August 6, 2024 • 44 mins
In this episode, we dive deep into DC’s newest YA graphic novel, Bad Dream: A Dreamer Story, written by none other than Nicole Maines, the actress who brought Dreamer to life on the Supergirl TV show! We chat about Dreamer's journey from the small screen to the colorful pages of her very own comic, and how Maines continues to impress us with her storytelling prowess.
We also explore the exciting world of queer and trans representation in comics, from Dreamer's groundbreaking presence in the DC universe to her interactions with other beloved characters like Galaxy, the Prettiest Star. Plus, we share our thoughts on potential future crossovers and dream (pun intended) up some epic team-ups we'd love to see.
For those looking to avoid spoilers, our plot summary section begins at 6:54 and ends at 10:58.
So, whether you're a seasoned comic book reader or new to the world of superheroes, grab your cape and join us as we continue transcending boundaries and celebrating the vibrant world of trans, non-binary, and genderqueer representation in comics. 🎨💖
Also don't forget to check out our own first comic, When We Transform, live now on Kickstarter! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tomitrembath/when-we-transform
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:17):
Welcome to Transcending Comics, a podcast dedicated to trans representation
in comic books, manga, and webtoons, both on panel and behind the scenes.
I'm your host, Tommy, and I'm joined today by my go-to expert on all things
Supergirl and Wonder Woman, my favorite comic shop employee,
and my good friend, Kyle.
Welcome back to the show, dude. Hi, thanks for having me again.
(00:38):
Yeah, I mean, I had you on in one of our early episodes to cover Galaxy,
the Prettiest Star, the last trans superhero graphic novel put out by DC.
And since then, you've done a pretty great job keeping me in the loop on every
Dreamer appearance in the DC universe.
So now that Dreamer has her own graphic novel with the DC YA line,
(01:00):
Bad Dream, a Dreamer story, I figured I'd have you back on the show for it.
Yeah, I'm glad you invited me again. It'll be fun.
So getting right into it, I know that you were
familiar with Dreamer long before i was since
you were a big fan of the supergirl tv show so tell
us a little bit about like your association with the character like what
it was like for you seeing the first trans superhero on tv
(01:23):
like as that show was airing oh it was so cool i will admit a lot of the hype
for super was the super corp and that shipping thing and but then also a lot
of pretty much every super person on Twitter was also just super hype about
Nia and the introduction of the first trans character.
And just it was it was really cool just seeing that.
(01:46):
Now, I was only able to catch a couple of dreamer episodes in preparation for
the show, like her first appearance and the one where she comes out on television.
How long is it into her time on the show that you find out she's trans?
Like, is it during that big coming out episode on TV or does she interpersonally
oh no for them i oh god i can't remember exactly i feel like we know pretty
(02:11):
early on um god it's been so long since i've watched i can't exactly remember
but it's earlier than that for sure okay.
Now, before we get into the book, I wanted to take a second to get into the
creative team behind the book and our familiarity with both creators.
So the book is written by Nicole Maines,
(02:32):
the actress that played Dreamer in Supergirl and who seemingly has had a hand
in writing just about every appearance of the character in the DC universe as
they've started to incorporate her from being a TV only character to now being part of the greater DCU.
Yeah i think that's so cool like imagine being just
she's like nicole manes is basically the architect of this
(02:55):
character like that's hers yeah and i'm really surprised with how well this
is gone because like i did read a smattering of her other appearances in the
dc universe like the first couple suicide squad dream team issues uh some of
the event tie-ins and the dc pride
shorts and like Nicole means is really good at this.
(03:17):
Like too often when we get like some level of like movie TV or celebrity person
writing in mainstream comics, like you can tell that it's not a.
You can tell it's not coming from someone who knows how to write a comic.
And like, and that's no shame on them. Like there are a lot of great novelists
who struggle to write a good comic.
(03:39):
So like the fact that someone that's like as active as Nicole.
Doing movies tv shows activism work
like but she's also able to pull off writing really damn good
comics that were like i was genuinely impressed with
like especially the suicide squad ones i kind of
felt like dang hosha was covering these like those might
even be more fun than this and this grab novel is great
(04:02):
as well so yeah nicole manes
i think is awesome i think she's about as
close to a real life trans superhero as we get
both with playing him on tv and being like
a big activist like when she was in fifth grade she
was part of the first ever uh state supreme court
case to rule that trans students can use bathrooms aligning
(04:23):
with their gender identity so like she's been fighting
the fight since she was a kid so nicole manes is a
genuine badass yeah she really is now
this will seem off topic but uh kyle were
you a zoe 101 kid growing up a little bit
yeah okay this is going off Wikipedia here but
did you know that's allegedly where nicole manes got her name from was uh no
(04:46):
the character of like nikki or nicole oh my god i don't even remember that character
but that's amazing yeah it's like i know we've mentioned that show before just
because Cause your dog's name is Zoe.
So of course that's going to come up. I was, I'm a millennial,
so this will happen, but yeah. Okay. This is perfect.
Now, as for the art of the book, the art was done by Rye Hickman.
(05:10):
And Kyle, are you familiar at all with Rye Hickman's other work?
I probably I wouldn't be surprised if I read something with their work in it
before. But I don't remember.
Yeah. Weirdly, we just covered a piece of their work in one of our recent episodes
because they did the art on the D.C.
(05:30):
Pride celebration of Rachel Pollack. and we just
had joe carolla yeah and he wrote that so
glad i'm getting to talk about work from both creators and
uh they also did some work on gem and the holograms that
i've seen since i also had sophie campbell on the show who also did artwork
from that i know rye did a lot of the work that wasn't done by sophie and yeah
(05:52):
awesome art does its own like distinct style on an established series but does
some cool stylized stuff with it and i haven't read any of their other work,
but I do have one of their books on my radar,
Moth and Whisper, which I've heard good things about, kind of cool cyberpunk
story about a genderqueer protagonist.
(06:12):
So it's been it's something I've been meaning to look into for the show.
And yeah, I've only heard good things so far.
So hopefully I'll get around to that one in the near future.
Yeah, that does sound cool. I'm going to add that to my to read list, too.
So with our creative bases covered, shall I get into the summary of the book? Yeah, I think so.
All right. And just a heads up to the listeners. We're going to be getting a
(06:36):
little more in depth with the plot breakdown of this story just to help hit some of our main points.
So do be warned, there's going to be some spoilers ahead.
I'll try to remember to put a time marker in the show notes to tell you where
you can skip to if you want to avoid spoilers for the most part.
But be warned, spoilers ahead.
Nia Nal is a 15-year-old, half-alien transgender girl living in the hidden alien
(06:58):
refuge of Parthas on Earth.
Her mother was famous on her home planet of Naltor for being the head Seer,
a group of precognitive superheroes tasked with defending their planet.
Nia's family is sure her sister-slash-sis-turf, Maeve, will be the one to inherit
her mother's powers, as she was the only daughter in the family assigned female
at birth. Parthas is a community accepting of all aliens, as long as they fall
(07:23):
within the gender binary.
Nia is treated as a misfit among misfits, and after a bully breaks her nose
in a game of kickball, Nia's precognitive abilities awaken.
Quick side note on that, Kyle, did you catch that that's something that they
planted well ahead of time?
In that coming out episode on Supergirl, Dreamer specifically mentions that
(07:44):
on TV, of breaking her nose in a game of kickball when she's 15.
Oh i don't remember that like i said it's
been a while since i've watched the show um i mean
don't blame me for forgetting there since um i
read this first and then started researching the
show a little bit seeing our other appearances and i just thought
that was really fun that like something that small that
(08:06):
they slipped in there she tied into the book so that was
a fun callback there's definitely parts that i actually
do remember from the show that do come up in
the the book and um i think nicole did a really
good job of translating like making the story
that was in the show translate to the dc
comics world yeah be sure to shout those
(08:26):
out too because i'd be curious to know what else they were shadowed in the show
but not wanting to upset her sister nia runs away to metropolis she struggles
to escape her issues however since every time she falls asleep her nightmares
about the future return shortly after her energy manipulation powers activate
while escaping an attempted mugging,
Nia runs into a familiar face for fans of the show, Galaxy, the prettiest star.
(08:50):
Nia makes quick friends with Galaxy as a fellow trans alien.
As well as her girlfriend Kat and trans ballroom queen Yvette.
Her three new friends give Nia exactly what she needs in a situation like this,
a night out with other queer people.
They take her to Metropolis's alien haven of A-Town, also known as Gay Town.
And nia gets her first look at queer community
(09:12):
found families and ballroom culture and also
side note there i am so glad that we just got like
a general ballroom competition closer to something like pose maybe and not just
another damn drag competition like everyone else uses yeah right anyone out
there any especially straight and or cis writers that are listening to this
(09:35):
if you're writing queer characters there's more than just drag shows please
Please, please look it up.
There's other things you can depict that queer people gather around for entertainment.
