September 27, 2024 • 22 mins
Transform your entrepreneurial journey with the power of storytelling! Join us as we chat with a remarkable freelance memoir ghostwriter who has journeyed from Hollywood TV writing to the life of a digital nomad. She shares her captivating transition and offers the secrets behind turning business insights into compelling, narrative-driven books. Discover the meticulous process she employs, from in-depth interviews to detailed outline creation, and how these steps help elevate an entrepreneur's authority and credibility.
Learn the art and commerce blend that makes storytelling a potent tool for business growth. We'll dissect strategic publishing decisions, weighing the pros and cons of traditional versus self-publishing, and highlight the incredible benefits of maintaining creative control and higher royalties through self-publishing. Listen to examples like "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" to understand the enduring success of narrative-driven business books. Infuse your business model with a well-crafted book and watch as it builds a loyal community and opens new revenue streams. Don't miss out on these invaluable insights into the transformative power of storytelling in business.
Connect with Amy:
Website: https://www.amysuto.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sutoscience/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-suto-46194842/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sutoscience
Twitter (X): https://x.com/Sutoscience
Master the art of virtual business & create a life you love! Join Natalie Guzman, your host on Virtual Antics, a weekly podcast for digital entrepreneurs seeking work-life balance.✨
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Virtual Antics Podcast, where we
help entrepreneurs streamlinetheir business to six figures
and beyond.
These short, sweet andinfo-packed episodes will
inspire, educate and leave youfeeling motivated to take one
more step forward in yourbusiness.
So put down your never-endingto-do list, because in this
podcast, we are interviewing thebest of the best in the
entrepreneurial world as theyspill their secrets to success.
(00:23):
This podcast is sponsored byNadora, the all-in-one software
for entrepreneurs to grow theirbusiness, with unlimited landing
pages, automations, emails andtext campaigns, and so much more
.
I'm your host, natalie Guzman.
Now let's get into it.
Hey me, how you doing today.
I'm doing great.
Thanks so much for having me onthe show, natalie.
Yeah, I'm so excited you'rehere and I'm really interested
(00:45):
to hear your story and how yougot into what you do.
So tell us.
What is it exactly that you do.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, so I've been a freelance memoir ghostwriter for
the past eight years, and so Ibasically travel the world and
write people's stories, and so Ithink that this has kind of
been such an interestingperspective.
I'm actually in Madeira,portugal, this week, and then
I'm headed to Austria next weekto interview a client for their
book, and I feel like thatthere's something really special
(01:12):
in terms of what it takes tothink about your life story and
understand what are the thingsthat you want to share with
people and how to help them.
And I work with a lot ofentrepreneurs who have not only
lived really extraordinary livesbut also have a lot of business
lessons to tell, and instead ofwriting a business book that's
pretty dry, being like youshould do this, you should do
this.
Really encasing those businesslessons in somebody's life story
(01:34):
really adds kind of anotherlayer to the business advice
itself.
I think that some of the bestbusiness books are also kind of
like narrative nonfiction books,and I bring that kind of like
storytelling background from mytime as I would be a TV writer
in Hollywood, and that's kind ofwhere I cut my storytelling,
and so that is the experience Ibring into my more ghostwriting.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh I love that and that's such like an important
thing.
That you're doing is like story, and so how'd you get into
ghostwriting?
I know you just said that youused to do it for movies,
correct?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, so I was a TV writer in Hollywood, so I used
to write for TV shows and then,while I was coming up as an
assistant, eventually got to doTV writing.
I was basically moonlighting asa memoir ghostwriter.
I was working for Olympians andNBA players and like a lot of
really inspiring people withwith cool stories to tell.
And then, as I was kind ofstarting to be flown out by my
clients and really enjoying thatprocess, I was like I think
(02:24):
this is what I'm meant to do notnecessarily the TV writing and
so I left Hollywood and then,when 2020 hit and the whole
world kind of changed, I becamea full-time digital nomad and I
started traveling full-time andI just really love this kind of
lifestyle of being able totravel and be able to go and
tell people stories.
And I think that, like Iparticularly love the work that
I do with entrepreneurs, becausea lot of people don't realize
(02:46):
that your book is something thatis evergreen and it's something
that, if you write it wellenough, it lives on people's
shelves forever and it willconstantly do a lot of heavy
lifting for you, whether it iskind of showcasing services that
you sell or, you know, givingyou authority in a certain area
or kind of like, just kind ofcreating a mystique around you
that when you publish a book itjust changes your life and it's
(03:07):
just.
It's been.
It's been really exciting tosee that process.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Oh, that's amazing.
So tell me a little bit aboutthe process.
So like, how does, how does heeven get started?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, so I love to kind of like start the process
and really kind of under whothis person is that I'm creating
this book for, and so I usuallystart with either in person
interviews or interviews overzoom, where I just get to know
them, get to know their storyand really understand who they
want their story to be heard by,because there's a difference
between just writing a book andwriting a book to be read and
(03:39):
thinking about your audience andthe reader.
Experience is something that Ilearned in Hollywood.
I learned coming up as a writerof like really trying to write
with the audience mind, whichmeans writing so that like
you're crafting stories andcharacter arcs around, like
lessons and making it a pageturner.
And I think that the bestnonfiction books feel like they
have those elements of fictionand story structure and all of
(04:00):
those kind of like classicpieces that keep people kind of
turning those pages, while stillimparting the important lessons
that you have to share fromlike your work and your life and
your business.
