May 17, 2023 • 38 mins
Canada’s first Chief Mental Health Officer shares his personal experience with clinical depression, how his role at KPMG changed, and how employers are stepping up.
This conversation really gets to the heart of the power of self-stigma and how it can hold us back from seeking the help we need.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
But then when you do realize that you do ask for help you,
you're not being judged by your colleagues,
they're there for you.
They may not say all the right things or bring you to the right places.
But I do remember that when I finally did ask for help,
you know,
that was the first night that I had great sleep for a long,
long time.
(00:22):
Denis needs no introduction.
If you're a follower of the employee mental health space in Canada,
he's had an amazing 31 years working at KPMG the last 20 working with private sector clients since 2017,
Denis has been KPMG's Chief Mental Health Officer.
The first such role in corporate Canada.
(00:44):
Denis shares his personal experience with clinical depression and is a frequent speaker and advisor,
inspiring people to challenge self stigma and embrace the resources necessary to live a healthy and fulfilling life.
I first met Denis when I was working on my book.
This Is Depression and he very kind supported the book's launch.
(01:05):
Denis has been a strong supporter and advocate of better mental health education and continues to lead by example and inspire other leaders to build stronger mental health supports within their organizations.
I'm thrilled that he was willing to share even more of his time with me today.
And I hope you enjoy this conversation.
(01:26):
I think we met in 2019.
And ultimately,
I asked you to participate in my book launch and I did that because I was so inspired by your story.
And just to let everyone know that you're ac a,
you were a partner for more than 30 years at KPMG and then you became Chief Mental Health Officer for KPMG,
(01:49):
I believe in 2017.
So I wanted to start by asking what was it like to come out about your mental illness in a culture where I'm assuming mental illness was not a usual conversation around the board table.
What was that like for you?
Well,
I think Diane,
it was no different than a lot of people that I have the pleasure to support today.
(02:15):
I equated to that self imposed stigma.
You know,
that that culture overlays on you or religious background or upbringings or whatever,
right?
In a video they did on me.
Um I really talk about that self ID stigma.
So I think I was no different Diane and you know the brain telling me,
(02:36):
am I gonna be treated differently?
Is my career advancement gonna be different?
But then when you do realize that you do ask for help,
it's the total opposite.
You're you're not being judged by your colleagues they're there for you.
They may not say all the right things or bring you to the right places.
But I do remember that when I finally did ask for help.
(02:57):
You know,
that was the first night that I had great sleep for a long,
long time.
It's kind of that lifting that big burden off your shoulders,
right?
And the support was from top down.
I remember when our CEO called me at home and said,
hey,
deny I get this.
My dad has been there.
Don't worry about your seat.
It's gonna be there.
When you come back,
(03:17):
we're gonna get you the right.
Help your mind is telling you you can't ask for help.
The reality is you really can and the support will be good.
It won't be perfect.
Perhaps that's why you and I work so hard in this space to move the dial to make sure people know what resources,
what to say,
what not to say.
But it's been a journey.
And you know,
I,
if you told me 13 years ago,
(03:39):
Denis,
you're gonna be our firm's first Chief Mental Health Officer in Canada's first,
I think to this day,
I would have probably used a word that I don't use anymore.
I would have said you're crazy,
Diane,
what are you talking about when you talk about someone being there and being responsive?
In fact,
having a wonderful response.
(03:59):
That's a heartening story.
I want to understand though before you came out before you talked about it before you asked for help.
What were you afraid of what was going on that made you so afraid to ask.
I'm not sure if it's the component Diane being afraid to ask or,
you know,
I explained it today.
(04:20):
A lot of the success around mental health and wellness is education,
right?
I just didn't have the knowledge.
You know,
I grew up in Northern Ontario where there was zero diversity.
You sure didn't talk about mental health.
You know,
the only thing I knew about mental health is school teachers saying,
hey,
if you don't behave,
we're gonna send you to North Bay and you were scared because you knew that Bay's building in North Bay and you never wanted to go there.
(04:45):
Right.
So I think it was just more of an element that not sure why you're feeling this way.
You think you're just tired,
you know,
went through whatever is going on in your life,
work related,
busy season or whatever.
So first time just kind of took a month off.
Never told the soul right at work.
It's pretty easy.
The time of year that it fell,
I think it was in July and then a few years later,
(05:07):
whoops,
same feelings,
same episodes that I'm living through.
And that time,
I think I took maybe six weeks off and then a few years after that,
it hit me again.
And really the third time was the first time Diane that I really asked for help.
You know,
the first couple of times,
even my wife is the youngest of eight.
I didn't want her brothers and sisters,
my in-laws,
(05:27):
my outlaws knowing that deny lived through this.
But the day that I finally did ask for help of a colleague at work is when really my recovery started.
I mean,
I remember driving to work sitting in my car just kind of crying,
right?
I showed the emotion.
Some people,
it's in anger as you and I know deny was more in tears.
But I remember being in my car kind of trying to convince myself,
(05:51):
ok,
today's gonna be the day I'm gonna go up to my desk and I'm gonna be,
you know,
Mr Denis KPMG Enterprise and snap out of this little did I know you can't cure yourself out of cancer on your own or a physical injury on your own?
So why is this different?
So I,
I use a trick and they say,
well,
you had a car accident diane,
(06:11):
are you feeling guilty now that you have to learn to walk out again and go to physio five days a week,
right?
Versus if it's cognitive,
you feel guilty if you have to go off work.
But if it's a physical injury or maybe cancer treatment where you know,
the treatment is just too much and you can't work,
you don't feel the same way.
So a lot of it,
I think was not just not knowing what was going on with my health.
(06:36):
Right.
Denis,
though,
you did say that you did fear being judged and I think a lot of people fear that also the idea that maybe this isn't real,
I'm overreacting,
which I hear so often.
And on top of that,
you brought up another important point about cognition.
The fact that when you're in a serious depression and when you're experiencing any mental illness that's severe,
(07:00):
your brain is not your own,
you're not thinking the way you normally do,
you're not able to exercise that sort of critical thinking or forward thinking,
your memory,
your concentration are off all of those things happening.
That seems pretty scary.
Yeah.
So maybe there was a little fear in,
am I going to be judged?
How are people going to look at me differently?
(07:22):
Yeah,
there's the stigma but there's also,
you know,
letting people down,
right?
You're used to solving problems for your clients,
helping them with strategy or whatever.
So to me was just trying to dig deeper on your own,
but once you move your knowledge dial,
hence,
that's what I love and what I do today,
right?
I describe it as a rabbit hole you're either looking in and it's scary or you're in there,
(07:45):
you're holding on or you're so deep in there like Denis was that it takes a long time to come back out.
So hopefully by moving to dial culturally and having the resources people now are asking for help when,
when they're looking in that rabbit hole and it's a bit scary.
Not where was.
So,
hopefully they're learning from my mistakes.
So we all have that unconscious bias.
(08:07):
And I wonder for someone who's in a heavy hitting profession billing by,
I don't know,
11 minutes or however you do it like lawyers and doctors is that there's this drive and a fear that you will be judged that you can't do it or we're not going to give you that case because you can't bear it.
You may under the pressure.
