August 20, 2024 • 50 mins
This week, Eri and Tomi dive headfirst into the vat of comedy chemicals that is The People's Joker! We discuss everything we love about Vera Drew's incredible indie film, and how it changes our viewpoints on what we expect to see from trans representation in comic book films going forward.
You can buy The People's Joker on DVD, Blu-ray, and VHS from DiabolikDVD or Amazon today!
Don't forget to support our own first comic, When We Transform, currently live on Kickstarter! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tomitrembath/when-we-transform
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey folks, today's episode of Transcending Comics was originally recorded as
a Patreon bonus episode.
Ari and I got together to review The People's Joker from Vera Drew,
and we absolutely loved the film so much that we saw it in back-to-back shows.
But at the time of recording, this wasn't publicly available anywhere outside
of a very limited theatrical release, and we didn't want to encourage any piracy
(00:22):
of a movie we loved so much.
But we've decided to release this now because the movie is available for purchase
on DVD, Blu-ray, or VHS, and a special edition purple VHS tape at that.
Also, I'm going to be off at FlameCon, promoting both the podcast as well as
my comic, When We Transform, which is currently sitting at 75% on Kickstarter
(00:44):
and has been listed as a campaign they love.
So please if you're hearing this one go buy
the people's joker uh there are spoilers ahead but this movie is super worth
seeing spoilers are no and support when we transform because uh i've spent plenty
of time talking about comics and i'd really like to change things up and start
making my own and you can help make that dream a reality so enjoy the review
(01:06):
and hopefully i'll see you at flamecon.
Music.
Welcome to Transcending Comics, a podcast dedicated to trans representation
(01:29):
in comic books, manga, and webtoons, both on-panel and behind the scenes.
I'm your host, Tommy, and joining me today once again is my literary expert,
fashion consultant, and partner, Ari. Welcome back to the show. Hey!
Today, we're once again taking a look at media outside the realm of print comics
with a discussion about The People's Joker, a comic book parody film and trans
(01:51):
reimagining of the Joker's origin story that's now being screened in select
theaters across the United States.
Aerie, I know you and I just got out of seeing the film a second time just about
two hours ago now, and I think it goes without saying that you and I are both
big fans of the movie already.
Very big fan, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about your initial thoughts on the film. Oh, wow.
(02:13):
So it's one of those. I love movies and I hear a lot about movies.
So I've been hearing about it for a minute and it was one of those of like I
really want to see it and kept hearing really good things.
But whenever I would see the previews for it or hear about it,
I'd always kind of be like, oh, it just kind of looks like a feature length,
(02:34):
like YouTube segment or something, you know, like a YouTube essay.
Or something uh where no like
again this is my second time seeing it it's i
can't highly recommend enough seeing it in
the theater i think what blew me away the most is you know i was expecting something
(02:54):
very handmade like a youtube video or something and i got like a full cinema
experience like that's what going to an independent movie should be not seeing like a clone of like a
Martin Scorsese movie or something you know like this
was pure gonzo independent cinema and
(03:15):
I loved it yeah like I came out of this feeling like
one I'd never seen anything like this
before and it has just such a unique style unto itself and a unique like visual
representation and like was just clearly so personal to the main creative behind
it Vera Drew who co-wrote it then also so directed it, starred in it, edited it,
(03:39):
that it just seems so unique to one person's creative vision.
And I was literally saying as we got off the theater that first night here,
it was like, that was perfect, no notes.
I don't see how I could say there was anything that should have been changed or improved upon.
This is unlike anything I've seen and just fantastic.
Such a perfect encapsulation of the idea of a
(04:02):
trans reimagining of the joker that's unique to one person's
own personal trans experience and like yeah
i we came out and i came out of the theater i
should say and i mean we were like we need
to get as many people as possible to see this again so that was
today was our attempt to get more people to come with us to
the theater and yeah just give it a second viewing
(04:23):
before doing an episode on it and yeah i
still loved this time like i got just as
much enjoyment out of it gotta notice a few more things i didn't
the last time and can now say that
it's not just that initial shock of seeing something so new
i'm like this yeah that's as good as i remember it being two
three days ago yeah i actually um you know
(04:43):
this but i spent all of last night watching all
of the old uh well from my childhood uh
batman man movies like i did uh batman
the first one through uh batman forever
i'm gonna save batman robin to watch
it with you but uh um but and something you hit on too with that was uh it's
(05:07):
her story and i really love that it's not like trying to tell anyone else's
story it's not trying Trying to speak for everyone else. It's telling her story.
But in telling her story. So many of us can.
Can recognize that story. And
that's the really nice part. Is like I identified. And I know you did too.
(05:30):
With so much stuff in this movie.
It's perhaps the most seen. I've ever felt. By a movie as far as being trans. Is concerned.
Like I came out of this movie feeling like. Like, I no longer really felt any
need to see Marvel or DC take their attempt at a trans narrative because I just
know anything that a major studio puts out isn't going to be nearly as faithful
(05:54):
to it as this is or it's going to be just so saturated for a wider audience.
I don't feel the need to see that
because i now have this film that i feel like is maybe the
best representation of like putting a creative
fantasy lens over a trans experience and like
as a trans creator of comic book
(06:15):
related media like this is everything i aspire
to make like there's some parallels with like
my it's morphin time coming out special i did down to
even a lot of batman cultural like gay batman cultural
references but i guess
it's hard to put to words everything this movie
made me feel but like i know vera has
(06:35):
spoken in interviews about how much of her own experience was
put into this movie she specifically wanted to make a
batman movie that was like a trans take
on the batman mythos that's like i mean
about a trans coming of age film and mommy issues and
those are both there in spades uh but
yeah it just didn't feel like every other film i've seen that
(06:58):
does that and it wasn't nearly as tragic as
most trans films are like this was just such a good representation of what it's
like to meet another trans person for the first time and be seen as a trans
person for the first time and just like that journey of self-discovery through
it and understanding what all this is seeing those elements through childhood
and getting the little pieces that were hints at it.
(07:20):
And yeah, that's everything I want to depict in a trans protagonist in my own storytelling.
Yeah. And the other thing I like about it is you don't have to be a nerd to appreciate it.
Like, yeah, I know more about comic books and stuff now.
But other than that, I'm like a 44 year old woman that pretty much just knows,
(07:42):
you know, the movies. But it just speaks.
And honestly, you can be anyone and enjoy it.
Really at its heart it's a really good movie
about relationships and dealing with
narcissism and finding yourself it's just
such a good movie unto itself just just alone and kind of the fact that it's
(08:05):
not trying to do any sort of heavy lifting or anything it's just telling this
really true honest story like that's what's gonna make so many people relate
to it and And yeah, especially trans people,
it is it really does a good job of covering the trans experience.
As we dive into the film and that specific story, I want to say up front that
(08:28):
we're going to do our best to avoid spoilers in this episode.
Or we're we're at least not going to take you through the entire plot and give it away.
But please, if the film is screening near you or you're listening in the future
when this is available on home release, should that day come,
Please try and watch the film before listening to this episode,
because I promise it's worth your time.
(08:49):
Even if you're not specifically into trans cinema, like, the first showing we
saw was a theater full of mostly cis-presenting folk, and they clearly got a
huge kick out of this film.
And I'm confident that anyone who listens to this podcast will likely do the
same, regardless of your own personal gender identity.
(09:09):
And just seeing the amount of laughs that people that presumably don't have
the live trans experience were getting out of this film made me realize like
this is this is everything trans cinema should try to be when it's reaching
out to even just a slightly larger audience.
Like it's clearly so accessible for even outsiders.
And like while there is a lot of good trans related jokes, for the most part,
(09:32):
it's all jokes that the mainstream can at least be in on as well.
And I think that really surprised me going into it just because of how specific it gets the experience.
There's only maybe like two or three jokes. I'm like, you might need to be a
little in the know to get that one.
And yeah more than anything it's about being an
outcast and so many of you know so many people
will be able to relate to that uh because a
(09:54):
lot of the other characters and her friends and stuff are just the outcast people
you know the like the cool hipster are outcast people that kind of you meet
when you get out on your own and it's a good representation of that as well but and there are
definitely plenty of like little trans in in
(10:15):
jokes in there too you know for us but yeah
i think i would like to start out with telling a little bit about this film's
story not the plot necessarily but more how it's come to be because i mean even
in telling a lot of our friends about this like our various trans group chats
a lot of people hadn't heard of it and there's definitely Definitely a reason for that.
(10:37):
I think like this has had a long, tenuous journey.
I know the film actually first premiered in 2022 with the Toronto Film Festival,
but only had a single screening.
And for the last two years, almost any review that's gone up online has been
about like how the reviewer has seen this trans Joker film that you'll likely never see.
(10:58):
So it's been a pretty big deal that it's now getting
a wide release across the united states playing in
like over 70 theaters i think uh and yeah
took an additional two years there was a lot of backlash
from warner brothers around this film clearly uh
like i know they sent not quite a cease and desist letter but still kind of
(11:19):
a like hey cut your shit out letter the night of its first screening so there's
been a lot of hesitation to put it out there a lot of talks with lawyers to
To make sure that this fits within film parody law or fair use parody law.
And having now seen the movie, I have to say, like, I would unequivocally say
(11:39):
that I think that does apply to this movie.
Like, even though it clearly shows Batman and, like, other known DC-related
characters, like, they all look so different.
