Dream Weaving and the Liminal Artistry of Nico Wolf

This week we are buh-lessed to have Nico Wolf up in our radio sphere. She is a wizard of the healing arts, oracular arts, group ceremony, Earth wisdom ways, and Dreamwork. She is also herself a dreamboat, like an actual captain-facilitator of the boat that takes you to Dream World, and just a totally fascinating human to talk Spirit shop with.

We discuss working with dreams in a devotional way, exploring group dream work, and understanding the role of dreams in shifting culture during unsettled times.

Nico steeps us in the waters of liminal artistry - as in, becoming more and more literate in the wisdom of the cracks and in-betweens places within the web of known reality.

 

This episode will be a dang HOOT for anyone interested in:

• working with the language of Dreams as oracle, solace, and world-building material
• animist perspectives and interspecies relating
• water as a grief portal, water as a dream portal
• feeling like a spiritual or cultural orphan
• questioning the role of spiritual lineage when lifted out of land-based context
• the big ole tangle of white-bodied people grappling with their own severed indigeneity
• and raspberries as dream prophecy

📡 If you loooove this convo, go check out Nico’s gorgeous podcast Living Liminal

👽 Learn more about Nico’s upcoming workshops and how to work 1:1 with her HERE

🕸️ Nico’s IG

🤍 Book 1:1 Creative Coaching time with Melissa

 

Free Resources —

• Download Attention Reset - my free digital art zine on getting outta your head and into your body

 

Stay Connected —

• Follow Melissa’s Instagram for hot art memes
• Join Melissa’s weeklyish newsletter for creative musings and studio news

Big thanks to Ben Coleman for composing our theme music, and Gavin Bernard for vocals

🤍📡✨

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Music.

(00:45):
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Y'all, I'm so excited to bring you
the episode for this week.
It is a conversation between myself and a dear friend of mine, Nico Wolff.
I have been wanting to have Nico on the show for a while now because in my mind,

(01:07):
she is just a premier embodied scholar of dream work.
Of liminal artistry, like this really beautiful blend between spirit knowledge,
spirit journeying and questing, and artistic practice.

(01:28):
And I'm just so dream curious.
I'm not a person who works with my dream material a lot, but those conversations
certainly inspired I'd meet to be doing it more.
But what I love about Nico's work and world is that she's really interested in how dreaming,

(01:50):
like capital D dream world, it's a
place where we can source intelligence and we can source guidance and visionary
resources and material for building building and rebuilding the waking world that we're living in.

(02:12):
Perhaps you are someone who is experiencing a humanity in free fall or much
of life just feeling like it's coming apart at the seams.
Nico is gonna be a person who's like, let us go together, hand in hand, pillow,
head -upon pillow and ask, dream for the answers that we cannot see,

(02:35):
the answers that our limited mind, limited ego.
Um eclipses anyways i
could just wax poetic about
nico and her world forever but
let's just go find nico let's get into
the conversation um we talk about dreams and more enjoy okay now i'm inclined

(03:01):
to ask you if you remember anything about your dreams last night i do i actually
dreamt twice of my friend who's moving.
And in the first dream, I went to go help her pack.
And I started to cry, just realizing how much I was going to miss her.
And I woke up with a wet face full of tears. What? You dream cried? I dream cried. Yeah.

(03:29):
It hasn't happened to me in a while, actually.
And it just kind of woke me up
to oh yeah this person is really precious to me and
i need to really carve out some time before she packs up
and hits the road and then in my next dream i
met with her again and told her about the prior dream
what and then we cried together

(03:50):
in that dream and i woke up again more wet
face more wet face yeah um and
then the dream after that i'm forgetting uh this
is really weird it had to do uh
there was okay there was an african music
festival and then i ended

(04:12):
up somehow in a room there are some there are
a lot of other details but at one point my daughter had
her head inside side a raspberry container and was
like breathing through this raspberry container and
I looked at it and it was sort of like oh I'm a little worried that she can't
breathe well in there and it was kind of condensing and there was like a pad

(04:34):
underneath you know those raspberry containers like plastic with the perfect
yeah uh-huh so I had to take out the pad and then cut more open holes for her.
And then wildly enough, the first thing I heard this morning was my husband
packing her lunch saying, were your raspberries moldy yesterday?

(04:55):
These ones look moldy in this container. So what is going on?
Yeah. Okay. So DJ Dream PhD in the house.
That's you. You are DJ Dream, PhD.
You say, I mean, is that strange for you, though, to wake up and be like, that was so crazy?

(05:20):
Because I feel like you have kind of like semi-
would you call that a prophetic dream every time you've told me about your dreams
i've been like i've literally never had a dream like that in my life what.
Uh i get i guess so raspberries being
prophetic sure that seems like a bit of a waste of
prophecy but maybe or just i mean

(05:41):
like they're the the like the membrane
between waking world and dreaming
world like the themes are really fluid
yeah for sure um i'm.
I'm consciously working with
my dreams most nights i i tend
to kind of take off of the night shift every once in

(06:03):
a while and just ask for rest and no dreams
um just because there is so much that
awakens in my day life
from my dream life from my night life um and
so it just feels like there's always a lot that's coming through and
I do write my dreams every day and then my favorite

(06:23):
thing is working in groups with dreaming
because I feel like a lot of our um yeah
just the possibility ability of shifting culture could
come from that dream state and if
i have personal things that i need to work
with i will like reserve my dream space for

(06:45):
that but i i'm more interested in dreaming
in a devotional way these days um and i do have uh yeah with with night house
and with people that i i work with i tend to set these kind of dream share dreaming
intentions and And then just see what wants to come through with dreams to be at service.

(07:06):
To be of service a dream. Yeah.
So would you say that dream work is like the foundation or like the,
the river floorboard holding up most of the work that you do,
or is it like canopy stars?

(07:27):
Like, how do you think, because you do really a lot of really magical things,
which I'm sure we'll get into, but in terms of how you think of like either
the foundation or the canopy umbrella,
that encompasses all of the work.
I know dreaming is quite a serious thread.