Please, God, stop giving RuPaul attention.
That night, Nia's nightmares return. After Yvette calms her down from a panic
attack, Nia is approached on the rooftop by Sybil, a fellow seer from Naltor.
(09:55):
She tells Nia that her mom was a deserter that fled and abandoned the planet
of Naltor, but also promises Nia that she can help her pass her powers onto her sister, Maeve.
Nia decides to head home to confront her issues, and Galaxy,
Kat, and Yvette come along.
Nia has a brief moment of connection and understanding with her mother,
but after a disastrous confrontation with her sister, who proceeds to say some
(10:18):
textbook turfy shit, Nia passes out.
She gets some sagely advice from her mother while in the dream realm,
but their conversation is interrupted.
Sybil had followed Nia back to her home, and Nia's mom goes out to confront her.
A superhuman conflict ensues, Nia's mom is killed, Galaxy is injured,
and Nia is almost killed as well, until she discovers the power of self-acceptance
(10:39):
and defeats Sybil through the power within her.
In the epilogue, we find out that just after her mother's funeral,
Maeve ran away from home and into a story to be continued in DC Pride 2024.
Nia accepts her responsibility as a seer and becomes the superhero Dreamer and
makes a vow to find a future she can be proud of.
All right, with the summary out of the way, Kyle, tell me about your first impressions
(11:02):
after reading this book.
I know you'd been anticipating this for quite a while, just like me.
So yeah, I'd love to know what your first thoughts were. well i
really liked it of course also loved the art
and everything and uh i didn't i
i didn't know how involved galaxy would
be in this because i knew she would be at some point or
(11:22):
like in a little bit but um i'm glad i was really glad
to see that she was like a lot more and her
and cat and yvette were like they really helped nia a
lot i i like that she found such a
good support system there yeah i really
like this book's depiction of queer community and
like trans kinship like i've heard the
(11:43):
joke made that that's the problem with most trans representation in
mainstream media oh my god yes there's just one trans
character and there's never just one of us okay
no there's something about hormone replacement therapy or
just transitioning in general that makes us slightly magnetic but
only to other trans people we're all drawn together
i don't know if it's like some kind of destiny thing or what but chances are
(12:06):
if there's one trans person in your circle there's a couple more trans people
in that circle same with just like being queer in general like there's no just
one gay friend they why would they hang around a bunch of straight people like.
They're not as fun yeah we even see that like a bunch of straight aliens aren't as fun like yeah,
(12:29):
her neighbors suck and i think this makes
a really good follow-up to galaxy as
a read uh not just because we see her again here and
it's close to that same time period but uh
like galaxy is very much a book about uh self-discovery
and like finding oneself and like coming to
terms with one's own identity whereas this is one of
(12:50):
those books that starts right off the bat with the character like
knowing and being open about the fact that she's trans and
this instead then gets to focus on like
that first experience of finding uh queer
and or trans community and like just how
exciting that is the first time you go out and all
of a sudden you're not weird or like there's
(13:12):
other people like you and like there's something you
want to be part of there's found families like oh shoot
there's a world for me out there okay i don't have
to just live in a closet oh my god exactly but yeah
on galaxy's appearance i know uh when i had jadzia axelrod on the show She had
mentioned like those fears of having a character she created and put so much
(13:33):
of herself into now being in the hands of someone else because she mostly had
like creative control of galaxies of their appearances as well.
But yeah, she had said that Nicole knocked it out of the park with this.
I would agree as well. I really like how Galaxy is depicted in this,
and it just feels like a good step to fill in that gap between her own graphic
(13:56):
novel and her appearances in Hot Girl.
Yeah. I can't imagine a character that you put so much of yourself into.
DC owns Galaxy, basically, knowing that you're not going to be the one that
always gets to write her.
That would be scary to me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really curious who gets to be the
(14:17):
next person that writes Dreamer as well.
Like, oh, I'm assuming Nicole Maine is going to hold on to that as long as she can.
But like, yeah, I mean, she's like she's a real actress.
Like she's in movies and stuff like which, by the way, see that I freaking love
that great trans vampire movie.
But, you know, like eventually she's going to be too busy doing movie stuff
(14:38):
to write comics because I've heard about how time consuming comic writing is.
And like Nicole's going for it, like writing for like big event tie ins and
like surprisingly telling good stories in said tie ins, which is not an easy feat.
No. So I keep it up with a lot and coloring within the editorial lines super well.
(15:01):
So maybe if this comic thing ever takes off for me, maybe I'll be gunning for
that position. But I don't want to get in Nicole's crosshairs because like she's
one of the like number one people that I'd love to have on the show someday.
But one of these trans DC superheroes, I hope to get to carry that torch for his.
I mean, I'm going to I'm going to do indie stuff. If I make a trans hero,
(15:23):
I'm not going to let some big. Yeah, you have mine.
Yeah, I don't blame you. But I will say I think of the DC young adult graphic novels I've read so far,
I would probably call this one my favorite since I thought it had like the perfect
balance of the like very down to earth human element that these have all had.
(15:43):
Uh while also incorporating just enough
like superhero or like superheroic elements
to it because yeah like some of
the other ones like uh the beast boy graphic novel pretty strong one about like
i don't peer pressure and stuff but uh like beast boy never transforms and only
uses his powers in like the most mild way uh and some of the others are also
(16:06):
kind of like that that like Like it's not a superhero origin story.
It's more a bit of like almost like a pre-origin story of when their powers
are like when the person they're going to become starts to trickle in an early life.
And like Galaxy, like I think the book is better for it, but like Galaxy doesn't
have any kind of superhero fight to it here.
(16:27):
Like it's not a big part of the book. It's not meant to be an action book,
but it does give us that like big climax and the mentor figure passes away and
Dark Phoenix moment, all that.
So like it feels like more of a well-rounded superhero comic,
just with a much bigger focus on those human elements.
And uh yeah i'd really love to see more about like i
(16:50):
mean we kind of skip ahead quite a ways from nia finding
her powers to her becoming dreamer and having the
costume and yeah i hope nicole gets a
chance to explore those years as well because i would definitely come back
for that oh me too and like i kind of
feel like i don't know about you or how you feel with some of
the other like these graphic novels that dc
(17:11):
does like i know i think galaxy and this one they
feel like they're technically like canon to like
yeah earth one or earth prime or
whatever no i think it's earth zero prime earth i don't know what designation
it changes every couple years and then the other ones are like not on the same
earth necessarily because i don't know that some of them they like it doesn't
(17:36):
seem like it goes along with their story like actual stories yeah Yeah,
I think it depends on like how recently that created the character was like.
Yeah. Yeah. Dreamer and Galaxy are both new creations.
You can tell these kinds of stories with it still being in these worlds.
Whereas, yeah, doing something like with the Teen Titans characters like Robin and Superboy,
(17:58):
like it's tough to tell this kind of story while also incorporating it into
the universe without like, yeah, break continuity a bunch. Yeah, but that would be.
What I've seen so far though I do really like how we get a better picture of
what like the average person in the DC universe like what their life looks like
and oh yeah seeing like oh yeah there's even Midwest aliens out there now and.
(18:24):
Yeah, like, okay, awesome. Like, I mean, Marvel is notorious for not telling
like any story outside of New
York, unless that's in the title of the book that it's not in New York.
And DC has got like a lot of fictional cities, but like, they all seem pretty
superhero populated as needed by the book.
So it's, it's cool to see depictions of places that still have weird supernatural
(18:47):
stuff going on, but not with the big, super glossy superhero fights going on too.
Yeah like don't you ever wonder what's going on here
in iowa like with superheroes like is there any
yeah i i know when
at one point marvel they designate a team to uh iowa i think it was like force
works or some like what super d-list team like uh yeah it was during the initiative
(19:13):
phase they like have a superhero team for every state you're not gonna freaking
see them they don't I don't have time for 50 books about D-list characters.
But yeah, they do mention which one Iowa has, and it's a lame one.
I just remember that. Is there a corn-themed hero? I need to know this.
Ooh. I mean, there's probably some level of corn syrup in Combo Man.
(19:36):
Oh, no. Yeah. Hard to say, but I'm sure there's some level of cornmeal or other
corn ingredient in Combos, and therefore in Combo Man.
God. Oh, like if you ever worked in corn, though, like I've detasseled,
which is where you just walk through cornfields in the middle of the summer
and have to wear long sleeves because corn is sharp as hell.
(19:58):
And we'll cut you up like when I'm in signs or other horror movies and people
are running through cornfields. Don't do that.
Let whatever is coming after you get you because I promise it's a better fate
than running through corn.
