July 22, 2022 • 22 mins
Host Dave Mulholland, VHB Chief Technology Officer, is joined by Lilium’s Senior Manager of Public Policy Matt Broffman for the second half of a conversation in November 2021 about the first eVTOL (electric vertical takeoff and landing jet). In Episode 2, Matt and Dave dig into the complexities of the vertiport and the passenger experience. How the jet and its vertiports will be incorporated and utilized in our community is the subject of a new partnership between the City of Orlando, VHB and NASA.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
(Mike Carragher)Viewpoints is VHB’s thought leadership platform,
where we share insights on critical issuesand emerging technologies in the AEC industry.
I’m Mike Carragher, President and CEO of VHB.
I’m excited to introduce VHB’sthought leaders and our client and partner
podcast participants—all future-focused thinkerswho want to reimagine the built environment.
(00:25):
I hope you’ll tune in often and leave inspired!
(Dave Mulholland)Thanks, Mike.
This is Dave Mulholland, VHB's Chief technology Officer
and I’m your host for Viewpoints podcast episode two: The future of advanced (00:31):
undefined
air mobility with Lilium- vertiportsand the passenger experience.
Today I’m joined by Lilium senior manager of public
policy Matt Brofmanfor the second half of our conversation about Orlando’s
very first EVTOL an electric vertical takeoff and landing jet.
Matt and I discussed the intricacies of the vehiclein episode one,
(00:55):
and today we're going to dig into the complexitiesof the vertiport and the passenger experience.
Moving on to the
the landing spot, the vertiports, as we refer to them,
the vehicles need to take off and land somewhereright from one location.
To another location.
Wanted to spend some timetalking about the vertiports or the, you know,
(01:16):
the helipads as they used to be called in some convergence,if you will,
What are some of the major components of a vertiport?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think the way to think about a vertiport
right is it's an airport but instead of a runway, we have
what we you know, what the industry calls a FATOwhich is the final area of takeoff and landing.
But really that H you see painted on the ground. Right.
(01:36):
We have one of those instead of a runwaybut otherwise it's a smaller airport.
And by that, I mean, you know, the jets will take out
land on those FATOs on that on those those marked FATOs
and then they will taxi rightjust as you would taxi at an airport into a gate.
At that gate is where the passengers would deplane,where we would be doing our charging,
(01:57):
where we would turn the aircraft for the next passengersthat would be getting on.
And then we would taxi back out to a FATO to take off. Right.
And so you can really begin to think of these as many airportas mini airports.
The beauty, though, is, you know,the runway is the largest part of an airport.
And, you know, yes, you can scale by making your youryou know, you're adding more gates.
(02:18):
But as we know, in any airport,there's a limiting factor before you need another runway.
So, you know, we we view, you know, our kind
of hub vertical as we're callingand the one that we've announced.
And we also recently announced the one in Palm Beach.
You know, those having,you know, about around seven dates, really eight gates,
one that will be used for maintenance of seven active gates and,you know, hopefully
(02:41):
two venues depending on what we can fit in.
And when you think about what that looks like,
you know, size wise, that means we can fit these on,you know, some around a half an acre.
Right.
And so that begins to be compellingwhere we could start enacting rooftops of parking garages
or underutilized landthat we might have near an urban environment.
And then I think, you know,there are going to be all sorts of versions of these as they go.
(03:02):
Right.
Because at the end of the day, what you really needis to make sure you've got that veto and then potentially
the charging infrastructurethat you would need to to charge and recharge the rest of.
It's all about the passenger experience, right?
There'll be a terminal building where passengers will arrive.
They'll wait, you know, they'll,
you know, use the facilitiesif they need to and wait for their their vehicle or their jet
to to arrive and to board that jet
(03:25):
so that, you know,they're really functioning like those those like a mini airport.
But again, I think we'll see different versions of themas as we kind of grow and expand our network across Florida.
(Dave Mulholland)So, Matt, you referred to seven gates within a vertiport,
and that's a lot of turnover for vehicles and coordination.
You know, the question would behow many vertiports do you see potentially
(03:48):
needed within a mid-sized city like Orlandothat actually has about 300 population?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think that number is gonna grow. Right.
The nice part about regional air mobility for me,
municipal, you know, city, county perspective is,
you know, because we are doing this regionally,our initial network
will most likely have one,maybe two or three depending on the city.
(04:09):
But really one in each city is what is needed.
And so the ability to find an ideal location in one city
is a lot easierthan trying to find 12 ideal locations in one city.
And so we think, you know,
we found one location at Lake Nona in Palm Beach.
We announced, like I said, at the Palm Beach Airport.
And so we'll be doing some strategic announcementsof where our locations are at, you know, over the next year
(04:32):
or so in our with our partnersthat are building out the infrastructure.
And, you know, I think long term, anywherethat is a demand center
is you and I have talked about, you know, these demandswhere people where do people want to go Right.
That's where vertiport could be useful. Right.
Then there's the idea of, is this the right time?Is there location?
You know, we'll talk about some limiting factors.
But, you know, that's really the way that we can think aboutwhere, you know, from a city perspective,
(04:55):
where is an ideal location is where people want to goor where a lot of people are leaving from.
Right. Ideally, both.
And so you can begin in any city and realizethere's more than one location that is ideal in any city.
But the good news is we think you can start with,
you know, one location in the cityand really draw in a nice sized catchment area from that.
