Episode Transcript
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(00:15):
Hi,
everyone and welcome to a Ru 5 15 Voices of Literacy conversation.
This week,
we're gonna be talking to my friend and mentor.
Um,
and someone who has been sort of an educational hero to me for many,
many years,
Frankie Siverson.
Frankie Frankie.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
(00:37):
So excited to be here.
Yay.
This is gonna be so much fun.
Would you mind starting by just introducing yourself for our students?
Yeah,
for sure.
Um,
I'm Frankie Siverson.
I have been since I was a classroom teacher for 33 years and by classroom teacher.
I mean,
like I taught kindergarten through fifth grade.
I was a school librarian in elementary school for about four years.
(00:58):
I did reading intervention.
I was a literacy coach.
So I guess I was school based for 33 years and now we're doing literacy consulting work.
My big love is reading in grades 3 to 6.
That stage where they've learned how to read,
but we want to keep them as readers.
Um,
so I'm really interested in that and I'm interested in like,
really thinking about books and how we use those in the classroom.
(01:19):
So,
that's one of my kind of as a,
as a hobby.
But,
yeah,
a hobby and,
like,
you know,
what you think,
live,
breathe 24 7.
But I think all of that and then I just finished up,
I was president of NCTE National Council of Teachers of English,
which was amazing.
I just learned a lot and got to work with amazing people and,
(01:39):
you know,
experience things in it,
you know,
understanding literacy in the,
in the country in a way that I didn't before.
So that was fun.
And you've written like 14 books.
I have written some books and it's funny because every time I write a book,
it's about reading at grade 3 to 6.
So,
yeah,
what your book about?
I like reading at grade 3 to 6.
But yeah,
and most of my work is really like focusing on the books and the text and the digital text and like what the stuff is of reading,
(02:06):
you know,
how that's why I knew that you were the person I wanted to talk to for this week's module.
Um because this week's module really focuses on the idea of what literacy is over the course of the semester,
we're gonna look at 14 different types of literacy and,
and,
and we kind of define literacy a little loosely in that regard.
(02:28):
But um one of the things that we look at this week is nctes position statement on literacy.
And I guess I I just,
if we could spend some time just kind of unpacking what an a literacy is,
especially right now,
you know,
as we record this is 2021.
But so in this year and beyond,
what does that mean to be literate?
(02:49):
What is the literacy?
What's your opinion on that?
What's my opinion on that?
Well,
it's interesting.
So you brought up the ncte definition.
And so when I was on the N TT board years ago,
I was on the committee to write that first one and I wanna say that was like 2009,
I maybe,
maybe.
Um and I was like a K one teacher at the time and I was so anti technology,
(03:11):
like,
I was,
the technology I'd seen was like,
very like skill and drill and it was very,
I don't know,
just not anything worth my time.
And so I remember like,
kind of kicking and screaming,
like,
I've teach kids how to read,
like,
I don't want this and then all of a sudden,
I don't know what happened in that committee,
but I started seeing like the possibilities of technology and the ways technology has have actually changed what it means to be literate.
(03:36):
And then I was like,
all in,
but I didn't go in all in.
Do you know what I mean?
Like,
I,
so I understand the hesitation if you don't really think about what is literacy,
like,
because there's so much bad technology out there that the technology,
that's not the technology that changed what it means to be literate.
You know,
the other and the other piece for me,
(03:58):
I feel like when I started teaching writing workshop was,
like,
fabulous.
Like,
fabulous is my favorite thing.
Um,
but you had to work,
like,
as a teacher,
you had to,
like,
you know,
go to mcdonald's and see if they'd hang up your kids writing or go to the newspaper and hope that they publish one letter a year to the editor.
There was no audience.
And like,
all of a sudden now,
like,
social media has become like this,
(04:19):
I'm like,
we have an a,
like our kids are doing this what we like,
we went,
you know,
building the building to get our kids writing hung up and like,
they have this authentic audience.
And so the ways that,
that literacy has changed for our kids,
just that they're in their natural world is unbelievable.
And so just the ways that they're using it,
you know,
(04:39):
as I think about 33 years,
like this all happened in my career,
which is,
makes me feel a little different.
I'm right there with you.
I,
I mean,
I'm right there with you.
When I first started teaching,
there were no computers in the classroom.
There was,
yeah,
exactly.
Exactly.
You know,
like 100 years ago we're starting to sound like those old ladies that we feel like we first started teaching.
(05:03):
But it's true,
you know,
it is true when we really have watched the entire revolution of this.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I love what you're saying about audience too because,
you know,
I think there's even an ongoing evolution in that as well because so many of our,
we think about literacy a lot in terms of the consumption end of it,
(05:25):
the being able to decode text and make meaning from it,
the ability to have conversation around the ability to make new meaning from text.
All of that,
talk about literacy in that way.
But there's a whole other layer to the creation side of literacy and our kids.
Now,
whether we're talking about working with teens in a public library space or even the children's room in a public library space or we're talking about school librarians or even academic librarians to some degree,
(05:55):
the the young people we work with are all content creators in some capacity.
Some of whom actually really strive to be a content creator.
Like,
do you remember from like when I was a classroom teacher,
all of my kids wanted to be NBA stars.
They all you talked about what their like dream career was.
They all wanted to play ball for a living,
(06:17):
you know.
Oh yeah.
But now you talk to a lot of kids and they want to be youtubers,
they want to be Instagram influencers.
So the idea of being content creators is also aspirational.
It's not just something I have them.
Yeah.
So there's like,
there's a lot of layers to what it means and they already can be like,
(06:37):
I feel like it's,
I feel like before,
if they wanted to be an author,
they had to wait till that book got published.
You know what I mean?
Where now they know they can have a youtube channel when they're seven.
Yeah.
It's like there's this,
their class,
it's not like they can do this later.
I remember,
jeez,
this was kind of in the midst of all like,
be like in the middle of this whole transition.
(06:58):
I had a group of kids that did this podcast series when I was teaching fourth grade and they did interviews every,
every week or two and they put it on our website.
I mean,
it was really hard to get to,
but it was a podcast and they had,
we had an author come to our school and they interviewed him for the podcast.
And at the end of the interview,
he said,
wow,
he goes,
you guys are gonna,
you guys are gonna,
(07:19):
like,
I,
he said something like you guys are gonna really,
like have a show someday and they're like,
no,
we have a show like,
exactly.
Now.
That's right.
And I look at him like we,
I mean,
we just interviewed him for our show.
Exactly.
They're like,
dude,
where are you,
you know,
and their audience,
I mean,
and that's one of the things I think,
(07:39):
I,
since I've taught K to five audience,
when kids are older matters,
when kids are like six or seven,
like their classroom as an audience or their peers,
as an audience or their family,
as an audience is big.
You know what I mean?
They don't care if someone in Australia reads something but they really care if their friend is sitting next to them.
You know what I mean?
So,
(08:00):
so,
you know,
those kids had a show,
the show was for our school,
you know,
but they were like,
no,
we have a show.
So if that,
so if audience is a big part of literacy right now.
And as an aside,
I'll just say I was recently working with a group of librarians who,
one of them shared the story of this fifth grader that was at her school who couldn't wait to come show her that they had 30,000 tiktok followers as 1/5 grader who's not old enough to have a tiktok account by the way.
(08:34):
But still,
so it's like,
you know,
all this idea of audience then and even like when we think about the terms of service for these tools that all people,
all human beings use to present to an audience.
Like what are some of the like literacy skills that come to mind for you then that are really important for our learners living today?
(08:57):
Hm.
Well,
it's just,
I'm just like you're really good at these.
I'm like,
this is your area Jennifer.
Oh,
I mean,
OK,
so like let,
let me,
let me,
that's not like a question we planned or anything.
So I'm,
you know,
like just basing it on our conversation.
(09:17):
But I think,
well,
I just think about like the decisions that we make as content creators and then being able to apply that same understanding to the author of a picture book,
you know,
that there's choices that content creators make choices,
right?
And I feel like,
yes,
(09:37):
and I'm thinking like,
I'm thinking of like your work because I think it really digs down to like what it takes to like,
understand and be intentional about understanding.
But then like,
but I'm thinking about your work too,
like I'm thinking about your work around text sets and about how you pair text because con those creators of that content make choices in the punctuation in the line breaks and the images that they choose.
(10:05):
And that's there's a variety of literacy that are in that,
right?
Because you've got visual literacy,
you've got,
so I'm just,
I'm just thinking in that realm,
you know,
in that,
that's where my last I wrote our book about digital literacy.
And we really started thinking about like,
what does this mean for young kids?
Like we came down to three things and I'm trying,
I think I still agree with these three things.
(10:26):
We came down to like authenticity,
intentionality and connectedness and intentionality to me is like literacy,
like intentional,
like how you create,
how you consume,
how you,
you know,
who your audio,
like intentional decision making.
To me,
it was like the one thing that crosses all literacy all the time.
Yes,
(10:47):
I,
yes,
I haven't thought about all of that.
Like,
that's where I've been like,
and I think I'm still there but intentionality as it is what threads the literacy together.
So I love what you're saying right there.
And I think he's like,
hit on something like I,
I just,
my brain,
there are things sparking right now as you talk.
Number one,
I just love the fact that you said,
(11:07):
I think I still agree with this because a lot I know,
but that's,
that's the hallmark of a,
of a true learner and a scholar.
I mean,
that's what learners do is that we don't just solidify something in stone and never hear from it.
We learned,
right?
We're constant learning.
Like I just love that you said that.
So thank you for that.
Just like I haven't thought about this for a while.
(11:27):
I wonder if I just don't believe it.
No.
And then I love the,
I love that idea of intentionality being a cred that is common to all literacy.
Like I think,
can I please have that tattooed on something?
Because I think that's easier.
Yes.
I mean,
that is the thing that I always because I think curation is a literacy right now.
Like curation,
(11:48):
like,
uh it's huge.
Like there's a skill to that,
that is unbelievable and that we're using.
But it's intentional.
Like,
or else it's not curation,
even consumption.
Like if it's passive and not intentional,
it's not really literacy.
Well,
even if we are sort of passively scrolling,
you know,
through our friends or our kids are,
they are being able to constantly understand that all messages are constructed by someone there.