So at least protect your face. a corn based
superhero or i mean if they're from here probably super
villain uh super dangerous like
(20:20):
we put corn into everything because the subsidies they'll like
take it out of your gas tank and now your car's ruined they'll throw
super like razor sharp corn leaves at you like don't mess
with corn person all right yes but
um one of the things that like i noticed on the
reread here early on in the book when nia is running
away from home after her powers are awakened she just
(20:43):
pulls out like a fully packed bug out bag
from under her porch steps yeah which
tells me like oh i think this girl was
planning this for a while which yeah checks
out given her treatment as a trans teen in this town but i'm like oh dang i'd
like to unpack that i feel like it's so weird that like it's a town of aliens
(21:07):
and they're like they think that being trans is weird You're from different planets. Like...
How is that weird? Yeah, like, I like that the book calls attention to that.
Like, they don't just gloss over it. Like, with Cat and Galaxy,
they have a conversation of, like, oh, well, you're, like, happy to be yourself.
And they're all trying to conform to Earth culture.
(21:29):
But, like, are you telling me every alien there sticks to a gender binary?
Or, like, there's no shapeshifters in the bunch or anything else that's, like, super weird?
Or i don't know people shedding exoskeletons and
turning into like giant bug aliens like there's
there's got to be weirder than weirder things than a trans
(21:50):
person here i mean like i think of like
things on earth that have weird gender and
sex stuff like i don't know like i think what fungi
have weird like ways that
they reproduce and everything and um like clownfish
like do you know yeah the clownfish are weird
there's a whole thing about it and the people's joker it's just
(22:13):
if it's normal on earth think of
how normal it'd be on other planets now my
thought is though like okay you have this school and
town full of aliens that like the weird variations that make them all physically
different that's like true for every single one of those kids they're all probably
really self-conscious about the 13 eyes on their back that's an actual example
(22:34):
or like being made of rock and all these other things so like that's probably
just off limits Like as soon as one kid starts slinging mud about that,
all the other kids probably get on them because they're all super ashamed of
that or like self-conscious when it's something that like the person has a little bit of agency for.
I can see how like trans kids like emo and seen kids, kids that do a weird haircut
(23:00):
or like anything that like makes them stand out a bit or do any kind of self-expression.
That's open season like we can bully the
shit out of them for that and let's get on it so no one makes
fun of the 13 eyes on my back yeah i guess that's
fair i mean like not fair but it makes sense how that
would happen like hey hate isn't logical and
(23:20):
teenagers often aren't good people because they're still learning how to be
people but yeah exactly yeah gosh even like the frog woman that's like a grown-ass
married woman like just stiffing her early on yeah yeah by any knee as mom by
knee as dad by Maeve silent walks out yeah,
but I do also like they're doing
(23:43):
it with aliens so they can get away with it pretty easily but
they do manage to show that even the aliens in a town like some of them are
still privileged pricks among aliens and they call them on that shit and I thought
that was a good little touch like we all know that queer person and that pulls
(24:04):
that stuff and we're like,
we've been there. Thank you, Kat, for calling that out.
And uh yeah you also get some of the good early queer
culture moments like uh nia is a typical early
tran and says something ignorant that's
like deeply hurtful to uh yvette and her
(24:24):
found family early on like okay yeah
this is something that like a lot of coming of age queer and
trans things i think kind of gloss over of like
there's a bit of a learning curve and like even queer
kids say some pretty stupid ignorant stuff while they're wearing things
and like you don't have to freak out like
in the book everyone like is cool about it after
(24:45):
a few minutes just like yeah i think that
yeah gets i think too often do
we like have a character come out and like bam they just know
the terminology or they get a crash course montage
sequence from the wise friend but we never get to see
that fuck up and i think that's an important moment
that yeah even queer people screw up and like it's okay doesn't
(25:05):
mean everyone's gonna hate you forever for it we all do it yeah i
mean no what do you mean you didn't get beamed with the knowledge when you came
out they didn't send that to you well i mean i did but i'm a computer science
trans so like i knew how to download that i still had like the ethernet port
and the hdmi cables on my laptop all you
(25:26):
discless idiots yeah good luck you're not getting the the trans terminology cd-rom.
Now uh do you have anything else you want
to add uh when it comes to like the depictions of like
queer culture as expressed in aliens or like
in a town in this book um i don't
know i i mean um what about the part with like the guy
(25:48):
on the tv lockwood talking about yeah that's
a very obvious like what's
the word like allegory or um yeah
like a parallel to yeah parallel to like fox
news types yeah talking about trans people
i'm pretty sure lockwood was i think the villain
or the name of the villain in season
(26:11):
four of supergirl he was agent liberty and
he was very anti-alien yeah yeah
that was a name that i recognized my second time
reading it after seeing the shows yeah that's a recurring character from
that so i really liked all the things from
super girl i can tell nicole sprinkled throughout uh which yeah you said there
(26:32):
were a few other things in there that you noticed uh dig in i want i want to
know what uh what i missed is not a super girl fan um well the part where she
reveals to her family that she's the one that got the powers and mave.
Says something along lines of like but
you're not a real woman which you know it's not a
true fact or a true statement but that's what she says and
(26:54):
she did the same like had the same reaction in
the show and it was heartbreaking and yeah
i remember that part and oh god what else and
um just also her mom dying and
like that basically like backstory episode
and also her mom died in that episode as well
and yeah i that's the only kind of few things i
(27:17):
remember distinctly yeah i like how
she's reshaping a lot of that but staying
pretty consistent with like okay this is how it played out in supergirl and
we're gonna get as close as we can with this but like it doesn't have to be
the same and the main universe continuity yeah and she's doing a good job like
in uh dreamers other appearances and like lazarus planet and suicide squad we've gotten like
(27:41):
flashbacks to some of those moments.
And I think it's really cool. Like in suicide squad, we get to see it in like
a much more, uh, like traditional monthly comics art style rather than the young adult DC art style.
And it's like, yeah, way more of a horrifying scene in that because they can get away with a bit more.
Oh, I did remember. So I'm trying to find the page.
(28:03):
Another thing that like alluded to this show.
God, where was it there? It was a part where they kind of showed Nia's future. Mm.
Yeah. God, I can't. I mean, there's a lot of those moments in there,
but I was curious about those since there's so much like distinct symbolism
in there or like there's a lot of very specific imagery in there.
(28:26):
And yeah, I was always on it. Okay.
Supergirl is in the shot there at the very end.
And I love that. um also i think this guy
like you can see a face with the three dots i
think that's supposed to be like brainiac five because her and brainiac five
are together in the show that does look like his costume and yeah then dr fate's
(28:49):
helmet i think that ties in with the lazarus planet stuff because right off
the bat she talks about a vision she had of a golden helmet and bad stuff reflected in it.
I really hope that her and Supergirl eventually become friends in the comics
because, I don't know, I love them as friends in the show.
It was so good. And I love her friendship with John, but can we get the girls
(29:12):
together, please? I mean, maybe we can get it in a more roundabout way.
I know in person we've talked about it, but Mags Visagio had a pitch about like
a short, like a 12 issue miniseries or something where she wanted to have Superboy,
the Connor Kent version,
like come to terms with his trans identity.
(29:34):
And like that actually being his issue about
living up to superman is like even if he were to
become superman this role still doesn't feel right and
so if we don't get dreamer and
super girl in the same book sometime in the near future like
i think it'd be really cool if she forms a connection with
connor kent and like oh yeah that helps and
(29:54):
like there's some foreshadowing about that there was a backup in
action comics that mag's gotta write where like it's it's in there but they
couldn't say the quiet part out loud but we all knew what she was going for
because she was pretty clear about it online yeah yeah i really hope we get
to see that someday like at least in elseworlds or something come on dc.
(30:16):
Uh but i would like to touch on some
of the other dreamer books so far in the dc universe like
i haven't had a chance to finish the suicide squad ones yet but
um anyone who reads this and likes it or just
wants a different kind of jumping on point if you're not into young
adult graphic novels seriously check out the suicide
squad one like i had admittedly dismissed
(30:37):
it at first because i'm like okay the new character and
you're lumping it in with one of dc's more recognizable ones is
probably going to be cookie cutter story celebrity writer and
then i read it and like first issue really strong the
characters all have like very good distinct voices and
i'm thinking like okay this is really good it seems like this is
going to be a typical suicide squad story of like
(30:58):
infiltrating a thing doing some ethically questionable stuff and
then no like first five pages of the second issue that's
wrapped up and like we're getting into deeper bigger
event related stuff and like it's got a
really interesting fast pace it's asking cool ethical
questions and it's very distinctly different
from the tone of this book like it's
(31:20):
kind of surprising that it's the same writer within about the same year writing
both stories but yeah nicole's been unnatural so far working within the dc universe
yeah it's it's really good i loved of the interactions between Nia and Harley Quinn.
Oh my God, they were so funny and cute.
(31:40):
Also, Nia and Bizarro, I thought were really sweet.
I think there was a moment when I was reading it, I was like,
oh my God, this is so great. I love Bizarro.
