Harness the Benefits of Process Writing to Unlock Creativity

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The process of writing a book can take many forms.
Today,
I'm talking with Boo Trundle,
who is the author of the Daughter Ship,
which is a very sort of,
I would say avant garde or nontraditional way of writing a book.
It has multiple unreliable narrators.
It has a very psychological element in that we have a main character and her sort of child personalities.

(00:24):
And those are the,
the characters telling the story.
Uh the way that she wrote,
it was very process oriented in that it didn't follow a three act structure,
hero's journey,
no chronology.
You know,
she has different techniques for how this book came about and how it formed.
And that's what we're talking about today on the writer Spark podcast.

(00:46):
So join us for a fascinating conversation about process books.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark Podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.

(01:08):
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.

(01:35):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina Town through Writers Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner,
as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,

(01:58):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Writer Spark podcast.
Uh Welcome to the Ryder Spark Podcast.
I am here with Boo Trundle,
author of the daughters,
which we're gonna talk about today.
Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yes,

(02:19):
I'm happy to have you here as well.
So I'd like to start by getting author origin story.
So let's jump into that and uh talk about where you got your start,
what led you to writing and particularly this fiction book,
which has so many fascinating elements that I can't wait to talk about.
Well,
my origin story is long at this point because I've been around for a while um and I was always a creative person,

(02:46):
always making things.
I still am a multidisciplinary artist.
So I don't just write,
I also make visual art and I play music and I do performance,
you know,
stand up comedy and storytelling.
So I've always just been a person who needs to create in order to survive.
Um It's really shaped my life.
It's also shaped my understanding of how to know myself.

(03:08):
So,
you know,
my,
my being and my creative life are very much integrated there.
It's the same thing.
Um So I just think I'm,
I'm made for it better,
for better or for worse.
There's definitely been times in my life where I wish I were more inclined to have a 9 to 5 job and pursue something a little more lucrative and also just easier,

(03:31):
easier to succeed at and get validation.
But that just hasn't been my path.
So my origin story goes all the way back to as long as I can remember.
But as far as writing goes,
I've been trying to get a novel published my whole adult life.
You know,
I graduated from college in 1990 I moved to New York City.
I had a manuscript,
I got an agent,
I tried to get the book published,

(03:53):
didn't happen,
you know,
so four novels later,
I finally got a book published.
And in the meantime,
you know,
I also got creative on the other side and had two kids and had that whole family lifestyle to,
to be,
which was very fulfilling and gave me a sense of purpose and satisfaction that sometimes is lacking in the,

(04:13):
in the writing life.
So all in all,
you know,
it's been very full and I'm really happy at age 56 to have my first novel published.
Yeah.
Well,
congratulations that it is not easy these days,
especially going the traditional publishing route.
So that is quite a feat.
And congratulations.
Thank you.
So we are on youtube,
but also the podcast,

(04:34):
if you're on youtube,
you can see the painting behind you is that you're painting your artwork.
That is,
yes,
that's one of my paintings and it's part of my new project.
My new book is called The Emotional Future and it's a big part of it is the body and the way we process life through feelings and also how those feelings affect our actual physical body.

(04:54):
So that's actually a neuron.
So,
you know,
when I'm writing,
I do a lot of drawing and painting that is feeding into and also growing out of the writing.
So that's part of my new project.
That is so interesting.
I just finished writing the novel that I was working on for several months and there is a physical empath in it.
And so I had to learn a lot about how she kind of senses and tastes emotions because that's how it comes out in her.

(05:20):
And it sounds like I would really learn a lot from your book.
That could,
uh,
sounds like I would learn a lot from your book because that's,
that's,
I've never even heard of that.
She's a physical empath so she tastes fear or sees sadness.
That kind of.
Yes.
Exactly.
So,

(05:40):
I focus more on the taste so that she does sort of sense things but it's almost,
you know,
tasting the roundness of something.
So there's flavors as well,
but almost the,
the shapes and the,
it's like 1/7 sense,
you know,
this indescribable,
it was very hard to describe actually um experience of,
of tasting or feeling those emotions,

(06:03):
what other people are experiencing through the mouth.
So,
um it was,
it was interesting to write and interesting to develop her as a character.
Sounds great.
Sounds really interesting.
And I'm sure you found this too.
Uh Once I started trying to pin or track emotions in the body or just anything in the body,
the body is so complex and there's so many systems at play every second of every experience that when you're writing about something,

(06:32):
you have to really just zero in on one or two things.
There's just no way that it would be impossible to track what's going on all over your body,
even just eating,
eating a chocolate chip cookie,
like all the different systems that go that jump into action when the smallest sense is activated.
It's insane.
So I've had to just kind of narrow it down,

(06:53):
even leading up to eating that chocolate chip cookie,
that anticipation and smell the scent of it baking and then that melty gooeyness so much.
It's tedious.
Yes,
it's tedious.
So,
yeah,
that sounds really interesting.
Yeah.
Well,
yeah,
your next one does too.
Now,
are you contracted for that?
Uh,

(07:13):
no,
I don't.
I had a one book deal.
So.
Well,
fingers crossed.
I'm actually grateful that I'm not contracted.
I think,
I think the two book deal or two plus can be,
I've seen people really suffer in that.
It's like a lot of pressure and there's a timeline and my creative process as you can see if there's so I let my book almost write itself through me.

(07:37):
And I just,
um,
it's also,
I mean,
you've read the daughter.
It's a very kind of one of a kind,
even my next book will probably be nothing like the daughter.
But hopefully it'll be another one of a kind experience where the mechanism that draws the reader through the pages is not necessarily a traditional plot arc,
but something that's more integral to the process.

(07:58):
You know,
we were talking about that process novel.
And so I can't really rush it and I don't know,
I can't really predict what's going to come out at the other.
And so it would be stressful if I had somebody waiting for something in particular because I really don't know what it's going to be.
And when you have a multi book contract,
you have to provide a synopsis of each book.

(08:19):
And the one that I was just telling you about that,
I've been working on Sky Girls.
My agent is um shopping and we started with the proposal and in the end decided that I should just write the whole thing because it'll,
you know,
present itself more strongly.
And the synopsis,
you know,
the 20 page overview that I wrote changed so significantly because I am a process writer in so many ways.
Also with so many aha moments along the way that the plot,

(08:43):
well,
essentially it stayed the same,
there were some significant changes that happened along the way.
So yeah,
I'm with you that the book in,
in so many ways,
um you know,
develops as you write,
right?
And,
and actually I just met with my editor this morning.
I just had breakfast with her,
the one who bought the Pantheon um editor who bought the daughter and she's amazing and wonderful.

(09:08):
I just love her and she's been so behind the book and got it still gets it 100%.
And we were talking about this next novel and for me,
and like I said in the intro,
when we were talking about my origin story as a writer,
like what's happening as a being for me in my life,
like who I am,

(09:28):
what I'm experiencing.
My soul journey is 100% integrated in the writing process and the book that's coming out of me.
And if I were writing in a state of any kind of fear or stress about like a deadline or how is it going to be received or is this book going to sell,
you know,
it would completely impact the writing process.