(12:14):
Even if we are we think or we don't feel a lot of intention in the way that we are consuming them.
They were created with intention and that message is absorbed by us in one way or another.
And keeping that in mind is important.
If we're really gonna be able to dissect things rather than if we're really gonna be able to respond smartly to thinking of ourselves to the audience that is in.
(12:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's,
it's like it's complex and yet it's also for me,
very thrilling and exciting to think about um the potential that our learners have to really,
I think affect change in the world because,
you know,
the internet has in some ways democratized expertise and which is good and bad,
(13:04):
you know,
but there,
yes,
but there's,
it's,
it's very empowering,
especially to young people in terms of sharing their voice.
And so it's thrilling and exciting,
but also complex and,
and sometimes a little heavy to carry and there is,
you said empowering,
I was thinking yesterday.
So,
like,
as a reading,
like,
nerd geek,
(13:24):
whatever.
I,
you know,
I've been reading a lot in the last 18 months about the pandemic and I was reading about the variant yesterday and I was like,
all of a sudden I was like,
wow,
like,
from a reading perspective,
like,
the vocabulary I've learned,
like,
what I can talk about now and like,
yeah,
I was like,
I don't know if that would have been possible before because I can find videos,
I can read like 12 sources.
(13:46):
I could follow 30.
I would listen to a lot of doctors talk daily with voca.
And I'm like,
I,
I like stopped for a minute thinking like from this is fascinating,
like if we weren't in a pandemic,
this is fascinating study.
Like how I've become a reader of like medicine without a starting from scratch in my home by myself.
Yes,
we all had.
(14:06):
I know like,
I'm like,
yeah,
like the fact that we have the tools to teach ourselves how to become literate in an area we weren't literate in.
And that's like,
I'm,
I think maybe that's that maybe we should record a separate video on this.
But I,
I feel like the potential for that like self development to develop your vocabulary to um also be a curator of resources and a network of people to go to on this particular topic.
(14:37):
All those things are in so many ways influenced by motivation and uh giving kids sort of the freedom to follow their interests,
you know.
So,
yes,
go ahead.
No,
go ahead.
No,
you go ahead.
You go ahead.
No,
I was just thinking like,
I would,
if I would have like a year and a half ago said I'm going to become a reader of like,
medical things.
(14:58):
I wouldn't have known,
you know what I mean?
I didn't do that but I was like,
wow,
like,
the consequence of this is fascinating.
Like,
and so what does that mean for kids who read about whatever?
Yeah,
exactly.
Like,
whatever,
because,
like,
just the synthesis that you have to do,
like the,
you know,
the reading 17 articles with 17 different headlines and like,
(15:18):
their work.
But I mean,
I just like the fact that we teach ourselves that,
you know,
that we,
I don't know,
like,
I've been home by myself in a pandemic and I became a reader.
I don't know,
I did the thing.
It's like,
but you're motivated to do that and for kids,
you know,
right.
For kids we sit them in front of,
you know,
basal readers and time how quickly they're going to be,
(15:41):
be able to,
you know,
get some of the words,
right,
if they speed read them,
you know,
but there's not a lot of motivation there for kids to actually learn the skills that are required to be literate,
you know,
across content areas.
So I think there's a lesson there,
there is all,
all of that like,
leads me to the uh like a question I really do need to ask is that,
(16:02):
you know,
you and I were both former classroom teachers and I know that,
you know,
a literacy in general,
that word,
there's a connotation there that links it very closely to the work of the classroom teacher and to the instructional code,
et cetera,
but not necessarily to the librarian,
you know,
and especially because I have to keep in mind that the,
(16:23):
the students reading or lists are watching this video aren't all public school librarians.
These are also public librarians,
these are also academic librarians.
So where do these folks fit in?
And I think they do,
I know you do too.
But where,
how,
what's the librarian's role then in helping today's kids be literate in the world we live in now.
(16:44):
I mean,
I think it's what it's always been,
I think it's,
you know,
connecting people with the resources and the,
the text.
And when I say text,
I,
I define text like as broadly as I define literacy.
And so we say that,
tell me what that means,
then what does text?
I mean,
I think text means anything that gives meaning.
So,
(17:04):
I mean,
you know,
for a while it was,
you know,
we moved from books to blog posts and websites that were all still text based and then I decided videos were part of text and then memes became part of text and then images and you know what I mean?
So I think it's anything that you make meaning from.
So,
you know,
the visual literacy piece,
(17:24):
I think.
So when we think about that in terms of the library,
and we think of the library as a place that,
you know,
connects people with texts um and,
and supports learners and supports thinking and supports independence.
I think it's the same thing.
We just have this like multitude of stuff now,
you know,
(17:45):
it's not just a book,
it's,
it's everything and it's people and it's connections and it's sets of resources.
And I mean,
and I don't know what that means,
like logistically,
but I think like,
I think of the library as like a space for learning maybe so that whether you're working with kindergartners or adults,
(18:10):
it's a space where those things can happen because the space and the resources are are there.
Yeah.
And I mean,
I don't,
I'm trying to think about what I think about that in a public library,
in space.
But I mean,
to me it's like the,
the,
the,
the mission is what matters more than like,
(18:33):
you know,
well,
I,
you know,
I think librarians of all stripes are conduits,
right?
Just exactly like what you're saying,
like there were connectors um to from uh a need or a question to resources and answers or sometimes even more questions,
you know,
to whatever is needed,
we connect.
(18:53):
And so I really think that that point is important,
Frankie that you've made about.
That's one of the things that we help kids do or I'm using kids,
but learners,
patrons,
et cetera um do to affect their literacy is connect them to resources.
But as we're talking,
I also,
I keep coming back to this idea of passion too,
(19:15):
especially in an interest and feeding that in a way that sometimes the classroom teacher just doesn't have the freedom to do simply because of scheduling constraints or testing requirements or all of those things,
you know,
and depending on how flexible their administration might be,
they don't always have the freedom to allow kids to just follow curiosities.
(19:39):
But librarians kind of do at least in,
in,
in some way,
even on a fixed schedule more so than the classroom teacher.
So I think there's that as well if what you were saying before is true.
And I do think it is that our motivation to want to learn about something fuels literacy.
(20:01):
And I feel like when you go back to like library,
like it's really what happens.
Like,
I'm trying to think because we just had our whole public library,
like every one of them's been redone and they're these beautiful,
amazing brand new meanings.
But like,
and this space is amazing,
like,
but I don't wanna to negate that.
Like,
they're fabulous,
but like,
I loved it before too.
Do you know what I mean?
So,
it's really what happens in there.
(20:22):
Do you know what I mean?
Like,
it's,
it's what happens inside yourself in that space.
Maybe.
So,
librarian,
like,
facilitates that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's really individual,
like,
it's just you by yourself sometimes learning and the librarian is the person who lets that happen.
(20:43):
Yeah.
You know,
and it might be like,
I don't know,
like I'm just thinking of all my librarians I've loved when I pop into the library and they all,
you know,
sometimes I was in the library totally quietly myself for hours and sometimes I needed,
I don't know,
I feel like it's what happens.
What you said makes me think a little bit to just think about this conversation through an equity lens too because um you know,
(21:10):
you mentioned,
you know,
sometimes it's just you by yourself,
like,
you know,
doing some of this exploration and research or just,
you know,
wondering by yourself.
And one of the,
the most important roles I believe that libraries have is to level the playing field so that all learners,
regardless of the resources they have at home,
whether we're talking about like basic need resources or even adult support resources or even a full tummy type of resources or whatever,
(21:39):
you know,
leveling the playing field so that all learners have the space and also the scaffolds they need for them to do that Yeah.
And so if we're saying that literacy is fueled by motivation and is a common thread throughout all literacy,
this intentionality,
(22:00):
then I feel like equity needs to be a piece of that too.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I feel like that's gonna be different for different spaces to that.
Like,
I feel like that's why it's hard to define,
you know,
I'm doing work now in Columbus with preschools and I just,
I feel like there's different assets and different needs on in every,
(22:22):
like if you look at a school,
if you look at a community,
whatever,
like you can't just like,
it's not a blanket thing,
you know,
where in the playing field might look different,
but it's,
that's the goal like it's to make sure everybody has what they need from like the standpoint.
So maybe then what we're also saying because I feel like we're just coming up with a,
(22:44):
you know,
like we're,
we're,
we're writing our own position statement.
But I feel like what we're also saying then is that for librarians to be able to affect literacy within their community,
whether that's a school community or a,
a public libraries community or whatever,
then they have to really know and understand that community.
Yes.
Like no doubt.
(23:04):
Like that to me,
I think is number one.
And I think,
and I think like,
OK,
so I was a librarian for four years in one elementary school and I was new to the school as the librarian.
So I wasn't part of the community when I started.
But like,
you go from like,
having to know the community to like being like the hub of the community.
Like,
I do think that regardless of like,
(23:26):
any of these things,
the library is this hub for the community.
And I just remember,
like,
I,
I don't know,
librarians know all this stuff they know,
like,
I mean,
it is like the place and I don't even think,
I don't even know that anybody like knows that except when you're the librarian like,
but,
but I mean,
it is such a,
(23:46):
it's such a center even even if it,
I don't,
even if consciously the school doesn't realize that.
Yeah.
And that's the thing is like,
I think that it has the potential,
like libraries have such the potential to be that.
But again,
we're back to this intentionality.
There has to be someone in that space who is doing the outreach to ensure that the school or the community knows and understands and also has so many has like multiple access points.
(24:21):
Like there's not just one way to interact with the library or engage with the library,
there's multiple access points that feel welcoming,
but also feel safe.
Yeah,
and enticing and all of that stuff.
So that's constant work because our community is always changing,
right?
Like what we do when you're made at work for the next year ever.
And you have to figure out like,
(24:41):
what,
what's safe for the community,
like,
not what you think is,
you know what I mean?
What you think is a good invitation but what is really what people are responding to?
Because I think like,
I went to the library with this vision and then,
you know,
you have,
it's like,
OK,
it's my vision.
That's what I figure it out and darn it.
Why aren't these people seeing my vision?
(25:02):
Right?
I don't,
you know,
then when you like start just doing what the community does or needs or wants,
then it's,
it's much you become part of the community.
