November 21, 2023 • 26 mins
In this episode, Kristin Ziemke joins us to discuss what it means to be literate in the digital age.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:17):
I'm so excited to introduce you all to my friend and mentor Kristen.
Zemke Kristen is a teacher and a staff developer and the co-author of several books,
including Read the World Rethinking Literacy for empathy and action in the digital age.
If there were to be a textbook for this class,
(00:40):
that book may in fact be it.
Um She is recognized as an international expert in literacy,
inquiry and technology.
Kristen collaborates with organizations around the world to develop experiences that redefine school and what it means to be literate in the digital age.
Currently,
(01:00):
she serves as a resident teachers for the Big Shoulders Fund in Chicago.
She is an Apple distinguished educator.
She's a Chicago public schools tech innovator of the year.
She's a nationally board certified teacher and she's just an all around incredible human.
I'm so excited for you to get to meet her today.
(01:24):
Thank you so much for joining us today,
Kristen.
It's so good to see your face and to talk to you,
my friend.
I miss you.
I miss you too.
It's so great to be here and I am always honored to connect with you and connect with your students and your PLN.
So thanks for reaching out.
Yay.
Well,
this is one of my very favorite weeks because the 22 things that I love so much reading and technology get to just collide in our conversation as we kind of think about how we can use technology to help our kids discover themselves as readers and discover the world through reading.
(01:59):
And I know that that's a huge part of your work with kids and the teachers all around the world.
And I just wonder what if you could start us off by talking about why that matters to you.
Oh,
absolutely.
Um,
I see us at this time where,
what we're really doing is enhancing or expanding the definition of what it means to read.
(02:25):
And so yes,
we are reading books and print texts and novels and articles and magazines and newspapers and we're reading graphics and art and facial expressions and reading with our ears and reading video and listening to podcasts and just g cleaning all kinds of access to storytelling,
(02:52):
information,
connections with others,
um,
all at the press of a button or the touch of our fingertips.
And so I think it's absolutely,
um,
the most exciting time to be a learner because now whatever you're curious about,
you can find more information somewhere in the world or the digital world.
(03:16):
And I absolutely think it's the best time to be a librarian or a teacher because now we can put these tools and resources in the hands of young people to inspire that um,
deep joy that comes along with learning.
I love the way you framed that by calling uh all the things that we do online,
(03:37):
reading,
reading,
video,
reading,
with our ears,
reading,
graphics,
et cetera.
I wonder if you might just expand on that idea just a little bit because I think it's really important for library workers to think about how reading is something we do well beyond print text.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And like for me,
it's that intersection of where comprehension happens,
(03:59):
you know,
like how do we take a medium or multi medium and start making sense of it?
You know,
like,
how do we infer in order to understand the background of that graphic or video?
How do we ask questions of the author,
whether that be a media content creator,
(04:20):
a blogger,
a social media poster,
a um more tradition,
author and have that like inner dialogue.
And then how do we start like summarizing and synthesizing that information so that we can use it?
We know that we have access today to more information than ever before.
And so it's critically important that we insert that thinking piece in order to make sense of it all.
(04:46):
So part of it,
for me is um teaching young people how to comprehend across these many different types of uh mediums.
And that's why I think when we talk about reading,
we all have some baseline understanding of what it means to read,
how readers get information.
And as we expand it into um new avenues,
(05:08):
we go back to a lot of those thinking pieces.
And then I think for me,
one of the most important um elements that goes along with that is that we give young people time to practice comprehending those strategies,
you know,
like we introduce,
we name,
we give them access to,
but they also need the time to build fluency in every new medium that they're presented with.
(05:33):
I think what you're saying here is also so applicable for some of my students who work in public libraries with older patrons who are learning those same skills or learning how to apply those same skills to digital media in a way that's similar to how young kids do it as well.
So those processes that you explained,
(05:54):
giving your learners,
your patrons the op the time to name and to synthesize et cetera uh is so important for all library workers,
not just those that are in schools,
but I couldn't help but think about why you were talking,
you know,
you and I,
we've even though we both look so young still,
we've known each other for a long time.
(06:14):
A lot of years,
long time I know and I feel like publishers are finally catching up to the idea that today's readers need multimodal text in order to sort of mirror the type of reading that they do outside of prints.
Do you see the same thing?
Poor share.
(06:35):
Um You know,
even when my first book came out way back and I think it was like 2013,
uh my writing partner Katie and I were arguing about like,
we can't just be telling about those things without experiencing it within a book.
And publishers were so behind in catching up to like what that might look like.
But I think about it all the time,
(06:56):
like as adult readers,
I'm like reading something in a bound printed book and I'm researching and looking up the location,
the places,
the ingredients that they're talking about in the book,
you know,
like words,
vocabulary on my phone.