You would never see them and think, like, oh, am I watching Suicide Squad or
am I watching a Zack Snyder Batman movie?
Like, no, it's clearly like a goofy reimagining or like a fake CGI looking Batman
(12:02):
that looks like a closer to an action figure.
Like, it's just so clearly not something that's being made by the studio. Yeah.
Imagine how something like scary movie or epic
movie depicts major film superheroes and characters
and then times that by 10 as far
as like making it look different making it look both cheaper
and stylized to fit its own means uh
(12:25):
saturday night live doesn't get sued every time they do a batman sketch yeah
it's like more creative versions of that and exactly the snl style of like skit
humor is present but usually more as the butt of jokes here and i freaking love that in the movie,
yeah don't know what made me think of uh snl.
(12:48):
Yeah that was one thing i really appreciated about this
like we hear trans coming of age comic book
inspired movie and right well that's going to be a tommy movie
for sure like this is her thing but then
we went and saw it and it was like almost everything you
loved growing up or like kind of playing into that whole like
huge snl fangirl moments and
(13:09):
like there was no one snl fangirl that was
huge yeah this and that really like
that part of the movie really touched it affected me
the same thing i wanted to be a cast member and as
you grow older and realize how awful it
is and how awful lauren michaels is like you're
(13:29):
just like oh and that's another
other thing i really loved about the movie is like a lot
of the things she grew up and loved i
did too and all of those things are really cringe
now like woody allen and louis
ck and like and it's i mean these aren't things i ever mentioned that i loved
(13:51):
and it's it's really i think brave and awesome of her to be like no this was
a part of who i am and even though So it's been totally tarnished and it's awful
and makes me feel gross and cringy.
This is a part of who I was. And that's such a big part of the movie.
And that's another reason why I think the copyright stuff is such bullshit,
(14:15):
is it's all kind of set dressing for this different story of who she is and
all of this stuff that created her.
And I think it's clear, even though there's a lot of good jokes about DC characters, Like I,
I see a lot more like the SNL and history of comedy influence on this film more
(14:35):
than anything that's like, oh, look at all these comic book Easter eggs,
which they're there and there's plenty of them and there's good ones.
But like, I know that this project was originally pitched as like,
hey, let's re-edit Todd Phillips's Joker as like a trans coming of age film
or like do that with other Batman movies.
And at a certain point, they just realized it'd be easier and better if they
(14:59):
just made their own movie.
And yeah, they were right. I don't know who would have seen this if it was just
a remix of the Joker or other Batman films, but this, I feel like,
is going to have such a unique history and identity to itself.
And it's I mean, this is what cult classic films are made of right here.
And I mean, if it gets a home release, like you can bet that we'll be making
(15:23):
events out of showing this to people because it's something that I think every
trans film enjoyer, every trans comic book fan, every trans nerd should absolutely see.
Yes. And I really like, you know, there's a certain feeling of it of when you're
trans, when you're different, you feel suddenly villainized.
(15:45):
And especially with us, you know, and it gets into the groomer stuff and all
of that and does something really awesome with it that I don't want to spoil.
But like you feel villainized constantly and you feel it when you're looking
for a job. You feel it when you're going into the bank or whatever.
(16:06):
It's you feel like a villain. You feel just people are looking at you,
the microaggression, stuff like that, and going into it, knowing it's going
to have a lot of villains in it.
And then all of the villains are just these lovable, sweet characters who are
just outcasts and shit on by society.
(16:27):
But they're all really good people. and that's so
sweet and really really the queer experience yeah
like all the little moments they show not just with
like the realizations but like going out dressed femme
for the first time but like people not judging because they're
in clown makeup and just like finding those early excuses to dress how you want
(16:48):
but also get away with it like i think we've all been there like yeah we're
We're just going to dress up on Halloween or if we go hard in like more of a
drag style than maybe the just trans woman style we want to be.
People might give it a little more pass. Less so now.
That might not fly as well now. But back when RuPaul was in his heyday, a little better.
(17:10):
And of course, the rich white guy, Bruce Wayne, can get away with it.
You know, like everyone loves it when he does it. but yeah I feel like this
is the first movie to really lean into the creepy Robin aspects and yeah like.
Kind of a weird groomer side of batman and i'm glad
to see finally a film doesn't shy away from that and like is framed in such
(17:33):
a way that it can depict that for as messed up and damaging for kids as it is
and in a really good responsible way like it's not exploitative it's not used as a joke,
there's some deep-rooted stuff in in the batman backstory the intention and how this film goes
(17:54):
about like pointing that out i think
it's really admirable like i mean a lot of the film
is framed around the first like toxic relationship that
awakens a lot of the trans realizations like between
the main character who's a bit more like
a todd phillips meets caesar romero joker
falling in love with more of a jared leto
(18:15):
inspired one they refer to as mr j and like
literally stopping the movie and narrating to
the audience like hey domestic abuse looks very
specific in most movies so i didn't recognize this
growing up but let me list off these signs that were there and every time they
have one of those moments that like just film language often glorifies toxic
(18:40):
or narcissistic relationships like the film still stops like we will show you
the list again that That isn't romantic.
I appreciated that so much. Yeah. For like questioning people and early trans
people, like I hope that getting to see a possible path you could have gone down.
Like I really hope this maybe helps people realize they're heading into a toxic
(19:02):
relationship or avoiding some kind of toxic narcissistic relationship because
like one of the hardest things about that first year or so of transitioning
is the first time you fall in love as a trans
person and like this does a great job depicting that like hey the first person
that sees me as myself is really toxic and like how do you feel any other way
(19:23):
than that this is like the person for you or the only person that understands
you when they're the first person that sees you,
And I think this is a maybe the most important trans narrative that can be out
there for people early on in their experience.
Agreed. Yeah. Or later on, too. And that's kind of what's really great about it.
(19:44):
It's so far reaching with that. Now, one thing that I think so,
we've mentioned that there's like not really any film that looks quite like this.
But one thing that I think will help it be classified in the future is that
like this has so much of the unique filmmaking workarounds that a lot of people found during COVID.
(20:06):
And I can't point to like specific things that multiple films have done because
I feel like so many things have found different ways to go about it.
But they don't play it up in this.
And I it took me until a second watch to really start to own it on this.
But it clearly is like a COVID period film, because I know the idea for it only came in 2019.
(20:28):
And with the first release happening in 2022, like I don't see any way that
that timeline works out without this mostly being filmed during COVID.
And on the second watch, I started to notice that there's not many scenes where
more than two characters are on the screen at the same time.
Or just like a lot of scenes that are just two people that are filmed in such
(20:50):
a way that clearly these people could have been in two different locations for it.
And because the way it just so drastically changes style scene to scene,
just going from like being our main human characters to the next scene,
it's kind of simplistic animation.
Then the next it's dolls, then back to humans.
(21:11):
And now there's puppets. and like it's it morphs
so seamlessly between those scenes that it gives you so many opportunities that
like oh hey this one-on-one interaction that maybe we can't film right now can
instead just be done with voiceover and it still feels just as emotional because
now we can like play this really intimate scene with cartoons and like no one even has to like.
(21:31):
Put themselves in a suggestive position like sexualizing themselves on film
because now it's a home movies looking character.
They look like home movies actually. It's really cute. And the editing is brilliant.
Yeah. And the whole movie is like even all of the live action parts,
everything is green screen.
(21:52):
And like, I know that sounds like a criticism.
It is not like the movie looks amazing.
And so different and cool because of
it again it's it's not like anything you've seen
i think this is a really important one now like regarding
the ai art discussion which
(22:13):
i mean its first release kind of predates a lot of that but so
much of the cgi in this is intentionally bad
or like it leans into
it like the poison ivy for instance shows up
and she looks like a ps1 video game
character and it actually works to
the film's credit like they make it fit the film's visual style and
(22:36):
it just made me realize that like okay if we can
do this like make this cheap of special effects look good and fit with the movie
and not take me out of it then i really don't think we need to be taking artists
jobs away by like using ai art or there are better workarounds we can do that
don't take away from the film and if anything add to the film and
(22:58):
make it clear that someone is putting their visual statement onto the film by
leaning into cheaper special effects rather than exploiting underpaid CGI artists or relying on AI art.
The Batcave is the original Doom.
Oh, yeah. I kept this Minecraft-looking ass Batcave all the time.
(23:24):
I am curious, though, with all these, like, reimaginings of the characters,
like, in different styles, some are animated, some are props, some are puppets.
Aerie, did you have any particular favorites from the group?
Ooh, like, I think probably Poison Ivy. Like, it's really funny.
I do like the animated Clark Kent and Lois Lane they have, like,
(23:47):
as news reporters through the movie.
I feel like they were really on point with like corporate
news or just like yeah fluff
pieces and stuff i love the interpretation of like
the ongoing events of the film that kind of
had a robocop feel of it too of like
the news telling you what's kind of happening in the
(24:08):
plot and it's like really satirical um and
yeah a lot of that stuff i didn't catch until the
second viewing like a lot of little added details that
they have in the news reports and uh the
the angry radio guy that you keep hearing
as well um there's a lot of little hidden details that you get the second time
(24:30):
watching it that we both really enjoyed i think yeah and i like that you bring
up robocop because it does really have those elements like there's a lot of
uh fake media within the media that helps with the world building.
