Buckle up for an inspiring dive into what makes a leader truly exceptional! In this episode, Philippe Johnson and Tim unpack the must-have qualities that define ethical, impactful leadership. From humility that sparks respect and openness, to empathy that boosts team morale and problem-solving, they explore how character traits like courage, honesty, and selflessness shape leaders who put duty first. No fluff here—just real talk about why integrity is non-negotiable and how it drives trust, retention, and even the bottom line.
They also break down the core skills every leader needs: mastering your role, serving your team, seeking wise counsel, and communicating with crystal-clear consistency. Plus, they tackle the stakes—when leadership lacks principle, it risks morale, mission success, and even national trust. Titled What Hangs in the Balance, this episode is a wake-up call to reject shortcuts and embrace leadership rooted in ethics and competence.
Connect with the Hosts:
- Philippe Johnson: www.philippejohnson.com
- Tim:
- Website: timstatingtheobvious.com
- Facebook: facebook.com/timstatingtheobvious
- YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCHfDcITKUdniO8R3RP0lvdw
- Instagram: @TimStating
- TikTok: @timstatingtheobvious
Why Listen? If you’re passionate about leadership that lifts others up, this episode is your blueprint for building trust, driving results, and making a difference. Tune in for stories, insights, and a call to lead with moral courage!
#LeadershipQualities #EthicalLeadership #ServantLeadership #IntegrityMatters #CharacterCounts #LeadershipPodcast #MoralCourage #SelflessService
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Staton (00:00):
Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
I'm really excited to introduce our next guest, which is Philip Johnson.
He is a retired United States Air Force officer and advocate for principled and ethical leadership in public service.
The son of a language teacher and a career United States army officer, he was raised in the
United States, France, and Germany.
During his 24 years on active duty, Lt. Col.
(00:22):
Johnson served as a fixed and rotary wing pilot, intelligence officer, and diplomat or a military
attache and was honored with the Defense Meritory Service Medal, the Meritorious Service Medal
with two Oak leaf clusters, and the Air Medal with one Oak leaf cluster.
He also served on the staffs of two Air Force major commands on his final two assignments.
(00:43):
Philip received a bachelor's degree in Political Science from the University of Florida and
earned his master's degree in Public policy from the University of Maryland School of Public Policy.
You can find philip@www.philipjohnson.com and I think it's important to always talk to people
that you agree with and also people that you don't agree with.
(01:04):
When I originally came into contact with Philip, I didn't necessarily agree with the subject
of his book, meaning who he wrote the book about.
However, I do agree with a lot of the principles contained in his book.
So this just goes to show you that you can have a good, candid conversation with somebody who
you won't necessarily agree with.
(01:26):
But as long as you seek to find common understanding and common ground, then everything else is okay.
So with that in mind, let's jump right into the conversation that we had with Philip.
This is Tim Staton with Tim, stating the obvious.
What is this podcast about? It's simple.
(01:46):
You are entitled to great leadership.
Tim (01:48):
Everywhere you go, whether it's to church.
Tim Staton (01:51):
Whether it's to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into everyday, relatable and usable advice.
Disclaimer (02:03):
And a quick disclaimer. The show process or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer, otherwise
does not necessarily constitute and reply the endorsement of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show, are my own expressed, and do not necessarily state
or reflect those of any employer.
Tim (02:13):
So. Hey, Philip, welcome to the show.
Philip Johnson (02:15):
Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Tim (02:16):
Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad you could be here.
It's nice and sunny up here in the Northeast today, so not, not a gloomy day.
And I know that earlier when we had talked, we had talked about, you know, how important it
is to have ethical leaders of character.
So my first question is what are the essential character traits and competencies all leaders
(02:36):
need to exhibit to most effectively do their jobs?
Philip Johnson (02:39):
Yeah, I'd say the essential character traits include humility, empathy, discipline and self
control, Honesty, decency, reliability, selflessness and finally courage.
And if you want, I can get into why I think those matter before I touch on the second part of your question. The competencies.
Tim (03:05):
Yeah, let's go ahead and go into those.
Like why are those so important? Why do they matter?
Philip Johnson (03:09):
Yeah, so you know, humility is important both in the public sector and private sector.
But with respect to public service, it allows for a respectful approach to the constitution
along with organizational core values.
And humility also promotes the preservation of those.
(03:29):
It's also important for respecting rules and ethical considerations.
It allows leaders to admit what they don't know and to remain open to different points of view
as well as to change course when things aren't going well.
Humility is important with respect to diplomacy as it helps to build trusts.
(03:50):
It's also encourages accountability and transparency when we make mistakes.
And it's needed for self awareness allows us to examine our strengths and weaknesses.
And finally, humility keeps us from not demanding that to which we are not entitled.
Tim (04:09):
That's a great point.
Philip Johnson (04:11):
Regarding empathy. The ability to understand the perspective of others is, is one of the key
competencies that separates those who succeed and those who fail in senior management leadership positions.
I specifically cite some research on that in the book.
(04:32):
Leaders who practice empathy positively influence the mental health and output of their workers.
They tend to retain talent and they increase cooperation between individuals and also promote
more effective problem solving within teams.
With respect to discipline and self control.
I mean those are needed for many reasons to include not engaging in self serving abuses of power
(04:57):
that can compromise organizations and their missions.
Honesty is of course crucial for building trust in any organization in a more general or national context.
I like to paraphrase or quote professor Timothy Snyder on this, who's also an author.
He said something to the effect of when we abandon facts, we abandon freedom.
(05:20):
Because if nothing is true, then no one can criticize power.
And he would also say that without truth there's no trust.
