June 25, 2023 • 29 mins
In this episode, Lucas Maxwell shares how he uses Dungeons and Dragons to create safe, welcoming spaces for learners.
Connect with Lucas:
Book recommendations:
- A Work in Progress by Jarrett Lerner
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
Hi,
everyone and welcome to another Ru 5 15 Voices of Literacy conversation this week.
It is my pleasure to welcome my friend and longtime Twitter colleague,
Lucas Maxwell Lucas,
although originally from Nova Scotia,
Canada is currently the librarian at Glen Thorn High School in South London.
(00:37):
UK.
We've known each other for a long time and we'll discuss that in our interview.
But Lucas has worked in libraries,
both public and school for over 15 years.
And today we're going to be talking to him about his highly successful and award winning dungeons and Dragons program,
(00:57):
which he has spoken about all over the world and is focused highly on how table games,
specifically role playing games like dungeons and dragons can be used to help create safe spaces in the library,
particularly for neurodivergent learners like Lucas himself.
(01:18):
So I can't wait for you to meet him.
Let's go ahead and get started.
Hi,
Jennifer.
I'm really grateful to be here.
Thank you so much for having me today.
I can't,
I can't remember how long we have been friends and,
and my students will be able to see me putting that in air quotes,
but we've never physically met.
We've just been connected through RPLN for a lot of years now.
(01:40):
A long time.
I mean,
I've been on social media library wise for 10 years.
So,
and I think I came across your accounts pretty early on.
I think I've been there for about 14 years because I'm about 100 years older than you or so.
But I think you're right.
I think we connected early on.
It's been a delight to see all the things that you do with your uh students.
(02:03):
And I want to go ahead and dive in for my students.
Do you mind starting by telling us a little bit about your school?
A no problem.
Thank you.
My school,
the name is Glen Thorne High School and it is in South London,
UK,
kind of like a borough of London,
very populated,
very busy area and the school.
So in the UK,
(02:23):
what they call high school is also called secondary school.
It's a little confusing.
There's not really a lot of middle school or junior high with like I was used to in Canada here in the UK.
So a high school in the UK can have a like,
like our school has ages 11 to 19 in one building and there's about 800 students,
which for me is big,
coming from a small Canadian community and a small school growing up to me,
(02:48):
that's a huge school.
I know there are larger ones,
I'm sure in the US and scattered about,
but it's big and it's busy.
So I'm the librarian there and,
you know,
it's,
it caters to all those students so it's a busy,
busy spot.
Tell me a little bit about your students.
I'm imagining that's a pretty urban area.
It's very urban.
We are essentially in considered in London.
(03:10):
And I mean,
it like,
just to give you context,
I guess if you wanted to get to the London Eye,
the big Ferris Wheel,
it would be maybe a 20 minute train journey into the very heart of London.
So we're like out there,
but it's London's so massive.
So the school,
I mean,
the students themselves,
I mean,
they are and it's been a great experience for me again,
(03:31):
coming from very rural Canada to this,
this school to see students from,
I mean,
every nationality,
every religion,
everything under the sun has been a huge eye opener for me in a really positive way.
So the students that I work with most directly are ages 11 to like 14 because they get to come in the library for these dedicated library classes or lessons that I,
(03:55):
that I run.
So I get to see them right away.
I get to run these introductory,
you know,
introduction to the library lessons.
And,
yeah,
and they are a huge mix.
I mean,
from every,
as you can imagine every country you could name any country,
I think.
And they,
and they would come,
we do have some Canadian and North American students as well.
But a lot of European students,
(04:15):
a lot of students from,
uh China and Japan,
a lot of students from the Middle East and a lot of students from,
um,
you know,
the Asia and I mean,
all over.
Honestly,
it's,
it's really been great to,
to meet them and to be honest,
it sounds like a fascinating but wonderful ecosystem.
And I asked those questions because I'm curious about,
(04:36):
you know,
we're gonna be talking about dungeons and dragons during our interview.
And I'm just curious about,
what about your school population inspired you to bring that into the library before we get into like how it's running?
How it started?
I'm curious about what about your kids made you want to do that?
(04:56):
I mean,
that is,
that is a really cool question.
So about my kids.
I felt like I'm,
I'm kind of,
I don't know if it's,
I don't know how to describe it,
but it's kind of selfish in a way,
in my opinion,
in my own opinion because what I'm doing in my school library,
I've been running,
I've been there for like I said,
10 years now and when I was in high school in junior high,
(05:19):
I didn't have a school library.
There was like a room,
but nobody did anything.
There was nothing ever going on there ever.
And I went in once and I think someone shouted at me or something about something which,
you know,
whatever.
But so it's just like one of those situations.
So everything I do is kind of like what would,
what would,
what would 13 year old Lucas in there?
I love it.
That's why we do comic cons and I fill it with graphic novels and manga and stuff and cool stuff and then I was,
(05:44):
and then I,
I kind of dungeons and dragons has always been in the,
in my life in some regard or another in the background or through the books or whatever.
And it really took a student to kind of just say,
can I run it?
And I was like,
yeah,
of course,
like,
and II,
I did it in the public library in Canada.
I used to,
I work as a teen services librarian in Canada for five years.
(06:06):
So it just,
I guess it was just something that when they said that it kind of like a light bulb,
like,
why haven't I been doing this more?
And I just got back into it really full steam from then on out.
And,
um,
what I'm identifying as,
I'm sure you've seen maybe talking to other people and what I've seen talking to other people is that the game has been just a huge boon and huge amazing benefits for students.
(06:31):
And I didn't clock that right off the bat and I just thought this is like,
just fun.
Cool because when I didn't get to play it a lot as a kid because,
like,
where I grew up there just wasn't any groups.
It was really tricky.
So I had all the books,
you know,
I had all the,
they say all the gear,
no idea.
I just didn't know what I was doing with them and I had all the stuff,
like,
I was making stuff and doing stuff,
but I just didn't know what,
(06:53):
I didn't get to play that much.
So,
a very long rambling answer to your question.
But I could see initially,
I was kind of like that.
It's amazing.
Let's do it.
But it took me a little while to see.
Wow,
this is really having an impact on students.
So,
and it's just exploded from there.
I can't even describe how popular it is.
Says people,
well,
I want to hear all about that.
(07:14):
Like,
I want to know like what it started as and what it looks like now.
But before I let you answer that,
I just have to say 13 year old Jennifer,
it sounds like she would love your library too.
So I,
I quickly planning a vacation to Glen Thorn Secondary School that being said,
uh let's,
let's talk about it.
You know,
a student asked you about it and you were like,
(07:36):
uh why haven't I been doing this?
And so how did it start then?