And so we kind of go throughthis like two-week interview
process where I basically kindof like get them to share with
me old emails, journal entries,I interview them, sometimes I
interview their family and theirfriends, and then from there I
(04:22):
take that into first two-stepoutline process and then, as
we're working through theoutline together, then that kind
of creates the foundation forthe draft and then after that we
move into.
I send them chapters every weekand then from there we bring in
beta readers and get feedback,and so there's kind of like a
whole scientific method to theprocess of writing the book.
But it all comes back to likethese pillars of what are you
(04:44):
trying to share, what's yourmessage, and then what is the
way that we can structure yourstory in a way that will change
your readers lives and then, inexchange, also your life.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
That is so cool.
So you really have to kind oflike step in their shoes and
kind of like, really like almostdo you ever like pretend like
you're them when you're hearingthese is, and you're like
because I know like ghostwriteryou're writing their stories
feel like you step into theirshoes a bit.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that's kind of what
separates like a goodghostwriter from just any other
good writer is that as aghostwriter, I have to be a
chameleon and step into theirshoes.
And that's very similar to thework that I used to do as a TV
writer, where I'm writingfictional characters and writing
in their voice.
And I think that's why the jumpfelt very natural to me,
because I love already kind ofwriting into a character's voice
(05:28):
and understanding themotivation somebody has and how
they speak and like what theysound like on the page and so
bringing that to memoirghostwriting was a jump because
you know I'd already beenwritten and all of written
writing and all these othercharacters.
And so stepping into somebodythat I know, I'm getting to know
really well and I'munderstanding who they want to
speak to and how they want tocome across, while also really
(05:50):
trying to maintain their uniqueway of speaking.
And I do that through a lot ofdifferent exercises, starting
from like the first outline,like first, like trying to write
in their voice so that they cangive me notes, and then also
having voice memos and recordingor Zoom calls I can listen back
and really get into the cadenceof their voice and the rhythm
that they speak, but adaptingthat to the page so that once
(06:11):
again readers can really feellike it's propulsive and
something that is moving forwardbut it still feels uniquely
them.
How long does the whole processtake?
Yeah, so it kind of depends.
Some projects are a little bitlonger because they require more
research.
I've worked on some kind oftrue crime memoirs where I had
to go like interview a bunch oflawyers and things like that,
and that can take a little bitlonger.
(06:31):
But for some of the morestandard books it can take
anywhere from like four to sevenmonths Usually, with average
being around six months.
But it depends on, like, theclient's availability and kind
of how we're doing the process.
But usually with any projectlike this you want to kind of
compress it, because if youspend too much time writing it
then you can lose the thread.
Or if you start and stop, likeit isn't as effective as really
(06:54):
sitting down in a moment in yourlife when you're ready to tell
that story and ready to kind oflike go through that journey and
start to finish.
So then you let it kind of moveon too long, like any writer
can tell you, if you stop aproject midway, you become a
different person by the time youreturn to it and then you just
lose the thread and it's a lotharder to get back in oh, 100%.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I even feel like that when I record sometimes and I
have like interruptions and I'mlike I was, we were at such a
good spot.
Where do I go from here?
And it's like you know, reallylike immersing yourself, and you
know it's.
I think that's one thing a lotof entrepreneurs that we
struggle with is that we don'tactually like stay in the moment
and like be present 100%,because we're always jumping to
the next thing.
And that's really interestingbecause for what you do, you
(07:36):
really have to stay in themoment and because you have to
follow your train of thought.
And so I've always been likeI've always admired writers,
because there's like so manydifferent aspects you guys do
and you have to like I am avidreader.
If you look at my Amazon Kindleright now, I've been reading
every week for like sevenstraight.
Amazing, yeah, I love reading.
(07:57):
I love it, and that's why I wasso excited to have you on the
show, because what you do is soit is an art, like you said
earlier, and there's like somany and think about person
there's so many different eventslike I can name top five events
that changed my life.
Um, and sometimes a lot ofpeople have a lot more,
especially if they're older thanme, and so you have to kind of
(08:19):
have to like pick, and you pickand choose what moments to
reflect, or does your client alittle?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
bit of both.
Some people come to me.
They're like this is the moment, everything changed.
And some people come to me andthey're like this is my whole
life, like how do you think weshould tell it?
And that's kind of also likethe the difference between
memoir and autobiography,whereas like autobiography is
kind of more of like a I wasborn, this happened, this
happened, this happened, andhere we are today, whereas like
a memoir is a little bit morekind of like artistic, where
(08:44):
we're telling stories, maybe outof order or kind of like
pulling different things atdifferent times and kind of
adding a little bit more kind ofcreative storytelling flair to
it.
And I've done a fewautobiographies as well.
But I think that memoir is sucha great format because it
allows you to really take thereader on for your life and then
to arrange it in a way that hasthe most meaning, and I think
that that's really cool, that'samazing how you say, like not
(09:08):
everyone's journey in theprocess, right, so you have to
like really tailor it to yourclient.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
That's something you can really only do with, it's
not?
I always talk about, like SOPs,your standard operating
procedure.
This is how you do yourbusiness For you.
It'd be really hard to do thatBecause every single time is
different.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, and I think that that's why, exactly what
you're saying earlier, there'skind of like a difference
between, like, the business sideand then the art side, and the
art and commerce is always alittle bit in conflict.
But I also think that that's whyI've been so lucky to work with
such amazing clients is becausethey see that I come at it both
from the artistic side, assomebody who I'm an author
myself.