And when people don't believe in truth, they fall back on belief.
The bottom line is without facts and truth, you, you can't have the rule of law. See what else?
Decency and respect for dignity is very important because it serves as a barrier against atrocity and cruelty.
(05:43):
That's a little more general versus what you might find in a Typical organization, but it makes
it harder for us to mistreat each other.
The ability to show respect is another key trait that separates those who succeed and those
who fail in senior management leadership positions.
Regarding reliability, it's important in public service with respect to securing the trust of
(06:08):
of customers, stakeholders, and even allies and adversaries when it comes to communicating intentions
abiding by the terms of agreements or signed treaties.
And the same goes for the private sector, of course.
Last two, I think I mentioned selflessness.
That matters because public service is fundamentally about serving the country and its people
(06:30):
in lieu of your own narrowly defined interests.
It's about putting service before self.
And you know, there's sacrifice that occasionally comes with that ethos.
Selflessness is really the antithesis of the pursuit of self interest that often leads to abuses
of power and the exploitation of people and institutions.
(06:52):
It's about putting duty and principle at the forefront of decision making in lieu of self interest.
And regarding those in elected office, I like to say that service before self regulates the
instinct for self preservation that can falsely equate personal interests with the public interest.
(07:12):
And finally, courage is necessary if one is to be a selfless leader because standing for what's
right often results in pushback, if not persecution.
I think some of the important competencies that I think all leaders need are having a thorough
understanding of their roles and their organizations.
(07:35):
And that also includes understanding what your people do.
They need to know how to serve and develop their people.
They need to know how to seek counsel and expertise and how to evaluate that information for sound decision making.
You need to be a good communicator, which means communicating with clarity and context and with
(07:56):
consistency in order to build trust.
Accountability, maybe not exactly a competency, but it's good.
Leaders need to hold themselves and others accountable. You know, they take.
They need to take responsibility for their failures and pass those lessons on to their subordinates.
(08:17):
And finally, I would say good leaders, you know, don't make promises they can't keep and they avoid conflicts of interest.
Importantly, they understand and operate within the limits of their authorities.
Tim (08:30):
Let's kind of talk about all of that real quick in another way because that's a lot to unpack there.
So you mentioned humility, empathy, discipline, honesty, courage, reliability, and servant leadership. Right.
So with those characteristic traits of a leader and probably any organization that you're in,
(08:53):
and I know you're talking about this from like a public servant point of view, which I think
is aptly applicable to today, in your opinion, which one of those, if you were to Narrow it
down to three that someone should work on.
What are the three traits that'd be like, you know what if you were to try to improve any one of those?
(09:15):
These three would set you apart from everybody else.
Philip Johnson (09:19):
I would like to think that most people are honest and decent and so making that assumption,
I would say probably humility, empathy and selflessness.
And by selflessness, again, I think the focus there is that duty and principle are at the forefront
(09:44):
of decision making instead of self interest.
And that can be difficult at times, especially if you're at odds with a superior who's acting unethically, for example.
But yeah, so I would say the big three, probably they're humility, empathy and selflessness.
Tim (10:03):
So let's unpack the selflessness when it comes to avoiding self serving behaviors. Right.
So sometimes leaders think that they're making the best, best decision for the organization
writ large because their values are in line with the organization's values and vice versa.
(10:24):
And if you're not in line, then that's easily detectable and it kind of stands out like a sore thumb.
So how do we prevent ourselves from being misaligned with our personal values and goals versus others?
Philip Johnson (10:37):
Well, yeah, so I would say what you were just saying about values is one, making sure you understand
the core values and principles of your organization and also very well understanding the mission of your organization.
And that, you know, every leader is going to have a leader above them.
And so you want to understand the intent of people above you as well.
(11:03):
So that's one way to do it.
And just understanding the needs of the people that your organization is serving.
Tim (11:12):
That's a great point. So why should we care so much that our leaders have good character or great character integrity?
Philip Johnson (11:19):
Well, I think you can't be an effective leader if you lack character and integrity.
Because character, integrity are fundamental aspects of good leadership.
I mean, to some extent, to a large extent, setting the example and acting ethically is your job as a leader.
You know, people with ethical issues will invariably violate trust and abuse power no matter
(11:40):
how well you, you think they may be doing in some other capacity.
And when we say maybe somebody's doing a good job, but they're unethical, maybe we're talking
about managers or people who perform a particular task, but not, I wouldn't say leaders, you
know, so a leader who lacks humility, empathy and respect for dignity, that person's not going
to get the most out of their people.
(12:01):
And employees who respect themselves won't stay in a toxic work environment and won't want to
work for people who disrespect their subordinates and engage in retaliation, for example.
Likewise, a leader who breaks promises, engages in deception, and put self interest ahead of
the organization's interests, as you mentioned, or will diminish trust from within the organization,
(12:23):
not to mention from customers and stakeholders.
And finally, I would say organizations mired in ethical conflicts will not achieve their potentials.
Tim (12:32):
Unpack that a little bit because you said a lot again, in a short period of time.
So when we talk about character, right, and why character and why people should care care about
that, and we talk about how it impacts the bottom line and also how it impacts the customers.
Let's talk about can I have two things be mutually exclusive?
(12:54):
Can I have, okay, integrity, but overall, 99% good character and other attributes.
Integrity is incredibly important, I think, into anybody's character.
But if a person lacks integrity, that's only one portion of your character.
So if I have 99% other good characteristic traits but lack integrity, do you think that can
(13:17):
happen or are they mutually exclusive?
Philip Johnson (13:19):
Oh, I see what you're saying.
You know, I haven't actually given that a lot of thought.
