Remembering Rachel Pollack with Joe Corallo

On this week's episode, we're remembering one of the most important figures in the history of trans comics, Rachel Pollack. Rachel was the first openly trans writer working in mainstream comics, and the creator of Coagula from the Doom Patrol. She was also a major figure in the realms of Tarot and spiritualism, on top of being an award winning science fiction writer.

Joining us today to discuss Rachel's work is her friend and collaborator, Joe Corallo. Joe also contributed an original story to last month's DC Pride: A Celebration of Rachel Pollack, in which he brought DC's first trans superhero back into ongoing continuity.

We also want to dedicate this episode to Liara Kaylee Tsai, an incredible DJ who was kind enough to let us feature her music in the second episode of our show. She was a pillar of our local trans communities, and we miss her dearly. This week's opening song is her untitled sample from 15 Mar 21, and our outro is her song Tesselation Matrix. You can listen to more of her music on soundcloud at https://soundcloud.com/vutall

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey folks, before we get into this week's episode of Transcending Comics,
I wanted to make a quick dedication to a friend I lost while I was editing this interview.
Her name was Liara Kaylee Tsai, and she was an incredibly talented DJ,
one of the most spiritual people I've ever met, and a pillar of the trans community
for both Iowa City and Minneapolis.

(00:21):
Liara was one of the first musicians that let me feature her music on the early
episodes of the show, and I can honestly say that the nights I saw her perform
were some of the most uplifting and inspiring moments of my first two years of transition.
In memory of Liara, we'll be using her music for this week's intro and outro.
This episode is of course also dedicated to Rachel Pollack, who,

(00:43):
as you'll soon hear, was an incredibly influential trans creator and one of
the most notable trans voices in the realm of tarot and spiritualism.
It's been impossible not to think of Liara while working on this episode,
which has made the editing process an incredibly emotional experience.
As hard as this has all been, it's also inspired me to look even further into Rachel's work.

(01:05):
Learning about Rachel's own personal brand of spiritualism has helped me feel
closer to the friends I've lost over the last two weeks that helped inspire
my interest in spiritualism in the first place.
While this week's episode largely focuses on Rachel's career in the comic book
industry, I'd love to do an episode in the future exploring her more spiritual work.
If anyone listening has any memories or personal experiences with Rachel that

(01:29):
you'd like to share, feel free to send them my way.
You can email me at transcendingcomics at gmail.com, or find me on Instagram
and Blue Sky as Tommy Trimbath.
I appreciate you taking a moment to remember Liara with me.
Now, on to this week's episode celebrating the remarkable contributions of Rachel
Pollack to the world of comics and beyond.

(01:52):
Music.
Welcome to Transcending Comics, a podcast dedicated to trans representation
in comic books, manga, and webtoons, both on panel and behind the scenes.

(02:14):
I'm your host, Tommy, and today we're going to be taking a look at the creative
works of one of the most prolific trans comic book writers of all time, Rachel Pollack.
Rachel was the first openly transgender writer to work in mainstream comics,
as well as the creator of Coagula from the Doom Patrol, the first transgender
superhero in the DC Universe.
She was also an award-winning sci-fi and fantasy novelist with acclaimed books

(02:36):
like Unquenchable Fire, Godmother Night, and Temporary Agency.
Rachel was even more well-known, however, for her work as a feminist activist
and as a spiritual figure.
She created the Shining Tribe Tarot deck and wrote both Seventy-Eight Degrees
of Wisdom and A Walk Through the Forest of Souls, both of which are considered
foundational texts in modern tarot interpretations.

(02:58):
Her work inspires many to this day, and she played a major role in helping to
create a more welcoming space for transgender individuals in the realm of comic
books, feminism, and spiritualism.
Joining me today to help explore Rachel's work is writer and editor Joe Corallo.
Joe contributed an original story to DC Pride, a celebration of Rachel Pollack,

(03:18):
in which she brought her character of Coagula back to the DC universe.
He also worked with Rachel as a co-writer on their Comixology original series, The Neverending Party.
And he's been a part of many other notable comics, working as an editor on Kim
and Kim, Mine, and the upcoming Crisis on Our Only Earth anthology.
And as a writer on books like Beckstar, She Said Destroy, and King Arthur and the Knights of Justice.

(03:41):
Now, for their due, I'd like to welcome to the show, Joe Carallo.
Nice to be here. Thank you for having me.
So glad you could join us. So before we begin, I mean, everything I've said
about Rachel so far is what I've been able to find in my research online as a stranger.
But as someone who knew her personally and had a working relationship with her,
what else should our audience know about Rachel before we get into this conversation?

(04:06):
There were a few things in like history and art history and sociology and things
like that, that Rachel either didn't know or didn't have an interest in finding out about.
She she loved to travel. She loved understanding different cultures.
I think one thing that's interesting, and I was having this discussion with Richard Case,

(04:31):
who illustrated Doom Patrol mostly for Grant, but started the first arc of Rachel's
as well and got the chance to work with Rachel for a little bit there.
I described it to him this way, and he agreed that Grant's sort of way of thinking.
There was a lot of anarchy and chaos to it of like, I'm going to throw a bunch

(04:54):
of pieces out there, and then I'm going to put them together like a jigsaw and make the story work.
Like, he would, you know, come up with things, he would do these just,
like, chaotic things of, like, typing things out and then figuring,
like, they could type up gibberish and put it all together and then be like,
well, what does this mean? And then figure it out.
Whereas the way Rachel would do...

(05:16):
So many things like every little bit you would you would talk about with Rachel
would be like, oh, well, you know, this was from this civilization.
This was a ritual done here. And this is from the the ancient texts here.
And this is from this religion.
And she could like that there was meaning and intent in every aspect of her

(05:40):
work, whether it was her novels, tarot, her comics like Doom Patrol.
Troll there there was always intention there was always meaning and
i i know you know especially at the
time when doom troll was coming out there there
was a segment of the population who was like what
is this this seems like gibber and you're like oh this is this

(06:01):
is a bunch of nonsense and it's like no she could explain every little
bit of everything in in
all of that through through her work so tell
us a bit about how you first came across rachel's work
and how you two got into contact with each
other eventually from there so what ended up happening was you know i was a

(06:21):
big fan of rance doom patrol run and you know i did some research and stuff
after i knew you know kept going but was never collected and at the time this
is you know like i know like probably 2014.
Not a You know, you could find like maybe some articles here and there,

(06:41):
but but nothing. It wasn't really a part of the conversation.
And I'm friends with Martha Thomas's who worked at D.C. at the same time that
Rachel was there, was a friend of Rachel's as well.
And i was like so you know
and and martha's also friends with grant and i
was like so you know i love the doom patrol and oh and

(07:02):
this is part of it too martha owns the
last page of grant's doom patrol run which is you know incredible and so i was
like you know she's doom patrol fan i was like so you know people talk enough
about you know rachel's run like is that something i should She was like,
absolutely, you should read it. It's good.