(08:29):
What was that like?
Well,
it's definitely one of the things that comes back to mind is that thinking that people will treat you differently if they knew,
right?
And I can say from lived experience that doesn't happen.
You may have a few people I think in my career,
I've had one person say,
oh,
you with your condition,
I go,
oh,
wait a minute.
What are you talking about?
(08:50):
I'm talking about my game,
right?
I knock those down as ignorance.
You need to educate yourself.
I I it's not like that,
right?
The mind is telling you you're being judged or you're gonna be judged,
but it's the total opposite.
I remember I,
I was doing a lot of the recruiting for our firm.
I remember a young lady that I was interviewing.
(09:10):
I looked at her marks and I said hey,
you clearly demonstrate that you can have great marks.
I see a semester here where your marks really went down,
what went on and she looked at me and said,
I suffered through depression.
I got help.
Next question.
I,
you know,
I just wanted to get up and hug her and say,
thank you.
This is my role redundancy and my role has been defined the day that you and I can be standing at the water cooler talking about this like any other illness and more and more.
(09:39):
I see that in the corporate world.
Number one question U F T recruiting last year was around my mental health benefits.
I go back even five years.
It would have been well Denis.
What's the top five KPMG clients that I'll get to work on?
Now?
It's questioning,
hey,
how come your benefit is X and your competitors is Y so I really see this trend in the,
(10:01):
I always say 20 to 30 where when I do something they high five me.
Yeah.
Denis I get that.
My mom,
my sister,
my aunt,
the 30 to 40 come and they say Denis,
I'd like to talk to you in private,
right?
We'll get a boardroom.
They make sure nobody's snooping,
but they're talking to me about themselves.
The 40 plus come to talk to me about her.
It is all because the 40 plus are bad folks is we never grew up in that era,
(10:27):
right?
Our kids come home.
Hey dad,
I learned about jack dot org.
I learned about Big White Wall.
I learned about safe talk.
Parents have no clear what that is,
right?
So I see this wave of change now where the whole wellness side and working with a lot of entrepreneurs.
I say every week when I'm,
(10:48):
when I'm speaking publicly that you are dead in the water from a attraction and retention space of talent if you're not focused in this space.
And as you and I know thinking back to the session we did in Toronto,
there is so much that corporate Canada can do at no cost in no organizations to move to dial in this space.
(11:09):
Starting by reading your amazing book that I love your opinion to see.
I still use it and I still refer people to it.
You want to know where the resources are right across Canada.
Go buy this book,
Diane has done the research on this.
Oh,
thank you.
You'll get everywhere with flattery with me.
It's on our intro web too.
You've done an amazing job at that.
(11:30):
Oh,
thank you.
You know,
do you have colleagues now?
Because it sounds like you're not just talking about Denis working at KPMG Canada,
you're creating these innovative solutions,
you're all over the place.
So is there a network you guys all hang out and talk about what else you can do?
Other Chief Mental Health Officers that are non medical people?
(11:53):
That you're,
you're making connections with and having impact with.
It's interesting how we find each other with social media,
right?
Like I found another Chief Mental Health Officer in Australia in a big bank in Canada.
Interestingly enough,
it'll always be Wellness Officer.
Um The only one I found so far is uh Best Buy.
(12:15):
I think it's Chief Wellness and Mental Health Officer.
And it's interesting when you talk behind the scene to a lot of colleagues that I've met over the last few years,
there's still a challenge in having mental health in your title.
You know,
like in my case,
we kicked around calling me that Chief Wellness Officer.
And I said no,
(12:35):
and I remember discussion and you know why?
Because I said,
I don't know what the hell that means.
Like wellness to you and me is different,
right?
I've got an Apple Watch,
you've got a fit back,
you've got a yoga person.
So if we're to move the dial on mental help,
call me what it is.
So it's interesting though that I definitely see an appetite out there Diane of people.
(12:56):
I've never been busier.
Like part of my role has been defined to be a voice for corporate Canada and more and more,
some of my fellow partners say,
hey,
Diane,
I wanna drop you in front of the c suite of,
you know,
a friend of KPMG or a client of KPMG.
And it's interesting to see those ha ha moment for these CEO where the light is going on realizing that mental health is not an hr issue.
(13:22):
It's an all of us issue.
And the tone top down really has an impact.
When I stepped into the role,
Diane,
I got on a plane and I went to have dinner with our CEO.
And I told my wife,
I said,
if KPMG is doing this to look good in a proposal and put my nice mug in a proposal,
I'll wait after dessert because I love dessert and I'll resign.
(13:43):
I won't take the job and it wasn't that at all.
It was more like the CEO and I looking at each other kind of recognizing that this is important,
having no clue what the role looks like and we'll create it as we go along.
Like the role description was two lines.
I wrote it because we didn't know a lot is happening,
but I think more can be done.
(14:04):
You mentioned R O I the return on the investment for what an organization does to support mental health within their organization.
So if Denis,
you're talking to a large organization that really has not done anything.
What's your argument for having a chief mental health officer?
Beyond investment?
(14:26):
And I know that's important.
The R O I is,
is what they hear.
But what are the pieces that you lay out for them to say you doing this?
You having a leader in this space?
This is what it does.
Well,
for starters,
I don't think I would ever push that.
Hey,
you need a chief,
mental health officer.
Um Yes,
if you've got the size and so on perhaps,
(14:47):
right?
But the angle that I take,
Diane is saying,
who is accountable for this in your organization?
Right?
So,
accountability because you get results from what you measure,
right?
And it could sit in hr that's fine.
But is this like just 10% of the person's role?
Right.
We have an amazing hr team and they're very knowledgeable around mental health.
(15:08):
We've,
we've got an er S team which is a subset of hr they have additional training,
a lot of the same training I would have.
So they go to people but they're busy,
right?
So who is it?
That's accountable?
That has the time to do this?
That would be a starting point.
Then it's kind of like take inventory what you have already?
(15:29):
You have an E A P?
Great.
Is it effective?
Have you ever called it?
Is there a lens of diversity?
So,
I,
the focus is more on who's responsible for this,
right?
And,
and if somebody asks me,
can my hr person call you?
I usually say no or I will talk to them and say,
listen,
I want to be respectful of your time.
(15:51):
But if it's just you,
I know I can't really help you move the dial,
let's get the owners in on this.
Let's get the C suite,
let's get the senior management.
Then I have a discussion with them and that really helps hr team member to move the dial,
right.
Because often time owners leadership go,
well,
it's your problem,
Diane,
you and you and in hr go figure it out.
(16:13):
But we don't have a budget or we don't have the time of day to put this on the town hall meeting or to embed it in ongoing meetings and so on.
So you have the discussion of whatever size company you're in,
who's accountable within the company.
But also that you have to have buy in from the top,
which I completely agree with,
(16:33):
I guess in a broader perspective,
what role do employers pay when it comes to health care of their team members of their employees?
And this has definitely changed over the last 5 to 10 years.
And I have some strong opinions here,
but I'd love to hear what responsibility employers have and what expectations are on them.
(16:55):
Now,
I like organizations,
I end up doing,
doing this for the right reason being the humanitarian reason.
I specialized in a private company space.