You know, I see integrity as faithful adherence to your beliefs.
And ideally for anybody in public service or even in the private sector, to some extent that
means faithful adherence to the core values and principle of the organization.
(13:43):
So if you're, if you're.
Now you're saying you have good character, I think the lack of integrity is still going to interfere
with doing the right thing when push comes to shove.
Tim (14:01):
So when we talk about doing the right thing, where does that come from?
So if I'm a person and I'm, and I'm developing my leadership style and I want to go into public service, do I.
Is doing the right thing just strictly adherence with the rule of law, or is it something else that goes into that?
Philip Johnson (14:22):
Oh, yeah, it goes beyond the rule of law and beyond just regulations.
It, you know, it goes into things like not engaging in undue influence, which can range.
The spectrum of undue influence, as I discuss it, is anywhere from micromanagement, which is
(14:42):
more benign, to undue influence that may rise to the level of criminal influence or abuse of authority.
So in between, that is probably more where I would answer your question, which is things like
prejudicial or preferential treatment, or as you may recall, or if you've heard it in the military,
(15:04):
you know, different, different Spanx for different ranks.
That's where you may think you're a good person and doing the right thing.
But you know, you, for various reasons, personal weaknesses, whatever you may, you may not always
exhibit the integrity that you should.
Tim (15:27):
No, that's a great, that's a great thing because just because you are in a different position,
you know, are you held to a higher standard or are you held to a lesser standard, the higher
up in seniority or influence or impact on people.
Do you have, what do you think about that one?
Philip Johnson (15:43):
Yeah, oh, absolutely. Especially in the military, as you know, I mean, somebody in a senior
command position has incredible influence over the lives, the careers of people even, even with
respect to matters pertaining to military justice.
So yeah, obviously these, these character traits and the need to have integrity become more
(16:09):
important as you, as you become more senior, which is one reason that ethics training should
not be distinct from leadership training.
It should be a core part of leadership training that starts very early on. Right.
Essentially when somebody's starting their leadership training or their career and then becomes
(16:32):
more sophisticated has become what one becomes more senior.
So it's absolutely the fact that we should hold people in more senior positions to a higher standard.
And for that reason it's even more disturbing when we see people in very senior positions not
acting ethically and then more importantly not being held accountable because people see that
(16:56):
subordinates are going to see that and that's not good for good order and morale. It's not. Good. Yeah.
It's not good for mission accomplishment.
Tim (17:07):
Absolutely. So you mentioned earlier about understanding your role in a leadership position
and understanding what the people subordinate to you do.
So can you tell us why it's important that leaders seek to surround themselves with one good
counsel and experts in areas in which they lack or have specialized knowledge in and why they
(17:28):
need to understand all of those roles?
Philip Johnson (17:30):
Yeah. So as implied in your question regarding the knowledge that they lack, no matter how well
informed you are, it's unlikely that you'll possess all of the institutional knowledge needed
to make sound ethical and even lawful decisions?
This is especially true for junior leaders and just as much so as decision making grows in complexity
(17:55):
as one becomes more senior.
Furthermore, leaders need to make better decisions when they receive input there.
They tend to make better decisions, I think, when they receive input from a diverse range of stakeholders.
So having good advisors also helps us to remain connected to what is objectively true.
(18:16):
I would also say they have good advisors and subject matter matter experts who are willing to speak the truth.
Willing to speak truth to power is especially important for leaders who are more susceptible
to, to what I consider to be the barriers to receiving, evaluating and accepting advice and,
(18:39):
and those barriers include self interest, arrogance, and inability to suppress personal bias.
And leaders also need to.
Need people to challenge their preconceived notions.
Tim (18:53):
No, absolutely. So how do we avoid surrounding ourselves with people who only say yes to us?
And I don't know if you've experienced this, but, you know, I have experienced that some senior
leaders surround themselves with people that help them be successful.
And as they move up, they grab those folks that are subordinate to them and mentor them and
bring them up with them and include them as part of their inner circle.
(19:16):
And so part of the senior leader success is tied directly to the junior leader success.
And they bring him up and then they create this inner circle where everyone's like, well, I
need this guy to get promoted because I'm going to get promoted.
He's going to take care of me, I'm going to take care of him.
But then we also develop this group think where we always get to. Yes.
And we don't necessarily tell the boss the truth.
(19:37):
I'm kind of thinking of the McChrystal situation in Afghanistan where he was talking to the
rocks, our, you know, Rolling Stones magazine, and he got himself into some trouble and then,
you know, he then retired later on.
But how do we prevent that type of mentality of only surrounding ourselves with people that say yes?
Philip Johnson (19:56):
Yeah, it reminds me of something I read about.
Nelson Mandela was, was more suspicious of people who always agreed with him than the people
who, who regularly disagreed with him when he was seeking advice.
So a part of that is, I think, strength of character of the leader who is not afraid to hear
(20:19):
things with which he may disagree.
To hear different points of view. Yeah, you're, you're.
What you mentioned reminds me of something that I experienced the first time I worked for a,
directly for, for a FLAG officer.
During my first feedback session, I, I was expecting him to want me to talk about the job I
(20:43):
was going to be doing for him.
And it seemed like the main point of conversation from his perspective was, what can I do for you?
And I guess I was a little naive about the dynamic you were just describing there because I'm
like, yeah, I, I don't know.
I haven't thought about that.
You know, I'm, you know, I'm here to focus in this job on what I can do for, for you with respect to my job.
(21:05):
But so one way I would answer that question is to say that you, and this is, this is something
we see right now, I think, in the federal government quite a bit is an emphasis on loyalty over competence.