(09:49):
And so I really need to protect myself from that.
So I don't think I'm a candidate for a deadline in terms of fiction.
I barely can do deadlines on small things and a novel can take 578 years.
Well,
especially that first novel,
when you have no pressure,
the only pressure is yourself.
And then,
yeah,
you have the expectation of turning in that second novel on a deadline and suddenly the entire process changes.

(10:12):
Well,
yeah.
So I feel lucky.
I feel like my space is,
I have a lot of space around me to draw neurons.
And,
you know,
I do a lot of play,
I play a lot and that's how I wrote the Daughter Ship and that's why I'm writing.
My new book is called The Emotional Future.
And that's,
and I don't even know if writing is the right word anymore.
I'm making it,
making it somehow you are the conduit.

(10:35):
I mean,
I wouldn't go so far as to say,
I'm channeling it,
speaking of,
of empaths and you know,
that sort of whole realm,
I wouldn't say I'm channeling it.
But I think a certain amount of channeling goes into anything creative because you're turning off your analytical brain and you're letting things flow and letting them flow through you.
And on some level,
there are energies or vibes or even just ideas floating around and you,

(10:59):
you have to open yourself up to let them come in.
So I guess we're all channeling when we're writing.
I mean,
I feel that that happens all the time and you know,
it happens in different ways,
whether it's something that comes to me through my subconscious in the middle of the night and I wake up with,
you know,
the answer to a problem or a direction that I hadn't planned to go or,
you know,
something like that or if it's researching and one little word will,

(11:22):
you know,
set off some fireworks in my brain and I get to go in a new direction with that.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
I think it's such an interesting process very different than I think people who write as a business.
I have friends who just crank out the books and writing is truly a business for them and I can't write that way.

(11:45):
You know,
it's,
it's very plot driven,
it's very sort of formulaic and it's fine.
There are many,
many readers who love that.
There are many writers who write that way.
That's just not my particular process.
I tried it and it just didn't work.
So I think part of uh succeeding,
but also just continuing to enjoy the writing life is to do it the way that works for you and figuring that out.

(12:09):
But wait a minute.
But haven't you written 30 novels?
Didn't I see that on your,
um,
I was looking at your,
you've written a lot of novels?
Right.
I mean,
how many novels have written?
So,
there's some part of you that's not,
that's able to keep it,
keep it rolling.
Right.
That's true.
I mean,
I wouldn't say my process is the same as yours.
But also I've evolved over the years.

(12:29):
So I started with sort of that book of my heart,
but it was still genre fiction.
You know,
it was not sort of as avant garde as what,
as the daughter and what you're writing now.
And then from there I went into Cozy mysteries,
which definitely are formulaic.
Well,
what's,
um,
what's the difference between a mystery and a Cozy mystery?
A cozy mystery sort of like murder she wrote.

(12:50):
Like,
there's a sort of a warmth.
Exactly.
Aha Christie.
You know,
of course,
how writing has evolved but,
you know,
the murder takes place off the page,
you stumble upon the body,
there's no blood guts gore sex,
swearing small town and just sort of means like vanilla or G rated like a G.

(13:11):
And so in her first there,
I've written a couple of more suspense ones that were based on these legends that I loved.
And then the one that I just finished Sky Girls and my previous series,
the book Magic series are much more unique and definitely outside of genre fiction.
And in fact Midwest book reviews said it was a,

(13:32):
I forget how they phrased it.
Exactly.
But something like a,
a delightfully unique concept,
you know,
and plot for the book Magic.
So I was like,
oh,
yay,
I'm doing with that genre.
Is,
is it a genre or it's,
um I would say it's just fiction with mystery and magical realism,
magical elements.

(13:52):
So,
yeah,
there are that particular one definitely has mysteries and that kind of guides each book.
But there's a very big overarching plot for the entire series.
And then my new one is women's fiction with some magical mystery elements,
but not,
not let's solve a murder kind of thing.
So,
moving away from that.
So I feel like I'm,

(14:14):
yeah,
I feel like I'm following um my,
my heart,
you know,
that writing journey,
I'm not writing the same thing that I wrote 15 years ago at all and I wasn't happy writing that anymore.
And so I've gone with my evolution and I'm trying to pursue writing what is,

(14:35):
what makes me happy,
you know,
and this book came so quickly because I was so excited.
I could not wait to get back to it every morning and see what was going to happen.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
I actually like over the weekend last weekend I,
I got,
I fell into,
you know,
a marketing trap which does happen.
Like,
it's like,
every now and then I buy something stupid on the internet.

(14:57):
Probably,
like,
once every three or four years I fall for something,
you know,
and I buy,
it's not too bad once some piece of junk that is not at all what I thought it was going to be,
it's always like 100 and $50 too.
Like,
that's my price point where I will,
I will spend more than 100 and 50 on something.
I don't know.
But anyway,
so that it does,
it's kind of like you occasionally use your wallet,
you occasionally get a parking ticket and you occasionally,

(15:18):
um,
get pulled into a scam and I got pulled into a marketing black hole and I end up watching 40 minutes of this video about how to market your books.
Because once you're a writer and you have books out there,
they find you and they always know that you are sad because you haven't sold as many books as you want because I don't care how many books you sell,

(15:40):
you always want to sell more.
So I got pulled into it and by the end of it,
I realized that their main,
um,
the main message was write lots of books.
Like that's how you sell books.
And I just thought,
well,
that's not gonna work for me.
But like,
I hope it will work.
But I can't,
that can't be my marketing model because it takes me a really long time.
There are Facebook groups.

(16:01):
It's like 20 books to 50 K,
you know,
a variety of things.
This is speed writing.
Um,
yeah,
over,
I don't want to say over quality,
but it's a different kind of book altogether.
So,
absolutely.
Like you said,
different writer,
different reader.
There's so many different kinds of books and there's so many different kinds for every kind of book.
There's a different kind of author.
And I think that,

(16:21):
you know,
since I know there's authors listening to your podcast and because you're an author and this is something I said to my editor this morning,
I have to be the author that I am and I have to be careful to protect that and not be lured into trying to be something I'm not just because I want,
you know,
I use that phrase compare and despair.
Like once my book came out in June,

(16:43):
um it came out on Pantheon which is a mainstream publisher and it's part of Penguin Random House Big five.
And so I guess they call that traditional publishing.
And I went through the whole marketing experience and trying to get blurbs,
trying to get reviews,
trying to,
you know,
all that like competing with,
you know,
even on the day your book comes out,
my book came in on June 27th.

(17:05):
They always come out on Tuesdays and there was like a whole lot of other books that came out that day and you're fighting for shelf space,
you're fighting for publicity,
you in so many books and you're in this river of books,
even at your house,
there's in a month later,
a whole another set of books comes out from the same publisher.
So,
you know,
and you're on a schedule and it's just,
it was such an eye opening experience and it's very tempting to compare and despair.

