September 15, 2023 • 43 mins
In this episode, Ken Shelton joins us to discuss the concept of Techquity and the role that libraries play in helping all learners have the same access and opportunity to essential tools for learning.
Connect with Ken:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Hi,
friends and welcome to another Voices of Literacy podcast episode for Ru 5 15.
This week,
our guest is Ken Shelton.
What to say about Ken Shelton.
He is not only a highly distinguished educator and leader in the field of education,
(00:36):
but he's also a partner with policy makers at both the state and federal level.
He works with districts and legislators to help craft educational policy around equity and inclusion specific to the work that involves instructional technology as both an educational tool and a field lover for students who may not have the same access and opportunity as others.
(01:05):
He's an accomplished photographer and artist and he is also my friend.
It is an absolute pleasure to welcome him here to chat with us today.
Thank you so much for joining us,
Ken.
I'm so grateful to you for giving us your time.
I'm always gonna give you my time.
Well,
I appreciate your friendship and your advocacy and you're like when I started thinking about who I wanted my students to hear from in the context of how technology can be used to make the world better.
(01:37):
You were top of my list the first person that came to mind because you have been doing this kind of work in pushing educators to think about technology as a tool for good for social good.
Long before anyone else,
you are the first person I ever heard talking about this,
you're still the strongest voice in terms of looking at technology use in this way.
(01:59):
So you're the person I want my students to hear from.
And I'd love if you don't mind starting with you just talking about like,
why is this your true North on your compass?
Why is this the true north that you strive for?
And how is that informed by the technology use that you have seen and experienced in classrooms and libraries over the years?
Right.
(02:20):
Well,
so I,
I think there's a couple of things,
one I go all the way back um quite a ways as far as not just my use of technology,
but I remember when there was a common uh there was a common catchphrase and I think it was used as a uh a marketing term or a marketing uh angle to be honest with you is uh and I don't know the author personally.
So I,
I only can uh interrogate the title of his book,
(02:40):
which was uh Digital Immigrants and Digital Natives.
And I don't know if you Yes.
Yeah,
it was uh you know,
I,
I don't even need to mention the author's name because I,
I was,
I was at the time,
I want to say I was probably the only voice that the rejected that.
And it was,
uh you know,
for your students,
the premise was that our current students are digital natives because they're growing up in a digital world in a digitized environment,
(03:04):
if you will.
And that the rest of us who are not growing up now are digital immigrants,
meaning that we have immigrated into this.
And the reason why I vehemently rejected that is because I,
I was using computers even in my youth,
you got to think,
you got to think that I learned how to do computer programming on a Commodore 64 and this was back in the early eighties.
So none of us at this point are digital immigrants.
(03:27):
All of us are digital natives and the digitized uh resources that we use have grown and evolved.
I had a cell phone before the iphone came out,
I had a nokia 31 50 a Motorola flip.
And so the part of there's a couple of things.
So two angles,
one is dismantling this idea that it is something new and we are ill equipped or incapable of adapting to these new environments.
(03:53):
But then also relying upon the uh native quote unquote usage of technology in today's students.
And so to the point,
you just brought up,
as I always say that yes,
technology should be uh ubiquitous.
It should be prevalent to be universally accessible uh across all dimensions.
Um access,
broadband uh devices,
(04:14):
responsive and relevant and meaningful devices.
Uh And then how we're using it in our learning environments.
But also we can't rely on the fact that just because kids have been using it,
they automatically know what it works and how to use it.
That that's not that,
that is,
that is a,
that is a false narrative that too many educators seem to buy.
But,
but at any rate,
the main point around that is how technology can augment accelerate and amplify learning and representations of learning.
(04:39):
And so that ties in with the term that you are familiar with that I use called equity,
which is uh cooperating educational technologies in a culturally responsive and cultural learning environment to support students development of essential skills and higher order thinking.
That's how I define the equity,
which if you notice that goes way beyond just simply,
oh I have a worksheet.
So let me scan it and put it in Google Drive.
(05:00):
And now I'm going to get that to my students and their,
that's not higher order thinking.
And that's not aligned with a perspective of learner empowerment and Liberator educational experiences.
And I believe like,
correct me if I'm wrong.
One of the things that you've I think noticed over your experience as an educator and working with schools and districts around the country um is a real gap between the way technology is used in that over that spectrum,
(05:27):
meaning those lower order thinking skills to higher order thinking skills and laboratory practices.
A gap between that usage with historically marginalized populations versus more affluent populations.
Can you speak a little bit to that?
Yeah.
So the whole idea is if you think in terms of March of 2020 all the way through September of 2020 the reason why I'm using that six month time frame is March of 2020 was when everything was ok.
(05:59):
We gotta shut things down.
We can't go to school.
It'll only be a couple of months.
We'll see what this,
we'll,
we'll see,
see what this COVID thing is.
Uh oh those of you that have been attempting to evangelize tech for more than a decade,
y'all were kind of right.
Uh We need to pivot on a dime and we need to get tech in the hands of all the kids and we need to have music.
(06:22):
And so of course,
for me,
my whole thing was getting the devices themselves is only one part of a complex equation.
I go.
So that's one the other part that I would share with many of my friends that are superintendents or friends that were uh you know,
executive cabinet members and high,
high ranking officials in districts.
As I said,
you need to do an audit to figure out what kind of con uh uh connectivity the students have as well.
(06:45):
I go because now that they're gonna be learning from home for who knows how long you want to encourage the educated workforce to be mindful of the fact that not every single child is going to have that connection at home.
And then you don't even know what the quality of that connection is.
You know,
there's this thing called digital equity.
And I go and there's a reason why I've been talking for years about digital red lining.
(07:06):
And so you have that going on.
But then once there was the acquisition of everything from chromebooks to tablet devices to laptops was and I don't blame teachers for this by any stretch.
It was OK.
Well,
we need to,
we have to move all of our,
all of our content into uh an L MS like Google classroom or school or one of those.
(07:26):
And you're going to have to learn how to teach remotely.
Now,
keep it in mind.
I have a master's degree in instructional and design slash instructional design and educational technology.
And my whole thing was remote learning slash distance learning is a completely different pedagogical approach than in person and synchronous.
It's completely different.
You can't take in person and synchronous and do the same things,
(07:50):
remote and asynchronous.
They are completely different mechanisms of,
of learning.
And so what what what happened then that still happens now is many districts that do serve a historically scooted and marginalized student population.
Uh They're using technology to support low order thinking,
which is the whole idea around like the digitization of lessons.
(08:13):
So,
for your students,
it's an example of which I've seen this of teachers,
they'll have like a stack of worksheets and they'll scan the worksheets,
put them in Google Drive and then distribute codes to the students and say the students are using tech.
Yeah.
And that's not,
that's not,
that's not,
that's low order thinking.
And that,
that's,
that's a very quick way to disenfranchise a learner.
But,
but,
but in that same context,
(08:35):
my question is never my first question is never.
Why are you doing that?
My first question is always,
can you show me what your professional growth plan has been over the last three years to support the educators in not only using technology but how they're using it to empower the learners.
You see,
because that's where it starts.
You can't expect an outcome if you haven't provided the professional growth supports for the experience that leads to the outcome that you expect.
(08:59):
But the whole idea is to recognize that,
you know,
I I I've seen,
you know,
even,
even in that same context uh with many districts that I've seen.
Thankfully,
they've decided to partner up with me and we've operated from a true thought partnership is I've seen technology weaponized in the sense that,
you know,
you're acting up.
So I'm gonna stick you on a computer.
Think about what that does.
(09:21):
I've also seen the tech and you know,
you're reading two grade levels before be,
be below your current grade.
So I'm going to stick you on a program called Read 1 80.
Which Exposure,
I despise that program.
And I am staunchly against doing that because think about it,
you're providing,
you think you are providing a,
a reading instructional experience that you have relegated to letting the computer do it.
(09:44):
And what you're overlooking is a fact,
fact that that is a very quick way to uh having learners associate reading with a negative experience and not wanna read,
correct.
And then you're also relying on this program that you don't know the demographic of the programmers.
You don't know the demographic of decision makers.
And what I even have done with some folks is I've said,
(10:06):
let's do a quick search through some of the libraries of read 1 80.
And I wanna do a inventory of the authors and the protagonist and I wanna see if the in the demographics of both of those are at least in alignment with the demographics of the student population.
So if you're going to put them on this quote unquote intervention program at a minimum,
their reading experience will serve as a mirror at a minimum at a minimum and does it at right at a minimum?
(10:32):
And do they provide you with those kinds of audits?
Have you seen those audits being done other similar programs?
Not in any formalized capacity?
But what I have done is I've sat down for example.
So I'll,
I'll share with you so that your students know,
I also have a reading instruction certification as well.
Uh And so for me,
(10:53):
because I,
I believe reading is,
is,
is arguably one of the most powerful and Liberator things that you can uh teach a young child to do.
Uh because,
and I know I'm preaching to the choir with this,
but you and I both know the minute I know how to read and I can go into the library or the public library assuming they have an acquiesce to the book band garbage.
Look at what they have at their disposal now.