I have my own creative career, Icome from the storytelling
(09:47):
world, but I also kind of I havea background also a little bit
of marketing and a little bit oflike the commerce side of
things, and I also work with thebook marketing to help launch
some of these books, and so Iunderstand, like what is the
reader needing to, and so it'slike trying to bridge this gap
the artistic side of the process, where I'm tailoring it to the
client the client has a visionfor it but also trying to figure
(10:07):
out what is going to make thisa successful book that will
change this client's life interms of, you know, using this
book as a launching point for acourse or coaching or, you know,
as a TED talk, and so I thinkthat it's also trying to kind of
figure out, like what is the360 degrees of how art and
commerce ties into this thing.
So we're making art, but it'sart that also has a purpose and
(10:28):
can help change yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I worked for a company this was one of my first
jobs as a virtual assistant andthey had a book they used as a
lead mag and it was basicallylike a fiction story but that
surrounded their morals, theirgoals, like everything that they
wanted for as a mastermindgroup, and so it was basically
(10:50):
showing like this character thatrecently lost her dad and how
their group that surrounded themthis is Tribe of Millionaires
if anyone wants to read it buthow the people that are
surrounding him are the onesthat lifted him through that
process and it was such a goodand I was like in love with it.
(11:11):
So I love that you kind of gothrough this storytelling
instead of like this is how youdo this and this is how you do
that and this is like causethat's so tedious to read.
But when you have a story thatflows and like, as a reader, you
can immerse yourselves in thatperson is just so special.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, and I think that books like Rich Dad, poor
Dad really capture that where itstarts with that parable that
feels like almost like mysticalin a way, where but it really
kind of like gets you in thisperspective of seeing money and
business differently.
And I think that that thereason why that book which was
self published, by the way, soit wasn't even supported by a
major publisher and I think thatthe strength of that book lies
(11:47):
in that.
That blend of like narrativeand like kind of almost like a
fictional feel to it, but thenwith like hard advice, and so I
think that that blend works sowell for business books,
entrepreneurship books, andstriking that balance changed
completely the trajectory ofyour career and how your
business operates, becausepeople's brains just operate
(12:07):
different when they're reading astory and I know that you know
this is a reader that we justkind of get into this flow state
when story just grips us and itjust hits different.
It's different than you know.
If you put out 100 Instagramposts, those Instagram posts
will be old after certain.
Even blog content isn't superevergreen because Google still
wants you to feed the machines.
You have to constantly put outnew stuff, and so the nice thing
(12:28):
about a book is like it becomesevergreen.
It becomes something that canonly grow and compound and
become passive income as well asa legacy you can leave behind
and part of the estate that yourkids, if you'd like to.
And I think that that's kind oflike the unique thing about a
book.
It's like it's not justsomething that is like like like
you post it and then you forgetit and then nothing else
happens with it.
It can kind of grow over timeand there's a lot of books, like
(12:51):
you know, rich Dad, poor Dad,that like had that cult
following, that like after,after it published, it kind of
like really took off.
And same thing with like 48Loss of Power.
These were sleeper hits, thatnobody really loved it when it
first came out, but then itreally grew in prominence and
staples and really created thoseripple effects.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Another book that's along that same genre and
popularity is was it Think, growRich?
I think it is so that's so hardfor me to read.
I'm reading it right now forthe second time and it's so hard
for me to because it's not.
It has some stories, butthey're they're so many stories.
So like in the very beginningthey're like this helped this
(13:31):
person, this help.
They're switching so much, it'sso hard for me to read but
there's so much value.
So what I actually did was Iwent to chat G and I asked her
to give me a snippet of likewhat's their like key strategies
and give me like takeaways andkey points, which was a lot
easier to read for me, but I wasmissing the emotional
(13:51):
connection.
So I was like I can haveChatGPT, give me all the secrets
right here that were listed inthe book, but I'm not going to
feel, through the stories, I'mmissing so much by kind of like
doing that cheat way.
I felt like I was cheating I'venever done that with a book and
I was like I'm going to cheatjust for a second because it's
so hard for me to read.
(14:12):
I even tried listening to itand I couldn't get into it.
It was just so hard.
But that's why I think what youdo is so important because that
story, it gives you theemotional connection and it
makes it easier to connect,which is such an important part
of writing and reading a book.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that a lot of people
also don't realize that the bookprocess is such a sport.
Even if you are writing the bookyourself, you still need an
editor, you still need help withpublishing, even if you're
going the self-publishing routeor the traditional publishing
route.
No author does it alone.
Clients like have heard horrorstories of their friends who
(14:50):
tried to like write and publishtheir own book and not they
don't have a lot of experienceand then they just like end up
getting distracted and losingfocus on their business and like
there's there's been some likedevastating stories, and so I
think that just like any bigproject like writing a book
requires a lot of that kind oflike investment and planning and
trying to find experts to helpyou, because you wouldn't just
go and like learn how to build ahouse and build your own house
(15:12):
If you were also trying to run abusiness.
Like you wouldn't split yourfocus like that.
If you could have hire somebodyto help you build a house that
you would live in and yourfamily would live in.
And so I think that like thatis also something I see as like
a common mistake thatentrepreneurs make is like
trying to DIY too much of theirbook when they aren't trained
writers or they don't know howto, kind of like, put their
story in perspective, and thenthat often sets them back and
(15:33):
keeps them from reaping all thebenefits 100.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And you know, I always say, like I started my
business the same time I becamea mom and I always say, like you
know, they say it takes a tribeto raise your kids, right, well
, it takes a tribe to grow abusiness, to write a book,
anything that you want to beextremely successful.
You can't do it alone.
Like even say that you want tobe extremely successful.
You can't do it alone.