And as well as when I'm working at my computer,
you know,
like I have,
I'm writing on paper or in a notebook,
(07:18):
I'm using my computer,
I'm working on my phone.
And so the Real world today is just leveraging all these tools we have to get the information.
And so yes,
I think um publishers are just catching up with it.
I get so excited when I read some type of multi touch text that has all of your features that I need in it.
(07:44):
And actually,
I was just at a conference this past week and I was speaking with a woman who's published um some of the first books in Brazil that have um a sl and digital like Braille access in them So when we think about like the inclusive opportunities,
(08:05):
I know to think that like,
there's a video of a sl going alongside with the text just like closed caption.
It's like,
oh my goodness,
like,
of course,
how can you not be excited?
Because like,
this is a win for every type of learner,
specifically learners that might not have had as much access in the past.
Oh my gosh.
And when somebody does that,
I don't know about you.
(08:25):
But I always think,
why haven't we been doing this all along is like,
it's,
it's mind blowing and at the same time,
gosh,
this should have been happening all along.
Yes.
And it seems so simple,
um,
to leverage it,
but apparently it has taken us a long time.
And so,
um,
I don't know when that happens.
I also get hopeful because I think about like all the things we haven't thought to do yet,
(08:50):
you know,
like we haven't reached the end of the continuum,
but like there are ideas we haven't even thought yet that can make this literacy and learning journey even better,
right?
Because for us,
like grizzled veterans,
you know,
it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking,
oh,
I've seen this before.
You know,
there's nothing doing with the sun and then somebody blows your mind like that.
You're like,
(09:10):
there's a lot more for us to discover a lot more.
That's amazing.
Well,
when you were talking about your process of,
you know,
reading about book and having your phone or having your,
you know,
computer next to et cetera and all the different ways that we consume and make meaning from content.
I couldn't help but think about also,
especially for young people,
for all people.
We're also creating content at that same time because as we share something we've read about or we decide to remix something,
(09:37):
all these tools really empower us to be creators in ways that previous generations just didn't have for sure.
And I think like that's,
that's what starts to like round out that puzzle of true literacy,
right?
Like it's consumption and creation,
right?
To be truly literate,
(09:58):
you need to know both sides of that coin.
And um now we can create and make so many different things and every young person can publish a book on book creator or post a blog somewhere or social media as well as you mentioned before with public librarians,
every person that maybe didn't have a voice previously or was held back by barriers in the publishing area or felt like they um didn't matter as much because they weren't contributing content that lived in the real world.
(10:33):
Now,
every one of us can do that.
And that's definitely a power shifter.
And I think it's a um gateway to engagement too,
like we can all be better citizens,
we can all engage in the civic process in many different ways when we have a voice and that voice matters.
And so the creation piece um is incredibly important.
(10:55):
And again,
that's another piece that we need to make time to build fluency and right,
like,
we can't just make one movie and be done with it.
But how do we revise,
how do we watch and like,
try to mimic or um write in the style of this video producer,
create graphics that look like XY or Z.
Um And so a lot of it is like knowing what's out there,
(11:17):
but then being able to reproduce it.
I,
I think there's so much power in that idea of how these things go hand in hand and one of them really serves the other.
It's not a binary,
it's not like we either have to do this in school or we either have to do this in libraries or that we really have to do both.
And as you were talking,
(11:38):
I was thinking about this idea of how in schools,
we talk a lot about stamina,
you know,
reading stamina and kids developing uh perseverance and grit and all of those things.
But none of those things exist without motivation.
You don't have stamina without motivation,
you don't develop grit without motivation or hope or those types of things.
And so this the empowerment piece that technology offers to the people,
(12:03):
young and old people that we serve um as readers and participants and citizens,
I think feeds into these other goals,
academic or otherwise.
Right.
It's not like one is the dessert and the other is the vegetables.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's for sure.
And it's not like,
um,
it's not linear in that,
(12:24):
like,
first you go XYZ and then at the end you make some type of multimedia project to show what,
you know,
but it's almost more like handball.
Whereas back and forth you're like curating using one thing and sharing,
using another and then figuring out ways that you can leverage all of those tools.
Um And when you talked a little bit about like that motivation piece,
(12:47):
I think that's where we get to um passion and curiosity.
And like now,
you know,
you might have been the outlier that was only the only person in your school interested in.
Um I don't know,
like needlepoint,
but now you have a community online that can help you refine your identity and feel connected.
(13:08):
And because you have that community,
you can learn so much deeper in so many different ways.
And so I think curiosity for me is often that connector or that hook that pulls us down the path of learning and because we're interested in it and you end up with uh possibly like more questions than you even started with.
(13:29):
That's where we see that beautiful cycle where learning becomes joyful because we're connected to it.