And that's another thing I really have to admire this movie on,
is it does set up a very interesting world that hints at a lot of things that made this world as it is.
(24:52):
They refer to these cyber wars a lot, and it's clearly inspired by Frank Miller,
Dark Knight Returns-style events, and just creates this very alternate world
where the characters we associate with as Batman villains
are more almost like aspiring actors
and comedians and performers and yeah
(25:13):
i really like that that this gave us like super villain
origin story stuff without having to go like the todd phillips joker route or
like cruella or do anything like that like they for the most part you don't
see them do that much like evil stuff other than like hacking a broadcast and
then they They mentioned like inspiring crime among other people.
(25:34):
Yeah, they're more just fighting back.
And it's totally a statement about the whole comedy is so woke now movement
of like, well, maybe y'all should take a step back and let other people like do it.
You know, it's so saturated right now.
And it's this is a really good movie about taking it back, like make comedy more diverse.
(25:57):
And it's ridiculous that that's such a, Oh my God, you know.
Controversial type of statement of make comedy diverse, you know,
and that comedy doesn't have to punch down to be funny.
Like there's plenty of queer jokes in this. There's plenty of,
you know, but never does it punch down.
Everything's funny. It's not exploitative or gross. Like,
(26:22):
It's a great take it back movie. And in the end, like it's fairly sympathetic,
even with some of the characters that we've seen, like be non accepting in the film.
Or like, I really like the closure they come around to with the relationship with the mom.
And yeah, I just thought that was really beautiful the way they humanize someone
(26:43):
who's been depicted as like, yeah, a transphobe through the movie.
And it doesn't justify anything she's done but you
at least like understand where she's coming
from or how like she doesn't want her son to experience
the uh like women's oppression experience she's gone through and yeah like that
just was so touching and like a great way to put this like it didn't just end
(27:05):
with a and f my transphobic parent moment like they didn't need to do that but
i think that's huge of them that they did same thing with the narcissistic uh partner.
Yeah, actually has a really touching closure point to it as well,
which, wow, I don't see that enough.
Like, just because someone is narcissistic and working out their own issues
(27:27):
and not a good person for you to be with doesn't mean that awfulness should happen to them.
They should try to get better and be a better person.
That doesn't mean you have to be there while that
happens you know like take care of yourself but yeah
it was just really nice seeing a
relationship like that portrayed so well
(27:50):
and not negatively like the
narcissism is negative but like it's just really good to see characters deal
with that in a good mature way now one thing that i felt related to my experience
big time like i won't go into the specifics to avoid spoilers but But towards the end,
(28:11):
the movie caps off with like a very psychedelic ego death esque sequence that
also allows the film to tap into like the bigger cosmic multiversal aspects of superhero movies.
That one I think is awesome. They encapsulated like the full superhero mythos
into one parody movie and like take it as far as you possibly can with a single character.
(28:34):
But it really makes me wonder like how much of this trippy end sequence is part
of Vera Drew's own trans journey because like yeah a psychedelic experience
was huge in my own trans awakening and I know that's fairly common with others.
I've met many a trans gal that say like it was on a psychedelic trip that they
(28:54):
started to come to terms with being trans.
So like, I mean, after this, Vera Drew has to be like one of the people I would
most like to have on this show was an interviewee one day.
And I would love to hear all about like the specifics that went into this and
specifically that end sequence.
And yeah, that last 15 minutes is so I think that's going to really hit trans people the most.
(29:20):
I think that's the one segment of the movie. A lot of people will be like,
hmm, that was cool, but I don't really get it or whatever.
Whereas like every trans person that watches that movie, I think is going to
be really touched by the end and really get it.
And even me, I did not have a psychedelic experience for my coming out.
(29:42):
Mine was just more like, I'm 40 and it's about time.
But even me, the stuff she's touching on in that last 15 minutes hit really
hard in a good way, in just a beautiful way, a point that we all need to reach.
I do want to ask, like, since this gave me everything I think I could possibly
(30:06):
want from a trans comic book movie,
is there anything that you can think of that you would like to see in future
comic films with trans inclusion?
Like whenever Marvel and DC gets around to including an openly trans character
in one of their films or just seeing other trans media from other comic books put to screen?
(30:27):
Yeah, and I trans creators.
I think without a doubt, this is what made this good.
And, you know, like, and it's not just trans people.
I mean, studios do this with everybody of like, they don't want to replace their
rich white cis people, but they'll hire them to, you know, try to place marginalized people in media.
(30:50):
And it just doesn't work because they don't know what stories they're telling.
So getting creators to tell their own stories is really the difference.
I'm so tired of the same narrative.
Can we please change it up and hear other voices?
Yeah, and I think maybe that's what makes this stand out, especially when superhero
(31:11):
movies have hit such a point of like.
Saturation and also just like stasis or
like they bleed together so much now especially
the marvel cinematic universe films uh so
i think seeing just such a different voice and expression brought
to this world of like dc comics was so
refreshing and i hope this reception like
(31:34):
helps turn dc around and maybe
even embrace this movie because like yeah this
is something dc never would have made and
i think it actually is pretty respectful to everything in the
dc universe uh makes jokes that like
james james gunn would make any joke in this movie and like i bet if james gunn
(31:55):
saw this he'd be like guys let's let this well let's bump this up this is awesome
and like let's turn around our image a bit they need to take advantage of it
and not can it because Because it's like,
it can only do good things for them, to be quite honest. It's been getting rave reviews.
People love it. So just embrace that. As a studio, that's what you should be
(32:19):
responding to of people like this and people are paying to go see it.
So, yeah. Ka-ching. Get that money, Warner.
Corner uh i would definitely
agree with you that i guess like any future comic book trans
representation i just want to see trans voices given a platform as for like
(32:39):
marvel and dc characters like i guess unless we're gonna get some very personalized
voice brought to one of their films i would i think this actually makes me feel
like i just want a trans character to
exist in one of these films and not any kind of
deal to be made out of it like i think it should be clear that
they're trans and not hinted at so we can actually get some clear
(33:02):
representation but it's like this said everything about the trans experience
that i need it to so if we can just show that a character is now their current
gender but maybe in a flashback was not their current gender and that's just
about all they ever say about it that'd be fine by me like i don't see
a way that Marvel or DC expressed one of these experiences better.
(33:24):
Unless they give someone with our
perspective a film like Into the
Spider-Verse or something they can stylize and break the Marvel mold so much
so that they can at least take a character like Spider-Man or other major character
and imbue what already makes that character great with how trans people already
(33:45):
see their own experiences in this character with two lives or two identities
they're trying to balance.
And here's the representation I've seen in the past year. I got three.
So the first one is Hari Neff and the Barbie movie. That was surreal.
That was amazing. I love her. And that role was adorable and wonderful.
(34:09):
And so that was just a moment seeing that in the theater.
And then the next was Monica, which is a really good artsy movie that a lot
of people would probably be bored.
It's a character study and just really slow.
But beautiful and then there's this
and this compared to the others not you
(34:30):
know dissing them or whatever but just mind blown because those were you know
just little kind of tiny things whereas this was such a wonderful giant artistic
statement from a trans person uh the third one i thought you were going to mention
was uh going to be monkey man oh yeah yeah true
(34:50):
and also yeah i forgot about that
so four because that also was a we were like
literally cheering in the theater during monkey man
and uh seeing the hijra represented is
something i've wanted to see for so long so
that that was super awesome yeah like i don't know how much we can we're i don't
(35:11):
know how much we're able to label that a trans experience but it's undoubtedly
a gender non-conforming experience because it is just culturally a very different
relationship to one's own gender and transitioning but yeah,
Monkey Man's trans representation.
Is probably going to be the best of the year.
I'm not including this one since this could count as a 2022 or 2023 film,
(35:34):
but as far as actually, officially, objectively 2024 films,
I will be shocked if Monkey Man does not have the best trans representation
of the year, so cool to just see this,
Badass group of trans and gender non-conforming warrior monks.
Uh, that like not being a huge, huge part of their story.
Uh, but still like, yeah, just helping represent like, yeah,
(35:57):
we're kind of outcast, but we also are like non-dual or like can balance two
different aspects of ourselves. And, and,
Yeah, like I can't believe they let like the group of basically Jedi for that movie.
Trans monks. Monkey Man's awesome. See it if you haven't already. It's so cool. Yeah.
(36:18):
And then back to kind of what I was saying before about trans creators.
I wanted to stress to all studios and especially Warner Brothers. Y'all leave Lana alone.
Let Lana do whatever she wants. Don't make Lana direct like a trans Batman movie or something.
Thing we're talking lana wachowski yeah
yeah okay it's like oh we're trying to sing we'll get lana like
(36:39):
no no let her do
whatever she wants and now before we
get into like suggestions for other
films for those that like this uh do you have any final points
about the movie you'd like to bring up yes i do actually
something we have not mentioned yet and was just one
of my favorite parts of the movie uh and i can't
(37:02):
believe i'm saying this but the penguin yeah like
what a good little ally wow
like what an awesome ally
and they're out there and i'm glad there was some good cis ally representation
because he is so sweet and wonderful and most definitely my favorite character
(37:24):
in the movie yeah he is the cis friend every trans person wants to have at their side and like.
Just given that it is the Penguin when he first showed up, I'm like,
oh, this is this is going to end badly or they're going to have some terrible falling out.