They are like families.
You spend more time with your colleagues at work,
awake hours with your colleagues at work than you do with families.
So you have a role to play.
Right?
Oftentimes I'm the first one to see that your beautiful smile is not there anymore.
(17:18):
And I can interact.
So we play a huge role,
we can play a stronger voice that to bring change.
Why I said yes,
right away when I knew you wanted to do something like this.
But I think the care that we bring and challenging some of these maybe historical things like E A P,
any kind of size would have an E A P,
(17:39):
you know,
challenge it,
is it effective?
Does it work?
Why is your utilization?
Have you ever thought of bringing them in having a few lunch and learn?
So people at least know that this is for and the great services that they have.
There your earlier question,
Diane,
there was one component.
I didn't ask her when you said,
well,
deny,
you must have a team.
I don't,
we're,
we're maybe two people in this space working almost exclusively,
(18:05):
but we have 10,000 employees.
But my team Diane is 10,000 people and where it gets legs is that once you've created that culture where people are not afraid to talk about mental health.
Now we have mental health ally groups almost in all of our offices.
Another big thing is we have over 40 people groups.
(18:28):
Now self created an Asian professional group,
a Black professional group,
an aboriginal group,
a working mom's group,
a working dad's group.
Well,
these groups create safe spaces where as an example,
the Black Professional Network are bringing in their own mental health speakers.
And obviously all these group,
(18:48):
Diane have a huge mental health component.
You're creating a safe space where people can come and discuss issues that they're having with their life,
with their kids and new schools or whatever it contributes to their mental wellness.
So we provide guidance.
One of my teammates will host monthly calls where all these mental health allies from across the country dial in meet,
(19:13):
talk about best practices and so on.
And if anything,
now we got to do a better job at sharing what this office is doing versus that office so that we don't recreate the wheel.
But I personally think that's a great problem to have because they are doing what they need in their local market.
Not what we think we need out of Toronto.
(19:35):
What you just said was just so incredibly inspirational.
I really feel like change is coming.
And when you look at the statistics about what millennials are looking for in the workplace,
70% say they take a job based on mental health resources that the company offered.
(19:56):
They,
they pick one organization over another based on how the company cares for their employees.
And you know that saying if you take care of your employees,
they'll take care of the business you're living that.
So what's next,
Denis,
what's on your horizon that still needs to change?
It's not unusual,
by the way,
Diane,
that new team members tell me point blank,
(20:19):
deny.
I picked KPMG because of your mental health focus and I,
that brings a smile to my face even though I know we didn't do it for that.
But if you have intrinsic benefits,
you're a more attractive employer.
Because if that's a bonus,
what's in my horizon?
You know what one challenge going back to your very first question,
(20:43):
Diane on Stigma.
Somebody described me the other day as a zookeeper.
I'm not sure I want to go there with that example.
But it was more on the notion that Denis you have 10,000 exotic professionals with all this different skill set and,
and you know,
you've been instrumental.
Now there's a button on our home screen mental health at KPMG click boom.
(21:07):
I'm there videos lived experience and all of that.
But we hear you say that there's still a percentage of your team that has never clicked that button.
So the focus now internally on my horizon is what's in your mental health toolbox.
I just come back from a management retreat,
Diane and bam with our Calgary office about 300 people.
(21:30):
And I I started the session by saying,
you know what?
You're going back home tomorrow night and your child says,
mummy,
I think the world would be better off without me.
How are you feeling?
Or your aging dad is saying scary words like that.
How are you feeling?
Should have seen the silence and the phones go off to him just to nudge people a bit and then the discussion with another partner who shared his lived experience was around what's in your mental health toolbox.
(22:01):
You know,
like first date CPR you learn before you need this mental health toolbox for many people.
It's still empty.
There might be a few things but still not enough or it's dated.
I,
I find a lot of people have coping mechanisms but it's the same thing as when they were 22.
Now you're 36 you're in a relationship,
(22:21):
you're a partner at KPMG,
you're helping clients.
You have two or three little rug rats.
It's not working,
right?
So finding a way so that more people are populating their mental health toolbox,
making it even easier for people to find resources and,
and a huge enhanced focus.
Diane on non kpmg tools.
(22:45):
Why?
Because this is what my first couple of weeks of COVID looked like my inbox blowing up of people saying,
hey,
Denis,
I'm so happy.
I work here.
We have you,
we have er s we have a $2000 mental health benefit.
We have people group,
but I care for my little niece.
I care for my aging dad.
(23:06):
What do we have for them?
And I quickly realized Diane that Holy Jesus,
there's so many things out there that you can use for your little niece,
but my teams don't know about it.
So we invested a lot of time where putting on that page,
free resources for you in your circle of care and that's the bounce backs.
That's the mind beacons.
(23:26):
That's the ability C B and the list goes on and on of tools that our colleagues can access to buy them time because going back to the challenge of health care,
it is broken in this space.
We see what's happening at er,
you know,
my little grandson ended up at er with this new respiratory virus the other day.
(23:47):
So I not only saw it on the news,
I lived it mental health space.
You and I would probably agree that it's first.
Right.
I see you being released from hospital that tried to self harm and they're released with a list of referrals of professionals that aren't taking calls or are retired.
So,
having things in your mental health toolbox as a,
(24:09):
a parent,
as a caregiver that you can bridge not only yourself but family members is so critical.
So it's getting these additional team members to invest in themselves,
right?
Because we all have a role to play here,
Danny with your toolbox.
(24:29):
It sounds to me like you're primarily focused on prevention and I'm a big believer in prevention,
the things that we can do to help you to stay well or to move you from stressed back to healthy.
But you know,
better than almost anyone else that you can't yoga your way out of a severe depression.
There are times when you need a psychiatrist and one of the greatest challenges we have in this country.
(24:55):
At what really I believe is not a tipping point.
We're,
we're free falling over the edge here.
We're at a crisis point which is an opportunity for change.
People can't access care.
So what do you do as Chief Mental Health Officer at KPMG,
when you can't help people to get access to high quality psychiatric care?
(25:18):
Well,
benefits was one of them,
Diane,
like one of the first things I did the first year kind of looking at mental health benefit doesn't give you much help that you can go get.
We came out with a $2000 mental health benefit for all our employees regardless of whether they take their benefits with KPMG.
Because as you and I know,
(25:39):
right,
if my partner works for the government,
perhaps they have better benefits.
So I pick them there.
But at KPMG,
everybody has a $2000 mental health benefit.
And also trying to recognize the fact that certain of the professionals like psychiatry is covered by health care.
But psychologists and down or not,
we blew up the definitions because why should it really matter who you're using because old style benefits unless you've got 10 degrees beside your name,
(26:06):
they don't qualify if you're using a social worker and you're feeling well and you're getting your beautiful smile back.
Why would I care?
So the definition of what qualifies in that benefit is very,
very broad.
You have to draw the line somewhere,
right?
But it's still very,
very broad.
So people have that.
But I think the success for immediate care is having an E A P that you could rely on.
(26:31):
But also I think all these other resources they buy you time.
I mean,
they're not perfect.
Let,
let's be honest,
bounce back is not perfect but from mild to moderate and you don't know where to go.
