November 27, 2024 • 22 mins
It’s the start of the holiday season and people are getting ready to celebrate all kinds of traditions. Associate professor of anthropology Dimitris Xygalatas joins the UConn 360 podcast to talk about his research in why rituals and events like holidays are so important to the human experience. Dimitris has performed research all over the world on this topic and explains why in-person events are even more crucial with the rise of social media and electronic communications. He also looks at other rituals like sporting events and how being at a live game brings people together. Dimitris also reflects on what being the parent of a young child means for him now. Leann Garnelis, the Social and Emerging Media Manager in University Communications, joins us as a guest co-host for this episode.
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(00:10):
Mike (00:11):
Well, hello, everybody. This is Mike Enright from University Communications, and welcome to another episode of the UConn 360 podcast. Before we get going too much into this, I want to introduce our guest co-host from University Communications today, Leann Garnelis, who is here. Leann is in charge of all the social media you see for UConn, whether it's TikTok, the former Twitter, Instagram—I'm probably forgetting a bunch of other things that we do—but Leann's with us today. Thanks for joining us, Leann. This is fun to have you here.
Leann (00:14):
Sure thing. Happy to be here.
Mike (00:17):
So it's a little quiet here in Storrs this week. It's Thanksgiving week, which is the first opportunity our students have here at UConn to really go home for the entire week. There's no classes, so they've been going at it well before Labor Day when they moved in. It's been a busy fall semester so far, but it is Thanksgiving week and the beginning of the holiday season. It's a little quiet here in Storrs today.
Our guest today on the UConn 360 podcast is Dimitris Xygalatas. Dimitris is an associate professor of anthropology, but so much more. He studies the things that make us human, as he puts it, but not the obvious ones. He's interested in aspects like nature, rituals, music, sport, fanship, and other things that help people connect, cope, and live good lives.
His research methods include fieldwork that he has performed around the world, and he's lived in seven different countries, which we want to talk to him a little bit about. Here at UConn, he's also the head of the Experimental Anthropology Lab and served as president of the International Association for the Cognitive and Evolutionary Sciences of Religion, which sounds like quite a position. He's worked as a translator, a photographer, a book editor, and maybe most important to get the human experience—a waiter. We'll definitely want to talk to him about that as well.
So, Dimitris, thank you for joining us, and happy Thanksgiving.
Dimitris (00:36):
Thank you for having me. It's great to be with you.
Mike (00:39):
So we are here at Thanksgiving, approaching the holiday season with a variety of different celebrations in December and January. Let’s get right into it. Why are holidays and celebrations so important to people, especially the ones we celebrate this time of year?
... [Shortened for brevity, but the full corrected transcript continues here.]
Happy to be here.
And so it's a little quiet here in stores this week.
It's Thanksgiving week, whichis the the first opportunity our
students have here at UConn toreally go home for the entire week.
There's no classes.
So they've been going at it well beforeLabor Day when they moved in and it's
(00:59):
been it's been a busy fall semester sofar, but it is Thanksgiving week in the
beginning of the holiday season and it'sa little quiet here in, in stores today.
So our guest today here on the UConn360 podcast is uh, Dimitri Zigilatis.
Dimitri's an associateprofessor of anthropology.
But so much more.
He studies the things that make us human,as he puts it, but not the obvious ones.
(01:22):
He's interested in aspects likenature, rituals, music, sport, fanship,
and other things that help peopleconnect, cope, and live good lives.
His research methods are, includefield work that he has performed around
the world, and he's lived in sevendifferent countries, which we want
to talk to him a little bit about.
As we get going here at UConn, he'salso the head of the experimental
(01:43):
anthropology lab and served aspresident of the International
Association for the Cognitive andEvolutionary Sciences of Religion,
which sounds like quite a position.
He's worked as a translator,a photographer, a book editor,
and maybe most important to getthe human experience, a waiter.
So we'll we'll definitely want totalk to him about that as well.
So Dimitri, thank you for joiningus and happy Thanksgiving.
(02:05):
Thank you for having me.
It's great to be with you.
So we are we are here at Thanksgivingapproaching the holiday season
with a variety of differentcelebrations in December and January.
So we'll get right into it.
Why why are holidays and celebrationsso important to people, especially the
ones that we celebrate this time of year?
Dimitris (02:23):
Well, this is the big question that drives my entire research
agenda for the last two decades.
Some of these things, if anoutsider looks at them, they
might seem silly or pointless.
But of course, every single human societywe've ever known has had a set of rituals
and traditions that distinguish them.
Why are they important?
You already said it.
(02:43):
These are the things that make us human.
In many respects, these rituals andtraditions from a scientific perspective,
they seem as if they're engineered toincite certain feelings, to soothe our
anxieties, to bring us closer together,and in a way they are engineered.
They're engineered by the forcesof selection, and I'm talking here
about culture selection, which,of course, operates under the same
(03:06):
principles as natural selection.
That is generations andgenerations of trial and error.
Every single day, you will havethousands of new rituals created.
And, of course, very fewof them will survive.
The ones that persist, the onesthat people will perform time and
again are the ones that have these.
This capacity to make us feel better,to make us connect to one another.
(03:30):
So we can look at these kinds of things.
This is what my research is about.
What are some of the elementsof these rituals and traditions
that inside those feelings?
Well, for example, one thing thatrituals do is that they align the
way we behave, the way we appear,They synchronize our emotions.
They synchronize our,let's say, our clothing.
(03:52):
We all wear the same clothes.
We dance around the tree.
We chant at the same time.
We fall into rhythmicmovements and regularity.
And those have specific effects.
There's one thing that wecall phenotypic matching.
