discipline of self control.
You're also learning how to produce a product for somebody else who is expecting something from you.
School is a place of indoctrination for the workforce.
(04:42):
So here we have 2 concepts.
Education as a drawing out of us and school as structured places of assembly to learn.
Originally, both concepts supported each other.
But today, they're often at odds.
Schools are often more focused on teaching a certain set of curriculum and less on fostering individual discovery.
The shift is one of the main reasons why school often feels different than the natural self
(05:08):
reflecting self directed learning we all experience when we follow our own curiosity.
When we follow the things that we're interested in, and we do the disciplined part of active
active learning of the things that we're curious about, we tend to learn more, And that is the
part of where I say we need to be educated.
Whatever the field that you're in, if you're curious about it, you need to learn to question,
(05:30):
to grow, to ask the question so that way you could be better in whatever it is that you're in.
So when we look at these two words, the true meaning of education means that you're going to
have to reflect and ponder on a specific subject for a long Tim, and really get into it, and
understand it and peel back the onion, the different layers of everything that is there to truly understand what it is.
(05:58):
Schooling does not do that.
Schooling forces memorization of facts.
Schooling forces repetitive nature of things and to be formalized and cookie cutter.
It does not force you to learn something and dive into it.
It forces you to memorize so you can recall a fact.
So now that we talked about what education and schooling is, let's talk about indoctrination.
(06:24):
So indoctrination now has a pretty negative connotation to it, or it has a negative feel to it.
And and that's because people tie it to other negative things.
But the term indoctrination comes from the Latin word endoctrinare, which means to teach or to instruct.
Its root, doctrina, refers to a set of teachings or principles that is expected to accept without question.
(06:48):
It's not about exploring ideas or encouraging curiosity.
It's about providing a predetermined set of beliefs or principles that one is expected to absorb and follow.
So when we look at indoctrination and we look at what we're talking about, it has to teach or to instruct.
When you go to school, you have a teacher who teaches you, who instructs you, which is doctrina,
(07:12):
which is pretty interesting, I think.
Because now what we're really talking about is the school is the gathering of people where you receive indoctrination.
Then they say, once you get that indoctrination, then you become educated, which is not necessarily true.
Because education comes from self reflection and learning and drawing out from what what is within outward. Those words have meaning.
(07:35):
And it's interesting because with a doctrine, right?
That is a prescribed worldview that is to be accepted as a fact without question.
And one of the key aspects of indoctrination in schooling is the teaching of theories as if
they were absolute facts without room for question or exploration.
And this happens often in science, history, and other subjects where we're presented with theories
(07:57):
and frameworks created by people to help explain the phenomena of the world around us.
And we accept them as an undeniable truths, right?
So one undeniable truth that they teach today is the concept well known of gravity.
Now it's actually true in our experience, right?
So if we throw an object up into the air, it will likely fall to the ground unless something acts upon it.
(08:21):
The action and reaction up and down.
We're explaining an observable consequence that is consistent and replicable over time.
And we can definitely say if I do x, then y will happen every time.
But the theory of gravity, the idea that there is an invisible force pulling it down towards
(08:43):
another object, while it's wildly accepted, the theory still remains a theory.
It explains why you can observe the things that are happening around you in the world.
It doesn't necessarily mean that that is absolutely true.
It just means we have a theory to explain what is happening around us and we are accepting it as being truth.
(09:03):
But when we go to school, we are taught that all these theories are facts.
Instead of saying this is a theory and this is how we observe things and allow people to question
it themselves and allow people to come to their own conclusions about what is actually true
or false, we have these schools that really help indoctrinate you into what we believe as a society.
(09:27):
And schools are different around the globe, and how they teach and indoctrinate people, how
you fit into society is different in different countries.
But the end result, we end up with students who know how to repeat information Staton, but lack
skills to question, explore, and truly understand the world around them.
And this system doesn't encourage critical thinking discover or discovery.
(09:50):
Instead, it conditions people to accept and follow, to respect authority over curiosity, and
to minimize and to memorize instead of truly learning.
So how is this applicable to leadership?
Well, pretty, pretty simple in my opinion.
When we look at leadership, leadership is built on a foundation of self directed learning, something
(10:13):
that goes far beyond schooling and in management principles and following a checklist of best practices.
We talk about learning in the context of leadership.
We're talking about a process that's ongoing. It's personal.
