Episode 5: A conversation with Jacquie Duncan about workplace adjustments

In this episode, we talk to Jacquie Duncan from the NSW Department of Communities and Justice about the workplace adjustments she has in place.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hi,
I'm Leon Cunningham from the SBS Inclusion Program.
I'm here talking to Jackie Duncan from the new South Wales Department of Communities and Justice about disability,
employment and workplace adjustments.
Jackie,
what sort of work do you do?
I'm a senior program officer and a senior hr advisor in Inclusion and diversity.

(00:24):
And can you tell us a bit about your disability and how it affects you performing your work?
Yes,
I have an autoimmune disease and I've had that since I was 20.
I'm now in my forties and I have a number of comorbidities or functional challenges as a result of that autoimmune disease spreading throughout my body.
It affects my joints,

(00:45):
my ligaments,
my tissues,
but also my organs and it has gone to my eyes.
So I'm legally blind in my left eye and I have significant light sensitivity and other issues,
neurological issues as a result of all the inflammation in my body.
So what sort of workplace adjustments do you need for me?

(01:07):
The number one workplace adjustment is flexibility.
So some of those functional challenges is around fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome and also concentration memory.
So having workplace adjustment that support what I need when I need.
It is really important.
So staggered work times,

(01:28):
making sure that I can stop and start rest my eyes because I have significant photophobia using my eyes,
using the computer,
take significant energy from me as well but can cause significant inflammation.
So pacing,
my eyesight is really important.
So that's stopping and starting using assistive technology,

(01:50):
color contrast in larger font,
bold font,
just to try to be able to give my eyes some relief.
So the staggered start and stop times are really important,
working from home full time,
if I couldn't work from home full time,
I wouldn't be working at all.
And that's just the reality of my condition.

(02:11):
I also have block out the morning period.
So I have no meetings before 10 o'clock because I need time for the morning medication to,
to kick in.
And so that's something that I also do and having flex work to have time off and longer lunch breaks when I need to for medical appointments.

(02:33):
And I do live regionally.
So because I've got complex needs,
a lot of my medical appointments are in Sydney.
So having that flexibility to come to work in Sydney when I need to around my medical appointments has been really life changing for me as well.
So how did you first go about getting your workplace adjustments?

(02:54):
I really didn't have any workplace adjustments until about eight years ago.
I had a medical condition,
a chronic illness that was degenerative that I just dealt with.
It was my lot in life about eight years ago,
it deteriorated quite significantly in my eyes and I wasn't able to see and using the computer was really,

(03:15):
really difficult and it impacted me neurologically as well.
So,
you know,
having a lot,
a brain fog,
um,
couldn't get my words out.
I felt like I had to start all over again if that makes sense.
Um,
to build who I was before I got,
I had that deterioration.
I then had a significant amount of time off.

(03:35):
So I was 36 and I had four months off and I thought this was it.
Um,
I was never going to go to work again.
Uh,
I was a main breadwinner in my family.
Um,
so it's a really scary time anyway,
I,
I tried to go back after having four months off.
I did a return to work.
Um,
and I came back one day a week and then 12 days a week,

(03:57):
making sure there was a break in between,
then three days a week and I was lucky enough to be able to do more back of office work.
Um,
and I wasn't in front line service delivery at the time and I was able to build the work that I needed to get done.
The problem was I was,

(04:17):
you know,
a manager,
a 910,
I knew what I was eligible for.
I knew the policies around um what I could ask for and I found myself pushing against um some of the assumptions of others,
the assumptions of my,
many at the time about the work I could do and the work I couldn't do and decisions were made about me without me.

(04:41):
And that was really,
really challenging for me.
I'd been completely autonomous in my own work for such a long time.
I was in a period where I felt my health was,
I couldn't control what was happening with my health.
And so that,
that was just another decision that was taken out of my hands.
I struggled quite a lot trying to fight against those assumptions around the work that I could do and I couldn't.