Also, for readers of this book, I hope they maybe tie this into a deluxe edition someday,
but Nicole Maines wrote a dreamer story in this year's DC Pride collection,
and that picks up like almost right
(32:04):
where this one left off and like kind of
works as like a more fleshed out epilogue almost of
like nia tracking down mave and like
stealing back a book of her mother's that
she needs to like help unlock her powers and uh
yeah also getting more into like no mave
as a sister has always been pretty terrible about the
(32:24):
whole trans thing which yeah makes me wonder like
if that's gonna be something that they reconcile like early
on or if they're gonna lean maybe into like more of
a sister super villain dynamic between the
two because i think they've set up something really cool
and like even though she's a freaking turf like nia
did kind of bring some trouble to town that got their
(32:47):
mom killed so like mave's got some interesting motivation beyond
just being kind of a bigot and yeah i think that there's a really good potential
hero villain dynamic there oh yeah i think i'm really curious to see where this
goes i hope it doesn't get like super super late transphobic and stuff just
because i don't always want to be reading that to be honest.
(33:08):
We deal with that so much of that in real life. But yeah, I could see her just
just being like angry about like being like, you took my powers.
Yeah. And I would be shocked if within the next two or three dreamer installments
or if she gets her own series like I see Maeve and Sybil probably teaming up
like that just seems like the comic book thing to do.
(33:29):
Well, first we got to see what happens with dreamer in absolute power because
Amanda Waller is still manipulating her.
I do like what we've seen elsewhere now of like
what dreamers powers look like like
doing dream travel and stuff and going into this dream
realm like i think that opens dreamer up to a lot of interesting stories with
(33:52):
some of the more fringe characters the dc universe or like just doing some creative
distinct stuff in her own books that you wouldn't see in other big two books
well i mean if If you watch Supergirl,
you would know about her powers, like all of them.
Kyle, you in a comic book shop, I know you know how much superhero media there is, all right?
(34:15):
I just don't have time to revisit the Berlanti-verse, and I'm not gonna. I'm sorry.
It was a bit of a chore going back and watching it now. It's fine television, but it's not for me.
Okay, I'm a huge... I love Supergirl a lot. But it's not a good show.
(34:37):
A lot of the times it's not very good. I wish I had it when I was a little bit younger.
Like, I wish this could have been Power Rangers.
But I'm really glad that the generations younger than me have it as an option.
Yeah, me too. It was, like I say, it's not like hard-hitting television.
(34:57):
But it was very fun to watch through the years. And just be crazy online with people.
During that time was that your corner a tumblr
yeah i think that was more when i moved to twitter i
think my when i was on tumblr that was more
about anime stuff my during when i
was more yeah i know man you
(35:19):
should just see me during my kill a kill days on tumblr i
that's when i got pretty a little popular on
there were you uh doing fan art
or something or just coming in with the hottest I don't know
I think I just interacted with
people in the right way I didn't I
don't really know I just said a few goofy things I think people liked it yeah
(35:42):
that's that's social media that's really that that's social media at its best
sadly it's yeah I wish everyone just got there with saying goofy things and
not speaking hate but yeah we've been in
But any final thoughts on the book before we move on to the question of the week? I don't think so.
All right. So touching back on like Dreamer and the potential for her to interact
(36:07):
with other like fringe DC characters or other corners of that universe.
I'd like to know what DC character or characters you'd want to see Dreamer crossover and interact with next.
And also what non DC characters you would hope to see in cross company crossovers.
Well i i there's two at least for dc that i think
(36:28):
would be interesting to see in general i want to see more of
circuit breaker i want to see him get more stuff
other than just being like in the pride anthologies like
do you know who i'm talking about uh-huh let's see they're a flash related character
right yeah yeah he he's like connected to the still force and uh transmask character
at that yeah yeah badass he goes by he they so he just needs to be in more stuff
(36:54):
and also you know just having more trans team-ups.
I think that'd be really cool. That seems pretty common too.
Like I saw galaxy popping up in other pride stories or pride month ones,
not even written by Jadzia.
And like, I do like how much they're embracing that part of the DC universe.
Like, of course all the queer characters know each other. Right.
(37:14):
That exactly checks out like if there's only
like if you can count on two or three hands the
number of trans superheroes like they probably are
on a discord server together exactly and another
one that i think would be interesting to see technically he's
a dc character um the sandman like
(37:35):
yeah i think it would be interesting like and kind
of address that he's not technically part of the
same universe but like because they're
in like a dream area maybe like she meets him
in like the dreaming kind of yeah like that's exactly who
i was thinking of when i saw her enter the dream realm
with the other characters for the yeah and like dream slash morpheus whatever
(37:59):
you want to call him sandman like he was part of the mainline dc universe when
his first couple volumes launched like we even see him interacting with that
incarnation justice league and like those Those were all in continuity at the time.
They just kind of grew away from that over time is my understanding.
I haven't read the series, but yeah, like it would totally be within the realm
(38:21):
of like possibility for Dreamer to come across Dream.
And I think it would make sense as like kind of a late game development for
her since, yeah, this is the god of her superpower.
Yeah, I just think it'd be really cool. like that
whole dc dark corner of uh the
universe i think would be really cool to see her interact with like swamp
(38:42):
thing i think you could tell some really cool stories with like do plants dream
and what do they dream of and uh constantine would be another good one oh yeah
oh just basically justice league dark make her part of justice league dark and
she could team up with cool
people like Zatanna and Wonder Woman.
(39:03):
Hello? Yeah, she needs a bit edgier of a costume before she gets into Justice League Dark.
I don't know, throw her in a trench coat or something. I mean,
look at Wonder Woman. Yeah, well, Wonder Woman gets a pass. Wonder Woman's like
the leader. Okay, that's fair.
Uh but that that is something i'll say though uh
in the suicide squad issues they almost immediately throw
dreamer into a bomber jacket and that is my
(39:25):
favorite look for any superhero in tights
like oh put them in the tights and a bomber jacket they got that bigger torso
like ah that's a good look i love it it does look really cool but as for non-dc
characters like the obvious answer is freddie krueger but i feel like you can
tell like a really interesting story
(39:46):
around that like the in my
opinion best freddy krueger movie is the third one where the
original final girl comes back and is
kind of teaching these kids how to fight back in the dream against
freddy and i think dreamer is
perfect for a story like that of like i
don't maybe even doing it with superheroes of like yeah it doesn't
(40:07):
matter if you're kryptonian you're still vulnerable in your dreams and
like dreamers the only person that can face a dream-based
threat and like teaching people how to do inception shit
to feedback yeah that would be really cool i i didn't didn't get into freddy
krueger a whole lot i mean a little bit as a kid so i didn't i don't know how
i didn't make that connection though that was so that would be a really interesting
(40:29):
one to see see one that like i don't necessarily want to see it but i think for like.
Marketing and brand recognition things it
might be a smart move i've seen stranger things has
started to cross over with different books like they just did a
ninja turtles stranger things crossover which oh
yeah i don't know who was asking for that but hey
(40:51):
stranger things is big i get it whatever you got
to do to sell comics it's a tough industry uh and i
i think dreamer actually could do something cool in that
like with the nature of the upside down they both
come from like weird small midwestern towns
like i think the vibe of those two
things actually would work pretty well together like
(41:13):
if you're gonna make stranger things crossover with anything
in the dc universe i mean first do like teen
titans or something but after that dreamer makes sense yeah yeah
that would be cool uh what about you
for uh non-dc characters okay i've been
sitting here trying to think of something and i'm not entirely
sure um god i mean
(41:34):
a little surprised you didn't jump to powerpuff girls well
i don't know because i'm trying to think of like characters that
are kind of related to like dreaming and stuff
and i don't know hypnos from
hades that would be funny there we
go yeah that would be interesting yeah i
know how much you love hades so yeah oh
(41:56):
my god i love that game so much i could see some like
that art style would kind of work well with the dc young
adult style as well so oh yeah yeah um.
I i'm surprised they haven't done
hades comics yet like i know oh my
god i want them so bad yeah there's a ton of
money to be made in video games and a lot less money to be made in comics but
(42:17):
like we're all here for those character interactions like i don't really care
about seeing zagrius's tell run like i just want more queer greek gods being
catty to each other that's that's all i'm asking please.
More megara please i'm in love with
her all right kyle anything
(42:39):
else you want to plug before we sign off well if
you want to see my comic hot takes that aren't actually really hot takes
a lot of time i do have a comics twitter now
it's just at kyle reads comics i'm gonna be following that thank you so much
today kyle for joining us thank you for uh coming on and sharing your expertise
on the women of the DC universe and especially for giving me Supergirl context
(43:03):
so I don't have to watch all of Supergirl. You're doing the Lord's work there.
You're so welcome. All right. Well, if the listeners at home have requests or
recommendations for comics or creators you'd like us to cover in the future,
you can send them our way on social media.
You can find us on the Transcending Comics Instagram and Facebook page,
on Twitter is at Transcend Comics, or email us at transcendingcomics at gmail.com.