And it's driven by curiosity.
A great leader just doesn't follow a set of theories that they've been taught.
It's a good framework to help understand the world around us.
(10:36):
But we have to adapt them.
We have to apply them.
We have to constantly learn what's around us and apply new things and new sets of knowledge cons constantly.
You know, the Greek word for learning is, which means to understand, to know.
And that's why I always say, from a leadership standpoint, seek understanding. Seek understanding.
(11:01):
So then that way, in the process of standing, we can evaluate facts, implement strategy and
theory to help us understand ourselves, and understand people around us.
Think of it this way.
Most leaders know certain truths about leadership, such as the importance of communication, empathy, decision making.
(11:25):
But effective leaders go further than simply memorizing these principles.
They experiment with these with these ideas, Finding ways to apply them in real scenarios and learning from the outcomes.
They reflect on what worked and what didn't work and how they can improve.
It's an ongoing self process.
It's a form of education.
(11:46):
Leadership is about responding to real life situations, learning from experiences, and evolving over time.
Just like learning isn't limited to the classroom, true leadership development doesn't happen
happen solely through textbooks or through management theories.
It happens through observation, trial and error, and commitment to self improvement.
(12:07):
So a significant part of this process is questioning.
You know, we interviewed Sean Grace a couple episodes ago about the art of questioning, And
why questioning is so important and not having the right answers are necessarily not the most
important thing, but asking the right questions.
Great leaders are willing to challenge established norms, including their own assumptions and biases.
(12:29):
They aren't afraid to question the status quo or push back on practices that no longer serve our team.
This approach isn't about blindly accepting theories or controversial wisdom or conventional
wisdom, but engaging deeply with those concepts and seeking understanding through practical application.
(12:49):
And that's what this podcast is all about, imparting practical application of these theories into your everyday life.
So unlike indoctrination, which pushes a single unchanging view, true learning and leadership
empowers leaders to think critically, adjust their approaches, and respond creatively to the challenges around them.
And this is why I think that we have a decline in great leadership as time has evolved.
(13:15):
Because the meaning of education and learning and schooling has changed.
We've taken schooling as indoctrination and meaning educated.
If I have a degree, that means I'm educated. That's not true.
If you have a degree, it just means you can learn and recall and regurgitate facts really, really
well, and you didn't give up on the indoctrination process. That's what it means.
(13:36):
So if we go back to the term education or to educate, and we look at the root word educare,
we look at the word about drawing out.
As leaders, we want to draw out the best in others.
We want to draw out the best in us.
So real education is not about filling people's heads with indoctrination.
It's about drawing out people's strengths, people's potential, their qualities, their innate
(14:03):
ability that makes them different from somebody else, that makes them valuable to everyone around them.
So true leadership is about that and that through an education process of yourself and others, we become better people.
And we become better leaders.
As leaders, when we're encouraged to develop our own approaches and to solving problems and
(14:24):
navigating challenges and opportunities, inspiring others, we're participating in active form of education.
That's why I say education never stops.
When you're trying to actively solve a problem as a team and lead everyone together, we're educating
everybody at the same time and drawing out the goodness in everybody around our teams.
(14:44):
So we're not just consuming knowledge, we're creating it as it happens.
It's shaping our leadership styles and based and that is based on our personal values, our insights,
and our experiences, and where we come from, which are incredibly impactful.
And in this essence, I think about, are you a Clausewitz fan or are you a Jomini fan? Right?
Jomini says this is the framework to success, where Clausewitz ponders about why we failed,
(15:10):
and how the failures happen, and why we have the successes we have.
And so in that essence, and and when we think about leadership, we need to think about it in
the questioning and the pondering aspect other than if you follow these steps, you're going to be great. That's not necessarily true.
It doesn't apply to every situation.
So we think of this leading out processes cultivating self awareness and emotional intelligence.
(15:33):
Effective leadership requires that we deeply understand ourselves, our strengths, our blind
spots, our motivation, so we can lead others authentically.
You don't believe what other people say because they don't truly believe it about themselves first.
You know, we learned that last week with Andrea when she came onto the show.
She talked about storytelling and the stories that we tell.
(15:54):
And so if I believe something, but I don't believe you believe it, but I'm telling the story
anyway, you're not gonna believe it.
So you gotta lead knowing what you know, and knowing that they will also believe what you know.
And you're going to come into your own authentically.