(Dave Mulholland)So I did want part of this to be an educational part.
(05:19):
These are not going to pop up in everybody's backyard.
You know, in terms of conversation, you and I have had that
what are some of the regulations that you see to get avertedwere approved
and who are the approving agencies on those?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, so not only will these not be popping up in your backyard, right,
unless you you're live in a hotel or, you know, a shopping mall,
(05:43):
you know, these are not first of all, individual aircraft,I think, as we've talked about.
And so, you know, they're going to be,you know, these mini airports that will be approved
by a variety of different agencies.
So inside, you know, in the state of
Florida.
Right.
If you think about we've talked about the FAAwho has the approval process because literally
the application that is filed for you've heard ofit is the same application file for an airport, right?
(06:06):
It is an airport application.
And so the FAA is going to ensure that it is safe safely.
It can operate safely, that there are no airspace issues
tied to operating out of that location.
The state of Floridaalso has a permit registration process for airports
and then the city or county that you're in has landuse jurisdiction.
Right. To make sure that these are in the right locations.
(06:29):
And so, you know,I think that's where a lot of work will happen over
the next five to ten years is thinking aboutwhere are the right locations.
But we've you know, we will fall in or oftentimeslooking at where, you know,
how airports are located or able to be located.
But, you know, the reality is the reason we restrictedwhere heliports could go is the noise issue.
Right.
And so, you know, I like to think, you know, we are somewhere
(06:53):
getting closerto the way that we would think about a a drive through speaker.
Right.
So in a lot of cities, if you want to put a drive throughin, you have to get a conditional use permit
but that's a noise issue. Right.
And so if we can eliminate this noise issue, right, we think that
this can be a cleaner process,an easier process with cities and counties.
It doesn't require that same threshold, but still would allowcities and counties to decide what what zoning districts do.
(07:17):
They want to see this.
And just as you can't open up a restaurant in your backyard,in most cities you know,
we don't anticipate that any city would want a vertiportlto be put in someone's backyard.
Right.
So I think we're very focused on these demand centers,which tend to be in downtowns
or in high activity centers, which are, you know, prime for this.
And really where there's even if there was noise,the noise impact would not be hurt, anything around it.
(07:43):
And so we're working with our other cities across Floridato make sure we find the proper locations.
(Dave Mulholland)You've been leading the charge
to actually get one of the first vertiports in the countryapproved.
How long have you guys been at it?
And, you know, how long does it traditionally taketo get through the process to get a certain port approved?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think I don't know that I can even put a time on it,
(08:05):
because really the process for Liliumhas started,you know, years ago when the you know,
the folks who wrote Lilium even before me, you know,began initial conversations with all those regulatory partners.
Right.
I think what should not be lost anyway is is this is a you know,
we are working with regulators to ensure everyone's
(08:27):
level of comfort and that work has been ongoing now for years.
Right. So that's when the process really started.
You know, we did file, you know, an application,
you know, for you know, the vertiport approvalsthat we'll need in Orlando.
You know, we're still working with all the different regulators
and hope that we'll have, you know, approvaland maybe one of the first approvals
(08:50):
but, you know, it's hard
to put a timeline on that because, you know, our you know, yes,we want to make sure that this moves fast and quickly
so that we can be up and running operationalin time for entering the service.
But also important is to have a regulatory partnersbe that partners.
Right.
And that's kind of our main focus.
And our philosophy is, you know, this is in ayou know, elbow your way in as much as you can.
(09:11):
Right.
This is a you know, let's, you know, work within the frameworkthat exists and make sure we get everyone comfortable.
And, you know, it's been a really great process to do that, right
at the local level, at the state level and at the federal level.
You know, it's been a really good coordination toto make sure that that all of the,
you know, boxes are checked, I's are dotted and T's are crossedand that this is going to be safe.
(09:31):
Right.
We want to make sure that that not only do we know it's safe,but that the regulators feel comfortable
and confident that it will be safe.
(Dave Mulholland)Yeah, that
coordination that you referred to is is going to be paramountthat actually have the success.
And Iyou know, one of the areas I look and think about is last mile.
You know, you basically get a connection over from Lake Nona
to another vertiport and then basically having the surrounding
(09:55):
transit agencies and or micro transit availableto actually help service that last mile.
Connectivity
is living coordinating with them directly on this
or is that is a to too far in the future?
(Matt Broffman)I think it's a little early for us to, you know, know
the specifics of, you know, exact partners right now.
We do imagine and we know that, you know, the operating partners
(10:16):
and the vertical partners will all have relationshipsto ensure that people get to their final destination.
And that's going to look differentdepending on where we're landing.
Right.
You know, landing at Palm Beach Airport,you know, they'll be able to take advantage
of some of the existing infrastructure therethat will connect people to their last mile.
Landing in lake Nona, right.
Like, Nona has Beep, which is an autonomous shuttlethat operates around like Lake Nona.
(10:38):
You know,we anticipate that, you know, Tavistock and Lake Nona team
are going to work with Beepto make sure that we have the right connectivity
from the Beep shuttles to get people to where they're going,but that there's also other solutions that exist out there.
You know, it's interesting.
There werethere are a lot of folks who spent a lot of time thinking
about what these last mile solutions ought to be,could be and should be.
(11:00):
And I think that's super important.