(11:14):
Yeah,
a whole world.
And it's not just the,
and it's not just the mirror as you,
as you point out as a minimum,
but this concept,
you know,
and I have to give credit to doctor Redeem sinces bishop uh for,
you know,
for uh giving us this metaphor of mirrors,
windows and sliding glass door with,
(11:34):
with the and glass door being the most powerful because you get the opportunity to imagine yourself in a,
in a life that's different from the one that maybe others have framed for you and think about how that is a definitive pathway towards empathy and compassion and liberation and liberation.
But there's a reason why there's a,
(11:55):
on a side note,
there's a reason why people want a lot of these books man because they don't want the students to develop,
they don't want these students to engage in a reading experience that dismantles myopia.
Well,
let's talk about the perfect metaphor for that.
Then as you and I are recording this in 2023 right now.
We,
I I,
in just recent weeks,
we've learned about the Houston independent school district in Texas turning the majority of their school libraries into detention centers.
(12:21):
If that isn't the perfect metaphor for what we're talking about.
I don't know what is.
Yeah.
And that's also a metaphor uh aligned with,
you know,
the school to prison pipeline.
You're,
you're,
you're creating the conditions for the students to be accustomed to what uh a controlled environment is that is punitive.
And uh you know,
I have seen in full disclosure,
I have seen members of the community there uh push back hard core against it,
(12:45):
but they are fighting in uphill battle.
But that doesn't mean you don't fight that battle.
And it is,
uh you know,
to me,
I,
I would look at what are the ways that you can dismantle that and circumvent.
OK,
fine.
You want that turned into a detention center and then we're gonna create reading centers in the community and all those books that you don't want,
we're gonna make sure that those books are all available to all the families.
(13:08):
Um But yeah,
there's a reason why that's the case.
There's a reason why in Florida they have uh rejected or they're,
they're banning books and they're trying to incorporate that god awful curriculum by Prager U which is,
uh,
it's just,
it's gross.
But,
you know,
this is,
this is all,
if you,
if you understand the historical context around education and educational movements,
(13:32):
this is not unusual.
It's happened before,
it's happened outside of this country.
And,
and so this is why,
you know,
for me,
I always,
you know,
what I will do what I do with a lot of district leadership is I always ask him,
how are you empowering your teacher librarians to support the educated workforce to support the students and being able to engage in reading,
both from an instructional perspective,
(13:54):
but also from a joy and personal choice perspective as well.
You know,
I should be able to go into a library and identify books that are with my various content areas classes.
But also books that I could say,
you know,
I want,
there's nothing wrong with reading a book to in the context of,
you know,
I just want to read it because I,
I'm just curious.
That's right.
It shouldn't always be aligned with a learning experience that is accompanied with,
(14:18):
you know,
dare I say a five paragraph summary,
that's it.
And this is where I,
I love that you're circling back to libraries here because this is where libraries become so critically important in this work because there's so many different purposes for reading.
There's so many different reasons why we pick up a book or why we read a instruction manual or why we might read the lyrics to our favorite,
(14:41):
you know,
rap artist,
et cetera.
All those things,
there's so many different reasons and none of them have to do with finding the main idea of the paragraph or figuring out which multi answer to which multiple choice question,
et cetera.
And so when we associate reading with those things with assessment,
only in school,
what we do is we generate may be a generation that's semi OK at taking tests,
(15:04):
although the data certainly doesn't bear that out.
But also for sure,
we create a generation that doesn't see any purpose for reading beyond that assessment and libraries can be an anecdote to that or excuse me,
an antidote to that because we can provide that context in which readers see the written word as being important in other ways that being said,
(15:24):
I want to circle back is something you said earlier.
Um It's so that you can speak to this idea of equity in libraries.
You were mentioning how when we all pivoted to digital learning in 2020 how it's so important for us to understand that just giving kids a device is not enough.
But there's lots of other questions that we have to ask and you and I are having this conversation at the time.
(15:47):
I couldn't help think about my own mother and what might have happened if that,
that if I had been a middle schooler or an elementary school schooler in 2020 my mom who was a single mother,
who didn't graduate from high school,
who worked two and three jobs her entire life.
If my school had sent me home with a chromebook,
(16:09):
et cetera,
even if we had had broadband at home,
my mother did not have the capacity even the energy to assist me with school,
work at home.
There would have been no support beyond the technology there.
And not because my mother didn't want the best for me,
not because my mother didn't want to help me,
but because she was working or exhausted or et cetera,
(16:32):
et cetera.
And so I think about public libraries and school libraries and how we bridge that gap,
how that has to be a part of this equity conversation because all we do is talk about the technology,
but technology is only as good as the humans who support it,
the humans who support it.
Uh We have to interrogate the humans that design these platforms.
(16:54):
We have to interrogate um um the goal of the different platforms.
We also have to keep in mind that um the library,
let let's go back to your and I align with what you're saying,
I have 22 distinct responses that so one,
let's circle back to Houston ID Library is the only physical location on on a school campus.
(17:18):
The only one that is democratized,
the only one.
And there's a reason,
there's a reason why they didn't say we're going to get at a detention center.
They said we're gonna convert the library to a detention center.
That is intentional.
It's gross.
It's negligent.
And of course,
it's on purpose.
(17:38):
By the way,
there's a reason why there,
there's a reason why it's Houston Isdisd,
think about the student population.
And there's a reason why they selected the libraries because what's one of the most definitive ways that you can uh essentially disenfranchise a learner,
you take away their ability to take ownership and agency over their own learning.
That's what a library does.
Now going to your,
your reference to your personal uh background,
(18:01):
there's the added layer of the fact that,
you know,
the,
it's,
it's one of the components of honesty.
It's one of the components of our system that is antiquated and needs to be completely dismantled is this whole idea around learning has to occur both inside and outside of the school day,
but yet still controlled by a school representative.
I staunched him against homework and I've,
(18:23):
I've had all the arguments about it and I did it my first few years when I was a teacher because quote unquote,
that's the way we've always done it.
And then I started to see it for what it is.
And it,
it reminds me of I'm trying to pull it up on a slide so I can uh,
re,
uh,
read it off to you.
But I have a quote from one of my personal heroes,
James Baldwin.
(18:43):
And it reminds me of my experiences,
uh,
both as a student but also as an educator.
Uh,
and it's from his talk to teachers,
I would recommend your students read that it was written in 1963 and you just replace,
uh,
Khrushchev or the Soviet Union with America and the Moms for Liberty and watch how it makes sense.
(19:05):
But the,
yeah,
exactly.
And that was in 1963 by the way.
But the quote is,
the paradox of education is precisely this.
That as one begins to become conscious,
one begins to examine the society in which he or she is being educated and that whole consciousness.
So going back to the Homer thing one,
I,
I,
I always,
I love sharing a story of how,
(19:26):
uh,
you know,
my A P English class when I was in high school.
I never did the homework because I got a s on all the exams.
It's kind of like,
you know,
I would,
I,
I think it would be cool for you all to have a class discussion around.
Um,
you know,
some subject matters,
you just get it.
I,
I always describe it as,
you know,
sometimes I can read the matrix code.
I know there's all these little symbols but I can see what it is.
(19:47):
That was the case with that class.
Um,
never mind the fact that I,
I had issues with some of the things that the teacher would do,
uh,
like requiring us to read out loud,
Huckleberry Finn,
which I noticed that some of my classmates were overly eager to read certain sections of that book.
I got up and walked out of class,
but the bottom line is,
I kind of knew this.
(20:07):
So my point is I didn't do homework because I got A's on all my in class assessments and I still got a B in class because the teacher said I didn't do homework.
So now I go back to your example is the whole idea around.
One is to recognize that um that school is a game.
And if you incorporate homework and you expect if your expectations are the same of your students,
(20:27):
when they are on campus as they are,
when they're off campus,
then you really need to start to interrogate that,
that stream of thought.
Also,
it's the whole idea around,
you know,
because you all are uh teacher librarians,
it's the whole idea around and you and I think have talked about this.
Uh and especially when it comes to technology is we have to dismantle what people define as reading.
(20:48):
I still get into arguments with people who tell me that audio books is not real reading.
There's so much research and data around this.
It's such a silly argument at this point,
but they don't.
But but,
but listen,
you're the media literacy person,
they engage in misinformation.
I don't think they're being intentionally deceitful.
What I think they are doing is they're prioritizing their myopia and their comfort over the fact that,
(21:13):
yeah,
it's ok to admit that you are wrong in this case.
Audio books,
I go,
I go,
I,
I've explained.
I said,
let's look at reading from a strictly a cognitive perspective.
If you are consuming words,
I'm sorry,
you're consuming,
consuming uh syllabic context that is formed in the words,
that words together form a sentence,
sentences,
form paragraph,
paragraphs form chapters,
chapters form a novel.
(21:34):
And there's a whole idea of a story and an idea that the author has captured in that capacity.
Now,
whether you consume that with your eyes or your ears cognitively and neuroscience backs is it's still the same.
So,
so,
so,
so the whole idea around that goes into how are we using tech to dismantle,
you know,
make it Ecuador.
How are we using tech to dismantle barriers?