(05:07):
And it just slowly sort of became more accepting others around me within my team and my manager,
it took eight months for me to finally get my workplace adjustments sorted.
At that time,
it wasn't just access to flexible work.
I accessed job access,

(05:27):
which is through the federal government,
a national hub for workplace adjustments.
And they linked me with an expert that supported me in getting some assistive technology.
So I used Zoom text and it came with training as well,
but also the lighting and magnifiers and a whole range of other equipment and training that I was able to access.

(05:50):
And it was really life changing for me.
I was able,
I felt like some of those challenges that I was having at the time I was able to overcome them and I was able to change the way I needed to work.
And something I say quite a lot and that's really evident to me is just because I can't do it the same way as everyone else doesn't mean I can't do it.

(06:12):
It just means I have to do it differently.
So you went through quite a process in quite a long time before you got the workplace adjustments that you were needed.
What would be your advice to one yourself in that situation now?
And maybe second,
what would be your advice to a manager of a person who has a disability?
My advice would be to myself would be to hang in there.

(06:37):
That was the incident eight years ago,
was not the only incident where I thought this was it.
This is the end of my working life.
It's happened three times since that and it is a degenerative disease and there will come a point in time when that happens.
But I now know that I can overcome that and that I can work differently and be ok to work differently.

(07:02):
What I'm sort of concerned about is if I move to another area or another division or another team with a different manager who isn't as accepting of the way I need to do things.
And that's always in the back of your mind.
And a lot of people with disability.
That's the reason why we get pigeon holed in positions because we are fearful of moving on.

(07:24):
We are fearful of having to fight for those workplace adjustments.
Again,
what I'm really happy about is that department of Communities and justice have a workplace adjustment passport so that passport goes with you no matter where you go.
Um,
which really does provide some confidence for me to know if I go somewhere else within the organization that my workplace adjustments will remain.

(07:47):
What they are currently.
The thing I would tell managers is you just need to have a conversation with an employee.
You don't know whether an employee has a disability.
Disability sharing is very personal and identifying as having a disability is also very personal.
So there's people out there who might fall under that category of disability but don't identify,

(08:11):
they just feel it's a medical condition or they are lot in life and I'm in that boat too.
I was the face of disability in DCJ for a number of years,
but I still had a problem with that word.
It wasn't a disability,
it was just a medical condition that I had to manage.
So there's people in your teens already that technically have disability that you don't know about.

(08:34):
And so there is a fear in a lot of organizations in the New South Wales public sector of disclosure and what that means when you tell a manager that you have a disability or you need to do something differently.
And I think for managers,
you need to understand that there are people there already.
So you are having a conversation with every single person to actually say,

(08:57):
what are your challenges?
How are you doing your work?
Are you experiencing any challenges in doing the work that you're doing currently and starting to ask the questions and not align in it to disability specifically.
And then you might capture people who might have a temporary disability or a situational disability.

(09:18):
And at the same time,
you know,
asking people if there was an emergency,
can you exit the building safely and developing those personal emergency evacuation plans?
I think it is a second part of that.
So managers need to be open if someone says hang on a minute,
I actually am having some challenges.
Managers need to be aware of the policy and they don't have to be technical experts,

(09:41):
but they need to have some idea about where to go to or where to refer the employee.
What type of workplace adjustments might help that employee,
there's different suggestions in different organizations,
but also within the public service commission as well.
And I think it's just important to listen and be adaptive and understand that workplace adjustments for a lot of people is trial and error and changes consistently.

(10:10):
It's just not ok,
you've had access to that workplace adjustment.
That's the way it's going to be for the next five years,
it's not going to be,
that's not reality.
Reality is that will change constantly based on the person's needs.
And something else that comes up quite a lot is the equity within teams.
So a lot of managers say to me or I've heard a lot of managers say as well that I treat everyone the same.