(07:48):
Yeah, it's for sure one of my favorite modes of working, but I think of all
of it as just being in conversation with the more than human world.
So I feel really excited
about dream because it's this
place of shutting off from the linear mind and getting that

(08:08):
kind of prefrontal cortex out of the way and so
whenever we have things that come through from dream it's it's true right it's
like there it's stripped away of ego and of judgment and of this kind of containment
of what it is to be in human form and cuts through to that place of formlessness

(08:29):
and that that that liminal land.
And in my waking work, I feel like we're trying to access that kind of hypnagogic
state, that dream state,
or that trance state or that place that allows us to open up perception in a
way that's not just to mind speaking,

(08:52):
but the beings that all want to
be in conversation the more than human beings the things
that are you know in our kind of scientific worldview
not normally listened to in that way and
so yeah i i think
of i think of dream as like i think

(09:14):
of it as like the mother tongue of all beings and
so we're in this weave together that
is the dream that's dreaming us all and when we
shut off from our waking selves
then we can access that fully completely immerse
you know immerse our whole being in that and then the work that i like to do

(09:37):
when we're awake so that we can also still work with like will and imagination
and all of these ways of going in still invites the dream to come to the forefront front.
So in some ways, yes, dream is like the main thread, but it's also just.
One name for that layer of perception or that layer of conversation that deeper conversation,

(10:02):
does that make sense it does and
it makes me think about how i know you
to be someone who identifies as a liminal artist like
thinking of that like when you say that dream this is sort of another word for
that that way of perceiving consciousness that like threshold threshold opening

(10:23):
that gap the place the thing else can rush in yeah absolutely.
Yeah i was and go ahead oh i was i was talking to somebody actually our mutual friend daje,
hello story doula um the other day and we were kind of talking about these like

(10:47):
human suits that we wear and what we want to call ourselves and why the liminal artist.
And I had this whole feeling of like, it's about kind of being in those cracks.
So if you can think about, you know, if there's like this broken piece of pottery,
instead of like identifying with one of those pieces, the formed pieces,

(11:10):
like what if we kind of identify as being in the cracks where we can travel
between all those islands of being and all those islands of like awareness.
And in being in those liminal spaces,
we can really like open up to just deeper conversation and traversing divides
and, you know, coming back to that place of interconnectivity that I just feel

(11:34):
like we need so badly right now. Mm-hmm.
It's also such a place of movement, right? Like the fixed...
Fragments in that image it's like sort of
what we've been trained to really try to grab on to and cling to right it's
like oh let me just like get my instagram bio just right and like fix it and

(11:58):
collapse it into this legible identity right and that like so much of perception is about,
just like trying to grab on for dear
life to the yeah the hard surfaces that that we feel like won't be like a rug
that pulls out from underneath us and yeah what i hear you really reaching for

(12:20):
and describing in addition in some kind of other side of the spectrum to that is like.
Oh but what if we just like intentionally stay in the movement zone in the like
in between where the wind is moving the water is moving the dust is moving the

(12:40):
wilds yeah wilds and therefore,
be somehow inoculated for when the rug does move
out from underneath the feet because we already are part
of that weave yeah exactly yeah we
already are traversing that wild landscape yeah i
i also think about it as like you know as soon as you put up the fences and

(13:03):
like domesticate the thing it also is this it's a it's a different type of relationship
one that one is hierarchical and also renders the thing kind of inert like it stops being this.
Hey gav hey gav,

(13:27):
hello um yeah so when when the thing starts like yeah if you if you can hem
something in in that way it becomes like this relationship of extraction right
so like i i talk a lot about um,
the relationship with a a lamb in

(13:50):
a pen that you have the fence around that you're throwing the
hey to every day that you expect to eat at one point is
really different than that fox that
visits every night at dusk and maybe you leave a little
treat out and every time every night you get a little bit closer and
so it's like there's this like sovereignty of
being that can remain in kind of those

(14:11):
liminal spaces in the wilds and the conversation becomes
one that is you know unfurling and alive rather than just like this kind of
inert symbolism that can happen when we want to put things in like neat little
boxes in our world it's true about dream but it's true about just how we interact

(14:33):
with waking life in general.
Hmm. You know, I, I'm so, I really have been wanting to talk to you about dream stuff for a while.
I think because I have some, like, I, I feel really like this is a really underdeveloped

(14:54):
musculature-ness within me.
Um, but I know so many witches
and weirdos and artists who really work with the
dream terrain quite a bit um and
it makes
me it makes me wonder right now if like because of the
way you talk about like inviting dream or

(15:17):
um bringing doing
the actions to bring dream to the forefront as a collaborator and co-conspirator
to like find this liminal way of perceiving in the waking life as well i'm like
i wonder if my dream life feels.

(15:41):
Like not a space i'm
trying to find the language to really describe this i think my
experience has been that like wow i have these extremely wacky wild snapshots
within my dreams um but they either have historically been very bewildering and anxiety-inducing,

(16:06):
or I don't really remember them.
But I also have not had the experience of actively inviting or setting a kind
of intention with the dream world.
So I wonder, I'm curious to hear you talk more about that. Yeah,
well, I, it's interesting to hear you say that, like the musculature of dream, right?

(16:30):
I mean, it's, it's like anything, when we practice, and when we carve out the
space to have it, you know, be more at the forefront, it'll show up in that way.
You know, if we take the walk at dusk, maybe we will see the fox.
If not, then who knows? um and
so yeah the i i feel like a lot
of it is is connecting intentionally

(16:53):
in that way and so you know
the the practice of setting intention like i want to learn from my dreams and
then you start to really build those bridges it's like bushwhacking at first
where you're going out into the into the wilderness and kind of carving out
those trails but every time you you set the intention and you work with it and

(17:14):
you honor it when it comes,
then the more that pathway starts to open up.
Um, there was something else I was going to say about that. Uh, uh.
Oh, and the other part of it too is like,
I think of you as such a dreamer, just knowing what you do in your creative

(17:35):
process and in your opening up to these like liminal places of perception and
then creating from that.
So you're already like making huge forays into your waking life through your
art, through your creativity, through your embodiment work.
And so I find that like sometimes when there's enough of a flow during the day

(17:58):
between those two realms at night, sometimes the body and the psyche just wants to rest, you know?
Like, I don't think of it as like, you know, like you need those periods of
fallow as an artist or as a creative being.
And sometimes that can just be like your MO at night.

(18:18):
But if you're actually really wanting to work to bring that out more,
building those bridges and honoring.
So like simple things like writing them down or in my dream last night,
I was wearing orange. So today I'm going to wear orange, just like saying I'm listening, you know?

(18:38):
Yeah. Yeah.
Wow.
Interesting. Yeah. To hear you say that first reflection, I do feel that way
where I'm kind of like, man, I just feel like I'm dropping into sort of like
that daydreamy space often.

(19:00):
Like I really do let my brain do that during the waking hours.
And it does just feel like so trippy up in here a lot.
Well, I'm just bumping around being a being a little noodlehead in the day.
But I do. Yeah, I love that. I just think that so much of the unseen world is

(19:24):
really just about, hey, I'm listening on our side of things.
It's actually really simple, like working with guides, working with any sort
of entities and benevolent forces for creative expression, for support, for information.