(17:29):
And then also to change,
to think,
well,
what if I did this instead?
Or maybe I should have done that and I could do this differently.
No,
like you have to be yourself and then you have to have faith that you'll find your readers and your book.
You know,
and also what's been great for me is I don't have any regrets about the book.
I love the book.
I wouldn't do a thing differently down to the cover or anything.

(17:52):
I mean,
there's nothing I would change.
And that's a good feeling.
I never think remorsefully.
Oh,
if only I done this or that with the book,
I love the book.
And so imagine like if I can imagine any mistakes I've made or anything,
I would do differently now that I've done it,
it feels really good to know I wouldn't change the book.
But in marketing strategy and in some of those workshops or seminars online or whatever you start to realize that,

(18:20):
you know,
strategy starts when you're writing.
Like,
so your marketing strategy kind of starts with what you're writing about.
And so I've had to really have acceptance about what I wrote and who,
who will read it.
And then I have to figure out how to get to them,
you know,
which is part of why I'm talking to you today.
Yeah,
I mean,
that is,
I think the crux of the problem with writing is finding your readers.

(18:44):
And my very first book,
it didn't sell.
Um,
initially because the teams at the publishing houses didn't know how to market it.
It was a little bit pre multicultural fiction.
There's a Latina character.
My husband's first generation Mex in American.
It's very much based on his family.
Um,
it's Chick Lidy yet it's mystery.
So it's this kind of all of these different things that didn't fit neatly into a box,

(19:08):
especially then.
Now it's different.
So now there's plenty of things to comp it to and,
you know,
we could find those readers much more easily,
but,
you know,
your book is very different.
So I think the,
the tough part of my marketing is figuring out who are those readers,
what else are they buying and how can I reach them?
And that,
that is the problem and it's so much work and it takes so much time and that is not generally what any of us writers want to be doing.

(19:36):
We don't want to be marketing,
we want to just be writing our books,
right?
But that's not the way it is anymore.
No has not.
So let's talk about the concept of the process novel.
How do you define that?
Well,
I mean,
the way that this novel came about partly was because I was participating in poetry workshops and mostly just because I was friends with the teacher and um I would just bring my fiction in and play with it in these and use these poetry games.

(20:14):
And so when I,
so that's really how I discovered the concept of the process novel because I'm sort of making it up.
Honestly,
I don't think it's not an established genre.
I'm creating it as we speak.
Um But,
you know,
there is a,
when you're writing poetry,
it's different,
it's,
you know,
I started taking generative workshops.
I think in fiction,
the workshop side had normally been in,

(20:36):
were more feedback,
you would submit your manuscript,
people would read it and then they would give you feedback.
So that,
that's what a workshop was.
But then when I started taking these poetry workshops,
they were more generative.
You weren't giving feedback,
you were writing together.
And so you would play games,
you know,
little games like meditate for five minutes,
look at a photograph,

(20:57):
close your eyes,
try to memorize it,
then come back and then write about what you saw and those kind of games or put your pen to the paper,
do not pick it up no matter what,
for eight minutes just,
you cannot lift your pen from the,
they were really games or we would put on music and everybody would move around with their eyes closed and then write just anything.

(21:19):
Anything kind of goes.
At least I always feel like poets are more fun than fiction writers.
Just like more free.
Like there's less at stake,
you know,
with a poem.
For example,
you might write a poem and it doesn't work out.
Ok,
you can write another poem.
But as a fiction writer,
if you're five chapters into something and it's not working,
you just want to pull your hair out of your head.

(21:40):
And you know,
like if you take a poem,
you stick in the drawer,
pick it up again five years later.
And you know what novel?
It's just,
I'll never give up on this novel even if I die.
So the stakes are just different.
So that's really like doing that.
Just honestly just really freed me.
I just,
I was liberated.
And when I got liberated,
this novel just started to fly and that.

(22:02):
So that now I play all kinds of games.
I make my own games up.
Now.
That's how I,
I used to be a public school teacher and primarily with middle school,
some high school and English language arts obviously.
And that was how you didn't teach math.
That's how we started every day though,
was with journaling and it would be with a prompt or,

(22:25):
you know,
just,
just start writing and don't lift your pencil.
You know,
all of those things that you just said are the tools that we used in the classroom.
Just to get that creative side,
you know,
tapped into before we launched into the rest of the class.
And it's so effective.
And then when I started my first novel,
I would meet with a friend at a coffee shop once a week and we used a prompt book and we just started writing.

(22:48):
And before long,
I had a character and then this character had siblings and then there was a mom and dad and you know,
a business.
And I was thinking,
OK,
I could actually turn this into a book.
What would I do with that?
And I chose mystery,
but that's what I loved to read.
That's what I grew up reading.
So,
but the process initially was very organic,

(23:08):
right?
And,
and so that's why I call it a process novel.
And then also on the other side of it,
um I was going,
so when people ask me,
actually,
who's your ideal reader for this book?
Because we were talking about that earlier,
like who would enjoy this book?
Um I always say it's the person who goes to the bookstore and can't decide if they want to beeline it for the literary fiction or for the self help,

(23:34):
you know,
and that's me in a nutshell.
I've used,
I love books.
I'm a total book fetishist.
I have way too many books.
I love bookstores.
I love libraries always.
But you'll find,
or medical in the medical section,
you'll find me either in the medical section or the psychology,
philosophy or literary fiction.
And so my novel really pulls all those elements in and the psychology part is also part of the process of this book.

(24:00):
I was in therapy.
I was doing new things.
I also went through a divorce when I was writing this book.
Like my life was completely,
I was in this complete 100% transformation.
And I do think that comes through in the novel,
it's fiction,
but it's also on some level based on the process of transformation that I was experiencing.
And I think that really comes out in the pages.

(24:22):
So it's not just the craft process,
it's also the therapeutic sort of inner life process.
And I'm hoping that because all of that was poured so directly into the writing of the book that as a reader,
you experience that process as well.
So I'm hoping that the process pushes out on the other side as a reader that you experience some kind of a different process when you're reading it,

(24:44):
other than just reading a story that there's some kind of alchemical process that happens healing process.
So let's talk about that for our listeners who don't know anything about this book yet.
So the daughter shift and we have the main character who is Catherine.
Um For those of you who are on youtube,
here's the cover again.
Uh And everybody else listening,

(25:05):
there is a link in the show notes,
but you have a character Catherine who has basically multiple sides to her.
I,
I don't know.
Would you say they are most multiple personalities or you're just the,
she's manifested in these different sort of points of view,
different versions of herself.
And that's how you tell the story.
So tell us a little bit about,

(25:25):
first of all,
the structure of the story in that way and then um how you came to,
to tell Katherine's story in this way?
Well,
it's a great segue because I came to it through a therapy process.
I was going through at the time.
So I'll start with that just because I was already talking about it.
Um It's called internal family systems and it's a kind of therapy and I was in therapy.