(21:55):
This is why I talk about a number of different platforms to do that.
But even in the context that you shared as far as the fact that your mother um was not necessarily in a position to provide uh resource supports for you in the home.
Had you been given a computer and said,
go do these things there.
We got to reframe and rethink all of these things.
And I,
I don't,
I don't blame the individuals,
(22:16):
but I also know that individuals make up systems and we're either a perpetuated of these oppressive systems or we are a dismantler of them.
And,
and the dismantle part is the harder part.
But guess what it's needed and it's necessary.
I don't know if you,
my students will know.
So students listen up here,
I don't know,
Ken if you know the work of Michael Hallman who's a public librarian in Memphis,
(22:37):
but uh a person I super admire and I'm gonna send you the link to his TED talk after our interview is over.
But my students know the work of Michael and one of the things that he talks about is libraries as bridge builders.
And in that,
that context,
what he he talks about libraries are not full of books,
they're full of bridge and those bridges,
they may not dismantle a barrier,
(23:00):
but they know the way around it over the top over the,
you know,
if we can dismantle a barrier,
that is the primary goal.
But if we can't,
we must build a bridge around it so that therefore those people that we serve don't have to be stopped or halted by that barrier.
To me,
this is an incredible metaphor for life,
(23:21):
great work because sometimes we're in a system,
especially new librarians like the ones that we're talking to today,
who don't have capital at their school yet,
who are brand new.
And what do we know about brand new teachers.
Can they often assimilate to whatever the,
you know,
culture is,
et cetera?
Yes.
So how then can we whether we're talking about the context of tech?
(23:43):
But I think particularly the context of tech,
how do we build those bridges is over and around those barriers if we don't have the capital or even the skills yet?
Or the understanding the knowledge all of that to dismantle them yet?
Because sometimes just the building of that bridge shows those in power that there's another way that is equally effective.
(24:05):
So for in the context,
let's say of homework that you're talking about or other uh philosophies or,
or um things that just might be in place in their school or their public library that existed for a long time.
One way that librarians can build a bridge around that is to provide those supports at school,
right?
So that folks don't,
(24:25):
kids don't have to do homework,
they can just come to the library and do it with someone there to help support them.
What other ways can we use tech in that way to build those bridges around um those barriers?
Are there any ideas that come to mind for you?
Yeah,
I mean,
I would say where while I'm in agreement with you,
(24:48):
this is one of those rare occasions where you and I are probably not,
we're in the same book but not on the same page.
OK.
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna present it in this capacity.
So let's go back to mirrors one of those sliding glass doors.
Yes,
in some cases.
And ideally when students walk through that sliding glass door,
they see the bridge that's been built and then they go across that bridge.
(25:10):
But ultimately,
those bridges are addressing a symptom,
not a disease.
And so,
and the reason why I say that is homework is a disease.
Mhm.
And so,
uh,
uh,
asking,
relying upon or encouraging a teacher librarian to make the library space available for homework.
All that does is,
is,
is address a symptom.
(25:30):
The disease is the assigning of homework period.
And,
and,
and,
and,
and,
and I,
I've had,
I believe me,
I've had the arguments.
Oh,
it prepares kids for college.
No,
it doesn't because you don't have class every day in college.
You're not in school all day.
Uh,
oh,
it teaches them responsibility.
Ok.
So let's talk about that responsibility.
Are you assuming responsibility for that child?
Which means that when they go to college,
(25:51):
are you going to pay their fees and their tuition as well?
Like for you to,
uh,
take ownership over and Dominion over what's teaching a kid responsible and what isn't,
how about teaching the kids how to assert their own voice and their own agency?
They don't need you to teach them responsibility.
You're not their adult caregiver.
So,
so that's,
that,
that,
(26:11):
that's,
that's one part of it.
The other part that I would share.
And this is why I said you wanna,
uh,
like mine,
this is just where my,
my thing deviates because there's so many things that are reactionary and address a symptom in education rather than dismantling the disease.
It reminds me and I hope you share this with,
with,
um,
with your students.
Is that graphic of,
uh,
you know that equity,
equity graphic?
(26:32):
Ok.
Let me just share.
Can I can I can this be our brave space and I be authentic.
Yes.
Yes,
please do.
So it's not a coincidence that I see a lot of white educators love that graphic.
And they talk about how this is,
this is a quality where they all get the boxes and this is equity where the box is.
And so far I believe I'm the only one who says,
(26:53):
yeah,
I not only do I hate that graphic,
that graphic is just a remix of an existing structure.
I go think about why do you even need those boxes?
Oh,
because there's a fence there.
Well,
how about this?
You tear down the fence now.
You don't need the boxes fence.
It's what existed across so many systems in education.
Ok,
so I love that we're having this conversation.
(27:13):
All right,
because I think again,
you and I are on,
you may not think we're on the same page.
I think we really are.
And that is because most of the time.
Yes,
I think so too.
So 99.9% in my,
my students then who are brand new to the field,
who are coming into a new school,
maybe don't have a continuing contract,
etcetera feel it's a huge risk to just start tearing down the fences.
(27:36):
Ok.
So is it fair to say that they can do both that they can try to lift their students around those fences while also learning how to ask the questions or do the work.
It's a,
it's a both end.
It's not a binary.
Uh And so I,
and,
and so let me give you uh so here's one of my receipts.
(27:59):
Let me give you a prime example.
So several of the districts that I worked with over the last couple of years,
I've literally said to them.
OK.
Uh I'm,
I,
I'm reading the room and it's only a matter of time before you get inundated with book band challenges.
And I go so may I see your existing book band policy?
(28:21):
That's it.
And then,
but this is actually a good thing I wanna say in all,
but one instance they didn't have one.
And so I said,
OK,
so now here's where we play chess.
It's coming.
So we're gonna develop a book band policy and I'll give you what I'm gonna share with you because I think this will be important for your students to hear this part.
(28:43):
These are the core conditions of every single policy recommendation I've had,
I've made around book bans all of the following.
So number one,
in order to ban uh to institute a challenge of a book,
you must put down on the form your name and your home address.
No book challenges will be accepted or reviewed if you don't live within the physical boundaries of the school or even within the district.
(29:09):
And because I've seen that as well where people who don't live in the district,
they'll go and they'll challenge books in the district.
Pause,
pause.
Let me just say we know that over 60% of book challenges from last year were filed by the same 11 people who were paid to do it,
11 people are responsible for over 60%.
Go on.
So see,
so you see how I've already circumvented that you can't,
you can't challenge a book if you,
(29:31):
if you don't even live in the district and within the boundary of the school.
So that's number one,
you have to put your name and your home address on there.
And there's a reason why I said you have to do that as well and I'll get to that in a moment.
Number two,
name and title the title and the author of the book.
Number three,
what content you find in the book,
problematic specific pages where you find it problematic,
(29:54):
who it can harm and then also what is a thematic approach of the book?
And then you have to offer an alternate title that's aligned with that same thematic approach and then identify what is the unintended consequence of the removal of the book and what is the anticipatory benefit of replacing it with this other book?
Then the book review Bookman committee has to be a minimum,
(30:15):
an English language arts teacher,
a minimum of at least one teacher librarian,
a minimum of at least one site administrator that site.
And then usually a district officer like the who's ever in charge of curriculum and instruction and then an assistant superintendent for ed services,
that's your committee.
And then once a book band challenge has been instituted and a decision is made,
no further challenges to that book can occur for five years.
(30:38):
I love all of that.
Can I add one thing that I would that I would add to that policy is when I do the same work with um librarians,
the one other I,
I,
everything that you've said,
absolutely check,
check,
check,
check,
check.
And I also ask them to write out what the goal of the policy is in alignment with what the district says its mission and goal is,
(31:05):
that's it.
So if you're saying your district is future ready or it is to prepare all learners,
then the goal of this policy has to be to increase student access to instructional materials that prepare them for this.
So that,
that way we,
yeah,
that way we know going into the challenge that the goal is to increase access,
(31:27):
not limited.
Correct.
And that's why you can't.
In other words,
I always said it cannot be a reductive thing.
In other words,
you ban a book and that book is gone fine.
You want this book gone,
then you need to give me an alternate title and you better know what the thematic approach is.
So I've done that.
Um And also,
you know why I have them put their name and address because every book Man challenge uh is uh it,
it,
(31:48):
it can be subjected to a freedom of information Act request.
So you know who's gonna challenge to it.
And a lot of times there is power and,
and,
and the folks that do that and be able to hide behind anonymity and that strips them of that,
that power.
And if you're going to do it,
it needs to be part of public record,
which means that if I'm a parent in that community,
I can do an open records request and I can look and see who in this community is challenging this book.
(32:11):
Now,
full disclosure,
I am not for any book challenges by any stretch.
I do know that there are plenty of books that are problematic.
I just shared one with you when I was at school.
Huckleberry Finn is extremely problematic for me.
So as to Kill a Mockingbird and quite a few others that,
that uh perpetuate uh racist tropes or uh you know,
uh false narratives,
but you can even teach those books if long as it's within the right context,
(32:35):
I am not for removing the books.
I'm for adding.