He's going to betray the Joker, the Harley Quinn.
But no, he's a solid dude throughout.
(37:44):
He's a real stand up guy. He's really supportive of like Joker expressing the
way they want and pointing out like, have you seen this group of outcasts that you live with?
Like, no one's going to care if you show up with makeup on, like embrace it.
But and yeah, like they are absolutely ally goals.
And like, I know we're in, I guess, a period of great penguin representation
(38:08):
or getting great penguins in our Batman related media. And this is no exception.
He's got some of the best jokes, some of the best moments in the movie and such
a lovable character. He's just such a lovable character.
Yeah. Like, I don't know why I love that character so much, but I do.
He makes me happy whenever he's on screen.
(38:32):
Anything else? I think that's it.
So I did want to have just a moment where we talked about like other films that
people should see if they really liked this movie.
Like, obviously, nothing's going to scratch the exact same itch,
but I think there are some very creative,
subversive takes on common media or just weird indie films that I think people
(38:58):
should check out if they like this.
Eri, I know that there were like a lot of like artistic and indie directors
that you kind of recognize their style in this movie, especially like with the
use of dolls and puppets in some parts.
I am an uncultured swine that didn't know any of those so I thought I'd kick
off and ask for who you would say if you like this weird avant-garde filming style uh.
(39:24):
Yeah filmmakers and films people should check out yeah and
make sure to check out all of these people's early
work because a lot of them kind of like their work
is completely different and in studios now but like uh one is todd haynes uh
he did the karen carpenter story one of the great seminal queer filmmakers and
(39:45):
uh he did the karen carpenter story all with barbie dolls and not like Like
they all they're all weird Barbie dolls.
They've seen better days, these Barbie dolls.
And that's a really fun one. Very mixed media like this.
Another Greg Racky is very much like this, especially his early stuff.
(40:07):
He's actually he directed a lot of episodes of Riverdale recently. So he's come really far.
But yeah, a lot of his early stuff. of doom generation nowhere
um mysterious skin is really
good but that's kind of when he started being a little bit
more of a standard filmmaker but
still a great queer film and then uh yeah
(40:30):
those were the the two big ones um i
was really thinking of oh and gus van sant my own
private idaho very much has the same kind
of grainy independent feel to it now
the first one i'll all suggest uh take with a grain of salt because
we won't see it for another week or two but there
were a lot of trailers ahead of this one for uh the film she is conan that really
(40:54):
intrigued me and had me really excited to check that out when that gets screened
at the same indie theater we saw the people's joker at like yeah it seems to
be like a gender-bent reimagining of conan across.
Like six different time periods but with following one
female barbarian and it also
looks very like hyper stylized and
(41:16):
unlike anything i've seen before like i get that they're calling it conan but
this has very little resemblance to any other conan the barbarian media we've
seen in film so far if you want to have some fun go on imdb and look at the
current uh comments on the she
is Conan page and it's all bros are just like, this is not Conan. Not fair.
(41:41):
It's like, what would make you think? Like I saw this trailer and like,
if I was a Conan bro, I would know to stay away.
And I love Conan too. Like, don't get me wrong, but like, yeah,
I, I know I'm in for a lesbian movie and I'm very happy about that.
Now, the other one that comes to mind for me that I just think all queer people
(42:03):
People should check this out, at least if you're not, like, easily offended.
But Dix the Musical has some elements of this, like...
It's this is the other film that we've recently made
an event out of showing our friends just because it's without
a doubt the funniest movie i've seen in a very long
time it does some similar stuff with the like intentionally cheap
(42:25):
effects even as a recurring theme of things
being fake and shitty looking uh but
like i mean it's it's gay people playing over
the top straight people and like doing a caricature
of like a straight cishet bro mentality
i guess worst so yeah like
(42:47):
it does get offensive but like at the expense of
like the most toxic aspects of like straight guy
culture so like yeah if you can't if
you're easily offended or like off put by a
subversive humor maybe not for you but like yeah if you are missing good comedy
movies and want a good queer one at that like this will not disappoint our friends
(43:09):
were literally crying at this and we had to watch with subtitles otherwise a
lot of jokes would have been missed we were laughing so loudly.
It's a great movie i love sewer boys
now uh for a closing question
of the week i have for this episode i wanted to ask
you ari what other comic book
(43:30):
or intellectual property or other big series
franchise would you like to see subverted in
a similar fashion uh potentially also integrating trans
themes oh it's oh
that's a hard one because i'm not the biggest fan of
that and honestly that's why i was kind of like didn't think
i would like this movie as much as i did um but wow that's a tough one um you
(43:57):
always pop these up and it's like um because it's a hard one to answer it because
like normally I would answer my first one would be like the Batman villains.
Because they've just always seemed so queer to me
um do you want me to go first to give
you a minute to ruminate on that yeah i think i have my
(44:18):
answer now and it's really silly but go on so i
mean i every time i come across terminator media
my mind just races to all
of the places that franchise hasn't gone yet or like has only dipped its toes
in and usually not very well But like I really want to see something where Skynet
(44:39):
is depicted sympathetically and maybe there could be some level of trans allegory
to it or it's like identity.
Maybe you could follow a T-1000 that like, yeah, that's literally gender fluid, gender liquid steel.
But Terminator Genisys is infamously like the worst Terminator movie.
But I think it has some of the most interesting ideas of any of those films
(45:01):
because it does just weird stuff that doesn't feel like a Terminator movie.
And I really think that maybe only got the Terminator label late in its production because of it.
But the idea that like, hey, maybe Skynet doesn't have to be a bad guy.
Like every time it's killed humanity, it's been on like its first day being sentient.
So maybe if we keep delaying Judgment Day and keep letting technology progress
(45:25):
and maybe let Skynet take shape in other ways, maybe it can be our friend or
maybe there's like a better outcome for both of us.
And like, yeah, if you're gonna have, if you know something is coming in the
future, you can prepare for it and steer it in the right path. And like, yeah, it is.
I don't even know how in the wrong Skynet is in at least the later films when like.
(45:50):
It's, yes, sending people back
in time to kill John Connor, but it's also defending its own existence.
And, like, I mean, isn't that the least anyone can expect of, like, a sentient being?
Especially one that, like, was programmed to kill people?
Like, yeah, maybe, like, Skynet doesn't have to be the bad guy.
(46:10):
I would love to see something of, like, Skynet and John Connor kind of becoming one.
And that was something Genesis touched on, and I felt like it could have been really interesting.
But sadly it was just done in such a like unrealized way
or like something that felt closer to terminator fan
fiction than like a real exploration of where that
franchise could have gone yeah it did really feel like
(46:31):
terminator fan fiction there were parts of it that were like hit so hard and
like things i'd always wanted to see and then there was the rest of the movie
which was off it's some of the worst casting i've ever seen uh but um so i have mine It's a big one.
And first, I'm going to tell you the runner up I had in my head,
(46:55):
which I still really love. Yeah. Not my final answer.
Trolls. I just think trolls could be more queer.
It's already pretty queer, but I think you should just clear up trolls even
more because come on, trolls. We all know. Just come out.
You're basically a pride flag as is trolls. Yeah.
(47:17):
Yeah. you're a giant pride flag for kids and
I love you trolls don't stop being you but be your true you trolls so having
said that no I wanted to put a kind of F you edge on it and my choice is Harry Potter yeah yeah yeah,
(47:38):
take it back and like just I mean she obviously can't do shit with it like so
So just give it to someone else and make it queer as hell and trans it up because
it already lent itself so well.
I mean, they literally have potions that I dreamed about.
(48:00):
And I can't say as a kid because I was an adult when those came out.
But like the potions and stuff where you change what you look like and your
gender and stuff like, come on, you could so trans that up.
Like, get that mischief map out and just trans that whole Hogwarts.
And I mean, in a very similar style to the People's Joker, there is a production
(48:25):
house that I would like to see do this.
It's Starkid Productions, I believe they're called.
They're who did a very Potter musical and its sequels.
Which is the only Harry Potter-related media I can really suggest because it's
unofficial fan media, and, like, J.K.
Rowling or at least the powers that be are against it enough that the only recordings
(48:47):
of it are clearly, like, not professional on, like, a phone or a hand camera.
Good enough to watch, but not good enough to, like, release widely.
And they make great musicals out of all these properties doing really original
thoughts out of, like, Oregon Trail or Aladdin, but, like, with Jafar as the good guy.
So I would absolutely trust them with, like, maybe a trans guiding hand of doing
(49:09):
a trans reimagining of Harry Potter.
And, I mean, Dana Radcliffe seems like such a cool person. If they could get
him into it, I would love that.
Yes. But, yeah, just wrapping up here, I just want to say thank you again,
Ari, for joining me for this episode.
It's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you. It's always a pleasure being
on. If the listeners at home have requests or recommendations for comics or
(49:33):
other comic-inspired media you'd like us to cover in the future,
you can send them our way on social media.
You can find us on the Transcending Comics Instagram and Facebook page,
on Twitter as at TranscendComics, or email us at TranscendingComics at gmail.com.
We'd like to thank you again for giving our podcast a chance and give a special
shout-out to Ray Day Parade for designing our logo.
Our intro and outro music this week is A Little Soul and You've Been Starring by Carlson.
(49:56):
You can check out more of his music on Carlson.com. Join us again next time
as we continue transcending boundaries and exploring the colorful world of trans,
non-binary, and genderqueer representation in comic book media of all kinds.
