July 22, 2022 • 23 mins
Host Dave Mulholland, VHB Chief Technology Officer, is joined by Lilium’s Senior Manager of Public Policy Matt Broffman for a conversation in November 2021 about the first eVTOL (electric vertical takeoff and landing jet). This is amazing new technology which Lilium is currently developing - coming soon to Central Florida - that will revolutionize the way we travel between cities.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
(Mike Carragher)Viewpoints is VHB’s thought leadership platform,
where we share insights on critical issuesand emerging technologies in the AEC industry.
I’m Mike Carragher, President and CEO of VHB.
I’m excited to introduce VHB’sthought leaders and our client and partner
podcast participants—all future-focused thinkerswho want to reimagine the built environment.
(00:25):
I hope you’ll tune in often and leave inspired!
Thanks, Mike.
(Dave Mulholland)This is Dave
Mulholland, VHB Chief Technology Officer, and I’myour host for Viewpoints Podcast Episode
One-The Future of Advanced Air Mobility with Lilium:
eVTOL Jets Take To The Skies.
Today I’m joined by Lilium’sSenior Manager of Public Policy Matt Broffman
(00:45):
for a conversation about the very first eVTOL - electric vertical
takeoff and landing jet - which Lilium is currently developing.
Matt, thanks so much for joining me today.
(Matt Broffman)Thanks for having me, Dave.
(Dave Mulholland)Matt, I've heard you refer to yourself as a strategic activator.
What a great title.
For our Viewpoints listeners who don't know Lilium.
(01:05):
Tell us a little bit about the company and your role.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, so Lillium, we're an electric
vertical takeoff and landing aircraft manufacturer.
And so we've got probably now close to around 800 employees
that are in Munich, Germany,working on building this next generation
of aircraft that, as you mentioned, as we all to
(01:28):
you know, really bring people across the state of Florida.
And then we've got a handful of us that are here in the US
working to really lay the groundworkthat's going to enable a service for those vehicles.
Right.
The challenge with doing anything that is completelytransformative is sometimes the marketplace isn't always ready.
And so Lilium is taking the approach that we want to make surethe market is ready and getting the market ready
(01:49):
right from the verge of portsto make sure someone's operating the vehicles, etc.
And then obviously working with the community.
And so my role at Lilium is focused on just that ride,the community integration
side of things and working with cities and municipalitiesand counties across Florida
to make sure that we find the right locations to land inand that the infrastructure is ready for these vehicles.
(02:10):
(Dave Mulholland)How is NASA involved with this?
You talk about the stakeholders.
There's a lot of people that are looking at this.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, You know, every look,
every city, for the most part, is going to be involvedin this at some point in the future.
Right.
And I think, you know,I was obviously before this with the city of Orlando.
And you know, Mayor Dyer took a lean in approach,which was, OK, if this is going to happen.
(02:32):
The city of Orlando, I think, made a major diamond.
It made a smart choice to saywe want to have a seat at the table.
And so Lilium partnered with Orlando and Tavistock Development,
which is a developer for Lake Nona,to announce that first report.
In Lake Nona.
Orlando has since gone onand is working obviously with VHB on a plan
that Lilium is excited to be a stakeholder in.
(02:55):
And NASA's supporting as well.
And so there's a lot of stakeholders.
And one of the challenges, right, from a city perspectiveis this work.
There isn't a director of a in any city, right?
There's not a director of advanced air mobility,any city or county.
And even that I'm aware of any state. Right.
And so when you start to think about that, where does it fit?
And so there ends up being a lot of peoplethat need to come to the table
(03:17):
to have these conversations and to think through this.
And that's a lot of the work that we're doing,is making sure that we're talking with the right folks, that
the cities and counties.
(Dave Mulholland)When is Lilium anticipating to be open and operational for the public?
(Matt Broffman)So we're on track to
have our certification of our vehicle in 2024
and to have our first commercial passengers in late 24, early 25.
(03:40):
And our entry into the service market is the U.S.
and in the US it is Florida, right.
So we anticipate flying passengers in Floridathe next four or five years here
and that network will continue to grow throughoutFlorida We're obviously working on a network
in our home country and Germany as well
and having conversation partners all across the globe.
(04:02):
But Florida is going to be this first market for Lilium,
where we're taking our jetand working with a partner to bring it into service.
And, you know, in terms of inevitability, you can look at what,
you know, folks, folks write about.
But, you know, the reality is, you know,
depending on, you know, regardless of a specific date, right.
This is going to change the way people move regionally.
(04:24):
And even long term within cities.
And I think that, you know, when you look at evolutionsof transportation, I found this great,
you know,
a cartoon political cartoonfrom when cars were first being introduced
and it was like this fight overwhether there should be speed limits or not.
And obviously, like that's that's an interesting fight to
to think about having nowthan we have probably in the other direction now in cities.
(04:46):
Right. But, you know, I think that's where we're going to be is
we're going to be not about do we want thesewhere are they going to go?
But it's going to be the nuances of where,you know, how large should Verna Ports be?
How often should they be taking offand how should they be subsidized long term.
Right by government. Right.
Whether that's the United States or somewhere else abroad. Right.
These are going to be have the opportunityto move large amounts of people.
(05:10):
And I think government and cities and counties are goingto get involved in a very different way than than they are today.
But I think just as with cars, this is about change.
This is the boats, right?
That evolution takes time.
And so,you know, we're excited that Liliums going to be the first one
in the United States operating and to really begin that shiftand take cities and counties along with us.
Right. This is a learning experience for everyone.
(05:31):
And we want to have partners at tableso that cities can kind of figure out the right way
to play in this spaceand to do it in a way that that benefits the residents.