(43:24):
We'd like to thank you again for giving our podcast a chance and give a special
shout out to Ray Day Parade for designing our logo.
Our intro and outro music this week is A Little Soul and You've Been Starring by Carlson.
Check out more of their music on carlson.com. Join us again next week as we
continue transcending boundaries and exploring the colorful world of trans,
non-binary, and genderqueer representation in comic books of all kinds.
(43:47):
As the curtains fall on this episode of Transcending Comics,
remember that comics have the power to inspire change in countless worlds, including our own.
Keep reading, keep writing, and keep transcending.
Music.
Music.
(00:17):
Welcome to Transcending Comics, a podcast dedicated to trans representation
in comic books, manga, and webtoons, both on panel and behind the scenes.
I'm your host, Tommy, and I'm joined today by my go-to expert on all things
Supergirl and Wonder Woman, my favorite comic shop employee,
and my good friend, Kyle.
Welcome back to the show, dude. Hi, thanks for having me again.
(00:38):
Yeah, I mean, I had you on in one of our early episodes to cover Galaxy,
the Prettiest Star, the last trans superhero graphic novel put out by DC.
And since then, you've done a pretty great job keeping me in the loop on every
Dreamer appearance in the DC universe.
So now that Dreamer has her own graphic novel with the DC YA line,
(01:00):
Bad Dream, a Dreamer story, I figured I'd have you back on the show for it.
Yeah, I'm glad you invited me again. It'll be fun.
So getting right into it, I know that you were
familiar with Dreamer long before i was since
you were a big fan of the supergirl tv show so tell
us a little bit about like your association with the character like what
it was like for you seeing the first trans superhero on tv
(01:23):
like as that show was airing oh it was so cool i will admit a lot of the hype
for super was the super corp and that shipping thing and but then also a lot
of pretty much every super person on Twitter was also just super hype about
Nia and the introduction of the first trans character.
And just it was it was really cool just seeing that.
(01:46):
Now, I was only able to catch a couple of dreamer episodes in preparation for
the show, like her first appearance and the one where she comes out on television.
How long is it into her time on the show that you find out she's trans?
Like, is it during that big coming out episode on TV or does she interpersonally
oh no for them i oh god i can't remember exactly i feel like we know pretty
(02:11):
early on um god it's been so long since i've watched i can't exactly remember
but it's earlier than that for sure okay.
Now, before we get into the book, I wanted to take a second to get into the
creative team behind the book and our familiarity with both creators.
So the book is written by Nicole Maines,
(02:32):
the actress that played Dreamer in Supergirl and who seemingly has had a hand
in writing just about every appearance of the character in the DC universe as
they've started to incorporate her from being a TV only character to now being part of the greater DCU.
Yeah i think that's so cool like imagine being just
she's like nicole manes is basically the architect of this
(02:55):
character like that's hers yeah and i'm really surprised with how well this
is gone because like i did read a smattering of her other appearances in the
dc universe like the first couple suicide squad dream team issues uh some of
the event tie-ins and the dc pride
shorts and like Nicole means is really good at this.
(03:17):
Like too often when we get like some level of like movie TV or celebrity person
writing in mainstream comics, like you can tell that it's not a.
You can tell it's not coming from someone who knows how to write a comic.
And like, and that's no shame on them. Like there are a lot of great novelists
who struggle to write a good comic.
(03:39):
So like the fact that someone that's like as active as Nicole.
Doing movies tv shows activism work
like but she's also able to pull off writing really damn good
comics that were like i was genuinely impressed with
like especially the suicide squad ones i kind of
felt like dang hosha was covering these like those might
even be more fun than this and this grab novel is great
(04:02):
as well so yeah nicole manes
i think is awesome i think she's about as
close to a real life trans superhero as we get
both with playing him on tv and being like
a big activist like when she was in fifth grade she
was part of the first ever uh state supreme court
case to rule that trans students can use bathrooms aligning
(04:23):
with their gender identity so like she's been fighting
the fight since she was a kid so nicole manes is a
genuine badass yeah she really is now
this will seem off topic but uh kyle were
you a zoe 101 kid growing up a little bit
yeah okay this is going off Wikipedia here but
did you know that's allegedly where nicole manes got her name from was uh no
(04:46):
the character of like nikki or nicole oh my god i don't even remember that character
but that's amazing yeah it's like i know we've mentioned that show before just
because Cause your dog's name is Zoe.
So of course that's going to come up. I was, I'm a millennial,
so this will happen, but yeah. Okay. This is perfect.
Now, as for the art of the book, the art was done by Rye Hickman.
(05:10):
And Kyle, are you familiar at all with Rye Hickman's other work?
I probably I wouldn't be surprised if I read something with their work in it
before. But I don't remember.
Yeah. Weirdly, we just covered a piece of their work in one of our recent episodes
because they did the art on the D.C.
(05:30):
Pride celebration of Rachel Pollack. and we just
had joe carolla yeah and he wrote that so
glad i'm getting to talk about work from both creators and
uh they also did some work on gem and the holograms that
i've seen since i also had sophie campbell on the show who also did artwork
from that i know rye did a lot of the work that wasn't done by sophie and yeah
(05:52):
awesome art does its own like distinct style on an established series but does
some cool stylized stuff with it and i haven't read any of their other work,
but I do have one of their books on my radar,
Moth and Whisper, which I've heard good things about, kind of cool cyberpunk
story about a genderqueer protagonist.
(06:12):
So it's been it's something I've been meaning to look into for the show.
And yeah, I've only heard good things so far.
So hopefully I'll get around to that one in the near future.
Yeah, that does sound cool. I'm going to add that to my to read list, too.
So with our creative bases covered, shall I get into the summary of the book? Yeah, I think so.
All right. And just a heads up to the listeners. We're going to be getting a
(06:36):
little more in depth with the plot breakdown of this story just to help hit some of our main points.
So do be warned, there's going to be some spoilers ahead.
I'll try to remember to put a time marker in the show notes to tell you where
you can skip to if you want to avoid spoilers for the most part.
But be warned, spoilers ahead.
Nia Nal is a 15-year-old, half-alien transgender girl living in the hidden alien
(06:58):
refuge of Parthas on Earth.
Her mother was famous on her home planet of Naltor for being the head Seer,
a group of precognitive superheroes tasked with defending their planet.
Nia's family is sure her sister-slash-sis-turf, Maeve, will be the one to inherit
her mother's powers, as she was the only daughter in the family assigned female
at birth. Parthas is a community accepting of all aliens, as long as they fall
(07:23):
within the gender binary.
Nia is treated as a misfit among misfits, and after a bully breaks her nose
in a game of kickball, Nia's precognitive abilities awaken.
Quick side note on that, Kyle, did you catch that that's something that they
planted well ahead of time?
In that coming out episode on Supergirl, Dreamer specifically mentions that
(07:44):
on TV, of breaking her nose in a game of kickball when she's 15.
Oh i don't remember that like i said it's
been a while since i've watched the show um i mean
don't blame me for forgetting there since um i
read this first and then started researching the
show a little bit seeing our other appearances and i just thought
that was really fun that like something that small that
(08:06):
they slipped in there she tied into the book so that was
a fun callback there's definitely parts that i actually
do remember from the show that do come up in
the the book and um i think nicole did a really
good job of translating like making the story
that was in the show translate to the dc
comics world yeah be sure to shout those
(08:26):
out too because i'd be curious to know what else they were shadowed in the show
but not wanting to upset her sister nia runs away to metropolis she struggles
to escape her issues however since every time she falls asleep her nightmares
about the future return shortly after her energy manipulation powers activate
while escaping an attempted mugging,
Nia runs into a familiar face for fans of the show, Galaxy, the prettiest star.
(08:50):
Nia makes quick friends with Galaxy as a fellow trans alien.
As well as her girlfriend Kat and trans ballroom queen Yvette.
Her three new friends give Nia exactly what she needs in a situation like this,
a night out with other queer people.
They take her to Metropolis's alien haven of A-Town, also known as Gay Town.
And nia gets her first look at queer community
(09:12):
found families and ballroom culture and also
side note there i am so glad that we just got like
a general ballroom competition closer to something like pose maybe and not just
another damn drag competition like everyone else uses yeah right anyone out
there any especially straight and or cis writers that are listening to this
(09:35):
if you're writing queer characters there's more than just drag shows please
Please, please look it up.
There's other things you can depict that queer people gather around for entertainment.
Please, God, stop giving RuPaul attention.
That night, Nia's nightmares return. After Yvette calms her down from a panic
attack, Nia is approached on the rooftop by Sybil, a fellow seer from Naltor.
(09:55):
She tells Nia that her mom was a deserter that fled and abandoned the planet
of Naltor, but also promises Nia that she can help her pass her powers onto her sister, Maeve.
Nia decides to head home to confront her issues, and Galaxy,
Kat, and Yvette come along.