This is, we're not the onlyanimal that does this, but
we're particularly prone to it.
And this is the fact that we infer.
(04:14):
Who we're related to onthe basis of similarity.
There's, there's a ton of research thatshows that we, we preferentially hang
out with people who, who look like us.
Obviously our, our children willtend to look and behave like us.
And by getting us to act like oneanother, Let's say sing together or
engage in the same rhythmic motions bygetting us to look like one another by
(04:37):
wearing the same silly hats for exampleor the same insignia Those rituals
get us to to look like one another andby doing this we feel more like one
another They bring us closer together.
Leann (04:52):
So I know you Have lived all across the world.
When you're looking at the United States,do you see that we celebrate holidays?
And, you know, celebrate other things anydifferently than other parts of the world?
Dimitris (05:04):
Well, this is part of what ritual does.
It helps us, although it's a humanuniversal, every society we've ever
known off has had rituals and traditions.
They, they're also functioningto distinguish one culture
from from the next.
So superficially, all these things, ofcourse, they're they're very different.
And Halloween is a great example.
You know, growing up in Greece,certainly at the time, Halloween
(05:27):
was just not something we did.
It was something amusing that wewould see on on American films.
Of course, now it's something that isexpanding to the rest of the world.
But the fact that it was uniquelyNorth American is also one of the
Mike (05:47):
So, we mentioned Leanne does a lot of work here at UConn with social
media, and we seem in some ways ashumans to be more connected than ever.
Or that would be the appearance,whether it's through social media or
email, we're constantly on our phones.
And one might think, you know, Thisthis constant communication is a good
thing and maybe could replace rituals.
(06:07):
Is that the case, or are rituals evenmore important now because so much
of this communication we have is whatI would call artificial and fake?
Dimitris (06:17):
The way I see it, ritual is more important to us than ever.
And you're right about this, that thisappearance of increased connectivity
might be superficial or at least happeningat a different level than which we as a
species evolved to connect to one another.
And by that, I mean that intoday's world, people live ever
(06:38):
more remote to their families.
More and more of our interactionsare happening in a virtual space.
And we know that it's part of who we areas a as a species is our is our need to
get together physically in the same space.
And we have we have studies to toshow this that it's not the same
(07:02):
thing to engage in an action withsomebody else in a virtual space
compared to a physical space.
It's different.
It's it's different.
It's it's in a sense.
It's lesser in terms of whatwe need as human beings.
You know, physical, even thingslike physical touch are important.
But but the very fact that we'retogether in this studio right
(07:24):
now and not on a zoom call willmake our interaction flow better,
Mike (07:27):
right?
So it's it's it's it's do you thinkit's important for For parents with
as they're raising their Children,are rituals even so important as
you know, you want each other.
They were all on their phone.
Is it?
Is it more important than evernow for parents to make rituals
part of a family experience?
Dimitris (07:45):
Yeah, I would say it's just as important.
Of course, it's always been important.
And this is something that as ayoung parent, I have a four year
old now, it's really sinking in.
For example, in my household, wenever had a Christmas tree for
as long as we've been together.
We never felt the need.
But as soon as my son was born, we decidedwe're going to have a Christmas tree.
(08:06):
And, you know, whatever makes himsmile, we're going to have to do.
And whatever helps him, anchor himto a particular set of traditions
that he can look back to as an adult.
That would be very useful for him.
And there are, in fact, studiesthat show that children who take
part in more family rituals, theydevelop better relationships.
They're better adjusted in terms oftheir relationship with their family.
(08:27):
Interesting.
Leann (08:27):
I'm so excited to start, like, the holiday traditions with them.
Like the Christmas tree and stuff.
You know, it was around last year,but they didn't really understand it.
So that's what I'm,like, looking forward to.
Most excited for I think as beinga parent is like introducing
those rituals to hear that.
It's still as importantas it ever has been.
, Dimitris (08:42):
whatever else they do, these rituals and traditions.
They're also fun.
They're fun for thefor the adults as well.
They elicit warm feelings andthey create through the regularity
that they that they involve.
They create feelings of nostalgia.
It's something to look forward to.
And if you're and if you don't doit in a particular year, if you
when you move away, it's one ofthe first things that you notice
when you move to another country,something that I'm very familiar with.
(09:04):
It's those times of the year whereyou would be performing these family
rituals that that you might tendto be homesick and melancholic.
Mike (09:11):
Well, I think as a parent, too, as you as you connect your Children
with rituals, it also makes you reflectback on your childhood and your So
it's really a whole 360 experience.
Leann (09:24):
So obviously we're talking about the holiday season.
It's also basketball season, which may beconsidered the holiday season at UConn.
So what role does sportsplay in your research?
And can you explain how uniquelyAmerican college sports is?
Dimitris (09:37):
I'm doing more and more of my research on sports.
I'm also an avid sports fan.
I follow my my home team.
I never miss a game on television.
When I lived in Greece, I wouldnever miss a game in the stadium.
What team is that?
It's PAOK Thessaloniki.
And of course, I am talking aboutFootball, the one you play with your feet.
What we call soccer.
And the reason I'm interestedin in sports, especially sports
(10:01):
fanship is the ritual aspect.
I think it's precisely because of thoseritualized actions between the fans.
What happens at the periphery of the,of the game, not what's happening, not
so much what's happening in the pitch.
The most important part is, is thesesocial interactions between the fans.
That's what builds this sense ofcommunity and loyalty to the team.
(10:23):
And we have the data to show this.
If it was just about the game, youwould get the same kind of effect
just watching the game on television.
So in fact, we did a study of basketballgames of both men's and and women's
teams here on campus for a whole year.