If your library has 10,000,
the goal should be to make it 20,000.
But,
but you know,
the whole idea that I'm mentioning even that for your students is part of that right?
There is a way of doing both getting over that fence,
but also dismantling it because see,
here's a bookman challenge,
a fence.
So how do I get over it?
(32:55):
I get in front of it by creating this challenge.
But I've also dismantled it because I know that should a challenge go through.
You got to do a whole lot of homework and give me an alternative before it's even considered.
And I go in and here's the thing,
every single district that I have had the privilege of doing that work with,
guess how many Bookman challenges they've had doughnuts.
(33:16):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Because now won't you have to do all of this work?
Yeah,
they're not,
they don't wanna do it.
And that's where I always say that some policies need to have enough steps in it that it's not the steps will serve both as a deterrent,
but also the steps will serve as a way of if this is what you wanna do,
then you've got to give us all of this information.
(33:37):
And my guess is that a majority you mentioned that 60% by the same 11 people.
How much you wanna bet that all the book I would,
I would,
I would be willing to bet that 100% of the books that those 11 people have challenged,
they haven't even read any of them.
Oh,
that's it.
And the vast majority of them um are either by or reflect the stories of mar marginalized communities.
(33:59):
So there's a clear agenda here.
This is not about protecting Children,
it's about silencing some voices.
Correct,
correct.
Um And then also,
you know,
I,
I hope you all have a discussion around it that goes into the whole idea if you understand the historical context of the publishing industry as a whole.
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
And that is something that we talk about very explicitly.
(34:20):
Um in my young adult literature course,
we talk all about the publishing industry.
So now let's circle back to the basis of our conversation.
Think about all of those antiquated things that exist that create that erect those fences.
And now how does technology dismantle those fences?
How does technology give us access to an author?
How does it,
how does it,
(34:40):
how does it give us access to?
Uh I'll give you an example.
A friend of mine up north,
I believe they even know her.
So the author of the 57 bus,
uh yes,
they know her and they were reading that book and they,
you know,
and part of the context they were discussing,
you know,
like why was this part of the story?
What was the conflict?
Was it,
(35:00):
you know,
all the fundamental and foundational components to uh you know,
reading comprehension and,
and synthesizing it into relevant context.
But the beauty of the tech was they just reached out and,
and I,
I want to say that that my friend is a,
that,
that she knows her,
like their friends.
Anyway,
the whole point was ok.
So we've got our thoughts and we've done this.
So what she did was she invited her and then the author,
(35:22):
that author ended up video chatting with the class and do that without.
Mhm.
And that's where it,
it,
the,
the,
the dialogue that the students had became far more rich and far more detailed because now the person whose words you just consumed and interpreted and synthesized into your own meaning and your own learning,
you're now talking to them.
(35:43):
And so,
and it reminds me of all the books that I read,
you know,
when I was in school where it's like,
you know,
what do you think the author meant?
Well,
guess what,
when you're using a more relevant and contemporary text,
you don't even need to,
to interpret what you think the author meant.
You can do that.
But you can also guess what?
Talk to the author.
That's right.
You can ask him.
That's exactly,
you can ask him,
you can ask him.
(36:04):
And that,
that's why I know it's a,
it's a hot button thing,
but that's why I always ask uh el A teachers especially,
you know,
what percentage of the books that you require for reading have been published in the last 20 years.
And again,
this goes back to the historical context of the publishing industry and whose voices have been continued to be silenced or,
or,
or marginalized at the expense of us getting those at minimum,
(36:27):
those windows and sliding glass doors.
But for me,
this is another,
this is a great way before we start wrapping up because I know we need to.
Um but this is another way to dismantle those fences and also build bridges around them.
If you are working in a school or in a community as a public or school librarian where you know,
some of those older antiquated texts are still being required.
(36:48):
If students in high school are still being asked to read,
to Kill a Mockingbird,
et cetera,
et cetera,
then your job is can be to curate those lists of modern texts that you not only give to the teacher but that you display and advertise and make available to students.
So you are showing the path for uh a more Liberator uh collection.
(37:08):
You are showing an updated canon where the thematics are the same,
but the voices are much more broad and much more diverse representation.
Correct,
correct,
correct,
correct.
It,
it,
it just it has to be.
And uh you know,
I,
I know we're,
we're getting at time with our recording,
but I,
I,
I'll just uh because I have the slide put up on my screen here and I,
(37:29):
I'll,
I'll give you an example.
Uh And this is good for your,
your students to hear this.
So,
in my A P American class and my A P English class,
um all the authors that I was uh required to read um and not a single one of them look like me,
not a single one.
Thankfully.
Um You know,
you mentioned that uh I believe you mentioned your,
your mom didn't go to college.
(37:49):
You were first going to go to college.
My mom didn't even finish high school.
I was first generation to finish high school.
Got it.
So what,
what,
what,
what's fortunate for me,
what you I think it's important for your students to know that I am a,
a uh a black male.
I'm actually fourth generation in my family to go to college.
You see,
that's a stereotype that,
that I love dismantling is the assumption.
(38:09):
Oh,
you must be no fourth and in fact fourth generation and all,
but one of us have an advanced degree.
The only one who doesn't have an advanced degree is my,
my uh my younger half brother,
that's it.
All of us have advanced degrees.
So the reason why I say that it goes back to what you mentioned about your parents and,
and the whole thing that I would encourage your students to look at,
(38:29):
how do I become the catalyst for?
Uh again,
those mirrors windows sliding out doors because I'm gonna read off to you the titles of all the books that my dad had me read that were never a signed in my A P American Lit or my A P English class number one Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison.
Number two.
The Fire next time by James Baldwin.
(38:50):
Number three.
Native Son by Richard Wright.
I also read Black Boy,
but native son was the main one.
Number four.
I know why the Caged Bird sings by Maya Angelou.
And I'm intentionally leaving this next one as the last one because I think it changed the course of my life as a 17 year old.
And then I also recently listened to the audiobook version uh that the narrator,
(39:12):
the reader is Lawrence Fishburn.
So think about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's,
it's the autobiography of Malcolm X.
Mhm.
And so when I look at those books and then recently I read a book written by a professor.
I really like him.
Doctor Penil Joseph,
he's a professor at the University of Texas there in Austin.
And he wrote a book called The Sword and The Shield.
(39:33):
And it was uh it's all about the similarities and the parallels and it's called The Sword and The Shield.
Uh The Revolutionary Lives of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Junior because think about the narratives that show that they were polar opposites and they were different and they were different.
Blah,
blah,
blah,
blah,
blah,
uh maybe at the start.
But later in their lives those tho those quote unquote parallel tracks they converged.
(39:54):
Yeah.
And that's why you can't see it or your,
your students won't see it.
But that's why I have AAA picture up in my home office of that one time when the two of them met.
It was only once but you Yes,
but and it was brief.
But if you read his book,
you find out that Malcolm X for years had wanted to go and uh and have conversations with Martin Luther King junior and would show up at the southern property uh leadership Center.
(40:22):
Uh And he had many conversations with Coretta Scott King.
But Martin Luther King was constantly and always,
you know,
out and about doing things.
So they never did.
But my main point around that was going back to circling all the way back to the start.
Those were my mirrors.
Those were the things that affirm who I am as a young black male growing up in our society.
Those were the books that provided that literally,
(40:43):
that quote that I shared earlier from James Baldwin.
But the,
the,
the what I would say,
the,
the unfortunate part to that is every single one of my classmates was deprived of an opportunity for a window and a sliding glass door because those books were never assigned to that and because they may or may not have had the support at home,
(41:06):
either someone who was able or willing to provide those with those supplementary materials and listen up students.
That's where you come in.
That is where you connect.
This is why I love talking with you.
Yeah,
I love you.
That's where librarian you want to consider.
OK,
we can wait and rely on it to happen at home or I can take ownership over this and be a catalyst for looking at,
(41:33):
like you said,
looking at the reading list,
finding uh comparable uh books that are aligned with the canon that the teachers want to teach and then also reaching out to individuals,
learners and saying,
hey,
so what,
what do you think about yourself and what's important to you from an identity perspective,
from a dreams perspective,
from,
you know,
what do you want to be?
And then I'm gonna connect you.
I'm gonna be that bridge and I'm gonna connect you with a book that can serve as a uh a,
(41:55):
a reading affirmation for you.
Um whether it be that mirror,
that window or that sliding glass door.
I it's,
I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours.
But I,
you know,
we've had these conversations well without being recorded many times,
but I wanna be respectful of your time.
So I wanna thank you for giving us all of these ideas,
(42:17):
but also some practical uh resources for helping my students begin to tear down those fences and build bridges around them if necessary.
Um My students will have access to all of your contact information,
your uh social,
yeah,
your social network,
uh handles,
et cetera and your website.
Um I encourage them.
(42:38):
One of the ways that technology can help us as librarians make the world better is they enable us to connect not only with authors like Dasa Slater,
but also with practitioners like Ken Shelton.
So that we can continue our learning to become better,
to be um more educated and also to grow our power as people whose job it is to make the world better.
So thank you my friend and thank you to my students.