This approach makes for the best leaders.
(16:14):
So in essence, real education and leadership means leading others out of dependence on rigid
doctrines and into a space where they can think and act independently.
When we apply the concept of drawing out into leadership, we create a pathway for leaders to
(16:36):
develop authentic self directed approaches.
This process not only makes for better leaders, but also fosters a culture of genuine growth,
trust, and empowerment within organizations.
I think education is incredibly important. Schooling, not so much.
So knowing all this, what does this really mean?
What does this mean for us, really?
(16:59):
It means we need to reclaim the idea of education in its truest form as something that is active, liberating, and deeply personal.
It's about nurturing the love of learning in ourselves and others encouraging curiosity rather than conformity.
Each of us can play a role in this.
(17:21):
We can encourage questioning, foster curiosity, create spaces where people feel free to explore,
and and feel free to make mistakes.
We talk about psychological safety.
That's really what this is about.
Educating, drawing out that edge that curiosity, drawing out that questioning.
Even in high stakes environments, you can still be the best leaders by fostering that environment.
(17:46):
I personally think education is important and should be a daily practice for everybody.
When leaders say they don't when leaders say they need an educated workforce, I agree.
And in some instances, what people are really saying is they need a schooled workforce.
They need a technical workforce.
And for some jobs, if you're like a plant manufacturer and you own a plant manufacturing business
(18:09):
or some other thing that requires an assembly line, yes, you need a school to work for us.
You don't necessarily need an educated one.
But if you're in a law firm or in a thought leadership forum or if you're in public relations,
if you're any leadership role, you need an educated workforce.
You need people who are curious about self awareness and drawing out the best in others.
(18:33):
And that's where true education comes from.
Some of the most educated people I know have the least amount of schooling.
And that's because they dig deep into what they're passionate about and they're curious about.
And they develop themselves and they develop everyone else around them because they're drawing
out the best in everybody.
So I'm gonna leave this with you.
(18:54):
What do you think about the difference in schooling and indoctrination and education?
I don't believe that degrees equals equals education. Degrees equals indoctrination.
And if you want an indoctrinated workforce, you're going to get one if you'd look only for degrees.
Degrees, don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing them.
(19:15):
I think education is important.
I don't think a degree for a sake of degree proves anything.
So I'm going to ask you, what do you want in your organization?
Do you want free thinking people or do you want indoctrinated people? There's no wrong answer.
Let me know down below.
As always, thank you for stopping by and listening to this episode.
(19:35):
And I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with 1 or 2 people who you think would like this episode
or this topic, share it with them.
If you haven't followed or subscribed on any on the platform that you're listening to this on,
please hit all the bells, the whistles, the icons, everything else so you know when we release another episode.
(19:58):
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
spread this show with other people who might be interested in the topics, but just haven't found our show yet.
Again, thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Stainton, Staton the obvious.
Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
(00:01):
Over the last several weeks, I've been talking about the concept of education and why it's so important.
And I often find out after talking to people that we have very different concepts of what education really means.
So in this episode, we're gonna break down the difference between schooling, education, and
indoctrination, and why you may think you're getting an education, but really you're being indoctrinated.
(00:27):
This is Tim Staton with Tim Staton the obvious.
What is this podcast about? It's simple.
You are entitled to great leadership everywhere you go, whether it's a church, whether it's
to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into everyday relatable and usable advice. And And
Disclaimer (00:51):
a quick disclaimer. The show process or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer, otherwise,
does not necessarily constitute and implied and endorse of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show are my own expressed and do not necessarily state or
reflect those of any employer.
Tim (01:02):
So let's break these words down together.
So that way, we can fully get a concept of what we're really talking about.
So let's start with the word education.
It comes from the Latin word educare, which means to bring up, to nourish, to lead out.
This idea is rooted in the concept of e, which is e, meaning out of and which means to lead.
(01:28):
So education isn't about pouring knowledge into somebody.
It's about drawing out what's in us, drawing out our potential, guiding people towards a deeper
understanding, and helping them to discover insights that already knew that existed within them.
(01:48):
Think about that for a second.
Education in its truest form is about self discovery and growth.
It's not passive it's not a passive process.
It's something that's active and where, you know, you simply transfer information from a teacher to a student.
Instead, it's an act of personal liberating act and the act of bringing out what's what's in
(02:11):
somebody, nurturing each person's unique strengths, curiosities, and critical thinking skills,
and building upon those skills to bring about what's already there to light.