Like even say that you builtyour business all by yourself,
never hired anyone.
(15:56):
Well, you probably read books.
You probably won.
Those are people that you kindof collected to your tribe and
you learned from.
So it's always bigger than youand that's why I think the best
things are they're always biggerthan the one person.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I love that and I think that that's like the whole
idea of like standing on theshoulders of giants.
It's like we all had to readthese business books to get to
that next step and it's like,and I also think that I think
that's also why I think thatbook writing is so generous,
because you learned from booksand it's like, and then by
leaving your experience forsomebody else and being like
here, like avoid these pitfalls,you're doing something so
generous to help that person.
(16:28):
And and that's something that Idid when I published my first
book, six Figure FreelanceWriter, where I basically wanted
to lay out why people like thethings people should avoid when
it comes to the pitfalls ofbecoming a freelance writer.
And that book has changed a lotof my trajectory because people
saw that and were just kind ofreally blown away by the
(16:49):
pitfalls that they hadn't seenand felt like it really helped
them leapfrog.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I apologize, I lost count.
Oh good, no worries, all right.
So it's so funny because wewere just talking about this,
like when you're interrupted andyou lose it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It's a struggle, it's difficult.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, okay, so pineapple, pineapple.
I do that so I know where toedit.
Sorry, okay, so we left.
Where did we left off?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, so I was talking a little bit about kind
of like the impact that havinghave on business and I think
that when you're an entrepreneur, you're trying to think about
like, like you know, why shouldyou hire an entire team of
people to help you, you know,write a book?
Like why not put that moneyinto TikTok or ads or all of
these other things?
And I think that like that'skind of like the tricky decision
that a lot of entrepreneurshave to make for themselves,
(17:38):
because you have to kind ofunderstand the risk that
publishing a book is and alsounderstand the two different
paths.
I think that a lot of peoplewho see traditional publishing I
think these days it's lessapplicable for entrepreneurs and
I think that that's mostlybecause if you buy a book on
Amazon, it could be selfpublished, it could be
traditionally published, youhave no idea and you can get
print books in the mail that areprinted beautifully, that look
(17:59):
fantastic, that you would haveno idea are self-published.
And that has been really recentin the last few years because
of Amazon KDP, which has a printon demand service, and so you
don't have to buy warehousesfull of your books published,
which is different and somethingthat has been kind of more in
the last like 10 years, and so Ithink that entrepreneurs, when
they look at traditionalpublishing, at first it's like,
(18:20):
oh, I could get an advance and afancy book deal.
But then you have to realize youhave to wait for your book come
to shelves, and sometimes yourbook doesn't make it through the
publishing process.
Sometimes it dies, and thensometimes you might publish one
book, want to write a second,and then the publisher is like
no, I don't think so, and theyown the rights to your first
book and so sometimes they canblock you depending on your deal
with them, and so there's awhole bunch of process with that
(18:42):
.
That is like I see.
When I tell that toentrepreneurs, they immediately
like, oh, I don't want to dothat, because when you're able
to launch your own book whichtraditional publishers will
still expect you to do your ownmarketing but if you
self-publish, you keep more ofthe royalty.
You get to build your bookfunnel pages, your landing pages
, to not only sell the book butalso to sell other offers
coaching or getting people onyour email list, and there's so
(19:04):
many other ways that youcustomize your launch.
You can actually pick what yourbook cover is and if you do
traditional publishing you can'tpick your book cover, which I
think that that's kind of like anew era that's being ushered in
is a lot of entrepreneurs kindof using their book launch as an
excuse to go on podcast toursas a way to build press and
awareness around their servicesand their businesses
(19:39):
no-transcript.
And I feel like when you starthearing readers read your book
for the first time and leavingreviews, emailing you and being
like your book changed my life,then like that feels like
completely next level.
That is something that aYouTube video or TikTok videos
as helpful as those are incertain contexts, they can't
(20:02):
give you that sort ofsatisfaction in a way that when
your reader readers like readabout your life story, your
accomplishments and what you'velearned and they get value from
that, like that's that's anunmistakable feeling.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh 100% and you know, kind of like what you're saying
.
So we have a lot of clientsthat are self-published authors
and we have done like they'vecreated multiple courses that
surround the topic of their bookand so they keep having new
launches, even though theypublished a book like 10 years
ago.
But you know, you're able totake that information and almost
(20:30):
have like a brand new launchlike anytime you want, you know,
and so like we've createdcourses for them and websites
and landing pages andautomations and so many
different like workshops, andthey're just so much fun and
they have so much success.
And it's because they'recreating this by doing courses,
they're creating a community ofreaders and they're able to
(20:52):
interact with the authors, whichI think is a lot different than
what it used to be, cause Ifeel like it was always like you
would have the book but youwouldn't have the author, and
now you kind of get the haveboth, which is really cool.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think that's really cool about what you do
and like that kind of like twopart like approach of like you
have a really beautifullywritten book and then you use it
to like permeate every part ofit.
I think it's like such a greatpart of like a funnel is to like
have a book as like a point ofentry for somebody to really
gain their trust before theypurchase something.
That is like a bit higherticket and I think that that is
(21:23):
like such an important piece andeven if, like the book is like
fairly inexpensive, it offers,like somebody, a step into
really your world and yourofferings and it feels a lot
more permanent because I feellike I remember the authors of
books that I've read way morethan I remember somebody giving
business advice on TikTok.
And I think that permanence isreally really important because
(21:46):
we're all fighting for space inthe attention economy and I
think that even though writing abook and publishing a book and
all of the investment that goesinto that is pretty huge, I
think that the payoff is reallyhuge as well.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Well, you've given us so much insight and I really
appreciate you coming on theshow.