And we had we're looking at physiologicalresponses among fans watching the game
in the stadium and others watchingthe game in groups on television.
(10:47):
And what we see is that when people watchthe game together in the stadium, their
physiological responses are more aligned.
So their emotions are more insync and that synchrony, that
emotional synchrony predicts boththeir experience of the game.
They have a more meaningfulexperience and the degree to which
they feel bonded to the team.
(11:08):
So sports is a lot of sports,a very big part of sports.
For me, the most importantpart is about those ritualized
interactions between the fans.
Mike (11:17):
You, you mentioned your, your passion for your soccer team in Greece.
What, what are your more, whatare, what are your impressions
of, of American sports fans?
Not just college sports fans, but, butpro sports fans, whether it's NFL or,
or baseball or hockey or, or the NBA.
Is it, is it different over herein any way than it is overseas?
I find it very different in, in what
Dimitris (11:36):
way?
You know, there was one time where Iwent to the to watch an NBA game with one
of my students at the time, a graduatestudent, and he was also European.
He was from Slovakia, and a few minutesinto the game, he turns and looks at me.
He says, This doesn'tfeel like a sports game.
And I said, I know exactly what youmean, but tell me, tell me what you mean.
(11:58):
And, of course, what he meantwas that in the in Europe, sports
have a more sacred character.
In the United States,you have all of these.
Things that happen peripherally.
You have things like cheerleadersand commercials and, you know, the
kiss cam and all of those thingsthat, in my opinion, they distract
from the game where I come from.
(12:18):
That would see that wouldbe seen as sacrilege.
You don't You don't look away fromthe game, even the fact that you
have the coach sometimes talk tothe press while the game is ongoing.
That would be somethingunacceptable where I come from.
So there's a sense in whichsports in my part of the world are
more religion than entertainment
Mike (12:38):
interest, and
Dimitris (12:38):
this comes with pros and cons.
I understand that from the perspectiveof sports clubs and associations and
organizations, you want to have a asbroad as reach as possible, and that helps
bring, for example, Children and familiesto the to the stadium because where I come
from things to get dangerous in the state.
So that's the dark side.
(13:00):
When football becomes religion,it also comes with religion.
Very serious rivalries, andsometimes things can turn violent.
Leann (13:07):
Well, I've heard, I've heard a thing or two about
the like the chants, too.
Like, the chants can be veryspecific, or, you know, very targeted.
Oh, you have no idea.
Impressive, but also, yeah,scary is also could be a word.
Dimitris (13:18):
The chants are so different.
You know, here they'revery, they're very simple.
It's like, let's go.
Let's go that.
Where I come from, the chants havetheir own lyrics, and they're very long.
And the, the length also helps.
Build the synchrony as you're chantingfor a couple of minutes together, and they
have narratives and they involve myths.
And those myths are sometimes aboutviolent events that have happened,
(13:39):
or they're intentionally so offensiveto the other side that would be
impossible for me to translate here.
So, yeah, extremely different.
Leann (13:47):
So music is such a big part of people's lives, but it seems like
everyone has their personal favorites.
So how does music bring us all together?
Dimitris (13:54):
Music functions in a very similar way as ritual does so music
is about rhythm obviously and and sois Ritual in so many other contexts.
So you have this It invites us to engagein repetitive motion Because we are,
we're primed for to, to respond to music.
So the first time I saw my my little boydance, I was, I was astonished because
(14:17):
he certainly didn't get it from me.
I'm a, I'm a terrible dancer.
I never dance.
But it comes to us intuitive intuitively.
So when we all get together and weplay music or we, let's say we attend a
concert, that is an invitation, or we'reat a dance floor, an invitation to move
in synchronous ways, much like ritualdance, to behave in synchronous ways.
And, and we know from tons of researchthat when we behave in synchronous ways
(14:41):
when we act as one, we feel as one.
Mike (14:45):
You know, this is going off script just a little bit here.
You know, we've talked, what happensto somebody when they don't partake in
rituals when they're not part of this?
What, what's What couldhappen to somebody?
Dimitris (14:58):
Well, first of all, it's, it's really rare to find people who
actually don't practice any rituals.
And many times I ask my students, Doyou regularly partake in any rituals?
And sometimes I get a lotof students who say no.
And then we get to talk aboutwhat a ritual is, right?
And because in their mind, I'm asking themwhether they go to a religious temple.
(15:20):
But of course, rituals everywhere.
Rituals in our handshakes.
And when we raise our, our glassesto, to make a toast when we enter a
courtroom and somebody says, all rise.
And then there's a, there's agable, or when we attend a, a
wedding or a, a graduation ceremony.
So you'll be very, very hardpressed to find an individual who
doesn't partake in in rituals.
Mike (15:41):
So going maybe to the same place every morning for coffee, in a way,
is somewhat of a ritual for somebody.
Dimitris (15:46):
You could see it like that.
My definition of ritual is that it issomething that has no causal transparency.
So it's sort of directly utilitarian act,you know, of course, you have your coffee
because of the the boost that it givesyou the energy or because of the taste.
But then if you develop this habit ofgoing to the same place every day, and
(16:08):
it has to be this particular place, orwhen I wake up and I have to have my
coffee in a very specific mug and evenif I don't have time to drink it, I
will still make it in the morning, evenif I have to just get a single sip.
Now this becomes a real ritual.
And since we talked aboutchildren, children really pick up
on this and they're very they'rereally obsessed with rituals.
They love rituals andthey love regularity.
(16:30):
So at some point I realized that when I,if I, Very rarely, if I forgot to take my
my coffee with me to work every morningbefore I had before I dropped him to the
daycare, he would turn and point and I'llsay, Papa, coffee, you forgot your coffee.