Does that feel like?
Uh because one of the things we were talking about earlier before the,
before I hit record was that I how hard it is sometimes or how it can feel like a challenge regardless of what type of librarian you are to get others to,
(25:28):
to want to collaborate with you,
to feel like that's a good use of their time.
And,
and I say that I say that use that phrasing intentionally because time is finite and people feel there's so many demands for our time that we have to prioritize what we feel like,
you know,
to use the expression that the juice is worth the squeeze,
(25:50):
right?
Like we have to prioritize what we feel like we're gonna get the most value from,
right?
So in hearing you talk about this idea of getting to know the community and providing um some of the space and scaffolds to,
to ensure that all learners are able to develop those literacy skills.
(26:13):
Do you think there's potential there for collaborations with teachers or other community members?
Do you think that's a a segue to collaboration?
Yeah,
I feel like,
so I feel like and I might be jumping ahead but I feel like the issue is like,
I feel like my best collaboration didn't feel like we were collaborating because we didn't schedule it.
But somebody would come in at lunch and they would need something for like a half hour later and I would get like really irritated.
(26:39):
Like I'm like,
you need to plan better than that.
And then I realized I'm sure that made them feel very welcome.
But I,
I just,
I did not say that.
Do you know what I mean?
But I remember thinking if you would have like had a meeting with me last week,
I could have had a really good pile of books for you.
Like right now it's 12 30.
You want the book by one o'clock?
I'm not gonna be able to do this.
Well,
and you're gonna read the,
(26:59):
you're gonna just read this book and it might not be right.
So,
and so,
but then I realized that when somebody comes in the,
the library every Monday at 12 30 for five minutes to do that,
it's like the person that you buy your coffee from in the morning,
you build a relationship.
So I feel like that collaboration or when it's stressful for classroom teachers is when I go in and say,
(27:20):
hey,
let's plan a unit together.
Could I meet with you on Tuesday during your planning time?
Or instead if I just meet them when they come in for five minutes and then build a relationship over time,
like I didn't,
I wasn't thinking long term.
The first couple of times those people came in,
I was thinking about wanting to do this perfect book stack for them or wanting to collaborate in my head.
(27:42):
But like when I started just like giving them what they needed in the moment without judgment,
you know,
and then the relationship came from that and they'd come back and we talk a little bit about the book and we talk about a new one,
but it was like five minutes a week over time,
which is very different than asking somebody to sit for 15 minutes.
(28:03):
So like,
I feel like the collaboration that's best is that,
that happens naturally when the relationship is there instead of like the forced,
I agree.
And I,
and I wouldn't count like I,
if somebody,
you know,
if I was filling out my teacher evaluation on when I collaborate,
I don't think I could write down those like five minute things.
But over time,
(28:24):
that was a lot of time we spent together figuring out which books made sense for those classrooms.
Yeah.
And so when I knew in once a week I'd be thinking ahead,
you know.
Right.
Right.
Through collaboration.
But it absolutely was schools and PLC.
You know what I mean?
Like it,
like for me,
the learning was,
(28:44):
I had to start with where people I,
I couldn't for,
you can't force relationships.
No.
And,
and you go ahead,
go ahead and that's just what's really hard as a new librarian I think is that there's so many relationships to have and so many kids and adults and,
and you know,
whether public or,
(29:04):
or school and you can't rush that,
you can't rush building relationships.
So I realized after the first year,
I remember thinking I hadn't accomplished much the first year in the library and I realized I had seen every class about the amount of time if I was a classroom teacher that I would have spent with them the first month of school.
And I was like,
oh,
like,
and I'm trying to,
and I know better than to speed up the first month of school.
(29:27):
And so,
you know,
I just,
I think we in order to collaborate,
rushing relationships was probably my biggest like,
mistake.
The first time I did work like that,
like trying to,
you've said so many things I think are important here first is just think about all the different,
like things that,
that teacher could do with that five minutes or whoever walks into your library,
(29:50):
there are lots of other demands that are competing for that five minutes.
So the five minutes that they are gifting to you,
which they are,
you know what I mean is,
is all they have,
maybe all they have to give and they're prioritizing you over something else.
So that feels to me like that,
that we should assume that the need then is urgent,
(30:11):
you know,
like,
it's not like a afterthought.
It's not a,
it's not a product of core planning.
It's really just,
this is an urgent need and they've come to me.
So that's like a level of trust there if we can reframe that because I,
I have no,
I mean,
no,
you're right because I felt the same way.
No,
I think you're right because there's definitely,
(30:31):
I've definitely had librarian experiences where I'd go into the library when school was closed.
So I didn't have like,
because it wasn't like gonna be a good relationship like Right.
Right.
Or I'm like,
you know,
like talking to somebody while they're standing at the xerox machine trying to empty my mailbox and going,
oh,
by the way,
can you pull a card of books for me on this topic?
You know,
you know,
like that,
(30:51):
you know,
so it's like I,
I get it like also that one of the things I learned and this was,
this came from that same thing actually is I I'm a buyer of books.
Like,
I never,
I didn't start my career relying on the school library.
So,
until I was a librarian,
I didn't realize how much teachers relied on the school library.
(31:13):
And then all of a sudden I was like,
oh,
like the books I have on display or the books you're gonna use.
So,
if I'm really smart about that,
you're gonna find really good books and be really happy.
Like,
but I didn't realize like,
the teachers that came in at lunch,
they expected to find the resources they needed,
which was,
you're right.
Like,
that's a trust thing,
like,
you know,
and so I realized,
(31:34):
like,
the impact that picking a book from the library has and then bring it back to your kids.
Like,
the impact in a three minute visit to the library could be huge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Over time and then,
you know,
like for your evaluation or whatever else,
you just write it up the way you have to because there's a couple of things there too that I want to point out that you said that I thought were really meaningful is that um I,
(32:00):
one thing and,
and you did it too while you were talking is that I think teachers are not really great at like sharing the things that they're good at,
right?
But they hyper focus on the things that they feel like they could do better.
Like,
and you do the same thing,
like,
and I do it too.
Like,
you know,
let me tell you about this thing that I do.
I do that.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so like in those conversations,
(32:22):
if as librarians,
if we can,
like,
train ourselves as listeners to be really active listeners,
then we will hear the needs.
Like we will hear the things that the teachers are saying this,
you know,
this is something that didn't go well or I wish I had time for this or I wish I to me like then that's your collaboration entry point because it is about being able to help them do better in ways that they really want to do better.
(32:52):
Right.
Yes,
I agree.
Like I think I went in with a vision of myself like I said,
and really like once I,
like once that happened,
I started listening to teachers and with the school,
I was like,
oh yeah,
you don't know me,
I don't know you my first year as a library and I'll confess the same thing I made this beautiful Google calendar that was connected to a Google form.
(33:16):
And my first year people would come in and say,
can I do such and such and say,
well,
you have to fill out the form and no one ever did.
And then I would just be sitting in the library alone,
right?
And so what I learned after that first year was I fill out the form like I wanted the form to be able to collect some data about who I was working with.
(33:36):
So I could,
like,
see who I wasn't working with.
Like that was kind of,
but I,
that form was a barrier for a lot of teachers,
for me to actually be able to work with them.
Even though a four question,
Google form doesn't seem like a heavy lift when you're already carrying way too much.
That is a bridge to Yeah.
(33:57):
Yeah.
So I know exactly what you're saying.
It's like as librarians,
if we want to help affect literacy for our communities,
then we have to start by being,
we have to practice some of those skills ourselves and listen to the messages that we're being given and then react,
you know,
appropriately to that and listen,
(34:20):
you're right.
Like listening for like years.
Yes,
it does take over time,
takes a long time.
It really does because you're right.
Those relationships are so important because then it's like,
you know,
there's something,
there's a,
I'm gonna get this wrong which I know my students will appreciate.
But there's some kind of phrasing in marketing that's like,
(34:42):
it's,
it's like a metaphor that marketers use that's related to boxing.
So I'm really going around here,
I've gone from libraries to marketing to boxing one sentence.
But the idea behind it is like,
I guess there's a boxing term that's like jab jab jab hook,
like you have to jab so many times before you hook right.
And in marketing,
(35:02):
they changed that to give,
give,
give,
ask,
like you have to give so many times before you can ask.
And I think for librarians who want to do more than just circulate books randomly to kids who come in on a schedule or whatever,
who want to really affect literacy rates.
We have to do that listening and provide,
(35:25):
provide,
provide.
And then if we need that teacher or whoever to help us fill out some form that proves we've been collaborating or do whatever.
I think they're more likely to do that for us.
Right?
Would you say that's true?
Yes,
because then you know each other and you like,
yeah,
I mean,
I think that because on your colleagues,
like I think to expect it before you know people.
(35:48):
Yeah,
it's,
that's that,
that trust,
right?
That,
that because then because you're doing it because you both probably want it done too.
Do you know what I mean?
It's not just for you,
it's because you both want to document it.
Well,
I feel like,
you know,
it's like for my students who are at various points in their journey,
(36:09):
some of for some students,
this will be their first class in the program for others.
It will be their last,
you know,
like it's um they get to take it out whenever they want.
Um One common thread that I see uh throughout is feeling like they've learned so much in the program,
but they're not really certain how it actually applies in like the real world,
(36:32):
you know.
And so I love this conversation that is uh sort of,
uh it's about literacy,
but at the same time,
like,
focusing on how do we actually get to the point where we can have those,
you know,
do that,
that collaborative work with teachers.
Because without that,
I,
we,
we can't get to the point where we're affecting literacy.
(36:53):
I mean,
the other thing I think was huge for me both as a teacher and as a librarian when it came to collaboration.
And I remember this,
I want to say it was right when we got laptops and the kindergartners in the first grade had to learn how to login and they had like those 20 they had those passwords that like were just a lot of letters and numbers and other letters and numbers.
(37:13):
And I remember for a couple of years we did the logins in the library like we talked to in,
we made the login card we duplicated the and,
and I,
I mean,
it was hard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My number kind of work.
Yeah.
But that was the barrier to the kids using that tool in the classroom.
(37:33):
And really as a classroom teacher,
the first six weeks of kindergarten,
you can't do that,
you know.