Can you tell us where we canfind more about you and your
services?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, so everyone can go to my website, amysutocom.
My last name is spelled S-U-T-O, and you can also go to my
social media, which I haveeverywhere at Suto Science.
So my last name, suto Science.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Awesome.
I'll make sure I put that inthe show notes as well.
But thank you so much, amy, forcoming on the show.
I've had a blast.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme, natalie.
Anytime, we'll talk to you guysnext time on the Virtual Index
Podcast.
Welcome to the Virtual Antics Podcast, where we
help entrepreneurs streamlinetheir business to six figures
and beyond.
These short, sweet andinfo-packed episodes will
inspire, educate and leave youfeeling motivated to take one
more step forward in yourbusiness.
So put down your never-endingto-do list, because in this
podcast, we are interviewing thebest of the best in the
entrepreneurial world as theyspill their secrets to success.
(00:23):
This podcast is sponsored byNadora, the all-in-one software
for entrepreneurs to grow theirbusiness, with unlimited landing
pages, automations, emails andtext campaigns, and so much more
.
I'm your host, natalie Guzman.
Now let's get into it.
Hey me, how you doing today.
I'm doing great.
Thanks so much for having me onthe show, natalie.
Yeah, I'm so excited you'rehere and I'm really interested
(00:45):
to hear your story and how yougot into what you do.
So tell us.
What is it exactly that you do.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, so I've been a freelance memoir ghostwriter for
the past eight years, and so Ibasically travel the world and
write people's stories, and so Ithink that this has kind of
been such an interestingperspective.
I'm actually in Madeira,portugal, this week, and then
I'm headed to Austria next weekto interview a client for their
book, and I feel like thatthere's something really special
(01:12):
in terms of what it takes tothink about your life story and
understand what are the thingsthat you want to share with
people and how to help them.
And I work with a lot ofentrepreneurs who have not only
lived really extraordinary livesbut also have a lot of business
lessons to tell, and instead ofwriting a business book that's
pretty dry, being like youshould do this, you should do
this.
Really encasing those businesslessons in somebody's life story
(01:34):
really adds kind of anotherlayer to the business advice
itself.
I think that some of the bestbusiness books are also kind of
like narrative nonfiction books,and I bring that kind of like
storytelling background from mytime as I would be a TV writer
in Hollywood, and that's kind ofwhere I cut my storytelling,
and so that is the experience Ibring into my more ghostwriting.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh I love that and that's such like an important
thing.
That you're doing is like story, and so how'd you get into
ghostwriting?
I know you just said that youused to do it for movies,
correct?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, so I was a TV writer in Hollywood, so I used
to write for TV shows and then,while I was coming up as an
assistant, eventually got to doTV writing.
I was basically moonlighting asa memoir ghostwriter.
I was working for Olympians andNBA players and like a lot of
really inspiring people withwith cool stories to tell.
And then, as I was kind ofstarting to be flown out by my
clients and really enjoying thatprocess, I was like I think
(02:24):
this is what I'm meant to do notnecessarily the TV writing and
so I left Hollywood and then,when 2020 hit and the whole
world kind of changed, I becamea full-time digital nomad and I
started traveling full-time andI just really love this kind of
lifestyle of being able totravel and be able to go and
tell people stories.
And I think that, like Iparticularly love the work that
I do with entrepreneurs, becausea lot of people don't realize
(02:46):
that your book is something thatis evergreen and it's something
that, if you write it wellenough, it lives on people's
shelves forever and it willconstantly do a lot of heavy
lifting for you, whether it iskind of showcasing services that
you sell or, you know, givingyou authority in a certain area
or kind of like, just kind ofcreating a mystique around you
that when you publish a book itjust changes your life and it's
(03:07):
just.
It's been.
It's been really exciting tosee that process.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Oh, that's amazing.
So tell me a little bit aboutthe process.
So like, how does, how does heeven get started?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, so I love to kind of like start the process
and really kind of under whothis person is that I'm creating
this book for, and so I usuallystart with either in person
interviews or interviews overzoom, where I just get to know
them, get to know their storyand really understand who they
want their story to be heard by,because there's a difference
between just writing a book andwriting a book to be read and
(03:39):
thinking about your audience andthe reader.
Experience is something that Ilearned in Hollywood.
I learned coming up as a writerof like really trying to write
with the audience mind, whichmeans writing so that like
you're crafting stories andcharacter arcs around, like
lessons and making it a pageturner.
And I think that the bestnonfiction books feel like they
have those elements of fictionand story structure and all of
(04:00):
those kind of like classicpieces that keep people kind of
turning those pages, while stillimparting the important lessons
that you have to share fromlike your work and your life and
your business.
And so we kind of go throughthis like two-week interview
process where I basically kindof like get them to share with
me old emails, journal entries,I interview them, sometimes I
interview their family and theirfriends, and then from there I
(04:22):
take that into first two-stepoutline process and then, as
we're working through theoutline together, then that kind
of creates the foundation forthe draft and then after that we
move into.
I send them chapters every weekand then from there we bring in
beta readers and get feedback,and so there's kind of like a
whole scientific method to theprocess of writing the book.
But it all comes back to likethese pillars of what are you
(04:44):
trying to share, what's yourmessage, and then what is the
way that we can structure yourstory in a way that will change
your readers lives and then, inexchange, also your life.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
That is so cool.