What did you do to begin with to sort of get the ball or the dye rolling.
Good,
uh,
good question.
So I initially just bought the starter set.
So if anybody listening,
if you want to get started,
that's all you need really is the starter set and it's just like,
uh,
I think it's even like $15 or whatever on Amazon or wherever you buy it,
uh,
go to your local game instead and buy it.
(07:58):
Uh,
uh,
but it's not expensive.
It has everything you need,
need to start.
And I got that and then the student was like,
I want to run it.
Can I run it?
I was like,
of course.
So we got it set up,
had some students interested and just the way life goes that student who was running,
it couldn't do it anymore very early on.
So I said I'll take it on and the rules had changed drastically since I was a kid.
(08:22):
And I was completely,
what is this?
You know,
I was,
I was overwhelmed to be honest because I do struggle with things like that as well.
Like,
so I was just trying to like process all this information and I found it extremely overwhelming,
but I was quickly re kind of like hooked on it.
And I was like,
this is so cool again.
I couldn't and I just was reintroduced to it in that way just because that student couldn't do it.
(08:45):
And I began to be the dungeon master for a group of five kids who were who were 13 at the time.
And I'm now they're now 17 and I'm still running a campaign,
another campaign like this.
Some of them,
this is our final year at the school and we're still the same core group with a few kids added in that group as me as the dungeon master.
(09:10):
But a bunch of those kids and a bunch of other kids have now become dungeon masters as well.
And I mean,
it's grown from those five kids sitting in the library doing it and then we did it all the,
all the time on online over the,
when we were in lockdown as well.
And it's grown from those five kids to,
I mean,
I think we've got about 50 kids now who are involved.
(09:33):
Yeah,
for a library program.
I mean,
that,
and what I say to people is that I've,
I've been running programs for teens for 15 years.
If you count to the public library,
I've never had a program where they never miss like they will not miss a session.
They're obsessed with it.
And if I miss a session,
I do get emails from them sometimes where,
(09:54):
where,
where are you,
what's going on?
So it's grown,
it's exploded in that way.
And like I said,
they,
they,
um they do some of them I can tell like they rely on that setting to,
for a safe,
comfortable space.
So,
um I'm,
I'm really dedicated to it in that regard because I've never seen a program kind of have the impact that this one has.
(10:15):
So that's why I'm,
I'm glad you mentioned about how you've noticed that for some students,
it's a,
it's a safe place for them to,
you know,
commune with others and to be themselves in terms of the,
just the sheer volume of participants and dedication to it.
Um,
(10:35):
along with that,
what do you think the reasons are for its popularity for some kids?
Surely it's a safe place.
But what do you think generally?
Are there other things that have really drawn kids to it?
You think?
I think if we're looking,
you know,
aside from the safety aspect of it,
it is a way for these,
for some kids to what I've,
(10:57):
I've been lucky that I've been able to speak to some people who know a lot more about this,
like mental health experts run it in the States for,
um,
for teens as therapy.
And,
um,
one thing that stood out when I was speaking to them was that for them for a lot of kids.
And I can tell it's for hours as well.
D and D can be something like behavior education,
which is basically just when they,
(11:19):
they know that no matter how horrible their week's been or their day's been,
they know that for an hour on this day and this day and this day that they're going to laugh and they know that there's a dedicated space,
even putting safety aside.
It's more of like,
I'm going to have a relief for this,
this hour with Mr Maxwell and my friends also.
(11:39):
It's been a way for a lot of them to find friends,
let alone,
like finding a safe place.
A lot of them felt like.
And I've had,
you know,
testimonials from parents and students themselves saying the like and they travel together in the library like a little pack,
the ones that I've been and the other ones and they have found a friendship group through this game.
Many of them and I can see that just on my own observation in the library watching them.
(12:04):
And the other thing that's unique.
And I've said this before to other librarians is that when I was in high school and I'm sure in regular high schools or not regular but current high schools is what I'm trying to say when you are 11 to hang out with like a 17 year old.
When I was that age would,
you would never even think of it.
And what we've got is 17 year olds.
(12:26):
Dungeon being the dungeon master for 11 year olds and they are hanging out in the library.
They're I and I use this story a lot because when I was just like at my desk the other day,
it was a little while ago now,
but the 17 year old was running it after school for the 11 year olds and at the end of the session,
one of the 11 year olds came up to her and said I saw you in the corridor the other day,
(12:47):
but I didn't say hi because I didn't want to embarrass you.
And she was like,
you don't have to ever worry about that.
I always say hi.
You know,
and it was like this.
I was like,
oh my God,
we were like,
cool moment and it was so cool.
I know.
And that would be like social death in my life when I was that.
(13:07):
And for that,
and I've never seen,
again,
I've never seen a program kind of like,
combine these things and I've been doing it with,
we ran a Dungeon convention a little mini one on a Saturday where we had a bunch of teachers show up and I mean,
to have a math teacher playing a druid sitting around 5,
11 year olds and they're shouting at him,
you know,
he love,
help us,
you know,
and then the,
the team,
(13:27):
you know,
and he's like panicking.
He said to me,
he said a,
he's never laughed so hard in his life and he's never seen four hours go by that fast in his life.
He ran it for four hours and I mean,
then they want to,
you know,
we're doing another one in June and yeah,
it's just been like to see that.
It just completely flips the whole kind of setting when you've got a teenage dungeon master who's in control and now we've got teens training teachers to be dungeon masters who are interested in the game.
(13:55):
On a lunch hour.
It's like a lunch hour program.
So now the reasons are many.
But I think those are the big ones,
like the safety that,
which we talked about in the friendship groups.
And this idea of,
um,
this idea of this relief,
they can get things out through their characters.
They can get stresses out if they're having a rough week.
You know,
when I,
(14:16):
when I know when I know the wizard is loading up a fireball in a 12 by 12 room,
maybe she's had a rough day or something because she's just like,
I'm just going to blast and it's fun.
That's because there's no real consequences.
It's just a fun silly,
you know,
and I'm running it in a,
in a,
in a very kind of like relaxed way.
There's a lot of,
a lot of jokes,
a lot of horrible jokes.
(14:36):
They know I'm going to tell bad jokes.
They know I'm going to do this and that and,
you know,
it's just,
they know that they're completely imme this and safe and nothing is going to actually bad will ever happen and they won't ever feel judged by what they say or do if they do a silly voice because I'm doing them,
you know,
I'm in control this room and no one is gonna like invade that space.
(14:57):
So I love that.
Well,
I'm so glad you brought up teachers because that was one of my questions is how the adults have reacted,
you know,
um it sounds like you've got some support from your colleagues.
What about your administration and parents and stuff?