But I think just as with anything, the way we're going to figurethat out is once we get operating on these first
you know, you've heard reports will understand, you know,
what the passenger appetite is and what they're looking for.
Right.
So we'll have a variety of options to begin with.
And I imagine that those will start to solidify, right?
There's there's a certain location we've looked at where,you know, a golf cart to get people to where
(11:22):
they're actually going to be the best mode because they you know,it's everyone's going to have one of four locations.
You get them in a golf cart and you get them there.
Ideally, long term, it'll be, you know, anotherautonomous shuttle that will be operating to get them there.
But I think it's gonna really depend on location.
Oftentimes, if we're landing in a city, we're going to rely on
the existing public transit exist in the city. Right.
(11:43):
And the existing transportation solutions that are out thereyou know, we've talked
with, you know, in Tampa, they've got the streetcar system.
Right, which they're looking to continually expand.
And that's a great way to get to your final destination.
But then there's existing modes of of the, you know, ridesharing, ride hailing know solutions that are out there.
And so I think all of those are on the table.
And, you know, part of it will be seeing what the passengers wantand what experience
(12:05):
you know, our operators want to provide to those passengers.
(Dave Mulholland)So you get the passengers.
I really wanted to spend some timetalking about the public perception.
You know, this is one of the biggest challenges with the eVTOLs
as they start to come into the market.
As you know, VHB and you refer to VHB is actually
helping the city of Orlando, working with stakeholdersacross the region
to develop this advanced areal mobility plan for passengers.
(12:31):
The passenger experience with a new mode of transportation
is going to be a challengeto get everybody feeling comfortable with it,
but also using this as new mode of transportation to become
sustainable and equitable across the region.
So I wanted to talk about the passenger perceptionand I want to talk about the passenger experience.
Who do you see would be the general core customers
(12:54):
that would be using the eVTOLs?
(Matt Broffman)I think early on, you know, it's going to be leisure and business travelers
that, you know, value their time
the unique selling point here is the speedat which we can move people and connect cities.
And I think, you know, some of that is net new, right?
I think this is like any other revolution in in transportation,
(13:15):
which we really see this as a revolution in transportation.
You know, there's going to be new trips taken because of this.
And, you know, that might be somebody who is going to goto a meeting that they would have, you know, hopped on Zoom for.
But now can, you know, quicklyget to, you know, South Florida or to Tampa from Orlando.
It might be that the it's an attorney that would have,
you know, driven and is billing by the hourand now can actually grill their client less
(13:39):
because they're going to take a little time jetto get to the court hearing.
So there can be a variety of different use casesthat will be out there.
But it's really about valuing that timebecause we will be getting their people there faster.
And so that's really
the target market they're looking at is if people who want to getfrom one city to another and value speed
and then also connecting areas that normally didn't have that,how can I.
(14:01):
Right.
And so the beach that we go to is the beachyou can get to quickly, right.
But if all of a suddenyou could get to just about any beach in Florida quickly,
you'd probably pick all sorts of different beaches.
Nothing against our friend in New Smyrna.
But people have different beaches that they like.
And so I think the same goes for for lots of travel, right.
Travel and transportation.
And where companies locate tends to be about where you can get toand from an access to
(14:23):
and so as we begin to think about a hub in Orlandothat you can connect people all across the state of Florida.
Right.
That might mean something very different in this new work,
remote philosophy that we have for a lot of companies.
Right, where you could have a headquarters in Orlando,but have people spread out all across the state of Florida,
you could, you know, really at the snap of a finger,everybody bring them in
(14:43):
to your corporate headquarters even for a day for just a meeting.
Right.
If you tried to do that today, that's athat's a huge undertaking. Right.
We've all made some of these drives.
You know, where, you know, traffic becomes very unpredictable.
You're spending you know, it ends up being,you know, multiple hours there and back in a car.
That's not a great use of time.
Right.
But, you know, all of a sudden, if we can bring that down
drastically,it really allows people to rethink kind of their center of life.
(15:07):
Right.
And where they will go to dinner,where they go for the weekend will even work.
Right.
I mean, I had, you know, a joke about,you know, our offices for lithium.
You know, we've got, you know, a handful folksand we're spread out all across Florida.
Right. And the joke was like, yeah, well, you know, we may have,
you know, some office in Floridathat is, you know, an official office.
(15:28):
But, you know, when that happens,we all can probably stay where we're living
because we could easily get to the officeusing that little jet every day.
Right.
And I think when you start to thinkabout how this will change the way people move,
I think that is really the market that we're going after.
People that want to connect from cityto city at a really fast pace.
(Dave Mulholland)Recently, we've had a conversation about the
(15:49):
the different modes of transportationso you're talking about the vehicle, the passenger cars.
You talk about the trains.
How do you see this actually shifting over time?
You know, initially once the emerges comes into the market,then long term,
how do you see the mode shiftgoing over to the usage of the low end vehicles?
(16:09):
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think they'll be mode shift.
But I think we also, you know, this is a new as
I was just saying, you know,this is a new type of sort of transportation service.
And so, yes,there'll be people that will shift from one mode to another.
But it's also, again, about, you know, the the
the net new trips, anybody to go from,you know, something on the West Coast
(16:30):
up over and be able to go all the way up the East Coast.
And then we also think the differences is speed.
Right. And so, you know, maybe you take the train every day,
but, you know, when you need to get there quickly,you you take a William jet, right?
So there's going to be different variations of that.