So you really have to kind oflike step in their shoes and
kind of like, really like almostdo you ever like pretend like
you're them when you're hearingthese is, and you're like
because I know like ghostwriteryou're writing their stories
feel like you step into theirshoes a bit.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that's kind of what
separates like a goodghostwriter from just any other
good writer is that as aghostwriter, I have to be a
chameleon and step into theirshoes.
And that's very similar to thework that I used to do as a TV
writer, where I'm writingfictional characters and writing
in their voice.
And I think that's why the jumpfelt very natural to me,
because I love already kind ofwriting into a character's voice
(05:28):
and understanding themotivation somebody has and how
they speak and like what theysound like on the page and so
bringing that to memoirghostwriting was a jump because
you know I'd already beenwritten and all of written
writing and all these othercharacters.
And so stepping into somebodythat I know, I'm getting to know
really well and I'munderstanding who they want to
speak to and how they want tocome across, while also really
(05:50):
trying to maintain their uniqueway of speaking.
And I do that through a lot ofdifferent exercises, starting
from like the first outline,like first, like trying to write
in their voice so that they cangive me notes, and then also
having voice memos and recordingor Zoom calls I can listen back
and really get into the cadenceof their voice and the rhythm
that they speak, but adaptingthat to the page so that once
(06:11):
again readers can really feellike it's propulsive and
something that is moving forwardbut it still feels uniquely
them.
How long does the whole processtake?
Yeah, so it kind of depends.
Some projects are a little bitlonger because they require more
research.
I've worked on some kind oftrue crime memoirs where I had
to go like interview a bunch oflawyers and things like that,
and that can take a little bitlonger.
(06:31):
But for some of the morestandard books it can take
anywhere from like four to sevenmonths Usually, with average
being around six months.
But it depends on, like, theclient's availability and kind
of how we're doing the process.
But usually with any projectlike this you want to kind of
compress it, because if youspend too much time writing it
then you can lose the thread.
Or if you start and stop, likeit isn't as effective as really
(06:54):
sitting down in a moment in yourlife when you're ready to tell
that story and ready to kind oflike go through that journey and
start to finish.
So then you let it kind of moveon too long, like any writer
can tell you, if you stop aproject midway, you become a
different person by the time youreturn to it and then you just
lose the thread and it's a lotharder to get back in oh, 100%.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
I even feel like that when I record sometimes and I
have like interruptions and I'mlike I was, we were at such a
good spot.
Where do I go from here?
And it's like you know, reallylike immersing yourself, and you
know it's.
I think that's one thing a lotof entrepreneurs that we
struggle with is that we don'tactually like stay in the moment
and like be present 100%,because we're always jumping to
the next thing.
And that's really interestingbecause for what you do, you
(07:36):
really have to stay in themoment and because you have to
follow your train of thought.
And so I've always been likeI've always admired writers,
because there's like so manydifferent aspects you guys do
and you have to like I am avidreader.
If you look at my Amazon Kindleright now, I've been reading
every week for like sevenstraight.
Amazing, yeah, I love reading.
(07:57):
I love it, and that's why I wasso excited to have you on the
show, because what you do is soit is an art, like you said
earlier, and there's like somany and think about person
there's so many different eventslike I can name top five events
that changed my life.
Um, and sometimes a lot ofpeople have a lot more,
especially if they're older thanme, and so you have to kind of
(08:19):
have to like pick, and you pickand choose what moments to
reflect, or does your client alittle?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
bit of both.
Some people come to me.
They're like this is the moment, everything changed.
And some people come to me andthey're like this is my whole
life, like how do you think weshould tell it?
And that's kind of also likethe the difference between
memoir and autobiography,whereas like autobiography is
kind of more of like a I wasborn, this happened, this
happened, this happened, andhere we are today, whereas like
a memoir is a little bit morekind of like artistic, where
(08:44):
we're telling stories, maybe outof order or kind of like
pulling different things atdifferent times and kind of
adding a little bit more kind ofcreative storytelling flair to
it.
And I've done a fewautobiographies as well.
But I think that memoir is sucha great format because it
allows you to really take thereader on for your life and then
to arrange it in a way that hasthe most meaning, and I think
that that's really cool, that'samazing how you say, like not
(09:08):
everyone's journey in theprocess, right, so you have to
like really tailor it to yourclient.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
That's something you can really only do with, it's
not?
I always talk about, like SOPs,your standard operating
procedure.
This is how you do yourbusiness For you.
It'd be really hard to do thatBecause every single time is
different.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, and I think that that's why, exactly what
you're saying earlier, there'skind of like a difference
between, like, the business sideand then the art side, and the
art and commerce is always alittle bit in conflict.
But I also think that that's whyI've been so lucky to work with
such amazing clients is becausethey see that I come at it both
from the artistic side, assomebody who I'm an author
myself.
I have my own creative career, Icome from the storytelling
(09:47):
world, but I also kind of I havea background also a little bit
of marketing and a little bit oflike the commerce side of
things, and I also work with thebook marketing to help launch
some of these books, and so Iunderstand, like what is the
reader needing to, and so it'slike trying to bridge this gap
the artistic side of the process, where I'm tailoring it to the
client the client has a visionfor it but also trying to figure
(10:07):
out what is going to make thisa successful book that will
change this client's life interms of, you know, using this
book as a launching point for acourse or coaching or, you know,
as a TED talk, and so I thinkthat it's also trying to kind of
figure out, like what is the360 degrees of how art and
commerce ties into this thing.