(Dave Mulholland)It's exciting to see what Lilium is doing in this in the short time frame when you think you're about 20, 25.
Right, you know.
So let's move towards talking about the vehicle self
because really this is where the magic happensand this is the strength of what Lilium brings to this.
(05:53):
How many vehicles does the team expect to have in the skywhen we're actually approaching that?
20, 25.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
So there'll be obviously a ramp up ratebecause both with infrastructure
and with vehicles, but over time we anticipatehaving about 125 jets flying in Florida when we get our network
fully up and running and that network is the 14 version of portsthat we've been announced.
(06:13):
You know, it's interestingbecause we think of it as, as jets because obviously the people
are going to be getting on these vehiclesand so we talk about capacity, we always think about jets,
but you know, it's really infrastructure, right,that when we have infrastructure there's going to be more
and we can talk about this in a bit.
But you know, the gates and the movement at the infrastructureand so while jets
obviously are the important piece and the compelling pieceof how to remove people, the infrastructure, you know,
(06:37):
at the end of the day is going to be the limiting factorfor any network of how you can move.
Right. If you think about today, you know, yes.
You know, you need to make sure you get airplanes, youto make sure you get trains.
But, you know, getting trains is pretty easy building the tracks.
If the tracks aren't there and the stations aren't built,it doesn't really matter if you've got the trains.
And so it's both the jets, the number of jets,but also the number of ports.
And we anticipate having 14 ports in Florida.
(07:00):
(Matt Broffman)So there's about
there's a little over 300 manufacturers of atolls out there,if not more than that these days.
How do you describe the difference that William bringsand the difference between that and the helicopter?
Yeah.
(Matt Broffman)So, you know, I think that the unique kind of piece for Lillian first,
you know, it's our what we call our ductedelectric blaster vector thrush jets.
(07:22):
And these, you know, jets are essentially pushing Air Force36 of them on our vehicle.
That's what's pushing air downso that we can take off vertically.
And then that pushes it horizontally in a transitionthat we fly like a traditional airplane
that is very unique to the design of the aircraft.
And that, you know, is unique and does a couple of things.
One, it's ultra redundancy, right?
With 36, you know, you have the ability to be able
(07:45):
to operate it, you know, in failureto they're actually self-contained and so they, you know,
you don't have these open, open blades that it couldpotentially be a safety hazard both if someone gets you closer.
But also if one were to break and then,you know, probably most important is the noise factor, right?
So these are actually acoustic lined to bring down the noise
(08:05):
profile of the aircraft and then you know, not to mention.
Right.
Which was what they talked about, but, you know,because they're all electric.
Right. The abilityfor that to also help increase our range. So we're
operating like a fixed wing
we are operating like an aircraft,which is a very efficient way for us to operate.
So those are kind of you know, what we think of, you know,
is that one of the compelling differentiators,what that has meant also is because of that,
(08:29):
we have actually, I believe,have one of the highest passenger counts for any vehicle.
Right. So we have six passengers in our vehicle.
And if you're looking athow much are these going to cost in the future?
Right. The biggest determination,of course, is your doctor, right?
We know from any transportation system,if you're a bus carrying one person, right.
It's going to cost a lot more per passenger than if you're a buscarrying 30 people are the same goes in the air.
(08:50):
So the more people we can actually put on on a vehicle,
the less cost the operators will have to operate per passenger
which means it can really, you know, bring down the costand make this more accessible for more people.
You know, in terms of what we'rehow we're different than than a helicopter,
I think it's probably easier to say,how are similar to helicopter?
It meant that we both take off vertically and we go in the sky.
(09:10):
We don't like to think of ourselves as an air taxibecause it really lends people to think that you're going to be
hailing these.
Right, that this is an idea like an Uber or Lyftwhere you might just, you know,
quickly get in one on demand.
But in order to reach, you know, efficiencies earlyon, you will have scheduled service.
Right.
We want to make sure that we have that high load factorthat we are
making purposeful network buildingwhen we build our route, when our operator builds the routes.
(09:33):
Right. That's where it's going to be more efficient.
So it's really not an air taxi.
You know, we hear people talk about flying cars, obviouslynot a flying car, because that would have,
you know, as my seven year old son would say,if it's a flying car, it would drive on the road
you know, we're not going to be driving these on the road.
They're also be commercially piloted. Right.
So it's a good reminder that people aren'tgoing to be individually flying these things around the sky.
These will be commercial pilotsjust like any other aircraft that would be taking passengers. So.
(09:57):
(Dave Mulholland)So there's a lot there to unpack, right?
Yeah.
You brought up noise.
So I'd like to go to the noise side of this.
One of the biggest perceptions from a new technology
is that there would be significant amount of noisethat would come out of that.
You know, so how does the noise of a Lilium eVTOL compare
to, say, a vehicle, a passenger car?
(10:17):
How loud will it be?
You know, is a person sitting in there in their housegoing to hear it in their living room?
(Matt Broffman)No, to the living room. Right.
Because the nice thing is we have one of the lowest profile
noise profiles for even this type of of an aircraft.
But certainly way lower than a helicopter,a traditional aircraft.
So what we're talking about is, you know, about 60 decibels,
(10:39):
you know, from about a half a mile, five meters away.
And, you know, that noise profile means, you know, reallyanybody that would be nearby is barely going to hear it.
And then when it's, you know, at altitude and cruising, it'll be,you know, basically an audible.
I've had the the the privilege of being ableto see our aircraft in Germany.
And I can validate that. It is an incredibly quiet vehicle.
(11:00):
And this is a technology demonstratedthat doesn't even have all the acoustic technology in it.