And so I,
I like it in the long run for the school and even for the library,
those kids knowing how to log in and putting that time in,
you know,
and we had the flexibility in the library that because we're not teaching them how to read it,
you know,
we're not in charge of that.
(37:54):
So,
you know,
in the long run doing that in the library made sense for everyone.
And so it was collaborative and that we were,
we were helping take away a barrier that was keeping kids from some resource because it,
it wasn't manageable in the class.
(38:15):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think we can do the same thing for teachers like you are,
as you said,
you're removing a barrier for the kids,
but you're also removing a barrier for the adults,
right?
You also said something in there that I wanna touch on because I think this is an important part of this conversation before we wrap it up is um you know,
(38:38):
you said that we in the library,
we,
we have a little bit more freedom because we're not teaching kids how to read and you know,
you taught elementary through sixth grade.
I've taught middle and high school,
right?
And college.
Right.
So we're covering all ages,
you know,
all of the grade spans here.
(38:59):
And I will tell you that there are kids in every single one of those grades spans,
there are learners in every single one of those grade fans who are still learning how to read.
And so it doesn't matter what,
you know,
like,
grade,
their teachers are still teaching them how to read.
Yes.
So,
with that in mind,
if we're not teaching kids how to read.
Ok.
I wanna,
(39:20):
I wanna rephrase that,
that we're not the,
it's not our,
like,
that's not our main responsibility.
Like we're not the ones filling out that form to make sure they passed the third grade test.
Like,
it's,
that's not on us.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
And we're not teaching them how to decode phoning or we're not teaching them how to decode actually teaching them the how.
But I think we're teaching them,
(39:41):
OK,
I mean,
I think we're teaching them ways to be literate.
I think we're teaching them lifelong literacy.
I think we're teaching them the behaviors.
I think we're teaching them all of like what it means to be literate.
But I,
but I think that's different and teaching them how to read.
But I think we,
(40:01):
I think we teach them some how tos.
I,
yeah,
I mean,
this is interesting because I'm like,
and my second book is called still learning to read.
So I think everyone's still learning to read.
Like I'm like,
I'm so like,
I like my little brownie point.
Like men,
would you say one of the things that I say a lot?
(40:22):
And I wanna see if you have pushed back on this is that I would say that while we don't teach kids or learners how to read,
we teach them how to be readers.
Yes.
And so in the same way that we might not teach them how to,
like,
we're not teaching them content like a discipline like science or math or whatever.
(40:43):
We teach them to be readers to be thinkers,
to be learners.
Like,
so we are teaching more dispositions as opposed.
Does that make sense or do you feel?
And I would,
I would say more than just reader,
we teach them to be literate again because it's more,
it's not just readers,
like we teach them how to be learners.
(41:05):
Mhm You know,
so yeah,
and I feel like they can,
it's a really authentic space to do that.
You know,
it's not the pressure of the pressure of all the standardized testing and all of that.
It so it could be a really authentic.
Yeah,
I mean,
I agree.
I there's no pushback on that but it's so interesting to think about like,
(41:28):
because I do think they learn to read,
I think there is,
they do do some learning to read in the library.
But well,
one feels the other,
don't you think like the,
the better able you are like the more confidence you feel in your vocabulary or your ability to decode,
then the more motivated you are to explore different types of texts that might feel a little bit more challenging,
(41:51):
et cetera.
So that,
that's the skill to fuels the disposition.
But at the same time,
the more pleasure and joy and the way,
the more that a reading affects your identity is who you are,
the more that's gonna affect your ability to decode and to have some stamina when that gets hard.
So the two things inform each other.
(42:13):
And I do think,
I don't know if this happened with you,
but I had to let go of some of my reading teacher things.
You know what I mean?
Like,
kids would turn in a book.
I remember talking to my friend who was a public school library and kids,
like,
my first couple of months would turn in books with like a bookmark in the middle.
Like,
they hadn't finished it.
I'm like,
well,
she's never finishing a book.
She's like,
you gotta let go of that.
Like,
how can I let go of that?
Like,
I'm a reading teacher and then I was like,
(42:34):
ok,
like,
I can't,
like,
do that.
I had to really,
and again,
it went back to relationships.
I don't have a relationship with this kid to go.
Why didn't you finish the book?
And you don't know if you wanted to ever come back to the library and you don't have that relationship with kids,
like you do in the classroom until you get a couple of years with them.
And then all of a sudden you have a but,
(42:55):
but that was huge for me.
Like,
I had to,
like,
go with some of my reading teacher me a little bit to be,
to be like that,
to make sure I was supporting their empowered reading life.
I love everything about this conversation frankly.
And I'm like,
now I'm like,
I'm gonna be up all night thinking about all these things.
I'm like,
wait,
I don't know.
Well,
(43:15):
that will be our next conversation.
That would be interesting.
I'm like,
we need to start our podcast now.
We just,
we just,
we need to be doing this on a regular basis,
I think.
But I,
what I've heard us say like what I've heard come out of this,
right?
Is that literacy for the digital,
you know,
kids learners living in the digital age is about the understanding that all messages,
(43:41):
media,
et cetera,
things that you take meaning from are constructed.
So there's the meaning that is intended and then there's the meaning that we create et cetera.
But understanding that those messages are constructed is a core of all literacy.
Also,
there I heard us say that there is an intentionality around literacy that is a thread that underpins all of them.
(44:06):
Um especially when we're talking about our own creation process as um a literate individual.
And then I also heard us say that for librarians,
then,
then one of our most important roles is to build relationships and trust with our community and an understanding of our community so that we can identify their needs um so that we can swoop in and save the day and help to affect their literacy.
(44:34):
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And that we have to,
um,
I,
I think I didn't hear us say this but it's something I'm taking away from our conversation is that we have to let go,
maybe of some of our,
um,
uh,
deeply held identity around literacy if we have that before.
(44:54):
But also recognize that all aspects of literacy are important and inform one another that it's not about one being the key,
one thing being the key.
Right.
Yeah.
Wow,
you're good at this.
No,
we're smart.
Look at,
look at this.
I'm like,
wow,
like,
yeah,
it's just,
yes,
I'm just,
wow.
(45:15):
Yeah.
Like,
it's so interesting,
like,
the way literacy has changed is really,
and I haven't really thought about it like this deeply for,
you know,
I don't know,
during the pandemic,
I don't know if I've thought about literacy and how it's changed and I'm just like,
it's just so interesting to see like the place we are and what's possible and I,
(45:35):
I don't know,
like relationships and all the,
all the stuff that goes with it.
And,
you know,
the other thing I think is librarians don't get like the,
the kudos that,
like,
you get as a classroom teacher sometimes,
you know what I mean?
Like,
the real change is so subtle and slow and you just become part of the culture and,
and,
and not,
you know,
like I've been in schools with the librarian,
(45:56):
the school that is reading,
like,
they know every book and they're huge readers and everyone just takes it for granted.
Well,
that happened because the librarian is amazing.
You know what I mean?
And now,
like,
you build a school culture like that and then it just is.
And so I think that there's like a beauty to that once you go,
like,
oh my gosh,
like,
look like that.
It's not visible,
(46:16):
you know,
it's,
it's not the same as like being in the classroom and,
and I don't know,
it's not the same and it does,
it feels different and the,
the,
the change is slower and the change is different and bigger.
So I,
yeah,
it's uh it's in,
you know,
you don't have to convince me about the magic of obviously,
(46:37):
of librarians.
But I,
what you're saying,
I feel that so deeply because,
uh,
you know,
as you and I are talking right now,
who knows what the world will look like?
12 months from now?
We certainly couldn't have predicted what it would look like 12 months ago.
Right.
Right.
But our world feels more divided than ever and the gaps between those who have and those who do not,
(47:01):
those who are lifted up and those who are pushed down,
those who are amplified versus those who are silenced,
those gaps are wider and wider and wider.
And to me at the heart,
the primary role of the librarian is to bridge,
bridge those gaps and we do that through reading and books and technology and all that other stuff.
(47:22):
But really,
our role is to bridge gaps.
You know,
libraries are the last bastion of egalitarianism in this world that they're so fundamentally important to our society.
Right.
So,
and we kind of,
as you said,
take them for granted,
we really,
really,
we have good ones.
(47:43):
You know what I mean?
You really don't even think twice.
You just have a,
you just have a really great library which is until we Yeah,
exactly.
So we have a bad one and then we just the library in position is what we need part of the world.
Like it's not a good library to be part of how the world is all the time everywhere.
I know.
So with that in mind,
(48:04):
how,
what would you like?
What advice would you give to my students moving forward?
And where can they reach out to you on social media if they would like to?
So that's a two fold out to be anywhere?
Frankie Sier,
Frankie Sipper,
Frankie.
And I'm text sets on Instagram.
How I would say,
(48:24):
I don't know,
just like,
hm,
I mean,
enjoy being part of the community,
I think in a different role,
I think instead of like putting pressure on yourself to do it the way you envisioned it is probably the big thing.
And I think,
I mean,
we have a job where,
like,
we get to read for,
like,
our jobs,
(48:45):
like,
take advantage of that.
Like,
like I was talking books the other day and my husband was,
like,
you really know books.
I'm like,
well,
that's my job.
Like,
I know that's really,
I,
I know I'm very impressive but that's like what I do.
Um,
but like,
we have this joyful piece too that people count on us for that.
So,
like,
we can't negate that either.
Like I think we can think about all these things about literacy too.
(49:05):
But I think knowing books and resources is kind of a fun part of our job that brings us joy and brings people joy.
So,
I mean,
I don't know,
I think we just have to slow down to do the job well and build relationship.
I,
I mean,
when you said bridges,
I,
I went back to relationships because we bridged people.
I mean,
the,
the relationship piece is the connection piece is it,
(49:26):
it really is because you can't do the other stuff without them.
You really can't rush it.
And I do think the that is probably my biggest like take time to become part of a community before you rush to decide what to do.
Do you know what I mean?
Like,
yeah,
I love that.
I love that.
(49:47):
So fun.
This is,
thank you so so much.
I'm gonna stop recording.
So my students.
Yes.
Thank you can get on with their lives.
Um,
but thank you all,
I look forward to your discussion of this conversation this week and to hearing what you have to say in response to what Frankie and I chatted about.