We have that motivation and that endurance and that drive to keep going and all of this,
I mean,
you know,
it will come as no surprise to you.
But when you talk about things like that,
I can't help but think of librarians and library work because librarians have always been conduits,
(13:52):
you know,
even prior to take.
Yeah,
I mean,
that's always been our job is to connect,
you know,
people to story information to one another,
to their,
our communities,
et cetera,
et cetera.
These tools now just offer us so many new ways to do it.
It's the same work.
It's just been empowered,
I guess,
(14:12):
you know,
or is on steroids now.
Well,
and like for sure,
librarians have always been the conduit and I think like you have been the people that are always giving access to the real world,
right?
Like there aren't those barriers,
you can go learn about history,
you can go learn about science,
you can go learn about um publishing or authors or how to make things.
(14:36):
And now you can just do that in so many more ways and provide the opportunity for people who might not um have access to these learning materials elsewhere,
right?
Like not everything is affordable always or um books are expensive or tutors are hard to find and also expensive.
(14:57):
But now people can go to the library um especially the public libraries to find access to the internet,
books tools they can use maker spaces ways to connect as well as additional wraparound services.
And I think in schools for teachers who may feel constrained or trapped by the standards or the assessments and struggle to figure out ways to let curiosity drive instruction and let inquiry be a huge part of what they do when there's this looming test that this looming assessment librarians can be really helpful in,
(15:36):
um,
sort of illuminating the ways that,
that curiosity and that inquiry feeds into the standards,
like,
actually leads to the outcomes that you want because librarians don't have the stand the burden of the standards in the same way that a classroom teacher does for sure.
And I think that,
um,
you know,
even with standards,
we can find ways to ask questions to help students research so that they're doing the heavy lifting of learning,
(16:02):
the content that will be on standards.
And it's not just an adult like,
uh dispelling information on them that they have to know,
but instead it becomes more constructivist and gets to the foundational knowledge of what that standard is and how you need to use it,
whether it be in a project based format,
um or on a standardized test.
(16:24):
And so frequently,
I see librarians as those people that are like scaffolding the classroom practice and the teachers be like,
there's another way to do it,
let us help you with resources so that your students can get down the path of learning,
but in a different way that's more meaningful to each child.
Well,
and you know,
(16:44):
you and I could have a whole different podcast on the idea that,
you know,
standards are just the of what kids are supposed to be learning off the ceiling,
you know.
So it's not like a goal that we're shooting for necessarily,
but the foundation from which the inquiry should flow,
you know.
So,
um,
but sometimes,
I mean,
I remember as a classroom teacher it's,
(17:06):
you feel trapped by those assessments and sometimes it just takes a different set of eyes to say there,
you know,
let it,
let me help you do this in another way.
That would be more joyful for you and for your learners.
Yeah,
I think that's so true.
Another set of eyes and another set of hands to like support you to do that.
And that can be a complete game changer for a classroom teacher to have a great librarian um to support this work with students,
(17:34):
absolute game changer and not just for the teacher,
but for the kids who are going through this learning experience as well,
I'm gonna take a hard left turn but,
and I don't even know if I have a question attached to this,
but this is where my brain is going right now.
Is,
do you remember uh we're recording this in 2023.
So do you remember it ncte last year 2022 Nick Stone was one of the keynote speakers and someone in the course of her talk asked her,
(18:00):
why she writes books that contain things like text messages and recipes and photos and captions and all those things.
And she said,
as she was talking about how she was competing with things like Instagram and tiktok for readers.
But she said,
and this thing has stuck with me so deeply is that I want to create a reading space in books that feel safe and familiar to my readers who read in these other multi ways.
(18:33):
And that idea of like safe,
like multimodal text,
feeling like a safe place beyond the content.
I'm not even talking about the content itself,
just the design uh and the format feeling safe to today's readers.
I think about that all the time.
And I,
like I said,
I don't know that I have necessarily a question other than just wondering if you remember that moment or what your reaction is to it.
(18:58):
Yeah,
I totally remember that moment.
Um And I think uh it's,
it's so true and powerful,
right?
Like reading is heavy lifting for many um young people.
And so to find that those familiar touchstones or touch points where you can almost like take a breath,
understand the context,
know the setting and the situation.
(19:20):
Um it's kind of like coming up for a breath and swimming right where you just be like,
oh yeah,
OK.
I know where we are now.
Take a little like body break and regroup,
but I think it adds so much value to the many different ways that we're acknowledging literacy when we see authors do that,
you know,
Samira Ahmed is another person that uses the information and the writing of the day and all of her books.
(19:46):
And I think that's just such a,
um,
validation piece.
It's a connection to the real world and it's a way for all of us to celebrate and even name with the kids.