(43:00):
I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts on everything Ken shared today and I will see you in our discussion,
Fred.
Hi,
friends and welcome to another Voices of Literacy podcast episode for Ru 5 15.
This week,
our guest is Ken Shelton.
What to say about Ken Shelton.
He is not only a highly distinguished educator and leader in the field of education,
(00:36):
but he's also a partner with policy makers at both the state and federal level.
He works with districts and legislators to help craft educational policy around equity and inclusion specific to the work that involves instructional technology as both an educational tool and a field lover for students who may not have the same access and opportunity as others.
(01:05):
He's an accomplished photographer and artist and he is also my friend.
It is an absolute pleasure to welcome him here to chat with us today.
Thank you so much for joining us,
Ken.
I'm so grateful to you for giving us your time.
I'm always gonna give you my time.
Well,
I appreciate your friendship and your advocacy and you're like when I started thinking about who I wanted my students to hear from in the context of how technology can be used to make the world better.
(01:37):
You were top of my list the first person that came to mind because you have been doing this kind of work in pushing educators to think about technology as a tool for good for social good.
Long before anyone else,
you are the first person I ever heard talking about this,
you're still the strongest voice in terms of looking at technology use in this way.
(01:59):
So you're the person I want my students to hear from.
And I'd love if you don't mind starting with you just talking about like,
why is this your true North on your compass?
Why is this the true north that you strive for?
And how is that informed by the technology use that you have seen and experienced in classrooms and libraries over the years?
Right.
(02:20):
Well,
so I,
I think there's a couple of things,
one I go all the way back um quite a ways as far as not just my use of technology,
but I remember when there was a common uh there was a common catchphrase and I think it was used as a uh a marketing term or a marketing uh angle to be honest with you is uh and I don't know the author personally.
So I,
I only can uh interrogate the title of his book,
(02:40):
which was uh Digital Immigrants and Digital Natives.
And I don't know if you Yes.
Yeah,
it was uh you know,
I,
I don't even need to mention the author's name because I,
I was,
I was at the time,
I want to say I was probably the only voice that the rejected that.
And it was,
uh you know,
for your students,
the premise was that our current students are digital natives because they're growing up in a digital world in a digitized environment,
(03:04):
if you will.
And that the rest of us who are not growing up now are digital immigrants,
meaning that we have immigrated into this.
And the reason why I vehemently rejected that is because I,
I was using computers even in my youth,
you got to think,
you got to think that I learned how to do computer programming on a Commodore 64 and this was back in the early eighties.
So none of us at this point are digital immigrants.
(03:27):
All of us are digital natives and the digitized uh resources that we use have grown and evolved.
I had a cell phone before the iphone came out,
I had a nokia 31 50 a Motorola flip.
And so the part of there's a couple of things.
So two angles,
one is dismantling this idea that it is something new and we are ill equipped or incapable of adapting to these new environments.
(03:53):
But then also relying upon the uh native quote unquote usage of technology in today's students.
And so to the point,
you just brought up,
as I always say that yes,
technology should be uh ubiquitous.
It should be prevalent to be universally accessible uh across all dimensions.
Um access,
broadband uh devices,
(04:14):
responsive and relevant and meaningful devices.
Uh And then how we're using it in our learning environments.
But also we can't rely on the fact that just because kids have been using it,
they automatically know what it works and how to use it.
That that's not that,
that is,
that is a,
that is a false narrative that too many educators seem to buy.
But,
but at any rate,
the main point around that is how technology can augment accelerate and amplify learning and representations of learning.
(04:39):
And so that ties in with the term that you are familiar with that I use called equity,
which is uh cooperating educational technologies in a culturally responsive and cultural learning environment to support students development of essential skills and higher order thinking.
That's how I define the equity,
which if you notice that goes way beyond just simply,
oh I have a worksheet.
So let me scan it and put it in Google Drive.
(05:00):
And now I'm going to get that to my students and their,
that's not higher order thinking.
And that's not aligned with a perspective of learner empowerment and Liberator educational experiences.
And I believe like,
correct me if I'm wrong.
One of the things that you've I think noticed over your experience as an educator and working with schools and districts around the country um is a real gap between the way technology is used in that over that spectrum,
(05:27):
meaning those lower order thinking skills to higher order thinking skills and laboratory practices.
A gap between that usage with historically marginalized populations versus more affluent populations.
Can you speak a little bit to that?
Yeah.
So the whole idea is if you think in terms of March of 2020 all the way through September of 2020 the reason why I'm using that six month time frame is March of 2020 was when everything was ok.
(05:59):
We gotta shut things down.
We can't go to school.
It'll only be a couple of months.
We'll see what this,
we'll,
we'll see,
see what this COVID thing is.
Uh oh those of you that have been attempting to evangelize tech for more than a decade,
y'all were kind of right.
Uh We need to pivot on a dime and we need to get tech in the hands of all the kids and we need to have music.
(06:22):
And so of course,
for me,
my whole thing was getting the devices themselves is only one part of a complex equation.
I go.
So that's one the other part that I would share with many of my friends that are superintendents or friends that were uh you know,
executive cabinet members and high,
high ranking officials in districts.
As I said,
you need to do an audit to figure out what kind of con uh uh connectivity the students have as well.
(06:45):
I go because now that they're gonna be learning from home for who knows how long you want to encourage the educated workforce to be mindful of the fact that not every single child is going to have that connection at home.
And then you don't even know what the quality of that connection is.
You know,
there's this thing called digital equity.
And I go and there's a reason why I've been talking for years about digital red lining.
(07:06):
And so you have that going on.
But then once there was the acquisition of everything from chromebooks to tablet devices to laptops was and I don't blame teachers for this by any stretch.
It was OK.
Well,
we need to,
we have to move all of our,
all of our content into uh an L MS like Google classroom or school or one of those.
(07:26):
And you're going to have to learn how to teach remotely.
Now,
keep it in mind.
I have a master's degree in instructional and design slash instructional design and educational technology.
And my whole thing was remote learning slash distance learning is a completely different pedagogical approach than in person and synchronous.
It's completely different.
You can't take in person and synchronous and do the same things,
(07:50):
remote and asynchronous.
They are completely different mechanisms of,
of learning.
And so what what what happened then that still happens now is many districts that do serve a historically scooted and marginalized student population.
Uh They're using technology to support low order thinking,
which is the whole idea around like the digitization of lessons.
(08:13):
So,
for your students,
it's an example of which I've seen this of teachers,
they'll have like a stack of worksheets and they'll scan the worksheets,
put them in Google Drive and then distribute codes to the students and say the students are using tech.
Yeah.
And that's not,
that's not,
that's not,
that's low order thinking.
And that,
that's,
that's a very quick way to disenfranchise a learner.
But,
but,
but in that same context,
(08:35):
my question is never my first question is never.
Why are you doing that?
My first question is always,
can you show me what your professional growth plan has been over the last three years to support the educators in not only using technology but how they're using it to empower the learners.
You see,
because that's where it starts.
You can't expect an outcome if you haven't provided the professional growth supports for the experience that leads to the outcome that you expect.
(08:59):
But the whole idea is to recognize that,
you know,
I I I've seen,
you know,
even,
even in that same context uh with many districts that I've seen.
Thankfully,
they've decided to partner up with me and we've operated from a true thought partnership is I've seen technology weaponized in the sense that,
you know,
you're acting up.
So I'm gonna stick you on a computer.
Think about what that does.
(09:21):
I've also seen the tech and you know,
you're reading two grade levels before be,
be below your current grade.
So I'm going to stick you on a program called Read 1 80.
Which Exposure,
I despise that program.
And I am staunchly against doing that because think about it,
you're providing,
you think you are providing a,
a reading instructional experience that you have relegated to letting the computer do it.
(09:44):
And what you're overlooking is a fact,
fact that that is a very quick way to uh having learners associate reading with a negative experience and not wanna read,
correct.
And then you're also relying on this program that you don't know the demographic of the programmers.
You don't know the demographic of decision makers.
And what I even have done with some folks is I've said,
(10:06):
let's do a quick search through some of the libraries of read 1 80.
And I wanna do a inventory of the authors and the protagonist and I wanna see if the in the demographics of both of those are at least in alignment with the demographics of the student population.
So if you're going to put them on this quote unquote intervention program at a minimum,
their reading experience will serve as a mirror at a minimum at a minimum and does it at right at a minimum?
(10:32):
And do they provide you with those kinds of audits?
Have you seen those audits being done other similar programs?
Not in any formalized capacity?
But what I have done is I've sat down for example.
So I'll,
I'll share with you so that your students know,
I also have a reading instruction certification as well.
Uh And so for me,
(10:53):
because I,
I believe reading is,
is,
is arguably one of the most powerful and Liberator things that you can uh teach a young child to do.
Uh because,
and I know I'm preaching to the choir with this,
but you and I both know the minute I know how to read and I can go into the library or the public library assuming they have an acquiesce to the book band garbage.
Look at what they have at their disposal now.
(11:14):
Yeah,
a whole world.