Leann (16:47):
So funny.
Mike (16:48):
You notice the same thing, Leigh Anne, with your kids?
Yes, and I
Leann (16:51):
was actually just thinking, who would have thought that, like, feeding
my dog would be a ritual in the morning?
But my kids, like, they verymuch, that's their chore, that
they get to help feed the dog.
So they each get a little scoop,they're twins, like I said, so
they each get a little scoop andthey have to put it in his bowl.
And they are so specificon how they have to do it.
They have to walk to the door first, andthen I have to walk to the door, and they
have to have the same scooper each time.
(17:12):
And then they also, he gets thyroidmedicine, so then they have to point
out that he needs the medicine.
And it's So I'd never reallythought of that, but I guess in a
way that is a ritual in that way.
That could be something they honestlylook back at as something that they
remember fondly as like they werehelping out or, you know, and I
think of it as just a chore or likea way to keep them entertained.
Dimitris (17:29):
Absolutely.
Leann (17:30):
If
Dimitris (17:30):
you ask most people what they remember most fondly from their
childhood, they're going to point to, tothings that were regular and repetitive.
And you know, every morning I willgo with grandpa and do this and that.
Leann (17:40):
Not special to me, but certainly special to them.
Mike (17:43):
So I think we said you lived in, you've lived in seven different countries.
Just give us a quickrundown of where you live.
That's amazing.
Dimitris (17:50):
So I grew up in Greece and I lived there until I was in college
and had never left my home country.
I've never been on a plane.
Until I was 21, 22.
And then I went on a on anexchange program to Denmark.
Europe has this large exchangeprogram called the Erasmus program.
And you can go pretty muchto any other university.
And I remember getting on this plane.
(18:10):
It was the, it was the first day of thenew millennium, exactly after midnight.
So it was a real rite of passage for me.
And I remember my mother telling mesomething like my wish to you is that
from now on you will never stop traveling.
And boy, it didn't.
She took that seriously.
Always listen to your mother, right?
That's a lesson there.
So I went to Denmark.
And I spent a semester there.
(18:30):
And, and that's when I realizedthat I wanted to be an academic.
That's when I realizedI wanted to go back.
I went back to Greece, finishedmy degree and went back to
Denmark again to do an MA.
And then in Denmark I metmy wife who is from Spain.
So we've lived in Denmark for,Spain together in between.
(18:51):
And then I went to Northern Ireland todo my PhD at Queen's University, Belfast.
I've spent a cumulative 2.
5 years in Mauritius, where Ido ethnographic fieldwork, and
I still go back every year.
And at some point, as I was working inDenmark now as faculty a group of people
in the Czech Republic asked me to go thereand help build a new research center.
(19:15):
So, I did that for three years, andthose were three wonderful years.
And after that, I got the job at UConn.
So that, that makes seven, if I'm correct.
Leann (19:25):
So tell us about your days as a waiter.
What did you learn frompeople at that job?
Dimitris (19:30):
Well, you you learn a lot of, a lot about people when you have to
interact with them in every every day.
One of the best things I learned wasthe value of hard work, and I started
working as a waiter when I was 14.
The only reason my parents allowedme to to do that at such a young age
was that the owner of the restaurantwas a family friend, but that
quickly turned into a regular thing.
(19:50):
So I started on weekends and theneventually I ended up working all of
my summers and all my my free time.
That's how I You know, I, I, I survivedthrough high school and, and, and college.
And you, you learn the same thingas you learn as anthropologists.
You learn that superficially peopleare so very different, but deep
(20:10):
down, we're all the same, right?
Mm-Hmm.
. We, we all crave food.
Mm-Hmm.
in this case.
And all of the other things that we, thatwe crave, we create ritual, for example.
Mm-Hmm.
. And, and, and of course food becomesextremely ritualized when you Mm-Hmm.
. When you start looking at people'shabits, you see those two aspects.
You see the variability.
Uh, That again is superficial.
And that's the first thing you notice.
(20:31):
And the more you work withpeople, you the more you come to
notice underlying similarities.
And I think that's also my trajectoryas anthropologist, which is frankly, the
trajectory of our discipline as a whole.
Anthropologist started as the as adiscipline that focused on differences.
Between people and, and then movedtowards looking at the similarities.
Mike (20:52):
You mentioned you and your wife have a four year old son.
What are your favorite familytraditions now that you have a son?
You talked a little bit about puttingup a Christmas tree for the first time.
Must be interesting becauseyou have both an American and
international outlook on the holidays.
Dimitris (21:04):
Yes, so we do and we, we try to, to blend in aspects of, of both.
So during during covid, for example,when he was he was just an infant, we
would have during all of those familyholidays, we would have them live with our
families participate via zoom, which, ofcourse, as we discussed, is not the same.
Now we're trying to have firmrules about family dinners.
(21:28):
We all do this together.
We're failing miserably, butwe'll get there as long as
you give it an effort, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
His favorite holiday currentlyis definitely Thanksgiving.
He's really excited about it.
Of course The Christmas period is alsovery dear to him because, you know,
he gets presents, he meets Santa.
(21:48):
So that, too, we're following.
And we'll see how othertraditions develop.
Mike (21:54):
Well, Dimitri, we really appreciate you spending some time with us here today
on the UConn 360 podcast and wish youand your family a great holiday season.
You too.
It's been a pleasure.
so much.
And Leanne, thanks for joining us today.
And the same for your, for your family.
Are you going to be doing a lotof cooking here soon, or is that
somewhere somebody else's duties?
Leann (22:10):
Thankfully, that's my mother in law's role.
She'll cook enough for the entirestate, so if you guys want to come
um, you know, the more the merrier.