You know,
like you may not have thought like text messages were evidence or um you know,
pieces of information that add to the book.
(20:06):
But what you get from it is Xy and Z.
So like,
maybe you wanna try that in your writing or maybe you want to use a strategy like that that will connect back to um your audience.
And I think you could do that beyond printed texts as well,
right?
Like,
what could we add to videos that would communicate those messages?
What could you add to graphics?
(20:27):
How do we really bring in all of the literacy rich ways that we're accessing and gaining information today?
I'm reading a book right now um about sailing and it has um lyrics from songs that relate to the text.
It has recipes from the different islands that people have sailed to.
(20:49):
And then it has entries from their sailing log of documentation of like what the weather was like or what was happening.
And so it's so great to see like all these little nuggets of information coming from different places to complete the whole story.
And when we think about like storytelling as an art or as a tradition,
(21:10):
I think,
like,
there are a lot of like roots and tenants in that,
whether it be um voices or sound effects or like customary or like the background setting um that we see in storytelling that relates to a lot of these new literacy formats inserted in books.
You know,
I was thinking as you were talking,
you and I are already like,
(21:31):
you know,
we're sold on this new literacy idea,
obviously,
you know,
we bought in,
but this is something we believe and understand.
Um And as you were talking about your sailing book,
so many of the different modes that are being uh in which through which meaning is being conveyed in that book are traditional recipes,
ships,
logs,
that kind of thing.
And yet it's absolutely no different than the book that might include text messages or,
(21:56):
you know,
notification alerts on your phone.
And yeah,
and this is where my question is coming.
You know,
there are people who are resistant to example b the book that includes images and graphics and you know,
text messages,
et cetera,
but would probably see the value in the sailing book that you're talking about because those multiple modes are traditional,
(22:17):
they're things they understand,
right?
So how do we get those people who are um you know,
resistant might not be the right word.
Maybe fearful,
unsure.
It feels unfamiliar.
How do we get those people to understand,
um,
the way that literacy has changed so that they can serve the people,
the young people,
(22:38):
they serve in a better,
more effective way well,
and like,
maybe that's just it,
looking at like the history and the evolution of how informations come to be,
you know,
like there weren't always ship logs with notes that people wrote in,
right?
Or like people didn't always have handwrit recipes,
but that's like evolution over time.
(23:01):
And um I think like literacy continues to involve and evolve.
And so maybe we can help people see that like this is just another form of communicating.
Um just like,
you know,
we went from uh telegraphs to rent it,
written letters to emails to this,
like things will keep evolving and changing over time.
(23:24):
And I actually just had a conversation with that about like a I,
you know,
like regardless of what you feel about A I it is a form of literacy.
And so would we withhold access to that literacy from people as they need to be literate moving forward in order to interact with the world?
(23:47):
Um The conditions will keep changing.
I once heard um Doctor Anne Marie Emma Fon talk about this idea of like,
what will jobs of the future be and like,
what will they look like and sound like?
And how do we help learners prepare for those.
And what she said was that the jobs will always change,
like we can count on the jobs continuing to change.
(24:09):
And so our best method was to teach young people to learn how to learn because learning is forever and that's what we're going to have to do.
And so I see the text messages and the graphics and the emoji within printed text as just being one more way to learn about the world and to use information in order to make sense,
(24:32):
this seems like a perfect place for us to sort of wrap up our conversation.
I love that as sort of an end node.
Um But before you go,
I'm gonna ask two quick things uh that I always ask all of our guests first.
Although I think you may already have answered it.
Is what are you reading right now or do you have a book recommendation for my students?
And two?
Um where can they find you outside of this podcast?
(24:55):
Uh Good questions.
I just recently finished um the probability of everything and I absolutely loved it like this book took over all my thoughts and um I even had dreams about it at night and uh I just can't recommend it enough.
Um I'm also reading a book called An Embarrassment of Mangoes,
(25:17):
which is about a Canadian couple that sails from Toronto down through the Caribbean.
So that was the one that I was referencing.
Um And I'm reading another book called Blue Highway is about a man who drives back roads across America in order to learn more.
So,
um one book in print,
one book uh on Kindle and one of those is audible.
(25:38):
So like I'm,
I'm reading in lots of different ways too,
which I think is important for all of us as we continue to grow.
Um And if you are looking for me online,
you can find me at Kristen zemp.com.
Um I'm on Instagram and Threads and X and Facebook all over the place if you couldn't tell already.
(25:58):
Kristen is a real adventurer.
So she's all over the digital world and the real world all the time.
Big round globe.
Thank you my friend for taking some time for us.
I really,
really appreciate it and thank you to my students for tuning in this week.
I can't wait to hear your thoughts in our discussion thread on all the things that Chris and I talked about this week.