And it's not just the,
and it's not just the mirror as you,
as you point out as a minimum,
but this concept,
you know,
and I have to give credit to doctor Redeem sinces bishop uh for,
you know,
for uh giving us this metaphor of mirrors,
windows and sliding glass door with,
(11:34):
with the and glass door being the most powerful because you get the opportunity to imagine yourself in a,
in a life that's different from the one that maybe others have framed for you and think about how that is a definitive pathway towards empathy and compassion and liberation and liberation.
But there's a reason why there's a,
(11:55):
on a side note,
there's a reason why people want a lot of these books man because they don't want the students to develop,
they don't want these students to engage in a reading experience that dismantles myopia.
Well,
let's talk about the perfect metaphor for that.
Then as you and I are recording this in 2023 right now.
We,
I I,
in just recent weeks,
we've learned about the Houston independent school district in Texas turning the majority of their school libraries into detention centers.
(12:21):
If that isn't the perfect metaphor for what we're talking about.
I don't know what is.
Yeah.
And that's also a metaphor uh aligned with,
you know,
the school to prison pipeline.
You're,
you're,
you're creating the conditions for the students to be accustomed to what uh a controlled environment is that is punitive.
And uh you know,
I have seen in full disclosure,
I have seen members of the community there uh push back hard core against it,
(12:45):
but they are fighting in uphill battle.
But that doesn't mean you don't fight that battle.
And it is,
uh you know,
to me,
I,
I would look at what are the ways that you can dismantle that and circumvent.
OK,
fine.
You want that turned into a detention center and then we're gonna create reading centers in the community and all those books that you don't want,
we're gonna make sure that those books are all available to all the families.
(13:08):
Um But yeah,
there's a reason why that's the case.
There's a reason why in Florida they have uh rejected or they're,
they're banning books and they're trying to incorporate that god awful curriculum by Prager U which is,
uh,
it's just,
it's gross.
But,
you know,
this is,
this is all,
if you,
if you understand the historical context around education and educational movements,
(13:32):
this is not unusual.
It's happened before,
it's happened outside of this country.
And,
and so this is why,
you know,
for me,
I always,
you know,
what I will do what I do with a lot of district leadership is I always ask him,
how are you empowering your teacher librarians to support the educated workforce to support the students and being able to engage in reading,
both from an instructional perspective,
(13:54):
but also from a joy and personal choice perspective as well.
You know,
I should be able to go into a library and identify books that are with my various content areas classes.
But also books that I could say,
you know,
I want,
there's nothing wrong with reading a book to in the context of,
you know,
I just want to read it because I,
I'm just curious.
That's right.
It shouldn't always be aligned with a learning experience that is accompanied with,
(14:18):
you know,
dare I say a five paragraph summary,
that's it.
And this is where I,
I love that you're circling back to libraries here because this is where libraries become so critically important in this work because there's so many different purposes for reading.
There's so many different reasons why we pick up a book or why we read a instruction manual or why we might read the lyrics to our favorite,
(14:41):
you know,
rap artist,
et cetera.
All those things,
there's so many different reasons and none of them have to do with finding the main idea of the paragraph or figuring out which multi answer to which multiple choice question,
et cetera.
And so when we associate reading with those things with assessment,
only in school,
what we do is we generate may be a generation that's semi OK at taking tests,
(15:04):
although the data certainly doesn't bear that out.
But also for sure,
we create a generation that doesn't see any purpose for reading beyond that assessment and libraries can be an anecdote to that or excuse me,
an antidote to that because we can provide that context in which readers see the written word as being important in other ways that being said,
(15:24):
I want to circle back is something you said earlier.
Um It's so that you can speak to this idea of equity in libraries.
You were mentioning how when we all pivoted to digital learning in 2020 how it's so important for us to understand that just giving kids a device is not enough.
But there's lots of other questions that we have to ask and you and I are having this conversation at the time.
(15:47):
I couldn't help think about my own mother and what might have happened if that,
that if I had been a middle schooler or an elementary school schooler in 2020 my mom who was a single mother,
who didn't graduate from high school,
who worked two and three jobs her entire life.
If my school had sent me home with a chromebook,
(16:09):
et cetera,
even if we had had broadband at home,
my mother did not have the capacity even the energy to assist me with school,
work at home.
There would have been no support beyond the technology there.
And not because my mother didn't want the best for me,
not because my mother didn't want to help me,
but because she was working or exhausted or et cetera,
(16:32):
et cetera.
And so I think about public libraries and school libraries and how we bridge that gap,
how that has to be a part of this equity conversation because all we do is talk about the technology,
but technology is only as good as the humans who support it,
the humans who support it.
Uh We have to interrogate the humans that design these platforms.
(16:54):
We have to interrogate um um the goal of the different platforms.
We also have to keep in mind that um the library,
let let's go back to your and I align with what you're saying,
I have 22 distinct responses that so one,
let's circle back to Houston ID Library is the only physical location on on a school campus.
(17:18):
The only one that is democratized,
the only one.
And there's a reason,
there's a reason why they didn't say we're going to get at a detention center.
They said we're gonna convert the library to a detention center.
That is intentional.
It's gross.
It's negligent.
And of course,
it's on purpose.
(17:38):
By the way,
there's a reason why there,
there's a reason why it's Houston Isdisd,
think about the student population.
And there's a reason why they selected the libraries because what's one of the most definitive ways that you can uh essentially disenfranchise a learner,
you take away their ability to take ownership and agency over their own learning.
That's what a library does.
Now going to your,
your reference to your personal uh background,
(18:01):
there's the added layer of the fact that,
you know,
the,
it's,
it's one of the components of honesty.
It's one of the components of our system that is antiquated and needs to be completely dismantled is this whole idea around learning has to occur both inside and outside of the school day,
but yet still controlled by a school representative.
I staunched him against homework and I've,
(18:23):
I've had all the arguments about it and I did it my first few years when I was a teacher because quote unquote,
that's the way we've always done it.
And then I started to see it for what it is.
And it,
it reminds me of I'm trying to pull it up on a slide so I can uh,
re,
uh,
read it off to you.
But I have a quote from one of my personal heroes,
James Baldwin.
(18:43):
And it reminds me of my experiences,
uh,
both as a student but also as an educator.
Uh,
and it's from his talk to teachers,
I would recommend your students read that it was written in 1963 and you just replace,
uh,
Khrushchev or the Soviet Union with America and the Moms for Liberty and watch how it makes sense.
(19:05):
But the,
yeah,
exactly.
And that was in 1963 by the way.
But the quote is,
the paradox of education is precisely this.
That as one begins to become conscious,
one begins to examine the society in which he or she is being educated and that whole consciousness.
So going back to the Homer thing one,
I,
I,
I always,
I love sharing a story of how,
(19:26):
uh,
you know,
my A P English class when I was in high school.
I never did the homework because I got a s on all the exams.
It's kind of like,
you know,
I would,
I,
I think it would be cool for you all to have a class discussion around.
Um,
you know,
some subject matters,
you just get it.
I,
I always describe it as,
you know,
sometimes I can read the matrix code.
I know there's all these little symbols but I can see what it is.
(19:47):
That was the case with that class.
Um,
never mind the fact that I,
I had issues with some of the things that the teacher would do,
uh,
like requiring us to read out loud,
Huckleberry Finn,
which I noticed that some of my classmates were overly eager to read certain sections of that book.
I got up and walked out of class,
but the bottom line is,
I kind of knew this.
(20:07):
So my point is I didn't do homework because I got A's on all my in class assessments and I still got a B in class because the teacher said I didn't do homework.
So now I go back to your example is the whole idea around.
One is to recognize that um that school is a game.
And if you incorporate homework and you expect if your expectations are the same of your students,
(20:27):
when they are on campus as they are,
when they're off campus,
then you really need to start to interrogate that,
that stream of thought.
Also,
it's the whole idea around,
you know,
because you all are uh teacher librarians,
it's the whole idea around and you and I think have talked about this.
Uh and especially when it comes to technology is we have to dismantle what people define as reading.
(20:48):
I still get into arguments with people who tell me that audio books is not real reading.
There's so much research and data around this.
It's such a silly argument at this point,
but they don't.
But but,
but listen,
you're the media literacy person,
they engage in misinformation.
I don't think they're being intentionally deceitful.
What I think they are doing is they're prioritizing their myopia and their comfort over the fact that,
(21:13):
yeah,
it's ok to admit that you are wrong in this case.
Audio books,
I go,
I go,
I,
I've explained.
I said,
let's look at reading from a strictly a cognitive perspective.
If you are consuming words,
I'm sorry,
you're consuming,
consuming uh syllabic context that is formed in the words,
that words together form a sentence,
sentences,
form paragraph,
paragraphs form chapters,
chapters form a novel.
(21:34):
And there's a whole idea of a story and an idea that the author has captured in that capacity.
Now,
whether you consume that with your eyes or your ears cognitively and neuroscience backs is it's still the same.
So,
so,
so,
so the whole idea around that goes into how are we using tech to dismantle,
you know,
make it Ecuador.
How are we using tech to dismantle barriers?
(21:55):
This is why I talk about a number of different platforms to do that.
But even in the context that you shared as far as the fact that your mother um was not necessarily in a position to provide uh resource supports for you in the home.