And, you know, so that's part of what enables this aircraftto do things that we've never been able to do in aviation.
Right.
In terms of where we land,looking at urban environments near downtown.
And I think that, you know, it's it's incredibly difficult.
We talk about inevitability.
It's hard to get people to wrap their head aroundbecause, you know, no one's seen these
(11:22):
like most people haven't seen these aircraftbut the other thing you wrap your head around is noise, right?
And the work that I've done in the pastand how you've done them and the V does, it's
always difficult to get the public to understand
what noise is when they haven't heard it. Right.
We can talk about decibels.
We can talk about wavelengths,we can talk about all these things, that noise profile.
But I think until people see it, they hear it and they touch it.
(11:44):
That's when it will be real.
And people realize how little of an impact this has.
From this perspective.
(Dave Mulholland)It would
be interesting to actually have some test casesbrought over to the U.S.
so that folks can actually see the vehicle and hear the vehicle.
You're right.
It's it's a touch point that people actually need to see in orderto get their heads wrapped around it.
60 decibels is not a significant amount of noisecoming out of the vehicle.
(12:05):
Right.
When you think about the ambientnoise of a traffic on that on the roadway.
Speaking of the vehicle you referred to,
the vehicle actually having the passenger count,I believe you said six passengers currently
with the loads and with the demands on the electric side.
How big do you expect the vehicles to get?
You know, we have, you know, a lot of tourism in central Florida.
(12:28):
And, you know, to go from a six passenger to somethinga little bit larger to accommodate maybe the tourism side.
Are you guys looking at that?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
I mean, obviously, the more the more passengerswe can put on an airplane, right.
We're just talking about the art,the better that that makes our economics for the passengers
and their impacts for the company operating and for us as well.
And so we are and we've announced and we sure publicly thatwe are working on a 16 passenger version of our aircraft right.
(12:51):
And again, another unique component
of our design and architecture of our aircraftis that we can scale without having the aircraft
have to actually get substantial largerobviously have to be larger if you're going from six to 16.
But the amount of space that we will need to occupy on, say,a landing on a landing facility
or a port does not exponentially increase.
(13:13):
And the technology really allows us toto to increase that over time.
And so, you know, to me this idea that we could eventuallyhave these 16 passenger versions flying around in Florida
and really across the country and across the globereally begins to get exciting about what we would be able to do.
But even at six passengers, rightwe think of six passengers as being relatively small.
(13:34):
We think about public transport.
But when you think about the throughput again from a single bird,
a port that you could provide that can get pretty high.
And let's also not forget thatunfortunately today most people are driving around
and you probably know the exact stat,but with about one point something people in their car, right?
So six is already exponentially
almost exponentially bigger than what we're getting on the roads.
(13:55):
(Dave Mulholland)How do you see the battery technology evolving over the next decade?
You know, one of the questions I had asked of mewas, are there going to be a spare battery in this thing?
Is the vehicles going to have backup systems for.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
So let's you know, first of all, we'veannounced a battery partner, smart cell.
Who is they are both working in the aviation space,
(14:17):
but also I believe they're the supplier for Porsche and,you know, a battery technology company
that has some great experience.
We've got a bunch of engineers working on the exact composition
and and working to continually improve the battery technologyfor the aircraft
in terms of, you know, having a battery in this,you know, enabling flight.
(14:38):
Right.
From a safety respectivesafety is the number one thing that Lilium is focused on.
And so our aircraft is ultra redundant, right?
So there's it's not one batterythere are many batteries powering that aircraft.
And so that we can have an individual batterynot only, you know, die per se, but actually on a runaway.
Right.
They're self-contained from a from a fire perspective. Right.
(14:59):
So that if there was an issue,it would be self contained to that battery.
The pilot would be alerted to it.
They'd be able to make a safelanding at the appropriate location.
And deal with that on the ground. Right.
So we want to make sure that we have ultra redundancyin this aircraft so that there isn't
that single point of failure where if one thing goes wrong,the aircraft is in trouble.
And so the battery technology is where, you know, it'sone of those places where that really is first and foremost.
(15:24):
We know that battery in the sky, as you know, is relatively new.
And so we want to make sure that people believethere is actual safety, right?
Like we want to make sure that this is
a safe vehicle, but we also want to make surewe are able to communicate
to passengers, to regulatorsand to the public about how this is a safe vehicle.
And so we'll be putting out a lot more informationas we get closer to our entry into service, specifically
(15:48):
about that design technologyand how we have the ultra dynamic built in
not just from batteries,but with the engines, with all of our avionics as well.
And we're using, you know, think seriously about safety.
We're using existing partnerswho have, you know, these certification and aviation experience
and know what it takes to build this technologyso that it is safe for the skies.
Right.
(16:08):
We all know that if you had a battery issue in your electric car,right, you pull over to the side of the road.
We understand that that's not how it works in the sky.
And we want to make sure that we've got redundant technology,that there are no safety issues that come up on our aircraft.
(Dave Mulholland)So one of the
challenges with batteries is the charge time, right?
That's often discussed, you know,so what is the charging time for a loading vehicle to turn?
(16:33):
So, for example, you land in Orlando,you want to turn it around and do a flight over to Tampa.
How long is it going to take us to get that charge?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, so we are currently at a point where we
we are have share that we can recharge 80%
in 15 minutes and 100% in 30 minutes.
And you know, I know and I've talked to our engineers, you know,
(16:53):
they are always working to reduce that time
but also understanding that, you know,
turning an aircraft in 30 minutes is also a pretty high feateven if you didn't have charge.
Right.