I'll see you there.
Happy learning everyone.
I'm so excited to introduce you all to my friend and mentor Kristen.
Zemke Kristen is a teacher and a staff developer and the co-author of several books,
including Read the World Rethinking Literacy for empathy and action in the digital age.
If there were to be a textbook for this class,
(00:40):
that book may in fact be it.
Um She is recognized as an international expert in literacy,
inquiry and technology.
Kristen collaborates with organizations around the world to develop experiences that redefine school and what it means to be literate in the digital age.
Currently,
(01:00):
she serves as a resident teachers for the Big Shoulders Fund in Chicago.
She is an Apple distinguished educator.
She's a Chicago public schools tech innovator of the year.
She's a nationally board certified teacher and she's just an all around incredible human.
I'm so excited for you to get to meet her today.
(01:24):
Thank you so much for joining us today,
Kristen.
It's so good to see your face and to talk to you,
my friend.
I miss you.
I miss you too.
It's so great to be here and I am always honored to connect with you and connect with your students and your PLN.
So thanks for reaching out.
Yay.
Well,
this is one of my very favorite weeks because the 22 things that I love so much reading and technology get to just collide in our conversation as we kind of think about how we can use technology to help our kids discover themselves as readers and discover the world through reading.
(01:59):
And I know that that's a huge part of your work with kids and the teachers all around the world.
And I just wonder what if you could start us off by talking about why that matters to you.
Oh,
absolutely.
Um,
I see us at this time where,
what we're really doing is enhancing or expanding the definition of what it means to read.
(02:25):
And so yes,
we are reading books and print texts and novels and articles and magazines and newspapers and we're reading graphics and art and facial expressions and reading with our ears and reading video and listening to podcasts and just g cleaning all kinds of access to storytelling,
(02:52):
information,
connections with others,
um,
all at the press of a button or the touch of our fingertips.
And so I think it's absolutely,
um,
the most exciting time to be a learner because now whatever you're curious about,
you can find more information somewhere in the world or the digital world.
(03:16):
And I absolutely think it's the best time to be a librarian or a teacher because now we can put these tools and resources in the hands of young people to inspire that um,
deep joy that comes along with learning.
I love the way you framed that by calling uh all the things that we do online,
(03:37):
reading,
reading,
video,
reading,
with our ears,
reading,
graphics,
et cetera.
I wonder if you might just expand on that idea just a little bit because I think it's really important for library workers to think about how reading is something we do well beyond print text.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And like for me,
it's that intersection of where comprehension happens,
(03:59):
you know,
like how do we take a medium or multi medium and start making sense of it?
You know,
like,
how do we infer in order to understand the background of that graphic or video?
How do we ask questions of the author,
whether that be a media content creator,
(04:20):
a blogger,
a social media poster,
a um more tradition,
author and have that like inner dialogue.
And then how do we start like summarizing and synthesizing that information so that we can use it?
We know that we have access today to more information than ever before.
And so it's critically important that we insert that thinking piece in order to make sense of it all.
(04:46):
So part of it,
for me is um teaching young people how to comprehend across these many different types of uh mediums.
And that's why I think when we talk about reading,
we all have some baseline understanding of what it means to read,
how readers get information.
And as we expand it into um new avenues,
(05:08):
we go back to a lot of those thinking pieces.
And then I think for me,
one of the most important um elements that goes along with that is that we give young people time to practice comprehending those strategies,
you know,
like we introduce,
we name,
we give them access to,
but they also need the time to build fluency in every new medium that they're presented with.
(05:33):
I think what you're saying here is also so applicable for some of my students who work in public libraries with older patrons who are learning those same skills or learning how to apply those same skills to digital media in a way that's similar to how young kids do it as well.
So those processes that you explained,
(05:54):
giving your learners,
your patrons the op the time to name and to synthesize et cetera uh is so important for all library workers,
not just those that are in schools,
but I couldn't help but think about why you were talking,
you know,
you and I,
we've even though we both look so young still,
we've known each other for a long time.
(06:14):
A lot of years,
long time I know and I feel like publishers are finally catching up to the idea that today's readers need multimodal text in order to sort of mirror the type of reading that they do outside of prints.
Do you see the same thing?
Poor share.
(06:35):
Um You know,
even when my first book came out way back and I think it was like 2013,
uh my writing partner Katie and I were arguing about like,
we can't just be telling about those things without experiencing it within a book.
And publishers were so behind in catching up to like what that might look like.
But I think about it all the time,
(06:56):
like as adult readers,
I'm like reading something in a bound printed book and I'm researching and looking up the location,
the places,
the ingredients that they're talking about in the book,
you know,
like words,
vocabulary on my phone.