(19:44):
Yeah. It's all just like, hey, what's up? I'm here and I'm listening to you.
Exactly. It's like any relationship that's, you know, even a relationship in form, like how are you?
Are you having a chat with the guy who's making your coffee in the morning?
Are you just saying, yep, walking out the door, you know, so it just really
depends like what you're putting your attention and where it feels like reciprocal

(20:09):
and alive and participatory.
And um yeah and and dream is is its own realm and its own spirit and it's in
itself so if you're saying hey i'm listening to the conversation you're wanting
to have it'll give you more you know.
Aka have you made eye contact with your barista today yes exactly,

(20:35):
do you have this sense that like the dream world is tended by specific beings,
or is like dream consciousness one like what kind of what kind of,
impossible language might you put to in this particular moment it could change

(20:57):
tomorrow but what is your little spidey sense about like who what how is weaving the dream world.
This dream it's it's weaving itself is what it feels like um it's like a self-realized realm,

(21:20):
um i i tend to
really feel the quality of dream through water
or through through like liquefied
consciousness and oftentimes will describe
the feeling of like when you first come out of
a dream you don't want to break the current of
the dream almost like you're surfacing from this

(21:43):
like still pool of water and you don't want to you know
cause any waves and that allows the dream to stay
in intact and allows people to remember the dream
so i feel like there's there's like
a and i and i've had some unordinary i'll
just say experiences around like water and dream that
have have really linked those

(22:06):
two qualities together um the liquid quality and the quality of dream um or
Or almost like this nectar that is alive and vital in all things that can really be a visceral sense,
especially in the in-between when you're either just waking up or falling into sleep.

(22:34):
So I'd say that the waters are definitely, they feel like a gateway to dreaming.
And recently, I taught a course called Wineros.
And the mythology around that, the Wineri are like the dreaming deities,
which they come in like a flock of dark winged beings.

(22:56):
Um, and, and the dark wing beings have definitely been showing up in a lot of
people's dreams, uh, that were in that course.
And then also in, in other work with me and also in my waking world. Um.
So those feel like some beings who are, through mythology and through just lived

(23:16):
experience, want to be part of the kind of keeping of the dream world,
I would say, and the ushering in.
And then just knowing a little bit about the mythology there,
I'm definitely not like a mythology buff.
I kind of prefer to experience mythology as like a living thing and then,
oh, say, oh, that's actually a thing in ancient Greece.

(23:37):
That's kind of cool. um after the fact after
i've experienced it um but in with the
with the mythology around like ancient greece
and dreaming there's this uh understanding that you actually travel across this
like ocean that surrounds the world of consciousness and then go through the

(23:57):
dreams actually travel back and forth through these gates and one is a horned
gate which the true dream comes through.
And one is an ivory gate that these kind of deceptive dreams come through.
And the Winnieroi, the ones who kind of, you know, usher the dream through,
they come through either of these gates and you can traverse these realms.

(24:20):
So in some of the dream work that I've been doing, we'll actually,
in waking journey, in waking dream or journey,
we'll travel across that ocean and then
through that horned gate and then into these like temples
of dreaming so they feel like
these places that are actually they've been

(24:41):
tended in the consciousness throughout time and they're still accessible for
us so it's all wait okay hold up i have 18 million questions okay this is beautiful
this is just such a gorgeous image but you're saying that like Like,
did you drop into like personal experience there by saying like you in waking

(25:04):
life will like take yourself in like a meditative state through your imagined
perception of these gates? Yes.
Kind of like like lay the Hansel and Gretel crumbs for yourself in dream world, dream life.

(25:24):
Um lay the hansel say more about that
hansel the way that i understood that
example or or describing that experience was like
if you consciously take yourself on
like a meditative journey this like visualization of
taking your consciousness through those gates that it

(25:44):
like lays the path for you
to traverse that same almost like neural
pathways you you've like reverse that in
the realm yes of sleepy
time state yeah a more
lubricated pathway i'm like thinking of like totally that hansel
and gretel would leave totally so in that yeah so in that group that i worked

(26:09):
with we did we traveled through and into this dreaming temple that we all shared
waking consciousness around um and kind of described to each other as a group
and so every Every time we would work, we would work back into that temple.
So in our waking work, we would be in that imaginal realm together.
It's hard to call it imaginal because it's very much real. It's just in another realm.

(26:33):
And then the same thing when I would give them dreaming prompts,
I would ask that they find their way into the temple through that same traversing of that landscape.
That is so beautiful. beautiful yeah it so much beauty came out of that and
to do that as a group that was,

(26:54):
working with dream in a devotional way not just for
like our own you know benefit there was all of this like crossover and like
being able to seed back into the dream world and then bring back out and then
work with these like creative processes to honor what we saw in the dream world yeah it was fun.

(27:16):
I'll do that all day every day oh my god that just that's really like doing something,
to my spirit to um get the secondhand experience of just hearing that process
described with like what could happen when a group of people are engaged in that kind of,

(27:42):
um devotional effort yeah yeah.
And i love this sorry you
were gonna say something no i'm just gonna continue sighing heavily keep going
yeah it's like we all kind of like left the shore of you know our our personal

(28:03):
agenda in a way too like i'm really interested in um i don't know i'm thinking about like,
bio komalafé's work like that you know thinking about that that the way that
we try to solve the problem becomes part of the problem itself and how a lot
of that i think stems from this kind of,

(28:24):
egoic mind and the structured mind the linear mind that's within these structures that are now
clearly needing to fall apart and so then how do we find what that new life
is that wants to birth in the decay we have to kind of like leave a shore that
we're used to and so that that um.

(28:47):
That traversing that landscape and going out across
the waters feels really right to me in that where it's
we're seeking this this new land of
you know what's going to flourish next
for humanity because clearly what we've been doing
is really not working so i i
really love this kind of like post-activist view

(29:10):
of of dream time where you know
a lot of people think of dreaming as this sort escape or
this um etheric thing right but for
me it feels more like no like we actually really need some more spirit-informed
life force and vitality to like breathe back into what wants to form next in

(29:33):
in this liminal time in humanity like we're really between worlds right
now yo right you better preach.
Yeah like dream dreaming together as an affront to the tyranny of logic mind
yes like we have seen like part of this liminal moment that we're in is like

(29:57):
we're seeing the jenga tower that logic built mm-hmm,
like logic to its like sort of most perverted skewed
exploitive um point and
now we're like watching in slow motion the like jenga tower free fall and that

(30:17):
yeah in this in this transitional moment this liminal moment this like strange
lobby that we're in of like what's gonna happen next Next,
the strange issue is that we're all like still overly programmed by the logic
mind that built the crumbling Jenga tower.

(30:37):
And so you're describing like, okay, we're going to all like get in our little
rowboats and travel out across this water of, I mean, yeah, it's like bio's word also.
I just always associate him with the word fugitive, right? You could say that
fugitive is like running away from, right?

(30:57):
Like how you were describing like Reem could be or is sometimes perceived as
like escape, but it's like.
It's actually more like this fringe trickster energy that has to be cultivated.
And that musculature feels deeply underdeveloped and undernourished.