You know, I have that todaywhere sometimes when I go to Miami, I drive and sometimes I fly.
A lot of that has to do with the mood,the time of day, the schedules,
(16:51):
et cetera, the traffic, depending on when I'm going.
And I think the same will be with William Shatner.
People will be making those decisionsand going between modes as well.
So I think there'll be some mode shift that is, you know, broad.
But I think it'll be a lot of people that are going to be makingthese decisions depending on the type of trip are doing.
And again, if they value that time,which we know that people do value their time.
(17:12):
(Dave Mulholland)So so valuing time is important, right?
It's important to me.
You know, how how much do you estimate
that this is going to cost to take the William jet?
I know you guys are still the early performers on this,but how much is it going to cost to take one of these vehicles?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
So what we shared is an average of $2.25 a mile.
And so we think that that's a pretty compelling propositionfor most folks.
(17:34):
When you start to kind of put that in perspective,you know, that's, you know,
$150 I think around somewhere around there for Orlando to Tampa.
And that becomes a compelling,
you know, argument again when you factor in that time
savings, depending on the trip in the distanceand where your final destination is.
And so, you know, it's really $0.25.
Again, it is an average rate.
(17:55):
There'll be some flights or less,some flights will be more and as we grow
and build the economics of scale,we believe that that will we know that will go down.
Vertical operations will be streamlined over time. Right.
We're going to learn a lot on these first four to portsand hopefully be able to bring down those costs drastically,
you know, which will result in a lower costper mile for our passengers.
I like to think of it just like any other form of transportationor technology for that matter.
(18:18):
It starts out at one price, but, you know,ten, 20, 30 years later, it's way less expensive, right?
Whether that was air travelor that's your iPhone or flat screen TVs.
Right. The price will go down.
And as that price goes down,that's really where it begins really shift
the way that people thinkand move across the country, across the state of Florida.
(Dave Mulholland)And think of it, $2.25 a mile.
(18:39):
I mean, going. And you refer to Orlando, to Tampa.
I mean, splitting it with fine people, actually,it becomes more palatable in terms of the cost per person.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
And it is you know, that's the cost per mile per person.
Right. The $2.45. Correct.
(Matt Broffman)So you refer to the connections and we're actually staying on that theme between Orlando and Tampa.
Just for the, for the, the audience.
(19:02):
This is actually one of the major interstatesconnecting two major cities
and so citizens in the state of Florida, accidents happen a lot.
And that's why that time goes up. Right.
In terms of the it can take 2 hourssometimes that normally take a trip for an hour and 15 minutes.
Public perception wise, you know,
how safe are these vehicles versusthe other modes that we've talked about the passenger cars.
(19:26):
(Matt Broffman)You know we believe and we in our goal right from a safety perspectives
to be as safe as commercial aircraft that are out there today
and that is what we are we are certifying ourself to
and to the safety record that we will haveyou know long term will demonstrate that.
So it's hard to kind of give,you know, data points on on answer that.
I think there's we understand, right?
(19:47):
Like just as we've talked about, you're not talked about evenwith autonomous vehicles and other things.
Right. It's not about the data. Right.
We will have the data.
We will have the FAA approvedthat the level of safety of our vehicle.
But we know that people want to see more. Right.
They want to understand why get used to it.
And so it's going to take time right?
It's going to take people flying on the on the jetsto gain that level of comfort.
(20:09):
It's going to take us working with the communityto make people aware of this.
And I think once people see it
that will also change.
Right.
I think the the eye opening moment for lots of people isthis isn't a tiny, you know, drone looking aircraft.
Right?
This is a you know, a small commercial jet. Right.
It's got a 50 foot wingspan. Right.
This is a decent size vehicle that is safe.
It is safe to operate and safe to fly.
(20:30):
And I think once people see it, once they hear it, oncethey see it fly, I think there's going to be a really turning
point for for people that not only makes this real,but makes them understand it is real and it is safe.
(Dave Mulholland)So, Matt,
you know, first of all,I want to thank William and I want to thank you personally for
for coming on and talking about the vehicles, talking
about the reports and talking about the public perception.
(20:52):
It's certainly great to talk to you todayand understand the vision of where you're going.
I can't wait for the public to see this really come into actionand come into reality.
It's inevitable it is coming.
But before we go, I have one more question.
Where are you going to take your first trip?
Where is it going to go?
(21:13):
(Matt Broffman)You know, it's funny.
Most likely it will be a work trip, right?
I joke. You know, the beauty.
What I love about my job is I get to work with all sortsof cities and counties all across the state of Florida.
The downside is I am every day validating the challenge
of driving and commuting across the state of Florida.
And so I imagine that one of my first trips in the Liliumjet will be to go visit our office in Miami
(21:37):
or to meet with the city somewhere across across Florida.
(Dave Mulholland)Actually think in the connection between our Orlando office and our Tampa office.
And if you ever get the connection up to Atlanta,that would even be better for me personally.
As much as I travel up to and from to and from Atlanta.
(Matt Broffman)We think we'll see Lilium jets all across the country eventually.
Right.
So I'm sure we'll be looking at it, at some pointThat's what we're hoping, sir.
(21:57):
(Dave Mulholland)Matt, I can't wait to take my first trip on the Lilium jet.
Thank you so much for joining us today and letting our Viewpointslisteners know more about the future of advanced air mobility.