You know,
you go in the chapter you want to buy a book and all of that,
I would argue that bounce back.
It's reliable.
You know,
there is some coaching,
(26:51):
there are some good books and so on that they give you that are very topical,
right?
Like mine,
Beacon is another one that it's not perfect.
But I remember using that one and testing it.
I,
I have a therapist.
I got to know the therapist,
I was giving homework.
I was evaluated.
Therapists would even probe me when I didn't do my homework.
(27:13):
I remember once I get this email saying,
hey,
deny,
I noticed you didn't do module four,
they did not for you or maybe you have questions.
So I thought wow,
for not for everybody once again,
but for some people there is tools like this that can bridge you.
They don't replace the psychiatrist and so on,
right?
But they bridge you in the short term until I can have my face to face with a professional such as yourself But what if you can't get to me or what if your colleague doesn't have a family doctor?
(27:44):
And I know that it's a big question and I,
I would love you to have all the answers.
Please tell me.
But the reality in Canada is,
you know,
a huge percentage of people don't have a family doctor.
If they have a family doctor,
they may not be comfortable with,
with taking that next step beyond the talk therapy into the prescribing.
And certainly the lack of access to psychiatry.
(28:07):
Is there an approach that you've worked on conversations that you've had that can shed a light on how you might have made an impact through your organization in helping to access care and you don't have to have an answer because none of us do at the moment we're working on it.
I think it's baby steps,
Diane.
I mean,
(28:27):
how do you fix it?
I don't know,
like even driving up to Mon Blan today,
my wife was driving and I googled a few things to see what's new Canada dot C A boom.
You hit provinces and I can get to mental health resources but it's so scattered.
I gotta go by province.
I gotta click 20 things before I get there.
(28:48):
So how do you fix that?
Right.
And I even went like I think the new 811 is not up and running everyone.
Right.
Newfoundland has it.
You would know better than me.
What other provinces?
But why isn't it that you and I cannot just call a number and then we would be told.
Well,
I think Jack dot org would be good for you or bounce back.
(29:08):
Like even during COVID,
I,
I won't name this minister,
but I remember being in the President's club presentation with one of the Ministers of Health and I said with all due respect when you go back to your office,
I challenge you to go find these amazing resources that you are paying for.
And I got a call a few days later by one of the team members saying Denis Mr Minister would just like you to know that you're right.
(29:35):
We can't find anything and we're gonna solve that.
Like even at KPMG,
if you were in distress,
you couldn't find anything.
Now you have no excuse because it's on your desktop.
Mental health app.
Click E fa P click.
So somehow if we could just change that Diane,
like when I speak to corporate Canada,
my walkway is,
where's your button on your home screen?
(29:56):
Many organizations now,
even one of the big banks has a button on their home screen.
Thanks to Denis.
People can find things right?
If somehow we could help Canadians at large find the things that we have.
They're not perfect,
but we have a lot of things.
What can we do so that listeners can find these things.
(30:17):
I,
I,
I don't know the answers but it's changing.
Right?
I think we're finally trying to think differently.
Right.
So I'm going to end with this question that uh I wonder how much it's going to be aligned with?
What you just said?
If you were granted a wish you were granted one mental health care wish from someone who really had the power to drive change.
(30:41):
What would that wish be to do something on the proactive side?
Because even when I started in my role,
Diane,
it was too reactive with time.
We had to move to dial.
I,
I would visit the offices,
tell you what we had,
right?
But it's almost too late then starting to listen to people,
(31:02):
people all of a sudden two years in would say that's awesome,
Diane.
But what do you have so that I could be more proactive so that when I do hit speed bumps in life and family relationships work,
I,
I've got,
I hate using the word resilience because,
you know,
for some,
it resonates some it doesn't.
But if we could do something and I think it ties back to the idea of a toolbox,
(31:26):
a toolbox is not just care items.
I love the plan for resilience that perhaps you were one of the knowledgeable folks involved in the development of that.
It has two pages on choosing healthier habits.
It has three pages where I can do a stress profile on me and you,
my partner can do it on me and we have a discussion so,
doing something on the proactive side so that people recognize,
(31:52):
hey,
like the mental health continuum,
don't wait till you're in the red.
Let's do something where you're bouncing in the,
in the yellow here a bit.
Not going back.
Because I think if we could do that,
we're owning our mental wellness.
I think it puts us in a better position to sort of take action and perhaps open up to a friend,
(32:14):
access E A P or maybe even talk to our GP.
I sort of laugh when you said how many people don't have a GP.
I sort of think many people who have a GP,
it doesn't matter anyway because the majority of the ones I support,
they're not even comfortable talking to their GP about this,
right?
So proactive would be my wish to give you something so that you've got a starting point that would pique your appetite to recognize that mental health is health.
(32:43):
Nobody can take care of it for you other than you.
And then maybe your curiosity,
you get involved with more things.
Denis,
as Canada's first chief Mental health Officer,
I think you have an awful lot to be proud of and I know that you're an inspirational leader in that role.
What are you most proud of this,
(33:04):
this role,
Diane,
this does not feel like work.
It is such a humbling role and I couldn't have dreamed of a better change of,
of,
of a role Diane and just to be a voice for corporate Canada as well is,
is,
you know,
for various organizations and helping them move the dial,
(33:26):
you know,
do a lot of stuff with Jack dot org now working with the Uns single with and things like that motivate me because I know the impact that they can have because they're touching so many people in a quick way.
Right.
I think Jack dot org interacts with over a million you to year now.
That's huge,
right?
I love things that you can have a podcast like this,
(33:49):
that will get a lot of listeners.
Hopefully you can get people to think differently and take a small action.
And I always say,
don't let this overwhelm you when I teach at Ivy,
I go like,
don't go back to the office and think you got to go from here to there overnight.
You don't have to start small.
Bring in this speaker every little action that you do put it on your agenda,
(34:13):
you eat that elephant one bite at a time.
Yeah,
that's I'll remember that.
Thank you so much for speaking so openly with me today.
You know,
the world needs more,
Denis,
more of your kind of incredible leadership.
You have the essence of what I think is the greatest leadership superpower,
(34:35):
which is vulnerability and your vulnerability has changed the lives of I'm sure countless individuals.
Thank you again so much.
For what you do.
Thank you,
Diane.
You're too kind right back at you all the amazing work you do in this space.
We're all in this together.
So let's continue to move to dial.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
(34:56):
Take care.
Denis is one of those rare individuals who has been through the worst of times but has been able to get the right help recover and find the courage and the energy to give back to so many others.
He illustrates the powerful hold that self stigma can still have on people holding us back from asking for the help we need when we need it.
(35:21):
Most Denis makes a powerful case for employers to invest deeply in resources both to treat and prevent mental illness.
He reminds us that mental illness can strike anyone and everyone can struggle with feelings of weakness,
shame,
fear,
and self stigma.
We have to keep working on breaking down those barriers and I'm so grateful to Denis for his caring leadership.
(35:45):
Until next time.
Thanks for listening.
The Wicked Mind podcast is a series of unique conversations with individuals that share experiences and perspectives on mental health care together.
We will uncover ideas that inspire action.
Please make sure you subscribe,
share and comment.