(07:22):
So I was like, okay. So a mixture of Backish You've Been Diving and eBay,
I was able to cobble together the run over time.
I read the whole thing, and I loved it so much that I found Rachel's website.
She had her email address, and I emailed her. I emailed her.
The subject line was a new fan, and I wrote out just a nice thing about how

(07:48):
much I loved it, how important it was.
And within 20 minutes she
emailed me back and you know i've i've never done this
before on any podcast but let
me see i will just get her initial
response and and share it
because why not i love that yeah i've seen

(08:09):
that website of hers it's still even up like
how she uses a sephiroth or like tree of
life is the navigation of the site and
it's real clever but also like real classic internet
absolutely so oh my
god it was exactly 20 minutes so it was
august 10th 2015 at 5 37

(08:30):
p.m eastern when i wrote and it was uh i wrote her uh good afternoon miss pollock
you know i've been a a rather big fan of doom patrol for some years now and
uh you know i i go into a bunch of stuff and then you know i end with you know
i'm looking uh forward to delving into your prose Joe's work as well after getting through this.
Thank you for putting out such high quality work. And I hope all is well.

(08:53):
Regards from a new fan, Joe. At 5.57 p.m., so exactly 20 minutes later.
Thank you so much, Joe. This really makes my day.
Say hello to Martha for me next time you speak to her. Thanks again, Rachel.
And then, you know, we started going back and forth and, you know, got to be friends.
She lived at the time in Rhinebeck and I'm a Long Island.

(09:16):
So about two, two and a half hours away, I would take the Amtrak up to visit
her and she would pick me up in her car.
You know, we would hang out in Rhinebeck. And sometimes when she was healthy
enough, she would come down to Manhattan.
You know, Martha Thomas's would have her Hanukkah donut party every year.

(09:37):
And Rachel was able to come to a few of those, which was an opportunity for
her to she got to meet, you know, Max Saggio with those parties.
So she got to meet a bunch of other new fans and she got to see,
you know, some old acquaintances like Stuart Moore, who edited Time Breakers
and who also wrote the intro to the D.C. Pride celebration of Rachel Pollack.

(10:00):
She got the opportunity to see, you know, not just Martha, but like Heidi McDonald
and some other people she had gotten to know over the years through her work at D.C.
So it really did mean a lot.
I was able to sort of get her back in the comics over time.
Time we would uh you know i was able to get her
into this uh mine anthology benefit playing
parenthood and i paired her with uh feodor pavlov

(10:23):
who is uh you know a trans comic artist
and tarot artist himself so so
that was a lot of fun uh i i've known feodor for
years and uh yeah it was a
it was a very uh it was very cool story very um
you know deep uh you know seeped in a greek mythology but yeah just think about
like going to a forbidden planet like with rachel like just the two of us like

(10:46):
going in and just like buying the new comics to like off the rack and stuff
like that that was a lot of fun there was a time we did that and martha joined us and we got thai food.
At um i think it was spice which was like a couple
of blocks from forbidden planet you know all these sort of
uh things like that but yeah it was just incredible getting to
go to multiple shops with her over the years getting to um

(11:08):
also get her into the deadbeats anthology which
she did in 2019 which was a reunion it was
her richard case and john workman who
had lettered her whole run as well as grants
and who we were also get we also
got rather to letter the uh 10 pager
for the um celebration of rachel pollack uh

(11:29):
one shot and i got cjohn uh at
heroes con this past weekend and um you
know he was he was very sweet he had said that you know he he thought rachel
would have loved it it was very very kind of him but yeah i mean we we got to
be good friends we ended up uh you know i i had come up with that the never-ending party idea.

(11:52):
Specifically to kind of trick rachel into
writing more comics and and
uh part of that too which was a lot
of fun for me is um i didn't initially have
uh the character of mindy morrow which i
love that name but um do tarot i
originally had her doing astrology just to

(12:16):
get it so rachel would be like could mindy
do tarot instead i just wanted rachel
to have to like tell me like yeah we're doing
tarot like i just smacky avelian planning right there i love it but no it was
and and that was a blast i mean that was um the way we would write that would
be we would have a phone conversation i would take notes and then we i would

(12:41):
just split up the scenes you know with uh with me and Rachel, we would,
you know, I'd email over the notes and stuff, and it would be like,
you know, she would take these scenes and then I would take the rest of it. It,
worked out to more or less being an even split every issue and uh after the first issue.
It might yeah i think after the first or it might have been after the

(13:01):
second i know she handled the majority of the endings so
i'm thinking it was definitely three through five but it
might have been two through five i'd have to
go back to the notes and double check but but that
was a lot of of fun because i i am of an age i i'm i'm 39 so when i was in elementary

(13:22):
school and uh offline before we started recording i was you know talking about
how you know i was a pretty gay kid but um,
so there were times you know i i clearly remember like being home sick from
school or you know know, quote unquote sick from school in like third grade.

(13:44):
So this would be like, you know, like 93 and watching like Geraldo Rivera's
talk show or Phil Donahue when like the club kids would be on and like that
was my first experience with like RuPaul and the club kids and all of that,
which was, you know, a big part of the inspiration for the for the book.

(14:04):
Yeah, I see that almost directly referenced in there with the characters in the 80s.
So, you know, when I was talking about it with, you know, Rachel,
a lot of mythology and stuff like that, she was like, I can handle that.
And then, like, you know, the club kid elements and some of this stuff,
she's like, I'm not as well versed in. So I was like, I got you on that. Don't worry.