So,
yeah,
so when I,
when we went into lockdown was when it really,
I really noticed it,
(15:17):
of course,
and I'm sure a lot of people did as well because I sent out a letter,
they were desperate to play.
We usually were playing at that point like twice a week on a Monday,
Wednesday and Friday lunch hour and they had their online lessons and I sent a letter home to the parents saying,
look,
they've asked if we could play and we upped it to like,
I think it was three or four times a day and I was fully aware of the screen time and things like that.
(15:41):
But we,
um,
we had breaks,
we did it after school,
but we were still on the line and I sent a letter home,
like if the parents were,
you know,
ok with it and they emailed me back and say this is,
you know,
like the funny ones that came back,
like my kid would kill me if I didn't allow them.
And also like this is,
this is the only like this is,
they've told me that this just keeps all the,
(16:01):
like at that time when we didn't know anything about COVID and everything was really scary and they said this is the only thing that is keeping her from,
I think,
from being extremely freaked out and anxious and losing,
losing it.
So,
when I was getting emails like that,
I was like,
ok,
I know I'm happy to do it.
Of course it was because it was helping me as well.
I mean,
it was,
it was like,
so the parents have always been fully on board and they are extremely supportive.
(16:27):
And when we ran the Dungeon Con,
um they,
one of the parents,
you know,
sent their child in with this,
this huge package of like homemade food and stuff for to feed like 50 kids that showed up.
It was absolutely amazing.
And the teachers at first,
the teachers are,
were confused,
you know,
because their kids,
(16:47):
the students were talking about this game constantly and they wanted to know like,
what is it?
And so I would invite them in.
So we've got,
now we've got,
when we run it on like a Wednesday after school with our teen dungeon master,
we've got a little group of teachers now who come to watch it,
which is really cool.
And we've got,
(17:08):
we've got teachers who like I said,
were trained by some of the teen dungeon masters to help out during the Dungeon Kong because they just wanted,
they came,
they took their Saturday from 10 to like we stayed,
ended up for like some of us,
like three pm on the Saturday.
And they are extremely as,
you know,
like teachers are extremely overworked and busy and stressed out.
And here they go on,
they take their Saturday to do this with these kids.
(17:30):
Um And they have seen the benefits of it and the big breakthrough that I just had last week was that I approached my senior leadership team and they are aware of it.
They don't really know what it is.
They're,
but they're super supportive,
which I'm extremely lucky about.
And then I made this little,
put this little pack together and I talked about,
you know,
here are the benefits that I've seen.
(17:51):
Here are the things that they've told me here are the things from parents,
teachers,
et cetera.
And I just got approval for starting in September to run it as like a part of our,
what we call continued professional development for well being for teachers as like a regular thing.
And I'm doing a trial in,
when is it first week of July?
Like with a small group of teachers just to like gather feedback.
(18:14):
I'm going to do like a little one shot,
a little funny one shot.
And I'm actually meeting some tomorrow.
We're going to do some of the teachers tomorrow.
We're going to run a thing that I've written because I'm working with a charity in the UK that,
that wants to run D and D to help neurodivergent youth.
So I'm working on making a basically a one shot dungeon thing adventure,
(18:36):
not really a dungeon but like an adventure set in a book,
bookshop of all places.
That's step by step.
You know,
if you were new to the D Ming and you maybe need to like,
take a little extra time to like work stuff out like I do.
It's all from like,
what,
what would help me?
I need everything kind of like very clearly written out.
So I'm running that and I'm going to like play test it tomorrow with a bunch.
So um it's really,
(18:57):
yeah,
so it's really taken off and the teachers have been absolutely amazing.
So um I'm really excited for the well-being aspect of the,
of the professional development because as you know,
working in schools,
like when you're in a high school as well,
the English department,
they stay with that group.
They are like the math.
They just,
it's just the nature of it.
Very siloed,
very and librarians as well can be isolated and they can be isolated as well.
(19:22):
And this is,
this will bring together.
I've got about eight different departments taking part and um they're going to just work together solving,
it's not just going to be fighting,
it's going to be solving puzzles,
they're going to have to work together and do all this cool stuff.
So,
yeah.
Yeah,
I'm really excited.
So it's been a it's,
that's been a huge breakthrough for me because I,
I just,
I guess,
I just assume,
like,
you sometimes assume senior leadership,
(19:44):
they're gonna be like,
what you're gonna be playing,
you know,
it's just a game or whatever.
But when you show them the benefit,
like,
when I've,
I've written it all down,
I've got these,
all these testimonials.
They,
they're like,
oh,
they're starting to take it seriously now.
Which is really cool.
Well,
that leads me to,
I guess,
sort of like my last question before.
I want you to talk about your book a little bit.
But before we get there,
(20:05):
one thing I keep thinking about,
I mean,
I've known you for a long time.
Maybe you keep it hidden,
but I've never seen you wearing a cape.
So I know that you're not like,
uh,
you know,
immortal superhero.
My,
my question is like,
how is all this sustainable?
Obviously you get a lot of joy from it.
But how do you manage it amongst your other life?
Because,
I mean,
(20:25):
you have a life beyond just being a dungeon master,
I have to believe.
Right.
Yeah.
Oh,
Lucas,
I lost you for a sec.
You there?
Oh,
I'm really,
I'm so sorry.
It just,
it just froze on me.
I'm so sorry.
No,
no problem.
(20:46):
You're good.
You can go ahead if you got the question.
Yeah,
I got the question.
So,
how do I manage everything?
Yeah.
So I do because I love it so much.
I am more than willing to take.
So I'm lucky that my Children now are a little bit older.
So when they're,
if they were younger,
you know,
it would have been impossible,
I think because you're just in that mode where you're always all on call,
(21:09):
quote unquote,
you're always there.
And now that my Children are older and are being able to,
to be more independent,
um,
I'm really lucky that I can take some time in the evening and only,
I mean,
if I didn't love it,
I wouldn't do it because I sit down at night and I'm like planning and I,
but I absolutely love the planning aspect of getting lost in the in D and D and creating these little worlds and different characters and different scenarios because for me,
(21:39):
like the best thing that can happen as a dungeon master and I don't get to be a player that much,
which is fine just because of timing.
But I'm more of a,
I'm like what they call a forever dungeon master,
which I'm absolutely fine with because there's absolutely nothing better than um having a situation and you shouldn't plan too much as ad m anyway.
And once you gather,
(21:59):
but once you gather stuff up,
you've got this bang of stuff in your head as well.
So you don't have to worry too much.
Um But there's nothing better as a dungeon master than uh for me anyway.