Hi,
everyone and welcome to a Ru 5 15 Voices of Literacy conversation.
This week,
we're gonna be talking to my friend and mentor.
Um,
and someone who has been sort of an educational hero to me for many,
many years,
Frankie Siverson.
Frankie Frankie.
Thank you so much for joining us today.
(00:37):
So excited to be here.
Yay.
This is gonna be so much fun.
Would you mind starting by just introducing yourself for our students?
Yeah,
for sure.
Um,
I'm Frankie Siverson.
I have been since I was a classroom teacher for 33 years and by classroom teacher.
I mean,
like I taught kindergarten through fifth grade.
I was a school librarian in elementary school for about four years.
(00:58):
I did reading intervention.
I was a literacy coach.
So I guess I was school based for 33 years and now we're doing literacy consulting work.
My big love is reading in grades 3 to 6.
That stage where they've learned how to read,
but we want to keep them as readers.
Um,
so I'm really interested in that and I'm interested in like,
really thinking about books and how we use those in the classroom.
(01:19):
So,
that's one of my kind of as a,
as a hobby.
But,
yeah,
a hobby and,
like,
you know,
what you think,
live,
breathe 24 7.
But I think all of that and then I just finished up,
I was president of NCTE National Council of Teachers of English,
which was amazing.
I just learned a lot and got to work with amazing people and,
(01:39):
you know,
experience things in it,
you know,
understanding literacy in the,
in the country in a way that I didn't before.
So that was fun.
And you've written like 14 books.
I have written some books and it's funny because every time I write a book,
it's about reading at grade 3 to 6.
So,
yeah,
what your book about?
I like reading at grade 3 to 6.
But yeah,
and most of my work is really like focusing on the books and the text and the digital text and like what the stuff is of reading,
(02:06):
you know,
how that's why I knew that you were the person I wanted to talk to for this week's module.
Um because this week's module really focuses on the idea of what literacy is over the course of the semester,
we're gonna look at 14 different types of literacy and,
and,
and we kind of define literacy a little loosely in that regard.
(02:28):
But um one of the things that we look at this week is nctes position statement on literacy.
And I guess I I just,
if we could spend some time just kind of unpacking what an a literacy is,
especially right now,
you know,
as we record this is 2021.
But so in this year and beyond,
what does that mean to be literate?
(02:49):
What is the literacy?
What's your opinion on that?
What's my opinion on that?
Well,
it's interesting.
So you brought up the ncte definition.
And so when I was on the N TT board years ago,
I was on the committee to write that first one and I wanna say that was like 2009,
I maybe,
maybe.
Um and I was like a K one teacher at the time and I was so anti technology,
(03:11):
like,
I was,
the technology I'd seen was like,
very like skill and drill and it was very,
I don't know,
just not anything worth my time.
And so I remember like,
kind of kicking and screaming,
like,
I've teach kids how to read,
like,
I don't want this and then all of a sudden,
I don't know what happened in that committee,
but I started seeing like the possibilities of technology and the ways technology has have actually changed what it means to be literate.
(03:36):
And then I was like,
all in,
but I didn't go in all in.
Do you know what I mean?
Like,
I,
so I understand the hesitation if you don't really think about what is literacy,
like,
because there's so much bad technology out there that the technology,
that's not the technology that changed what it means to be literate.
You know,
the other and the other piece for me,
(03:58):
I feel like when I started teaching writing workshop was,
like,
fabulous.
Like,
fabulous is my favorite thing.
Um,
but you had to work,
like,
as a teacher,
you had to,
like,
you know,
go to mcdonald's and see if they'd hang up your kids writing or go to the newspaper and hope that they publish one letter a year to the editor.
There was no audience.
And like,
all of a sudden now,
like,
social media has become like this,
(04:19):
I'm like,
we have an a,
like our kids are doing this what we like,
we went,
you know,
building the building to get our kids writing hung up and like,
they have this authentic audience.
And so the ways that,
that literacy has changed for our kids,
just that they're in their natural world is unbelievable.
And so just the ways that they're using it,
you know,
(04:39):
as I think about 33 years,
like this all happened in my career,
which is,
makes me feel a little different.
I'm right there with you.
I,
I mean,
I'm right there with you.
When I first started teaching,
there were no computers in the classroom.
There was,
yeah,
exactly.
Exactly.
You know,
like 100 years ago we're starting to sound like those old ladies that we feel like we first started teaching.
(05:03):
But it's true,
you know,
it is true when we really have watched the entire revolution of this.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I love what you're saying about audience too because,
you know,
I think there's even an ongoing evolution in that as well because so many of our,
we think about literacy a lot in terms of the consumption end of it,
(05:25):
the being able to decode text and make meaning from it,
the ability to have conversation around the ability to make new meaning from text.
All of that,
talk about literacy in that way.
But there's a whole other layer to the creation side of literacy and our kids.
Now,
whether we're talking about working with teens in a public library space or even the children's room in a public library space or we're talking about school librarians or even academic librarians to some degree,
(05:55):
the the young people we work with are all content creators in some capacity.
Some of whom actually really strive to be a content creator.
Like,
do you remember from like when I was a classroom teacher,
all of my kids wanted to be NBA stars.
They all you talked about what their like dream career was.
They all wanted to play ball for a living,
(06:17):
you know.
Oh yeah.
But now you talk to a lot of kids and they want to be youtubers,
they want to be Instagram influencers.
So the idea of being content creators is also aspirational.
It's not just something I have them.
Yeah.
So there's like,
there's a lot of layers to what it means and they already can be like,
(06:37):
I feel like it's,
I feel like before,
if they wanted to be an author,
they had to wait till that book got published.
You know what I mean?
Where now they know they can have a youtube channel when they're seven.
Yeah.
It's like there's this,
their class,
it's not like they can do this later.
I remember,
jeez,
this was kind of in the midst of all like,
be like in the middle of this whole transition.
(06:58):
I had a group of kids that did this podcast series when I was teaching fourth grade and they did interviews every,
every week or two and they put it on our website.
I mean,
it was really hard to get to,
but it was a podcast and they had,
we had an author come to our school and they interviewed him for the podcast.
And at the end of the interview,
he said,
wow,
he goes,
you guys are gonna,
you guys are gonna,
(07:19):
like,
I,
he said something like you guys are gonna really,
like have a show someday and they're like,
no,
we have a show like,
exactly.
Now.
That's right.
And I look at him like we,
I mean,
we just interviewed him for our show.
Exactly.
They're like,
dude,
where are you,
you know,
and their audience,
I mean,
and that's one of the things I think,
(07:39):
I,
since I've taught K to five audience,
when kids are older matters,
when kids are like six or seven,
like their classroom as an audience or their peers,
as an audience or their family,
as an audience is big.
You know what I mean?
They don't care if someone in Australia reads something but they really care if their friend is sitting next to them.
You know what I mean?
So,
(08:00):
so,
you know,
those kids had a show,
the show was for our school,
you know,
but they were like,
no,
we have a show.
So if that,
so if audience is a big part of literacy right now.
And as an aside,
I'll just say I was recently working with a group of librarians who,
one of them shared the story of this fifth grader that was at her school who couldn't wait to come show her that they had 30,000 tiktok followers as 1/5 grader who's not old enough to have a tiktok account by the way.
(08:34):
But still,
so it's like,
you know,
all this idea of audience then and even like when we think about the terms of service for these tools that all people,
all human beings use to present to an audience.
Like what are some of the like literacy skills that come to mind for you then that are really important for our learners living today?
(08:57):
Hm.
Well,
it's just,
I'm just like you're really good at these.
I'm like,
this is your area Jennifer.
Oh,
I mean,
OK,
so like let,
let me,
let me,
that's not like a question we planned or anything.
So I'm,
you know,
like just basing it on our conversation.
(09:17):
But I think,
well,
I just think about like the decisions that we make as content creators and then being able to apply that same understanding to the author of a picture book,
you know,
that there's choices that content creators make choices,
right?
And I feel like,
yes,
(09:37):
and I'm thinking like,
I'm thinking of like your work because I think it really digs down to like what it takes to like,
understand and be intentional about understanding.
But then like,
but I'm thinking about your work too,
like I'm thinking about your work around text sets and about how you pair text because con those creators of that content make choices in the punctuation in the line breaks and the images that they choose.
(10:05):
And that's there's a variety of literacy that are in that,
right?
Because you've got visual literacy,
you've got,
so I'm just,
I'm just thinking in that realm,
you know,
in that,
that's where my last I wrote our book about digital literacy.
And we really started thinking about like,
what does this mean for young kids?
Like we came down to three things and I'm trying,
I think I still agree with these three things.
(10:26):
We came down to like authenticity,
intentionality and connectedness and intentionality to me is like literacy,
like intentional,
like how you create,
how you consume,
how you,
you know,
who your audio,
like intentional decision making.
To me,
it was like the one thing that crosses all literacy all the time.
Yes,
(10:47):
I,
yes,
I haven't thought about all of that.
Like,
that's where I've been like,
and I think I'm still there but intentionality as it is what threads the literacy together.
So I love what you're saying right there.
And I think he's like,
hit on something like I,
I just,
my brain,
there are things sparking right now as you talk.
Number one,
I just love the fact that you said,
(11:07):
I think I still agree with this because a lot I know,
but that's,
that's the hallmark of a,
of a true learner and a scholar.
I mean,
that's what learners do is that we don't just solidify something in stone and never hear from it.
We learned,
right?
We're constant learning.
Like I just love that you said that.
So thank you for that.
Just like I haven't thought about this for a while.
(11:27):
I wonder if I just don't believe it.
No.
And then I love the,
I love that idea of intentionality being a cred that is common to all literacy.
Like I think,
can I please have that tattooed on something?
Because I think that's easier.
Yes.
I mean,
that is the thing that I always because I think curation is a literacy right now.
Like curation,
(11:48):
like,
uh it's huge.
Like there's a skill to that,
that is unbelievable and that we're using.
But it's intentional.
Like,
or else it's not curation,
even consumption.
Like if it's passive and not intentional,
it's not really literacy.
Well,
even if we are sort of passively scrolling,
you know,
through our friends or our kids are,
they are being able to constantly understand that all messages are constructed by someone there.