(31:20):
Yeah yeah and it's
it's part of this like reclamation of the
animist worldview and how to
just be in that type of multiplicity
kind of relationship to everything that's
there because i really i
i know that dream is the connecting

(31:43):
thread you know the tributary
i mean you started off by talking about like the tributary between i don't think
you used that word but like the space between the the pottery fragments and
i just immediately saw that as like river delta yeah water right like watery
travel it also reminds me of um,

(32:07):
martin prechtel's work death work and like talking about.
This image and then this is like such a
i think a global indigenous image of
how spirits travel across they leave
the beach they leave the beach of this um mortal
world this world of form and they drift

(32:29):
into the land of formlessness of the ancestors of
the the what elseness the beyond on but they
travel across a body of water made by
the tears of everyone who loved them and if
we don't cry for our dead they don't have water
to travel on and they become like stranded in
this middle zone yes

(32:53):
but it's that they they embark a spirit
leaves their body in the world to form and they embark into this watery abyss
to get to where they're going next yeah and this dream work feeling like post-activist
but like deeply like this very radical approach to dreaming.

(33:16):
As like i mean it feels like you're evoking kind of a death ritual too like
we're watching yes the old die and.
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's like the life giving waters that will bring,
you know, the new thing in the compost of what's what's happening right now.

(33:37):
You know, and you talk about tears. It's interesting that dream last night with the tears.
Right. And it's like the tears that allow us to see clearly something one of
my teachers said, said about tears.
And then also even just like all of the nectars of the body,
like, you know, not just the tears that, yes,

(33:58):
the grief that opens and is such a portal to bring together that forest feeling
of like being a human and having that empathy and having that love and having
things loosen and move in that way.
Like the dream the the tears is also like the loosening um
but then i even think about you know one

(34:19):
of one of our teachers uh naomi lewis
was taught us a lot about the nectars of the body too
so it's like the nectar of of breath as being um you know it's it is it's part
water and it's this constant exchange so when you're like breathing you're you're
with the weather and And it's the thing that like links you to all beings all

(34:41):
over the world that that,
you know, the way that you receive and give the water of your body.
It sounds very dune like to me right now, actually.
Wow. And even the ecstatic sweat that happens when you're like dancing in a room full of people.
And it's not just that you're working out sweat, but when you feel like God

(35:03):
arrive in the body and you're sweating in that way that like, you know.
Or um i don't know i mean anything like babies are born from the water so there's
just this also this the universality of working with the like life-giving waters
and how akin to dream that really feels i feel like dream is almost the um.

(35:29):
The conscious manifestation of of
water i would say of those nectars wow
it's reminding
me this i sometimes think about it but i was working with it a lot like 20 in
the 2020 era um where i was like i i love baths bathing is my church being in

(35:54):
the baths It's a very sacred activity for me.
But I had this, it was in a really particularly hyper-challenging moment in that year.
And I was in a bath and I saw this whole kind of what I perceived to be another

(36:17):
lifetime that I had lived sort of flash before my mind's eye.
Mm-hmm and i continued to work with it in the bath like for a couple of weeks
and the best that i can put it to words was like i had this,
this perception that like by putting my body in the water that i was um.

(36:45):
It's like almost like a dousing rod or like a an antenna that's that picks up
information in the water's currents and i'm like because this water has always
been on this planet it is carrying,
all of this data all of this information
yeah and if i have certain aspects of
the porousness of my body kind of like open and

(37:08):
available that this information that belonged to me when my consciousness like
existed in another form or someone else's conscious not even even necessarily
like a past life but like just to be able to get this like packaged kind of um,
reality this packaged form of another lifetime delivered into my pores and to

(37:34):
just see it kind of like a movie play out in front of me and and the other piece
I was like wow cool man but the The other piece of that was like,
I can, it's still there. It's still like an open space.
Portal that timeline is still happening concurrently yeah
and i can like send information

(37:57):
through the like i'm thinking of like solo cups with a string between them you
know like there's information that can actually that this membrane is still
porous yes yes specifically specifically through the incredibly psychedelic medium of water.
Absolutely. Yeah. It's tripping out in the bathtub.

(38:21):
Totally sober dog. I was like, wow, this Tulsi tea is getting me lit, baby.
Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely have had some pretty psychedelic experiences just with water.
And of that being one

(38:42):
of the mediums to travel through it's like
water knows the cracks it knows how to get into those liminal
spaces and we open ourself to that conversation
and there it is you know yeah and it's also i mean i'm just thinking about i'm
gonna do a retreat called as above so below in the way that uh we work with

(39:03):
the heavens and and the earth and the planetary influences and the weather and
the ways that things move and then also anchor.
But just even thinking about water being the thing that bridges heaven to earth
in the form of rain and also even just living out here in the desert,

(39:24):
you really understand that water is life. You really get that here.
All the acequias where the greenery is formed
around and having to work with your neighbors to
like flood your field to grow the food and it's just
everything is like organized around the sacredness
of water you know yeah okay

(39:47):
so tell me tell me
a little bit about like how you became initiated
into this world of dreams world of being obsessed with water world of being
just Just the absolute incredible like myth and symbol embodied in delightful

(40:10):
noodle form. Noodle form.
Wow. I don't know. I mean, I think I would say that I always had...
So I almost died at birth. Like my coming into this world was pretty rough.
And I think just as a little kid, like I feel like that experience just left

(40:35):
me a little bit more porous to the other world, I would say.
And Kermit the Frog, Kermit the Frog was my initiation into the world of streaming. Get out. Yep.
He used to show up in my dreams when I was having like a tense dream or something
that I was like kind of, you know, as a little kid being kind of freaked out

(40:56):
by him. I'm thinking around like age five or six, this was happening.
And he would show up and he'd say, here we go.
And then I would experience my consciousness, like leaving my body and then
traveling in the cosmos.
And then, of course, because I'm five or six years old, where would I go if
I'm like in this lucid astral projection dream state, but my friend's playroom

(41:19):
that I really like to play in.
So where the dope toys are
yeah she had a really cool bmx bike
back then and yeah i just i would go and
play at night um and then there would be this time where like my i would feel
my physical body start to like tug at a thread um i don't really know how to

(41:40):
describe it other than that i would just feel this kind of like gravity back
to my physical body and i would just get shot right
back into my body, into my bed.
Every once in a while, it would get hard for me to get back in until it got
increasingly hard enough where I stopped astral projecting, probably around age eight or nine.