Uh Either having like one of those like gasp moments where the players gasp or where they just,
they cannot stop laughing usually,
but it's usually something they've done.
But I've set up the framework for that to happen and I try to build a world where that stuff,
(22:24):
the possibility that the percentage chance of that happening increases exponentially.
I'm trying to like set stuff up funny things that can happen with traps or with,
with weird N PC and stuff like that.
So the payoff is so much worth it.
So regarding like time wise,
it is,
it is a big time thing.
I will be 100% honest,
of course.
(22:44):
Um But I do not mind taking my free,
you know,
hour or so.
Um at night and just like pounding out a few aspects of the,
the,
the,
the thing that I'm building and to be honest as well with the,
when I'm,
when I'm feeling crunched for time,
there are,
there is a website out there called dm's Guild which has a like a huge vault of one shots N pcs and stuff and a lot of the stuff you can buy for like a dollar or they give it away for free and for anybody,
(23:13):
you know,
listening,
if you are interested in building that thing,
you just should access all that stuff.
But at the moment I'm really interested in creating my own stuff as well.
So,
but if I'm a if I'm in a,
in a pinch of time,
I will definitely access that because that is just a lifesaver and as negative as,
like,
a reputation as a place like Reddit gets because I was always,
um,
I was always kind of wary of Reddit just because of what you hear that can go on there.
(23:36):
I don't know.
I love Reddit.
I love,
yeah.
Yeah.
But I just had,
like,
I just,
I just,
I don't know,
maybe I'm an old man.
I was like,
what the internet gather,
like it's the nerd who gather Reddit.
They're my people.
I love them.
I love it.
The D and D Reddit community is the most supportive,
cool,
interesting community I've ever met.
(23:56):
And they just will,
if you ask a question on there,
they will flood you with,
with ideas and things like that.
So I use them a lot actually and just like,
ask questions and anything I create is like here,
go ahead.
If this is useful.
I,
I always try to help out as well,
but I just,
I kind of like reach out to these different communities and even like which I barely use now.
But the Facebook groups are actually quite the DND face group.
(24:19):
Groups are very supportive as well.
So it just,
you just have to find the groups but you can,
you can tap into those to,
to make your life much easier because you don't need to reinvent the wheel with D and D.
There's so much out there,
but I will put some of those resources in our show notes for students to be able to access.
So,
thank you for sharing those.
Um And you know,
(24:39):
before we sign off,
then I guess I would love for you to talk a little bit because you have a new book out,
right?
Like related to all this and I would love for you to chat about it.
Thank you very much.
Yeah,
I'm very lucky that I have a book out called Let's Roll,
which is a guide to setting up tabletop role playing games in a,
in a public or school library.
And it's being published through the American Library Association and a publisher called Fat here in the UK.
(25:05):
But that's all it is.
Like,
what I was thinking about when I wrote the book was because I was getting a lot of people on social media,
Twitter especially saying,
you know,
how do,
how do you run this because you're talking about it all the time.
I got to shut up about it on Twitter.
But uh no,
no,
keep talking about it.
And they were,
(25:25):
I was getting a flood of questions about how do you run it?
I was like,
oh,
there's something here maybe is useful and the goal is to genuinely make it,
like,
genuinely make it useful.
So it's a practical guide,
you know,
here's how I did it.
And I got a bunch of case studies from other schools.
Like here's how they set theirs up and here's how they run theirs.
And here's alternatives to D and D if you feel overwhelmed or time or don't have the time.
(25:47):
So I set up the big thing for me.
The big chunk of the book is like here is,
there's a few things,
there's things on mental health that I,
that I did interviews with mental health professionals and got their information about running the tabletop role playing games.
And then the big part is also like,
here's how I,
here's what you need to do beforehand and what you should do during and what you do after because I do a lot of stuff after with them.
(26:09):
And again,
there is that time element.
But um this is what I've done and this is what I feel like has made it into this kind of like unstoppable machine that is now so cool and kids are running it themselves in the library and it is,
it has really been a huge benefit to not only the library but the school on the whole and,
and that's what the book really is about from start to finish.
(26:30):
Like here's what I did,
here's what worked.
Here's what didn't work kind of like just a step by step,
guide and stuff from other people to help out as well.
So again,
I hope it's really useful,
but that was,
that was the goal from the beginning.
It sounds like it's,
is it out already or forgive me for that?
No,
no,
no,
don't worry about it.
That's fine.
It came out in March and yeah,
(26:51):
it's um I'm going to be,
I mean,
this is just a shameless thing that relevance for the US,
but I'm super excited because I get to talk about it a lot,
but I talk about it a lot like,
like this way,
like online with people,
which is really cool.
But I'm super excited that I'm going to be at this thing in London in June,
end of June called the Barnes Children's Literature Festival,
(27:15):
which is,
it's huge.
It's the biggest festival in Europe for like they've got,
I mean,
I feel completely imposter syndrome.
They got,
you know,
Michael Moore Pergo who wrote Warhorse,
they got Cresta a Coll who wrote How To Train Your Dragon.
They've got all these authors like El mcnichol who's got a book in the US.
It's well now called A Kind of Spark,
(27:35):
which is really cool.
And,
and then there's like me and I'm going to be doing live Dungeons and Dragons for like new people.
They are all going,
I'm going to be at this thing with Lucas Maxwell.
That's what they're saying.
Thank God.
I mean,
it'll be amazing.
But it's the first time I've done D and D live with a group.
Like,
it's for like young families with like ages 9 to 12.
(27:57):
They're going to come and how do we play this game?
What is it all about?
I'm just going to do like a live session and they're gonna play.
So,
and it's gonna be completely chaotic,
but I'll make it fun and it'll be really cool.
So I'm really excited about that.
I can't wait to hear all about it.
That is gonna be amazing.
Oh,
my friend.
Thank you for this time.
This has been a joy for me and I'm so excited for my students to get to know you and to think about how they might use D and D in their own libraries before we sign off,
(28:25):
I always end these conversations by asking you what you're reading.
You know what,
um I just interviewed and,
and got the book,
um,
the,
um,
the book by um Jared Letner who's,
who was in um,
yeah,
Lerner.
Sorry.
Yes.
Yes.
It's my friend.
This is like words,
(28:46):
worlds colliding right now.
A work in progress,
a work in progress,
which is the first novel illustrated.
I just started it yesterday.
And absolutely,
I mean,
I got,
I'm already halfway through it in one sitting,
sitting out on my back porch.
So,
uh it is very good.
It is,
I'm super biased,
but I love it so much and so glad that you're enjoying it too.
It is good.
And he was a great,
(29:07):
a great person to interview as well.
He was really interesting,
really cool.
Very kind.
Thank you so much.