If people I mean, to some extent, you know, especially in government, in the political environment,
(21:29):
people need to be aligned with perhaps the views or ideology of their boss to some extent.
But when you, when you focus on, on loyalty over competence, that's, that's a recipe for, for,
like you said, not getting the information you need, not getting objective feedback, and that's,
(21:55):
that's a bad thing, especially when the stakes are high.
Tim (21:59):
Completely agree. So what modern day leaders best exemplify the ideal characteristics that we
kind of talk about in terms of leadership and what makes them really good examples?
Philip Johnson (22:09):
A few people come to mind, and actually they're late leaders, if you will, no longer with us,
but the late congressman and civil rights leader John Lewis and also Alexei Navalny come to mind.
I think both were good communicators and they were principled and courageously selfless.
(22:34):
Two former members of Congress that also come to mind are Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger.
And the reason I would highlight them is I think they were patriotic, principled, they believed
in accountability, and their actions were also courageously selfless.
Equality that unfortunately seems to be lacking in most of our current elected leaders.
(22:57):
When they took a principal stand for what they believed, for example, when they volunteered
to serve on the committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol, they knew that
was going to be potentially detrimental personally and professionally for them, but they did it anyway. So otherwise there's nobody.
(23:22):
I immediately put on a pedestal when it comes to people that are currently in leadership.
But you can take good things from different good examples from different people with respect to different character traits.
Tim (23:38):
All right, you wrote your book called what Hangs in the the Case for Principled, Ethical, Competent and Courageously Selfless Leadership.
So what gave you the idea and the motivation to write that book?
Philip Johnson (23:50):
Yeah, so you would probably agree, I think we have a fine tradition of public leadership training
in this country, in my experience anyway, especially in the military.
Based on my 24 years of leadership training and experience and having worked with exceptional
senior leaders, both military and State Department leaders, it was clear to me that President
(24:11):
Trump's leadership was an aberration in both style and substance in his first term across a
wide range of leadership traits and competencies.
And I just feel strongly that.
I felt strongly still do that we can't afford to normalize much of what we saw in terms of his leadership.
And so, yeah, actually, as Kellyanne Conway once said, Trump needs to tweet like we need to eat.
(24:36):
So on New Year's Day 2019, I woke up and decided I would start the Research for this book by
reading all of his, his presidential tweets, you know, starting with Inauguration Day 2017 and
moving forward, that, that ended up being over 25,000 tweets and retweets.
But those tweets informed the dozens of leadership traits and competencies that I eventually
(24:57):
chose to address in the book in the context of, of Trump's first term.
And of course, there was much more research that went into evaluating in a leadership context,
the words and actions from that first term.
Tim (25:10):
You know, your career as a, as an, as an officer in the military gives you a unique perspective
on the subject of leadership.
You and I both have probably more leadership training than most of the people do, just by nature of our jobs.
So what critical lessons have you learned as part of the Air Force Command and how did those lessons inform this book?
Philip Johnson (25:30):
There are so many individual little things that happened, you know, both my mistakes and things
I observed from other leaders.
But I think I can actually give you a short answer to that, that question, because I think I
can summarize my experience in the Air Force by mentioning the Air Force core values, which
are integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do.
(25:53):
So those three things to me speak to leadership that is principled, selfless, and competent.
And those qualities and competencies were the backbone of the leadership training I received
and what I practiced and experienced during my 24 years on active duty.
Tim (26:09):
So with those various backgrounds and assignments, how much of those actually kind of tipped
into the political realm versus the straight operational realm?
Philip Johnson (26:19):
I think, yeah, I think most of my, my assignments were, were mostly in the operational realm.
When I worked as a, as a military attache at the US Embassy in Manila for four years, there
might have been more of a political component there, but even then I was dealing mostly with
the, the host nation military.
(26:40):
And you know, I wasn't involved in the, the, the more high level or political considerations
that the, the ambassador had to deal with every day.
So I, I would say that, yeah, I don't think little considerations played much of a part in the
experience that informed my, my views on leadership.
Tim (27:02):
Okay, and so you've brought up some really good points from the time that we have humility,
empathy, discipline, honesty, courageous, selfless, service, servant leadership, seeking understanding
and the things that we do and understanding the roles of the folks that we work with.
And I always offer up the last word to, to my guests.
Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you have a burning desire to be like, you know
(27:26):
what, I really need to talk about this One thing.
So with that, you have the last word.
Philip Johnson (27:30):
Yeah. I'll take this opportunity just to mention, to speak just for a minute about the title
of the book, what Hangs in the Balance. What?
That to me, you know, what hangs in the balance is another way of saying what's at risk.
What's at risk when we don't have principled, ethical, competent and selfless leadership.
And so at the organizational level, it's things like morale, retention, the ability to recruit,
(27:58):
and ultimately, and most importantly, what's at risk is mission accomplishment.
From a more macro or national perspective, what hangs in the balance when you don't have good
leadership are things like quality of life and occasionally life itself, in addition to good
governance, trust in democratic institutions, national security, and even the rule of law.
(28:22):
So there's just too much at stake.
And that's why I feel strongly that we can't normalize leadership that isn't principled, ethical, competent and selfless.
Tim (28:34):
No. Thank you for those, those last words there.
And for everyone listening to this, in the description down below this episode, you'll be able
to find the link to his book, what Hangs in the Balance and his website and how to get a hold of him.
So he's got a lot of knowledge about this subject.
And I know we, we would originally talked, and you had talked about how you had to, you know,
(28:55):
cut out chapters of the book because it was just so long.
But it's a, it's a great read for anyone who wants to take a look at President Trump's last
time in office and his take on it.