(14:25):
And, you know, well, you know, like it was definitely I'm trying to think.
Yeah it would have been her idea to make it dionysus and
use the main ads and and then you know
i had the like um i had not geraldo
rivera in in that comic and and
that was fun you know putting all that together and i watched

(14:46):
while we were putting it together i not
only re-watched a bunch on
youtube of like the old like geraldo rivera
club kid episodes i also made
it a point to you know read the
book you know party monster was originally disco bloodbath but
i was like let me buy this you know book i

(15:06):
had been meaning to read it because i'd seen the movie party monster but
i never read the book so you know i just wanted to
have as much of that just in my mind
when we were writing it on party monster and yeah
rachel kind of taking over the mythology like i had
noticed that dionysus had like a very
androgynous presentation through the book and

(15:28):
i know in some of rachel's more spiritual writing like
i think the body of the goddess like she had kind of
discussed dionysus as a transmasculine figure of sorts so i was curious about
like was playing an intentional role in the mythology of the never-ending party
or uh if that was more artist interpretation definitely some of that was was

(15:49):
definitely rachel you know ava definitely added elements to it.
I think it was Rachel who suggested that Dionysus should be just taller than everyone.
Because throughout it he's like at least a head taller
than everyone through the story but yeah
like you know supposed to be you know androgynous

(16:11):
uh throughout and you know ava i think up to that point that was you know like
the the best work i'd seen from reid worked with her on kim and kim previously
and just like the costume designs and everything i i just i absolutely love them Um, there's, um,
there's a scene I want to get into spoilers necessarily, just in case people haven't read it yet.

(16:35):
But, um, there's a bit where, you know, someone, someone meets an unfortunate
and their head washes up on Staten Island.
And that's a reference to a club kid angel who had been killed in his body had
washed up on Staten Island.
Like, so, so, you know, I wanted to put Put as many references to all these

(16:59):
things as I could in there.
Now, I noticed that in like some of the very final pages of that miniseries,
we see COVID come into play into the world of the comic.
Did COVID impact the writing of that book or its release?
That kind of took me by surprise. Like I didn't expect it to be a COVID book

(17:20):
until there it was. Yeah.
It didn't impact the release as much because the initial release was digital
in the way comiXology worked.
I think for the most part still does is it's about a year before the trade comes out.
But, you know, it slowed down production for sure.
You know, we were, yeah, I was hoping the book would come out sooner.

(17:42):
But, you know, it's fine.
That happens like it. There were, you know, people get sick, things would happen.
But you know that was uh some of
the more political satire commentary especially
like that stuff towards the end was was really you know
stuff rachel wanted to include in the book you know
we would talk about it on the phone because not that

(18:03):
you don't necessarily want to talk about these things in
a book but you know you you want to have that
discussion of like how is this going to age um
you know are people even going to
get this like x amount of years from now i
think unfortunately we're we're all scarred
for the rest of our lives so you know so

(18:23):
yes we'll all get it but yeah that
was um i i think that sort of stuff might
as well you know like it's not
a huge part of the book but you
know like and that's kind of where we came down on
it like let's not make the book like about

(18:44):
that but let's also not pretend like it's not happening that's kind of where
we we fell on that i thought it made for a great twist toward the end like try
to avoid spoilers best i can but like going from this party going too hard to
that like complete lack of any party culture and people being like oh god please come back like.

(19:04):
That was a great way to tie a nice bow on it yeah no i mean she handled the the ending of it like.
Phenomenally basically she had this ending and
then you know i teed up how we get to
that point again like i'm trying to avoid spoilers but i'm like i you know the
the confrontation the club like i handled that and then all the aftermath was

(19:25):
was rachel and i knew she wanted there were certain you know plot points she
wanted to hit so i had to be like okay i have to tee those up So I was like, okay, here we go.
You mentioned kind of teeing up Rachel to bring tarot to the book.
And I know that like Neil Gaiman and other writers have talked about doing tarot

(19:46):
readings with Rachel or consulting her for tarot in their books.
And I'm curious what kind of role
that played in both your relationship as friends and like as co-writers.
Like, did she do readings around Never Ending Party or any of your other works?
I mean she she would do readings for for herself from
from time to time but you know it wasn't necessarily you

(20:08):
know discussed i think some of that stuff was you know like personal or
just things she would do on her own but i and you
know this this is uh you know maybe it's a regret i i don't know it's it's hard
to say i regret but um and i've talked about this with zoe her widow of um you
know because zoe's asked me not that long ago like did rachel ever do a reading

(20:28):
for you and And I was like, I never, like,
it's not that I didn't want one from Rachel, but it was like,
I felt like doing that would have like, like, I don't know.
I didn't want to be like that friend who's like, you know, cause I was like, I want to ask.
And then like, she, she wanted to do it. And then it was like,

(20:48):
oh, I want to like pay you.
And then like, oh, don't, you know, like I was just like, oh,
I don't want to, I want to take advantage of like the friendship.
And Zoe was sort of more or less like, well, that was stupid.
You should have just done it.
Which is funny because I personally have gotten readings from like friends of

(21:10):
mine and stuff like that.
Like I know plenty of people that do do tarot. And like that's for me was fine.
But like when it was for Rachel, I was like, well, I don't want to put Rachel
on this. Which is also funny because Rachel was a big proponent of just honoring the question asked.

(21:31):
And I know that there are people in tarot, and I'm not saying it's wrong or
anything like that, but who,
if they think maybe it's a poorly worded question,
or they think that maybe there's a better question or something else that might
make that sort of suggestion,
but but rachel was very adamant about

(21:51):
like you honor the question asked and you answer
it with you know tarot to the to the
best of your ability that's that's what you're there to do i mean
i don't think that stops anyone and including myself from
being like oh well i know that's what she's going to do but
i mean she'll still think like i i don't know why he's asking me
that but sure you know but it's

(22:13):
just more of a human nature thing of like i know you're not
going to judge me it's like you have rachel pollack like
but she also has no real ego
like was never like i've never heard a story from anyone who never experienced
anything where it was like you know rachel pollack was you know throwing her
weight around something or like but like like that just wasn't a thing she was

(22:35):
very approachable so so you know you're right so it was stupid.
I'm not much of a tarot person myself but i
do own a single deck and i was like all right i
feel like it's just on brand if i do a
poll like right before this interview and uh
two cards fell out while i was shuffling so i
decided to just go with those and it was um the magician and

(22:58):
the lovers which are both kind of
like decision focused cards and i
was like i still am not totally really sure how to interpret that
in relation to the interview but like i have been
thinking about how i want to commemorate rachel
on the podcast is like you know this being the
first trans comic book podcast and like owing so much of like what i research

(23:22):
and what i do to her work so yeah i think kind of deciding like i think i'm
going to do more than one episode about this so like you You and I can talk
about the creative side of her and her career,
and then I can talk to others that are more familiar with her tarot work,
because I think that was really the thing I was most impressed by as I was looking

(23:44):
into this was just how small of a blip her comics work was in comparison to
everything else she accomplished in her life.
And she still did a decent amount.
I mean, that's I believe what is it?
Her Doom Patrol runs, I think, the third longest because it's,
you know, you have the Silver Age run, you have Grant's run and hers.