As the curtains fall on this episode of Transcending Comics,
remember that comics have the power to inspire change in countless worlds, including our own.
Keep reading, keep writing, and keep transcending.
Hey folks, today's episode of Transcending Comics was originally recorded as
a Patreon bonus episode.
Ari and I got together to review The People's Joker from Vera Drew,
and we absolutely loved the film so much that we saw it in back-to-back shows.
But at the time of recording, this wasn't publicly available anywhere outside
of a very limited theatrical release, and we didn't want to encourage any piracy
(00:22):
of a movie we loved so much.
But we've decided to release this now because the movie is available for purchase
on DVD, Blu-ray, or VHS, and a special edition purple VHS tape at that.
Also, I'm going to be off at FlameCon, promoting both the podcast as well as
my comic, When We Transform, which is currently sitting at 75% on Kickstarter
(00:44):
and has been listed as a campaign they love.
So please if you're hearing this one go buy
the people's joker uh there are spoilers ahead but this movie is super worth
seeing spoilers are no and support when we transform because uh i've spent plenty
of time talking about comics and i'd really like to change things up and start
making my own and you can help make that dream a reality so enjoy the review
(01:06):
and hopefully i'll see you at flamecon.
Music.
Welcome to Transcending Comics, a podcast dedicated to trans representation
(01:29):
in comic books, manga, and webtoons, both on-panel and behind the scenes.
I'm your host, Tommy, and joining me today once again is my literary expert,
fashion consultant, and partner, Ari. Welcome back to the show. Hey!
Today, we're once again taking a look at media outside the realm of print comics
with a discussion about The People's Joker, a comic book parody film and trans
(01:51):
reimagining of the Joker's origin story that's now being screened in select
theaters across the United States.
Aerie, I know you and I just got out of seeing the film a second time just about
two hours ago now, and I think it goes without saying that you and I are both
big fans of the movie already.
Very big fan, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tell us a little bit about your initial thoughts on the film. Oh, wow.
(02:13):
So it's one of those. I love movies and I hear a lot about movies.
So I've been hearing about it for a minute and it was one of those of like I
really want to see it and kept hearing really good things.
But whenever I would see the previews for it or hear about it,
I'd always kind of be like, oh, it just kind of looks like a feature length,
(02:34):
like YouTube segment or something, you know, like a YouTube essay.
Or something uh where no like
again this is my second time seeing it it's i
can't highly recommend enough seeing it in
the theater i think what blew me away the most is you know i was expecting something
(02:54):
very handmade like a youtube video or something and i got like a full cinema
experience like that's what going to an independent movie should be not seeing like a clone of like a
Martin Scorsese movie or something you know like this
was pure gonzo independent cinema and
(03:15):
I loved it yeah like I came out of this feeling like
one I'd never seen anything like this
before and it has just such a unique style unto itself and a unique like visual
representation and like was just clearly so personal to the main creative behind
it Vera Drew who co-wrote it then also so directed it, starred in it, edited it,
(03:39):
that it just seems so unique to one person's creative vision.
And I was literally saying as we got off the theater that first night here,
it was like, that was perfect, no notes.
I don't see how I could say there was anything that should have been changed or improved upon.
This is unlike anything I've seen and just fantastic.
Such a perfect encapsulation of the idea of a
(04:02):
trans reimagining of the joker that's unique to one person's
own personal trans experience and like yeah
i we came out and i came out of the theater i
should say and i mean we were like we need
to get as many people as possible to see this again so that was
today was our attempt to get more people to come with us to
the theater and yeah just give it a second viewing
(04:23):
before doing an episode on it and yeah i
still loved this time like i got just as
much enjoyment out of it gotta notice a few more things i didn't
the last time and can now say that
it's not just that initial shock of seeing something so new
i'm like this yeah that's as good as i remember it being two
three days ago yeah i actually um you know
(04:43):
this but i spent all of last night watching all
of the old uh well from my childhood uh
batman man movies like i did uh batman
the first one through uh batman forever
i'm gonna save batman robin to watch
it with you but uh um but and something you hit on too with that was uh it's
(05:07):
her story and i really love that it's not like trying to tell anyone else's
story it's not trying Trying to speak for everyone else. It's telling her story.
But in telling her story. So many of us can.
Can recognize that story. And
that's the really nice part. Is like I identified. And I know you did too.
(05:30):
With so much stuff in this movie.
It's perhaps the most seen. I've ever felt. By a movie as far as being trans. Is concerned.
Like I came out of this movie feeling like. Like, I no longer really felt any
need to see Marvel or DC take their attempt at a trans narrative because I just
know anything that a major studio puts out isn't going to be nearly as faithful
(05:54):
to it as this is or it's going to be just so saturated for a wider audience.
I don't feel the need to see that
because i now have this film that i feel like is maybe the
best representation of like putting a creative
fantasy lens over a trans experience and like
as a trans creator of comic book
(06:15):
related media like this is everything i aspire
to make like there's some parallels with like
my it's morphin time coming out special i did down to
even a lot of batman cultural like gay batman cultural
references but i guess
it's hard to put to words everything this movie
made me feel but like i know vera has
(06:35):
spoken in interviews about how much of her own experience was
put into this movie she specifically wanted to make a
batman movie that was like a trans take
on the batman mythos that's like i mean
about a trans coming of age film and mommy issues and
those are both there in spades uh but
yeah it just didn't feel like every other film i've seen that
(06:58):
does that and it wasn't nearly as tragic as
most trans films are like this was just such a good representation of what it's
like to meet another trans person for the first time and be seen as a trans
person for the first time and just like that journey of self-discovery through
it and understanding what all this is seeing those elements through childhood
and getting the little pieces that were hints at it.
(07:20):
And yeah, that's everything I want to depict in a trans protagonist in my own storytelling.
Yeah. And the other thing I like about it is you don't have to be a nerd to appreciate it.
Like, yeah, I know more about comic books and stuff now.
But other than that, I'm like a 44 year old woman that pretty much just knows,
(07:42):
you know, the movies. But it just speaks.
And honestly, you can be anyone and enjoy it.
Really at its heart it's a really good movie
about relationships and dealing with
narcissism and finding yourself it's just
such a good movie unto itself just just alone and kind of the fact that it's
(08:05):
not trying to do any sort of heavy lifting or anything it's just telling this
really true honest story like that's what's gonna make so many people relate
to it and And yeah, especially trans people,
it is it really does a good job of covering the trans experience.
As we dive into the film and that specific story, I want to say up front that
(08:28):
we're going to do our best to avoid spoilers in this episode.
Or we're we're at least not going to take you through the entire plot and give it away.
But please, if the film is screening near you or you're listening in the future
when this is available on home release, should that day come,
Please try and watch the film before listening to this episode,
because I promise it's worth your time.
(08:49):
Even if you're not specifically into trans cinema, like, the first showing we
saw was a theater full of mostly cis-presenting folk, and they clearly got a
huge kick out of this film.
And I'm confident that anyone who listens to this podcast will likely do the
same, regardless of your own personal gender identity.
(09:09):
And just seeing the amount of laughs that people that presumably don't have
the live trans experience were getting out of this film made me realize like
this is this is everything trans cinema should try to be when it's reaching
out to even just a slightly larger audience.
Like it's clearly so accessible for even outsiders.
And like while there is a lot of good trans related jokes, for the most part,
(09:32):
it's all jokes that the mainstream can at least be in on as well.
And I think that really surprised me going into it just because of how specific it gets the experience.
There's only maybe like two or three jokes. I'm like, you might need to be a
little in the know to get that one.
And yeah more than anything it's about being an
outcast and so many of you know so many people
will be able to relate to that uh because a
(09:54):
lot of the other characters and her friends and stuff are just the outcast people
you know the like the cool hipster are outcast people that kind of you meet
when you get out on your own and it's a good representation of that as well but and there are
definitely plenty of like little trans in in
(10:15):
jokes in there too you know for us but yeah
i think i would like to start out with telling a little bit about this film's
story not the plot necessarily but more how it's come to be because i mean even
in telling a lot of our friends about this like our various trans group chats
a lot of people hadn't heard of it and there's definitely Definitely a reason for that.
(10:37):
I think like this has had a long, tenuous journey.
I know the film actually first premiered in 2022 with the Toronto Film Festival,
but only had a single screening.
And for the last two years, almost any review that's gone up online has been
about like how the reviewer has seen this trans Joker film that you'll likely never see.
(10:58):
So it's been a pretty big deal that it's now getting
a wide release across the united states playing in
like over 70 theaters i think uh and yeah
took an additional two years there was a lot of backlash
from warner brothers around this film clearly uh
like i know they sent not quite a cease and desist letter but still kind of
(11:19):
a like hey cut your shit out letter the night of its first screening so there's
been a lot of hesitation to put it out there a lot of talks with lawyers to
To make sure that this fits within film parody law or fair use parody law.
And having now seen the movie, I have to say, like, I would unequivocally say
(11:39):
that I think that does apply to this movie.
Like, even though it clearly shows Batman and, like, other known DC-related
characters, like, they all look so different.
You would never see them and think, like, oh, am I watching Suicide Squad or
am I watching a Zack Snyder Batman movie?
Like, no, it's clearly like a goofy reimagining or like a fake CGI looking Batman
(12:02):
that looks like a closer to an action figure.