This has been wonderful to my students.
I look forward to hearing your response to everything we've talked about today in this week's discussion thread and until then everyone happy learning.
Hi,
everyone and welcome to another Ru 5 15 Voices of Literacy conversation this week.
It is my pleasure to welcome my friend and longtime Twitter colleague,
Lucas Maxwell Lucas,
although originally from Nova Scotia,
Canada is currently the librarian at Glen Thorn High School in South London.
(00:37):
UK.
We've known each other for a long time and we'll discuss that in our interview.
But Lucas has worked in libraries,
both public and school for over 15 years.
And today we're going to be talking to him about his highly successful and award winning dungeons and Dragons program,
(00:57):
which he has spoken about all over the world and is focused highly on how table games,
specifically role playing games like dungeons and dragons can be used to help create safe spaces in the library,
particularly for neurodivergent learners like Lucas himself.
(01:18):
So I can't wait for you to meet him.
Let's go ahead and get started.
Hi,
Jennifer.
I'm really grateful to be here.
Thank you so much for having me today.
I can't,
I can't remember how long we have been friends and,
and my students will be able to see me putting that in air quotes,
but we've never physically met.
We've just been connected through RPLN for a lot of years now.
(01:40):
A long time.
I mean,
I've been on social media library wise for 10 years.
So,
and I think I came across your accounts pretty early on.
I think I've been there for about 14 years because I'm about 100 years older than you or so.
But I think you're right.
I think we connected early on.
It's been a delight to see all the things that you do with your uh students.
(02:03):
And I want to go ahead and dive in for my students.
Do you mind starting by telling us a little bit about your school?
A no problem.
Thank you.
My school,
the name is Glen Thorne High School and it is in South London,
UK,
kind of like a borough of London,
very populated,
very busy area and the school.
So in the UK,
(02:23):
what they call high school is also called secondary school.
It's a little confusing.
There's not really a lot of middle school or junior high with like I was used to in Canada here in the UK.
So a high school in the UK can have a like,
like our school has ages 11 to 19 in one building and there's about 800 students,
which for me is big,
coming from a small Canadian community and a small school growing up to me,
(02:48):
that's a huge school.
I know there are larger ones,
I'm sure in the US and scattered about,
but it's big and it's busy.
So I'm the librarian there and,
you know,
it's,
it caters to all those students so it's a busy,
busy spot.
Tell me a little bit about your students.
I'm imagining that's a pretty urban area.
It's very urban.
We are essentially in considered in London.
(03:10):
And I mean,
it like,
just to give you context,
I guess if you wanted to get to the London Eye,
the big Ferris Wheel,
it would be maybe a 20 minute train journey into the very heart of London.
So we're like out there,
but it's London's so massive.
So the school,
I mean,
the students themselves,
I mean,
they are and it's been a great experience for me again,
(03:31):
coming from very rural Canada to this,
this school to see students from,
I mean,
every nationality,
every religion,
everything under the sun has been a huge eye opener for me in a really positive way.
So the students that I work with most directly are ages 11 to like 14 because they get to come in the library for these dedicated library classes or lessons that I,
(03:55):
that I run.
So I get to see them right away.
I get to run these introductory,
you know,
introduction to the library lessons.
And,
yeah,
and they are a huge mix.
I mean,
from every,
as you can imagine every country you could name any country,
I think.
And they,
and they would come,
we do have some Canadian and North American students as well.
But a lot of European students,
(04:15):
a lot of students from,
uh China and Japan,
a lot of students from the Middle East and a lot of students from,
um,
you know,
the Asia and I mean,
all over.
Honestly,
it's,
it's really been great to,
to meet them and to be honest,
it sounds like a fascinating but wonderful ecosystem.
And I asked those questions because I'm curious about,
(04:36):
you know,
we're gonna be talking about dungeons and dragons during our interview.
And I'm just curious about,
what about your school population inspired you to bring that into the library before we get into like how it's running?
How it started?
I'm curious about what about your kids made you want to do that?
(04:56):
I mean,
that is,
that is a really cool question.
So about my kids.
I felt like I'm,
I'm kind of,
I don't know if it's,
I don't know how to describe it,
but it's kind of selfish in a way,
in my opinion,
in my own opinion because what I'm doing in my school library,
I've been running,
I've been there for like I said,
10 years now and when I was in high school in junior high,
(05:19):
I didn't have a school library.
There was like a room,
but nobody did anything.
There was nothing ever going on there ever.
And I went in once and I think someone shouted at me or something about something which,
you know,
whatever.
But so it's just like one of those situations.
So everything I do is kind of like what would,
what would,
what would 13 year old Lucas in there?
I love it.
That's why we do comic cons and I fill it with graphic novels and manga and stuff and cool stuff and then I was,
(05:44):
and then I,
I kind of dungeons and dragons has always been in the,
in my life in some regard or another in the background or through the books or whatever.
And it really took a student to kind of just say,
can I run it?
And I was like,
yeah,
of course,
like,
and II,
I did it in the public library in Canada.
I used to,
I work as a teen services librarian in Canada for five years.
(06:06):
So it just,
I guess it was just something that when they said that it kind of like a light bulb,
like,
why haven't I been doing this more?
And I just got back into it really full steam from then on out.
And,
um,
what I'm identifying as,
I'm sure you've seen maybe talking to other people and what I've seen talking to other people is that the game has been just a huge boon and huge amazing benefits for students.
(06:31):
And I didn't clock that right off the bat and I just thought this is like,
just fun.
Cool because when I didn't get to play it a lot as a kid because,
like,
where I grew up there just wasn't any groups.
It was really tricky.
So I had all the books,
you know,
I had all the,
they say all the gear,
no idea.
I just didn't know what I was doing with them and I had all the stuff,
like,
I was making stuff and doing stuff,
but I just didn't know what,
(06:53):
I didn't get to play that much.
So,
a very long rambling answer to your question.
But I could see initially,
I was kind of like that.
It's amazing.
Let's do it.
But it took me a little while to see.
Wow,
this is really having an impact on students.
So,
and it's just exploded from there.
I can't even describe how popular it is.
Says people,
well,
I want to hear all about that.
(07:14):
Like,
I want to know like what it started as and what it looks like now.
But before I let you answer that,
I just have to say 13 year old Jennifer,
it sounds like she would love your library too.
So I,
I quickly planning a vacation to Glen Thorn Secondary School that being said,
uh let's,
let's talk about it.
You know,
a student asked you about it and you were like,
(07:36):
uh why haven't I been doing this?
And so how did it start then?
What did you do to begin with to sort of get the ball or the dye rolling.
Good,
uh,
good question.
So I initially just bought the starter set.