And as well as when I'm working at my computer,
you know,
like I have,
I'm writing on paper or in a notebook,
(07:18):
I'm using my computer,
I'm working on my phone.
And so the Real world today is just leveraging all these tools we have to get the information.
And so yes,
I think um publishers are just catching up with it.
I get so excited when I read some type of multi touch text that has all of your features that I need in it.
(07:44):
And actually,
I was just at a conference this past week and I was speaking with a woman who's published um some of the first books in Brazil that have um a sl and digital like Braille access in them So when we think about like the inclusive opportunities,
(08:05):
I know to think that like,
there's a video of a sl going alongside with the text just like closed caption.
It's like,
oh my goodness,
like,
of course,
how can you not be excited?
Because like,
this is a win for every type of learner,
specifically learners that might not have had as much access in the past.
Oh my gosh.
And when somebody does that,
I don't know about you.
(08:25):
But I always think,
why haven't we been doing this all along is like,
it's,
it's mind blowing and at the same time,
gosh,
this should have been happening all along.
Yes.
And it seems so simple,
um,
to leverage it,
but apparently it has taken us a long time.
And so,
um,
I don't know when that happens.
I also get hopeful because I think about like all the things we haven't thought to do yet,
(08:50):
you know,
like we haven't reached the end of the continuum,
but like there are ideas we haven't even thought yet that can make this literacy and learning journey even better,
right?
Because for us,
like grizzled veterans,
you know,
it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking,
oh,
I've seen this before.
You know,
there's nothing doing with the sun and then somebody blows your mind like that.
You're like,
(09:10):
there's a lot more for us to discover a lot more.
That's amazing.
Well,
when you were talking about your process of,
you know,
reading about book and having your phone or having your,
you know,
computer next to et cetera and all the different ways that we consume and make meaning from content.
I couldn't help but think about also,
especially for young people,
for all people.
We're also creating content at that same time because as we share something we've read about or we decide to remix something,
(09:37):
all these tools really empower us to be creators in ways that previous generations just didn't have for sure.
And I think like that's,
that's what starts to like round out that puzzle of true literacy,
right?
Like it's consumption and creation,
right?
To be truly literate,
(09:58):
you need to know both sides of that coin.
And um now we can create and make so many different things and every young person can publish a book on book creator or post a blog somewhere or social media as well as you mentioned before with public librarians,
every person that maybe didn't have a voice previously or was held back by barriers in the publishing area or felt like they um didn't matter as much because they weren't contributing content that lived in the real world.
(10:33):
Now,
every one of us can do that.
And that's definitely a power shifter.
And I think it's a um gateway to engagement too,
like we can all be better citizens,
we can all engage in the civic process in many different ways when we have a voice and that voice matters.
And so the creation piece um is incredibly important.
(10:55):
And again,
that's another piece that we need to make time to build fluency and right,
like,
we can't just make one movie and be done with it.
But how do we revise,
how do we watch and like,
try to mimic or um write in the style of this video producer,
create graphics that look like XY or Z.
Um And so a lot of it is like knowing what's out there,
(11:17):
but then being able to reproduce it.
I,
I think there's so much power in that idea of how these things go hand in hand and one of them really serves the other.
It's not a binary,
it's not like we either have to do this in school or we either have to do this in libraries or that we really have to do both.
And as you were talking,
(11:38):
I was thinking about this idea of how in schools,
we talk a lot about stamina,
you know,
reading stamina and kids developing uh perseverance and grit and all of those things.
But none of those things exist without motivation.
You don't have stamina without motivation,
you don't develop grit without motivation or hope or those types of things.
And so this the empowerment piece that technology offers to the people,
(12:03):
young and old people that we serve um as readers and participants and citizens,
I think feeds into these other goals,
academic or otherwise.
Right.
It's not like one is the dessert and the other is the vegetables.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's for sure.
And it's not like,
um,
it's not linear in that,
(12:24):
like,
first you go XYZ and then at the end you make some type of multimedia project to show what,
you know,
but it's almost more like handball.
Whereas back and forth you're like curating using one thing and sharing,
using another and then figuring out ways that you can leverage all of those tools.
Um And when you talked a little bit about like that motivation piece,
(12:47):
I think that's where we get to um passion and curiosity.
And like now,
you know,
you might have been the outlier that was only the only person in your school interested in.
Um I don't know,
like needlepoint,
but now you have a community online that can help you refine your identity and feel connected.
(13:08):
And because you have that community,
you can learn so much deeper in so many different ways.
And so I think curiosity for me is often that connector or that hook that pulls us down the path of learning and because we're interested in it and you end up with uh possibly like more questions than you even started with.
(13:29):
That's where we see that beautiful cycle where learning becomes joyful because we're connected to it.