So there is a bunch of operational things that have to be in playas well to make sure we can turn the aircraft quickly
and just think about any large aircraft you get on.
You know how long it waits, even think about how longyour uber Lyft waits for you sometimes when they show up.
(17:16):
But yes, from a charging perspective, it's 15 minutes
to get to 80% and 30 minutes to get to 100%.
So we think that that allows us to operate at that high frequency
that we would need to to make this really economically a success.
Is there
is there like an ideal optimum speed that you're traveling atfor that to get the maximum life out of a battery?
(17:37):
And then the second question is how far can these vehicles go?
Yeah.
So the vehicles themselves can travel up 175 miles an hour
and we have about one up to 150, 135 mile range.
And that's with the reserves that the FAA would require,that we would require
from a safety perspectiveto make sure that if there is an issue, we need to go around
or we couldn't land at the intended verdict port,we're able to go to an alternative or to court.
(18:00):
Again, we want to make sure we're adhering to the great safetystandards that already exist for aircraft.
You know, the FAA and the also we're also being certified,
you know, have really strict standardsfor aircraft safety to make sure that we can get
to where we need to get to.
But 150 up to 150 is the current rangebased off of the current battery technology
and the aircraft that we are looking to bring to Florida.
(18:24):
(Dave Mulholland)So so you brought up FAA, right?
And it's one of those that there's a lot of regulationsand restrictions
with FAA getting involved on anything in the sky.
And there's a lot, a lot going on in the sky these days.
So how is FAA going to manage the battles?
And then you know, the flight patterns for these vehicles?
(18:46):
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think to kind of start to put that framework out,
you know, when we think about the FAA
and even in Europe, the ACA,what the regulatory role is that they're all playing.
Right. You know, first and foremost is safety.
And so they're looking at you know, reallythink of it as three buckets, right?
The first is the aircraft itself, right?
(19:06):
And so there are type two certifying the aircraft,
which is really looking to make sure that the aircraft itself
with that, they actually also certify the organizationas a safe organization.
But, you know,think about the aircraft is kind of that one piece.
They're also going to, you know, look at and reviewfrom an FAA perspective all of the vertical force, right.
To make sure they're safe to operate out of.
(19:27):
And then the entity that is operatingthe vehicle also have these certified by the FAA.
Right.
So there's kind of three areas that doesn't talk about eventhe pilots that obviously have to go through a training program.
But, you know, kind of those three areas,then when you get into the sky,
the good news is we are able to operatejust like any kind of general aviation aircraft.
(19:48):
And so that's where we'll be flying, how we'll be flying, right?
So on on launch, we'll be using visual flight rules
and following all the FAA procedures that exist to date.
And, you know, we believe just as,you know, any any of our competitors I know
do and everyone out there in the industry believes,you know, the FAA will progress.
Right. We're looking at this kind of crawl,walk, run approach. Right?
So, you know, we talked about, you know, 100plus aircraft that we want to have fully in the Florida network.
(20:13):
You know, while a hundred sounds like, you know, a lot
when you give the amount of aircraft,they're up in the sky probably right now in Florida.
It's not a substantial increase.
And, you know,we believe that we can operate within the existing rules,
you know, making sure that the towers that we're going
we're entering into any of their airspace
or even going near their airspace,they all have a great awareness of how we're operating.
(20:34):
And the nice thing about, you know, the folksthat will be operating the aircraft is going to be predictable.
Right.
Today, a pilot goes up and maybe they're doing a flight schoolor they're going on a leisure trip.
Either, you know, their course is going to be different.
Right.
It's a net new somethingthat's out there that is wasn't the same as it was yesterday.
If we're flying Orlando to Tampa or flying Orlando to Tampa,you know, pretty much the same route every day.
(20:56):
You know, everyone in the sky and those on the groundare going to be very aware of of of how we're operating.
And so that makes us way more predictablethan, you know, a typical airport would be.
But that's essentially how we'll be operating on day one.
(Dave Mulholland)The generally
aviation you reference, and you referred to a couple of timesthe use of a pilot.
You know, I'm going to go towards the next gen on this.
(21:17):
Do you see a time when these are fully autonomous?
And if so, maybe about proximity?
When do you see that happening?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I don't know that I could even begin to guess.
I think, you know, I'm a futurist or if I if I had picked
when we'd have autonomous vehicles,that that time is already probably passed.
But, you know, I think for,
you know, autonomy in the sky is, you know, has its challenges.
(21:40):
I think what we'll see first
and what what our company has shared, you know,we would be looking towards well before any autonomy in the sky.
This is remote piloting right
and when you think about what that does, right,it does two things.
One, it opens up another seat, right?
So we're talking about the economics of how this work.
It opens up another seat.
And two, it also allows for, you know, better controlover all the aircraft that are out there.
And, you know, having a pilot in our aircraft,which is what we're going to have on day one.
(22:03):
And, you know, as we build it out our network into Florida,
you know, that gives a lot of comfort,not just the FAA, but to our passengers, right.
To the community and to the public that we are going to havea commercially a commercial pilot in these aircraft flying
and and they're just, you know, other than being electricand that they take off
vertically, they can operate just like every other aircraftthat's in the sky.
That level of comfort is needed to get people into the jets,get the FAA to approve the jets.
(22:28):
But but long term, yeah. You know, I think remotely piloted.
And then sometime in the future,I'm sure there'll be a time in the skies.
But, you know,I think that there's a lot to do before we get there.
(Dave Mulholland)Matt, I sincerely appreciate your insight on Liliums eVTOL.
It's definitely a game changing activity.
And I can't wait to see it in practice.
And thank you to the listeners tuning in to VHB Viewpoints today.