So if anybody listening,
if you want to get started,
that's all you need really is the starter set and it's just like,
uh,
I think it's even like $15 or whatever on Amazon or wherever you buy it,
uh,
go to your local game instead and buy it.
(07:58):
Uh,
uh,
but it's not expensive.
It has everything you need,
need to start.
And I got that and then the student was like,
I want to run it.
Can I run it?
I was like,
of course.
So we got it set up,
had some students interested and just the way life goes that student who was running,
it couldn't do it anymore very early on.
So I said I'll take it on and the rules had changed drastically since I was a kid.
(08:22):
And I was completely,
what is this?
You know,
I was,
I was overwhelmed to be honest because I do struggle with things like that as well.
Like,
so I was just trying to like process all this information and I found it extremely overwhelming,
but I was quickly re kind of like hooked on it.
And I was like,
this is so cool again.
I couldn't and I just was reintroduced to it in that way just because that student couldn't do it.
(08:45):
And I began to be the dungeon master for a group of five kids who were who were 13 at the time.
And I'm now they're now 17 and I'm still running a campaign,
another campaign like this.
Some of them,
this is our final year at the school and we're still the same core group with a few kids added in that group as me as the dungeon master.
(09:10):
But a bunch of those kids and a bunch of other kids have now become dungeon masters as well.
And I mean,
it's grown from those five kids sitting in the library doing it and then we did it all the,
all the time on online over the,
when we were in lockdown as well.
And it's grown from those five kids to,
I mean,
I think we've got about 50 kids now who are involved.
(09:33):
Yeah,
for a library program.
I mean,
that,
and what I say to people is that I've,
I've been running programs for teens for 15 years.
If you count to the public library,
I've never had a program where they never miss like they will not miss a session.
They're obsessed with it.
And if I miss a session,
I do get emails from them sometimes where,
(09:54):
where,
where are you,
what's going on?
So it's grown,
it's exploded in that way.
And like I said,
they,
they,
um they do some of them I can tell like they rely on that setting to,
for a safe,
comfortable space.
So,
um I'm,
I'm really dedicated to it in that regard because I've never seen a program kind of have the impact that this one has.
(10:15):
So that's why I'm,
I'm glad you mentioned about how you've noticed that for some students,
it's a,
it's a safe place for them to,
you know,
commune with others and to be themselves in terms of the,
just the sheer volume of participants and dedication to it.
Um,
(10:35):
along with that,
what do you think the reasons are for its popularity for some kids?
Surely it's a safe place.
But what do you think generally?
Are there other things that have really drawn kids to it?
You think?
I think if we're looking,
you know,
aside from the safety aspect of it,
it is a way for these,
for some kids to what I've,
(10:57):
I've been lucky that I've been able to speak to some people who know a lot more about this,
like mental health experts run it in the States for,
um,
for teens as therapy.
And,
um,
one thing that stood out when I was speaking to them was that for them for a lot of kids.
And I can tell it's for hours as well.
D and D can be something like behavior education,
which is basically just when they,
(11:19):
they know that no matter how horrible their week's been or their day's been,
they know that for an hour on this day and this day and this day that they're going to laugh and they know that there's a dedicated space,
even putting safety aside.
It's more of like,
I'm going to have a relief for this,
this hour with Mr Maxwell and my friends also.
(11:39):
It's been a way for a lot of them to find friends,
let alone,
like finding a safe place.
A lot of them felt like.
And I've had,
you know,
testimonials from parents and students themselves saying the like and they travel together in the library like a little pack,
the ones that I've been and the other ones and they have found a friendship group through this game.
Many of them and I can see that just on my own observation in the library watching them.
(12:04):
And the other thing that's unique.
And I've said this before to other librarians is that when I was in high school and I'm sure in regular high schools or not regular but current high schools is what I'm trying to say when you are 11 to hang out with like a 17 year old.
When I was that age would,
you would never even think of it.
And what we've got is 17 year olds.
(12:26):
Dungeon being the dungeon master for 11 year olds and they are hanging out in the library.
They're I and I use this story a lot because when I was just like at my desk the other day,
it was a little while ago now,
but the 17 year old was running it after school for the 11 year olds and at the end of the session,
one of the 11 year olds came up to her and said I saw you in the corridor the other day,
(12:47):
but I didn't say hi because I didn't want to embarrass you.
And she was like,
you don't have to ever worry about that.
I always say hi.
You know,
and it was like this.
I was like,
oh my God,
we were like,
cool moment and it was so cool.
I know.
And that would be like social death in my life when I was that.
(13:07):
And for that,
and I've never seen,
again,
I've never seen a program kind of like,
combine these things and I've been doing it with,
we ran a Dungeon convention a little mini one on a Saturday where we had a bunch of teachers show up and I mean,
to have a math teacher playing a druid sitting around 5,
11 year olds and they're shouting at him,
you know,
he love,
help us,
you know,
and then the,
the team,
(13:27):
you know,
and he's like panicking.
He said to me,
he said a,
he's never laughed so hard in his life and he's never seen four hours go by that fast in his life.
He ran it for four hours and I mean,
then they want to,
you know,
we're doing another one in June and yeah,
it's just been like to see that.
It just completely flips the whole kind of setting when you've got a teenage dungeon master who's in control and now we've got teens training teachers to be dungeon masters who are interested in the game.
(13:55):
On a lunch hour.
It's like a lunch hour program.
So now the reasons are many.
But I think those are the big ones,
like the safety that,
which we talked about in the friendship groups.
And this idea of,
um,
this idea of this relief,
they can get things out through their characters.
They can get stresses out if they're having a rough week.
You know,
when I,
(14:16):
when I know when I know the wizard is loading up a fireball in a 12 by 12 room,
maybe she's had a rough day or something because she's just like,
I'm just going to blast and it's fun.
That's because there's no real consequences.
It's just a fun silly,
you know,
and I'm running it in a,
in a,
in a very kind of like relaxed way.
There's a lot of,
a lot of jokes,
a lot of horrible jokes.
(14:36):
They know I'm going to tell bad jokes.
They know I'm going to do this and that and,
you know,
it's just,
they know that they're completely imme this and safe and nothing is going to actually bad will ever happen and they won't ever feel judged by what they say or do if they do a silly voice because I'm doing them,
you know,
I'm in control this room and no one is gonna like invade that space.
(14:57):
So I love that.
Well,
I'm so glad you brought up teachers because that was one of my questions is how the adults have reacted,
you know,
um it sounds like you've got some support from your colleagues.
What about your administration and parents and stuff?
So,
yeah,
so when I,
when we went into lockdown was when it really,
I really noticed it,
(15:17):
of course,
and I'm sure a lot of people did as well because I sent out a letter,
they were desperate to play.