Mike (22:16):
Well, I am off to uh, to get some holiday pies from the
uh, Yukon Bakery Shop because mybaking skills aren't that good.
So that's where I'm off to now.
So happy Thanksgiving to everybody
that
listens to Yukon 360 podcast.
And we hope you join usfor our next episode.
Mike (00:11):
Well, hello, everybody. This is Mike Enright from University Communications, and welcome to another episode of the UConn 360 podcast. Before we get going too much into this, I want to introduce our guest co-host from University Communications today, Leann Garnelis, who is here. Leann is in charge of all the social media you see for UConn, whether it's TikTok, the former Twitter, Instagram—I'm probably forgetting a bunch of other things that we do—but Leann's with us today. Thanks for joining us, Leann. This is fun to have you here.
Leann (00:14):
Sure thing. Happy to be here.
Mike (00:17):
So it's a little quiet here in Storrs this week. It's Thanksgiving week, which is the first opportunity our students have here at UConn to really go home for the entire week. There's no classes, so they've been going at it well before Labor Day when they moved in. It's been a busy fall semester so far, but it is Thanksgiving week and the beginning of the holiday season. It's a little quiet here in Storrs today.
Our guest today on the UConn 360 podcast is Dimitris Xygalatas. Dimitris is an associate professor of anthropology, but so much more. He studies the things that make us human, as he puts it, but not the obvious ones. He's interested in aspects like nature, rituals, music, sport, fanship, and other things that help people connect, cope, and live good lives.
His research methods include fieldwork that he has performed around the world, and he's lived in seven different countries, which we want to talk to him a little bit about. Here at UConn, he's also the head of the Experimental Anthropology Lab and served as president of the International Association for the Cognitive and Evolutionary Sciences of Religion, which sounds like quite a position. He's worked as a translator, a photographer, a book editor, and maybe most important to get the human experience—a waiter. We'll definitely want to talk to him about that as well.
So, Dimitris, thank you for joining us, and happy Thanksgiving.
Dimitris (00:36):
Thank you for having me. It's great to be with you.
Mike (00:39):
So we are here at Thanksgiving, approaching the holiday season with a variety of different celebrations in December and January. Let’s get right into it. Why are holidays and celebrations so important to people, especially the ones we celebrate this time of year?
... [Shortened for brevity, but the full corrected transcript continues here.]
Happy to be here.
And so it's a little quiet here in stores this week.
It's Thanksgiving week, whichis the the first opportunity our
students have here at UConn toreally go home for the entire week.
There's no classes.
So they've been going at it well beforeLabor Day when they moved in and it's
(00:59):
been it's been a busy fall semester sofar, but it is Thanksgiving week in the
beginning of the holiday season and it'sa little quiet here in, in stores today.
So our guest today here on the UConn360 podcast is uh, Dimitri Zigilatis.
Dimitri's an associateprofessor of anthropology.
But so much more.
He studies the things that make us human,as he puts it, but not the obvious ones.
(01:22):
He's interested in aspects likenature, rituals, music, sport, fanship,
and other things that help peopleconnect, cope, and live good lives.
His research methods are, includefield work that he has performed around
the world, and he's lived in sevendifferent countries, which we want
to talk to him a little bit about.
As we get going here at UConn, he'salso the head of the experimental
(01:43):
anthropology lab and served aspresident of the International
Association for the Cognitive andEvolutionary Sciences of Religion,
which sounds like quite a position.
He's worked as a translator,a photographer, a book editor,
and maybe most important to getthe human experience, a waiter.
So we'll we'll definitely want totalk to him about that as well.
So Dimitri, thank you for joiningus and happy Thanksgiving.
(02:05):
Thank you for having me.
It's great to be with you.
So we are we are here at Thanksgivingapproaching the holiday season
with a variety of differentcelebrations in December and January.
So we'll get right into it.
Why why are holidays and celebrationsso important to people, especially the
ones that we celebrate this time of year?
Dimitris (02:23):
Well, this is the big question that drives my entire research
agenda for the last two decades.
Some of these things, if anoutsider looks at them, they
might seem silly or pointless.
But of course, every single human societywe've ever known has had a set of rituals
and traditions that distinguish them.
Why are they important?
You already said it.
(02:43):
These are the things that make us human.
In many respects, these rituals andtraditions from a scientific perspective,
they seem as if they're engineered toincite certain feelings, to soothe our
anxieties, to bring us closer together,and in a way they are engineered.
They're engineered by the forcesof selection, and I'm talking here
about culture selection, which,of course, operates under the same
(03:06):
principles as natural selection.
That is generations andgenerations of trial and error.
Every single day, you will havethousands of new rituals created.
And, of course, very fewof them will survive.
The ones that persist, the onesthat people will perform time and
again are the ones that have these.
This capacity to make us feel better,to make us connect to one another.
(03:30):
So we can look at these kinds of things.
This is what my research is about.
What are some of the elementsof these rituals and traditions
that inside those feelings?
Well, for example, one thing thatrituals do is that they align the
way we behave, the way we appear,They synchronize our emotions.
They synchronize our,let's say, our clothing.
(03:52):
We all wear the same clothes.
We dance around the tree.
We chant at the same time.
We fall into rhythmicmovements and regularity.
And those have specific effects.
There's one thing that wecall phenotypic matching.
This is, we're not the onlyanimal that does this, but
we're particularly prone to it.
And this is the fact that we infer.
(04:14):
Who we're related to onthe basis of similarity.
There's, there's a ton of research thatshows that we, we preferentially hang
out with people who, who look like us.
Obviously our, our children willtend to look and behave like us.