(24:06):
But I'm pretty sure she ended up writing more than Gerard.
I think she wrote about I think she might have done more than yeah I think she
did more than Keith Giffen as well because it's not just the 24 issues there's
also the eight page story from Vertigo jams and the annual.

(24:27):
So that like edges it over on some of the ones that make it close to like the two year mark.
I think I was a little more impressed on how many small runs we've been had
on Doom Patrol compared to those first two or three.
I guess they have all mostly been like maxi series in hindsight,
which, you know, I'd love to see more with Doom Patrol.

(24:48):
I think it's such a fantastic book. and you
know clearly i mean rachel wanted to do it because she
loved grants run you know i think that's also
really important is um you know because i
could see someone especially now you
do tend to see a narrative and

(25:09):
this isn't to say that the people getting the jobs aren't big
comic book fans because i've talked to a bunch of them and they are but
the way that like sites and things tend
to report it is like why a author taking
over you know x-men or
a movie or tv writer taking
over moon knight or you know whatever it is

(25:32):
and uh it it loses sight of
the fact that the person is also a comics fan
and rachel is very much a comics fan from
a very young age she loved uncle
scrooge and you know all the duck comics he would do with louis and donald duck
and all that she was a big fan she loved uh you know carl barks in particular

(25:55):
you know like a lot of people did but you know as a kid she was like it's the good duck artist but.
You know later on like putting it together you know it was uh carl
barks and you know when she was in hospice
in in her home she even had uh huey
dewey and louie at her bedside like a.

(26:15):
A print out of that you know she loved all
sorts of comics we talked um when she
was in the rehab facility and i
visited her in um september of 2022 uh.
We were talking about like golden age archie comics you
know we talked about that we talked about gene colin she
was big gene colin fan you know in addition to

(26:38):
like jack kirby steve dicko but like you know gene colin was
another one you know she really loved and i'm a
big gene colin fan too you know that like the
70s like dr strange comics and stuff like that
it's fantastic the work he did on that um you
know daredevil i mean he did a lot of stuff but i i love
gene colin on batman as well i think it's really

(26:58):
great but um you know rachel loved comics
so much when she like initially was
looking for like uh you know before she started teaching she
had applied uh to be a writer at marvel
as like an out trans woman in the
early 70s and um she she
got rejected you know um i i

(27:20):
have no idea if it had anything to do if she was trans because
i it wouldn't have been something she would put on there would
she would have just been rejected in the 70s for being a woman
so it wouldn't matter but um so and she had like um she she had told the story
about teaching her college courses and uh one of the master like you know like

(27:42):
what what made you want to like teach these classes like what made you want
to be a teacher and she responded with.
Well, I applied to be a writer at Marvel and they turned me down and like the
class was just like lost it. Like they were just like, that's amazing.
But, you know, I also think, you know, especially for your listeners and you

(28:03):
and a lot of other people that, yes,
she was an out trans woman in
the early 70s who was teaching classes in college and it wasn't an issue.
You know this was not a thing that like
she never discussed or her
her friends either of their being anything where it

(28:23):
was like you know she lost her job for
being you know trans or something like that so yeah i i mean that's you know
that's another thing too you know she came out it was 1971 there were times
that you know she talked about where some people would just assume that She
was at Stonewall, and she would have to be like,

(28:44):
no, no, no, I was not there.
Which is funny.
But um another big person in
uh you know queer comics space howard cruz who he
also lost who was one one of the if not the first out gay man in comics in the
70s he actually was at stonewall but like he wasn't there for the riot he had

(29:10):
like dropped acid got on the subway and was going to
stonewall and then when he came when he's walking
up the riot was already like going and it
took him a minute because he was like is this like actually happening
or and and no
joke this is howard actually told me what he was like

(29:31):
stonewall was my favorite gay bar in
manhattan before the riots on that note of acid uh one of a number of things
that like it really resonated with in Rachel's experience and doing my research
was finding out that she also was able to piece together that she herself was
trans on an acid trip, which is exactly what happened to me.

(29:53):
And I can see some psychedelic influences or like elements of that kind of awakening
experience in some of her writing.
But I'm curious if that's something you and her ever talked about of like what
exactly she experienced on that trip or how that's maybe inspired her writing over the years.
Talked specifically about that

(30:16):
trip but you know she was always very open about
that sort of stuff and other cultures and and
you know how they would um you know also like you know different cultures having
their sort of experiences with you know psychedelics as well and um you know
she again like she was just a fountain of information but on that exact note

(30:37):
too which i i i think is It's fascinating.
Like, there's this thing about Rachel. It's not that she was naive,
because she certainly was not naive,
but it was like this childlike innocence she had where she had such a loving
family when she was growing up.

(30:57):
And, you know, her parents were orthodox and, you know, she was supported.
It wasn't any sort of issue. she didn't
know that other like trans
people that were coming out like that had like
the you know some some really horrible stories it wasn't something that like
had like crossed her mind initially because she just you know like she she had

(31:24):
this you know wonderful experience i mean obviously you know she was young at
the time and you know you'll learn quickly but it was like Like,
just this, like, because at her core.
Rachel just always, like, believed in the best in people.
And she always had this, like, positive outlook on things.
And, I mean, she was able to, she's inspiring in a lot of ways.

(31:49):
And I think this is something for a lot of people to think about and consider, too, is...
She was like aware of what was going on in the world, like right up to, you know, the end.
And she was she was informed she had been more of an activist, you know, in the past.
And obviously, you know, health and different things, you know,
she wasn't like out there in the same way, but she knew what was going on. She knew the problems.

(32:14):
She had opinions that are probably not all that unlike me or you or most of
the people that would be listening to this.
But she's still like that never
stopped anything that was never we
never like we would have discussions on politics
and talk about all sorts of things and what was going

(32:35):
on and even when i when i visited her in the rehab
facility was uh i believe the day
that we got steve bannon walking in handcuffs and
having to do that perp walk so you know like talking about talking about
that sort of thing it was either then or like after that
and i called about but it was like right around them and you
know it was very aware of all these things that were going on but it felt like

(32:59):
it never even crossed her mind to let the world drag her down like it wasn't
like an option it was just you know like well why you know you just keep going
you know and like she never expressed.
Any negativity like like
she never expressed any general negativity about the world

(33:20):
around her or the state of the world you
know like we would talk about everything but there was she always
had this there there was this sort of feeling of
like optimism overall that things you know
would eventually you know it'll it'll eventually you know get there you just
keep doing the work and why i think this is also important for people to keep

(33:40):
in mind is she was there during times like the the whole gay liberation front
you know in london you know for people that don't know,
you know, when she was active there, I, 1972.
They were really supportive. And then she had left to go back to the States for a little bit.