We have that motivation and that endurance and that drive to keep going and all of this,
I mean,
you know,
it will come as no surprise to you.
But when you talk about things like that,
I can't help but think of librarians and library work because librarians have always been conduits,
(13:52):
you know,
even prior to take.
Yeah,
I mean,
that's always been our job is to connect,
you know,
people to story information to one another,
to their,
our communities,
et cetera,
et cetera.
These tools now just offer us so many new ways to do it.
It's the same work.
It's just been empowered,
I guess,
(14:12):
you know,
or is on steroids now.
Well,
and like for sure,
librarians have always been the conduit and I think like you have been the people that are always giving access to the real world,
right?
Like there aren't those barriers,
you can go learn about history,
you can go learn about science,
you can go learn about um publishing or authors or how to make things.
(14:36):
And now you can just do that in so many more ways and provide the opportunity for people who might not um have access to these learning materials elsewhere,
right?
Like not everything is affordable always or um books are expensive or tutors are hard to find and also expensive.
(14:57):
But now people can go to the library um especially the public libraries to find access to the internet,
books tools they can use maker spaces ways to connect as well as additional wraparound services.
And I think in schools for teachers who may feel constrained or trapped by the standards or the assessments and struggle to figure out ways to let curiosity drive instruction and let inquiry be a huge part of what they do when there's this looming test that this looming assessment librarians can be really helpful in,
(15:36):
um,
sort of illuminating the ways that,
that curiosity and that inquiry feeds into the standards,
like,
actually leads to the outcomes that you want because librarians don't have the stand the burden of the standards in the same way that a classroom teacher does for sure.
And I think that,
um,
you know,
even with standards,
we can find ways to ask questions to help students research so that they're doing the heavy lifting of learning,
(16:02):
the content that will be on standards.
And it's not just an adult like,
uh dispelling information on them that they have to know,
but instead it becomes more constructivist and gets to the foundational knowledge of what that standard is and how you need to use it,
whether it be in a project based format,
um or on a standardized test.
(16:24):
And so frequently,
I see librarians as those people that are like scaffolding the classroom practice and the teachers be like,
there's another way to do it,
let us help you with resources so that your students can get down the path of learning,
but in a different way that's more meaningful to each child.
Well,
and you know,
(16:44):
you and I could have a whole different podcast on the idea that,
you know,
standards are just the of what kids are supposed to be learning off the ceiling,
you know.
So it's not like a goal that we're shooting for necessarily,
but the foundation from which the inquiry should flow,
you know.
So,
um,
but sometimes,
I mean,
I remember as a classroom teacher it's,
(17:06):
you feel trapped by those assessments and sometimes it just takes a different set of eyes to say there,
you know,
let it,
let me help you do this in another way.
That would be more joyful for you and for your learners.
Yeah,
I think that's so true.
Another set of eyes and another set of hands to like support you to do that.
And that can be a complete game changer for a classroom teacher to have a great librarian um to support this work with students,
(17:34):
absolute game changer and not just for the teacher,
but for the kids who are going through this learning experience as well,
I'm gonna take a hard left turn but,
and I don't even know if I have a question attached to this,
but this is where my brain is going right now.
Is,
do you remember uh we're recording this in 2023.
So do you remember it ncte last year 2022 Nick Stone was one of the keynote speakers and someone in the course of her talk asked her,
(18:00):
why she writes books that contain things like text messages and recipes and photos and captions and all those things.
And she said,
as she was talking about how she was competing with things like Instagram and tiktok for readers.
But she said,
and this thing has stuck with me so deeply is that I want to create a reading space in books that feel safe and familiar to my readers who read in these other multi ways.
(18:33):
And that idea of like safe,
like multimodal text,
feeling like a safe place beyond the content.
I'm not even talking about the content itself,
just the design uh and the format feeling safe to today's readers.
I think about that all the time.
And I,
like I said,
I don't know that I have necessarily a question other than just wondering if you remember that moment or what your reaction is to it.
(18:58):
Yeah,
I totally remember that moment.
Um And I think uh it's,
it's so true and powerful,
right?
Like reading is heavy lifting for many um young people.
And so to find that those familiar touchstones or touch points where you can almost like take a breath,
understand the context,
know the setting and the situation.
(19:20):
Um it's kind of like coming up for a breath and swimming right where you just be like,
oh yeah,
OK.
I know where we are now.
Take a little like body break and regroup,
but I think it adds so much value to the many different ways that we're acknowledging literacy when we see authors do that,
you know,
Samira Ahmed is another person that uses the information and the writing of the day and all of her books.
(19:46):
And I think that's just such a,
um,
validation piece.
It's a connection to the real world and it's a way for all of us to celebrate and even name with the kids.
You know,
like you may not have thought like text messages were evidence or um you know,
pieces of information that add to the book.