(25:48):
I've been in therapy on and off forever.
It feels like I'm not a very good therapy person.
I always end up kind of quitting before the miracle.
As I say,
you know,
just getting fed up or mad at my therapist or whatever you're supposed to work through that.
I usually just stop.
Um So I've had a lot of therapists,
but this one that I was working with was into internal family systems,

(26:09):
which has actually become a super popular,
almost trendy kind of therapy at the time that was like 76 years ago,
it was just kind of getting a foothold,
but it's based on inner parenting,
um which is also a big part of a lot of 12 step recovery.
Um But basically,
the concept is,

(26:29):
you know,
you kind of go back and you find your inner child,
you know,
you go into your own psyche,
you find a safe way to do it and you find that child of yours that um still lives inside all of us,
you know,
like we're adults.
But there's,
it's incredible how formative childhood is in our,
the way we love,
the way we learn to trust the way we interact with people,

(26:50):
joy,
sadness,
all of that,
you know,
it's kind of imprinted when we're Children.
And so the concept is that you can kind of go back and almost time travel and repent that child.
Like say as a child,
nobody was there for you on a certain day and you cried and cried yourself to sleep and there was no one there for you.
You can go back and just be there for that child and say,

(27:10):
you know,
if I were there,
this is what I would have said to you.
I would have said it's going to be ok or I would have said,
you know,
you know,
you didn't do anything.
Don't be mad at yourself or,
you know,
whatever it is.
Um So that's the first principle and then internal family systems takes it a little further where they recognize that we have many different parts of ourselves.

(27:31):
Some are little Children,
maybe a three year old.
There might be an 11 year old in there.
There might be an inner teenager who is rebellious and like a hellraiser or an inner teenager who is,
uh,
self harming,
um,
or just lost,
you know,
the way so many teenagers,
you can just kind of get lost in the shuffle.
Um,
and then you might even have managers or who are in their twenties,

(27:55):
you know,
who are,
you know,
like if I'm in my fifties,
like a sort of,
some part of me that is an adult part that continues to grow with me.
That's more of like,
let's get up today and go to work,
you know,
that they call those parts managers.
Um,
and the managers can be kind of harsh,
you know,
they can be a mean manager where it's like,
get the hell out of bed,
you loser,
you know,
a manager can be,
they think they know everything at age 20.

(28:18):
Well,
also it's survival.
It's a way that we survive.
Somebody got to get us out of bed and if we don't get out of bed in the morning,
it's to be pretty hard to make a living.
So it's,
um,
so anyway,
that's how internal family systems works and I was doing that kind of therapy and I found all these parts and so they're literally in the novel,
like the,
some of the parts in the book.

(28:38):
Um,
and I'll just jump to the plot of the book,
which is just try to be as simple about it as possible.
But there's two threads,
well,
there's more than two,
but there's two main threads.
Catherine's in her forties.
She's a,
it's a very sort of typical thread where there's a,
she's in her forties.
Her marriage is faltering.
She has two teenage Children and she's having pretty much a breakdown,

(29:01):
you know,
she's,
she's no longer able,
whatever she was using whatever tools she was using to cope with her inner world and her outer world and balance them and be a mom and live her life falling apart.
She's falling apart.
She's got to do something or she's not going to make it.
Um,
that's one thread and then under it is this other thread where there's these three Children who are,

(29:21):
like I said,
representative of parts of her who are living on a submarine and that plot thread is they're running out of air.
The submarine has been rusting on the bottom of the ocean for many years.
All that they hold all that they carry,
all of their truth has been ignored by Catherine.
And if she doesn't face it,
they're going to die,

(29:42):
you know.
So that's the second thread.
So these two plots are kind of interwoven and to answer your question directly.
Yeah,
she's not a multiple personality.
These are all just parts of her and they're parts of her that she has literally disowned,
which is very common,
like stuff that we don't want to admit happened or stuff that we feel will keep us from having happiness.

(30:04):
We just push it down to the bottom of the ocean literally.
So I mean,
not literally,
but I literal it in the book.
So that's how I hope that.
Does that make sense?
You think the readers it's a lot to explain,
but you kind of have to read the book,
read the book,
go get the book,
the daughter,
a novel.

(30:26):
I can't explain that.
So how did you,
did you know right away that this was going to be your approach with these different sides of Catherine,
these different sort of buried Children within Catherine or did that part evolve too?
So,
you know,
we talked about the process novel that just sort of evolved.

(30:46):
How did it start?
And then did it evolve into this with the multiple points of view with Star?
And you know,
I mean,
these different parts or was that the plan from day one?
Oh my gosh.
Absolutely not.
Let's just be clear.
There's no plan,

(31:07):
there's no plan from day one and there's no day one.
Like I don't even know when this book started.
Um Yes,
it evolved as I went along,
like I said,
I was in therapy and um I was doing a lot of journaling from the point of view of the parts.
Um and writing about experiences from their point of view.

(31:28):
I was doing something called,
it's called left hand writing.
Well,
it's non dominant handwriting.
So this is a game,
one of those games.
But um a lot of times,
one thing that therapists or recovery professionals will use to help you access your inner child is you write with your non dominant hand.
I'm left handed.
So for me,
it's right hand.
I don't know how anybody could do that.

(31:49):
That would be impossible.
Well,
you can't,
you don't write chapters that way.
I mean,
it takes,
it's very hard.
Um So you just write,
you write short things like a letter to yourself or something.
Um I'm actually really good at it because I'm left handed and left handed.
People are always more ambidextrous because we're forced always to do everything with our right hand,

(32:12):
everything the world is designed for right handed people.
So it's not that hard for me,
but it is.
Um so I was doing that.
So I actually was writing a lot with my non dominant hand.
It's a way of accessing a sort of non preverbal or barely verbal part of yourself young self.
Um And then I just thought,
oh,
let me see if I can.
Like,
like I said,
I let me just fold this into the novel.
And so once I started doing that,

(32:33):
there's like you said with,
when you were doing um writing to prompts in a cafe,
if you're playing games and open to anything,
and you just start trying to find a way to fold it into the book,
it really adds to layers and richness.
And so that's,
I mean,
and also I had a,
I,
I mean,
it's such a long answer.
I feel like I would just go on and on and it's hard to answer that question,

(32:54):
but that's one answer.
I could answer it in a completely different way.
Ok.
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I would love to work with you most of these uh chapters or I don't know sections of chapters.
I don't know what you actually call them,
but they're very short.
So did you take one character I always call them characters and,

(33:59):
um,
you know,
were you kind of in that place and you wrote these different parts of that one character or did you jump around within each character because you,
you stagger them,
you know,
and they kind of go back and forth and you get these different perspectives of what's going on.
Um,
but I don't,
you know,
I,
I wonder how difficult that would be to write,
jumping around all the time or telling one thread and then dividing it up later or both.

(34:27):
This is such a fun conversation.
I mean,
it's fun,
but I also feel like I'm going to just confuse people so much.
Um,
well,
I,
one of the games that I play is called Cut Ups.
So,
and Cut Ups is it goes all the way back to the surrealists in like the 19 twenties in Paris.