And with that, Philip, I really, really appreciate you being on the show and talking with us today.
Philip Johnson (29:12):
Oh, it's great to be with you.
Thanks so much for having me.
Tim Staton (29:14):
As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode, you'll be alerted.
(29:37):
Please go ahead and do all that before you go.
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
here today, but may not have found our show yet again. Thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Staten, State of the.
Hey, and welcome back to another episode.
I'm really excited to introduce our next guest, which is Philip Johnson.
He is a retired United States Air Force officer and advocate for principled and ethical leadership in public service.
The son of a language teacher and a career United States army officer, he was raised in the
United States, France, and Germany.
During his 24 years on active duty, Lt. Col.
(00:22):
Johnson served as a fixed and rotary wing pilot, intelligence officer, and diplomat or a military
attache and was honored with the Defense Meritory Service Medal, the Meritorious Service Medal
with two Oak leaf clusters, and the Air Medal with one Oak leaf cluster.
He also served on the staffs of two Air Force major commands on his final two assignments.
(00:43):
Philip received a bachelor's degree in Political Science from the University of Florida and
earned his master's degree in Public policy from the University of Maryland School of Public Policy.
You can find philip@www.philipjohnson.com and I think it's important to always talk to people
that you agree with and also people that you don't agree with.
(01:04):
When I originally came into contact with Philip, I didn't necessarily agree with the subject
of his book, meaning who he wrote the book about.
However, I do agree with a lot of the principles contained in his book.
So this just goes to show you that you can have a good, candid conversation with somebody who
you won't necessarily agree with.
(01:26):
But as long as you seek to find common understanding and common ground, then everything else is okay.
So with that in mind, let's jump right into the conversation that we had with Philip.
This is Tim Staton with Tim, stating the obvious.
What is this podcast about? It's simple.
(01:46):
You are entitled to great leadership.
Tim (01:48):
Everywhere you go, whether it's to church.
Tim Staton (01:51):
Whether it's to work, whether it's at your house, you are entitled to great leadership.
And so in this podcast, we take leadership principles and theories and turn them into everyday, relatable and usable advice.
Disclaimer (02:03):
And a quick disclaimer. The show process or service by trademark, trademark manufacturer, otherwise
does not necessarily constitute and reply the endorsement of anyone that I employed by or favors them in representation.
The views are expressed here in my show, are my own expressed, and do not necessarily state
or reflect those of any employer.
Tim (02:13):
So. Hey, Philip, welcome to the show.
Philip Johnson (02:15):
Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Tim (02:16):
Yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad you could be here.
It's nice and sunny up here in the Northeast today, so not, not a gloomy day.
And I know that earlier when we had talked, we had talked about, you know, how important it
is to have ethical leaders of character.
So my first question is what are the essential character traits and competencies all leaders
(02:36):
need to exhibit to most effectively do their jobs?
Philip Johnson (02:39):
Yeah, I'd say the essential character traits include humility, empathy, discipline and self
control, Honesty, decency, reliability, selflessness and finally courage.
And if you want, I can get into why I think those matter before I touch on the second part of your question. The competencies.
Tim (03:05):
Yeah, let's go ahead and go into those.
Like why are those so important? Why do they matter?
Philip Johnson (03:09):
Yeah, so you know, humility is important both in the public sector and private sector.
But with respect to public service, it allows for a respectful approach to the constitution
along with organizational core values.
And humility also promotes the preservation of those.
(03:29):
It's also important for respecting rules and ethical considerations.
It allows leaders to admit what they don't know and to remain open to different points of view
as well as to change course when things aren't going well.
Humility is important with respect to diplomacy as it helps to build trusts.
(03:50):
It's also encourages accountability and transparency when we make mistakes.
And it's needed for self awareness allows us to examine our strengths and weaknesses.
And finally, humility keeps us from not demanding that to which we are not entitled.
Tim (04:09):
That's a great point.
Philip Johnson (04:11):
Regarding empathy. The ability to understand the perspective of others is, is one of the key
competencies that separates those who succeed and those who fail in senior management leadership positions.
I specifically cite some research on that in the book.
(04:32):
Leaders who practice empathy positively influence the mental health and output of their workers.
They tend to retain talent and they increase cooperation between individuals and also promote
more effective problem solving within teams.
With respect to discipline and self control.
I mean those are needed for many reasons to include not engaging in self serving abuses of power
(04:57):
that can compromise organizations and their missions.
Honesty is of course crucial for building trust in any organization in a more general or national context.
I like to paraphrase or quote professor Timothy Snyder on this, who's also an author.
He said something to the effect of when we abandon facts, we abandon freedom.
(05:20):
Because if nothing is true, then no one can criticize power.
And he would also say that without truth there's no trust.
And when people don't believe in truth, they fall back on belief.
The bottom line is without facts and truth, you, you can't have the rule of law. See what else?
Decency and respect for dignity is very important because it serves as a barrier against atrocity and cruelty.
(05:43):
That's a little more general versus what you might find in a Typical organization, but it makes
it harder for us to mistreat each other.
The ability to show respect is another key trait that separates those who succeed and those
who fail in senior management leadership positions.
Regarding reliability, it's important in public service with respect to securing the trust of
(06:08):
of customers, stakeholders, and even allies and adversaries when it comes to communicating intentions
abiding by the terms of agreements or signed treaties.
And the same goes for the private sector, of course.
Last two, I think I mentioned selflessness.
That matters because public service is fundamentally about serving the country and its people
(06:30):
in lieu of your own narrowly defined interests.
It's about putting service before self.
And you know, there's sacrifice that occasionally comes with that ethos.