Had you been given a computer and said,
go do these things there.
We got to reframe and rethink all of these things.
And I,
I don't,
I don't blame the individuals,
(22:16):
but I also know that individuals make up systems and we're either a perpetuated of these oppressive systems or we are a dismantler of them.
And,
and the dismantle part is the harder part.
But guess what it's needed and it's necessary.
I don't know if you,
my students will know.
So students listen up here,
I don't know,
Ken if you know the work of Michael Hallman who's a public librarian in Memphis,
(22:37):
but uh a person I super admire and I'm gonna send you the link to his TED talk after our interview is over.
But my students know the work of Michael and one of the things that he talks about is libraries as bridge builders.
And in that,
that context,
what he he talks about libraries are not full of books,
they're full of bridge and those bridges,
they may not dismantle a barrier,
(23:00):
but they know the way around it over the top over the,
you know,
if we can dismantle a barrier,
that is the primary goal.
But if we can't,
we must build a bridge around it so that therefore those people that we serve don't have to be stopped or halted by that barrier.
To me,
this is an incredible metaphor for life,
(23:21):
great work because sometimes we're in a system,
especially new librarians like the ones that we're talking to today,
who don't have capital at their school yet,
who are brand new.
And what do we know about brand new teachers.
Can they often assimilate to whatever the,
you know,
culture is,
et cetera?
Yes.
So how then can we whether we're talking about the context of tech?
(23:43):
But I think particularly the context of tech,
how do we build those bridges is over and around those barriers if we don't have the capital or even the skills yet?
Or the understanding the knowledge all of that to dismantle them yet?
Because sometimes just the building of that bridge shows those in power that there's another way that is equally effective.
(24:05):
So for in the context,
let's say of homework that you're talking about or other uh philosophies or,
or um things that just might be in place in their school or their public library that existed for a long time.
One way that librarians can build a bridge around that is to provide those supports at school,
right?
So that folks don't,
(24:25):
kids don't have to do homework,
they can just come to the library and do it with someone there to help support them.
What other ways can we use tech in that way to build those bridges around um those barriers?
Are there any ideas that come to mind for you?
Yeah,
I mean,
I would say where while I'm in agreement with you,
(24:48):
this is one of those rare occasions where you and I are probably not,
we're in the same book but not on the same page.
OK.
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna,
I'm gonna present it in this capacity.
So let's go back to mirrors one of those sliding glass doors.
Yes,
in some cases.
And ideally when students walk through that sliding glass door,
they see the bridge that's been built and then they go across that bridge.
(25:10):
But ultimately,
those bridges are addressing a symptom,
not a disease.
And so,
and the reason why I say that is homework is a disease.
Mhm.
And so,
uh,
uh,
asking,
relying upon or encouraging a teacher librarian to make the library space available for homework.
All that does is,
is,
is address a symptom.
(25:30):
The disease is the assigning of homework period.
And,
and,
and,
and,
and,
and I,
I've had,
I believe me,
I've had the arguments.
Oh,
it prepares kids for college.
No,
it doesn't because you don't have class every day in college.
You're not in school all day.
Uh,
oh,
it teaches them responsibility.
Ok.
So let's talk about that responsibility.
Are you assuming responsibility for that child?
Which means that when they go to college,
(25:51):
are you going to pay their fees and their tuition as well?
Like for you to,
uh,
take ownership over and Dominion over what's teaching a kid responsible and what isn't,
how about teaching the kids how to assert their own voice and their own agency?
They don't need you to teach them responsibility.
You're not their adult caregiver.
So,
so that's,
that,
that,
(26:11):
that's,
that's one part of it.
The other part that I would share.
And this is why I said you wanna,
uh,
like mine,
this is just where my,
my thing deviates because there's so many things that are reactionary and address a symptom in education rather than dismantling the disease.
It reminds me and I hope you share this with,
with,
um,
with your students.
Is that graphic of,
uh,
you know that equity,
equity graphic?
(26:32):
Ok.
Let me just share.
Can I can I can this be our brave space and I be authentic.
Yes.
Yes,
please do.
So it's not a coincidence that I see a lot of white educators love that graphic.
And they talk about how this is,
this is a quality where they all get the boxes and this is equity where the box is.
And so far I believe I'm the only one who says,
(26:53):
yeah,
I not only do I hate that graphic,
that graphic is just a remix of an existing structure.
I go think about why do you even need those boxes?
Oh,
because there's a fence there.
Well,
how about this?
You tear down the fence now.
You don't need the boxes fence.
It's what existed across so many systems in education.
Ok,
so I love that we're having this conversation.
(27:13):
All right,
because I think again,
you and I are on,
you may not think we're on the same page.
I think we really are.
And that is because most of the time.
Yes,
I think so too.
So 99.9% in my,
my students then who are brand new to the field,
who are coming into a new school,
maybe don't have a continuing contract,
etcetera feel it's a huge risk to just start tearing down the fences.
(27:36):
Ok.
So is it fair to say that they can do both that they can try to lift their students around those fences while also learning how to ask the questions or do the work.
It's a,
it's a both end.
It's not a binary.
Uh And so I,
and,
and so let me give you uh so here's one of my receipts.
(27:59):
Let me give you a prime example.
So several of the districts that I worked with over the last couple of years,
I've literally said to them.
OK.
Uh I'm,
I,
I'm reading the room and it's only a matter of time before you get inundated with book band challenges.
And I go so may I see your existing book band policy?
(28:21):
That's it.
And then,
but this is actually a good thing I wanna say in all,
but one instance they didn't have one.
And so I said,
OK,
so now here's where we play chess.
It's coming.
So we're gonna develop a book band policy and I'll give you what I'm gonna share with you because I think this will be important for your students to hear this part.
(28:43):
These are the core conditions of every single policy recommendation I've had,
I've made around book bans all of the following.
So number one,
in order to ban uh to institute a challenge of a book,
you must put down on the form your name and your home address.
No book challenges will be accepted or reviewed if you don't live within the physical boundaries of the school or even within the district.
(29:09):
And because I've seen that as well where people who don't live in the district,
they'll go and they'll challenge books in the district.
Pause,
pause.
Let me just say we know that over 60% of book challenges from last year were filed by the same 11 people who were paid to do it,
11 people are responsible for over 60%.
Go on.
So see,
so you see how I've already circumvented that you can't,
you can't challenge a book if you,
(29:31):
if you don't even live in the district and within the boundary of the school.
So that's number one,
you have to put your name and your home address on there.
And there's a reason why I said you have to do that as well and I'll get to that in a moment.
Number two,
name and title the title and the author of the book.
Number three,
what content you find in the book,
problematic specific pages where you find it problematic,
(29:54):
who it can harm and then also what is a thematic approach of the book?
And then you have to offer an alternate title that's aligned with that same thematic approach and then identify what is the unintended consequence of the removal of the book and what is the anticipatory benefit of replacing it with this other book?
Then the book review Bookman committee has to be a minimum,
(30:15):
an English language arts teacher,
a minimum of at least one teacher librarian,
a minimum of at least one site administrator that site.
And then usually a district officer like the who's ever in charge of curriculum and instruction and then an assistant superintendent for ed services,
that's your committee.
And then once a book band challenge has been instituted and a decision is made,
no further challenges to that book can occur for five years.
(30:38):
I love all of that.
Can I add one thing that I would that I would add to that policy is when I do the same work with um librarians,
the one other I,
I,
everything that you've said,
absolutely check,
check,
check,
check,
check.
And I also ask them to write out what the goal of the policy is in alignment with what the district says its mission and goal is,
(31:05):
that's it.
So if you're saying your district is future ready or it is to prepare all learners,
then the goal of this policy has to be to increase student access to instructional materials that prepare them for this.
So that,
that way we,
yeah,
that way we know going into the challenge that the goal is to increase access,
(31:27):
not limited.
Correct.
And that's why you can't.
In other words,
I always said it cannot be a reductive thing.
In other words,
you ban a book and that book is gone fine.
You want this book gone,
then you need to give me an alternate title and you better know what the thematic approach is.
So I've done that.
Um And also,
you know why I have them put their name and address because every book Man challenge uh is uh it,
it,
(31:48):
it can be subjected to a freedom of information Act request.
So you know who's gonna challenge to it.
And a lot of times there is power and,
and,
and the folks that do that and be able to hide behind anonymity and that strips them of that,
that power.
And if you're going to do it,
it needs to be part of public record,
which means that if I'm a parent in that community,
I can do an open records request and I can look and see who in this community is challenging this book.
(32:11):
Now,
full disclosure,
I am not for any book challenges by any stretch.
I do know that there are plenty of books that are problematic.
I just shared one with you when I was at school.
Huckleberry Finn is extremely problematic for me.
So as to Kill a Mockingbird and quite a few others that,
that uh perpetuate uh racist tropes or uh you know,
uh false narratives,
but you can even teach those books if long as it's within the right context,
(32:35):
I am not for removing the books.
I'm for adding.
If your library has 10,000,
the goal should be to make it 20,000.
But,
but you know,
the whole idea that I'm mentioning even that for your students is part of that right?