And if you have a topic or guest suggestion,
(36:08):
please reach out to me at Dr Diane McIntosh dot com.
But then when you do realize that you do ask for help you,
you're not being judged by your colleagues,
they're there for you.
They may not say all the right things or bring you to the right places.
But I do remember that when I finally did ask for help,
you know,
that was the first night that I had great sleep for a long,
long time.
(00:22):
Denis needs no introduction.
If you're a follower of the employee mental health space in Canada,
he's had an amazing 31 years working at KPMG the last 20 working with private sector clients since 2017,
Denis has been KPMG's Chief Mental Health Officer.
The first such role in corporate Canada.
(00:44):
Denis shares his personal experience with clinical depression and is a frequent speaker and advisor,
inspiring people to challenge self stigma and embrace the resources necessary to live a healthy and fulfilling life.
I first met Denis when I was working on my book.
This Is Depression and he very kind supported the book's launch.
(01:05):
Denis has been a strong supporter and advocate of better mental health education and continues to lead by example and inspire other leaders to build stronger mental health supports within their organizations.
I'm thrilled that he was willing to share even more of his time with me today.
And I hope you enjoy this conversation.
(01:26):
I think we met in 2019.
And ultimately,
I asked you to participate in my book launch and I did that because I was so inspired by your story.
And just to let everyone know that you're ac a,
you were a partner for more than 30 years at KPMG and then you became Chief Mental Health Officer for KPMG,
(01:49):
I believe in 2017.
So I wanted to start by asking what was it like to come out about your mental illness in a culture where I'm assuming mental illness was not a usual conversation around the board table.
What was that like for you?
Well,
I think Diane,
it was no different than a lot of people that I have the pleasure to support today.
(02:15):
I equated to that self imposed stigma.
You know,
that that culture overlays on you or religious background or upbringings or whatever,
right?
In a video they did on me.
Um I really talk about that self ID stigma.
So I think I was no different Diane and you know the brain telling me,
(02:36):
am I gonna be treated differently?
Is my career advancement gonna be different?
But then when you do realize that you do ask for help,
it's the total opposite.
You're you're not being judged by your colleagues they're there for you.
They may not say all the right things or bring you to the right places.
But I do remember that when I finally did ask for help.
(02:57):
You know,
that was the first night that I had great sleep for a long,
long time.
It's kind of that lifting that big burden off your shoulders,
right?
And the support was from top down.
I remember when our CEO called me at home and said,
hey,
deny I get this.
My dad has been there.
Don't worry about your seat.
It's gonna be there.
When you come back,
(03:17):
we're gonna get you the right.
Help your mind is telling you you can't ask for help.
The reality is you really can and the support will be good.
It won't be perfect.
Perhaps that's why you and I work so hard in this space to move the dial to make sure people know what resources,
what to say,
what not to say.
But it's been a journey.
And you know,
I,
if you told me 13 years ago,
(03:39):
Denis,
you're gonna be our firm's first Chief Mental Health Officer in Canada's first,
I think to this day,
I would have probably used a word that I don't use anymore.
I would have said you're crazy,
Diane,
what are you talking about when you talk about someone being there and being responsive?
In fact,
having a wonderful response.
(03:59):
That's a heartening story.
I want to understand though before you came out before you talked about it before you asked for help.
What were you afraid of what was going on that made you so afraid to ask.
I'm not sure if it's the component Diane being afraid to ask or,
you know,
I explained it today.
(04:20):
A lot of the success around mental health and wellness is education,
right?
I just didn't have the knowledge.
You know,
I grew up in Northern Ontario where there was zero diversity.
You sure didn't talk about mental health.
You know,
the only thing I knew about mental health is school teachers saying,
hey,
if you don't behave,
we're gonna send you to North Bay and you were scared because you knew that Bay's building in North Bay and you never wanted to go there.
(04:45):
Right.
So I think it was just more of an element that not sure why you're feeling this way.
You think you're just tired,
you know,
went through whatever is going on in your life,
work related,
busy season or whatever.
So first time just kind of took a month off.
Never told the soul right at work.
It's pretty easy.
The time of year that it fell,
I think it was in July and then a few years later,
(05:07):
whoops,
same feelings,
same episodes that I'm living through.
And that time,
I think I took maybe six weeks off and then a few years after that,
it hit me again.
And really the third time was the first time Diane that I really asked for help.
You know,
the first couple of times,
even my wife is the youngest of eight.
I didn't want her brothers and sisters,
my in-laws,
(05:27):
my outlaws knowing that deny lived through this.
But the day that I finally did ask for help of a colleague at work is when really my recovery started.
I mean,
I remember driving to work sitting in my car just kind of crying,
right?
I showed the emotion.
Some people,
it's in anger as you and I know deny was more in tears.
But I remember being in my car kind of trying to convince myself,
(05:51):
ok,
today's gonna be the day I'm gonna go up to my desk and I'm gonna be,
you know,
Mr Denis KPMG Enterprise and snap out of this little did I know you can't cure yourself out of cancer on your own or a physical injury on your own?
So why is this different?
So I,
I use a trick and they say,
well,
you had a car accident diane,
(06:11):
are you feeling guilty now that you have to learn to walk out again and go to physio five days a week,
right?
Versus if it's cognitive,
you feel guilty if you have to go off work.
But if it's a physical injury or maybe cancer treatment where you know,
the treatment is just too much and you can't work,
you don't feel the same way.
So a lot of it,
I think was not just not knowing what was going on with my health.
(06:36):
Right.
Denis,
though,
you did say that you did fear being judged and I think a lot of people fear that also the idea that maybe this isn't real,
I'm overreacting,
which I hear so often.
And on top of that,
you brought up another important point about cognition.
The fact that when you're in a serious depression and when you're experiencing any mental illness that's severe,
(07:00):
your brain is not your own,
you're not thinking the way you normally do,
you're not able to exercise that sort of critical thinking or forward thinking,
your memory,
your concentration are off all of those things happening.
That seems pretty scary.
Yeah.
So maybe there was a little fear in,
am I going to be judged?
How are people going to look at me differently?
(07:22):
Yeah,
there's the stigma but there's also,
you know,
letting people down,
right?
You're used to solving problems for your clients,
helping them with strategy or whatever.
So to me was just trying to dig deeper on your own,
but once you move your knowledge dial,
hence,
that's what I love and what I do today,
right?
I describe it as a rabbit hole you're either looking in and it's scary or you're in there,
(07:45):
you're holding on or you're so deep in there like Denis was that it takes a long time to come back out.
So hopefully by moving to dial culturally and having the resources people now are asking for help when,
when they're looking in that rabbit hole and it's a bit scary.
Not where was.
So,
hopefully they're learning from my mistakes.
So we all have that unconscious bias.
(08:07):
And I wonder for someone who's in a heavy hitting profession billing by,
I don't know,
11 minutes or however you do it like lawyers and doctors is that there's this drive and a fear that you will be judged that you can't do it or we're not going to give you that case because you can't bear it.
You may under the pressure.
(08:29):
What was that like?
Well,
it's definitely one of the things that comes back to mind is that thinking that people will treat you differently if they knew,
right?