(34:00):
I believe it was to come out to her parents, do some other things, you know, and came back.
And something had happened in that network that just sort of like poisoned the well.
And there was division and there were people who
that were working within there that you know
who were gay lesbian bi etc that

(34:21):
were suddenly not open or
welcome to trans people the trans cause sound familiar anybody but and this
was again in the 70s like they think there is this cyclical kind of kind of
nature to it and you know and she experienced that and she still you know she
She dealt with that personally, being involved in an organization,

(34:44):
and still moved on and was able to have an overall positive attitude about things.
And I feel like Rachel, more than a lot of people, had reason not to be because
she saw that happen over and over again.

(35:05):
You know, when she was marching in the early 90s in Manhattan for Pride,
the organizers didn't want any trans people openly walking as trans people supporting
trans rights. They didn't want that focus.
And her and a small group of other, you know, out trans people were like, we're going to anyway.

(35:27):
So either you freak out and call the cops and have us arrested in public for
marching or you'll let us do it.
And they let him do it. And more people joined them.
It was like 10 or so people at first, you know, holding a banner and walking.
So again, this is someone who multiple times over decades, you know,

(35:50):
be involved in an organization, they become maybe less interested or openly
hostile towards the trans experience and trans rights.
And then, you know, go somewhere else, same thing happens. And.
And she would push forward and, you know, it's really remarkable.
So, you know, I think she is someone to look to for a lot of that at times when,

(36:12):
you know, it might seem hard.
As a little footnote on that, I'd just like to throw out for listeners out there
that Extra Magazine had a great little expose on the life of Rachel that goes
into a lot of that activism and that experience of like leaving and coming back
to a community that was far less accepting of.
Ever on her turn uh was a jude allison s

(36:34):
doyle that wrote that so if anyone wants to have
like a good quick read with a nice overview of the various
facets of rachel's life uh that's like a great starting
place to get a big picture of what kind
of accomplishments you can find absolutely but on that
sense of optimism i think that's something that's
really helped her work stand out as

(36:56):
described by many other writers like
yourself neil gaiman uh that like
it was just so far ahead of its time like reading coagula's
first appearance the laughing game now like it has aged perfectly like there's
nothing i see in that reading it as a trans woman now that makes me wince and

(37:17):
knowing that this was the 90s of all times when everyone else is responding to the
crying game by making even more transphobic references.
Meanwhile, like I'm assuming calling this story, the laughing game was also play on that.
And it's like the perfect response to just the general, like tone and dialogue

(37:39):
of trans people at that time. And like that, that.
Optimism shows throughout her work that
i've read so far in the community i see her
queer characters having like i never feel like
i'm reading about characters that are questioning whether or not
it's worth it to be trans to be lesbian like
a friend just asked me today about like what i

(38:01):
look for in good queer representation and i think
that's one of the key elements of like finding that queer joy in community and
just like seeing these amazing depictions of trans culture or like lesbian culture
and Godmother night that still resonate
and just feel so real as someone experiencing modern queer culture.

(38:22):
Like this, this, this is what it looks like. Yeah.
I can't believe anyone was writing so accurately about this 20,
30 years ago. Yeah, no, it is wild.
And, um, I, I think some of it also speaks to when you're saying that,
and this is a slight tangent, I'd love to sort of get your opinion on this as well.

(38:42):
I guess I'm like, you know, now I'm interviewing you kind of.
But one thing, and I've talked to other queer creators.
Some of them fairly prominent in the space about how it does sort of seem sometimes
right now that we're often trapped in kind of a like queer 101 course.

(39:05):
Course and that's a lot of the material that comes
out themes sometimes like it
is like it's almost made for allies
to understand or it's maybe
made for you know being more generous or it's made for people who are more recently
out and that is important there needs to be material like that people need to

(39:32):
feel welcomed there's a reason you have 101 courses you do need those.
But it feels like there's like a glut of that and there's not as much coming out.
It's like because eventually you hope that you will be out longer than you were

(39:52):
not out in your life and you're still going to want to consume media.
And maybe you're pushing
40 like me and you've been out for over half
your life what you look for in queer
media and representation is going
to be different than someone who is

(40:14):
questioning who's recently come out who's
only been out for five years and what rachel
i think was able to do with her doom patrol
run is again like create this like work that
stands the test of time that both
feels it feels inviting but

(40:34):
it also doesn't it never feels like you're being talked down
to it doesn't feel like it's it's
being dumbed down for an audience it's it's honestly
like hanging out with someone like rachel pollack
you know she was so welcoming and inviting and
she would particularly you know

(40:54):
decades ago answer people's you
know sort of questions that you know might make you cringe now
about things uh well i'll share
this since neil gaiman brought this up in a conversation that
i had with him at the um elimination of writers podcast you know and he and
he said this with all humility he didn't even have to share this but he was.

(41:15):
Like he's like in his 20s and rachel was like the first trans woman he met and
he asked her like so if there's like trans women does that mean there's trans men.
You know, and it was one of those things. And I mean, that is something that
I still see blow people's minds today, you know.

(41:38):
But yeah, no, she was always very open and happy to have those conversations.
I very distinctly remember having a conversation with her where I'm getting
emotional just gearing up to say this.
Because, again, it's just one of those things that speaks to that,
like, innocence and just thinking the best of people as her, like, gut reaction.

(42:02):
You know, we were talking and she was just like, I don't understand how someone
could be out and trans and not, like, want to be, like,
a member of the community and not want to be part of this beautiful thing.
You know and it's like that kind of stuff like

(42:24):
that's rachel and um you know again just this uh just this overwhelming positivity
and and wanting people to feel like welcomed and that there was a place for
them and that there was you know like literature for them and everything.

(42:45):
I love how much she just throws readers into these queer communities.
Like, yeah, Coagula has trans friends in a seemingly trans bar,
though she doesn't spell it out.
On Godmother Night, the main characters are very involved with like a lesbian activism club.
And like, there's never a segment where they like break things down and explain any of these terms.