It's exciting to see it start right here in Florida.
And it's really going to be a game changer for transportationin connecting communities across the globe.
(Matt Broffman and Matt Broffman)Thanks for having me, Dave. I appreciate you being here. Thanks.
(Mike Carragher)Viewpoints is VHB’s thought leadership platform,
where we share insights on critical issuesand emerging technologies in the AEC industry.
I’m Mike Carragher, President and CEO of VHB.
I’m excited to introduce VHB’sthought leaders and our client and partner
podcast participants—all future-focused thinkerswho want to reimagine the built environment.
(00:25):
I hope you’ll tune in often and leave inspired!
(Dave Mulholland)Thanks, Mike.
This is Dave Mulholland, VHB's Chief technology Officer
and I’m your host for Viewpoints podcast episode two: The future of advanced (00:31):
undefined
air mobility with Lilium- vertiportsand the passenger experience.
Today I’m joined by Lilium senior manager of public
policy Matt Brofmanfor the second half of our conversation about Orlando’s
very first EVTOL an electric vertical takeoff and landing jet.
Matt and I discussed the intricacies of the vehiclein episode one,
(00:55):
and today we're going to dig into the complexitiesof the vertiport and the passenger experience.
Moving on to the
the landing spot, the vertiports, as we refer to them,
the vehicles need to take off and land somewhereright from one location.
To another location.
Wanted to spend some timetalking about the vertiports or the, you know,
(01:16):
the helipads as they used to be called in some convergence,if you will,
What are some of the major components of a vertiport?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think the way to think about a vertiport
right is it's an airport but instead of a runway, we have
what we you know, what the industry calls a FATOwhich is the final area of takeoff and landing.
But really that H you see painted on the ground. Right.
(01:36):
We have one of those instead of a runwaybut otherwise it's a smaller airport.
And by that, I mean, you know, the jets will take out
land on those FATOs on that on those those marked FATOs
and then they will taxi rightjust as you would taxi at an airport into a gate.
At that gate is where the passengers would deplane,where we would be doing our charging,
(01:57):
where we would turn the aircraft for the next passengersthat would be getting on.
And then we would taxi back out to a FATO to take off. Right.
And so you can really begin to think of these as many airportas mini airports.
The beauty, though, is, you know,the runway is the largest part of an airport.
And, you know, yes, you can scale by making your youryou know, you're adding more gates.
(02:18):
But as we know, in any airport,there's a limiting factor before you need another runway.
So, you know, we we view, you know, our kind
of hub vertical as we're callingand the one that we've announced.
And we also recently announced the one in Palm Beach.
You know, those having,you know, about around seven dates, really eight gates,
one that will be used for maintenance of seven active gates and,you know, hopefully
(02:41):
two venues depending on what we can fit in.
And when you think about what that looks like,
you know, size wise, that means we can fit these on,you know, some around a half an acre.
Right.
And so that begins to be compellingwhere we could start enacting rooftops of parking garages
or underutilized landthat we might have near an urban environment.
And then I think, you know,there are going to be all sorts of versions of these as they go.
(03:02):
Right.
Because at the end of the day, what you really needis to make sure you've got that veto and then potentially
the charging infrastructurethat you would need to to charge and recharge the rest of.
It's all about the passenger experience, right?
There'll be a terminal building where passengers will arrive.
They'll wait, you know, they'll,
you know, use the facilitiesif they need to and wait for their their vehicle or their jet
to to arrive and to board that jet
(03:25):
so that, you know,they're really functioning like those those like a mini airport.
But again, I think we'll see different versions of themas as we kind of grow and expand our network across Florida.
(Dave Mulholland)So, Matt, you referred to seven gates within a vertiport,
and that's a lot of turnover for vehicles and coordination.
You know, the question would behow many vertiports do you see potentially
(03:48):
needed within a mid-sized city like Orlandothat actually has about 300 population?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think that number is gonna grow. Right.
The nice part about regional air mobility for me,
municipal, you know, city, county perspective is,
you know, because we are doing this regionally,our initial network
will most likely have one,maybe two or three depending on the city.
(04:09):
But really one in each city is what is needed.
And so the ability to find an ideal location in one city
is a lot easierthan trying to find 12 ideal locations in one city.
And so we think, you know,
we found one location at Lake Nona in Palm Beach.
We announced, like I said, at the Palm Beach Airport.
And so we'll be doing some strategic announcementsof where our locations are at, you know, over the next year
(04:32):
or so in our with our partnersthat are building out the infrastructure.
And, you know, I think long term, anywherethat is a demand center
is you and I have talked about, you know, these demandswhere people where do people want to go Right.
That's where vertiport could be useful. Right.
Then there's the idea of, is this the right time?Is there location?
You know, we'll talk about some limiting factors.
But, you know, that's really the way that we can think aboutwhere, you know, from a city perspective,
(04:55):
where is an ideal location is where people want to goor where a lot of people are leaving from.
Right. Ideally, both.
And so you can begin in any city and realizethere's more than one location that is ideal in any city.
But the good news is we think you can start with,
you know, one location in the cityand really draw in a nice sized catchment area from that.
(Dave Mulholland)So I did want part of this to be an educational part.
(05:19):
These are not going to pop up in everybody's backyard.