(22:51):
My conversation with Matt is not over.
We'll be digging into the complexities of vertiportsand the passenger experience for advanced
air mobility travel in a future Viewpoints episode with Matt.
(Mike Carragher)Viewpoints is VHB’s thought leadership platform,
where we share insights on critical issuesand emerging technologies in the AEC industry.
I’m Mike Carragher, President and CEO of VHB.
I’m excited to introduce VHB’sthought leaders and our client and partner
podcast participants—all future-focused thinkerswho want to reimagine the built environment.
(00:25):
I hope you’ll tune in often and leave inspired!
Thanks, Mike.
(Dave Mulholland)This is Dave
Mulholland, VHB Chief Technology Officer, and I’myour host for Viewpoints Podcast Episode
One-The Future of Advanced Air Mobility with Lilium:
eVTOL Jets Take To The Skies.
Today I’m joined by Lilium’sSenior Manager of Public Policy Matt Broffman
(00:45):
for a conversation about the very first eVTOL - electric vertical
takeoff and landing jet - which Lilium is currently developing.
Matt, thanks so much for joining me today.
(Matt Broffman)Thanks for having me, Dave.
(Dave Mulholland)Matt, I've heard you refer to yourself as a strategic activator.
What a great title.
For our Viewpoints listeners who don't know Lilium.
(01:05):
Tell us a little bit about the company and your role.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, so Lillium, we're an electric
vertical takeoff and landing aircraft manufacturer.
And so we've got probably now close to around 800 employees
that are in Munich, Germany,working on building this next generation
of aircraft that, as you mentioned, as we all to
(01:28):
you know, really bring people across the state of Florida.
And then we've got a handful of us that are here in the US
working to really lay the groundworkthat's going to enable a service for those vehicles.
Right.
The challenge with doing anything that is completelytransformative is sometimes the marketplace isn't always ready.
And so Lilium is taking the approach that we want to make surethe market is ready and getting the market ready
(01:49):
right from the verge of portsto make sure someone's operating the vehicles, etc.
And then obviously working with the community.
And so my role at Lilium is focused on just that ride,the community integration
side of things and working with cities and municipalitiesand counties across Florida
to make sure that we find the right locations to land inand that the infrastructure is ready for these vehicles.
(02:10):
(Dave Mulholland)How is NASA involved with this?
You talk about the stakeholders.
There's a lot of people that are looking at this.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, You know, every look,
every city, for the most part, is going to be involvedin this at some point in the future.
Right.
And I think, you know,I was obviously before this with the city of Orlando.
And you know, Mayor Dyer took a lean in approach,which was, OK, if this is going to happen.
(02:32):
The city of Orlando, I think, made a major diamond.
It made a smart choice to saywe want to have a seat at the table.
And so Lilium partnered with Orlando and Tavistock Development,
which is a developer for Lake Nona,to announce that first report.
In Lake Nona.
Orlando has since gone onand is working obviously with VHB on a plan
that Lilium is excited to be a stakeholder in.
(02:55):
And NASA's supporting as well.
And so there's a lot of stakeholders.
And one of the challenges, right, from a city perspectiveis this work.
There isn't a director of a in any city, right?
There's not a director of advanced air mobility,any city or county.
And even that I'm aware of any state. Right.
And so when you start to think about that, where does it fit?
And so there ends up being a lot of peoplethat need to come to the table
(03:17):
to have these conversations and to think through this.
And that's a lot of the work that we're doing,is making sure that we're talking with the right folks, that
the cities and counties.
(Dave Mulholland)When is Lilium anticipating to be open and operational for the public?
(Matt Broffman)So we're on track to
have our certification of our vehicle in 2024
and to have our first commercial passengers in late 24, early 25.
(03:40):
And our entry into the service market is the U.S.
and in the US it is Florida, right.
So we anticipate flying passengers in Floridathe next four or five years here
and that network will continue to grow throughoutFlorida We're obviously working on a network
in our home country and Germany as well
and having conversation partners all across the globe.
(04:02):
But Florida is going to be this first market for Lilium,
where we're taking our jetand working with a partner to bring it into service.
And, you know, in terms of inevitability, you can look at what,
you know, folks, folks write about.
But, you know, the reality is, you know,
depending on, you know, regardless of a specific date, right.
This is going to change the way people move regionally.
(04:24):
And even long term within cities.
And I think that, you know, when you look at evolutionsof transportation, I found this great,
you know,
a cartoon political cartoonfrom when cars were first being introduced
and it was like this fight overwhether there should be speed limits or not.
And obviously, like that's that's an interesting fight to
to think about having nowthan we have probably in the other direction now in cities.
(04:46):
Right. But, you know, I think that's where we're going to be is
we're going to be not about do we want thesewhere are they going to go?
But it's going to be the nuances of where,you know, how large should Verna Ports be?
How often should they be taking offand how should they be subsidized long term.
Right by government. Right.
Whether that's the United States or somewhere else abroad. Right.
These are going to be have the opportunityto move large amounts of people.
(05:10):
And I think government and cities and counties are goingto get involved in a very different way than than they are today.
But I think just as with cars, this is about change.
This is the boats, right?
That evolution takes time.
And so,you know, we're excited that Liliums going to be the first one
in the United States operating and to really begin that shiftand take cities and counties along with us.
Right. This is a learning experience for everyone.
(05:31):
And we want to have partners at tableso that cities can kind of figure out the right way
to play in this spaceand to do it in a way that that benefits the residents.
(Dave Mulholland)It's exciting to see what Lilium is doing in this in the short time frame when you think you're about 20, 25.
Right, you know.