(42:03):
But that initial experience of dream and being able to leave the physical form
definitely informed how I just was in the world.
I would talk to bees and trees and flowers.
I grew up in Taiwan I was I was born in Hong Kong and I
lived there in Taiwan um and had

(42:24):
this like incredible like lush jungle to to
play in in my backyard with like crazy poisonous snakes and like amazing lizards
and so I was just I mean those are my my people you know like I was I was really
introverted as a child and just um and an artist and so I would I would really take the time to

(42:47):
just be in conversation with the natural world and just really develop that from a young age.
And it took a long time to kind of contextualize or like.
Find my way into the human world i would say
it's still it's still a challenge putting on the
human suit every day um as i was talking about
earlier but it's um but it feels like i i that's just my my space and existence

(43:15):
is like in that edge dwelling place between the formless and the human and the
you know more than human and all of these conversations that want to happen and,
and then just developing that through creativity
and through expression um so that
i mean that was kind of like the start but it's as far as
like initiation practices and actual kind

(43:38):
of things that have been set up or experienced or
came in uh gosh i feel like spirit thinks i'm dense because there have been
a lot it would take take another couple hours uh-huh all about out the wild
things i've been into i am freaking obsessed with kermit the freaking frog as your,

(44:00):
here we go he would say is that like a is that like a thing that he would say
in on the tv that's just how you're that's just how he showed up and yeah yeah
oh my god dream shepherd astral doula.
Kermie water being right come on water doula yeah yeah,

(44:28):
yes little frog that's right i just see him as such an um like absorbent sock
right forget that he is actually portraying a water creature yes yeah he's amphibious yeah aqueous,
Wow.
That's so fascinating. I'm also really interested in you trying to reach for

(44:52):
the language to describe this visceral language.
Um like again the like the
liminal space between consciousness and
like the very dense meat of the physical body it's
like when you were describing like pulling the thread as like
your parachute like you're pulling the parachute to get
back down into your body yeah and that that's

(45:14):
like how the language that's the
closest approximation you can like grab i'm
so interested in like trying to find the
imperfect language to describe these kind of strange
like buttons or levers or like
like pulling spiritual technologies yeah

(45:35):
of like pulling the library book off the
shelf and the weird portal appears but in
the in inner perception yeah how we describe the buttons yeah the spiritual
technology totally i'm so i'm i'm so into that these days kind of also the pan-cultural
meeting places of those technologies and how we get kind of knocked off center um.

(46:01):
Yeah that there's there's just so many ways in and
through but i've been been really excited
about kind of doing this like cross-comparative study
of like the classical shaman shaman work and like
the you know this thing I learned in Europe and um
you know zen practice and whatever
all the different things that I've been exposed to

(46:23):
in my lifetime or even like yoga practice and there
are certain like ways in that I really I like to just know what the finest particles
are because it gives this kind of like this freedom to to be your own you know
in in the lab In the lab, in the lab, yes.

(46:46):
And taking a little bit of breath and a little bit of sound and a little bit
of this and that and just like knowing that we all have these,
the experience of being in a human body and that there are these tried and true ways of like,
going in and that they don't necessarily
need to be cloaked in a story or anchored to a specific lineage.

(47:08):
And that that feels also like this sort of leaving the shoreline of like what's,
ownable and describable and, you know, just that whole, that also feels like,
I don't know, this kind of, I guess, is it the hierophant?
The like going in that deeper level of that thing that just connects all of

(47:28):
it um so i've definitely been exploring a lot a lot of that lately like what
are the elements what are the what's what are the the bits and bobs that make up that,
passageway into the unseen oh oh my gosh i am jumping up and down in my in my seat um Um, okay.

(47:52):
Do you, because you are someone who has been trained in a variety of shamanic practices, right.
That are tethered to a specific lineage or a specific tradition, right.
Or a specific Muppet.
I had to throw it back in there.

(48:16):
Right. But like, okay. So do you, um
i feel like 15 questions are like converging all
at once um i think i just want to hear you talk more about that and that like
do you feel like that's part of um this like liminal moment that we are in in
our like in the evolution of human consciousness that the um like imperative

(48:43):
or the the marching order or the
like fun agenda is that we all kind of start to develop our own like everybody
get in your lab yeah get in your little lab yep because like we don't need to
be up in the agenda oh not here right here right here we don't need to be up in the like.

(49:05):
Um allegiance to the lineage yeah
anymore do you think there's still value in
that i mean i'm just also thinking like i feel like as
a white person from america that i
have such an experience of orphan culture and orphan
spiritual lineage in general

(49:26):
yeah yeah like of course
i'm going to skew towards like yeah we should
all just be making it up and like listening to our
like go talk to our own gods and guides to
find the intel but i guess my question you'll you'll you'll you'll answer that
however i don't know what this is it goes in so many different directions i

(49:49):
want to like talk about 10 things at once yeah so sorry were you done with your question uh i.
Yeah, I guess if there is a question to distill there, if and to what degree
do you feel like there is value in still working with lineage?

(50:10):
Working with lineage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been asking myself this a lot lately.
Um okay so yes i
think that there is value in working with lineage
and i think it is
most effective when it's contextualized within
a culture that maybe that you've

(50:31):
been a part of or are living in or yada
yada so what i mean by that is
you know ayahuasca i think that that plant has
its own agenda is what i understand about it
now um i've never actually sat with i've
i've sat in a room with ayahuasca but never if i ingested
it so i'm familiar with its spirit through just you

(50:53):
know checking it out in that way and just really
clearly got like wow it's its own being that like wants
to do its thing and it wants to actually like open minds
in different parts of the world and also
i've seen so many people
go and get completely fucked up
and blasted and not be able to

(51:14):
integrate those cathartic experiences back in their lives and like what is the
point of that right right and so in if you're living in the jungle in peru and
that's part of your culture and you know the stitching above your couch is made
from like the vision that you.
Know your ayahuasquera saw when they're serving medicine and you have a context

(51:39):
for the song and the language and your community is holding you in the context
of those big experiences,
that's how i feel like lineage is meant to be held it's within context right
yeah and so us as like like, orphaned people.

(51:59):
I don't even know what the hell I am, right? Like, I, my, my daughter came home.
She's like, Mom, what if somebody asked me what my ethnicity is?
What am I supposed to say?
I literally had like, all 10 fingers out.
You have some Indian, you have Indonesian in there, you have Chinese,
you have, you know, my, my lineage,
Moroccan, Algerian, I have, you know, know irish polish french

(52:21):
like look it's just i go on and on and
it's like okay well cool so you have potential
to connect to all of those lineages or we can look at the context in which we're
trying to connect to the divine and feel what is present moving through your

(52:42):
body and the landscape in which that's arriving.
We're on stolen land here in the middle of the desert where actually.
Of most places i've lived on this planet is
still very much intact in terms of the
human and nature relationship by

(53:04):
and large because there is a contextualized lineage
that's still happening on this land with the pueblo people with the tiwa people
of this land and i just get full body chills when i just like the level of appreciation
that i have for that and like in the context of like That's still happening
despite all that those people have gone through.

(53:27):
I mean, that is strong, strong medicine, right?
And yet I am not one of those people. That's not my context in how I've incarnated in this lifetime.
I've come from, you know, I mean, talk about living in the divides.
My dad was raised like Catholic and Irish-Polish zone.

(53:49):
Own and my mom is like this hot-blooded Moroccan who
was raised Jewish actually and you know it's just like
all of it couldn't be more different people
than I was born in Hong Kong right so like I mean we're a golden corral buffet
sister what the heck is going on in my world and how do how do I like well you
know so it's like finding again that's like why I'm really interested in like

(54:13):
well what is the what are the common denominators of like just being a human in a body.
And thinking about like trans state and how we get there and how we like create
ritual and create ritual that's contextualized within not just our own body
and our communities but within like the
lands that we're working with i'm not going to go and like do some giant water

(54:36):
ritual where i'm like wasting a bunch of water in the middle of the desert right
like i'm listening to what what the plants and the soil and like what wants
to happen in relationship there.
So I don't, I didn't really answer your question.
I just made more questions. I think that's the nature of this whole topic though, because it, it, it.