Selflessness is really the antithesis of the pursuit of self interest that often leads to abuses
of power and the exploitation of people and institutions.
(06:52):
It's about putting duty and principle at the forefront of decision making in lieu of self interest.
And regarding those in elected office, I like to say that service before self regulates the
instinct for self preservation that can falsely equate personal interests with the public interest.
(07:12):
And finally, courage is necessary if one is to be a selfless leader because standing for what's
right often results in pushback, if not persecution.
I think some of the important competencies that I think all leaders need are having a thorough
understanding of their roles and their organizations.
(07:35):
And that also includes understanding what your people do.
They need to know how to serve and develop their people.
They need to know how to seek counsel and expertise and how to evaluate that information for sound decision making.
You need to be a good communicator, which means communicating with clarity and context and with
(07:56):
consistency in order to build trust.
Accountability, maybe not exactly a competency, but it's good.
Leaders need to hold themselves and others accountable. You know, they take.
They need to take responsibility for their failures and pass those lessons on to their subordinates.
(08:17):
And finally, I would say good leaders, you know, don't make promises they can't keep and they avoid conflicts of interest.
Importantly, they understand and operate within the limits of their authorities.
Tim (08:30):
Let's kind of talk about all of that real quick in another way because that's a lot to unpack there.
So you mentioned humility, empathy, discipline, honesty, courage, reliability, and servant leadership. Right.
So with those characteristic traits of a leader and probably any organization that you're in,
(08:53):
and I know you're talking about this from like a public servant point of view, which I think
is aptly applicable to today, in your opinion, which one of those, if you were to Narrow it
down to three that someone should work on.
What are the three traits that'd be like, you know what if you were to try to improve any one of those?
(09:15):
These three would set you apart from everybody else.
Philip Johnson (09:19):
I would like to think that most people are honest and decent and so making that assumption,
I would say probably humility, empathy and selflessness.
And by selflessness, again, I think the focus there is that duty and principle are at the forefront
(09:44):
of decision making instead of self interest.
And that can be difficult at times, especially if you're at odds with a superior who's acting unethically, for example.
But yeah, so I would say the big three, probably they're humility, empathy and selflessness.
Tim (10:03):
So let's unpack the selflessness when it comes to avoiding self serving behaviors. Right.
So sometimes leaders think that they're making the best, best decision for the organization
writ large because their values are in line with the organization's values and vice versa.
(10:24):
And if you're not in line, then that's easily detectable and it kind of stands out like a sore thumb.
So how do we prevent ourselves from being misaligned with our personal values and goals versus others?
Philip Johnson (10:37):
Well, yeah, so I would say what you were just saying about values is one, making sure you understand
the core values and principles of your organization and also very well understanding the mission of your organization.
And that, you know, every leader is going to have a leader above them.
And so you want to understand the intent of people above you as well.
(11:03):
So that's one way to do it.
And just understanding the needs of the people that your organization is serving.
Tim (11:12):
That's a great point. So why should we care so much that our leaders have good character or great character integrity?
Philip Johnson (11:19):
Well, I think you can't be an effective leader if you lack character and integrity.
Because character, integrity are fundamental aspects of good leadership.
I mean, to some extent, to a large extent, setting the example and acting ethically is your job as a leader.
You know, people with ethical issues will invariably violate trust and abuse power no matter
(11:40):
how well you, you think they may be doing in some other capacity.
And when we say maybe somebody's doing a good job, but they're unethical, maybe we're talking
about managers or people who perform a particular task, but not, I wouldn't say leaders, you
know, so a leader who lacks humility, empathy and respect for dignity, that person's not going
to get the most out of their people.
(12:01):
And employees who respect themselves won't stay in a toxic work environment and won't want to
work for people who disrespect their subordinates and engage in retaliation, for example.
Likewise, a leader who breaks promises, engages in deception, and put self interest ahead of
the organization's interests, as you mentioned, or will diminish trust from within the organization,
(12:23):
not to mention from customers and stakeholders.
And finally, I would say organizations mired in ethical conflicts will not achieve their potentials.
Tim (12:32):
Unpack that a little bit because you said a lot again, in a short period of time.
So when we talk about character, right, and why character and why people should care care about
that, and we talk about how it impacts the bottom line and also how it impacts the customers.
Let's talk about can I have two things be mutually exclusive?
(12:54):
Can I have, okay, integrity, but overall, 99% good character and other attributes.
Integrity is incredibly important, I think, into anybody's character.
But if a person lacks integrity, that's only one portion of your character.
So if I have 99% other good characteristic traits but lack integrity, do you think that can
(13:17):
happen or are they mutually exclusive?
Philip Johnson (13:19):
Oh, I see what you're saying.
You know, I haven't actually given that a lot of thought.
You know, I see integrity as faithful adherence to your beliefs.
And ideally for anybody in public service or even in the private sector, to some extent that
means faithful adherence to the core values and principle of the organization.
(13:43):
So if you're, if you're.
Now you're saying you have good character, I think the lack of integrity is still going to interfere
with doing the right thing when push comes to shove.
Tim (14:01):
So when we talk about doing the right thing, where does that come from?
So if I'm a person and I'm, and I'm developing my leadership style and I want to go into public service, do I.
Is doing the right thing just strictly adherence with the rule of law, or is it something else that goes into that?
Philip Johnson (14:22):
Oh, yeah, it goes beyond the rule of law and beyond just regulations.
It, you know, it goes into things like not engaging in undue influence, which can range.
The spectrum of undue influence, as I discuss it, is anywhere from micromanagement, which is
(14:42):
more benign, to undue influence that may rise to the level of criminal influence or abuse of authority.