So let's move towards talking about the vehicle self
because really this is where the magic happensand this is the strength of what Lilium brings to this.
(05:53):
How many vehicles does the team expect to have in the skywhen we're actually approaching that?
20, 25.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
So there'll be obviously a ramp up ratebecause both with infrastructure
and with vehicles, but over time we anticipatehaving about 125 jets flying in Florida when we get our network
fully up and running and that network is the 14 version of portsthat we've been announced.
(06:13):
You know, it's interestingbecause we think of it as, as jets because obviously the people
are going to be getting on these vehiclesand so we talk about capacity, we always think about jets,
but you know, it's really infrastructure, right,that when we have infrastructure there's going to be more
and we can talk about this in a bit.
But you know, the gates and the movement at the infrastructureand so while jets
obviously are the important piece and the compelling pieceof how to remove people, the infrastructure, you know,
(06:37):
at the end of the day is going to be the limiting factorfor any network of how you can move.
Right. If you think about today, you know, yes.
You know, you need to make sure you get airplanes, youto make sure you get trains.
But, you know, getting trains is pretty easy building the tracks.
If the tracks aren't there and the stations aren't built,it doesn't really matter if you've got the trains.
And so it's both the jets, the number of jets,but also the number of ports.
And we anticipate having 14 ports in Florida.
(07:00):
(Matt Broffman)So there's about
there's a little over 300 manufacturers of atolls out there,if not more than that these days.
How do you describe the difference that William bringsand the difference between that and the helicopter?
Yeah.
(Matt Broffman)So, you know, I think that the unique kind of piece for Lillian first,
you know, it's our what we call our ductedelectric blaster vector thrush jets.
(07:22):
And these, you know, jets are essentially pushing Air Force36 of them on our vehicle.
That's what's pushing air downso that we can take off vertically.
And then that pushes it horizontally in a transitionthat we fly like a traditional airplane
that is very unique to the design of the aircraft.
And that, you know, is unique and does a couple of things.
One, it's ultra redundancy, right?
With 36, you know, you have the ability to be able
(07:45):
to operate it, you know, in failureto they're actually self-contained and so they, you know,
you don't have these open, open blades that it couldpotentially be a safety hazard both if someone gets you closer.
But also if one were to break and then,you know, probably most important is the noise factor, right?
So these are actually acoustic lined to bring down the noise
(08:05):
profile of the aircraft and then you know, not to mention.
Right.
Which was what they talked about, but, you know,because they're all electric.
Right. The abilityfor that to also help increase our range. So we're
operating like a fixed wing
we are operating like an aircraft,which is a very efficient way for us to operate.
So those are kind of you know, what we think of, you know,
is that one of the compelling differentiators,what that has meant also is because of that,
(08:29):
we have actually, I believe,have one of the highest passenger counts for any vehicle.
Right. So we have six passengers in our vehicle.
And if you're looking athow much are these going to cost in the future?
Right. The biggest determination,of course, is your doctor, right?
We know from any transportation system,if you're a bus carrying one person, right.
It's going to cost a lot more per passenger than if you're a buscarrying 30 people are the same goes in the air.
(08:50):
So the more people we can actually put on on a vehicle,
the less cost the operators will have to operate per passenger
which means it can really, you know, bring down the costand make this more accessible for more people.
You know, in terms of what we'rehow we're different than than a helicopter,
I think it's probably easier to say,how are similar to helicopter?
It meant that we both take off vertically and we go in the sky.
(09:10):
We don't like to think of ourselves as an air taxibecause it really lends people to think that you're going to be
hailing these.
Right, that this is an idea like an Uber or Lyftwhere you might just, you know,
quickly get in one on demand.
But in order to reach, you know, efficiencies earlyon, you will have scheduled service.
Right.
We want to make sure that we have that high load factorthat we are
making purposeful network buildingwhen we build our route, when our operator builds the routes.
(09:33):
Right. That's where it's going to be more efficient.
So it's really not an air taxi.
You know, we hear people talk about flying cars, obviouslynot a flying car, because that would have,
you know, as my seven year old son would say,if it's a flying car, it would drive on the road
you know, we're not going to be driving these on the road.
They're also be commercially piloted. Right.
So it's a good reminder that people aren'tgoing to be individually flying these things around the sky.
These will be commercial pilotsjust like any other aircraft that would be taking passengers. So.
(09:57):
(Dave Mulholland)So there's a lot there to unpack, right?
Yeah.
You brought up noise.
So I'd like to go to the noise side of this.
One of the biggest perceptions from a new technology
is that there would be significant amount of noisethat would come out of that.
You know, so how does the noise of a Lilium eVTOL compare
to, say, a vehicle, a passenger car?
(10:17):
How loud will it be?
You know, is a person sitting in there in their housegoing to hear it in their living room?
(Matt Broffman)No, to the living room. Right.
Because the nice thing is we have one of the lowest profile
noise profiles for even this type of of an aircraft.
But certainly way lower than a helicopter,a traditional aircraft.
So what we're talking about is, you know, about 60 decibels,
(10:39):
you know, from about a half a mile, five meters away.
And, you know, that noise profile means, you know, reallyanybody that would be nearby is barely going to hear it.
And then when it's, you know, at altitude and cruising, it'll be,you know, basically an audible.
I've had the the the privilege of being ableto see our aircraft in Germany.
And I can validate that. It is an incredibly quiet vehicle.
(11:00):
And this is a technology demonstratedthat doesn't even have all the acoustic technology in it.
And, you know, so that's part of what enables this aircraftto do things that we've never been able to do in aviation.
Right.
In terms of where we land,looking at urban environments near downtown.