(43:10):
Like, it's just stated very matter of factly. And you can tell it's someone
pulling from their experience at that.
And so I think that does kind of skip what you were talking about with the 101,
the Queer Issues 101 aspect of a lot of modern media.
Yeah yeah no absolutely and another

(43:31):
thing too like with godmother night um you know
temporary agency unquenchable fire these books it feels
like not only if these books came out now would there have been notes to be
like you have to make this more explicit you have to do this you have to explain
this but like it feels like if godmother night came out now they would be like
well we have to have like two women holding hands or kissing or something like

(43:54):
we have to make it clear this is a.
Lesbian book and i know i'm being a bit flippant and
unfair saying that i'm being a bit hyperbolic here
but but it does feel like the work
the way rachel lived her life the way she would talk like she was a writer and
that's what she wanted to be known for she wanted to know be known for being

(44:15):
a writer which included writing about tarot writing prose writing comics and
it was more of this idea Of like, she wants to be known as a writer.
She's a writer. And like, of course, she's trans. And of course,
these things are in her writing.
And it's like this, like, matter of fact, like, I'm a writer.
These are things I write about. And you'll figure it out. You know,

(44:40):
you'll, you'll have to come on board and, you know, get with it.
I think she does a good job putting people in this,
putting them in a place where they can understand a lot of like the trans experience
by not always explicitly talking about the characters experiences as trans ones.
Like one of the focal characters of Godmother Night of Jake,

(45:03):
like having this dilemma in the first chapter or two about like not feeling
like their name fits them.
And then coming across the name Jake. Like they never state that that character
is transgender and she really sticks to a pretty feminine role after that.
But like they nail that feeling of dysphoria that like I've noticed that in

(45:23):
a few of the shorts and other things I've picked up of like transcribing the
feelings of dysphoria to other things without making it quite allegory.
Just like describing the feeling rather than
naming the feeling and naming it as an experience specific
to trans people yeah of course and you know i think that's important i think

(45:44):
it's it's good to see that that sort of work out there and i think there's a
lot of people in in queer spaces you know trans or not you know gender non-conforming
non-binary queer in in all all all these different circles that,
you know, it's, it's an important part of who you are.
It's, it's part of your identity, but there's also more to us than that.

(46:08):
And, and I think it's important to embrace that and celebrate that and push that too.
And, and Rachel did all of that.
It's, there was seemingly no part of Rachel's life that was uninteresting.
Whether it was her identity, her writing, her experience in tarot, her travels.

(46:34):
Her knowledge of religion, her knowledge of cultures, her just entirely esoteric
knowledge that was just fascinating.
But also visiting her in hospice, we had Buffy the Vampire Slayer was on.
You know uh when i visited her in rehab she

(46:55):
was talking about how she had been watching uh you
know the sandman adaptation was enjoying that you know like
there's you know she's she had so
many interests and and there was just so much
to her and and that's that's part
of it you know that's part of being queer is
everything else about you and and

(47:17):
there's just it's i i
guess you know i'd sort of say that like every aspect
of her life was admirable and
aspirational in in some some former fashion
like it's you know she she lived
abroad she traveled all over the world um you know she never got to japan and

(47:38):
we had talked about that how she had wished she could have gone to japan you
know and things like that but she she was well traveled she got to live all
sorts of places she She got to meet all sorts of people,
experience all sorts of things and, you know, through that, you know, queer lens.
And and that's something, you know, I think people are able to do it.

(48:03):
You know, it's important, too, is just experiencing all these different things
through your unique queer lens.
And i guess having known her
and getting to see all these different facets of her
life all these different interests of hers and also getting
to work alongside her professionally like how do you
think your time with rachel both

(48:24):
has shaped and will continue to shape you
as a writer and the way you write queer and
specifically trans characters so for me and
and this you know overlaps and ties into some of
the stuff we've been talking about already um reading rachel's work and then
meeting and understanding rachel you know at first when when you check this

(48:47):
out with no context you're like how in the hell does anyone even come up with
this i mean it's it's like Like,
I mean, Godmother Night is like,
you know, a lesbian,
like, R-rated Miyazaki nightmare.
And like, like, like just things like that, where you're like,

(49:08):
oh my, like, where, where is this coming from? Where, where do you even think that?
And then you talk to her and you see her inspiration and she's like,
you know, oh, well, you know, this is from, you know, this culture.
I traveled here and I read this author and I was listening to this,
uh, this music, or I saw this, uh, you know, play or like all these things.
And there's these inspirations and these different, you know,

(49:32):
folk tales and legends and Greek mythology.
And, and that's when I got the realization of like, these stories are so fantastical
and imaginative and raw and human.
And, and I think that's another thing to stress too, is how human Rachel's writing is.

(49:52):
Like everyone like there's I'm trying to think of the exact line but like in
Gob Other Night where like you know like someone's like someone was like reading
like a newspaper and one of the characters just want to be like I just want
to like grab it like shove it in their face like that kind of like these sort of like passive,
thoughts of heightened emotions and like things like that that got like worked

(50:12):
into her work like it's just so human and it's so inspired by just being alive
and experiencing the world.
And and that's when I was like, oh, I can do that.
It's not going to be Rachel's experience, but I can experience things and use

(50:33):
that with my lived experience of just, again,
just being alive and experiencing a range of emotions throughout the day from
the different activities I do.
And and it's not going to be Rachel's, but it's going to be mine.
And it's and i can do something like
that or there's a path to get there and that's the same for everyone listening

(50:54):
to it's like if you're an aspiring creator it's like you can do that and and
it's not going to be rachel's but it's going to be yours and it's going to be
your version of what she did.
And part of that came from Rachel's needless humility.

(51:16):
It never, like talking to Rachel, and again, like if people had her as a teacher
or a professor, if people, like anything, it's, she never felt like she was.
She never put herself above other people.
She never made it feel like I have this knowledge and you have to come to me

(51:39):
and I will let you get piece by piece over time.
It's like no she was very open she was down
to earth she was human in that respect and that
accessibility that openness about writing and
her stories and just her willingness to talk to people about so many things

(51:59):
that that i think allowed me and other people that knew her to be like i can
do this you know but it's it's going to be mine so beautiful thank you uh do you want
to steer our conversation toward uh eventually
our question of the week but i wanted to talk
about one of the shared loves of both you and rachel sure that you've mentioned

(52:22):
elsewhere but that being the works of philip k dick yes and specifically a scanner
darkly and i'd really like to know like so he's a bit of a blind spot in my
sci-fi knowledge but i think he's an incredibly fascinating figure,
but like, where would you say you see his influence within Rachel's writing?