(34:50):
It's a,
it's a pretty old art game and,
um,
you basic and there's different ways to do it and I won't go into all the different ways to do it.
But the way that I did it is that I would,
you know,
write something pretty traditionally just write it.
I usually write by hand.
So I maybe would write a scene or write a chapter or a part,

(35:10):
you know,
a piece of writing.
I'll just call it a chunk,
chunk of the story.
And then I would go through the pen and I would underline the resonant passages,
the parts of it that felt very alive because sometimes,
you know,
I'll be trying to find my way to something and the writing will be a little dead or not interesting.
So sometimes exposition,

(35:31):
you know,
I'm trying to explain something.
So I'm explaining instead of really capturing.
So I would go through and underline all the parts that I felt were really alive and then I would cut them out with scissors.
I since have gotten a paper cutter.
So now I use a paper cutter,
which is much more efficient than the and stuff.
Um But,
but you know,
and also in the process of doing that,
like if you think about it,

(35:52):
I was really engaging with the text because first I'm reading it,
figure out which parts I like that I'm going through with the pen and I'm underlining it.
So it's a really physical,
very sensual interaction with the words.
I'm not just looking on a computer,
you know,
I'm really interacting with it in a concrete way,
cutting it up.
Then you take the pieces that you've cut up and you glue them down,

(36:13):
but you glue them down on paper with spaces in between them and then you write in between those spaces.
So then that creates this gap where you start writing to the places that are missing or it takes you in a completely new direction,
then you do that and you can do that as many times as you want.
So there's a lot of that's again the process,
a lot of it's almost like you're filtering or processing the story.

(36:37):
And then when,
so what I ended up with sometimes oftentimes would be,
I mean,
if youtube people can see this,
but I'm just like index card size chunks.
So there was a lot of shuffling of the index cards.
So I think if you go,
since we're on youtube,
if you go on youtube,
I know it's on my Instagram,

(36:58):
but sometimes Instagram is kind of hard to scroll through,
but youtube,
it's a little easier to find.
There's I have a video of like my dining room where I put my ping pong.
We had a big dining room.
I put the ping pong table in there,
plus the dining room table plus card tables.
That's how many like the whole room was full of the index cards,
all color coded,
you know,
and then I would shuffle them around,

(37:18):
shuffle them around,
put them in new places,
change it to a different point of view.
So a lot of it was done very literally physically.
Shuffling,
reshuffling,
rewriting,
cutting,
replacing,
rewriting,
shuffling.
And that's how I ended up with those parts.
So,
yeah,
that is quite a yes.
Like I said,
it's more like I'm making the story instead of just writing it.

(37:42):
Um That's interesting.
So,
uh we will have links to the youtube and your dining table scene and all of that in the,
remember to send this to me.
I will for sure.
I love youtube.
You know,
youtube,
I've been really involved in Instagram lately,
but there's a sort of,
um there's a linear quality to youtube that's really helpful.

(38:04):
You can sort of see all the,
you can see it all in one place.
Wow!
Ok.
That process feels really overwhelming to me.
I,
that I don't think I could ever work that way personally.
Although I use scrivener to write,
what do you use?
I use MS Word.
Ok.

(38:24):
Well,
when I switched over to Scribner,
which has been probably 10 years now to me,
that was a very freeing moment because I learned at that moment that I could write out of order.
I didn't have to write chronologically the way Scribner is structured,
you have um basically a panel on the left hand side and you can drag your scenes around,

(38:44):
you create them individually and then at the end,
you can pile it into a word doc uh however you want to.
But,
uh you know,
in,
in word is much more difficult to jump around like that and without a lot of frustration in my experience.
And so that was a very big aha moment for me,
um to get past problems that I faced or to,

(39:07):
you know,
to follow my train of thought.
If my train of thought took me somewhere else in the book,
that wasn't chronological.
Or if I had a scene and I didn't know where it fit,
but I knew I needed to write it and then I could write it and then move it around later.
So similar.
But I am not a write by hand person.
I,
I just do so much better typing on the computer but I know a lot of people who like to write out their first drafts by hand.

(39:32):
So what for you is that part of the physical process of,
of,
you know,
your brain working through your hand as you're writing and that's way more effective for you than working on the computer because of the sort of psychology behind that physical process of writing.
Maybe.
I mean,
I think there's lots of factors.
I,
I mean,
that could be part of it.
I am a visual artist.

(39:53):
I'm a visual person and I enjoy,
I just like,
enjoy the ink going on in the paper and I love notebooks and I like to be able to carry a notebook around and kind of write wherever I am,
you know.
So I know you can carry a laptop around and do the same thing.
But,
you know,
I think,
I mean,
also,
I think it's partly uh maybe generational just how I grew up.
Like,
I didn't even,
um there were no computers when I got to college.

(40:16):
That's when,
you know,
Apple started like,
shipping their first desktop computer when I was in college and we had to go to a computer lab,
like you didn't have them in your,
in your dorm room.
You had to go.
We're the same age pretty much.
And we had,
um,
what do you call them?
The,
were they word processors?
They like the little machines and you could type,

(40:37):
they were terrible,
like dot Matrix and then they would print out,
like,
dot Matrix.
They look so bad.
Yeah,
I have one of those.
I'm a journal wanna be.
I love the idea of journals and I love beautiful journals and pins and all of that.
And I have a lot of them,
but none of them are filled and they're all mish mashed because I love the idea of them.

(40:58):
But following through with them is another thing altogether.
Well,
I mean,
it's interesting because I think that part of,
I mean,
everyone's different and part of my,
um,
I think I'm a scrapbook,
you know,
I'm a scrapbook but I don't have time to literally scrapbook because I'm busy trying to make art and trying to write and to create something that's more for,

(41:20):
um,
a readership.
I feel like a scrapbook is a personal creative project but it is,
it,
you know,
I love gluing things down.
I love cutting things out.
I love glue.
I love scissors.
I love watercolors.
I,
you know,
it's,
it's so,
it's fun,
you know,
and so if I can find some days,
you know,
I'm sure you feel this way too.
Some days I know I have writing to do and I think about it and I just really don't want to do it and sometimes I'll get into it just almost by doing a warm up by painting something or drawing something or even,

(41:49):
you know,
I look through books about the body and maybe look at pictures of neurons and cut them out and glue them down and wait for some kind of inspiration to hit.
And I think,
and I would say that,
like,
you know,
I think that this idea of inspiration is,
has that's really been a big difference in my writing as well because I think I used to force myself to just get the word countdown,

(42:16):
whether I was inspired or not.
And it,
depending on what you're writing,
I'm not sure that's always the right thing to do,
you know,
and I don't know if the world needs that.
I just don't know if the world needs writing that's not inspired.
A lot of,
lot of so I think that,
like,
inspired,
I think,
I don't know,
I'm not a linguist,
but I think inspired means like probably something to do with breath,

(42:39):
like breath of the gods or something.
I'm just guessing.
But in my mind,
like inspiration means breathing space,
allowing something from above,
you know,
to come in and it kind of goes back to what we're talking about channeling.
And I just really want my,
I've always like my bottom line for any piece of writing or art.