(55:01):
Yeah, I do think that there is such a, in the orphan-ness and in the,
I mean, this is so much, I don't know if we've actually talked about this,
but I'm like currently a year into a very rigorous 12-step recovery practice.
And it feels like one of the trippiest, absolute.

(55:26):
Bonkers, psychedelic, spiritual framework for recovering the indigenous self,
recovering the essential self, recovering the parts of us that knew how to be woven in.

(55:48):
To the allness and um my
sponsor refers to uh
like whether it's alcoholism substance codependency any of these maladaptive
behaviors that are a coping mechanism for the the severing to the land to spirit

(56:09):
to each other as um white business man's disease,
that like alcoholism could
by another name is white businessman's disease and that
that's really kind of like what's in the the water of
this this country that we're on and
that this overachieving

(56:34):
this ambition wound this like needing to assert
oneself self at the individual yeah yeah that just the supreme rise of the entitled
individual and the cost everything that that costs absolutely but that's really what we're so.

(56:56):
Um like wounded by and afraid
of and and scared of um and yeah
when i like to think about the the orphan culture and
it's sort of like in the the spiritual like
white wellness white spiritual world of like seeking these

(57:18):
lineages that are out of context like you
described from where we are currently or
how we grew up um or the paradigm
that our our programming was really shaped in that like
yeah there is this sort of like grabby there's the potential of this very grabby

(57:38):
energy with like seeking a lineage seeking an authority um that.
The question I sort of wonder about to myself is, I mean, I've certainly been
through my seasons of really like, I mean, the first example that comes to mind

(58:03):
is like Kundalini Yoga, right?
I'm just like, oh, man, I get such a high.
It's so trancy when I come out of Kundalini Yoga. yoga and um like what a strong
sort of like uh rigid framework that that can kind of be um,

(58:24):
that there's yeah i don't know and maybe not even answering the question might
have lost the plot here but i'm it just really has me thinking so much about
like the soft bodiedness that is kind
of required within a more
orphaned framework yeah that like what

(58:47):
is the thing that's going to just like keep reminding us that we already possess
in this like unbelievably rich technology that is our body, spirit in this form.
That like we have our own ways in that don't have to be like,

(59:11):
So grabby looking for the authority or who's going to be able to tell us how
to talk to God, who's going to be able to tell us how to find that hypnagogic or trance state.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're all we're all looking for mommy,
you know, like, it's so it's it like, actually,
you know, like the grief work that you do, I think is so important in this moment of our,

(59:34):
you know, collective being because we kind of were, you know,
in this like rebel stage of like, we're gonna leave the leave the homeland and
come and like conquer this new thing, whatever.
Like the the story of the Americas is like, is such an intense one.
And it's also it's also
the result of some serious trauma and

(59:57):
grief and like you know the the white bodied
timeline in history too like we went from
we went from a people who had a
rich culture that was earth honoring and had
that hugely just wiped out of
our awareness which is so you know

(01:00:17):
a lot not a lot of people like think along those lines
like of what's the indigent indigeneity of
white like white-bodied people like there's
really like not much oh we know like belting and whatever like there's some
reclamation reconstruction of that stuff but it actually is so it again it's
like there's no context for it because it's also removed from the lands where

(01:00:42):
it originated and And the stories that it grew from where,
you know, the Bluebell Woods, there's no Bluebell Woods around here.
Like that kind of thing, like those mythopoetic markers that form the stories,
that form our perception and our ability to kind of enter into the imaginal
and therefore into the other world through that lens.

(01:01:06):
Yeah, I'm tempted. Well, I'm just going to talk about it.
When i one of the people that i i
studied with there's um a school in
england that just recently kind of dissolved collapsed
um around a lot
of plagiarism that was in it was simon buxton's

(01:01:26):
book the shamanic way of the bee and a
lot of people found that work as thinking
of it as a as an unbroken european lineage
that stayed intact through the times
of patriarch patriarchal religion and if
you can imagine the like feeling of like

(01:01:47):
oh i found my mommy i found it's the holy grail the homeland we found the lost
ark exactly if you can feel that and like you know and and And the amazing like
imagination that that unfurled for people going there to do that work.

(01:02:08):
And I mean, I had incredible experiences of being full of God and having complete
miracles laid out in front of me.
And also, it just came to be that all of this plagiarism was found.
The lineage itself is now under question. We don't know how much of it happened
in ordinary reality with real people handing down knowledge or like through

(01:02:33):
channeling or whatever other means.
Some of it was um actually pieced
together from different lineages like uh
there was a navajo or a dene tradition that
was like woven in there was a toltec thing that was brought in
so without crediting any of these lineages
so talk about talk

(01:02:56):
about some orphans that just happened this has been
going on for like the last and yet and
yet there were wild things
that i knew to be already true in my body before
landing there that then unfurled and and
created story around like living myth around
them because the conditions were right so i'm really interested in that conversation

(01:03:21):
of like what are the conditions we need to just feel god and what are the conditions
we trust that our body has this like wisdom that's coming through and maybe
there's really specific.
Beings from you know greek times
that want to come through us and work with us or from um you know sumerian times

(01:03:42):
or whatever those things are that potentially could be in our bloodline still
you know or maybe it's like cross wiring like i don't know how that stuff moves
like Like we, we don't know, right?
Like, yo, just being open and saying, yeah, sure.
I'm willing to be in conversation, whatever the porosity of my being,

(01:04:05):
like wants to call in at this moment, like bring it, I'm here for it. I'm listening.
It's important. You know, I'm glad you mentioned this.
I remember when you, um, when you and I had a call and you were telling me about,
this This was like the fresh hell,
the fresh grief of like, because you have been like very deeply embedded into

(01:04:26):
this community and this lineage.
And I don't know, I believe my incredibly lineage.
Yes. Very liminal lineage. Yeah.
Mole ish lineage. Um,

(01:04:48):
I remember my very, perhaps insensitive, but inflammatory response was like, and who cares?
Totally. It's true. I feel like the people who really feel the God in the room
don't really care, you know, and then there's like a bunch of people who are,

(01:05:09):
well, I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't assume their experience.
I'm sorry. I'll take that back. back but it's it
is this kind of like framing of it
as intellectual property that can be like owned
and that's logic mind right that's the
jenga tower i mean there is definitely something like i will let's like spring
i will sprinkle my own inflammatory who cares with like there of course it sounded

(01:05:33):
like there was just the devastation of betrayal right yeah having Having been
lied to or pretense that there's some sort of pretense. Totally.
That like got all bamboozled. Right. The people got bamboozled. Yeah.
And there's just so many examples in history of like that culty sort of bamboozlement.