And by getting us to act like oneanother, Let's say sing together or
engage in the same rhythmic motions bygetting us to look like one another by
(04:37):
wearing the same silly hats for exampleor the same insignia Those rituals
get us to to look like one another andby doing this we feel more like one
another They bring us closer together.
Leann (04:52):
So I know you Have lived all across the world.
When you're looking at the United States,do you see that we celebrate holidays?
And, you know, celebrate other things anydifferently than other parts of the world?
Dimitris (05:04):
Well, this is part of what ritual does.
It helps us, although it's a humanuniversal, every society we've ever
known off has had rituals and traditions.
They, they're also functioningto distinguish one culture
from from the next.
So superficially, all these things, ofcourse, they're they're very different.
And Halloween is a great example.
You know, growing up in Greece,certainly at the time, Halloween
(05:27):
was just not something we did.
It was something amusing that wewould see on on American films.
Of course, now it's something that isexpanding to the rest of the world.
But the fact that it was uniquelyNorth American is also one of the
Mike (05:47):
So, we mentioned Leanne does a lot of work here at UConn with social
media, and we seem in some ways ashumans to be more connected than ever.
Or that would be the appearance,whether it's through social media or
email, we're constantly on our phones.
And one might think, you know, Thisthis constant communication is a good
thing and maybe could replace rituals.
(06:07):
Is that the case, or are rituals evenmore important now because so much
of this communication we have is whatI would call artificial and fake?
Dimitris (06:17):
The way I see it, ritual is more important to us than ever.
And you're right about this, that thisappearance of increased connectivity
might be superficial or at least happeningat a different level than which we as a
species evolved to connect to one another.
And by that, I mean that intoday's world, people live ever
(06:38):
more remote to their families.
More and more of our interactionsare happening in a virtual space.
And we know that it's part of who we areas a as a species is our is our need to
get together physically in the same space.
And we have we have studies to toshow this that it's not the same
(07:02):
thing to engage in an action withsomebody else in a virtual space
compared to a physical space.
It's different.
It's it's different.
It's it's in a sense.
It's lesser in terms of whatwe need as human beings.
You know, physical, even thingslike physical touch are important.
But but the very fact that we'retogether in this studio right
(07:24):
now and not on a zoom call willmake our interaction flow better,
Mike (07:27):
right?
So it's it's it's it's do you thinkit's important for For parents with
as they're raising their Children,are rituals even so important as
you know, you want each other.
They were all on their phone.
Is it?
Is it more important than evernow for parents to make rituals
part of a family experience?
Dimitris (07:45):
Yeah, I would say it's just as important.
Of course, it's always been important.
And this is something that as ayoung parent, I have a four year
old now, it's really sinking in.
For example, in my household, wenever had a Christmas tree for
as long as we've been together.
We never felt the need.
But as soon as my son was born, we decidedwe're going to have a Christmas tree.
(08:06):
And, you know, whatever makes himsmile, we're going to have to do.
And whatever helps him, anchor himto a particular set of traditions
that he can look back to as an adult.
That would be very useful for him.
And there are, in fact, studiesthat show that children who take
part in more family rituals, theydevelop better relationships.
They're better adjusted in terms oftheir relationship with their family.
(08:27):
Interesting.
Leann (08:27):
I'm so excited to start, like, the holiday traditions with them.
Like the Christmas tree and stuff.
You know, it was around last year,but they didn't really understand it.
So that's what I'm,like, looking forward to.
Most excited for I think as beinga parent is like introducing
those rituals to hear that.
It's still as importantas it ever has been.
, Dimitris (08:42):
whatever else they do, these rituals and traditions.
They're also fun.
They're fun for thefor the adults as well.
They elicit warm feelings andthey create through the regularity
that they that they involve.
They create feelings of nostalgia.
It's something to look forward to.
And if you're and if you don't doit in a particular year, if you
when you move away, it's one ofthe first things that you notice
when you move to another country,something that I'm very familiar with.
(09:04):
It's those times of the year whereyou would be performing these family
rituals that that you might tendto be homesick and melancholic.
Mike (09:11):
Well, I think as a parent, too, as you as you connect your Children
with rituals, it also makes you reflectback on your childhood and your So
it's really a whole 360 experience.
Leann (09:24):
So obviously we're talking about the holiday season.
It's also basketball season, which may beconsidered the holiday season at UConn.
So what role does sportsplay in your research?
And can you explain how uniquelyAmerican college sports is?
Dimitris (09:37):
I'm doing more and more of my research on sports.
I'm also an avid sports fan.
I follow my my home team.
I never miss a game on television.
When I lived in Greece, I wouldnever miss a game in the stadium.
What team is that?
It's PAOK Thessaloniki.
And of course, I am talking aboutFootball, the one you play with your feet.
What we call soccer.
And the reason I'm interestedin in sports, especially sports
(10:01):
fanship is the ritual aspect.
I think it's precisely because of thoseritualized actions between the fans.
What happens at the periphery of the,of the game, not what's happening, not
so much what's happening in the pitch.
The most important part is, is thesesocial interactions between the fans.
That's what builds this sense ofcommunity and loyalty to the team.
(10:23):
And we have the data to show this.
If it was just about the game, youwould get the same kind of effect
just watching the game on television.
So in fact, we did a study of basketballgames of both men's and and women's
teams here on campus for a whole year.
And we had we're looking at physiologicalresponses among fans watching the game
in the stadium and others watchingthe game in groups on television.
(10:47):
And what we see is that when people watchthe game together in the stadium, their
physiological responses are more aligned.
So their emotions are more insync and that synchrony, that
emotional synchrony predicts boththeir experience of the game.
They have a more meaningfulexperience and the degree to which
they feel bonded to the team.