(43:00):
Is,
is it necessary,
is it necessary?
Does the world need this?
You know,
like I used to be a singer songwriter and there's,
um,
it's funny,
there's a song,
you know,
Cracker,
the band Cracker.
Um,
well,
they have a song,
well,
a Cracker,
I think I'm from Virginia.
They're based in Richmond originally.
They were called Camper Van Beethoven and they were in California.

(43:23):
This is going back.
They were sort of obscure and they were more famous,
but they have a song called,
I think the lyrics are something like what the world needs another folk singer the way it needs a bullet to the head.
That was sort of the concept.
It was like we do not need another folk singer.
It was kind of a joke.
But again,
but back then I was a folk singer.

(43:44):
So it's kind of like if I'm going to be a folk singer,
we already have Bob Dylan.
Like we already have Joni Mitchell.
I want to do something different.
I want to make the world to need whatever it is I'm making.
I don't want to just be making whatever else is making.
So I guess you might argue,
I've gone too far in that direction,
but I really do wait to feel inspired.
And if,

(44:04):
and when I'm looking through and editing and culling and cutting and shaping the book,
I try to get rid of anything that's not necessary and that's how I do it,
you know,
and I try not to write stuff just because trying to get a word count like that.
Yeah,
I try not to do that.
Well.
And like we talked about earlier,
everybody has their own process and we have to figure out what that process is and what works for us not fit ourselves into somebody else's box because that will never work.

(44:32):
And I don't think that will ever lead to satisfaction in the process itself and,
or in the final product.
Well,
yeah,
if you're not having fun while you're writing it,
I don't think people can have fun when they're reading it,
you know,
or whatever,
maybe not fun.
But if you're not,
um,
but,
you know,
agreed,
I agree with what you just said and like this process obviously is not for everyone.

(44:53):
It might just be for one person.
Me,
like I have no idea.
Um,
but I do think it's worth worthwhile to try stuff,
you know,
like I was just thinking when we were talking about word count,
I was thinking about Neno rmo.
Did you ever do that?
I never,
I never,
I never finished but I did,
I did try it once.

(45:14):
I did it.
I did it,
I tried it and that's all about word count.
And it's also like there's,
I learned,
I mean,
there's some really great things about it and some people kind of come out of Nano RMO with a novel or it changes their life and then that becomes the way they write or whatever.
I did it.
I tried it.
I worked with a partner.
I,
I totally follow the rule when I did it for a month in November.

(45:36):
It was probably,
like,
10 years ago.
I didn't get anything out of it.
I still in my file cabinet.
It was sort of it.
I don't know what that was.
I never used it for anything.
Didn't work for me.
So that was just not for me.
Like I did the word count every day,
but none of it made any sense together.
And at the end it didn't congeal.
Um,
other people come out of it with a finished novel.

(45:57):
So,
different,
different strokes for different folks.
Exactly.
Why not try it?
Why not try it?
That's my thing.
And that's one of the kind of fundamental messages that this podcast gives,
which is find your own way.
There is not one way of doing any of it.
There are many,
many ways,
many approaches and you have to figure out what works for.

(46:19):
You don't try to do it in somebody else's way just because they're successful because that may not work for you at the same time.
You have to do it.
I mean,
you know,
do it,
go ahead and do it.
That's the main thing.
Like,
you know,
like,
even before I found this,
I mean,
part of the way I found this process is because I went back to school.

(46:40):
You know,
my son was in nursery school or first grade.
I had gotten my master's degree in creative writing.
I studied creative writing in college.
I was not new.
I've always been a writer but I was a bit lost.
And so because I had been busy taking care babies,
I've kind of gotten out of the writing practice and I wanted to do something to sort of jump start it.

(47:01):
And I went to the New school in New York City and did continued ed with people who've never written before in their lives,
you know.
But I did,
I was humble about it.
I was just like,
we're all on the same boat and I started over almost,
you know,
and I took classes and I got teachers and I signed up for things with beginners.
And I think it's really important to just keep trying new things,

(47:22):
but also be teachable and re invent yourself.
I mean,
why not?
It was whatever I was doing wasn't working.
I don't know,
whatever happened.
People are like,
well,
how come this novel got published when the other ones didn't,
I mean,
either I grew emotionally or I grew mentally or it's just a fluke.
Who knows.
But,
you know,
I didn't give up.
So that's the main thing.

(47:42):
It's timing too.
So,
how did you find your editor?
And how long did that take you have an agent.
I have an agent.
I've had the same agent forever.
I've had the same agent since I was 27.
Um,
and she's tried with three other novels.
So,
uh,
I found her,
I went to college with her and we're old friends and it's pretty awesome.

(48:04):
I have to say I've got her on speed dial.
We're friends,
we're good friends.
I just like one of my oldest friends at this point.
So that has been amazing.
And when we sold this novel,
it was just for both of us.
You know,
she didn't give up on me and I didn't give up on me and I didn't give up on her.

(48:25):
Although,
you know,
I was just lucky to have her.
I would never give up on her.
But,
you know,
it was just a moment for both of us.
It was,
it was a pretty special night when we went,
my agents been in the business for a really long time and she knew who to send it to.
And that,
that,
you know,
there's two different ways.
Well,
I'm sure there's a million ways to sell a manuscript.
But I think in the beginning with my agent,

(48:48):
we were both really young and she would just kind of blanket submit.
She would send it to 40 people and I would get 40 rejections.
You know.
Um,
this time she just sent it out to handful.
She knew who it was sent it to and she got it to the right person.
So that after so much time in the,
yeah,
she knows it's all about relationships and forming those relationships and then communicating about the book,

(49:10):
getting interest and then sending it to that person or those,
that small group of people.
I think that's a much smarter,
more efficient way to go about it rather than just these blanket submissions.
So.
Well.
Good for you.
That's really great.
It's been,
it was,
yeah,
thank you.
It was,
it feels really good.
And it's also uh there was something you said about timing,

(49:33):
you said,
you know,
that you can have the right timing and then something,
the main thing though is also like,
why are you doing it?
Um I guess it goes back to my origin story.
I just don't think I have a choice like this is what I do.
This is what I do.
Like I've been doing it my whole life and I remember one time I met um a famous artist and I mean,

(49:56):
I've met,
it's not the only famous artist I've ever met,
but this was,
I had never met him and I just had a dinner with him and connected with him and he's very successful in a different field.
And we were talking about um we were playing guitar,
you know,
and we were talking about Towns Van Zant who's just incredible guitar player.
And I play the guitar also and he plays the guitar,

(50:16):
this artist played the guitar,
but he wasn't very good,
you know,
he's an artist but he wasn't that great a guitar.
And so we were just kind of talking about,
like,
my feeling is that there has to be a certain people,
a number of people who play the guitar and try to make it as a rock star and never make it in order for the rock stars to make it like we can't all be rock stars,

(50:39):
but we all have to try because if no one,
I don't know if I can explain this right.
And I don't even know if I explained it to this artist,
but it was,
it was relevant because he was a success.
And so in order for there to be artists who were successful,
there have to be a lot of artists who are not.
And if every artist who's not traditionally successful gave up,

(51:00):
there would be no artists,
you know,
and so it's kind of like you can't give up just because you're not having success.
And in order for me,
for example,
I mean,
I've been out here in the wilderness for 35 years making art and of one kind or another.
And even with this novel,
it's not like this novel made it to the New York Times best seller list.
So I'm still unrecognized on some level or still emerging.