(01:05:56):
It all falls apart at some point. Yeah.
And what's left when, you know, when the tower falls, when the church falls,
when the, you you know, the temple is obliterated. Is there still a place for God? You know, it's.
And I actually honestly felt like at first super crushed, really pissed off, like all the emotions.

(01:06:19):
And then I was like, you know what? That's fucking genius. I feel so liberated
that I was able to be in something that wasn't even quote unquote real potentially.
And yet, come on.
And yet, because it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't really matter. Yeah, yeah.
I had this really hilarious moment where I was in a room with a bunch of new new faces.

(01:06:44):
People had no idea what I did. And so this this practice was a European shamanic bee tradition. Right.
And I was doing as in honeybee. when you're
saying bee right yes honeybee um and
you know and i've had relationship with bees for my whole life
like when i was little kid living in that jungly taiwan like
landing on me talking to them all the things um keep bees i've been keeping

(01:07:08):
bees for gosh almost 20 years now um and a deep deep relationship with them
and so to go over there and have all of this like beautiful story that contextualized
it and practices around it and all these things.
I really feel like I received transmission when I was there.
And the hilarious thing is that even if this thing is fake, I show up to this,

(01:07:33):
it was actually a blessing way for my friend.
And I did this whole piece where we dropped into liminal state and saw what
the essence of this baby coming through was
bringing so as her auntie's in the room we were
reflecting that to the mama and saying we're going to hold your
baby in its essence and like encourage it towards that and
um dropped everybody in at least four people in the room were like i started

(01:07:58):
hearing bees humming i was seeing sweet dripping honey we were in this cave
with all these people like i was just kind of laughed to myself I was like, yeah, that's how I roll.
You know, these are my beat. Like when we're in a posse. Yes, exactly.
Oh, my God. That's so cool. You can't take that away. You can't own that.

(01:08:21):
It's like God can't be owned.
It's just can we set, you know, the conditions for this knowing to arrive?
Yeah. I feel like you're also just painting such a picture of like,
well, I'm receiving it as another kind of like example or validation of like

(01:08:43):
so much of the work that I do in creative work with other people,
whether it's one-on-one or in a workshop group setting is about like permission to.
Permission to construct the spontaneous ritual and to believe in its power.

(01:09:08):
Permission to trust that the like weirdo, funny, spontaneous idea and impulse
you had is like deeply needed.
And it's a very important like tool that came through only you,
nobody else in the room, or even if it's multiple people.
But it's like you were the vessel that that weird idea just like spontaneously

(01:09:28):
arose in And we're, LOL, air quotes, making it up as we go.
But that is just precisely what needed to happen.
And even though there isn't a lineage and there isn't context to like,
and there isn't poems and scrolls that describe this practice that we're doing right now.

(01:09:52):
Now but the fact that you had the impulse drop in
you heard it and you believed it enough to say
it out loud and that we're now gonna like work with
that material like that is the most sacred fucking shit
yeah like how is that
not real how is god not talking to us how is that not us
just like opening totally to take

(01:10:13):
god out of the vip room it's like right hey
it's like it doesn't have to be like sanctified
and that's like the other piece of coming
back into this like animus worldview where things are
just there they're woven in the thread of
how culture is and how society is

(01:10:35):
laid out and you can't just like keep that in the
temple you have to like walk that breathe that with every
breath and yeah and just be
that opening to that dream that's just constantly knocking right
yeah i meet
with um this group of witches uh once
a week and we will sometimes meet like at a coffee shop and

(01:10:56):
we have this really funny ritual where
you just open your bag and whatever shit you have
in your bag we like build the temporary altar.
In the middle of the coffee shop table to be
like this now is a sanctified space this
is like setting the moment moment the intention and
you'll be like a crusty little like wad of

(01:11:19):
a gum wrapper and it's like a maxi pad
and some mints the squish tampon
no one in this group uses a tampon but
you know i was gonna say no no um yeah it's
like just whatever the chapstick like
erected the three chapsticks in a like sentinel uh-huh the triple goddess of

(01:11:43):
lip lusciousness it is shea butter trident of cosmic knowledge through the ages
uh so yeah and it's just like that and that is.
That is our, okay, so the other morning, Ryan, my husband, he woke up and was
like, I had this crazy dream.

(01:12:04):
And it was all about like, this, this saying how God has made us in his image.
And it's, it's because he was like, it's because we're meant to like,
be in that creative state. Like, that's what that means.
It's like, we are constantly like, in, like making the world, right? Right.

(01:12:25):
And and all of the different facets of of God and how like the emanations of God,
like how we're I added this part where it's like we're on this like vertical
axis of the as above and so below.
And because of that, there's this like magnetizing open of this porosity of

(01:12:46):
being in the world where almost every other being on this planet.
And like, are we the only ones who walk upright, right?
Like consistently, right?
So it's this like verticality of being that is allowing for the porosity.
And that's like, that is the point of being a human is to like take on all of

(01:13:09):
these different forms and find our,
I like how my dog just came and sat to listen to this part, to feel what it
is to be a tree, to feel what it is to be the river and to feel what it is to
be the triple goddess of the shea butter chapstick on the,
whatever the world making that we do constantly,
through that, like imaginable through that, like similarity of, you know, in that way.

(01:13:35):
It makes me think of how you just said a moment ago of like,
take God out of the VIP room, like take me an artist out of whatever room that's been put in.
Like some people have being an artist in a vip room some
people have being an artist like in the weird harry potter under the covered
stairs those weirdos you know but like wherever you put this idea of capital

(01:13:59):
a artist like yeah give it amongst the people like spread it out in the streets because
we all are decolonialize it you
fragment it yeah yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah yeah back to like the commons the commons of spirit you know where
it's just like this right like that was our our our white ancestors kind of

(01:14:24):
way of being with the land before
everything got like divided and sold in this way of no widowed woman,
you can't actually grow your vegetables here. This belongs to this person.
Coming back to spirit, thinking about spirit and our life,

(01:14:45):
connection to creativity in that as like the way that we think of our connection
to the land where we've we've done this thing where we put up these false borders
sorry my dog is now trying to type letters on the computer no.
Um yeah we try to put up all these like false borders and it feels like that

(01:15:07):
is part of like Like the hierarchy and like that way of like controlling,
you know, just how wealth has been distributed, how power has been distributed.
And to like, you know, decolonialize all the ways that we think about spirit
and artistry and all those things is like part of this death of the Jenga tower

(01:15:28):
that you speak of, right?
Odd. Incredible. incredible i
like your puppy dog being like
i'm gonna nose out i have i have a secret message to
deliver let me nose it out on the keyboard totally come
on animist worldview puppy dog got something to say that's right you do have

(01:15:52):
something to say oh she's saying rub my belly um okay so now that everybody
is completely freaking obsessed with you and wants to come
out to the desert to work with you immediately by self-included.
How do they do that? Will you tell us a little bit about your upcoming extremely beautiful workshops?