You know, in terms of conversation, you and I have had that
what are some of the regulations that you see to get avertedwere approved
and who are the approving agencies on those?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, so not only will these not be popping up in your backyard, right,
unless you you're live in a hotel or, you know, a shopping mall,
(05:43):
you know, these are not first of all, individual aircraft,I think, as we've talked about.
And so, you know, they're going to be,you know, these mini airports that will be approved
by a variety of different agencies.
So inside, you know, in the state of
Florida.
Right.
If you think about we've talked about the FAAwho has the approval process because literally
the application that is filed for you've heard ofit is the same application file for an airport, right?
(06:06):
It is an airport application.
And so the FAA is going to ensure that it is safe safely.
It can operate safely, that there are no airspace issues
tied to operating out of that location.
The state of Floridaalso has a permit registration process for airports
and then the city or county that you're in has landuse jurisdiction.
Right. To make sure that these are in the right locations.
(06:29):
And so, you know,I think that's where a lot of work will happen over
the next five to ten years is thinking aboutwhere are the right locations.
But we've you know, we will fall in or oftentimeslooking at where, you know,
how airports are located or able to be located.
But, you know, the reality is the reason we restrictedwhere heliports could go is the noise issue.
Right.
And so, you know, I like to think, you know, we are somewhere
(06:53):
getting closerto the way that we would think about a a drive through speaker.
Right.
So in a lot of cities, if you want to put a drive throughin, you have to get a conditional use permit
but that's a noise issue. Right.
And so if we can eliminate this noise issue, right, we think that
this can be a cleaner process,an easier process with cities and counties.
It doesn't require that same threshold, but still would allowcities and counties to decide what what zoning districts do.
(07:17):
They want to see this.
And just as you can't open up a restaurant in your backyard,in most cities you know,
we don't anticipate that any city would want a vertiportlto be put in someone's backyard.
Right.
So I think we're very focused on these demand centers,which tend to be in downtowns
or in high activity centers, which are, you know, prime for this.
And really where there's even if there was noise,the noise impact would not be hurt, anything around it.
(07:43):
And so we're working with our other cities across Floridato make sure we find the proper locations.
(Dave Mulholland)You've been leading the charge
to actually get one of the first vertiports in the countryapproved.
How long have you guys been at it?
And, you know, how long does it traditionally taketo get through the process to get a certain port approved?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think I don't know that I can even put a time on it,
(08:05):
because really the process for Liliumhas started,you know, years ago when the you know,
the folks who wrote Lilium even before me, you know,began initial conversations with all those regulatory partners.
Right.
I think what should not be lost anyway is is this is a you know,
we are working with regulators to ensure everyone's
(08:27):
level of comfort and that work has been ongoing now for years.
Right. So that's when the process really started.
You know, we did file, you know, an application,
you know, for you know, the vertiport approvalsthat we'll need in Orlando.
You know, we're still working with all the different regulators
and hope that we'll have, you know, approvaland maybe one of the first approvals
(08:50):
but, you know, it's hard
to put a timeline on that because, you know, our you know, yes,we want to make sure that this moves fast and quickly
so that we can be up and running operationalin time for entering the service.
But also important is to have a regulatory partnersbe that partners.
Right.
And that's kind of our main focus.
And our philosophy is, you know, this is in ayou know, elbow your way in as much as you can.
(09:11):
Right.
This is a you know, let's, you know, work within the frameworkthat exists and make sure we get everyone comfortable.
And, you know, it's been a really great process to do that, right
at the local level, at the state level and at the federal level.
You know, it's been a really good coordination toto make sure that that all of the,
you know, boxes are checked, I's are dotted and T's are crossedand that this is going to be safe.
(09:31):
Right.
We want to make sure that that not only do we know it's safe,but that the regulators feel comfortable
and confident that it will be safe.
(Dave Mulholland)Yeah, that
coordination that you referred to is is going to be paramountthat actually have the success.
And Iyou know, one of the areas I look and think about is last mile.
You know, you basically get a connection over from Lake Nona
to another vertiport and then basically having the surrounding
(09:55):
transit agencies and or micro transit availableto actually help service that last mile.
Connectivity
is living coordinating with them directly on this
or is that is a to too far in the future?
(Matt Broffman)I think it's a little early for us to, you know, know
the specifics of, you know, exact partners right now.
We do imagine and we know that, you know, the operating partners
(10:16):
and the vertical partners will all have relationshipsto ensure that people get to their final destination.
And that's going to look differentdepending on where we're landing.
Right.
You know, landing at Palm Beach Airport,you know, they'll be able to take advantage
of some of the existing infrastructure therethat will connect people to their last mile.
Landing in lake Nona, right.
Like, Nona has Beep, which is an autonomous shuttlethat operates around like Lake Nona.
(10:38):
You know,we anticipate that, you know, Tavistock and Lake Nona team
are going to work with Beepto make sure that we have the right connectivity
from the Beep shuttles to get people to where they're going,but that there's also other solutions that exist out there.
You know, it's interesting.
There werethere are a lot of folks who spent a lot of time thinking
about what these last mile solutions ought to be,could be and should be.
(11:00):
And I think that's super important.
But I think just as with anything, the way we're going to figurethat out is once we get operating on these first
you know, you've heard reports will understand, you know,
what the passenger appetite is and what they're looking for.
Right.
So we'll have a variety of options to begin with.
And I imagine that those will start to solidify, right?
There's there's a certain location we've looked at where,you know, a golf cart to get people to where
(11:22):
they're actually going to be the best mode because they you know,it's everyone's going to have one of four locations.