(52:43):
Well, in particular with something like the scanner darkly, which is,
uh, both her and I's favorite Philip K. Dick novel, which I found out when I
was reading it and, you know, I was on the phone with her.
I mentioned it and she was like, Oh, that's my favorite, like,
uh, Philip K. Dick novel.
And she, she had mentioned that she was like, you know, it's, it's, uh.
It's a difficult read, like, emotionally. So she was like, yeah,

(53:04):
I couldn't read it again.
So I had to listen to the, you know, audio book to experience it again, which she did get to do.
But, I mean, a quick sort of way to sum up A Scander Darkly,
for some people that don't know, and it'll immediately click and everyone will be like, oh, duh.
Is um you could kind of boil that book

(53:26):
down to a bunch of people just wanted
to have a good time and they were punished for it so so
you can see a lot of that in in her work you know as well as my work it's certainly
uh very clear i think in the never-ending party that that idea is prevalent
so and how do you feel about the film adaptation of a scanner darkly i liked it enough i think

(53:53):
uh the the book was better i have been
meaning to re-watch it a close person
in my life chase uh we we've been
talking about watching it for like months so that
might be coming up uh rather quickly we still also have to because he's never
seen uh you know superman the movie from 1978 so we're gonna have to do that

(54:16):
soon too but uh but yeah scanner darkly just i love i it's a a gorgeous looking
movie, I think at least at the time. Oh, yeah.
But, but yeah, it's such a, like, God, the way the book ends,
it's just, uh, it's a really brutal book.
Um, don't, uh, you know, sure. If you're about to finish the book,

(54:37):
like try to do it like at the end of your day, don't like start your day being
like, I got one more, you know, got a few more chapters of a scared or dark,
like hang out before I start my day.
Like, don't, don't do that. but yeah and um i i recently uh reread uh the minority
report uh short story too which is excellent if your only experience was the

(54:58):
the movie of that the short story is wildly different.
Like like the movie is kind of a very basic idea but like the short story has
like two or three more twists than sort of the movie and also uh doubles down
on sort of this like a more negative nature.

(55:19):
I think it's also fascinating, too, that I would think it's fair to say that a lot of Philip K.
Dick's work is at least somewhat cynical, whereas, you know,
Rachel's a very sort of like optimistic person,
which I think at my core, like I also I love cynicism, but sort of at my core, I'm I'm an optimist.

(55:42):
But please don't tell anybody, which I think was also part of how Rachel and I just gelled well.
And just since you mentioned the visual style of A Scanner Darkly,
I'm curious, have you seen Waking Life from Richard Linklater as well?
You know, I haven't seen that one, but the cover to the DVD has burned into

(56:03):
my mind because I worked on a Hollywood video.
So I can picture it. But you're going to make me do this Richard Linklater double
feature soon. It's going to happen. Yeah.
Yeah, like my girlfriend's been showing me some Richard Linklater stuff this last year.
And yeah, Waking Life is now one of my favorite movies.
Like Midnight Gospel is one of my all time favorite shows.

(56:27):
Yeah, there's I've always been sad that I've not been able to find anything
else anywhere close to that thing.
Like there's just not other media like it. But Waking Life is like the one other
thing that I can actually point to.
Yes this is this scratches that
exact same itch but in a bit more streamlined way there's

(56:48):
some stuff that all phil k dick fans will love
that's in there but i won't spoil that but i think it's going to be a real treat
for uh you and chase if you if you chase uh yeah scanner darkly with waking
life i am i'm sure we will oh god the last movie i saw in theaters was robot dreams which is.

(57:09):
Based on a graphic novel have you seen that no it's it's
a gorgeous animated movie that's like i i think it was
a co-production with spain and france and
it's like there's almost no dialogue in it but it's
also a very queer movie because it's basically like
anthro they're all anthro people and it's
like you know male dog is looking

(57:31):
for like a partner and ends up getting
a robot to bill to be his partner and
the robot is very male coded and it's
like it's it's a trip for for people like people should seek that movie out
it is it is gorgeous it's cute it's queer it's it's a fun time so the uh question

(57:52):
of the week that i like to tie into my guest personal interest Chris,
wrapping back to Philip K.
Dick novels, what novel of his do you think is most in need of an adaptation
or most in need of a better adaptation based on things we've discussed so far?
You know, Minority Report is actually definitely up there. I rewatched it recently and...

(58:16):
Oof, it is, um, I think, especially now,
I think that movie ages rather poorly because there's this, like,
core to the movie that's, like, the, I don't know, it gets a little muddied with,
like, government bureaucracy and the cops and kind of, like,

(58:37):
that there are actually people within an authoritarian regime that would do the right thing.
Like these kind of things that just it's like this doesn't make any sense that
the short story is much more cynical and the short story,
the way that's done is more like we know there are flaws in this system,

(59:01):
but the system is too important.
So we would rather other people suffer for the sake of supporting this system
that we think is necessary.
That resonates that. And here's the thing.
That is an evergreen story because that is just true throughout history.

(59:23):
History i want to see the minority report adaptation
that does that rather than like
don't worry folks you know people that work within
an authoritarian regime there are some good eggs in there and they're watching
out for you and it's gonna be okay in the end you know it's oh god it's frustrating
yeah just like a month ago my girlfriend and i re-watched uh total recall uh

(59:47):
the original one of course yeah and it's weird watching that one now like i know
people talk about how you can really lean
toward the movie all being a dream but yeah the way
that just by virtue of being an 80s
action movie it's like everything that's weird about 80s action movies makes
this feel more like a dream now but i don't know if that was intended at the

(01:00:11):
time that's just how movies were especially uh paul verhoeven's movies were
but yeah like i I don't need another Total Recall remake,
but I think I would love to see a more direct adaptation of We Can Remember It For You Wholesale.
Yeah, I would do that. A more true version of that. I would also love to see
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and just call it that and do it closer to the book.

(01:00:38):
Blade Runner is one of my favorite movies, but those emotion boxes and things
like that in the book. And there's none of this like,
sean young love interesting like
deckard's already like married and like he has this like
kind of tired relationship with
his wife and stuff like that i want to see that you know i

(01:01:00):
i think it's actually i know there are people who have read the book who um
you know prefer the movie and i get it i love the movie but i also love the
book and i i would like to see that adapted But the one to me that's just the
more pressing is Minority Report,
because that's just such a horrible lesson at the end of that movie.