(01:16:14):
Yes, I would love to. Thanks for asking. I'm so excited. I can't wait to be
in a room again. It's been a little while. I feel like COVID kind of,
took things into the virtual realm and I'm so excited to just be landed back
into a place where the land has actually been like hello bring people to me
I'm a collaborator hello exactly.

(01:16:38):
Yeah so the first thing I have coming up is in July uh called as above so below
and it works with that very thing of like the porosity of of being and bringing
together the voice of of the cosmos and earth through the body.
I have a collaborator who's an incredible Qigong teacher. Her name is Jay Marola.

(01:17:00):
And then Daje Alo is going to be doing some like contextualizing story making
world, making work through her writing.
And, and I'll be hosting a lot of like deep ceremony and working with the omens of the land and yeah.
And bringing dream into that and the waking
dream with being out in nature and hearing the

(01:17:22):
voice of all of that so re recontextualizing the
animist worldview and actually doing it from a very
embodied place of experience not just this like
intellectual idea of like oh animism you know
it's like what does it actually feel like and here's the
the context in which to actually let that bloom and
blossom and then i'm doing distaff ways which is actually oh that one's starting

(01:17:46):
in june there are two components online and then one component in person in
november and gosh i could go i could say a lot about that one um.
So the distaff is a tool that weavers use to hold the raw fibers before they spin the yarn.

(01:18:08):
And so we're working with the healing threads and the weaving of new realities
and a practice called a distaff healing where you actually invite the healing
threads to move through the body and then out through the hands in this very specific way.
There's lots of elements I could go into there.

(01:18:30):
But it's also working with the archetypes of the spinners and weavers,
which are just, you know, it's, it's, again, a pan cultural archetype of woman
and thread, and the simplicity of that and the depth of that.
Um i like to think of it as um being able to work with like healing the divides
through these like mending it's it's it's probably a lot of a similar um feeling

(01:18:55):
to to grief threads in that way like when you when you work with a needle and
thread there is just something that comes together.
And we'll also be doing a loom weaving
that will then be displayed in an
art show in santa fe and we'll also
yeah so for our week together it's almost like an artist in
residency program an artist uh liminal

(01:19:19):
artist in residency yes where we'll
be doing deep ceremony and letting that inform the
creations that happen through these loom weavings
and then those loom weavings will be displayed and
we'll also be presenting a immersive ritual
where somebody will be i can't
give away all the secrets yet can i um yeah we'll

(01:19:42):
just say mystery for the people yeah we'll just say there'll
be some like oracular arts involved in that so
some seership which i'm super excited about um bridging those worlds of like
spirit and art as a way to kind of bring what spirit has to say out into culture
and and have those shifts be in that way um gorgeous and then And then Smoke

(01:20:04):
and Mirrors is in September.
And that one came in full in a dream to me.
Literally sprang out of bed in the middle of the night, like two in the morning,
grabbed my journal, wrote the whole thing down, woke up in the morning.
And I was like, what was that?
Oh, Smoke and Mirrors, Undefining Perceptual Reality.
Reality but that was the title that was given in dream I had all the practices

(01:20:27):
laid out so it's one of those like spirit of kind of sitting over my shoulder
being like you better do this already
because you know gave you that dream over a year ago so uh it's time,
Wow. Were the practices that you wrote practices that you know already or were
you also like given new practices? Yeah, it was a combination.

(01:20:49):
I was given some new practices. There's some things that I've already been working with.
So it's actually an arc that takes you through the hall of mirrors.
So there's societal reflection and the masks that we wear around that human
to human reflection, reflection with nature, reflection in the clear mirror,

(01:21:09):
the true mirror, the dark mirror.
So the black mirror as an oracular tool then the
dream mirror so that's there's another practice in
there and going into self-reflection so
kind of the inverted disco ball of self in all the ways that we see ourselves
and then back out of that arc so we're working a lot with just like how how

(01:21:33):
we see reality and the nature of that and all of the different vantage points
and how we can synthesize those and find the nexus point and the meeting point
of all of those in relation,
so that's going to be a wild one i mean you had me at inverted disco ball.
Yes oh so pretty so pretty okay did you one other question did you um um,

(01:22:02):
Did you ask the dream world to be shown?
Like what's my next workshop? Dream worlds.
Uh-huh. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Ask that question.
Yeah, that's, I do that for all, all of the work that I do. I ask dream, I ask liminal spaces.
I go outside, ask nature beings, like what wants to be taught?

(01:22:24):
That's, that's the question I ask. Hey, I also forgot.
I don't know how I left this out, But I also have a dreaming platform called
Night House. Right. How did we forget this?
I don't know. It's like a big, gorgeous baby you've just freshly launched into the world. Yeah.
So that space has been requested by people in the online spaces who really want

(01:22:48):
to keep a consistent dream practice and do so in community.
And so we have three calls a month, one of which is hosted by my friend Elena Greenlee,
who's an astrologer and a tarot reader and she
brings the stars in in this like incredible you
know talk about animistic way like they the planets have

(01:23:08):
just been knocking at my door it's crazy
how you know how much the planets
are part of um just the waking dream that
i've been experiencing since working with her um so
she's doing that piece and we're also doing a dream mirror
practice which teaches people how to
reflect the dreams not analyze them so we

(01:23:29):
leave the dream intact in this way that's like
alive and unfurling and then
we also do something called a dream weave where everybody sends in their dreams
and we work with them in a way where they break down to their finest part and
then weave back into this shared like this meta dream that then as kind of prescription
for the people who we're working with or for culture at large.

(01:23:55):
So yeah, so that's been really fun.
And that's, you know, it's like a, it's an online platform, but there's a lot
of like community interaction and yeah, just room to be in deep discussion about
dream and how we work with dream.
I also love in my um like snooping around on that platform that like you just

(01:24:20):
have such a beautiful way of um,
like designing the membership platform that feels like so creative it feels so creative and so um,
playful and it just feels like a really really rich territory that's thank you

(01:24:43):
yeah different than i don't know just come join my patreon you know like not
that you would have i don't know like just friends of morpheus was one of the
ones right of one of the memberships yeah it's fun i I mean,
it's, you know, I love the permission to just be like playful with this stuff
too. I love that about you and your work as well.

(01:25:04):
Just it doesn't all have to be like this sanctified, serious thing. So serious.
All of the human emotions. There's room for all of it. Yeah.
Especially laughter. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I have a deep desire to join Night House.

(01:25:24):
I don't know if we said the name of it. night house yeah yeah do it i'd love
to have you yeah yeah it'd be really fun to have you there for sure mark is
on there of course he is yeah my my cousin my cousin mark amazing so amazing,
um i love you so much i'm so grateful that we did this and we made me too oh

(01:25:46):
my alarm is going off to go pick up my kiddos actually look at this extraordinary
timing yes thank you so much i I love the crap out of you.
And it was so fun to spend this time with you. And yeah, just can't wait to
do more of this kind of thing in the near future. Yeah.

(01:26:07):
Okay, everybody go follow School of Liminal Arts and consume all the beautiful
medicine, the nectar of life that Nico is putting out.
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Music.