And I think that, you know, it's it's incredibly difficult.
We talk about inevitability.
It's hard to get people to wrap their head aroundbecause, you know, no one's seen these
(11:22):
like most people haven't seen these aircraftbut the other thing you wrap your head around is noise, right?
And the work that I've done in the pastand how you've done them and the V does, it's
always difficult to get the public to understand
what noise is when they haven't heard it. Right.
We can talk about decibels.
We can talk about wavelengths,we can talk about all these things, that noise profile.
But I think until people see it, they hear it and they touch it.
(11:44):
That's when it will be real.
And people realize how little of an impact this has.
From this perspective.
(Dave Mulholland)It would
be interesting to actually have some test casesbrought over to the U.S.
so that folks can actually see the vehicle and hear the vehicle.
You're right.
It's it's a touch point that people actually need to see in orderto get their heads wrapped around it.
60 decibels is not a significant amount of noisecoming out of the vehicle.
(12:05):
Right.
When you think about the ambientnoise of a traffic on that on the roadway.
Speaking of the vehicle you referred to,
the vehicle actually having the passenger count,I believe you said six passengers currently
with the loads and with the demands on the electric side.
How big do you expect the vehicles to get?
You know, we have, you know, a lot of tourism in central Florida.
(12:28):
And, you know, to go from a six passenger to somethinga little bit larger to accommodate maybe the tourism side.
Are you guys looking at that?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
I mean, obviously, the more the more passengerswe can put on an airplane, right.
We're just talking about the art,the better that that makes our economics for the passengers
and their impacts for the company operating and for us as well.
And so we are and we've announced and we sure publicly thatwe are working on a 16 passenger version of our aircraft right.
(12:51):
And again, another unique component
of our design and architecture of our aircraftis that we can scale without having the aircraft
have to actually get substantial largerobviously have to be larger if you're going from six to 16.
But the amount of space that we will need to occupy on, say,a landing on a landing facility
or a port does not exponentially increase.
(13:13):
And the technology really allows us toto to increase that over time.
And so, you know, to me this idea that we could eventuallyhave these 16 passenger versions flying around in Florida
and really across the country and across the globereally begins to get exciting about what we would be able to do.
But even at six passengers, rightwe think of six passengers as being relatively small.
(13:34):
We think about public transport.
But when you think about the throughput again from a single bird,
a port that you could provide that can get pretty high.
And let's also not forget thatunfortunately today most people are driving around
and you probably know the exact stat,but with about one point something people in their car, right?
So six is already exponentially
almost exponentially bigger than what we're getting on the roads.
(13:55):
(Dave Mulholland)How do you see the battery technology evolving over the next decade?
You know, one of the questions I had asked of mewas, are there going to be a spare battery in this thing?
Is the vehicles going to have backup systems for.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
So let's you know, first of all, we'veannounced a battery partner, smart cell.
Who is they are both working in the aviation space,
(14:17):
but also I believe they're the supplier for Porsche and,you know, a battery technology company
that has some great experience.
We've got a bunch of engineers working on the exact composition
and and working to continually improve the battery technologyfor the aircraft
in terms of, you know, having a battery in this,you know, enabling flight.
(14:38):
Right.
From a safety respectivesafety is the number one thing that Lilium is focused on.
And so our aircraft is ultra redundant, right?
So there's it's not one batterythere are many batteries powering that aircraft.
And so that we can have an individual batterynot only, you know, die per se, but actually on a runaway.
Right.
They're self-contained from a from a fire perspective. Right.
(14:59):
So that if there was an issue,it would be self contained to that battery.
The pilot would be alerted to it.
They'd be able to make a safelanding at the appropriate location.
And deal with that on the ground. Right.
So we want to make sure that we have ultra redundancyin this aircraft so that there isn't
that single point of failure where if one thing goes wrong,the aircraft is in trouble.
And so the battery technology is where, you know, it'sone of those places where that really is first and foremost.
(15:24):
We know that battery in the sky, as you know, is relatively new.
And so we want to make sure that people believethere is actual safety, right?
Like we want to make sure that this is
a safe vehicle, but we also want to make surewe are able to communicate
to passengers, to regulatorsand to the public about how this is a safe vehicle.
And so we'll be putting out a lot more informationas we get closer to our entry into service, specifically
(15:48):
about that design technologyand how we have the ultra dynamic built in
not just from batteries,but with the engines, with all of our avionics as well.
And we're using, you know, think seriously about safety.
We're using existing partnerswho have, you know, these certification and aviation experience
and know what it takes to build this technologyso that it is safe for the skies.
Right.
(16:08):
We all know that if you had a battery issue in your electric car,right, you pull over to the side of the road.
We understand that that's not how it works in the sky.
And we want to make sure that we've got redundant technology,that there are no safety issues that come up on our aircraft.
(Dave Mulholland)So one of the
challenges with batteries is the charge time, right?
That's often discussed, you know,so what is the charging time for a loading vehicle to turn?
(16:33):
So, for example, you land in Orlando,you want to turn it around and do a flight over to Tampa.
How long is it going to take us to get that charge?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, so we are currently at a point where we
we are have share that we can recharge 80%
in 15 minutes and 100% in 30 minutes.
And you know, I know and I've talked to our engineers, you know,
(16:53):
they are always working to reduce that time
but also understanding that, you know,
turning an aircraft in 30 minutes is also a pretty high feateven if you didn't have charge.
Right.
So there is a bunch of operational things that have to be in playas well to make sure we can turn the aircraft quickly
and just think about any large aircraft you get on.
You know how long it waits, even think about how longyour uber Lyft waits for you sometimes when they show up.