We usually were playing at that point like twice a week on a Monday,
Wednesday and Friday lunch hour and they had their online lessons and I sent a letter home to the parents saying,
look,
they've asked if we could play and we upped it to like,
I think it was three or four times a day and I was fully aware of the screen time and things like that.
(15:41):
But we,
um,
we had breaks,
we did it after school,
but we were still on the line and I sent a letter home,
like if the parents were,
you know,
ok with it and they emailed me back and say this is,
you know,
like the funny ones that came back,
like my kid would kill me if I didn't allow them.
And also like this is,
this is the only like this is,
they've told me that this just keeps all the,
(16:01):
like at that time when we didn't know anything about COVID and everything was really scary and they said this is the only thing that is keeping her from,
I think,
from being extremely freaked out and anxious and losing,
losing it.
So,
when I was getting emails like that,
I was like,
ok,
I know I'm happy to do it.
Of course it was because it was helping me as well.
I mean,
it was,
it was like,
so the parents have always been fully on board and they are extremely supportive.
(16:27):
And when we ran the Dungeon Con,
um they,
one of the parents,
you know,
sent their child in with this,
this huge package of like homemade food and stuff for to feed like 50 kids that showed up.
It was absolutely amazing.
And the teachers at first,
the teachers are,
were confused,
you know,
because their kids,
(16:47):
the students were talking about this game constantly and they wanted to know like,
what is it?
And so I would invite them in.
So we've got,
now we've got,
when we run it on like a Wednesday after school with our teen dungeon master,
we've got a little group of teachers now who come to watch it,
which is really cool.
And we've got,
(17:08):
we've got teachers who like I said,
were trained by some of the teen dungeon masters to help out during the Dungeon Kong because they just wanted,
they came,
they took their Saturday from 10 to like we stayed,
ended up for like some of us,
like three pm on the Saturday.
And they are extremely as,
you know,
like teachers are extremely overworked and busy and stressed out.
And here they go on,
they take their Saturday to do this with these kids.
(17:30):
Um And they have seen the benefits of it and the big breakthrough that I just had last week was that I approached my senior leadership team and they are aware of it.
They don't really know what it is.
They're,
but they're super supportive,
which I'm extremely lucky about.
And then I made this little,
put this little pack together and I talked about,
you know,
here are the benefits that I've seen.
(17:51):
Here are the things that they've told me here are the things from parents,
teachers,
et cetera.
And I just got approval for starting in September to run it as like a part of our,
what we call continued professional development for well being for teachers as like a regular thing.
And I'm doing a trial in,
when is it first week of July?
Like with a small group of teachers just to like gather feedback.
(18:14):
I'm going to do like a little one shot,
a little funny one shot.
And I'm actually meeting some tomorrow.
We're going to do some of the teachers tomorrow.
We're going to run a thing that I've written because I'm working with a charity in the UK that,
that wants to run D and D to help neurodivergent youth.
So I'm working on making a basically a one shot dungeon thing adventure,
(18:36):
not really a dungeon but like an adventure set in a book,
bookshop of all places.
That's step by step.
You know,
if you were new to the D Ming and you maybe need to like,
take a little extra time to like work stuff out like I do.
It's all from like,
what,
what would help me?
I need everything kind of like very clearly written out.
So I'm running that and I'm going to like play test it tomorrow with a bunch.
So um it's really,
(18:57):
yeah,
so it's really taken off and the teachers have been absolutely amazing.
So um I'm really excited for the well-being aspect of the,
of the professional development because as you know,
working in schools,
like when you're in a high school as well,
the English department,
they stay with that group.
They are like the math.
They just,
it's just the nature of it.
Very siloed,
very and librarians as well can be isolated and they can be isolated as well.
(19:22):
And this is,
this will bring together.
I've got about eight different departments taking part and um they're going to just work together solving,
it's not just going to be fighting,
it's going to be solving puzzles,
they're going to have to work together and do all this cool stuff.
So,
yeah.
Yeah,
I'm really excited.
So it's been a it's,
that's been a huge breakthrough for me because I,
I just,
I guess,
I just assume,
like,
you sometimes assume senior leadership,
(19:44):
they're gonna be like,
what you're gonna be playing,
you know,
it's just a game or whatever.
But when you show them the benefit,
like,
when I've,
I've written it all down,
I've got these,
all these testimonials.
They,
they're like,
oh,
they're starting to take it seriously now.
Which is really cool.
Well,
that leads me to,
I guess,
sort of like my last question before.
I want you to talk about your book a little bit.
But before we get there,
(20:05):
one thing I keep thinking about,
I mean,
I've known you for a long time.
Maybe you keep it hidden,
but I've never seen you wearing a cape.
So I know that you're not like,
uh,
you know,
immortal superhero.
My,
my question is like,
how is all this sustainable?
Obviously you get a lot of joy from it.
But how do you manage it amongst your other life?
Because,
I mean,
(20:25):
you have a life beyond just being a dungeon master,
I have to believe.
Right.
Yeah.
Oh,
Lucas,
I lost you for a sec.
You there?
Oh,
I'm really,
I'm so sorry.
It just,
it just froze on me.
I'm so sorry.
No,
no problem.
(20:46):
You're good.
You can go ahead if you got the question.
Yeah,
I got the question.
So,
how do I manage everything?
Yeah.
So I do because I love it so much.
I am more than willing to take.
So I'm lucky that my Children now are a little bit older.
So when they're,
if they were younger,
you know,
it would have been impossible,
I think because you're just in that mode where you're always all on call,
(21:09):
quote unquote,
you're always there.
And now that my Children are older and are being able to,
to be more independent,
um,
I'm really lucky that I can take some time in the evening and only,
I mean,
if I didn't love it,
I wouldn't do it because I sit down at night and I'm like planning and I,
but I absolutely love the planning aspect of getting lost in the in D and D and creating these little worlds and different characters and different scenarios because for me,
(21:39):
like the best thing that can happen as a dungeon master and I don't get to be a player that much,
which is fine just because of timing.
But I'm more of a,
I'm like what they call a forever dungeon master,
which I'm absolutely fine with because there's absolutely nothing better than um having a situation and you shouldn't plan too much as ad m anyway.
And once you gather,
(21:59):
but once you gather stuff up,
you've got this bang of stuff in your head as well.
So you don't have to worry too much.
Um But there's nothing better as a dungeon master than uh for me anyway.
Uh Either having like one of those like gasp moments where the players gasp or where they just,
they cannot stop laughing usually,
but it's usually something they've done.