Like, it's just so clearly not something that's being made by the studio. Yeah.
Imagine how something like scary movie or epic
movie depicts major film superheroes and characters
and then times that by 10 as far
as like making it look different making it look both cheaper
and stylized to fit its own means uh
(12:25):
saturday night live doesn't get sued every time they do a batman sketch yeah
it's like more creative versions of that and exactly the snl style of like skit
humor is present but usually more as the butt of jokes here and i freaking love that in the movie,
yeah don't know what made me think of uh snl.
(12:48):
Yeah that was one thing i really appreciated about this
like we hear trans coming of age comic book
inspired movie and right well that's going to be a tommy movie
for sure like this is her thing but then
we went and saw it and it was like almost everything you
loved growing up or like kind of playing into that whole like
huge snl fangirl moments and
(13:09):
like there was no one snl fangirl that was
huge yeah this and that really like
that part of the movie really touched it affected me
the same thing i wanted to be a cast member and as
you grow older and realize how awful it
is and how awful lauren michaels is like you're
(13:29):
just like oh and that's another
other thing i really loved about the movie is like a lot
of the things she grew up and loved i
did too and all of those things are really cringe
now like woody allen and louis
ck and like and it's i mean these aren't things i ever mentioned that i loved
(13:51):
and it's it's really i think brave and awesome of her to be like no this was
a part of who i am and even though So it's been totally tarnished and it's awful
and makes me feel gross and cringy.
This is a part of who I was. And that's such a big part of the movie.
And that's another reason why I think the copyright stuff is such bullshit,
(14:15):
is it's all kind of set dressing for this different story of who she is and
all of this stuff that created her.
And I think it's clear, even though there's a lot of good jokes about DC characters, Like I,
I see a lot more like the SNL and history of comedy influence on this film more
(14:35):
than anything that's like, oh, look at all these comic book Easter eggs,
which they're there and there's plenty of them and there's good ones.
But like, I know that this project was originally pitched as like,
hey, let's re-edit Todd Phillips's Joker as like a trans coming of age film
or like do that with other Batman movies.
And at a certain point, they just realized it'd be easier and better if they
(14:59):
just made their own movie.
And yeah, they were right. I don't know who would have seen this if it was just
a remix of the Joker or other Batman films, but this, I feel like,
is going to have such a unique history and identity to itself.
And it's I mean, this is what cult classic films are made of right here.
And I mean, if it gets a home release, like you can bet that we'll be making
(15:23):
events out of showing this to people because it's something that I think every
trans film enjoyer, every trans comic book fan, every trans nerd should absolutely see.
Yes. And I really like, you know, there's a certain feeling of it of when you're
trans, when you're different, you feel suddenly villainized.
(15:45):
And especially with us, you know, and it gets into the groomer stuff and all
of that and does something really awesome with it that I don't want to spoil.
But like you feel villainized constantly and you feel it when you're looking
for a job. You feel it when you're going into the bank or whatever.
(16:06):
It's you feel like a villain. You feel just people are looking at you,
the microaggression, stuff like that, and going into it, knowing it's going
to have a lot of villains in it.
And then all of the villains are just these lovable, sweet characters who are
just outcasts and shit on by society.
(16:27):
But they're all really good people. and that's so
sweet and really really the queer experience yeah
like all the little moments they show not just with
like the realizations but like going out dressed femme
for the first time but like people not judging because they're
in clown makeup and just like finding those early excuses to dress how you want
(16:48):
but also get away with it like i think we've all been there like yeah we're
We're just going to dress up on Halloween or if we go hard in like more of a
drag style than maybe the just trans woman style we want to be.
People might give it a little more pass. Less so now.
That might not fly as well now. But back when RuPaul was in his heyday, a little better.
(17:10):
And of course, the rich white guy, Bruce Wayne, can get away with it.
You know, like everyone loves it when he does it. but yeah I feel like this
is the first movie to really lean into the creepy Robin aspects and yeah like.
Kind of a weird groomer side of batman and i'm glad
to see finally a film doesn't shy away from that and like is framed in such
(17:33):
a way that it can depict that for as messed up and damaging for kids as it is
and in a really good responsible way like it's not exploitative it's not used as a joke,
there's some deep-rooted stuff in in the batman backstory the intention and how this film goes
(17:54):
about like pointing that out i think
it's really admirable like i mean a lot of the film
is framed around the first like toxic relationship that
awakens a lot of the trans realizations like between
the main character who's a bit more like
a todd phillips meets caesar romero joker
falling in love with more of a jared leto
(18:15):
inspired one they refer to as mr j and like
literally stopping the movie and narrating to
the audience like hey domestic abuse looks very
specific in most movies so i didn't recognize this
growing up but let me list off these signs that were there and every time they
have one of those moments that like just film language often glorifies toxic
(18:40):
or narcissistic relationships like the film still stops like we will show you
the list again that That isn't romantic.
I appreciated that so much. Yeah. For like questioning people and early trans
people, like I hope that getting to see a possible path you could have gone down.
Like I really hope this maybe helps people realize they're heading into a toxic
(19:02):
relationship or avoiding some kind of toxic narcissistic relationship because
like one of the hardest things about that first year or so of transitioning
is the first time you fall in love as a trans
person and like this does a great job depicting that like hey the first person
that sees me as myself is really toxic and like how do you feel any other way
(19:23):
than that this is like the person for you or the only person that understands
you when they're the first person that sees you,
And I think this is a maybe the most important trans narrative that can be out
there for people early on in their experience.
Agreed. Yeah. Or later on, too. And that's kind of what's really great about it.
(19:44):
It's so far reaching with that. Now, one thing that I think so,
we've mentioned that there's like not really any film that looks quite like this.
But one thing that I think will help it be classified in the future is that
like this has so much of the unique filmmaking workarounds that a lot of people found during COVID.
(20:06):
And I can't point to like specific things that multiple films have done because
I feel like so many things have found different ways to go about it.
But they don't play it up in this.
And I it took me until a second watch to really start to own it on this.
But it clearly is like a COVID period film, because I know the idea for it only came in 2019.
(20:28):
And with the first release happening in 2022, like I don't see any way that
that timeline works out without this mostly being filmed during COVID.
And on the second watch, I started to notice that there's not many scenes where
more than two characters are on the screen at the same time.
Or just like a lot of scenes that are just two people that are filmed in such
(20:50):
a way that clearly these people could have been in two different locations for it.
And because the way it just so drastically changes style scene to scene,
just going from like being our main human characters to the next scene,
it's kind of simplistic animation.
Then the next it's dolls, then back to humans.
(21:11):
And now there's puppets. and like it's it morphs
so seamlessly between those scenes that it gives you so many opportunities that
like oh hey this one-on-one interaction that maybe we can't film right now can
instead just be done with voiceover and it still feels just as emotional because
now we can like play this really intimate scene with cartoons and like no one even has to like.
(21:31):
Put themselves in a suggestive position like sexualizing themselves on film
because now it's a home movies looking character.
They look like home movies actually. It's really cute. And the editing is brilliant.
Yeah. And the whole movie is like even all of the live action parts,
everything is green screen.
(21:52):
And like, I know that sounds like a criticism.
It is not like the movie looks amazing.
And so different and cool because of
it again it's it's not like anything you've seen
i think this is a really important one now like regarding
the ai art discussion which
(22:13):
i mean its first release kind of predates a lot of that but so
much of the cgi in this is intentionally bad
or like it leans into
it like the poison ivy for instance shows up
and she looks like a ps1 video game
character and it actually works to
the film's credit like they make it fit the film's visual style and
(22:36):
it just made me realize that like okay if we can
do this like make this cheap of special effects look good and fit with the movie
and not take me out of it then i really don't think we need to be taking artists
jobs away by like using ai art or there are better workarounds we can do that
don't take away from the film and if anything add to the film and
(22:58):
make it clear that someone is putting their visual statement onto the film by
leaning into cheaper special effects rather than exploiting underpaid CGI artists or relying on AI art.
The Batcave is the original Doom.
Oh, yeah. I kept this Minecraft-looking ass Batcave all the time.
(23:24):
I am curious, though, with all these, like, reimaginings of the characters,
like, in different styles, some are animated, some are props, some are puppets.
Aerie, did you have any particular favorites from the group?
Ooh, like, I think probably Poison Ivy. Like, it's really funny.
I do like the animated Clark Kent and Lois Lane they have, like,
(23:47):
as news reporters through the movie.
I feel like they were really on point with like corporate
news or just like yeah fluff
pieces and stuff i love the interpretation of like
the ongoing events of the film that kind of
had a robocop feel of it too of like
the news telling you what's kind of happening in the
(24:08):
plot and it's like really satirical um and
yeah a lot of that stuff i didn't catch until the
second viewing like a lot of little added details that
they have in the news reports and uh the
the angry radio guy that you keep hearing
as well um there's a lot of little hidden details that you get the second time
(24:30):
watching it that we both really enjoyed i think yeah and i like that you bring
up robocop because it does really have those elements like there's a lot of
uh fake media within the media that helps with the world building.
And that's another thing I really have to admire this movie on,
is it does set up a very interesting world that hints at a lot of things that made this world as it is.