Nia has a brief moment of connection and understanding with her mother,
but after a disastrous confrontation with her sister, who proceeds to say some
(10:18):
textbook turfy shit, Nia passes out.
She gets some sagely advice from her mother while in the dream realm,
but their conversation is interrupted.
Sybil had followed Nia back to her home, and Nia's mom goes out to confront her.
A superhuman conflict ensues, Nia's mom is killed, Galaxy is injured,
and Nia is almost killed as well, until she discovers the power of self-acceptance
(10:39):
and defeats Sybil through the power within her.
In the epilogue, we find out that just after her mother's funeral,
Maeve ran away from home and into a story to be continued in DC Pride 2024.
Nia accepts her responsibility as a seer and becomes the superhero Dreamer and
makes a vow to find a future she can be proud of.
All right, with the summary out of the way, Kyle, tell me about your first impressions
(11:02):
after reading this book.
I know you'd been anticipating this for quite a while, just like me.
So yeah, I'd love to know what your first thoughts were. well i
really liked it of course also loved the art
and everything and uh i didn't i
i didn't know how involved galaxy would
be in this because i knew she would be at some point or
(11:22):
like in a little bit but um i'm glad i was really glad
to see that she was like a lot more and her
and cat and yvette were like they really helped nia a
lot i i like that she found such a
good support system there yeah i really
like this book's depiction of queer community and
like trans kinship like i've heard the
(11:43):
joke made that that's the problem with most trans representation in
mainstream media oh my god yes there's just one trans
character and there's never just one of us okay
no there's something about hormone replacement therapy or
just transitioning in general that makes us slightly magnetic but
only to other trans people we're all drawn together
i don't know if it's like some kind of destiny thing or what but chances are
(12:06):
if there's one trans person in your circle there's a couple more trans people
in that circle same with just like being queer in general like there's no just
one gay friend they why would they hang around a bunch of straight people like.
They're not as fun yeah we even see that like a bunch of straight aliens aren't as fun like yeah,
(12:29):
her neighbors suck and i think this makes
a really good follow-up to galaxy as
a read uh not just because we see her again here and
it's close to that same time period but uh
like galaxy is very much a book about uh self-discovery
and like finding oneself and like coming to
terms with one's own identity whereas this is one of
(12:50):
those books that starts right off the bat with the character like
knowing and being open about the fact that she's trans and
this instead then gets to focus on like
that first experience of finding uh queer
and or trans community and like just how
exciting that is the first time you go out and all
of a sudden you're not weird or like there's
(13:12):
other people like you and like there's something you
want to be part of there's found families like oh shoot
there's a world for me out there okay i don't have
to just live in a closet oh my god exactly but yeah
on galaxy's appearance i know uh when i had jadzia axelrod on the show She had
mentioned like those fears of having a character she created and put so much
(13:33):
of herself into now being in the hands of someone else because she mostly had
like creative control of galaxies of their appearances as well.
But yeah, she had said that Nicole knocked it out of the park with this.
I would agree as well. I really like how Galaxy is depicted in this,
and it just feels like a good step to fill in that gap between her own graphic
(13:56):
novel and her appearances in Hot Girl.
Yeah. I can't imagine a character that you put so much of yourself into.
DC owns Galaxy, basically, knowing that you're not going to be the one that
always gets to write her.
That would be scary to me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really curious who gets to be the
(14:17):
next person that writes Dreamer as well.
Like, oh, I'm assuming Nicole Maine is going to hold on to that as long as she can.
But like, yeah, I mean, she's like she's a real actress.
Like she's in movies and stuff like which, by the way, see that I freaking love
that great trans vampire movie.
But, you know, like eventually she's going to be too busy doing movie stuff
(14:38):
to write comics because I've heard about how time consuming comic writing is.
And like Nicole's going for it, like writing for like big event tie ins and
like surprisingly telling good stories in said tie ins, which is not an easy feat.
No. So I keep it up with a lot and coloring within the editorial lines super well.
(15:01):
So maybe if this comic thing ever takes off for me, maybe I'll be gunning for
that position. But I don't want to get in Nicole's crosshairs because like she's
one of the like number one people that I'd love to have on the show someday.
But one of these trans DC superheroes, I hope to get to carry that torch for his.
I mean, I'm going to I'm going to do indie stuff. If I make a trans hero,
(15:23):
I'm not going to let some big. Yeah, you have mine.
Yeah, I don't blame you. But I will say I think of the DC young adult graphic novels I've read so far,
I would probably call this one my favorite since I thought it had like the perfect
balance of the like very down to earth human element that these have all had.
(15:43):
Uh while also incorporating just enough
like superhero or like superheroic elements
to it because yeah like some of
the other ones like uh the beast boy graphic novel pretty strong one about like
i don't peer pressure and stuff but uh like beast boy never transforms and only
uses his powers in like the most mild way uh and some of the others are also
(16:06):
kind of like that that like Like it's not a superhero origin story.
It's more a bit of like almost like a pre-origin story of when their powers
are like when the person they're going to become starts to trickle in an early life.
And like Galaxy, like I think the book is better for it, but like Galaxy doesn't
have any kind of superhero fight to it here.
(16:27):
Like it's not a big part of the book. It's not meant to be an action book,
but it does give us that like big climax and the mentor figure passes away and
Dark Phoenix moment, all that.
So like it feels like more of a well-rounded superhero comic,
just with a much bigger focus on those human elements.
And uh yeah i'd really love to see more about like i
(16:50):
mean we kind of skip ahead quite a ways from nia finding
her powers to her becoming dreamer and having the
costume and yeah i hope nicole gets a
chance to explore those years as well because i would definitely come back
for that oh me too and like i kind of
feel like i don't know about you or how you feel with some of
the other like these graphic novels that dc
(17:11):
does like i know i think galaxy and this one they
feel like they're technically like canon to like
yeah earth one or earth prime or
whatever no i think it's earth zero prime earth i don't know what designation
it changes every couple years and then the other ones are like not on the same
earth necessarily because i don't know that some of them they like it doesn't
(17:36):
seem like it goes along with their story like actual stories yeah Yeah,
I think it depends on like how recently that created the character was like.
Yeah. Yeah. Dreamer and Galaxy are both new creations.
You can tell these kinds of stories with it still being in these worlds.
Whereas, yeah, doing something like with the Teen Titans characters like Robin and Superboy,
(17:58):
like it's tough to tell this kind of story while also incorporating it into
the universe without like, yeah, break continuity a bunch. Yeah, but that would be.
What I've seen so far though I do really like how we get a better picture of
what like the average person in the DC universe like what their life looks like
and oh yeah seeing like oh yeah there's even Midwest aliens out there now and.
(18:24):
Yeah, like, okay, awesome. Like, I mean, Marvel is notorious for not telling
like any story outside of New
York, unless that's in the title of the book that it's not in New York.
And DC has got like a lot of fictional cities, but like, they all seem pretty
superhero populated as needed by the book.
So it's, it's cool to see depictions of places that still have weird supernatural
(18:47):
stuff going on, but not with the big, super glossy superhero fights going on too.
Yeah like don't you ever wonder what's going on here
in iowa like with superheroes like is there any
yeah i i know when
at one point marvel they designate a team to uh iowa i think it was like force
works or some like what super d-list team like uh yeah it was during the initiative
(19:13):
phase they like have a superhero team for every state you're not gonna freaking
see them they don't I don't have time for 50 books about D-list characters.
But yeah, they do mention which one Iowa has, and it's a lame one.
I just remember that. Is there a corn-themed hero? I need to know this.
Ooh. I mean, there's probably some level of corn syrup in Combo Man.
(19:36):
Oh, no. Yeah. Hard to say, but I'm sure there's some level of cornmeal or other
corn ingredient in Combos, and therefore in Combo Man.
God. Oh, like if you ever worked in corn, though, like I've detasseled,
which is where you just walk through cornfields in the middle of the summer
and have to wear long sleeves because corn is sharp as hell.
(19:58):
And we'll cut you up like when I'm in signs or other horror movies and people
are running through cornfields. Don't do that.
Let whatever is coming after you get you because I promise it's a better fate
than running through corn.
So at least protect your face. a corn based
superhero or i mean if they're from here probably super
villain uh super dangerous like
(20:20):
we put corn into everything because the subsidies they'll like
take it out of your gas tank and now your car's ruined they'll throw
super like razor sharp corn leaves at you like don't mess
with corn person all right yes but
um one of the things that like i noticed on the
reread here early on in the book when nia is running
away from home after her powers are awakened she just
(20:43):
pulls out like a fully packed bug out bag
from under her porch steps yeah which
tells me like oh i think this girl was
planning this for a while which yeah checks
out given her treatment as a trans teen in this town but i'm like oh dang i'd
like to unpack that i feel like it's so weird that like it's a town of aliens
(21:07):
and they're like they think that being trans is weird You're from different planets. Like...
How is that weird? Yeah, like, I like that the book calls attention to that.