So we're making art, but it'sart that also has a purpose and
(10:28):
can help change yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I worked for a company this was one of my first
jobs as a virtual assistant andthey had a book they used as a
lead mag and it was basicallylike a fiction story but that
surrounded their morals, theirgoals, like everything that they
wanted for as a mastermindgroup, and so it was basically
(10:50):
showing like this character thatrecently lost her dad and how
their group that surrounded themthis is Tribe of Millionaires
if anyone wants to read it buthow the people that are
surrounding him are the onesthat lifted him through that
process and it was such a goodand I was like in love with it.
(11:11):
So I love that you kind of gothrough this storytelling
instead of like this is how youdo this and this is how you do
that and this is like causethat's so tedious to read.
But when you have a story thatflows and like, as a reader, you
can immerse yourselves in thatperson is just so special.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, and I think that books like Rich Dad, poor
Dad really capture that where itstarts with that parable that
feels like almost like mysticalin a way, where but it really
kind of like gets you in thisperspective of seeing money and
business differently.
And I think that that thereason why that book which was
self published, by the way, soit wasn't even supported by a
major publisher and I think thatthe strength of that book lies
(11:47):
in that.
That blend of like narrativeand like kind of almost like a
fictional feel to it, but thenwith like hard advice, and so I
think that that blend works sowell for business books,
entrepreneurship books, andstriking that balance changed
completely the trajectory ofyour career and how your
business operates, becausepeople's brains just operate
(12:07):
different when they're reading astory and I know that you know
this is a reader that we justkind of get into this flow state
when story just grips us and itjust hits different.
It's different than you know.
If you put out 100 Instagramposts, those Instagram posts
will be old after certain.
Even blog content isn't superevergreen because Google still
wants you to feed the machines.
You have to constantly put outnew stuff, and so the nice thing
(12:28):
about a book is like it becomesevergreen.
It becomes something that canonly grow and compound and
become passive income as well asa legacy you can leave behind
and part of the estate that yourkids, if you'd like to.
And I think that that's kind oflike the unique thing about a
book.
It's like it's not justsomething that is like like like
you post it and then you forgetit and then nothing else
happens with it.
It can kind of grow over timeand there's a lot of books, like
(12:51):
you know, rich Dad, poor Dad,that like had that cult
following, that like after,after it published, it kind of
like really took off.
And same thing with like 48Loss of Power.
These were sleeper hits, thatnobody really loved it when it
first came out, but then itreally grew in prominence and
staples and really created thoseripple effects.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Another book that's along that same genre and
popularity is was it Think, growRich?
I think it is so that's so hardfor me to read.
I'm reading it right now forthe second time and it's so hard
for me to because it's not.
It has some stories, butthey're they're so many stories.
So like in the very beginningthey're like this helped this
(13:31):
person, this help.
They're switching so much, it'sso hard for me to read but
there's so much value.
So what I actually did was Iwent to chat G and I asked her
to give me a snippet of likewhat's their like key strategies
and give me like takeaways andkey points, which was a lot
easier to read for me, but I wasmissing the emotional
(13:51):
connection.
So I was like I can haveChatGPT, give me all the secrets
right here that were listed inthe book, but I'm not going to
feel, through the stories, I'mmissing so much by kind of like
doing that cheat way.
I felt like I was cheating I'venever done that with a book and
I was like I'm going to cheatjust for a second because it's
so hard for me to read.
(14:12):
I even tried listening to itand I couldn't get into it.
It was just so hard.
But that's why I think what youdo is so important because that
story, it gives you theemotional connection and it
makes it easier to connect,which is such an important part
of writing and reading a book.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, definitely, and I think that a lot of people
also don't realize that the bookprocess is such a sport.
Even if you are writing the bookyourself, you still need an
editor, you still need help withpublishing, even if you're
going the self-publishing routeor the traditional publishing
route.
No author does it alone.
Clients like have heard horrorstories of their friends who
(14:50):
tried to like write and publishtheir own book and not they
don't have a lot of experienceand then they just like end up
getting distracted and losingfocus on their business and like
there's there's been some likedevastating stories, and so I
think that just like any bigproject like writing a book
requires a lot of that kind oflike investment and planning and
trying to find experts to helpyou, because you wouldn't just
go and like learn how to build ahouse and build your own house
(15:12):
If you were also trying to run abusiness.
Like you wouldn't split yourfocus like that.
If you could have hire somebodyto help you build a house that
you would live in and yourfamily would live in.
And so I think that like thatis also something I see as like
a common mistake thatentrepreneurs make is like
trying to DIY too much of theirbook when they aren't trained
writers or they don't know howto, kind of like, put their
story in perspective, and thenthat often sets them back and
(15:33):
keeps them from reaping all thebenefits 100.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And you know, I always say, like I started my
business the same time I becamea mom and I always say, like you
know, they say it takes a tribeto raise your kids, right, well
, it takes a tribe to grow abusiness, to write a book,
anything that you want to beextremely successful.
You can't do it alone.
Like even say that you want tobe extremely successful.
You can't do it alone.
Like even say that you builtyour business all by yourself,
never hired anyone.
(15:56):
Well, you probably read books.
You probably won.
Those are people that you kindof collected to your tribe and
you learned from.
So it's always bigger than youand that's why I think the best
things are they're always biggerthan the one person.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
I love that and I think that that's like the whole
idea of like standing on theshoulders of giants.
It's like we all had to readthese business books to get to
that next step and it's like,and I also think that I think
that's also why I think thatbook writing is so generous,
because you learned from booksand it's like, and then by
leaving your experience forsomebody else and being like
here, like avoid these pitfalls,you're doing something so
generous to help that person.