(24:52):
They refer to these cyber wars a lot, and it's clearly inspired by Frank Miller,
Dark Knight Returns-style events, and just creates this very alternate world
where the characters we associate with as Batman villains
are more almost like aspiring actors
and comedians and performers and yeah
(25:13):
i really like that that this gave us like super villain
origin story stuff without having to go like the todd phillips joker route or
like cruella or do anything like that like they for the most part you don't
see them do that much like evil stuff other than like hacking a broadcast and
then they They mentioned like inspiring crime among other people.
(25:34):
Yeah, they're more just fighting back.
And it's totally a statement about the whole comedy is so woke now movement
of like, well, maybe y'all should take a step back and let other people like do it.
You know, it's so saturated right now.
And it's this is a really good movie about taking it back, like make comedy more diverse.
(25:57):
And it's ridiculous that that's such a, Oh my God, you know.
Controversial type of statement of make comedy diverse, you know,
and that comedy doesn't have to punch down to be funny.
Like there's plenty of queer jokes in this. There's plenty of,
you know, but never does it punch down.
Everything's funny. It's not exploitative or gross. Like,
(26:22):
It's a great take it back movie. And in the end, like it's fairly sympathetic,
even with some of the characters that we've seen, like be non accepting in the film.
Or like, I really like the closure they come around to with the relationship with the mom.
And yeah, I just thought that was really beautiful the way they humanize someone
(26:43):
who's been depicted as like, yeah, a transphobe through the movie.
And it doesn't justify anything she's done but you
at least like understand where she's coming
from or how like she doesn't want her son to experience
the uh like women's oppression experience she's gone through and yeah like that
just was so touching and like a great way to put this like it didn't just end
(27:05):
with a and f my transphobic parent moment like they didn't need to do that but
i think that's huge of them that they did same thing with the narcissistic uh partner.
Yeah, actually has a really touching closure point to it as well,
which, wow, I don't see that enough.
Like, just because someone is narcissistic and working out their own issues
(27:27):
and not a good person for you to be with doesn't mean that awfulness should happen to them.
They should try to get better and be a better person.
That doesn't mean you have to be there while that
happens you know like take care of yourself but yeah
it was just really nice seeing a
relationship like that portrayed so well
(27:50):
and not negatively like the
narcissism is negative but like it's just really good to see characters deal
with that in a good mature way now one thing that i felt related to my experience
big time like i won't go into the specifics to avoid spoilers but But towards the end,
(28:11):
the movie caps off with like a very psychedelic ego death esque sequence that
also allows the film to tap into like the bigger cosmic multiversal aspects of superhero movies.
That one I think is awesome. They encapsulated like the full superhero mythos
into one parody movie and like take it as far as you possibly can with a single character.
(28:34):
But it really makes me wonder like how much of this trippy end sequence is part
of Vera Drew's own trans journey because like yeah a psychedelic experience
was huge in my own trans awakening and I know that's fairly common with others.
I've met many a trans gal that say like it was on a psychedelic trip that they
(28:54):
started to come to terms with being trans.
So like, I mean, after this, Vera Drew has to be like one of the people I would
most like to have on this show was an interviewee one day.
And I would love to hear all about like the specifics that went into this and
specifically that end sequence.
And yeah, that last 15 minutes is so I think that's going to really hit trans people the most.
(29:20):
I think that's the one segment of the movie. A lot of people will be like,
hmm, that was cool, but I don't really get it or whatever.
Whereas like every trans person that watches that movie, I think is going to
be really touched by the end and really get it.
And even me, I did not have a psychedelic experience for my coming out.
(29:42):
Mine was just more like, I'm 40 and it's about time.
But even me, the stuff she's touching on in that last 15 minutes hit really
hard in a good way, in just a beautiful way, a point that we all need to reach.
I do want to ask, like, since this gave me everything I think I could possibly
(30:06):
want from a trans comic book movie,
is there anything that you can think of that you would like to see in future
comic films with trans inclusion?
Like whenever Marvel and DC gets around to including an openly trans character
in one of their films or just seeing other trans media from other comic books put to screen?
(30:27):
Yeah, and I trans creators.
I think without a doubt, this is what made this good.
And, you know, like, and it's not just trans people.
I mean, studios do this with everybody of like, they don't want to replace their
rich white cis people, but they'll hire them to, you know, try to place marginalized people in media.
(30:50):
And it just doesn't work because they don't know what stories they're telling.
So getting creators to tell their own stories is really the difference.
I'm so tired of the same narrative.
Can we please change it up and hear other voices?
Yeah, and I think maybe that's what makes this stand out, especially when superhero
(31:11):
movies have hit such a point of like.
Saturation and also just like stasis or
like they bleed together so much now especially
the marvel cinematic universe films uh so
i think seeing just such a different voice and expression brought
to this world of like dc comics was so
refreshing and i hope this reception like
(31:34):
helps turn dc around and maybe
even embrace this movie because like yeah this
is something dc never would have made and
i think it actually is pretty respectful to everything in the
dc universe uh makes jokes that like
james james gunn would make any joke in this movie and like i bet if james gunn
(31:55):
saw this he'd be like guys let's let this well let's bump this up this is awesome
and like let's turn around our image a bit they need to take advantage of it
and not can it because Because it's like,
it can only do good things for them, to be quite honest. It's been getting rave reviews.
People love it. So just embrace that. As a studio, that's what you should be
(32:19):
responding to of people like this and people are paying to go see it.
So, yeah. Ka-ching. Get that money, Warner.
Corner uh i would definitely
agree with you that i guess like any future comic book trans
representation i just want to see trans voices given a platform as for like
(32:39):
marvel and dc characters like i guess unless we're gonna get some very personalized
voice brought to one of their films i would i think this actually makes me feel
like i just want a trans character to
exist in one of these films and not any kind of
deal to be made out of it like i think it should be clear that
they're trans and not hinted at so we can actually get some clear
(33:02):
representation but it's like this said everything about the trans experience
that i need it to so if we can just show that a character is now their current
gender but maybe in a flashback was not their current gender and that's just
about all they ever say about it that'd be fine by me like i don't see
a way that Marvel or DC expressed one of these experiences better.
(33:24):
Unless they give someone with our
perspective a film like Into the
Spider-Verse or something they can stylize and break the Marvel mold so much
so that they can at least take a character like Spider-Man or other major character
and imbue what already makes that character great with how trans people already
(33:45):
see their own experiences in this character with two lives or two identities
they're trying to balance.
And here's the representation I've seen in the past year. I got three.
So the first one is Hari Neff and the Barbie movie. That was surreal.
That was amazing. I love her. And that role was adorable and wonderful.
(34:09):
And so that was just a moment seeing that in the theater.
And then the next was Monica, which is a really good artsy movie that a lot
of people would probably be bored.
It's a character study and just really slow.
But beautiful and then there's this
and this compared to the others not you
(34:30):
know dissing them or whatever but just mind blown because those were you know
just little kind of tiny things whereas this was such a wonderful giant artistic
statement from a trans person uh the third one i thought you were going to mention
was uh going to be monkey man oh yeah yeah true
(34:50):
and also yeah i forgot about that
so four because that also was a we were like
literally cheering in the theater during monkey man
and uh seeing the hijra represented is
something i've wanted to see for so long so
that that was super awesome yeah like i don't know how much we can we're i don't
(35:11):
know how much we're able to label that a trans experience but it's undoubtedly
a gender non-conforming experience because it is just culturally a very different
relationship to one's own gender and transitioning but yeah,
Monkey Man's trans representation.
Is probably going to be the best of the year.
I'm not including this one since this could count as a 2022 or 2023 film,
(35:34):
but as far as actually, officially, objectively 2024 films,
I will be shocked if Monkey Man does not have the best trans representation
of the year, so cool to just see this,
Badass group of trans and gender non-conforming warrior monks.
Uh, that like not being a huge, huge part of their story.
Uh, but still like, yeah, just helping represent like, yeah,
(35:57):
we're kind of outcast, but we also are like non-dual or like can balance two
different aspects of ourselves. And, and,
Yeah, like I can't believe they let like the group of basically Jedi for that movie.
Trans monks. Monkey Man's awesome. See it if you haven't already. It's so cool. Yeah.
(36:18):
And then back to kind of what I was saying before about trans creators.
I wanted to stress to all studios and especially Warner Brothers. Y'all leave Lana alone.
Let Lana do whatever she wants. Don't make Lana direct like a trans Batman movie or something.
Thing we're talking lana wachowski yeah
yeah okay it's like oh we're trying to sing we'll get lana like
(36:39):
no no let her do
whatever she wants and now before we
get into like suggestions for other
films for those that like this uh do you have any final points
about the movie you'd like to bring up yes i do actually
something we have not mentioned yet and was just one
of my favorite parts of the movie uh and i can't
(37:02):
believe i'm saying this but the penguin yeah like
what a good little ally wow
like what an awesome ally
and they're out there and i'm glad there was some good cis ally representation
because he is so sweet and wonderful and most definitely my favorite character
(37:24):
in the movie yeah he is the cis friend every trans person wants to have at their side and like.
Just given that it is the Penguin when he first showed up, I'm like,
oh, this is this is going to end badly or they're going to have some terrible falling out.
He's going to betray the Joker, the Harley Quinn.
But no, he's a solid dude throughout.
(37:44):
He's a real stand up guy. He's really supportive of like Joker expressing the
way they want and pointing out like, have you seen this group of outcasts that you live with?