Now let's look at the word school.
Its origin comes from the Greek word skule.
In ancient Greece, skule initially meant leisure or free time.
(02:35):
But over time, it came to represent something more.
An assembly or a gathering where people would come to discuss and contemplate and explore ideas
at their leisure, for their leisure time, in their spare time of doing the things that they
need to do during the day.
In their spare time, they would come to talk and discuss and and and bring about some education.
(02:58):
The initial schools weren't about facts and memorization and repetition.
It was about discussion and questions and opening ideas and a place where people could come together for common discourse.
You know, as society evolved, so did the meaning of school.
The idea of school shifted, from a leisurely reflective gathering to an institution where people
(03:26):
assembled to express purpose of instruction.
In ancient Rome, for instance, school became more formalized and over time the concept spread.
And by the time it reached medieval times in Europe, schooling had transformed into a structured
environment of instruction often rooted in religious doctrine.
This change came from informal gathering to a formal institution meant for the purpose of schooling people.
(03:53):
Instead of simply being a place to discuss openly and freely, it became a place to impart specific
knowledge and values, preparing individuals to take their place in society.
So think about what that means to today.
When you go to school, no matter what age you are, right?
Whether you're in elementary school, you're going to school to learn how to do specific skills.
(04:18):
You're gonna learn how to read, how to write, very important skills.
Someone's imparting knowledge upon you.
You're also learning how to sit still for a long period of time and focus on somebody else and
develop that discipline of self control.
You're also learning how to produce a product for somebody else who is expecting something from you.
School is a place of indoctrination for the workforce.
(04:42):
So here we have 2 concepts.
Education as a drawing out of us and school as structured places of assembly to learn.
Originally, both concepts supported each other.
But today, they're often at odds.
Schools are often more focused on teaching a certain set of curriculum and less on fostering individual discovery.
The shift is one of the main reasons why school often feels different than the natural self
(05:08):
reflecting self directed learning we all experience when we follow our own curiosity.
When we follow the things that we're interested in, and we do the disciplined part of active
active learning of the things that we're curious about, we tend to learn more, And that is the
part of where I say we need to be educated.
Whatever the field that you're in, if you're curious about it, you need to learn to question,
(05:30):
to grow, to ask the question so that way you could be better in whatever it is that you're in.
So when we look at these two words, the true meaning of education means that you're going to
have to reflect and ponder on a specific subject for a long Tim, and really get into it, and
understand it and peel back the onion, the different layers of everything that is there to truly understand what it is.
(05:58):
Schooling does not do that.
Schooling forces memorization of facts.
Schooling forces repetitive nature of things and to be formalized and cookie cutter.
It does not force you to learn something and dive into it.
It forces you to memorize so you can recall a fact.
So now that we talked about what education and schooling is, let's talk about indoctrination.
(06:24):
So indoctrination now has a pretty negative connotation to it, or it has a negative feel to it.
And and that's because people tie it to other negative things.
But the term indoctrination comes from the Latin word endoctrinare, which means to teach or to instruct.
Its root, doctrina, refers to a set of teachings or principles that is expected to accept without question.
(06:48):
It's not about exploring ideas or encouraging curiosity.
It's about providing a predetermined set of beliefs or principles that one is expected to absorb and follow.
So when we look at indoctrination and we look at what we're talking about, it has to teach or to instruct.
When you go to school, you have a teacher who teaches you, who instructs you, which is doctrina,
(07:12):
which is pretty interesting, I think.
Because now what we're really talking about is the school is the gathering of people where you receive indoctrination.
Then they say, once you get that indoctrination, then you become educated, which is not necessarily true.
Because education comes from self reflection and learning and drawing out from what what is within outward. Those words have meaning.
(07:35):
And it's interesting because with a doctrine, right?
That is a prescribed worldview that is to be accepted as a fact without question.
And one of the key aspects of indoctrination in schooling is the teaching of theories as if
they were absolute facts without room for question or exploration.
And this happens often in science, history, and other subjects where we're presented with theories
(07:57):
and frameworks created by people to help explain the phenomena of the world around us.
And we accept them as an undeniable truths, right?
So one undeniable truth that they teach today is the concept well known of gravity.
Now it's actually true in our experience, right?
So if we throw an object up into the air, it will likely fall to the ground unless something acts upon it.