There is a way of doing both getting over that fence,
but also dismantling it because see,
here's a bookman challenge,
a fence.
So how do I get over it?
(32:55):
I get in front of it by creating this challenge.
But I've also dismantled it because I know that should a challenge go through.
You got to do a whole lot of homework and give me an alternative before it's even considered.
And I go in and here's the thing,
every single district that I have had the privilege of doing that work with,
guess how many Bookman challenges they've had doughnuts.
(33:16):
Mhm.
Mhm.
Because now won't you have to do all of this work?
Yeah,
they're not,
they don't wanna do it.
And that's where I always say that some policies need to have enough steps in it that it's not the steps will serve both as a deterrent,
but also the steps will serve as a way of if this is what you wanna do,
then you've got to give us all of this information.
(33:37):
And my guess is that a majority you mentioned that 60% by the same 11 people.
How much you wanna bet that all the book I would,
I would,
I would be willing to bet that 100% of the books that those 11 people have challenged,
they haven't even read any of them.
Oh,
that's it.
And the vast majority of them um are either by or reflect the stories of mar marginalized communities.
(33:59):
So there's a clear agenda here.
This is not about protecting Children,
it's about silencing some voices.
Correct,
correct.
Um And then also,
you know,
I,
I hope you all have a discussion around it that goes into the whole idea if you understand the historical context of the publishing industry as a whole.
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
And that is something that we talk about very explicitly.
(34:20):
Um in my young adult literature course,
we talk all about the publishing industry.
So now let's circle back to the basis of our conversation.
Think about all of those antiquated things that exist that create that erect those fences.
And now how does technology dismantle those fences?
How does technology give us access to an author?
How does it,
how does it,
(34:40):
how does it give us access to?
Uh I'll give you an example.
A friend of mine up north,
I believe they even know her.
So the author of the 57 bus,
uh yes,
they know her and they were reading that book and they,
you know,
and part of the context they were discussing,
you know,
like why was this part of the story?
What was the conflict?
Was it,
(35:00):
you know,
all the fundamental and foundational components to uh you know,
reading comprehension and,
and synthesizing it into relevant context.
But the beauty of the tech was they just reached out and,
and I,
I want to say that that my friend is a,
that,
that she knows her,
like their friends.
Anyway,
the whole point was ok.
So we've got our thoughts and we've done this.
So what she did was she invited her and then the author,
(35:22):
that author ended up video chatting with the class and do that without.
Mhm.
And that's where it,
it,
the,
the,
the dialogue that the students had became far more rich and far more detailed because now the person whose words you just consumed and interpreted and synthesized into your own meaning and your own learning,
you're now talking to them.
(35:43):
And so,
and it reminds me of all the books that I read,
you know,
when I was in school where it's like,
you know,
what do you think the author meant?
Well,
guess what,
when you're using a more relevant and contemporary text,
you don't even need to,
to interpret what you think the author meant.
You can do that.
But you can also guess what?
Talk to the author.
That's right.
You can ask him.
That's exactly,
you can ask him,
you can ask him.
(36:04):
And that,
that's why I know it's a,
it's a hot button thing,
but that's why I always ask uh el A teachers especially,
you know,
what percentage of the books that you require for reading have been published in the last 20 years.
And again,
this goes back to the historical context of the publishing industry and whose voices have been continued to be silenced or,
or,
or marginalized at the expense of us getting those at minimum,
(36:27):
those windows and sliding glass doors.
But for me,
this is another,
this is a great way before we start wrapping up because I know we need to.
Um but this is another way to dismantle those fences and also build bridges around them.
If you are working in a school or in a community as a public or school librarian where you know,
some of those older antiquated texts are still being required.
(36:48):
If students in high school are still being asked to read,
to Kill a Mockingbird,
et cetera,
et cetera,
then your job is can be to curate those lists of modern texts that you not only give to the teacher but that you display and advertise and make available to students.
So you are showing the path for uh a more Liberator uh collection.
(37:08):
You are showing an updated canon where the thematics are the same,
but the voices are much more broad and much more diverse representation.
Correct,
correct,
correct,
correct.
It,
it,
it just it has to be.
And uh you know,
I,
I know we're,
we're getting at time with our recording,
but I,
I,
I'll just uh because I have the slide put up on my screen here and I,
(37:29):
I'll,
I'll give you an example.
Uh And this is good for your,
your students to hear this.
So,
in my A P American class and my A P English class,
um all the authors that I was uh required to read um and not a single one of them look like me,
not a single one.
Thankfully.
Um You know,
you mentioned that uh I believe you mentioned your,
your mom didn't go to college.
(37:49):
You were first going to go to college.
My mom didn't even finish high school.
I was first generation to finish high school.
Got it.
So what,
what,
what,
what's fortunate for me,
what you I think it's important for your students to know that I am a,
a uh a black male.
I'm actually fourth generation in my family to go to college.
You see,
that's a stereotype that,
that I love dismantling is the assumption.
(38:09):
Oh,
you must be no fourth and in fact fourth generation and all,
but one of us have an advanced degree.
The only one who doesn't have an advanced degree is my,
my uh my younger half brother,
that's it.
All of us have advanced degrees.
So the reason why I say that it goes back to what you mentioned about your parents and,
and the whole thing that I would encourage your students to look at,
(38:29):
how do I become the catalyst for?
Uh again,
those mirrors windows sliding out doors because I'm gonna read off to you the titles of all the books that my dad had me read that were never a signed in my A P American Lit or my A P English class number one Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison.
Number two.
The Fire next time by James Baldwin.
(38:50):
Number three.
Native Son by Richard Wright.
I also read Black Boy,
but native son was the main one.
Number four.
I know why the Caged Bird sings by Maya Angelou.
And I'm intentionally leaving this next one as the last one because I think it changed the course of my life as a 17 year old.
And then I also recently listened to the audiobook version uh that the narrator,
(39:12):
the reader is Lawrence Fishburn.
So think about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's,
it's the autobiography of Malcolm X.
Mhm.
And so when I look at those books and then recently I read a book written by a professor.
I really like him.
Doctor Penil Joseph,
he's a professor at the University of Texas there in Austin.
And he wrote a book called The Sword and The Shield.
(39:33):
And it was uh it's all about the similarities and the parallels and it's called The Sword and The Shield.
Uh The Revolutionary Lives of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Junior because think about the narratives that show that they were polar opposites and they were different and they were different.
Blah,
blah,
blah,
blah,
blah,
uh maybe at the start.
But later in their lives those tho those quote unquote parallel tracks they converged.
(39:54):
Yeah.
And that's why you can't see it or your,
your students won't see it.
But that's why I have AAA picture up in my home office of that one time when the two of them met.
It was only once but you Yes,
but and it was brief.
But if you read his book,
you find out that Malcolm X for years had wanted to go and uh and have conversations with Martin Luther King junior and would show up at the southern property uh leadership Center.
(40:22):
Uh And he had many conversations with Coretta Scott King.
But Martin Luther King was constantly and always,
you know,
out and about doing things.
So they never did.
But my main point around that was going back to circling all the way back to the start.
Those were my mirrors.
Those were the things that affirm who I am as a young black male growing up in our society.
Those were the books that provided that literally,
(40:43):
that quote that I shared earlier from James Baldwin.
But the,
the,
the what I would say,
the,
the unfortunate part to that is every single one of my classmates was deprived of an opportunity for a window and a sliding glass door because those books were never assigned to that and because they may or may not have had the support at home,
(41:06):
either someone who was able or willing to provide those with those supplementary materials and listen up students.
That's where you come in.
That is where you connect.
This is why I love talking with you.
Yeah,
I love you.
That's where librarian you want to consider.
OK,
we can wait and rely on it to happen at home or I can take ownership over this and be a catalyst for looking at,
(41:33):
like you said,
looking at the reading list,
finding uh comparable uh books that are aligned with the canon that the teachers want to teach and then also reaching out to individuals,
learners and saying,
hey,
so what,
what do you think about yourself and what's important to you from an identity perspective,
from a dreams perspective,
from,
you know,
what do you want to be?
And then I'm gonna connect you.
I'm gonna be that bridge and I'm gonna connect you with a book that can serve as a uh a,
(41:55):
a reading affirmation for you.
Um whether it be that mirror,
that window or that sliding glass door.
I it's,
I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours.
But I,
you know,
we've had these conversations well without being recorded many times,
but I wanna be respectful of your time.
So I wanna thank you for giving us all of these ideas,
(42:17):
but also some practical uh resources for helping my students begin to tear down those fences and build bridges around them if necessary.
Um My students will have access to all of your contact information,
your uh social,
yeah,
your social network,
uh handles,
et cetera and your website.
Um I encourage them.
(42:38):
One of the ways that technology can help us as librarians make the world better is they enable us to connect not only with authors like Dasa Slater,
but also with practitioners like Ken Shelton.
So that we can continue our learning to become better,
to be um more educated and also to grow our power as people whose job it is to make the world better.
So thank you my friend and thank you to my students.
(43:00):
I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts on everything Ken shared today and I will see you in our discussion,
Fred.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.