Like, they don't just gloss over it. Like, with Cat and Galaxy,
they have a conversation of, like, oh, well, you're, like, happy to be yourself.
And they're all trying to conform to Earth culture.
(21:29):
But, like, are you telling me every alien there sticks to a gender binary?
Or, like, there's no shapeshifters in the bunch or anything else that's, like, super weird?
Or i don't know people shedding exoskeletons and
turning into like giant bug aliens like there's
there's got to be weirder than weirder things than a trans
(21:50):
person here i mean like i think of like
things on earth that have weird gender and
sex stuff like i don't know like i think what fungi
have weird like ways that
they reproduce and everything and um like clownfish
like do you know yeah the clownfish are weird
there's a whole thing about it and the people's joker it's just
(22:13):
if it's normal on earth think of
how normal it'd be on other planets now my
thought is though like okay you have this school and
town full of aliens that like the weird variations that make them all physically
different that's like true for every single one of those kids they're all probably
really self-conscious about the 13 eyes on their back that's an actual example
(22:34):
or like being made of rock and all these other things so like that's probably
just off limits Like as soon as one kid starts slinging mud about that,
all the other kids probably get on them because they're all super ashamed of
that or like self-conscious when it's something that like the person has a little bit of agency for.
I can see how like trans kids like emo and seen kids, kids that do a weird haircut
(23:00):
or like anything that like makes them stand out a bit or do any kind of self-expression.
That's open season like we can bully the
shit out of them for that and let's get on it so no one makes
fun of the 13 eyes on my back yeah i guess that's
fair i mean like not fair but it makes sense how that
would happen like hey hate isn't logical and
(23:20):
teenagers often aren't good people because they're still learning how to be
people but yeah exactly yeah gosh even like the frog woman that's like a grown-ass
married woman like just stiffing her early on yeah yeah by any knee as mom by
knee as dad by Maeve silent walks out yeah,
but I do also like they're doing
(23:43):
it with aliens so they can get away with it pretty easily but
they do manage to show that even the aliens in a town like some of them are
still privileged pricks among aliens and they call them on that shit and I thought
that was a good little touch like we all know that queer person and that pulls
(24:04):
that stuff and we're like,
we've been there. Thank you, Kat, for calling that out.
And uh yeah you also get some of the good early queer
culture moments like uh nia is a typical early
tran and says something ignorant that's
like deeply hurtful to uh yvette and her
(24:24):
found family early on like okay yeah
this is something that like a lot of coming of age queer and
trans things i think kind of gloss over of like
there's a bit of a learning curve and like even queer
kids say some pretty stupid ignorant stuff while they're wearing things
and like you don't have to freak out like
in the book everyone like is cool about it after
(24:45):
a few minutes just like yeah i think that
yeah gets i think too often do
we like have a character come out and like bam they just know
the terminology or they get a crash course montage
sequence from the wise friend but we never get to see
that fuck up and i think that's an important moment
that yeah even queer people screw up and like it's okay doesn't
(25:05):
mean everyone's gonna hate you forever for it we all do it yeah i
mean no what do you mean you didn't get beamed with the knowledge when you came
out they didn't send that to you well i mean i did but i'm a computer science
trans so like i knew how to download that i still had like the ethernet port
and the hdmi cables on my laptop all you
(25:26):
discless idiots yeah good luck you're not getting the the trans terminology cd-rom.
Now uh do you have anything else you want
to add uh when it comes to like the depictions of like
queer culture as expressed in aliens or like
in a town in this book um i don't
know i i mean um what about the part with like the guy
(25:48):
on the tv lockwood talking about yeah that's
a very obvious like what's
the word like allegory or um yeah
like a parallel to yeah parallel to like fox
news types yeah talking about trans people
i'm pretty sure lockwood was i think the villain
or the name of the villain in season
(26:11):
four of supergirl he was agent liberty and
he was very anti-alien yeah yeah
that was a name that i recognized my second time
reading it after seeing the shows yeah that's a recurring character from
that so i really liked all the things from
super girl i can tell nicole sprinkled throughout uh which yeah you said there
(26:32):
were a few other things in there that you noticed uh dig in i want i want to
know what uh what i missed is not a super girl fan um well the part where she
reveals to her family that she's the one that got the powers and mave.
Says something along lines of like but
you're not a real woman which you know it's not a
true fact or a true statement but that's what she says and
(26:54):
she did the same like had the same reaction in
the show and it was heartbreaking and yeah
i remember that part and oh god what else and
um just also her mom dying and
like that basically like backstory episode
and also her mom died in that episode as well
and yeah i that's the only kind of few things i
(27:17):
remember distinctly yeah i like how
she's reshaping a lot of that but staying
pretty consistent with like okay this is how it played out in supergirl and
we're gonna get as close as we can with this but like it doesn't have to be
the same and the main universe continuity yeah and she's doing a good job like
in uh dreamers other appearances and like lazarus planet and suicide squad we've gotten like
(27:41):
flashbacks to some of those moments.
And I think it's really cool. Like in suicide squad, we get to see it in like
a much more, uh, like traditional monthly comics art style rather than the young adult DC art style.
And it's like, yeah, way more of a horrifying scene in that because they can get away with a bit more.
Oh, I did remember. So I'm trying to find the page.
(28:03):
Another thing that like alluded to this show.
God, where was it there? It was a part where they kind of showed Nia's future. Mm.
Yeah. God, I can't. I mean, there's a lot of those moments in there,
but I was curious about those since there's so much like distinct symbolism
in there or like there's a lot of very specific imagery in there.
(28:26):
And yeah, I was always on it. Okay.
Supergirl is in the shot there at the very end.
And I love that. um also i think this guy
like you can see a face with the three dots i
think that's supposed to be like brainiac five because her and brainiac five
are together in the show that does look like his costume and yeah then dr fate's
(28:49):
helmet i think that ties in with the lazarus planet stuff because right off
the bat she talks about a vision she had of a golden helmet and bad stuff reflected in it.
I really hope that her and Supergirl eventually become friends in the comics
because, I don't know, I love them as friends in the show.
It was so good. And I love her friendship with John, but can we get the girls
(29:12):
together, please? I mean, maybe we can get it in a more roundabout way.
I know in person we've talked about it, but Mags Visagio had a pitch about like
a short, like a 12 issue miniseries or something where she wanted to have Superboy,
the Connor Kent version,
like come to terms with his trans identity.
(29:34):
And like that actually being his issue about
living up to superman is like even if he were to
become superman this role still doesn't feel right and
so if we don't get dreamer and
super girl in the same book sometime in the near future like
i think it'd be really cool if she forms a connection with
connor kent and like oh yeah that helps and
(29:54):
like there's some foreshadowing about that there was a backup in
action comics that mag's gotta write where like it's it's in there but they
couldn't say the quiet part out loud but we all knew what she was going for
because she was pretty clear about it online yeah yeah i really hope we get
to see that someday like at least in elseworlds or something come on dc.
(30:16):
Uh but i would like to touch on some
of the other dreamer books so far in the dc universe like
i haven't had a chance to finish the suicide squad ones yet but
um anyone who reads this and likes it or just
wants a different kind of jumping on point if you're not into young
adult graphic novels seriously check out the suicide
squad one like i had admittedly dismissed
(30:37):
it at first because i'm like okay the new character and
you're lumping it in with one of dc's more recognizable ones is
probably going to be cookie cutter story celebrity writer and
then i read it and like first issue really strong the
characters all have like very good distinct voices and
i'm thinking like okay this is really good it seems like this is
going to be a typical suicide squad story of like
(30:58):
infiltrating a thing doing some ethically questionable stuff and
then no like first five pages of the second issue that's
wrapped up and like we're getting into deeper bigger
event related stuff and like it's got a
really interesting fast pace it's asking cool ethical
questions and it's very distinctly different
from the tone of this book like it's
(31:20):
kind of surprising that it's the same writer within about the same year writing
both stories but yeah nicole's been unnatural so far working within the dc universe
yeah it's it's really good i loved of the interactions between Nia and Harley Quinn.
Oh my God, they were so funny and cute.
(31:40):
Also, Nia and Bizarro, I thought were really sweet.
I think there was a moment when I was reading it, I was like,
oh my God, this is so great. I love Bizarro.
Also, for readers of this book, I hope they maybe tie this into a deluxe edition someday,
but Nicole Maines wrote a dreamer story in this year's DC Pride collection,
and that picks up like almost right
(32:04):
where this one left off and like kind of
works as like a more fleshed out epilogue almost of
like nia tracking down mave and like
stealing back a book of her mother's that
she needs to like help unlock her powers and uh
yeah also getting more into like no mave
as a sister has always been pretty terrible about the
(32:24):
whole trans thing which yeah makes me wonder like
if that's gonna be something that they reconcile like early
on or if they're gonna lean maybe into like more of
a sister super villain dynamic between the
two because i think they've set up something really cool
and like even though she's a freaking turf like nia
did kind of bring some trouble to town that got their
(32:47):
mom killed so like mave's got some interesting motivation beyond
just being kind of a bigot and yeah i think that there's a really good potential
hero villain dynamic there oh yeah i think i'm really curious to see where this
goes i hope it doesn't get like super super late transphobic and stuff just
because i don't always want to be reading that to be honest.