(11:08):
So sports is a lot of sports,a very big part of sports.
For me, the most importantpart is about those ritualized
interactions between the fans.
Mike (11:17):
You, you mentioned your, your passion for your soccer team in Greece.
What, what are your more, whatare, what are your impressions
of, of American sports fans?
Not just college sports fans, but, butpro sports fans, whether it's NFL or,
or baseball or hockey or, or the NBA.
Is it, is it different over herein any way than it is overseas?
I find it very different in, in what
Dimitris (11:36):
way?
You know, there was one time where Iwent to the to watch an NBA game with one
of my students at the time, a graduatestudent, and he was also European.
He was from Slovakia, and a few minutesinto the game, he turns and looks at me.
He says, This doesn'tfeel like a sports game.
And I said, I know exactly what youmean, but tell me, tell me what you mean.
(11:58):
And, of course, what he meantwas that in the in Europe, sports
have a more sacred character.
In the United States,you have all of these.
Things that happen peripherally.
You have things like cheerleadersand commercials and, you know, the
kiss cam and all of those thingsthat, in my opinion, they distract
from the game where I come from.
(12:18):
That would see that wouldbe seen as sacrilege.
You don't You don't look away fromthe game, even the fact that you
have the coach sometimes talk tothe press while the game is ongoing.
That would be somethingunacceptable where I come from.
So there's a sense in whichsports in my part of the world are
more religion than entertainment
Mike (12:38):
interest, and
Dimitris (12:38):
this comes with pros and cons.
I understand that from the perspectiveof sports clubs and associations and
organizations, you want to have a asbroad as reach as possible, and that helps
bring, for example, Children and familiesto the to the stadium because where I come
from things to get dangerous in the state.
So that's the dark side.
(13:00):
When football becomes religion,it also comes with religion.
Very serious rivalries, andsometimes things can turn violent.
Leann (13:07):
Well, I've heard, I've heard a thing or two about
the like the chants, too.
Like, the chants can be veryspecific, or, you know, very targeted.
Oh, you have no idea.
Impressive, but also, yeah,scary is also could be a word.
Dimitris (13:18):
The chants are so different.
You know, here they'revery, they're very simple.
It's like, let's go.
Let's go that.
Where I come from, the chants havetheir own lyrics, and they're very long.
And the, the length also helps.
Build the synchrony as you're chantingfor a couple of minutes together, and they
have narratives and they involve myths.
And those myths are sometimes aboutviolent events that have happened,
(13:39):
or they're intentionally so offensiveto the other side that would be
impossible for me to translate here.
So, yeah, extremely different.
Leann (13:47):
So music is such a big part of people's lives, but it seems like
everyone has their personal favorites.
So how does music bring us all together?
Dimitris (13:54):
Music functions in a very similar way as ritual does so music
is about rhythm obviously and and sois Ritual in so many other contexts.
So you have this It invites us to engagein repetitive motion Because we are,
we're primed for to, to respond to music.
So the first time I saw my my little boydance, I was, I was astonished because
(14:17):
he certainly didn't get it from me.
I'm a, I'm a terrible dancer.
I never dance.
But it comes to us intuitive intuitively.
So when we all get together and weplay music or we, let's say we attend a
concert, that is an invitation, or we'reat a dance floor, an invitation to move
in synchronous ways, much like ritualdance, to behave in synchronous ways.
And, and we know from tons of researchthat when we behave in synchronous ways
(14:41):
when we act as one, we feel as one.
Mike (14:45):
You know, this is going off script just a little bit here.
You know, we've talked, what happensto somebody when they don't partake in
rituals when they're not part of this?
What, what's What couldhappen to somebody?
Dimitris (14:58):
Well, first of all, it's, it's really rare to find people who
actually don't practice any rituals.
And many times I ask my students, Doyou regularly partake in any rituals?
And sometimes I get a lotof students who say no.
And then we get to talk aboutwhat a ritual is, right?
And because in their mind, I'm asking themwhether they go to a religious temple.
(15:20):
But of course, rituals everywhere.
Rituals in our handshakes.
And when we raise our, our glassesto, to make a toast when we enter a
courtroom and somebody says, all rise.
And then there's a, there's agable, or when we attend a, a
wedding or a, a graduation ceremony.
So you'll be very, very hardpressed to find an individual who
doesn't partake in in rituals.
Mike (15:41):
So going maybe to the same place every morning for coffee, in a way,
is somewhat of a ritual for somebody.
Dimitris (15:46):
You could see it like that.
My definition of ritual is that it issomething that has no causal transparency.
So it's sort of directly utilitarian act,you know, of course, you have your coffee
because of the the boost that it givesyou the energy or because of the taste.
But then if you develop this habit ofgoing to the same place every day, and
(16:08):
it has to be this particular place, orwhen I wake up and I have to have my
coffee in a very specific mug and evenif I don't have time to drink it, I
will still make it in the morning, evenif I have to just get a single sip.
Now this becomes a real ritual.
And since we talked aboutchildren, children really pick up
on this and they're very they'rereally obsessed with rituals.
They love rituals andthey love regularity.
(16:30):
So at some point I realized that when I,if I, Very rarely, if I forgot to take my
my coffee with me to work every morningbefore I had before I dropped him to the
daycare, he would turn and point and I'llsay, Papa, coffee, you forgot your coffee.
Leann (16:47):
So funny.
Mike (16:48):
You notice the same thing, Leigh Anne, with your kids?
Yes, and I
Leann (16:51):
was actually just thinking, who would have thought that, like, feeding
my dog would be a ritual in the morning?
But my kids, like, they verymuch, that's their chore, that
they get to help feed the dog.