(51:24):
Um But I can't give up.
Yeah,
like,
and I'm not gonna like,
I mean,
I literally cannot,
if it's kind of like my hands are soldered to the rope,
it might be,
it might be dragging me through the wake behind a motor boat.
But I can't let go.
I mean,
I'm just determined because I'm destined to make art,
but I can't worry about the success part.

(51:46):
Um I,
I,
of course,
I want it,
I think you have to want it to keep going.
But I,
I just think it's really important not to let it stop you.
I,
you know,
I'm the same way.
My husband asked,
are you ever going to retire from writing?
And my answer is always no,
because it's in me.
I have to do it.
This is what I do.
This is my part of me,
my creative self.
I have two,
my two oldest kids are musicians and one is a guitar player.

(52:08):
One is a pianist and they both try to go a more traditional safe route with school.
One in biology,
one in advertising and they both stopped,
you know,
and pivoted and one is a playback engineer for a studio and the other is a studio engineer.

(52:30):
Um And he does session work and he,
you know,
he does his own freelance engineering,
mixing and all of that.
And he plays,
he performs.
They,
they couldn't do it,
they couldn't not pursue music and they have figured out how to make a living in a very challenging industry,
you know,
we're so proud of them for that.
But,
but it took perseverance and skill and finesse and,

(52:52):
you know,
that passion and that desire to never ever give up because they had to have this,
this is their driving force.
And that's how I think writing it.
It's still a creative outlet.
It's different than music.
But,
but we all are artists just,
it manifests,
right?

(53:13):
So,
um we're going to wrap up here in a couple of minutes.
But I want to ask real quickly.
We talked about unconventional writing techniques and you talked about the cut up process,
which is fascinating.
And prior,
we talked about uh grade school science,
stand up comedy,
Claire Voy.
And so can you kind of briefly walk us through those as techniques to tap into your writing or,

(53:35):
or your process?
Yes,
definitely.
I love the question.
The I'll try to make it brief.
So the grade school science really just involved me wanting to fold in scientific concepts and metaphors into the book and not really being able to grasp science at a college level.

(53:56):
So I would check books out from the library.
Uh I know I say library,
library,
I'm from the South and that's why we say it down there,
a library there,
you know,
there were themes in the book like batteries,
electricity,
submarines,
the way oil is made um or you know,

(54:16):
siphoned out of the earth.
So those concepts I used sixth grade science.
Basically,
lots of pictures would make Xeroxes and fold them into the text and then write from them using a cratic writing exercises,
which just basically means writing from a picture or writing from an image.
And that's how that all became a big part of the book.

(54:37):
So that's,
that's one game.
That's a visual kind of when I was teaching middle school too,
we'd put a picture up there and I'll write to it.
I love it.
I seem to be using a lot of middle school uh language,
arts tricks and why not piggybacking on this though.
Did you,
so you knew you wanted to incorporate science and so you honed in on some idea there and wrote to it or did you write to it or,

(55:01):
you know,
write what you wanted to write and feel like,
oh,
I want to,
this is a perfect place to kind of work in a metaphor and I want it to be science based.
Um Again,
it kind of started randomly,
it's,
it came from the text and from my life,
like,
you know,
when I was a kid,
my dad was like,
we had nicknames for each other that were based on batteries.
And um so,

(55:24):
and there was a kind of a theme of like,
you know,
charging your battery through,
you know,
relational stuff.
So,
and it becomes a part of the book.
And so because like I said,
some of the novel is autobiographical.
So I was working with that.
Um And then I wanted to get deeper into the science of the battery.
And then once I got deeper into the science of the battery,
I realized how much it has to do with electricity.
And um then the submarine,

(55:46):
which is in the book is,
you know,
when a submarine goes underwater,
it's being run on electricity.
But when it's on the surface,
it's running on diesel.
And so then that opened up this whole interest in oil and gas.
And then once I started working with oil,
I was also working with shame.
It was a big theme of the book and I had this aha moment like you said,
an epiphany while I was asleep that like in some ways,

(56:09):
the way that oil is stored at the center of the earth and is also kind of a fossilized remnant of past lives like shells and crabs and all of that.
Um shame could be seen in the same way.
And so I started working with those two things as similar to each other.
And then,
you know,
if you pump out the oil in the same way,
you can access the shame,

(56:30):
it just comes spilling out.
So yeah,
so a lot of lot of cross fertilizing and play,
I would say mostly just being open and play.
Um But at 1/6 grade level,
just do not try to explain oil to me at a higher level.
Um I didn't even know how oil until I did this book,

(56:50):
I didn't know anything about it.
Just thought oil was just there fascinating that it became the perfect way to create this balance between the metaphor and the sort of um child parts of Catherine and,
and childhood shame and trauma,
trauma.
Honestly.

(57:11):
So,
you know,
and then if I can just actually segue from that into the clairvoyance,
I was doing something when I was working on the book called Somatic Experiencing,
which is a form of healing,
a trauma healing technique.
And you meditate and you kind of go into your body and you talk about what's happening in your body,

(57:32):
what you see there and you start kind of,
it's very trippy.
You really almost start hallucinating like uh machines inside of your body or substances inside your body.
And um I found oil inside my body.
And so like,
so it was a literally and clairvoyant healing is if you don't think about it,
it is really powerful and totally fascinating,

(57:54):
but just as an example.
So I started doing so then I got my own certificate in clairvoyant healing after that because I was just so interested in the,
it's,
it's shamanistic really,
it's extremely trippy.
Um But an example would be like if I'm in meditation,
here's just an example,
like if I look into my heart,
for example,
and there's like oil in there,

(58:15):
you know,
there's something in my heart it's like stuck.
Like I have like a stuck feeling and it feels like oil or something cooky and kind of something that it's just,
you know,
and then in clairvoyant healing,
what you could do is you would meditate,
like you would imagine a machine,
some kind of machine,
let's just say an oil rig that could puncture into that place and then drain the oil pump out all that oil and clear it up.

(58:42):
You know,
and,
and I use in the kind of clavo healing that I used,
we used a lot of machines like you could use.
Like let's say you go into your,
your knee is hurting you.
And so you go into your knee and you look in there and then you see like a,
some kind of stuck icicle or rock of some old memory or some old energy that's stuck in your knee.
You can create a jackhammer and then you imagine going in with a jackhammer and breaking that big boulder apart and then it's gone from your knee and then theoretically it would heal the pain in your knee.