So in between, that is probably more where I would answer your question, which is things like
prejudicial or preferential treatment, or as you may recall, or if you've heard it in the military,
(15:04):
you know, different, different Spanx for different ranks.
That's where you may think you're a good person and doing the right thing.
But you know, you, for various reasons, personal weaknesses, whatever you may, you may not always
exhibit the integrity that you should.
Tim (15:27):
No, that's a great, that's a great thing because just because you are in a different position,
you know, are you held to a higher standard or are you held to a lesser standard, the higher
up in seniority or influence or impact on people.
Do you have, what do you think about that one?
Philip Johnson (15:43):
Yeah, oh, absolutely. Especially in the military, as you know, I mean, somebody in a senior
command position has incredible influence over the lives, the careers of people even, even with
respect to matters pertaining to military justice.
So yeah, obviously these, these character traits and the need to have integrity become more
(16:09):
important as you, as you become more senior, which is one reason that ethics training should
not be distinct from leadership training.
It should be a core part of leadership training that starts very early on. Right.
Essentially when somebody's starting their leadership training or their career and then becomes
(16:32):
more sophisticated has become what one becomes more senior.
So it's absolutely the fact that we should hold people in more senior positions to a higher standard.
And for that reason it's even more disturbing when we see people in very senior positions not
acting ethically and then more importantly not being held accountable because people see that
(16:56):
subordinates are going to see that and that's not good for good order and morale. It's not. Good. Yeah.
It's not good for mission accomplishment.
Tim (17:07):
Absolutely. So you mentioned earlier about understanding your role in a leadership position
and understanding what the people subordinate to you do.
So can you tell us why it's important that leaders seek to surround themselves with one good
counsel and experts in areas in which they lack or have specialized knowledge in and why they
(17:28):
need to understand all of those roles?
Philip Johnson (17:30):
Yeah. So as implied in your question regarding the knowledge that they lack, no matter how well
informed you are, it's unlikely that you'll possess all of the institutional knowledge needed
to make sound ethical and even lawful decisions?
This is especially true for junior leaders and just as much so as decision making grows in complexity
(17:55):
as one becomes more senior.
Furthermore, leaders need to make better decisions when they receive input there.
They tend to make better decisions, I think, when they receive input from a diverse range of stakeholders.
So having good advisors also helps us to remain connected to what is objectively true.
(18:16):
I would also say they have good advisors and subject matter matter experts who are willing to speak the truth.
Willing to speak truth to power is especially important for leaders who are more susceptible
to, to what I consider to be the barriers to receiving, evaluating and accepting advice and,
(18:39):
and those barriers include self interest, arrogance, and inability to suppress personal bias.
And leaders also need to.
Need people to challenge their preconceived notions.
Tim (18:53):
No, absolutely. So how do we avoid surrounding ourselves with people who only say yes to us?
And I don't know if you've experienced this, but, you know, I have experienced that some senior
leaders surround themselves with people that help them be successful.
And as they move up, they grab those folks that are subordinate to them and mentor them and
bring them up with them and include them as part of their inner circle.
(19:16):
And so part of the senior leader success is tied directly to the junior leader success.
And they bring him up and then they create this inner circle where everyone's like, well, I
need this guy to get promoted because I'm going to get promoted.
He's going to take care of me, I'm going to take care of him.
But then we also develop this group think where we always get to. Yes.
And we don't necessarily tell the boss the truth.
(19:37):
I'm kind of thinking of the McChrystal situation in Afghanistan where he was talking to the
rocks, our, you know, Rolling Stones magazine, and he got himself into some trouble and then,
you know, he then retired later on.
But how do we prevent that type of mentality of only surrounding ourselves with people that say yes?
Philip Johnson (19:56):
Yeah, it reminds me of something I read about.
Nelson Mandela was, was more suspicious of people who always agreed with him than the people
who, who regularly disagreed with him when he was seeking advice.
So a part of that is, I think, strength of character of the leader who is not afraid to hear
(20:19):
things with which he may disagree.
To hear different points of view. Yeah, you're, you're.
What you mentioned reminds me of something that I experienced the first time I worked for a,
directly for, for a FLAG officer.
During my first feedback session, I, I was expecting him to want me to talk about the job I
(20:43):
was going to be doing for him.
And it seemed like the main point of conversation from his perspective was, what can I do for you?
And I guess I was a little naive about the dynamic you were just describing there because I'm
like, yeah, I, I don't know.
I haven't thought about that.
You know, I'm, you know, I'm here to focus in this job on what I can do for, for you with respect to my job.
(21:05):
But so one way I would answer that question is to say that you, and this is, this is something
we see right now, I think, in the federal government quite a bit is an emphasis on loyalty over competence.
If people I mean, to some extent, you know, especially in government, in the political environment,
(21:29):
people need to be aligned with perhaps the views or ideology of their boss to some extent.
But when you, when you focus on, on loyalty over competence, that's, that's a recipe for, for,
like you said, not getting the information you need, not getting objective feedback, and that's,
(21:55):
that's a bad thing, especially when the stakes are high.
Tim (21:59):
Completely agree. So what modern day leaders best exemplify the ideal characteristics that we
kind of talk about in terms of leadership and what makes them really good examples?
Philip Johnson (22:09):
A few people come to mind, and actually they're late leaders, if you will, no longer with us,
but the late congressman and civil rights leader John Lewis and also Alexei Navalny come to mind.
I think both were good communicators and they were principled and courageously selfless.
(22:34):
Two former members of Congress that also come to mind are Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger.