You get them in a golf cart and you get them there.
Ideally, long term, it'll be, you know, anotherautonomous shuttle that will be operating to get them there.
But I think it's gonna really depend on location.
Oftentimes, if we're landing in a city, we're going to rely on
the existing public transit exist in the city. Right.
(11:43):
And the existing transportation solutions that are out thereyou know, we've talked
with, you know, in Tampa, they've got the streetcar system.
Right, which they're looking to continually expand.
And that's a great way to get to your final destination.
But then there's existing modes of of the, you know, ridesharing, ride hailing know solutions that are out there.
And so I think all of those are on the table.
And, you know, part of it will be seeing what the passengers wantand what experience
(12:05):
you know, our operators want to provide to those passengers.
(Dave Mulholland)So you get the passengers.
I really wanted to spend some timetalking about the public perception.
You know, this is one of the biggest challenges with the eVTOLs
as they start to come into the market.
As you know, VHB and you refer to VHB is actually
helping the city of Orlando, working with stakeholdersacross the region
to develop this advanced areal mobility plan for passengers.
(12:31):
The passenger experience with a new mode of transportation
is going to be a challengeto get everybody feeling comfortable with it,
but also using this as new mode of transportation to become
sustainable and equitable across the region.
So I wanted to talk about the passenger perceptionand I want to talk about the passenger experience.
Who do you see would be the general core customers
(12:54):
that would be using the eVTOLs?
(Matt Broffman)I think early on, you know, it's going to be leisure and business travelers
that, you know, value their time
the unique selling point here is the speedat which we can move people and connect cities.
And I think, you know, some of that is net new, right?
I think this is like any other revolution in in transportation,
(13:15):
which we really see this as a revolution in transportation.
You know, there's going to be new trips taken because of this.
And, you know, that might be somebody who is going to goto a meeting that they would have, you know, hopped on Zoom for.
But now can, you know, quicklyget to, you know, South Florida or to Tampa from Orlando.
It might be that the it's an attorney that would have,
you know, driven and is billing by the hourand now can actually grill their client less
(13:39):
because they're going to take a little time jetto get to the court hearing.
So there can be a variety of different use casesthat will be out there.
But it's really about valuing that timebecause we will be getting their people there faster.
And so that's really
the target market they're looking at is if people who want to getfrom one city to another and value speed
and then also connecting areas that normally didn't have that,how can I.
(14:01):
Right.
And so the beach that we go to is the beachyou can get to quickly, right.
But if all of a suddenyou could get to just about any beach in Florida quickly,
you'd probably pick all sorts of different beaches.
Nothing against our friend in New Smyrna.
But people have different beaches that they like.
And so I think the same goes for for lots of travel, right.
Travel and transportation.
And where companies locate tends to be about where you can get toand from an access to
(14:23):
and so as we begin to think about a hub in Orlandothat you can connect people all across the state of Florida.
Right.
That might mean something very different in this new work,
remote philosophy that we have for a lot of companies.
Right, where you could have a headquarters in Orlando,but have people spread out all across the state of Florida,
you could, you know, really at the snap of a finger,everybody bring them in
(14:43):
to your corporate headquarters even for a day for just a meeting.
Right.
If you tried to do that today, that's athat's a huge undertaking. Right.
We've all made some of these drives.
You know, where, you know, traffic becomes very unpredictable.
You're spending you know, it ends up being,you know, multiple hours there and back in a car.
That's not a great use of time.
Right.
But, you know, all of a sudden, if we can bring that down
drastically,it really allows people to rethink kind of their center of life.
(15:07):
Right.
And where they will go to dinner,where they go for the weekend will even work.
Right.
I mean, I had, you know, a joke about,you know, our offices for lithium.
You know, we've got, you know, a handful folksand we're spread out all across Florida.
Right. And the joke was like, yeah, well, you know, we may have,
you know, some office in Floridathat is, you know, an official office.
(15:28):
But, you know, when that happens,we all can probably stay where we're living
because we could easily get to the officeusing that little jet every day.
Right.
And I think when you start to thinkabout how this will change the way people move,
I think that is really the market that we're going after.
People that want to connect from cityto city at a really fast pace.
(Dave Mulholland)Recently, we've had a conversation about the
(15:49):
the different modes of transportationso you're talking about the vehicle, the passenger cars.
You talk about the trains.
How do you see this actually shifting over time?
You know, initially once the emerges comes into the market,then long term,
how do you see the mode shiftgoing over to the usage of the low end vehicles?
(16:09):
(Matt Broffman)Yeah, I think they'll be mode shift.
But I think we also, you know, this is a new as
I was just saying, you know,this is a new type of sort of transportation service.
And so, yes,there'll be people that will shift from one mode to another.
But it's also, again, about, you know, the the
the net new trips, anybody to go from,you know, something on the West Coast
(16:30):
up over and be able to go all the way up the East Coast.
And then we also think the differences is speed.
Right. And so, you know, maybe you take the train every day,
but, you know, when you need to get there quickly,you you take a William jet, right?
So there's going to be different variations of that.
You know, I have that todaywhere sometimes when I go to Miami, I drive and sometimes I fly.
A lot of that has to do with the mood,the time of day, the schedules,
(16:51):
et cetera, the traffic, depending on when I'm going.
And I think the same will be with William Shatner.