(20:06):
But what you get from it is Xy and Z.
So like,
maybe you wanna try that in your writing or maybe you want to use a strategy like that that will connect back to um your audience.
And I think you could do that beyond printed texts as well,
right?
Like,
what could we add to videos that would communicate those messages?
What could you add to graphics?
(20:27):
How do we really bring in all of the literacy rich ways that we're accessing and gaining information today?
I'm reading a book right now um about sailing and it has um lyrics from songs that relate to the text.
It has recipes from the different islands that people have sailed to.
(20:49):
And then it has entries from their sailing log of documentation of like what the weather was like or what was happening.
And so it's so great to see like all these little nuggets of information coming from different places to complete the whole story.
And when we think about like storytelling as an art or as a tradition,
(21:10):
I think,
like,
there are a lot of like roots and tenants in that,
whether it be um voices or sound effects or like customary or like the background setting um that we see in storytelling that relates to a lot of these new literacy formats inserted in books.
You know,
I was thinking as you were talking,
you and I are already like,
(21:31):
you know,
we're sold on this new literacy idea,
obviously,
you know,
we bought in,
but this is something we believe and understand.
Um And as you were talking about your sailing book,
so many of the different modes that are being uh in which through which meaning is being conveyed in that book are traditional recipes,
ships,
logs,
that kind of thing.
And yet it's absolutely no different than the book that might include text messages or,
(21:56):
you know,
notification alerts on your phone.
And yeah,
and this is where my question is coming.
You know,
there are people who are resistant to example b the book that includes images and graphics and you know,
text messages,
et cetera,
but would probably see the value in the sailing book that you're talking about because those multiple modes are traditional,
(22:17):
they're things they understand,
right?
So how do we get those people who are um you know,
resistant might not be the right word.
Maybe fearful,
unsure.
It feels unfamiliar.
How do we get those people to understand,
um,
the way that literacy has changed so that they can serve the people,
the young people,
(22:38):
they serve in a better,
more effective way well,
and like,
maybe that's just it,
looking at like the history and the evolution of how informations come to be,
you know,
like there weren't always ship logs with notes that people wrote in,
right?
Or like people didn't always have handwrit recipes,
but that's like evolution over time.
(23:01):
And um I think like literacy continues to involve and evolve.
And so maybe we can help people see that like this is just another form of communicating.
Um just like,
you know,
we went from uh telegraphs to rent it,
written letters to emails to this,
like things will keep evolving and changing over time.
(23:24):
And I actually just had a conversation with that about like a I,
you know,
like regardless of what you feel about A I it is a form of literacy.
And so would we withhold access to that literacy from people as they need to be literate moving forward in order to interact with the world?
(23:47):
Um The conditions will keep changing.
I once heard um Doctor Anne Marie Emma Fon talk about this idea of like,
what will jobs of the future be and like,
what will they look like and sound like?
And how do we help learners prepare for those.
And what she said was that the jobs will always change,
like we can count on the jobs continuing to change.
(24:09):
And so our best method was to teach young people to learn how to learn because learning is forever and that's what we're going to have to do.
And so I see the text messages and the graphics and the emoji within printed text as just being one more way to learn about the world and to use information in order to make sense,
(24:32):
this seems like a perfect place for us to sort of wrap up our conversation.
I love that as sort of an end node.
Um But before you go,
I'm gonna ask two quick things uh that I always ask all of our guests first.
Although I think you may already have answered it.
Is what are you reading right now or do you have a book recommendation for my students?
And two?
Um where can they find you outside of this podcast?
(24:55):
Uh Good questions.
I just recently finished um the probability of everything and I absolutely loved it like this book took over all my thoughts and um I even had dreams about it at night and uh I just can't recommend it enough.
Um I'm also reading a book called An Embarrassment of Mangoes,
(25:17):
which is about a Canadian couple that sails from Toronto down through the Caribbean.
So that was the one that I was referencing.
Um And I'm reading another book called Blue Highway is about a man who drives back roads across America in order to learn more.
So,
um one book in print,
one book uh on Kindle and one of those is audible.
(25:38):
So like I'm,
I'm reading in lots of different ways too,
which I think is important for all of us as we continue to grow.
Um And if you are looking for me online,
you can find me at Kristen zemp.com.
Um I'm on Instagram and Threads and X and Facebook all over the place if you couldn't tell already.
(25:58):
Kristen is a real adventurer.
So she's all over the digital world and the real world all the time.
Big round globe.
Thank you my friend for taking some time for us.
I really,
really appreciate it and thank you to my students for tuning in this week.
I can't wait to hear your thoughts in our discussion thread on all the things that Chris and I talked about this week.
I'll see you there.
Happy learning everyone.
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