And I can say from lived experience that doesn't happen.
You may have a few people I think in my career,
I've had one person say,
oh,
you with your condition,
I go,
oh,
wait a minute.
What are you talking about?
(08:50):
I'm talking about my game,
right?
I knock those down as ignorance.
You need to educate yourself.
I I it's not like that,
right?
The mind is telling you you're being judged or you're gonna be judged,
but it's the total opposite.
I remember I,
I was doing a lot of the recruiting for our firm.
I remember a young lady that I was interviewing.
(09:10):
I looked at her marks and I said hey,
you clearly demonstrate that you can have great marks.
I see a semester here where your marks really went down,
what went on and she looked at me and said,
I suffered through depression.
I got help.
Next question.
I,
you know,
I just wanted to get up and hug her and say,
thank you.
This is my role redundancy and my role has been defined the day that you and I can be standing at the water cooler talking about this like any other illness and more and more.
(09:39):
I see that in the corporate world.
Number one question U F T recruiting last year was around my mental health benefits.
I go back even five years.
It would have been well Denis.
What's the top five KPMG clients that I'll get to work on?
Now?
It's questioning,
hey,
how come your benefit is X and your competitors is Y so I really see this trend in the,
(10:01):
I always say 20 to 30 where when I do something they high five me.
Yeah.
Denis I get that.
My mom,
my sister,
my aunt,
the 30 to 40 come and they say Denis,
I'd like to talk to you in private,
right?
We'll get a boardroom.
They make sure nobody's snooping,
but they're talking to me about themselves.
The 40 plus come to talk to me about her.
It is all because the 40 plus are bad folks is we never grew up in that era,
(10:27):
right?
Our kids come home.
Hey dad,
I learned about jack dot org.
I learned about Big White Wall.
I learned about safe talk.
Parents have no clear what that is,
right?
So I see this wave of change now where the whole wellness side and working with a lot of entrepreneurs.
I say every week when I'm,
(10:48):
when I'm speaking publicly that you are dead in the water from a attraction and retention space of talent if you're not focused in this space.
And as you and I know thinking back to the session we did in Toronto,
there is so much that corporate Canada can do at no cost in no organizations to move to dial in this space.
(11:09):
Starting by reading your amazing book that I love your opinion to see.
I still use it and I still refer people to it.
You want to know where the resources are right across Canada.
Go buy this book,
Diane has done the research on this.
Oh,
thank you.
You'll get everywhere with flattery with me.
It's on our intro web too.
You've done an amazing job at that.
(11:30):
Oh,
thank you.
You know,
do you have colleagues now?
Because it sounds like you're not just talking about Denis working at KPMG Canada,
you're creating these innovative solutions,
you're all over the place.
So is there a network you guys all hang out and talk about what else you can do?
Other Chief Mental Health Officers that are non medical people?
(11:53):
That you're,
you're making connections with and having impact with.
It's interesting how we find each other with social media,
right?
Like I found another Chief Mental Health Officer in Australia in a big bank in Canada.
Interestingly enough,
it'll always be Wellness Officer.
Um The only one I found so far is uh Best Buy.
(12:15):
I think it's Chief Wellness and Mental Health Officer.
And it's interesting when you talk behind the scene to a lot of colleagues that I've met over the last few years,
there's still a challenge in having mental health in your title.
You know,
like in my case,
we kicked around calling me that Chief Wellness Officer.
And I said no,
(12:35):
and I remember discussion and you know why?
Because I said,
I don't know what the hell that means.
Like wellness to you and me is different,
right?
I've got an Apple Watch,
you've got a fit back,
you've got a yoga person.
So if we're to move the dial on mental help,
call me what it is.
So it's interesting though that I definitely see an appetite out there Diane of people.
(12:56):
I've never been busier.
Like part of my role has been defined to be a voice for corporate Canada and more and more,
some of my fellow partners say,
hey,
Diane,
I wanna drop you in front of the c suite of,
you know,
a friend of KPMG or a client of KPMG.
And it's interesting to see those ha ha moment for these CEO where the light is going on realizing that mental health is not an hr issue.
(13:22):
It's an all of us issue.
And the tone top down really has an impact.
When I stepped into the role,
Diane,
I got on a plane and I went to have dinner with our CEO.
And I told my wife,
I said,
if KPMG is doing this to look good in a proposal and put my nice mug in a proposal,
I'll wait after dessert because I love dessert and I'll resign.
(13:43):
I won't take the job and it wasn't that at all.
It was more like the CEO and I looking at each other kind of recognizing that this is important,
having no clue what the role looks like and we'll create it as we go along.
Like the role description was two lines.
I wrote it because we didn't know a lot is happening,
but I think more can be done.
(14:04):
You mentioned R O I the return on the investment for what an organization does to support mental health within their organization.
So if Denis,
you're talking to a large organization that really has not done anything.
What's your argument for having a chief mental health officer?
Beyond investment?
(14:26):
And I know that's important.
The R O I is,
is what they hear.
But what are the pieces that you lay out for them to say you doing this?
You having a leader in this space?
This is what it does.
Well,
for starters,
I don't think I would ever push that.
Hey,
you need a chief,
mental health officer.
Um Yes,
if you've got the size and so on perhaps,
(14:47):
right?
But the angle that I take,
Diane is saying,
who is accountable for this in your organization?
Right?
So,
accountability because you get results from what you measure,
right?
And it could sit in hr that's fine.
But is this like just 10% of the person's role?
Right.
We have an amazing hr team and they're very knowledgeable around mental health.
(15:08):
We've,
we've got an er S team which is a subset of hr they have additional training,
a lot of the same training I would have.
So they go to people but they're busy,
right?
So who is it?
That's accountable?
That has the time to do this?
That would be a starting point.
Then it's kind of like take inventory what you have already?
(15:29):
You have an E A P?
Great.
Is it effective?
Have you ever called it?
Is there a lens of diversity?
So,
I,
the focus is more on who's responsible for this,
right?
And,
and if somebody asks me,
can my hr person call you?
I usually say no or I will talk to them and say,
listen,
I want to be respectful of your time.
(15:51):
But if it's just you,
I know I can't really help you move the dial,
let's get the owners in on this.
Let's get the C suite,
let's get the senior management.
Then I have a discussion with them and that really helps hr team member to move the dial,
right.
Because often time owners leadership go,
well,
it's your problem,
Diane,
you and you and in hr go figure it out.
(16:13):
But we don't have a budget or we don't have the time of day to put this on the town hall meeting or to embed it in ongoing meetings and so on.
So you have the discussion of whatever size company you're in,
who's accountable within the company.
But also that you have to have buy in from the top,
which I completely agree with,
(16:33):
I guess in a broader perspective,
what role do employers pay when it comes to health care of their team members of their employees?
And this has definitely changed over the last 5 to 10 years.
And I have some strong opinions here,
but I'd love to hear what responsibility employers have and what expectations are on them.
(16:55):
Now,
I like organizations,
I end up doing,
doing this for the right reason being the humanitarian reason.
I specialized in a private company space.
They are like families.
You spend more time with your colleagues at work,
awake hours with your colleagues at work than you do with families.
So you have a role to play.
Right?