But I've set up the framework for that to happen and I try to build a world where that stuff,
(22:24):
the possibility that the percentage chance of that happening increases exponentially.
I'm trying to like set stuff up funny things that can happen with traps or with,
with weird N PC and stuff like that.
So the payoff is so much worth it.
So regarding like time wise,
it is,
it is a big time thing.
I will be 100% honest,
of course.
(22:44):
Um But I do not mind taking my free,
you know,
hour or so.
Um at night and just like pounding out a few aspects of the,
the,
the,
the thing that I'm building and to be honest as well with the,
when I'm,
when I'm feeling crunched for time,
there are,
there is a website out there called dm's Guild which has a like a huge vault of one shots N pcs and stuff and a lot of the stuff you can buy for like a dollar or they give it away for free and for anybody,
(23:13):
you know,
listening,
if you are interested in building that thing,
you just should access all that stuff.
But at the moment I'm really interested in creating my own stuff as well.
So,
but if I'm a if I'm in a,
in a pinch of time,
I will definitely access that because that is just a lifesaver and as negative as,
like,
a reputation as a place like Reddit gets because I was always,
um,
I was always kind of wary of Reddit just because of what you hear that can go on there.
(23:36):
I don't know.
I love Reddit.
I love,
yeah.
Yeah.
But I just had,
like,
I just,
I just,
I don't know,
maybe I'm an old man.
I was like,
what the internet gather,
like it's the nerd who gather Reddit.
They're my people.
I love them.
I love it.
The D and D Reddit community is the most supportive,
cool,
interesting community I've ever met.
(23:56):
And they just will,
if you ask a question on there,
they will flood you with,
with ideas and things like that.
So I use them a lot actually and just like,
ask questions and anything I create is like here,
go ahead.
If this is useful.
I,
I always try to help out as well,
but I just,
I kind of like reach out to these different communities and even like which I barely use now.
But the Facebook groups are actually quite the DND face group.
(24:19):
Groups are very supportive as well.
So it just,
you just have to find the groups but you can,
you can tap into those to,
to make your life much easier because you don't need to reinvent the wheel with D and D.
There's so much out there,
but I will put some of those resources in our show notes for students to be able to access.
So,
thank you for sharing those.
Um And you know,
(24:39):
before we sign off,
then I guess I would love for you to talk a little bit because you have a new book out,
right?
Like related to all this and I would love for you to chat about it.
Thank you very much.
Yeah,
I'm very lucky that I have a book out called Let's Roll,
which is a guide to setting up tabletop role playing games in a,
in a public or school library.
And it's being published through the American Library Association and a publisher called Fat here in the UK.
(25:05):
But that's all it is.
Like,
what I was thinking about when I wrote the book was because I was getting a lot of people on social media,
Twitter especially saying,
you know,
how do,
how do you run this because you're talking about it all the time.
I got to shut up about it on Twitter.
But uh no,
no,
keep talking about it.
And they were,
(25:25):
I was getting a flood of questions about how do you run it?
I was like,
oh,
there's something here maybe is useful and the goal is to genuinely make it,
like,
genuinely make it useful.
So it's a practical guide,
you know,
here's how I did it.
And I got a bunch of case studies from other schools.
Like here's how they set theirs up and here's how they run theirs.
And here's alternatives to D and D if you feel overwhelmed or time or don't have the time.
(25:47):
So I set up the big thing for me.
The big chunk of the book is like here is,
there's a few things,
there's things on mental health that I,
that I did interviews with mental health professionals and got their information about running the tabletop role playing games.
And then the big part is also like,
here's how I,
here's what you need to do beforehand and what you should do during and what you do after because I do a lot of stuff after with them.
(26:09):
And again,
there is that time element.
But um this is what I've done and this is what I feel like has made it into this kind of like unstoppable machine that is now so cool and kids are running it themselves in the library and it is,
it has really been a huge benefit to not only the library but the school on the whole and,
and that's what the book really is about from start to finish.
(26:30):
Like here's what I did,
here's what worked.
Here's what didn't work kind of like just a step by step,
guide and stuff from other people to help out as well.
So again,
I hope it's really useful,
but that was,
that was the goal from the beginning.
It sounds like it's,
is it out already or forgive me for that?
No,
no,
no,
don't worry about it.
That's fine.
It came out in March and yeah,
(26:51):
it's um I'm going to be,
I mean,
this is just a shameless thing that relevance for the US,
but I'm super excited because I get to talk about it a lot,
but I talk about it a lot like,
like this way,
like online with people,
which is really cool.
But I'm super excited that I'm going to be at this thing in London in June,
end of June called the Barnes Children's Literature Festival,
(27:15):
which is,
it's huge.
It's the biggest festival in Europe for like they've got,
I mean,
I feel completely imposter syndrome.
They got,
you know,
Michael Moore Pergo who wrote Warhorse,
they got Cresta a Coll who wrote How To Train Your Dragon.
They've got all these authors like El mcnichol who's got a book in the US.
It's well now called A Kind of Spark,
(27:35):
which is really cool.
And,
and then there's like me and I'm going to be doing live Dungeons and Dragons for like new people.
They are all going,
I'm going to be at this thing with Lucas Maxwell.
That's what they're saying.
Thank God.
I mean,
it'll be amazing.
But it's the first time I've done D and D live with a group.
Like,
it's for like young families with like ages 9 to 12.
(27:57):
They're going to come and how do we play this game?
What is it all about?
I'm just going to do like a live session and they're gonna play.
So,
and it's gonna be completely chaotic,
but I'll make it fun and it'll be really cool.
So I'm really excited about that.
I can't wait to hear all about it.
That is gonna be amazing.
Oh,
my friend.
Thank you for this time.
This has been a joy for me and I'm so excited for my students to get to know you and to think about how they might use D and D in their own libraries before we sign off,
(28:25):
I always end these conversations by asking you what you're reading.
You know what,
um I just interviewed and,
and got the book,
um,
the,
um,
the book by um Jared Letner who's,
who was in um,
yeah,
Lerner.
Sorry.
Yes.
Yes.
It's my friend.
This is like words,
(28:46):
worlds colliding right now.
A work in progress,
a work in progress,
which is the first novel illustrated.
I just started it yesterday.
And absolutely,
I mean,
I got,
I'm already halfway through it in one sitting,
sitting out on my back porch.
So,
uh it is very good.
It is,
I'm super biased,
but I love it so much and so glad that you're enjoying it too.
It is good.
And he was a great,
(29:07):
a great person to interview as well.
He was really interesting,
really cool.
Very kind.
Thank you so much.
This has been wonderful to my students.
I look forward to hearing your response to everything we've talked about today in this week's discussion thread and until then everyone happy learning.
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