(12:14):
Even if we are we think or we don't feel a lot of intention in the way that we are consuming them.
They were created with intention and that message is absorbed by us in one way or another.
And keeping that in mind is important.
If we're really gonna be able to dissect things rather than if we're really gonna be able to respond smartly to thinking of ourselves to the audience that is in.
(12:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's,
it's like it's complex and yet it's also for me,
very thrilling and exciting to think about um the potential that our learners have to really,
I think affect change in the world because,
you know,
the internet has in some ways democratized expertise and which is good and bad,
(13:04):
you know,
but there,
yes,
but there's,
it's,
it's very empowering,
especially to young people in terms of sharing their voice.
And so it's thrilling and exciting,
but also complex and,
and sometimes a little heavy to carry and there is,
you said empowering,
I was thinking yesterday.
So,
like,
as a reading,
like,
nerd geek,
(13:24):
whatever.
I,
you know,
I've been reading a lot in the last 18 months about the pandemic and I was reading about the variant yesterday and I was like,
all of a sudden I was like,
wow,
like,
from a reading perspective,
like,
the vocabulary I've learned,
like,
what I can talk about now and like,
yeah,
I was like,
I don't know if that would have been possible before because I can find videos,
I can read like 12 sources.
(13:46):
I could follow 30.
I would listen to a lot of doctors talk daily with voca.
And I'm like,
I,
I like stopped for a minute thinking like from this is fascinating,
like if we weren't in a pandemic,
this is fascinating study.
Like how I've become a reader of like medicine without a starting from scratch in my home by myself.
Yes,
we all had.
(14:06):
I know like,
I'm like,
yeah,
like the fact that we have the tools to teach ourselves how to become literate in an area we weren't literate in.
And that's like,
I'm,
I think maybe that's that maybe we should record a separate video on this.
But I,
I feel like the potential for that like self development to develop your vocabulary to um also be a curator of resources and a network of people to go to on this particular topic.
(14:37):
All those things are in so many ways influenced by motivation and uh giving kids sort of the freedom to follow their interests,
you know.
So,
yes,
go ahead.
No,
go ahead.
No,
you go ahead.
You go ahead.
No,
I was just thinking like,
I would,
if I would have like a year and a half ago said I'm going to become a reader of like,
medical things.
(14:58):
I wouldn't have known,
you know what I mean?
I didn't do that but I was like,
wow,
like,
the consequence of this is fascinating.
Like,
and so what does that mean for kids who read about whatever?
Yeah,
exactly.
Like,
whatever,
because,
like,
just the synthesis that you have to do,
like the,
you know,
the reading 17 articles with 17 different headlines and like,
(15:18):
their work.
But I mean,
I just like the fact that we teach ourselves that,
you know,
that we,
I don't know,
like,
I've been home by myself in a pandemic and I became a reader.
I don't know,
I did the thing.
It's like,
but you're motivated to do that and for kids,
you know,
right.
For kids we sit them in front of,
you know,
basal readers and time how quickly they're going to be,
(15:41):
be able to,
you know,
get some of the words,
right,
if they speed read them,
you know,
but there's not a lot of motivation there for kids to actually learn the skills that are required to be literate,
you know,
across content areas.
So I think there's a lesson there,
there is all,
all of that like,
leads me to the uh like a question I really do need to ask is that,
(16:02):
you know,
you and I were both former classroom teachers and I know that,
you know,
a literacy in general,
that word,
there's a connotation there that links it very closely to the work of the classroom teacher and to the instructional code,
et cetera,
but not necessarily to the librarian,
you know,
and especially because I have to keep in mind that the,
(16:23):
the students reading or lists are watching this video aren't all public school librarians.
These are also public librarians,
these are also academic librarians.
So where do these folks fit in?
And I think they do,
I know you do too.
But where,
how,
what's the librarian's role then in helping today's kids be literate in the world we live in now.
(16:44):
I mean,
I think it's what it's always been,
I think it's,
you know,
connecting people with the resources and the,
the text.
And when I say text,
I,
I define text like as broadly as I define literacy.
And so we say that,
tell me what that means,
then what does text?
I mean,
I think text means anything that gives meaning.
So,
(17:04):
I mean,
you know,
for a while it was,
you know,
we moved from books to blog posts and websites that were all still text based and then I decided videos were part of text and then memes became part of text and then images and you know what I mean?
So I think it's anything that you make meaning from.
So,
you know,
the visual literacy piece,
(17:24):
I think.
So when we think about that in terms of the library,
and we think of the library as a place that,
you know,
connects people with texts um and,
and supports learners and supports thinking and supports independence.
I think it's the same thing.
We just have this like multitude of stuff now,
you know,
(17:45):
it's not just a book,
it's,
it's everything and it's people and it's connections and it's sets of resources.
And I mean,
and I don't know what that means,
like logistically,
but I think like,
I think of the library as like a space for learning maybe so that whether you're working with kindergartners or adults,
(18:10):
it's a space where those things can happen because the space and the resources are are there.
Yeah.
And I mean,
I don't,
I'm trying to think about what I think about that in a public library,
in space.
But I mean,
to me it's like the,
the,
the,
the mission is what matters more than like,
(18:33):
you know,
well,
I,
you know,
I think librarians of all stripes are conduits,
right?
Just exactly like what you're saying,
like there were connectors um to from uh a need or a question to resources and answers or sometimes even more questions,
you know,
to whatever is needed,
we connect.
(18:53):
And so I really think that that point is important,
Frankie that you've made about.
That's one of the things that we help kids do or I'm using kids,
but learners,
patrons,
et cetera um do to affect their literacy is connect them to resources.
But as we're talking,
I also,
I keep coming back to this idea of passion too,
(19:15):
especially in an interest and feeding that in a way that sometimes the classroom teacher just doesn't have the freedom to do simply because of scheduling constraints or testing requirements or all of those things,
you know,
and depending on how flexible their administration might be,
they don't always have the freedom to allow kids to just follow curiosities.
(19:39):
But librarians kind of do at least in,
in,
in some way,
even on a fixed schedule more so than the classroom teacher.
So I think there's that as well if what you were saying before is true.
And I do think it is that our motivation to want to learn about something fuels literacy.
(20:01):
And I feel like when you go back to like library,
like it's really what happens.
Like,
I'm trying to think because we just had our whole public library,
like every one of them's been redone and they're these beautiful,
amazing brand new meanings.
But like,
and this space is amazing,
like,
but I don't wanna to negate that.
Like,
they're fabulous,
but like,
I loved it before too.
Do you know what I mean?
So,
it's really what happens in there.
(20:22):
Do you know what I mean?
Like,
it's,
it's what happens inside yourself in that space.
Maybe.
So,
librarian,
like,
facilitates that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's really individual,
like,
it's just you by yourself sometimes learning and the librarian is the person who lets that happen.
(20:43):
Yeah.
You know,
and it might be like,
I don't know,
like I'm just thinking of all my librarians I've loved when I pop into the library and they all,
you know,
sometimes I was in the library totally quietly myself for hours and sometimes I needed,
I don't know,
I feel like it's what happens.
What you said makes me think a little bit to just think about this conversation through an equity lens too because um you know,
(21:10):
you mentioned,
you know,
sometimes it's just you by yourself,
like,
you know,
doing some of this exploration and research or just,
you know,
wondering by yourself.
And one of the,
the most important roles I believe that libraries have is to level the playing field so that all learners,
regardless of the resources they have at home,
whether we're talking about like basic need resources or even adult support resources or even a full tummy type of resources or whatever,
(21:39):
you know,
leveling the playing field so that all learners have the space and also the scaffolds they need for them to do that Yeah.
And so if we're saying that literacy is fueled by motivation and is a common thread throughout all literacy,
this intentionality,
(22:00):
then I feel like equity needs to be a piece of that too.
Would you agree with that?
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I feel like that's gonna be different for different spaces to that.
Like,
I feel like that's why it's hard to define,
you know,
I'm doing work now in Columbus with preschools and I just,
I feel like there's different assets and different needs on in every,
(22:22):
like if you look at a school,
if you look at a community,
whatever,
like you can't just like,
it's not a blanket thing,
you know,
where in the playing field might look different,
but it's,
that's the goal like it's to make sure everybody has what they need from like the standpoint.
So maybe then what we're also saying because I feel like we're just coming up with a,
(22:44):
you know,
like we're,
we're,
we're writing our own position statement.
But I feel like what we're also saying then is that for librarians to be able to affect literacy within their community,
whether that's a school community or a,
a public libraries community or whatever,
then they have to really know and understand that community.
Yes.
Like no doubt.
(23:04):
Like that to me,
I think is number one.
And I think,
and I think like,
OK,
so I was a librarian for four years in one elementary school and I was new to the school as the librarian.
So I wasn't part of the community when I started.
But like,
you go from like,
having to know the community to like being like the hub of the community.
Like,
I do think that regardless of like,
(23:26):
any of these things,
the library is this hub for the community.
And I just remember,
like,
I,
I don't know,
librarians know all this stuff they know,
like,
I mean,
it is like the place and I don't even think,
I don't even know that anybody like knows that except when you're the librarian like,
but,
but I mean,
it is such a,
(23:46):
it's such a center even even if it,
I don't,
even if consciously the school doesn't realize that.
Yeah.
And that's the thing is like,
I think that it has the potential,
like libraries have such the potential to be that.
But again,
we're back to this intentionality.
There has to be someone in that space who is doing the outreach to ensure that the school or the community knows and understands and also has so many has like multiple access points.
(24:21):
Like there's not just one way to interact with the library or engage with the library,
there's multiple access points that feel welcoming,
but also feel safe.
Yeah,
and enticing and all of that stuff.
So that's constant work because our community is always changing,
right?
Like what we do when you're made at work for the next year ever.
And you have to figure out like,
(24:41):
what,
what's safe for the community,
like,
not what you think is,
you know what I mean?
What you think is a good invitation but what is really what people are responding to?
Because I think like,
I went to the library with this vision and then,
you know,
you have,
it's like,
OK,
it's my vision.
That's what I figure it out and darn it.
Why aren't these people seeing my vision?
(25:02):
Right?
I don't,
you know,
then when you like start just doing what the community does or needs or wants,
then it's,
it's much you become part of the community.