Oftentimes I'm the first one to see that your beautiful smile is not there anymore.
(17:18):
And I can interact.
So we play a huge role,
we can play a stronger voice that to bring change.
Why I said yes,
right away when I knew you wanted to do something like this.
But I think the care that we bring and challenging some of these maybe historical things like E A P,
any kind of size would have an E A P,
(17:39):
you know,
challenge it,
is it effective?
Does it work?
Why is your utilization?
Have you ever thought of bringing them in having a few lunch and learn?
So people at least know that this is for and the great services that they have.
There your earlier question,
Diane,
there was one component.
I didn't ask her when you said,
well,
deny,
you must have a team.
I don't,
we're,
we're maybe two people in this space working almost exclusively,
(18:05):
but we have 10,000 employees.
But my team Diane is 10,000 people and where it gets legs is that once you've created that culture where people are not afraid to talk about mental health.
Now we have mental health ally groups almost in all of our offices.
Another big thing is we have over 40 people groups.
(18:28):
Now self created an Asian professional group,
a Black professional group,
an aboriginal group,
a working mom's group,
a working dad's group.
Well,
these groups create safe spaces where as an example,
the Black Professional Network are bringing in their own mental health speakers.
And obviously all these group,
(18:48):
Diane have a huge mental health component.
You're creating a safe space where people can come and discuss issues that they're having with their life,
with their kids and new schools or whatever it contributes to their mental wellness.
So we provide guidance.
One of my teammates will host monthly calls where all these mental health allies from across the country dial in meet,
(19:13):
talk about best practices and so on.
And if anything,
now we got to do a better job at sharing what this office is doing versus that office so that we don't recreate the wheel.
But I personally think that's a great problem to have because they are doing what they need in their local market.
Not what we think we need out of Toronto.
(19:35):
What you just said was just so incredibly inspirational.
I really feel like change is coming.
And when you look at the statistics about what millennials are looking for in the workplace,
70% say they take a job based on mental health resources that the company offered.
(19:56):
They,
they pick one organization over another based on how the company cares for their employees.
And you know that saying if you take care of your employees,
they'll take care of the business you're living that.
So what's next,
Denis,
what's on your horizon that still needs to change?
It's not unusual,
by the way,
Diane,
that new team members tell me point blank,
(20:19):
deny.
I picked KPMG because of your mental health focus and I,
that brings a smile to my face even though I know we didn't do it for that.
But if you have intrinsic benefits,
you're a more attractive employer.
Because if that's a bonus,
what's in my horizon?
You know what one challenge going back to your very first question,
(20:43):
Diane on Stigma.
Somebody described me the other day as a zookeeper.
I'm not sure I want to go there with that example.
But it was more on the notion that Denis you have 10,000 exotic professionals with all this different skill set and,
and you know,
you've been instrumental.
Now there's a button on our home screen mental health at KPMG click boom.
(21:07):
I'm there videos lived experience and all of that.
But we hear you say that there's still a percentage of your team that has never clicked that button.
So the focus now internally on my horizon is what's in your mental health toolbox.
I just come back from a management retreat,
Diane and bam with our Calgary office about 300 people.
(21:30):
And I I started the session by saying,
you know what?
You're going back home tomorrow night and your child says,
mummy,
I think the world would be better off without me.
How are you feeling?
Or your aging dad is saying scary words like that.
How are you feeling?
Should have seen the silence and the phones go off to him just to nudge people a bit and then the discussion with another partner who shared his lived experience was around what's in your mental health toolbox.
(22:01):
You know,
like first date CPR you learn before you need this mental health toolbox for many people.
It's still empty.
There might be a few things but still not enough or it's dated.
I,
I find a lot of people have coping mechanisms but it's the same thing as when they were 22.
Now you're 36 you're in a relationship,
(22:21):
you're a partner at KPMG,
you're helping clients.
You have two or three little rug rats.
It's not working,
right?
So finding a way so that more people are populating their mental health toolbox,
making it even easier for people to find resources and,
and a huge enhanced focus.
Diane on non kpmg tools.
(22:45):
Why?
Because this is what my first couple of weeks of COVID looked like my inbox blowing up of people saying,
hey,
Denis,
I'm so happy.
I work here.
We have you,
we have er s we have a $2000 mental health benefit.
We have people group,
but I care for my little niece.
I care for my aging dad.
(23:06):
What do we have for them?
And I quickly realized Diane that Holy Jesus,
there's so many things out there that you can use for your little niece,
but my teams don't know about it.
So we invested a lot of time where putting on that page,
free resources for you in your circle of care and that's the bounce backs.
That's the mind beacons.
(23:26):
That's the ability C B and the list goes on and on of tools that our colleagues can access to buy them time because going back to the challenge of health care,
it is broken in this space.
We see what's happening at er,
you know,
my little grandson ended up at er with this new respiratory virus the other day.
(23:47):
So I not only saw it on the news,
I lived it mental health space.
You and I would probably agree that it's first.
Right.
I see you being released from hospital that tried to self harm and they're released with a list of referrals of professionals that aren't taking calls or are retired.
So,
having things in your mental health toolbox as a,
(24:09):
a parent,
as a caregiver that you can bridge not only yourself but family members is so critical.
So it's getting these additional team members to invest in themselves,
right?
Because we all have a role to play here,
Danny with your toolbox.
(24:29):
It sounds to me like you're primarily focused on prevention and I'm a big believer in prevention,
the things that we can do to help you to stay well or to move you from stressed back to healthy.
But you know,
better than almost anyone else that you can't yoga your way out of a severe depression.
There are times when you need a psychiatrist and one of the greatest challenges we have in this country.
(24:55):
At what really I believe is not a tipping point.
We're,
we're free falling over the edge here.
We're at a crisis point which is an opportunity for change.
People can't access care.
So what do you do as Chief Mental Health Officer at KPMG,
when you can't help people to get access to high quality psychiatric care?
(25:18):
Well,
benefits was one of them,
Diane,
like one of the first things I did the first year kind of looking at mental health benefit doesn't give you much help that you can go get.
We came out with a $2000 mental health benefit for all our employees regardless of whether they take their benefits with KPMG.
Because as you and I know,
(25:39):
right,
if my partner works for the government,
perhaps they have better benefits.
So I pick them there.
But at KPMG,
everybody has a $2000 mental health benefit.
And also trying to recognize the fact that certain of the professionals like psychiatry is covered by health care.
But psychologists and down or not,
we blew up the definitions because why should it really matter who you're using because old style benefits unless you've got 10 degrees beside your name,
(26:06):
they don't qualify if you're using a social worker and you're feeling well and you're getting your beautiful smile back.
Why would I care?
So the definition of what qualifies in that benefit is very,
very broad.
You have to draw the line somewhere,
right?
But it's still very,
very broad.
So people have that.
But I think the success for immediate care is having an E A P that you could rely on.
(26:31):
But also I think all these other resources they buy you time.
I mean,
they're not perfect.
Let,
let's be honest,
bounce back is not perfect but from mild to moderate and you don't know where to go.
You know,
you go in the chapter you want to buy a book and all of that,
I would argue that bounce back.
It's reliable.