People will be making those decisionsand going between modes as well.
So I think there'll be some mode shift that is, you know, broad.
But I think it'll be a lot of people that are going to be makingthese decisions depending on the type of trip are doing.
And again, if they value that time,which we know that people do value their time.
(17:12):
(Dave Mulholland)So so valuing time is important, right?
It's important to me.
You know, how how much do you estimate
that this is going to cost to take the William jet?
I know you guys are still the early performers on this,but how much is it going to cost to take one of these vehicles?
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
So what we shared is an average of $2.25 a mile.
And so we think that that's a pretty compelling propositionfor most folks.
(17:34):
When you start to kind of put that in perspective,you know, that's, you know,
$150 I think around somewhere around there for Orlando to Tampa.
And that becomes a compelling,
you know, argument again when you factor in that time
savings, depending on the trip in the distanceand where your final destination is.
And so, you know, it's really $0.25.
Again, it is an average rate.
(17:55):
There'll be some flights or less,some flights will be more and as we grow
and build the economics of scale,we believe that that will we know that will go down.
Vertical operations will be streamlined over time. Right.
We're going to learn a lot on these first four to portsand hopefully be able to bring down those costs drastically,
you know, which will result in a lower costper mile for our passengers.
I like to think of it just like any other form of transportationor technology for that matter.
(18:18):
It starts out at one price, but, you know,ten, 20, 30 years later, it's way less expensive, right?
Whether that was air travelor that's your iPhone or flat screen TVs.
Right. The price will go down.
And as that price goes down,that's really where it begins really shift
the way that people thinkand move across the country, across the state of Florida.
(Dave Mulholland)And think of it, $2.25 a mile.
(18:39):
I mean, going. And you refer to Orlando, to Tampa.
I mean, splitting it with fine people, actually,it becomes more palatable in terms of the cost per person.
(Matt Broffman)Yeah.
And it is you know, that's the cost per mile per person.
Right. The $2.45. Correct.
(Matt Broffman)So you refer to the connections and we're actually staying on that theme between Orlando and Tampa.
Just for the, for the, the audience.
(19:02):
This is actually one of the major interstatesconnecting two major cities
and so citizens in the state of Florida, accidents happen a lot.
And that's why that time goes up. Right.
In terms of the it can take 2 hourssometimes that normally take a trip for an hour and 15 minutes.
Public perception wise, you know,
how safe are these vehicles versusthe other modes that we've talked about the passenger cars.
(19:26):
(Matt Broffman)You know we believe and we in our goal right from a safety perspectives
to be as safe as commercial aircraft that are out there today
and that is what we are we are certifying ourself to
and to the safety record that we will haveyou know long term will demonstrate that.
So it's hard to kind of give,you know, data points on on answer that.
I think there's we understand, right?
(19:47):
Like just as we've talked about, you're not talked about evenwith autonomous vehicles and other things.
Right. It's not about the data. Right.
We will have the data.
We will have the FAA approvedthat the level of safety of our vehicle.
But we know that people want to see more. Right.
They want to understand why get used to it.
And so it's going to take time right?
It's going to take people flying on the on the jetsto gain that level of comfort.
(20:09):
It's going to take us working with the communityto make people aware of this.
And I think once people see it
that will also change.
Right.
I think the the eye opening moment for lots of people isthis isn't a tiny, you know, drone looking aircraft.
Right?
This is a you know, a small commercial jet. Right.
It's got a 50 foot wingspan. Right.
This is a decent size vehicle that is safe.
It is safe to operate and safe to fly.
(20:30):
And I think once people see it, once they hear it, oncethey see it fly, I think there's going to be a really turning
point for for people that not only makes this real,but makes them understand it is real and it is safe.
(Dave Mulholland)So, Matt,
you know, first of all,I want to thank William and I want to thank you personally for
for coming on and talking about the vehicles, talking
about the reports and talking about the public perception.
(20:52):
It's certainly great to talk to you todayand understand the vision of where you're going.
I can't wait for the public to see this really come into actionand come into reality.
It's inevitable it is coming.
But before we go, I have one more question.
Where are you going to take your first trip?
Where is it going to go?
(21:13):
(Matt Broffman)You know, it's funny.
Most likely it will be a work trip, right?
I joke. You know, the beauty.
What I love about my job is I get to work with all sortsof cities and counties all across the state of Florida.
The downside is I am every day validating the challenge
of driving and commuting across the state of Florida.
And so I imagine that one of my first trips in the Liliumjet will be to go visit our office in Miami
(21:37):
or to meet with the city somewhere across across Florida.
(Dave Mulholland)Actually think in the connection between our Orlando office and our Tampa office.
And if you ever get the connection up to Atlanta,that would even be better for me personally.
As much as I travel up to and from to and from Atlanta.
(Matt Broffman)We think we'll see Lilium jets all across the country eventually.
Right.
So I'm sure we'll be looking at it, at some pointThat's what we're hoping, sir.
(21:57):
(Dave Mulholland)Matt, I can't wait to take my first trip on the Lilium jet.
Thank you so much for joining us today and letting our Viewpointslisteners know more about the future of advanced air mobility.
It's exciting to see it start right here in Florida.
And it's really going to be a game changer for transportationin connecting communities across the globe.
(Matt Broffman and Matt Broffman)Thanks for having me, Dave. I appreciate you being here. Thanks.
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