Does that feel like?
Uh because one of the things we were talking about earlier before the,
before I hit record was that I how hard it is sometimes or how it can feel like a challenge regardless of what type of librarian you are to get others to,
(25:28):
to want to collaborate with you,
to feel like that's a good use of their time.
And,
and I say that I say that use that phrasing intentionally because time is finite and people feel there's so many demands for our time that we have to prioritize what we feel like,
you know,
to use the expression that the juice is worth the squeeze,
(25:50):
right?
Like we have to prioritize what we feel like we're gonna get the most value from,
right?
So in hearing you talk about this idea of getting to know the community and providing um some of the space and scaffolds to,
to ensure that all learners are able to develop those literacy skills.
(26:13):
Do you think there's potential there for collaborations with teachers or other community members?
Do you think that's a a segue to collaboration?
Yeah,
I feel like,
so I feel like and I might be jumping ahead but I feel like the issue is like,
I feel like my best collaboration didn't feel like we were collaborating because we didn't schedule it.
But somebody would come in at lunch and they would need something for like a half hour later and I would get like really irritated.
(26:39):
Like I'm like,
you need to plan better than that.
And then I realized I'm sure that made them feel very welcome.
But I,
I just,
I did not say that.
Do you know what I mean?
But I remember thinking if you would have like had a meeting with me last week,
I could have had a really good pile of books for you.
Like right now it's 12 30.
You want the book by one o'clock?
I'm not gonna be able to do this.
Well,
and you're gonna read the,
(26:59):
you're gonna just read this book and it might not be right.
So,
and so,
but then I realized that when somebody comes in the,
the library every Monday at 12 30 for five minutes to do that,
it's like the person that you buy your coffee from in the morning,
you build a relationship.
So I feel like that collaboration or when it's stressful for classroom teachers is when I go in and say,
(27:20):
hey,
let's plan a unit together.
Could I meet with you on Tuesday during your planning time?
Or instead if I just meet them when they come in for five minutes and then build a relationship over time,
like I didn't,
I wasn't thinking long term.
The first couple of times those people came in,
I was thinking about wanting to do this perfect book stack for them or wanting to collaborate in my head.
(27:42):
But like when I started just like giving them what they needed in the moment without judgment,
you know,
and then the relationship came from that and they'd come back and we talk a little bit about the book and we talk about a new one,
but it was like five minutes a week over time,
which is very different than asking somebody to sit for 15 minutes.
(28:03):
So like,
I feel like the collaboration that's best is that,
that happens naturally when the relationship is there instead of like the forced,
I agree.
And I,
and I wouldn't count like I,
if somebody,
you know,
if I was filling out my teacher evaluation on when I collaborate,
I don't think I could write down those like five minute things.
But over time,
(28:24):
that was a lot of time we spent together figuring out which books made sense for those classrooms.
Yeah.
And so when I knew in once a week I'd be thinking ahead,
you know.
Right.
Right.
Through collaboration.
But it absolutely was schools and PLC.
You know what I mean?
Like it,
like for me,
the learning was,
(28:44):
I had to start with where people I,
I couldn't for,
you can't force relationships.
No.
And,
and you go ahead,
go ahead and that's just what's really hard as a new librarian I think is that there's so many relationships to have and so many kids and adults and,
and you know,
whether public or,
(29:04):
or school and you can't rush that,
you can't rush building relationships.
So I realized after the first year,
I remember thinking I hadn't accomplished much the first year in the library and I realized I had seen every class about the amount of time if I was a classroom teacher that I would have spent with them the first month of school.
And I was like,
oh,
like,
and I'm trying to,
and I know better than to speed up the first month of school.
(29:27):
And so,
you know,
I just,
I think we in order to collaborate,
rushing relationships was probably my biggest like,
mistake.
The first time I did work like that,
like trying to,
you've said so many things I think are important here first is just think about all the different,
like things that,
that teacher could do with that five minutes or whoever walks into your library,
(29:50):
there are lots of other demands that are competing for that five minutes.
So the five minutes that they are gifting to you,
which they are,
you know what I mean is,
is all they have,
maybe all they have to give and they're prioritizing you over something else.
So that feels to me like that,
that we should assume that the need then is urgent,
(30:11):
you know,
like,
it's not like a afterthought.
It's not a,
it's not a product of core planning.
It's really just,
this is an urgent need and they've come to me.
So that's like a level of trust there if we can reframe that because I,
I have no,
I mean,
no,
you're right because I felt the same way.
No,
I think you're right because there's definitely,
(30:31):
I've definitely had librarian experiences where I'd go into the library when school was closed.
So I didn't have like,
because it wasn't like gonna be a good relationship like Right.
Right.
Or I'm like,
you know,
like talking to somebody while they're standing at the xerox machine trying to empty my mailbox and going,
oh,
by the way,
can you pull a card of books for me on this topic?
You know,
you know,
like that,
(30:51):
you know,
so it's like I,
I get it like also that one of the things I learned and this was,
this came from that same thing actually is I I'm a buyer of books.
Like,
I never,
I didn't start my career relying on the school library.
So,
until I was a librarian,
I didn't realize how much teachers relied on the school library.
(31:13):
And then all of a sudden I was like,
oh,
like the books I have on display or the books you're gonna use.
So,
if I'm really smart about that,
you're gonna find really good books and be really happy.
Like,
but I didn't realize like,
the teachers that came in at lunch,
they expected to find the resources they needed,
which was,
you're right.
Like,
that's a trust thing,
like,
you know,
and so I realized,
(31:34):
like,
the impact that picking a book from the library has and then bring it back to your kids.
Like,
the impact in a three minute visit to the library could be huge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Over time and then,
you know,
like for your evaluation or whatever else,
you just write it up the way you have to because there's a couple of things there too that I want to point out that you said that I thought were really meaningful is that um I,
(32:00):
one thing and,
and you did it too while you were talking is that I think teachers are not really great at like sharing the things that they're good at,
right?
But they hyper focus on the things that they feel like they could do better.
Like,
and you do the same thing,
like,
and I do it too.
Like,
you know,
let me tell you about this thing that I do.
I do that.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so like in those conversations,
(32:22):
if as librarians,
if we can,
like,
train ourselves as listeners to be really active listeners,
then we will hear the needs.
Like we will hear the things that the teachers are saying this,
you know,
this is something that didn't go well or I wish I had time for this or I wish I to me like then that's your collaboration entry point because it is about being able to help them do better in ways that they really want to do better.
(32:52):
Right.
Yes,
I agree.
Like I think I went in with a vision of myself like I said,
and really like once I,
like once that happened,
I started listening to teachers and with the school,
I was like,
oh yeah,
you don't know me,
I don't know you my first year as a library and I'll confess the same thing I made this beautiful Google calendar that was connected to a Google form.
(33:16):
And my first year people would come in and say,
can I do such and such and say,
well,
you have to fill out the form and no one ever did.
And then I would just be sitting in the library alone,
right?
And so what I learned after that first year was I fill out the form like I wanted the form to be able to collect some data about who I was working with.
(33:36):
So I could,
like,
see who I wasn't working with.
Like that was kind of,
but I,
that form was a barrier for a lot of teachers,
for me to actually be able to work with them.
Even though a four question,
Google form doesn't seem like a heavy lift when you're already carrying way too much.
That is a bridge to Yeah.
(33:57):
Yeah.
So I know exactly what you're saying.
It's like as librarians,
if we want to help affect literacy for our communities,
then we have to start by being,
we have to practice some of those skills ourselves and listen to the messages that we're being given and then react,
you know,
appropriately to that and listen,
(34:20):
you're right.
Like listening for like years.
Yes,
it does take over time,
takes a long time.
It really does because you're right.
Those relationships are so important because then it's like,
you know,
there's something,
there's a,
I'm gonna get this wrong which I know my students will appreciate.
But there's some kind of phrasing in marketing that's like,
(34:42):
it's,
it's like a metaphor that marketers use that's related to boxing.
So I'm really going around here,
I've gone from libraries to marketing to boxing one sentence.
But the idea behind it is like,
I guess there's a boxing term that's like jab jab jab hook,
like you have to jab so many times before you hook right.
And in marketing,
(35:02):
they changed that to give,
give,
give,
ask,
like you have to give so many times before you can ask.
And I think for librarians who want to do more than just circulate books randomly to kids who come in on a schedule or whatever,
who want to really affect literacy rates.
We have to do that listening and provide,
(35:25):
provide,
provide.
And then if we need that teacher or whoever to help us fill out some form that proves we've been collaborating or do whatever.
I think they're more likely to do that for us.
Right?
Would you say that's true?
Yes,
because then you know each other and you like,
yeah,
I mean,
I think that because on your colleagues,
like I think to expect it before you know people.
(35:48):
Yeah,
it's,
that's that,
that trust,
right?
That,
that because then because you're doing it because you both probably want it done too.
Do you know what I mean?
It's not just for you,
it's because you both want to document it.
Well,
I feel like,
you know,
it's like for my students who are at various points in their journey,
(36:09):
some of for some students,
this will be their first class in the program for others.
It will be their last,
you know,
like it's um they get to take it out whenever they want.
Um One common thread that I see uh throughout is feeling like they've learned so much in the program,
but they're not really certain how it actually applies in like the real world,
(36:32):
you know.
And so I love this conversation that is uh sort of,
uh it's about literacy,
but at the same time,
like,
focusing on how do we actually get to the point where we can have those,
you know,
do that,
that collaborative work with teachers.
Because without that,
I,
we,
we can't get to the point where we're affecting literacy.
(36:53):
I mean,
the other thing I think was huge for me both as a teacher and as a librarian when it came to collaboration.
And I remember this,
I want to say it was right when we got laptops and the kindergartners in the first grade had to learn how to login and they had like those 20 they had those passwords that like were just a lot of letters and numbers and other letters and numbers.
(37:13):
And I remember for a couple of years we did the logins in the library like we talked to in,
we made the login card we duplicated the and,
and I,
I mean,
it was hard.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My number kind of work.
Yeah.
But that was the barrier to the kids using that tool in the classroom.
(37:33):
And really as a classroom teacher,
the first six weeks of kindergarten,
you can't do that,
you know.