You know,
there is some coaching,
(26:51):
there are some good books and so on that they give you that are very topical,
right?
Like mine,
Beacon is another one that it's not perfect.
But I remember using that one and testing it.
I,
I have a therapist.
I got to know the therapist,
I was giving homework.
I was evaluated.
Therapists would even probe me when I didn't do my homework.
(27:13):
I remember once I get this email saying,
hey,
deny,
I noticed you didn't do module four,
they did not for you or maybe you have questions.
So I thought wow,
for not for everybody once again,
but for some people there is tools like this that can bridge you.
They don't replace the psychiatrist and so on,
right?
But they bridge you in the short term until I can have my face to face with a professional such as yourself But what if you can't get to me or what if your colleague doesn't have a family doctor?
(27:44):
And I know that it's a big question and I,
I would love you to have all the answers.
Please tell me.
But the reality in Canada is,
you know,
a huge percentage of people don't have a family doctor.
If they have a family doctor,
they may not be comfortable with,
with taking that next step beyond the talk therapy into the prescribing.
And certainly the lack of access to psychiatry.
(28:07):
Is there an approach that you've worked on conversations that you've had that can shed a light on how you might have made an impact through your organization in helping to access care and you don't have to have an answer because none of us do at the moment we're working on it.
I think it's baby steps,
Diane.
I mean,
(28:27):
how do you fix it?
I don't know,
like even driving up to Mon Blan today,
my wife was driving and I googled a few things to see what's new Canada dot C A boom.
You hit provinces and I can get to mental health resources but it's so scattered.
I gotta go by province.
I gotta click 20 things before I get there.
(28:48):
So how do you fix that?
Right.
And I even went like I think the new 811 is not up and running everyone.
Right.
Newfoundland has it.
You would know better than me.
What other provinces?
But why isn't it that you and I cannot just call a number and then we would be told.
Well,
I think Jack dot org would be good for you or bounce back.
(29:08):
Like even during COVID,
I,
I won't name this minister,
but I remember being in the President's club presentation with one of the Ministers of Health and I said with all due respect when you go back to your office,
I challenge you to go find these amazing resources that you are paying for.
And I got a call a few days later by one of the team members saying Denis Mr Minister would just like you to know that you're right.
(29:35):
We can't find anything and we're gonna solve that.
Like even at KPMG,
if you were in distress,
you couldn't find anything.
Now you have no excuse because it's on your desktop.
Mental health app.
Click E fa P click.
So somehow if we could just change that Diane,
like when I speak to corporate Canada,
my walkway is,
where's your button on your home screen?
(29:56):
Many organizations now,
even one of the big banks has a button on their home screen.
Thanks to Denis.
People can find things right?
If somehow we could help Canadians at large find the things that we have.
They're not perfect,
but we have a lot of things.
What can we do so that listeners can find these things.
(30:17):
I,
I,
I don't know the answers but it's changing.
Right?
I think we're finally trying to think differently.
Right.
So I'm going to end with this question that uh I wonder how much it's going to be aligned with?
What you just said?
If you were granted a wish you were granted one mental health care wish from someone who really had the power to drive change.
(30:41):
What would that wish be to do something on the proactive side?
Because even when I started in my role,
Diane,
it was too reactive with time.
We had to move to dial.
I,
I would visit the offices,
tell you what we had,
right?
But it's almost too late then starting to listen to people,
(31:02):
people all of a sudden two years in would say that's awesome,
Diane.
But what do you have so that I could be more proactive so that when I do hit speed bumps in life and family relationships work,
I,
I've got,
I hate using the word resilience because,
you know,
for some,
it resonates some it doesn't.
But if we could do something and I think it ties back to the idea of a toolbox,
(31:26):
a toolbox is not just care items.
I love the plan for resilience that perhaps you were one of the knowledgeable folks involved in the development of that.
It has two pages on choosing healthier habits.
It has three pages where I can do a stress profile on me and you,
my partner can do it on me and we have a discussion so,
doing something on the proactive side so that people recognize,
(31:52):
hey,
like the mental health continuum,
don't wait till you're in the red.
Let's do something where you're bouncing in the,
in the yellow here a bit.
Not going back.
Because I think if we could do that,
we're owning our mental wellness.
I think it puts us in a better position to sort of take action and perhaps open up to a friend,
(32:14):
access E A P or maybe even talk to our GP.
I sort of laugh when you said how many people don't have a GP.
I sort of think many people who have a GP,
it doesn't matter anyway because the majority of the ones I support,
they're not even comfortable talking to their GP about this,
right?
So proactive would be my wish to give you something so that you've got a starting point that would pique your appetite to recognize that mental health is health.
(32:43):
Nobody can take care of it for you other than you.
And then maybe your curiosity,
you get involved with more things.
Denis,
as Canada's first chief Mental health Officer,
I think you have an awful lot to be proud of and I know that you're an inspirational leader in that role.
What are you most proud of this,
(33:04):
this role,
Diane,
this does not feel like work.
It is such a humbling role and I couldn't have dreamed of a better change of,
of,
of a role Diane and just to be a voice for corporate Canada as well is,
is,
you know,
for various organizations and helping them move the dial,
(33:26):
you know,
do a lot of stuff with Jack dot org now working with the Uns single with and things like that motivate me because I know the impact that they can have because they're touching so many people in a quick way.
Right.
I think Jack dot org interacts with over a million you to year now.
That's huge,
right?
I love things that you can have a podcast like this,
(33:49):
that will get a lot of listeners.
Hopefully you can get people to think differently and take a small action.
And I always say,
don't let this overwhelm you when I teach at Ivy,
I go like,
don't go back to the office and think you got to go from here to there overnight.
You don't have to start small.
Bring in this speaker every little action that you do put it on your agenda,
(34:13):
you eat that elephant one bite at a time.
Yeah,
that's I'll remember that.
Thank you so much for speaking so openly with me today.
You know,
the world needs more,
Denis,
more of your kind of incredible leadership.
You have the essence of what I think is the greatest leadership superpower,
(34:35):
which is vulnerability and your vulnerability has changed the lives of I'm sure countless individuals.
Thank you again so much.
For what you do.
Thank you,
Diane.
You're too kind right back at you all the amazing work you do in this space.
We're all in this together.
So let's continue to move to dial.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
(34:56):
Take care.
Denis is one of those rare individuals who has been through the worst of times but has been able to get the right help recover and find the courage and the energy to give back to so many others.
He illustrates the powerful hold that self stigma can still have on people holding us back from asking for the help we need when we need it.
(35:21):
Most Denis makes a powerful case for employers to invest deeply in resources both to treat and prevent mental illness.
He reminds us that mental illness can strike anyone and everyone can struggle with feelings of weakness,
shame,
fear,
and self stigma.
We have to keep working on breaking down those barriers and I'm so grateful to Denis for his caring leadership.
(35:45):
Until next time.
Thanks for listening.
The Wicked Mind podcast is a series of unique conversations with individuals that share experiences and perspectives on mental health care together.
We will uncover ideas that inspire action.
Please make sure you subscribe,
share and comment.
And if you have a topic or guest suggestion,
(36:08):
please reach out to me at Dr Diane McIntosh dot com.
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