Like, no one's going to care if you show up with makeup on, like embrace it.
But and yeah, like they are absolutely ally goals.
And like, I know we're in, I guess, a period of great penguin representation
(38:08):
or getting great penguins in our Batman related media. And this is no exception.
He's got some of the best jokes, some of the best moments in the movie and such
a lovable character. He's just such a lovable character.
Yeah. Like, I don't know why I love that character so much, but I do.
He makes me happy whenever he's on screen.
(38:32):
Anything else? I think that's it.
So I did want to have just a moment where we talked about like other films that
people should see if they really liked this movie.
Like, obviously, nothing's going to scratch the exact same itch,
but I think there are some very creative,
subversive takes on common media or just weird indie films that I think people
(38:58):
should check out if they like this.
Eri, I know that there were like a lot of like artistic and indie directors
that you kind of recognize their style in this movie, especially like with the
use of dolls and puppets in some parts.
I am an uncultured swine that didn't know any of those so I thought I'd kick
off and ask for who you would say if you like this weird avant-garde filming style uh.
(39:24):
Yeah filmmakers and films people should check out yeah and
make sure to check out all of these people's early
work because a lot of them kind of like their work
is completely different and in studios now but like uh one is todd haynes uh
he did the karen carpenter story one of the great seminal queer filmmakers and
(39:45):
uh he did the karen carpenter story all with barbie dolls and not like Like
they all they're all weird Barbie dolls.
They've seen better days, these Barbie dolls.
And that's a really fun one. Very mixed media like this.
Another Greg Racky is very much like this, especially his early stuff.
(40:07):
He's actually he directed a lot of episodes of Riverdale recently. So he's come really far.
But yeah, a lot of his early stuff. of doom generation nowhere
um mysterious skin is really
good but that's kind of when he started being a little bit
more of a standard filmmaker but
still a great queer film and then uh yeah
(40:30):
those were the the two big ones um i
was really thinking of oh and gus van sant my own
private idaho very much has the same kind
of grainy independent feel to it now
the first one i'll all suggest uh take with a grain of salt because
we won't see it for another week or two but there
were a lot of trailers ahead of this one for uh the film she is conan that really
(40:54):
intrigued me and had me really excited to check that out when that gets screened
at the same indie theater we saw the people's joker at like yeah it seems to
be like a gender-bent reimagining of conan across.
Like six different time periods but with following one
female barbarian and it also
looks very like hyper stylized and
(41:16):
unlike anything i've seen before like i get that they're calling it conan but
this has very little resemblance to any other conan the barbarian media we've
seen in film so far if you want to have some fun go on imdb and look at the
current uh comments on the she
is Conan page and it's all bros are just like, this is not Conan. Not fair.
(41:41):
It's like, what would make you think? Like I saw this trailer and like,
if I was a Conan bro, I would know to stay away.
And I love Conan too. Like, don't get me wrong, but like, yeah,
I, I know I'm in for a lesbian movie and I'm very happy about that.
Now, the other one that comes to mind for me that I just think all queer people
(42:03):
People should check this out, at least if you're not, like, easily offended.
But Dix the Musical has some elements of this, like...
It's this is the other film that we've recently made
an event out of showing our friends just because it's without
a doubt the funniest movie i've seen in a very long
time it does some similar stuff with the like intentionally cheap
(42:25):
effects even as a recurring theme of things
being fake and shitty looking uh but
like i mean it's it's gay people playing over
the top straight people and like doing a caricature
of like a straight cishet bro mentality
i guess worst so yeah like
(42:47):
it does get offensive but like at the expense of
like the most toxic aspects of like straight guy
culture so like yeah if you can't if
you're easily offended or like off put by a
subversive humor maybe not for you but like yeah if you are missing good comedy
movies and want a good queer one at that like this will not disappoint our friends
(43:09):
were literally crying at this and we had to watch with subtitles otherwise a
lot of jokes would have been missed we were laughing so loudly.
It's a great movie i love sewer boys
now uh for a closing question
of the week i have for this episode i wanted to ask
you ari what other comic book
(43:30):
or intellectual property or other big series
franchise would you like to see subverted in
a similar fashion uh potentially also integrating trans
themes oh it's oh
that's a hard one because i'm not the biggest fan of
that and honestly that's why i was kind of like didn't think
i would like this movie as much as i did um but wow that's a tough one um you
(43:57):
always pop these up and it's like um because it's a hard one to answer it because
like normally I would answer my first one would be like the Batman villains.
Because they've just always seemed so queer to me
um do you want me to go first to give
you a minute to ruminate on that yeah i think i have my
(44:18):
answer now and it's really silly but go on so i
mean i every time i come across terminator media
my mind just races to all
of the places that franchise hasn't gone yet or like has only dipped its toes
in and usually not very well But like I really want to see something where Skynet
(44:39):
is depicted sympathetically and maybe there could be some level of trans allegory
to it or it's like identity.
Maybe you could follow a T-1000 that like, yeah, that's literally gender fluid, gender liquid steel.
But Terminator Genisys is infamously like the worst Terminator movie.
But I think it has some of the most interesting ideas of any of those films
(45:01):
because it does just weird stuff that doesn't feel like a Terminator movie.
And I really think that maybe only got the Terminator label late in its production because of it.
But the idea that like, hey, maybe Skynet doesn't have to be a bad guy.
Like every time it's killed humanity, it's been on like its first day being sentient.
So maybe if we keep delaying Judgment Day and keep letting technology progress
(45:25):
and maybe let Skynet take shape in other ways, maybe it can be our friend or
maybe there's like a better outcome for both of us.
And like, yeah, if you're gonna have, if you know something is coming in the
future, you can prepare for it and steer it in the right path. And like, yeah, it is.
I don't even know how in the wrong Skynet is in at least the later films when like.
(45:50):
It's, yes, sending people back
in time to kill John Connor, but it's also defending its own existence.
And, like, I mean, isn't that the least anyone can expect of, like, a sentient being?
Especially one that, like, was programmed to kill people?
Like, yeah, maybe, like, Skynet doesn't have to be the bad guy.
(46:10):
I would love to see something of, like, Skynet and John Connor kind of becoming one.
And that was something Genesis touched on, and I felt like it could have been really interesting.
But sadly it was just done in such a like unrealized way
or like something that felt closer to terminator fan
fiction than like a real exploration of where that
franchise could have gone yeah it did really feel like
(46:31):
terminator fan fiction there were parts of it that were like hit so hard and
like things i'd always wanted to see and then there was the rest of the movie
which was off it's some of the worst casting i've ever seen uh but um so i have mine It's a big one.
And first, I'm going to tell you the runner up I had in my head,
(46:55):
which I still really love. Yeah. Not my final answer.
Trolls. I just think trolls could be more queer.
It's already pretty queer, but I think you should just clear up trolls even
more because come on, trolls. We all know. Just come out.
You're basically a pride flag as is trolls. Yeah.
(47:17):
Yeah. you're a giant pride flag for kids and
I love you trolls don't stop being you but be your true you trolls so having
said that no I wanted to put a kind of F you edge on it and my choice is Harry Potter yeah yeah yeah,
(47:38):
take it back and like just I mean she obviously can't do shit with it like so
So just give it to someone else and make it queer as hell and trans it up because
it already lent itself so well.
I mean, they literally have potions that I dreamed about.
(48:00):
And I can't say as a kid because I was an adult when those came out.
But like the potions and stuff where you change what you look like and your
gender and stuff like, come on, you could so trans that up.
Like, get that mischief map out and just trans that whole Hogwarts.
And I mean, in a very similar style to the People's Joker, there is a production
(48:25):
house that I would like to see do this.
It's Starkid Productions, I believe they're called.
They're who did a very Potter musical and its sequels.
Which is the only Harry Potter-related media I can really suggest because it's
unofficial fan media, and, like, J.K.
Rowling or at least the powers that be are against it enough that the only recordings
(48:47):
of it are clearly, like, not professional on, like, a phone or a hand camera.
Good enough to watch, but not good enough to, like, release widely.
And they make great musicals out of all these properties doing really original
thoughts out of, like, Oregon Trail or Aladdin, but, like, with Jafar as the good guy.
So I would absolutely trust them with, like, maybe a trans guiding hand of doing
(49:09):
a trans reimagining of Harry Potter.
And, I mean, Dana Radcliffe seems like such a cool person. If they could get
him into it, I would love that.
Yes. But, yeah, just wrapping up here, I just want to say thank you again,
Ari, for joining me for this episode.
It's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you. It's always a pleasure being
on. If the listeners at home have requests or recommendations for comics or
(49:33):
other comic-inspired media you'd like us to cover in the future,
you can send them our way on social media.
You can find us on the Transcending Comics Instagram and Facebook page,
on Twitter as at TranscendComics, or email us at TranscendingComics at gmail.com.
We'd like to thank you again for giving our podcast a chance and give a special
shout-out to Ray Day Parade for designing our logo.
Our intro and outro music this week is A Little Soul and You've Been Starring by Carlson.
(49:56):
You can check out more of his music on Carlson.com. Join us again next time
as we continue transcending boundaries and exploring the colorful world of trans,
non-binary, and genderqueer representation in comic book media of all kinds.
As the curtains fall on this episode of Transcending Comics,
remember that comics have the power to inspire change in countless worlds, including our own.
Keep reading, keep writing, and keep transcending.
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