(17:16):
But yes, from a charging perspective, it's 15 minutes
to get to 80% and 30 minutes to get to 100%.
So we think that that allows us to operate at that high frequency
that we would need to to make this really economically a success.
Is there
is there like an ideal optimum speed that you're traveling atfor that to get the maximum life out of a battery?
(17:37):
And then the second question is how far can these vehicles go?
Yeah.
So the vehicles themselves can travel up 175 miles an hour
and we have about one up to 150, 135 mile range.
And that's with the reserves that the FAA would require,that we would require
from a safety perspectiveto make sure that if there is an issue, we need to go around
or we couldn't land at the intended verdict port,we're able to go to an alternative or to court.
(18:00):
Again, we want to make sure we're adhering to the great safetystandards that already exist for aircraft.
You know, the FAA and the also we're also being certified,
you know, have really strict standardsfor aircraft safety to make sure that we can get
to where we need to get to.
But 150 up to 150 is the current rangebased off of the current battery technology
and the aircraft that we are looking to bring to Florida.
(18:24):
(Dave Mulholland)So so you brought up FAA, right?
And it's one of those that there's a lot of regulationsand restrictions
with FAA getting involved on anything in the sky.
And there's a lot, a lot going on in the sky these days.
So how is FAA going to manage the battles?
And then you know, the flight patterns for these vehicles?
(18:46):
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think to kind of start to put that framework out,
you know, when we think about the FAA
and even in Europe, the ACA,what the regulatory role is that they're all playing.
Right. You know, first and foremost is safety.
And so they're looking at you know, reallythink of it as three buckets, right?
The first is the aircraft itself, right?
(19:06):
And so there are type two certifying the aircraft,
which is really looking to make sure that the aircraft itself
with that, they actually also certify the organizationas a safe organization.
But, you know,think about the aircraft is kind of that one piece.
They're also going to, you know, look at and reviewfrom an FAA perspective all of the vertical force, right.
To make sure they're safe to operate out of.
(19:27):
And then the entity that is operatingthe vehicle also have these certified by the FAA.
Right.
So there's kind of three areas that doesn't talk about eventhe pilots that obviously have to go through a training program.
But, you know, kind of those three areas,then when you get into the sky,
the good news is we are able to operatejust like any kind of general aviation aircraft.
(19:48):
And so that's where we'll be flying, how we'll be flying, right?
So on on launch, we'll be using visual flight rules
and following all the FAA procedures that exist to date.
And, you know, we believe just as,you know, any any of our competitors I know
do and everyone out there in the industry believes,you know, the FAA will progress.
Right. We're looking at this kind of crawl,walk, run approach. Right?
So, you know, we talked about, you know, 100plus aircraft that we want to have fully in the Florida network.
(20:13):
You know, while a hundred sounds like, you know, a lot
when you give the amount of aircraft,they're up in the sky probably right now in Florida.
It's not a substantial increase.
And, you know,we believe that we can operate within the existing rules,
you know, making sure that the towers that we're going
we're entering into any of their airspace
or even going near their airspace,they all have a great awareness of how we're operating.
(20:34):
And the nice thing about, you know, the folksthat will be operating the aircraft is going to be predictable.
Right.
Today, a pilot goes up and maybe they're doing a flight schoolor they're going on a leisure trip.
Either, you know, their course is going to be different.
Right.
It's a net new somethingthat's out there that is wasn't the same as it was yesterday.
If we're flying Orlando to Tampa or flying Orlando to Tampa,you know, pretty much the same route every day.
(20:56):
You know, everyone in the sky and those on the groundare going to be very aware of of of how we're operating.
And so that makes us way more predictablethan, you know, a typical airport would be.
But that's essentially how we'll be operating on day one.
(Dave Mulholland)The generally
aviation you reference, and you referred to a couple of timesthe use of a pilot.
You know, I'm going to go towards the next gen on this.
(21:17):
Do you see a time when these are fully autonomous?
And if so, maybe about proximity?
When do you see that happening?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I don't know that I could even begin to guess.
I think, you know, I'm a futurist or if I if I had picked
when we'd have autonomous vehicles,that that time is already probably passed.
But, you know, I think for,
you know, autonomy in the sky is, you know, has its challenges.
(21:40):
I think what we'll see first
and what what our company has shared, you know,we would be looking towards well before any autonomy in the sky.
This is remote piloting right
and when you think about what that does, right,it does two things.
One, it opens up another seat, right?
So we're talking about the economics of how this work.
It opens up another seat.
And two, it also allows for, you know, better controlover all the aircraft that are out there.
And, you know, having a pilot in our aircraft,which is what we're going to have on day one.
(22:03):
And, you know, as we build it out our network into Florida,
you know, that gives a lot of comfort,not just the FAA, but to our passengers, right.
To the community and to the public that we are going to havea commercially a commercial pilot in these aircraft flying
and and they're just, you know, other than being electricand that they take off
vertically, they can operate just like every other aircraftthat's in the sky.
That level of comfort is needed to get people into the jets,get the FAA to approve the jets.
(22:28):
But but long term, yeah. You know, I think remotely piloted.
And then sometime in the future,I'm sure there'll be a time in the skies.
But, you know,I think that there's a lot to do before we get there.
(Dave Mulholland)Matt, I sincerely appreciate your insight on Liliums eVTOL.
It's definitely a game changing activity.
And I can't wait to see it in practice.
And thank you to the listeners tuning in to VHB Viewpoints today.
(22:51):
My conversation with Matt is not over.
We'll be digging into the complexities of vertiportsand the passenger experience for advanced
air mobility travel in a future Viewpoints episode with Matt.
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