(08:21):
The action and reaction up and down.
We're explaining an observable consequence that is consistent and replicable over time.
And we can definitely say if I do x, then y will happen every time.
But the theory of gravity, the idea that there is an invisible force pulling it down towards
(08:43):
another object, while it's wildly accepted, the theory still remains a theory.
It explains why you can observe the things that are happening around you in the world.
It doesn't necessarily mean that that is absolutely true.
It just means we have a theory to explain what is happening around us and we are accepting it as being truth.
(09:03):
But when we go to school, we are taught that all these theories are facts.
Instead of saying this is a theory and this is how we observe things and allow people to question
it themselves and allow people to come to their own conclusions about what is actually true
or false, we have these schools that really help indoctrinate you into what we believe as a society.
(09:27):
And schools are different around the globe, and how they teach and indoctrinate people, how
you fit into society is different in different countries.
But the end result, we end up with students who know how to repeat information Staton, but lack
skills to question, explore, and truly understand the world around them.
And this system doesn't encourage critical thinking discover or discovery.
(09:50):
Instead, it conditions people to accept and follow, to respect authority over curiosity, and
to minimize and to memorize instead of truly learning.
So how is this applicable to leadership?
Well, pretty, pretty simple in my opinion.
When we look at leadership, leadership is built on a foundation of self directed learning, something
(10:13):
that goes far beyond schooling and in management principles and following a checklist of best practices.
We talk about learning in the context of leadership.
We're talking about a process that's ongoing. It's personal.
And it's driven by curiosity.
A great leader just doesn't follow a set of theories that they've been taught.
It's a good framework to help understand the world around us.
(10:36):
But we have to adapt them.
We have to apply them.
We have to constantly learn what's around us and apply new things and new sets of knowledge cons constantly.
You know, the Greek word for learning is, which means to understand, to know.
And that's why I always say, from a leadership standpoint, seek understanding. Seek understanding.
(11:01):
So then that way, in the process of standing, we can evaluate facts, implement strategy and
theory to help us understand ourselves, and understand people around us.
Think of it this way.
Most leaders know certain truths about leadership, such as the importance of communication, empathy, decision making.
(11:25):
But effective leaders go further than simply memorizing these principles.
They experiment with these with these ideas, Finding ways to apply them in real scenarios and learning from the outcomes.
They reflect on what worked and what didn't work and how they can improve.
It's an ongoing self process.
It's a form of education.
(11:46):
Leadership is about responding to real life situations, learning from experiences, and evolving over time.
Just like learning isn't limited to the classroom, true leadership development doesn't happen
happen solely through textbooks or through management theories.
It happens through observation, trial and error, and commitment to self improvement.
(12:07):
So a significant part of this process is questioning.
You know, we interviewed Sean Grace a couple episodes ago about the art of questioning, And
why questioning is so important and not having the right answers are necessarily not the most
important thing, but asking the right questions.
Great leaders are willing to challenge established norms, including their own assumptions and biases.
(12:29):
They aren't afraid to question the status quo or push back on practices that no longer serve our team.
This approach isn't about blindly accepting theories or controversial wisdom or conventional
wisdom, but engaging deeply with those concepts and seeking understanding through practical application.
(12:49):
And that's what this podcast is all about, imparting practical application of these theories into your everyday life.
So unlike indoctrination, which pushes a single unchanging view, true learning and leadership
empowers leaders to think critically, adjust their approaches, and respond creatively to the challenges around them.
And this is why I think that we have a decline in great leadership as time has evolved.
(13:15):
Because the meaning of education and learning and schooling has changed.
We've taken schooling as indoctrination and meaning educated.
If I have a degree, that means I'm educated. That's not true.
If you have a degree, it just means you can learn and recall and regurgitate facts really, really
well, and you didn't give up on the indoctrination process. That's what it means.
(13:36):
So if we go back to the term education or to educate, and we look at the root word educare,
we look at the word about drawing out.
As leaders, we want to draw out the best in others.
We want to draw out the best in us.
So real education is not about filling people's heads with indoctrination.
It's about drawing out people's strengths, people's potential, their qualities, their innate
(14:03):
ability that makes them different from somebody else, that makes them valuable to everyone around them.
So true leadership is about that and that through an education process of yourself and others, we become better people.
And we become better leaders.