(33:08):
We deal with that so much of that in real life. But yeah, I could see her just
just being like angry about like being like, you took my powers.
Yeah. And I would be shocked if within the next two or three dreamer installments
or if she gets her own series like I see Maeve and Sybil probably teaming up
like that just seems like the comic book thing to do.
(33:29):
Well, first we got to see what happens with dreamer in absolute power because
Amanda Waller is still manipulating her.
I do like what we've seen elsewhere now of like
what dreamers powers look like like
doing dream travel and stuff and going into this dream
realm like i think that opens dreamer up to a lot of interesting stories with
(33:52):
some of the more fringe characters the dc universe or like just doing some creative
distinct stuff in her own books that you wouldn't see in other big two books
well i mean if If you watch Supergirl,
you would know about her powers, like all of them.
Kyle, you in a comic book shop, I know you know how much superhero media there is, all right?
(34:15):
I just don't have time to revisit the Berlanti-verse, and I'm not gonna. I'm sorry.
It was a bit of a chore going back and watching it now. It's fine television, but it's not for me.
Okay, I'm a huge... I love Supergirl a lot. But it's not a good show.
(34:37):
A lot of the times it's not very good. I wish I had it when I was a little bit younger.
Like, I wish this could have been Power Rangers.
But I'm really glad that the generations younger than me have it as an option.
Yeah, me too. It was, like I say, it's not like hard-hitting television.
(34:57):
But it was very fun to watch through the years. And just be crazy online with people.
During that time was that your corner a tumblr
yeah i think that was more when i moved to twitter i
think my when i was on tumblr that was more
about anime stuff my during when i
was more yeah i know man you
(35:19):
should just see me during my kill a kill days on tumblr i
that's when i got pretty a little popular on
there were you uh doing fan art
or something or just coming in with the hottest I don't know
I think I just interacted with
people in the right way I didn't I
don't really know I just said a few goofy things I think people liked it yeah
(35:42):
that's that's social media that's really that that's social media at its best
sadly it's yeah I wish everyone just got there with saying goofy things and
not speaking hate but yeah we've been in
But any final thoughts on the book before we move on to the question of the week? I don't think so.
All right. So touching back on like Dreamer and the potential for her to interact
(36:07):
with other like fringe DC characters or other corners of that universe.
I'd like to know what DC character or characters you'd want to see Dreamer crossover and interact with next.
And also what non DC characters you would hope to see in cross company crossovers.
Well i i there's two at least for dc that i think
(36:28):
would be interesting to see in general i want to see more of
circuit breaker i want to see him get more stuff
other than just being like in the pride anthologies like
do you know who i'm talking about uh-huh let's see they're a flash related character
right yeah yeah he he's like connected to the still force and uh transmask character
at that yeah yeah badass he goes by he they so he just needs to be in more stuff
(36:54):
and also you know just having more trans team-ups.
I think that'd be really cool. That seems pretty common too.
Like I saw galaxy popping up in other pride stories or pride month ones,
not even written by Jadzia.
And like, I do like how much they're embracing that part of the DC universe.
Like, of course all the queer characters know each other. Right.
(37:14):
That exactly checks out like if there's only
like if you can count on two or three hands the
number of trans superheroes like they probably are
on a discord server together exactly and another
one that i think would be interesting to see technically he's
a dc character um the sandman like
(37:35):
yeah i think it would be interesting like and kind
of address that he's not technically part of the
same universe but like because they're
in like a dream area maybe like she meets him
in like the dreaming kind of yeah like that's exactly who
i was thinking of when i saw her enter the dream realm
with the other characters for the yeah and like dream slash morpheus whatever
(37:59):
you want to call him sandman like he was part of the mainline dc universe when
his first couple volumes launched like we even see him interacting with that
incarnation justice league and like those Those were all in continuity at the time.
They just kind of grew away from that over time is my understanding.
I haven't read the series, but yeah, like it would totally be within the realm
(38:21):
of like possibility for Dreamer to come across Dream.
And I think it would make sense as like kind of a late game development for
her since, yeah, this is the god of her superpower.
Yeah, I just think it'd be really cool. like that
whole dc dark corner of uh the
universe i think would be really cool to see her interact with like swamp
(38:42):
thing i think you could tell some really cool stories with like do plants dream
and what do they dream of and uh constantine would be another good one oh yeah
oh just basically justice league dark make her part of justice league dark and
she could team up with cool
people like Zatanna and Wonder Woman.
(39:03):
Hello? Yeah, she needs a bit edgier of a costume before she gets into Justice League Dark.
I don't know, throw her in a trench coat or something. I mean,
look at Wonder Woman. Yeah, well, Wonder Woman gets a pass. Wonder Woman's like
the leader. Okay, that's fair.
Uh but that that is something i'll say though uh
in the suicide squad issues they almost immediately throw
dreamer into a bomber jacket and that is my
(39:25):
favorite look for any superhero in tights
like oh put them in the tights and a bomber jacket they got that bigger torso
like ah that's a good look i love it it does look really cool but as for non-dc
characters like the obvious answer is freddie krueger but i feel like you can
tell like a really interesting story
(39:46):
around that like the in my
opinion best freddy krueger movie is the third one where the
original final girl comes back and is
kind of teaching these kids how to fight back in the dream against
freddy and i think dreamer is
perfect for a story like that of like i
don't maybe even doing it with superheroes of like yeah it doesn't
(40:07):
matter if you're kryptonian you're still vulnerable in your dreams and
like dreamers the only person that can face a dream-based
threat and like teaching people how to do inception shit
to feedback yeah that would be really cool i i didn't didn't get into freddy
krueger a whole lot i mean a little bit as a kid so i didn't i don't know how
i didn't make that connection though that was so that would be a really interesting
(40:29):
one to see see one that like i don't necessarily want to see it but i think for like.
Marketing and brand recognition things it
might be a smart move i've seen stranger things has
started to cross over with different books like they just did a
ninja turtles stranger things crossover which oh
yeah i don't know who was asking for that but hey
(40:51):
stranger things is big i get it whatever you got
to do to sell comics it's a tough industry uh and i
i think dreamer actually could do something cool in that
like with the nature of the upside down they both
come from like weird small midwestern towns
like i think the vibe of those two
things actually would work pretty well together like
(41:13):
if you're gonna make stranger things crossover with anything
in the dc universe i mean first do like teen
titans or something but after that dreamer makes sense yeah yeah
that would be cool uh what about you
for uh non-dc characters okay i've been
sitting here trying to think of something and i'm not entirely
sure um god i mean
(41:34):
a little surprised you didn't jump to powerpuff girls well
i don't know because i'm trying to think of like characters that
are kind of related to like dreaming and stuff
and i don't know hypnos from
hades that would be funny there we
go yeah that would be interesting yeah i
know how much you love hades so yeah oh
(41:56):
my god i love that game so much i could see some like
that art style would kind of work well with the dc young
adult style as well so oh yeah yeah um.
I i'm surprised they haven't done
hades comics yet like i know oh my
god i want them so bad yeah there's a ton of
money to be made in video games and a lot less money to be made in comics but
(42:17):
like we're all here for those character interactions like i don't really care
about seeing zagrius's tell run like i just want more queer greek gods being
catty to each other that's that's all i'm asking please.
More megara please i'm in love with
her all right kyle anything
(42:39):
else you want to plug before we sign off well if
you want to see my comic hot takes that aren't actually really hot takes
a lot of time i do have a comics twitter now
it's just at kyle reads comics i'm gonna be following that thank you so much
today kyle for joining us thank you for uh coming on and sharing your expertise
on the women of the DC universe and especially for giving me Supergirl context
(43:03):
so I don't have to watch all of Supergirl. You're doing the Lord's work there.
You're so welcome. All right. Well, if the listeners at home have requests or
recommendations for comics or creators you'd like us to cover in the future,
you can send them our way on social media.
You can find us on the Transcending Comics Instagram and Facebook page,
on Twitter is at Transcend Comics, or email us at transcendingcomics at gmail.com.
(43:24):
We'd like to thank you again for giving our podcast a chance and give a special
shout out to Ray Day Parade for designing our logo.
Our intro and outro music this week is A Little Soul and You've Been Starring by Carlson.
Check out more of their music on carlson.com. Join us again next week as we
continue transcending boundaries and exploring the colorful world of trans,
non-binary, and genderqueer representation in comic books of all kinds.
(43:47):
As the curtains fall on this episode of Transcending Comics,
remember that comics have the power to inspire change in countless worlds, including our own.
Keep reading, keep writing, and keep transcending.
Music.
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