(16:28):
And and that's something that Idid when I published my first
book, six Figure FreelanceWriter, where I basically wanted
to lay out why people like thethings people should avoid when
it comes to the pitfalls ofbecoming a freelance writer.
And that book has changed a lotof my trajectory because people
saw that and were just kind ofreally blown away by the
(16:49):
pitfalls that they hadn't seenand felt like it really helped
them leapfrog.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I apologize, I lost count.
Oh good, no worries, all right.
So it's so funny because wewere just talking about this,
like when you're interrupted andyou lose it.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
It's a struggle, it's difficult.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, okay, so pineapple, pineapple.
I do that so I know where toedit.
Sorry, okay, so we left.
Where did we left off?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, so I was talking a little bit about kind
of like the impact that havinghave on business and I think
that when you're an entrepreneur, you're trying to think about
like, like you know, why shouldyou hire an entire team of
people to help you, you know,write a book?
Like why not put that moneyinto TikTok or ads or all of
these other things?
And I think that like that'skind of like the tricky decision
that a lot of entrepreneurshave to make for themselves,
(17:38):
because you have to kind ofunderstand the risk that
publishing a book is and alsounderstand the two different
paths.
I think that a lot of peoplewho see traditional publishing I
think these days it's lessapplicable for entrepreneurs and
I think that that's mostlybecause if you buy a book on
Amazon, it could be selfpublished, it could be
traditionally published, youhave no idea and you can get
print books in the mail that areprinted beautifully, that look
(17:59):
fantastic, that you would haveno idea are self-published.
And that has been really recentin the last few years because
of Amazon KDP, which has a printon demand service, and so you
don't have to buy warehousesfull of your books published,
which is different and somethingthat has been kind of more in
the last like 10 years, and so Ithink that entrepreneurs, when
they look at traditionalpublishing, at first it's like,
(18:20):
oh, I could get an advance and afancy book deal.
But then you have to realize youhave to wait for your book come
to shelves, and sometimes yourbook doesn't make it through the
publishing process.
Sometimes it dies, and thensometimes you might publish one
book, want to write a second,and then the publisher is like
no, I don't think so, and theyown the rights to your first
book and so sometimes they canblock you depending on your deal
with them, and so there's awhole bunch of process with that
(18:42):
.
That is like I see.
When I tell that toentrepreneurs, they immediately
like, oh, I don't want to dothat, because when you're able
to launch your own book whichtraditional publishers will
still expect you to do your ownmarketing but if you
self-publish, you keep more ofthe royalty.
You get to build your bookfunnel pages, your landing pages
, to not only sell the book butalso to sell other offers
coaching or getting people onyour email list, and there's so
(19:04):
many other ways that youcustomize your launch.
You can actually pick what yourbook cover is and if you do
traditional publishing you can'tpick your book cover, which I
think that that's kind of like anew era that's being ushered in
is a lot of entrepreneurs kindof using their book launch as an
excuse to go on podcast toursas a way to build press and
awareness around their servicesand their businesses
(19:39):
no-transcript.
And I feel like when you starthearing readers read your book
for the first time and leavingreviews, emailing you and being
like your book changed my life,then like that feels like
completely next level.
That is something that aYouTube video or TikTok videos
as helpful as those are incertain contexts, they can't
(20:02):
give you that sort ofsatisfaction in a way that when
your reader readers like readabout your life story, your
accomplishments and what you'velearned and they get value from
that, like that's that's anunmistakable feeling.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh 100% and you know, kind of like what you're saying
.
So we have a lot of clientsthat are self-published authors
and we have done like they'vecreated multiple courses that
surround the topic of their bookand so they keep having new
launches, even though theypublished a book like 10 years
ago.
But you know, you're able totake that information and almost
(20:30):
have like a brand new launchlike anytime you want, you know,
and so like we've createdcourses for them and websites
and landing pages andautomations and so many
different like workshops, andthey're just so much fun and
they have so much success.
And it's because they'recreating this by doing courses,
they're creating a community ofreaders and they're able to
(20:52):
interact with the authors, whichI think is a lot different than
what it used to be, cause Ifeel like it was always like you
would have the book but youwouldn't have the author, and
now you kind of get the haveboth, which is really cool.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, I think that's really cool about what you do
and like that kind of like twopart like approach of like you
have a really beautifullywritten book and then you use it
to like permeate every part ofit.
I think it's like such a greatpart of like a funnel is to like
have a book as like a point ofentry for somebody to really
gain their trust before theypurchase something.
That is like a bit higherticket and I think that that is
(21:23):
like such an important piece andeven if, like the book is like
fairly inexpensive, it offers,like somebody, a step into
really your world and yourofferings and it feels a lot
more permanent because I feellike I remember the authors of
books that I've read way morethan I remember somebody giving
business advice on TikTok.
And I think that permanence isreally really important because
(21:46):
we're all fighting for space inthe attention economy and I
think that even though writing abook and publishing a book and
all of the investment that goesinto that is pretty huge, I
think that the payoff is reallyhuge as well.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Well, you've given us so much insight and I really
appreciate you coming on theshow.
Can you tell us where we canfind more about you and your
services?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, so everyone can go to my website, amysutocom.
My last name is spelled S-U-T-O, and you can also go to my
social media, which I haveeverywhere at Suto Science.
So my last name, suto Science.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Awesome.
I'll make sure I put that inthe show notes as well.
But thank you so much, amy, forcoming on the show.
I've had a blast.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme, natalie.
Anytime, we'll talk to you guysnext time on the Virtual Index
Podcast.
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