As leaders, when we're encouraged to develop our own approaches and to solving problems and
(14:24):
navigating challenges and opportunities, inspiring others, we're participating in active form of education.
That's why I say education never stops.
When you're trying to actively solve a problem as a team and lead everyone together, we're educating
everybody at the same time and drawing out the goodness in everybody around our teams.
(14:44):
So we're not just consuming knowledge, we're creating it as it happens.
It's shaping our leadership styles and based and that is based on our personal values, our insights,
and our experiences, and where we come from, which are incredibly impactful.
And in this essence, I think about, are you a Clausewitz fan or are you a Jomini fan? Right?
Jomini says this is the framework to success, where Clausewitz ponders about why we failed,
(15:10):
and how the failures happen, and why we have the successes we have.
And so in that essence, and and when we think about leadership, we need to think about it in
the questioning and the pondering aspect other than if you follow these steps, you're going to be great. That's not necessarily true.
It doesn't apply to every situation.
So we think of this leading out processes cultivating self awareness and emotional intelligence.
(15:33):
Effective leadership requires that we deeply understand ourselves, our strengths, our blind
spots, our motivation, so we can lead others authentically.
You don't believe what other people say because they don't truly believe it about themselves first.
You know, we learned that last week with Andrea when she came onto the show.
She talked about storytelling and the stories that we tell.
(15:54):
And so if I believe something, but I don't believe you believe it, but I'm telling the story
anyway, you're not gonna believe it.
So you gotta lead knowing what you know, and knowing that they will also believe what you know.
And you're going to come into your own authentically.
This approach makes for the best leaders.
(16:14):
So in essence, real education and leadership means leading others out of dependence on rigid
doctrines and into a space where they can think and act independently.
When we apply the concept of drawing out into leadership, we create a pathway for leaders to
(16:36):
develop authentic self directed approaches.
This process not only makes for better leaders, but also fosters a culture of genuine growth,
trust, and empowerment within organizations.
I think education is incredibly important. Schooling, not so much.
So knowing all this, what does this really mean?
What does this mean for us, really?
(16:59):
It means we need to reclaim the idea of education in its truest form as something that is active, liberating, and deeply personal.
It's about nurturing the love of learning in ourselves and others encouraging curiosity rather than conformity.
Each of us can play a role in this.
(17:21):
We can encourage questioning, foster curiosity, create spaces where people feel free to explore,
and and feel free to make mistakes.
We talk about psychological safety.
That's really what this is about.
Educating, drawing out that edge that curiosity, drawing out that questioning.
Even in high stakes environments, you can still be the best leaders by fostering that environment.
(17:46):
I personally think education is important and should be a daily practice for everybody.
When leaders say they don't when leaders say they need an educated workforce, I agree.
And in some instances, what people are really saying is they need a schooled workforce.
They need a technical workforce.
And for some jobs, if you're like a plant manufacturer and you own a plant manufacturing business
(18:09):
or some other thing that requires an assembly line, yes, you need a school to work for us.
You don't necessarily need an educated one.
But if you're in a law firm or in a thought leadership forum or if you're in public relations,
if you're any leadership role, you need an educated workforce.
You need people who are curious about self awareness and drawing out the best in others.
(18:33):
And that's where true education comes from.
Some of the most educated people I know have the least amount of schooling.
And that's because they dig deep into what they're passionate about and they're curious about.
And they develop themselves and they develop everyone else around them because they're drawing
out the best in everybody.
So I'm gonna leave this with you.
(18:54):
What do you think about the difference in schooling and indoctrination and education?
I don't believe that degrees equals equals education. Degrees equals indoctrination.
And if you want an indoctrinated workforce, you're going to get one if you'd look only for degrees.
Degrees, don't get me wrong. I'm not bashing them.
(19:15):
I think education is important.
I don't think a degree for a sake of degree proves anything.
So I'm going to ask you, what do you want in your organization?
Do you want free thinking people or do you want indoctrinated people? There's no wrong answer.
Let me know down below.
As always, thank you for stopping by and listening to this episode.
(19:35):
And I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with 1 or 2 people who you think would like this episode
or this topic, share it with them.
If you haven't followed or subscribed on any on the platform that you're listening to this on,
please hit all the bells, the whistles, the icons, everything else so you know when we release another episode.
(19:58):
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
spread this show with other people who might be interested in the topics, but just haven't found our show yet.
Again, thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Stainton, Staton the obvious.
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