And so I,
I like it in the long run for the school and even for the library,
those kids knowing how to log in and putting that time in,
you know,
and we had the flexibility in the library that because we're not teaching them how to read it,
you know,
we're not in charge of that.
(37:54):
So,
you know,
in the long run doing that in the library made sense for everyone.
And so it was collaborative and that we were,
we were helping take away a barrier that was keeping kids from some resource because it,
it wasn't manageable in the class.
(38:15):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I think we can do the same thing for teachers like you are,
as you said,
you're removing a barrier for the kids,
but you're also removing a barrier for the adults,
right?
You also said something in there that I wanna touch on because I think this is an important part of this conversation before we wrap it up is um you know,
(38:38):
you said that we in the library,
we,
we have a little bit more freedom because we're not teaching kids how to read and you know,
you taught elementary through sixth grade.
I've taught middle and high school,
right?
And college.
Right.
So we're covering all ages,
you know,
all of the grade spans here.
(38:59):
And I will tell you that there are kids in every single one of those grades spans,
there are learners in every single one of those grade fans who are still learning how to read.
And so it doesn't matter what,
you know,
like,
grade,
their teachers are still teaching them how to read.
Yes.
So,
with that in mind,
if we're not teaching kids how to read.
Ok.
I wanna,
(39:20):
I wanna rephrase that,
that we're not the,
it's not our,
like,
that's not our main responsibility.
Like we're not the ones filling out that form to make sure they passed the third grade test.
Like,
it's,
that's not on us.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
And we're not teaching them how to decode phoning or we're not teaching them how to decode actually teaching them the how.
But I think we're teaching them,
(39:41):
OK,
I mean,
I think we're teaching them ways to be literate.
I think we're teaching them lifelong literacy.
I think we're teaching them the behaviors.
I think we're teaching them all of like what it means to be literate.
But I,
but I think that's different and teaching them how to read.
But I think we,
(40:01):
I think we teach them some how tos.
I,
yeah,
I mean,
this is interesting because I'm like,
and my second book is called still learning to read.
So I think everyone's still learning to read.
Like I'm like,
I'm so like,
I like my little brownie point.
Like men,
would you say one of the things that I say a lot?
(40:22):
And I wanna see if you have pushed back on this is that I would say that while we don't teach kids or learners how to read,
we teach them how to be readers.
Yes.
And so in the same way that we might not teach them how to,
like,
we're not teaching them content like a discipline like science or math or whatever.
(40:43):
We teach them to be readers to be thinkers,
to be learners.
Like,
so we are teaching more dispositions as opposed.
Does that make sense or do you feel?
And I would,
I would say more than just reader,
we teach them to be literate again because it's more,
it's not just readers,
like we teach them how to be learners.
(41:05):
Mhm You know,
so yeah,
and I feel like they can,
it's a really authentic space to do that.
You know,
it's not the pressure of the pressure of all the standardized testing and all of that.
It so it could be a really authentic.
Yeah,
I mean,
I agree.
I there's no pushback on that but it's so interesting to think about like,
(41:28):
because I do think they learn to read,
I think there is,
they do do some learning to read in the library.
But well,
one feels the other,
don't you think like the,
the better able you are like the more confidence you feel in your vocabulary or your ability to decode,
then the more motivated you are to explore different types of texts that might feel a little bit more challenging,
(41:51):
et cetera.
So that,
that's the skill to fuels the disposition.
But at the same time,
the more pleasure and joy and the way,
the more that a reading affects your identity is who you are,
the more that's gonna affect your ability to decode and to have some stamina when that gets hard.
So the two things inform each other.
(42:13):
And I do think,
I don't know if this happened with you,
but I had to let go of some of my reading teacher things.
You know what I mean?
Like,
kids would turn in a book.
I remember talking to my friend who was a public school library and kids,
like,
my first couple of months would turn in books with like a bookmark in the middle.
Like,
they hadn't finished it.
I'm like,
well,
she's never finishing a book.
She's like,
you gotta let go of that.
Like,
how can I let go of that?
Like,
I'm a reading teacher and then I was like,
(42:34):
ok,
like,
I can't,
like,
do that.
I had to really,
and again,
it went back to relationships.
I don't have a relationship with this kid to go.
Why didn't you finish the book?
And you don't know if you wanted to ever come back to the library and you don't have that relationship with kids,
like you do in the classroom until you get a couple of years with them.
And then all of a sudden you have a but,
(42:55):
but that was huge for me.
Like,
I had to,
like,
go with some of my reading teacher me a little bit to be,
to be like that,
to make sure I was supporting their empowered reading life.
I love everything about this conversation frankly.
And I'm like,
now I'm like,
I'm gonna be up all night thinking about all these things.
I'm like,
wait,
I don't know.
Well,
(43:15):
that will be our next conversation.
That would be interesting.
I'm like,
we need to start our podcast now.
We just,
we just,
we need to be doing this on a regular basis,
I think.
But I,
what I've heard us say like what I've heard come out of this,
right?
Is that literacy for the digital,
you know,
kids learners living in the digital age is about the understanding that all messages,
(43:41):
media,
et cetera,
things that you take meaning from are constructed.
So there's the meaning that is intended and then there's the meaning that we create et cetera.
But understanding that those messages are constructed is a core of all literacy.
Also,
there I heard us say that there is an intentionality around literacy that is a thread that underpins all of them.
(44:06):
Um especially when we're talking about our own creation process as um a literate individual.
And then I also heard us say that for librarians,
then,
then one of our most important roles is to build relationships and trust with our community and an understanding of our community so that we can identify their needs um so that we can swoop in and save the day and help to affect their literacy.
(44:34):
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And that we have to,
um,
I,
I think I didn't hear us say this but it's something I'm taking away from our conversation is that we have to let go,
maybe of some of our,
um,
uh,
deeply held identity around literacy if we have that before.
(44:54):
But also recognize that all aspects of literacy are important and inform one another that it's not about one being the key,
one thing being the key.
Right.
Yeah.
Wow,
you're good at this.
No,
we're smart.
Look at,
look at this.
I'm like,
wow,
like,
yeah,
it's just,
yes,
I'm just,
wow.
(45:15):
Yeah.
Like,
it's so interesting,
like,
the way literacy has changed is really,
and I haven't really thought about it like this deeply for,
you know,
I don't know,
during the pandemic,
I don't know if I've thought about literacy and how it's changed and I'm just like,
it's just so interesting to see like the place we are and what's possible and I,
(45:35):
I don't know,
like relationships and all the,
all the stuff that goes with it.
And,
you know,
the other thing I think is librarians don't get like the,
the kudos that,
like,
you get as a classroom teacher sometimes,
you know what I mean?
Like,
the real change is so subtle and slow and you just become part of the culture and,
and,
and not,
you know,
like I've been in schools with the librarian,
(45:56):
the school that is reading,
like,
they know every book and they're huge readers and everyone just takes it for granted.
Well,
that happened because the librarian is amazing.
You know what I mean?
And now,
like,
you build a school culture like that and then it just is.
And so I think that there's like a beauty to that once you go,
like,
oh my gosh,
like,
look like that.
It's not visible,
(46:16):
you know,
it's,
it's not the same as like being in the classroom and,
and I don't know,
it's not the same and it does,
it feels different and the,
the,
the change is slower and the change is different and bigger.
So I,
yeah,
it's uh it's in,
you know,
you don't have to convince me about the magic of obviously,
(46:37):
of librarians.
But I,
what you're saying,
I feel that so deeply because,
uh,
you know,
as you and I are talking right now,
who knows what the world will look like?
12 months from now?
We certainly couldn't have predicted what it would look like 12 months ago.
Right.
Right.
But our world feels more divided than ever and the gaps between those who have and those who do not,
(47:01):
those who are lifted up and those who are pushed down,
those who are amplified versus those who are silenced,
those gaps are wider and wider and wider.
And to me at the heart,
the primary role of the librarian is to bridge,
bridge those gaps and we do that through reading and books and technology and all that other stuff.
(47:22):
But really,
our role is to bridge gaps.
You know,
libraries are the last bastion of egalitarianism in this world that they're so fundamentally important to our society.
Right.
So,
and we kind of,
as you said,
take them for granted,
we really,
really,
we have good ones.
(47:43):
You know what I mean?
You really don't even think twice.
You just have a,
you just have a really great library which is until we Yeah,
exactly.
So we have a bad one and then we just the library in position is what we need part of the world.
Like it's not a good library to be part of how the world is all the time everywhere.
I know.
So with that in mind,
(48:04):
how,
what would you like?
What advice would you give to my students moving forward?
And where can they reach out to you on social media if they would like to?
So that's a two fold out to be anywhere?
Frankie Sier,
Frankie Sipper,
Frankie.
And I'm text sets on Instagram.
How I would say,
(48:24):
I don't know,
just like,
hm,
I mean,
enjoy being part of the community,
I think in a different role,
I think instead of like putting pressure on yourself to do it the way you envisioned it is probably the big thing.
And I think,
I mean,
we have a job where,
like,
we get to read for,
like,
our jobs,
(48:45):
like,
take advantage of that.
Like,
like I was talking books the other day and my husband was,
like,
you really know books.
I'm like,
well,
that's my job.
Like,
I know that's really,
I,
I know I'm very impressive but that's like what I do.
Um,
but like,
we have this joyful piece too that people count on us for that.
So,
like,
we can't negate that either.
Like I think we can think about all these things about literacy too.
(49:05):
But I think knowing books and resources is kind of a fun part of our job that brings us joy and brings people joy.
So,
I mean,
I don't know,
I think we just have to slow down to do the job well and build relationship.
I,
I mean,
when you said bridges,
I,
I went back to relationships because we bridged people.
I mean,
the,
the relationship piece is the connection piece is it,
(49:26):
it really is because you can't do the other stuff without them.
You really can't rush it.
And I do think the that is probably my biggest like take time to become part of a community before you rush to decide what to do.
Do you know what I mean?
Like,
yeah,
I love that.
I love that.
(49:47):
So fun.
This is,
thank you so so much.
I'm gonna stop recording.
So my students.
Yes.
Thank you can get on with their lives.
Um,
but thank you all,
I look forward to your discussion of this conversation this week and to hearing what you have to say in response to what Frankie and I chatted about.
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