And the reason I would highlight them is I think they were patriotic, principled, they believed
in accountability, and their actions were also courageously selfless.
Equality that unfortunately seems to be lacking in most of our current elected leaders.
(22:57):
When they took a principal stand for what they believed, for example, when they volunteered
to serve on the committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol, they knew that
was going to be potentially detrimental personally and professionally for them, but they did it anyway. So otherwise there's nobody.
(23:22):
I immediately put on a pedestal when it comes to people that are currently in leadership.
But you can take good things from different good examples from different people with respect to different character traits.
Tim (23:38):
All right, you wrote your book called what Hangs in the the Case for Principled, Ethical, Competent and Courageously Selfless Leadership.
So what gave you the idea and the motivation to write that book?
Philip Johnson (23:50):
Yeah, so you would probably agree, I think we have a fine tradition of public leadership training
in this country, in my experience anyway, especially in the military.
Based on my 24 years of leadership training and experience and having worked with exceptional
senior leaders, both military and State Department leaders, it was clear to me that President
(24:11):
Trump's leadership was an aberration in both style and substance in his first term across a
wide range of leadership traits and competencies.
And I just feel strongly that.
I felt strongly still do that we can't afford to normalize much of what we saw in terms of his leadership.
And so, yeah, actually, as Kellyanne Conway once said, Trump needs to tweet like we need to eat.
(24:36):
So on New Year's Day 2019, I woke up and decided I would start the Research for this book by
reading all of his, his presidential tweets, you know, starting with Inauguration Day 2017 and
moving forward, that, that ended up being over 25,000 tweets and retweets.
But those tweets informed the dozens of leadership traits and competencies that I eventually
(24:57):
chose to address in the book in the context of, of Trump's first term.
And of course, there was much more research that went into evaluating in a leadership context,
the words and actions from that first term.
Tim (25:10):
You know, your career as a, as an, as an officer in the military gives you a unique perspective
on the subject of leadership.
You and I both have probably more leadership training than most of the people do, just by nature of our jobs.
So what critical lessons have you learned as part of the Air Force Command and how did those lessons inform this book?
Philip Johnson (25:30):
There are so many individual little things that happened, you know, both my mistakes and things
I observed from other leaders.
But I think I can actually give you a short answer to that, that question, because I think I
can summarize my experience in the Air Force by mentioning the Air Force core values, which
are integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do.
(25:53):
So those three things to me speak to leadership that is principled, selfless, and competent.
And those qualities and competencies were the backbone of the leadership training I received
and what I practiced and experienced during my 24 years on active duty.
Tim (26:09):
So with those various backgrounds and assignments, how much of those actually kind of tipped
into the political realm versus the straight operational realm?
Philip Johnson (26:19):
I think, yeah, I think most of my, my assignments were, were mostly in the operational realm.
When I worked as a, as a military attache at the US Embassy in Manila for four years, there
might have been more of a political component there, but even then I was dealing mostly with
the, the host nation military.
(26:40):
And you know, I wasn't involved in the, the, the more high level or political considerations
that the, the ambassador had to deal with every day.
So I, I would say that, yeah, I don't think little considerations played much of a part in the
experience that informed my, my views on leadership.
Tim (27:02):
Okay, and so you've brought up some really good points from the time that we have humility,
empathy, discipline, honesty, courageous, selfless, service, servant leadership, seeking understanding
and the things that we do and understanding the roles of the folks that we work with.
And I always offer up the last word to, to my guests.
Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you have a burning desire to be like, you know
(27:26):
what, I really need to talk about this One thing.
So with that, you have the last word.
Philip Johnson (27:30):
Yeah. I'll take this opportunity just to mention, to speak just for a minute about the title
of the book, what Hangs in the Balance. What?
That to me, you know, what hangs in the balance is another way of saying what's at risk.
What's at risk when we don't have principled, ethical, competent and selfless leadership.
And so at the organizational level, it's things like morale, retention, the ability to recruit,
(27:58):
and ultimately, and most importantly, what's at risk is mission accomplishment.
From a more macro or national perspective, what hangs in the balance when you don't have good
leadership are things like quality of life and occasionally life itself, in addition to good
governance, trust in democratic institutions, national security, and even the rule of law.
(28:22):
So there's just too much at stake.
And that's why I feel strongly that we can't normalize leadership that isn't principled, ethical, competent and selfless.
Tim (28:34):
No. Thank you for those, those last words there.
And for everyone listening to this, in the description down below this episode, you'll be able
to find the link to his book, what Hangs in the Balance and his website and how to get a hold of him.
So he's got a lot of knowledge about this subject.
And I know we, we would originally talked, and you had talked about how you had to, you know,
(28:55):
cut out chapters of the book because it was just so long.
But it's a, it's a great read for anyone who wants to take a look at President Trump's last
time in office and his take on it.
And with that, Philip, I really, really appreciate you being on the show and talking with us today.
Philip Johnson (29:12):
Oh, it's great to be with you.
Thanks so much for having me.
Tim Staton (29:14):
As always, thank you for stopping by and checking out this episode and listening to it.
I really hope that you enjoyed it.
Before we go, I'd like to ask a favor of you if I could.
If you could please share this episode with one or two people who you think might like this topic.
If you haven't followed or subscribed on the platform that you're listening to and hit all the
bells and icons and all the whistles so that you know that when we post another episode, you'll be alerted.
(29:37):
Please go ahead and do all that before you go.
If you got some value out of this episode, please leave a review or a comment so we can help
spread the show to other people who might be interested in the topics that we've talked about
here today, but may not have found our show yet again. Thanks for stopping by.
I'm Tim Staten, State of the.
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