(01:01:23):
And I watched it again weeks ago, and I'm still like, how could they do that?
Now, Joe, you've been so incredible in sharing so much about Rachel.
And I feel like I have a much better feel for what she was like in person.
But I do want to make sure you have a moment to talk about all the exciting

(01:01:45):
things you're working on at the moment.
So yeah. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what they can expect
from you in the near future or recent projects they should be on the lookout for?
Sure. I do think the most important thing for me to plug here is the DC pride
and celebration of Rachel Pollack, which is available now.
Um, I would love for that to completely sell out. So if we could,

(01:02:06):
you know, make that happen, maybe we could get, you know, a reprint of her new God's run or something.
Like if we can show that there's, you know, interest in, in that,
you know, I also want to see her Tomahawk get reprinted that Vertigo visions
one shop, you know, that would be great.
You can still get the trade uh

(01:02:27):
through uh comiXology through dark horse of the
never-ending party still available so uh
you know please i i definitely want more people to check that out
didn't you uh have a hand in getting the trade
of um time breakers remade uh
you know a little bit i i've been
trying to get that done for years and i've

(01:02:49):
been working with uh you know chris and rachel on trying to
find a place we we almost got it at dover
publications but you know that didn't end up going anywhere um there was another
publisher that came close but it didn't happen and then um you know it was unfortunately
after um you know rachel hadn't passed at the time but got in touch with you know jordan at zoop.

(01:03:13):
And then that was able to happen. And, you know, I do love Time Breakers as well.
That was through the Helix imprint. So it was technically creator owned,
but through a DC imprint, the rights reverted back to Rachel and Chris.
And Chris is phenomenal.
And again, that's sort of like tying into Grant Morrison, Chris Weston,

(01:03:35):
other than doing a ton of stuff, doing some Judge Dredd. I love Judge Dredd.
It's so great. But he did The Filth with Grant Morrison.
So if people haven't checked that out, that's also like if you like Grant,
you haven't read The Filth.
Like that's a it's a very Grant book.

(01:03:56):
And Chris Wesson is just an incredible artist. But yes, I believe you could
probably still order copies of Time Breakers through that soup campaign. It's close.
I think it finished. But keep an eye out on that. I'm so I had all the issues
that I have all my issues signed by Rachel, but but definitely keep an eye out for that.

(01:04:18):
And then I have my first YA graphic novel came out in April,
King Arthur and the Knights of Justice, which you mentioned.
We what was it? There is, you know, a gay couple in that we made Lance and Breeze
gay and they're in a relationship together.
And it's it's cute. it's not like and
again in a very like in my effort to

(01:04:41):
sort of like avoid like 101 stuff it's it's very
matter of fact it's just there we don't have characters
who are like but how could they be you know there's
it's it's just it's just that's just part of the story and and you just deal
with it and then yeah i have that and then most the next thing i have out is

(01:05:02):
kardak the mystic which which is a one-shot through Archie that is out August 14th.
So there's a chance this is going to be out before Final Order cut off.
So you might even be able to reach out to your local comic shop.
And that is a revival of a Golden Age character, which is something I love.
And it rides that line of Archie superhero and Archie horror.

(01:05:29):
So I think if you like stuff like the Archie horror stuff, If you also like
stuff like that, like Jaguar, you know, one shot recently, I think you'll you'll like this.
I've seen all of the interiors inked now and Butch Mappa's art honestly completely blows me away.
I can't believe this book is going to look this good. So I hope people check that out as well.

(01:05:55):
Very cool. And small curiosity, I just saw today that Princess Guinevere and
the Jewel Writers is also getting graphic novel from Mad Cave.
And I know those cartoons shared some like creative DNA.
And just interesting, those are both getting comics this year.
Did you have any hand in that coming to life?

(01:06:15):
Or was that completely separate team? it's a
separate creative team i believe geordie belair is the writer on
that one but um but my editor lauren on uh
king arthur like she edited that as well um it's
it's the same um you know same license holder
so like uh okay but yeah i had
um part of how i ended up working on this is

(01:06:36):
you know i was asking adam like baltimore
2022 uh about like i.
Had wrapped up dahlia in in the dark at that point so i'd already done
a couple of things at mad cave it was like oh you know if there's anything else
like coming up you know i'd love to throw my hat in
the ring and they were like oh do you know like you
know like like just like oh out of curiosity you know like princess

(01:06:57):
guavier and the jewel riders i was like i i mean like i
i didn't watch as a kid but i did watch king arthur the knights of justice and
it was like oh okay so and then like later on like
reached out being like oh so you didn't know that like you
know we we have this do you want to work on it and then
um it worked out that way but i also
reached out to to people at

(01:07:18):
bad cave too was just like um i know i didn't work on
it but can you send me a copy of princess guinevere and the jewel
writers because i really want to read it so yeah that's
close enough to tokusatsu and transforming heroes i might see about getting
her on uh giant-sized violence just for that because like it got my oh yeah

(01:07:38):
no definitely um no and it's a gorgeous book people should definitely check that out for sure.
All right now uh joe our listeners want to keep tabs on you in the future to
follow your other projects where can they find you online you can find me on
twitter for as long as this site's still there who knows it might not be there

(01:08:00):
by the time this episode goes up and and blue sky,
at joe corallo so j-o-e-c-o-r-a-l-l-o and on instagram at corallo joe awesome
well thank you again, Joe, for coming on and sharing so much.
This was really excellent.
Like, yeah, you knocked it out of the park as far as bringing me up to speed

(01:08:22):
on what Rachel was like and, like, just her creative influences. This was incredible.
Thank you. I'm glad, really. I appreciate it. If the listeners at home have
requests or recommendations for comics or creators you'd like us to cover in
the future, you can send them our way on social media.
You can find us on the Transcending Comics Instagram and Facebook page,
on Twitter as at Transcend Comics, comics, or email us at transcendingcomics at gmail dot com.

(01:08:45):
We'd like to thank you again for giving our podcast a chance,
and give a shout out to Ray Day Parade for designing our logo.
Join us again next time as we continue transcending boundaries and exploring
the colorful world of trans, non-binary, and genderqueer representation in comic books of all kinds.
As the curtains fall on this episode of Transcending Comics,
remember that comics have the power to inspire change in countless worlds, including our own.

(01:09:06):
Keep reading, keep writing, and keep transcending.
Music.
Thank you.

(01:09:41):
You.