(10:35):
And that's how I treat everyone fairly.
And we now understand that treating everyone the same is actually not treating people equitably.
You need to treat them individually.
And I think it's really,
really difficult for managers to wrap that around their heads.
And not only that to implement that particularly in front line service delivery where you have in a human services environment where you have customers and clients and communities that need assistance and need to be seen to and addressed in really volatile work environments and high volume work environments when they actually have to do something differently for one,

(11:14):
they are thinking,
ok,
well,
what about everyone else?
How is that going to work across the team?
And there's no right answer,
but giving everyone the option to work the way that they need to work.
It actually builds culture within the team and you actually find that the team will become more cohesive and supportive of each other.

(11:34):
That's my definite advice to managers is just listen to people treat them with empathy.
If you don't know,
find out from the experts who is your hr business partners,
your work injury management,
people,
your dens,
your disability,
employee networks and your inclusion and diversity teams in hr they're the experts.

(11:56):
If you don't know,
ask and ask the employee nine times out of 10,
the employee will tell you what they need.
But also understand that if it's an acquired disability that they may not know what they need and that there will be trial and error and not a quick fix.
So you mentioned that some people might be fearful of disclosing that they have a disability.

(12:20):
Do you think that fear is well founded in today's public sector?
Yes.
So we know that sharing disability,
we haven't always in the new South Wales public sector.
I've been a public servant now for over 20 years and people who have been around for a long time know we didn't always manage people with disability or people with chronic medical conditions very well in the past.

(12:46):
And public servants have long memories and they will not disclose unless they see that there is a manager in and supportive of them.
And we know that when we have a supportive manager,
more and more staff will disclose that they have a disability or they have a medical condition or a chronic mental health condition because they feel supported.

(13:09):
I think it's about feeling safe because once you let that cat out of the bag,
it's gone and there's no taking it back.
You talked about managers doing things exactly the same for all people not being equitable.
How does that play out in recruitment?
Yes.
So,
um in recruitment,
uh people with disability can request a workplace adjustment through the process.

(13:33):
Um What that might look like?
It could be um access to the questions beforehand,
um or a couple of days beforehand instead of 10 minutes before and something that comes up quite often from hiring managers is ok.
Well,
I'll give everyone the questions two days before.
If I'm going to give that person with disability those questions as well,

(13:54):
I need to be fair to everyone.
Well,
actually giving the employee with disability or sorry,
the candidate with disability,
the questions two days before and everyone else,
the questions 10 minutes before as you would normally do actually puts that person with disability on equal footing with the people without disability.

(14:15):
And that's really what a workplace adjustment is.
It's not and through a recruitment process,
it's not ok.
I'm going to give everyone the questions to two days before it could be adjusting how they participate in the interview.
And so I think it's really important for hiring managers to understand.
Yes,
recruitment adjustments are so important but also understanding the systemic barriers and challenges through the education system and the employment that people with disability have faced.

(14:45):
So people with disability can't be compared to people without disability because of those systemic challenges and barriers that they faced through education and employment.
I've been speaking to Jackie Duncan from the Department of Communities and Justice about disability,
employment and workplace adjustments.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
So,

(15:05):
we've heard from Jackie Duncan about her experiences with workplace adjustments.
But if you feel that you're not getting the adjustments that you need,
what are your options?
I have Sally Jews from anti discrimination,
New South Wales here to discuss what some of your options are.
So,
I'm a conciliation officer at anti discrimination,
New South Wales.
So I investigate complaints of discrimination and help parties try and resolve complaints.

(15:27):
So we don't take sides,
but we sit down with both parties often together and help them discuss the complaint and resolve it.
So if you've requested an adjustment in the workplace because you have a disability and your employer is not responsive to that request,
it may be that you have a complaint of disability discrimination under the Anti Discrimination Act.

(15:49):
If you want to talk to someone about that,
you can call our inquiries line on 1,806,702.
And the next step after advice,
if someone does want to make a complaint then on our website which is anti discrimination.nsw.gov dot au,
you have the ability to lodge a complaint with us.

(16:10):
I'd like to thank Jackie and Sally for their time on the podcast today.