So they each get a little scoop,they're twins, like I said, so
they each get a little scoop andthey have to put it in his bowl.
And they are so specificon how they have to do it.
They have to walk to the door first, andthen I have to walk to the door, and they
have to have the same scooper each time.
(17:12):
And then they also, he gets thyroidmedicine, so then they have to point
out that he needs the medicine.
And it's So I'd never reallythought of that, but I guess in a
way that is a ritual in that way.
That could be something they honestlylook back at as something that they
remember fondly as like they werehelping out or, you know, and I
think of it as just a chore or likea way to keep them entertained.
Dimitris (17:29):
Absolutely.
Leann (17:30):
If
Dimitris (17:30):
you ask most people what they remember most fondly from their
childhood, they're going to point to, tothings that were regular and repetitive.
And you know, every morning I willgo with grandpa and do this and that.
Leann (17:40):
Not special to me, but certainly special to them.
Mike (17:43):
So I think we said you lived in, you've lived in seven different countries.
Just give us a quickrundown of where you live.
That's amazing.
Dimitris (17:50):
So I grew up in Greece and I lived there until I was in college
and had never left my home country.
I've never been on a plane.
Until I was 21, 22.
And then I went on a on anexchange program to Denmark.
Europe has this large exchangeprogram called the Erasmus program.
And you can go pretty muchto any other university.
And I remember getting on this plane.
(18:10):
It was the, it was the first day of thenew millennium, exactly after midnight.
So it was a real rite of passage for me.
And I remember my mother telling mesomething like my wish to you is that
from now on you will never stop traveling.
And boy, it didn't.
She took that seriously.
Always listen to your mother, right?
That's a lesson there.
So I went to Denmark.
And I spent a semester there.
(18:30):
And, and that's when I realizedthat I wanted to be an academic.
That's when I realizedI wanted to go back.
I went back to Greece, finishedmy degree and went back to
Denmark again to do an MA.
And then in Denmark I metmy wife who is from Spain.
So we've lived in Denmark for,Spain together in between.
(18:51):
And then I went to Northern Ireland todo my PhD at Queen's University, Belfast.
I've spent a cumulative 2.
5 years in Mauritius, where Ido ethnographic fieldwork, and
I still go back every year.
And at some point, as I was working inDenmark now as faculty a group of people
in the Czech Republic asked me to go thereand help build a new research center.
(19:15):
So, I did that for three years, andthose were three wonderful years.
And after that, I got the job at UConn.
So that, that makes seven, if I'm correct.
Leann (19:25):
So tell us about your days as a waiter.
What did you learn frompeople at that job?
Dimitris (19:30):
Well, you you learn a lot of, a lot about people when you have to
interact with them in every every day.
One of the best things I learned wasthe value of hard work, and I started
working as a waiter when I was 14.
The only reason my parents allowedme to to do that at such a young age
was that the owner of the restaurantwas a family friend, but that
quickly turned into a regular thing.
(19:50):
So I started on weekends and theneventually I ended up working all of
my summers and all my my free time.
That's how I You know, I, I, I survivedthrough high school and, and, and college.
And you, you learn the same thingas you learn as anthropologists.
You learn that superficially peopleare so very different, but deep
(20:10):
down, we're all the same, right?
Mm-Hmm.
. We, we all crave food.
Mm-Hmm.
in this case.
And all of the other things that we, thatwe crave, we create ritual, for example.
Mm-Hmm.
. And, and, and of course food becomesextremely ritualized when you Mm-Hmm.
. When you start looking at people'shabits, you see those two aspects.
You see the variability.
Uh, That again is superficial.
And that's the first thing you notice.
(20:31):
And the more you work withpeople, you the more you come to
notice underlying similarities.
And I think that's also my trajectoryas anthropologist, which is frankly, the
trajectory of our discipline as a whole.
Anthropologist started as the as adiscipline that focused on differences.
Between people and, and then movedtowards looking at the similarities.
Mike (20:52):
You mentioned you and your wife have a four year old son.
What are your favorite familytraditions now that you have a son?
You talked a little bit about puttingup a Christmas tree for the first time.
Must be interesting becauseyou have both an American and
international outlook on the holidays.
Dimitris (21:04):
Yes, so we do and we, we try to, to blend in aspects of, of both.
So during during covid, for example,when he was he was just an infant, we
would have during all of those familyholidays, we would have them live with our
families participate via zoom, which, ofcourse, as we discussed, is not the same.
Now we're trying to have firmrules about family dinners.
(21:28):
We all do this together.
We're failing miserably, butwe'll get there as long as
you give it an effort, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
His favorite holiday currentlyis definitely Thanksgiving.
He's really excited about it.
Of course The Christmas period is alsovery dear to him because, you know,
he gets presents, he meets Santa.
(21:48):
So that, too, we're following.
And we'll see how othertraditions develop.
Mike (21:54):
Well, Dimitri, we really appreciate you spending some time with us here today
on the UConn 360 podcast and wish youand your family a great holiday season.
You too.
It's been a pleasure.
so much.
And Leanne, thanks for joining us today.
And the same for your, for your family.
Are you going to be doing a lotof cooking here soon, or is that
somewhere somebody else's duties?
Leann (22:10):
Thankfully, that's my mother in law's role.
She'll cook enough for the entirestate, so if you guys want to come
um, you know, the more the merrier.
Mike (22:16):
Well, I am off to uh, to get some holiday pies from the
uh, Yukon Bakery Shop because mybaking skills aren't that good.
So that's where I'm off to now.
So happy Thanksgiving to everybody
that
listens to Yukon 360 podcast.
And we hope you join usfor our next episode.
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