(59:14):
So that's Clair and healing.
That's how that plays into the book.
It's a big part of the book honestly.
And wrapping it up with storytelling is stand up comedy.
I just,
I got into the moth which is a storytelling platform.
Yeah.
Well,
in the city,
I live outside New York City,
in the city,
they have all these events where you can go,
it's almost like an open mic and you can just go and you put your name in a hat and you get up and tell your story.

(59:36):
So I just did it for fun and had a lot of fun with it and you have to have like a five minute first person true story,
you know,
nodding.
So,
you know about the moth.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
we have something,
I'm in North Carolina.
We have something in Durham called the Monty.
And they do something very similar.
So,
yeah.
So,
have you ever done it?
We've,
no,
we've attended,

(59:56):
never told stories ourselves but it,
can anybody get up and do it?
Is it sort of an open,
you put your name in a hat and they'll,
they draw attention.
There's like five,
I think five or six people and there's a topic,
you know,
like a general topic that you tell your story around.
Yeah.
So,
yeah.
Well,
I got into doing that in the city and then that led,

(01:00:17):
you know,
it's so much fun.
I'm,
I'm definitely like,
um,
I love a mic,
just give me a mic.
Like,
I like to be on stage.
It's fun for me.
So I started doing that and then as a result I started studying stand up comedy a little bit because I saw that the comedians always did so well at the Moth.
Like,
just if you can make people laugh like you,
you're doing great.
And so I took a few classes and then I started a comedy series and,

(01:00:37):
you know,
so I started doing a little bit of that.
Um,
and as far as that affects the writing,
it's just,
it,
it brought a little bit of memoir into the way that I write.
And I think that,
that definitely affected the novel cuz like I said,
there is a definitely,
there's a lot of true in the novel,
but true is subjective and true is a big theme of the book.
Like what is the truth.

(01:00:57):
But um so this idea of getting up on stage and telling a true story from your life,
it got me thinking about the truth.
So in that sense,
it did have a huge effect on the novel.
And I think also bringing in little comedic moments to lighten up the tension.
You know,
we can't have something that's serious all the way through without dragging us all down.
We need to have that.

(01:01:18):
Definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean,
when I tell people about my novel and what it's about and sort of describe it.
And then I say it's funny,
they're skeptical,
but I do think it's funny.
It is funny and there's a lot of laugh out loud moments even for such a dark book.
So to be able to mix those things is a definite gift and it's just,
it's so important for the balance of the book.

(01:01:40):
So,
yeah,
you can't,
yeah,
people you can't just beat them until they're,
you know,
you got to,
like,
lift them up on the floor in a fetal position.
That last question.
Tell me about your name.
Boo,
because your name is,
is Elizabeth.
Right.
Yes.
So,
um well,

(01:02:01):
let me ask you a question.
Did you grow up in the South or did you,
were you a transplant?
No transplant?
Grew up,
born and raised in California?
10 years in Texas and then we've been here for five years.
Oh,
ok.
So you have random nicknames and that cousin.
So I do know about random Southern nicknames.
Is your mom from California also or is she?

(01:02:22):
Oh,
she's from Texas?
OK.
So we're going to call,
I know that Texas is its own country but it does happen to be in the southern part of the United States.
So we'll call it Southern.
Uh Yeah,
just,
I don't know what is wrong with people in the South,
I mean,
or right,
you could say it's the right with people in the South,
but they name their kid one thing and call him something completely different.

(01:02:44):
And that's the situation with me.
They named me Elizabeth,
but they call me boo and never called me Elizabeth.
Never once called me Elizabeth until I renamed,
I rechristened myself Elizabeth at one point,
but it didn't stick.
So Boo is just a short name for Elizabeth.
And you know,
and it's like some people literally still say to me,
is there something else I can call you?

(01:03:05):
And I just have to look at them and like,
how would you feel if I said that to you?
You know,
like if somebody introduced themselves to Stephanie and I said,
is there something else I can call you?
People don't know what to call me Bill,
but that's my name.
So,
yeah,
my grandfather was born Charles Charles Waldo and he was called Gene his whole life.

(01:03:26):
I don't know why my mom is.
You don't know why was his last name like J or J or no?
No,
nothing.
That's so weird.
There were hoses which is,
you know,
pretty typical,
um,
name and Bubba and then my mom is Marilyn and I don't have any idea why,
but they started calling her Tupi Toopie.

(01:03:48):
So she,
to her cousins and stuff,
she's still tee.
I'm like,
where did that come from?
No idea.
But,
yeah,
but it didn't invade her.
Actual,
I,
like mine took over.
I can't,
you know,
like I said,
I tried being Elizabeth.
I just,
it wasn't me.
I am a boo.
They did that to me.
So my kids have very normal names as a result.
Yeah,

(01:04:08):
she moved out.
I mean,
she,
you know,
grew up in California so that didn't stick.
It's her Texas name.
But anyway,
yeah,
Californians are,
are more reasonable.
Yeah.
Well,
yeah,
speaking of someone from Virginia,
like I love where I'm from.
But I just think the name thing is a little out of hand.
Well,

(01:04:28):
thank you so much for taking your time to be here with me today.
I love the novel.
I loved our conversation.
I think it's um it's so fascinating to talk about storytelling in such a different,
unique way,
not just following that hero's journey or that three act structure,
you know,
but,
but looking at it far more organically or process based,

(01:04:49):
it's just so interesting.
So thank you for sharing that with me.
Yeah.
Well,
thank you for letting me talk about it.
And like I said,
there's a lot of stuff online on my Instagram and on my youtube.
Um if you're interested because I do at some point I started taking,
I mean,
I have an iphone,
right?
So I take photos,
I take videos and at this point with my new project,

(01:05:10):
I almost,
I mean,
I videotape everything.
It's almost become part of the writing process to get the camera going.
So that also is fun,
you know.
So it's really about just,
I mean,
it try to keep writing fun.
Like,
could we try to make it fun?
I know it almost sounds like really.
But yeah,
I think we have to teach ourselves how to play again.

(01:05:30):
Sometimes I've had to do that.
I have a,
I have many friends who are artists.
My mom and my brother are artists and you know,
words are my art but I work hard at trying to bring in watercolors and sketching and things like that because I love it.
Uh But it's not my go to and I often feel like I should be doing something else not painting,

(01:05:51):
you know.
So I have to kill ourselves and allow ourselves,
give ourselves permission to play and to just tap into those childlike,
you know,
moments and because it feeds it feeds that inner creative river and then,
then something else or fresher or more exciting will bubble up.

(01:06:11):
So I try not to think of it as cheating or procrastinating,
but as,
as like almost just feeding into my writing.
Yeah,
I love,
I love that.
That's such a great way to look at it.
We all need to do that.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.

(01:06:33):
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot Writers Spark academy.com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.
Happy writing.

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