March 4, 2024 • 57 mins
Episode 43
We can all use a little MAGIC in our writing lives. In this case, I'm talking about the MAGIC from "Organisational Consultant and workplace mediator Sharon Darmody". In our conversation, we talked about how to apply her MAGIC framework to the writing life.
Books and Other Resources Mentioned in this episode:
* Work Your Magic*
https://www.amazon.com.au/Work-Your-Magic-Business-Community/dp/1647425336
* Sharon Darmody's Website: https://www.sharondarmody.com/
*Visit Melissa Bourbon's Website: http://www.melissabourbon.com
* Visit WriterSpark Academy: http://www.writersparkacademy.com
* WriterSpark Book Cover Design: https://writersparkbookcovers.com/
* Learn about WriterSpark Course: https://writersparkwritingacademy.teachable.com
* Melissa Bourbon's books: https://melissabourbon.com/bookshelf/
✨ What's Your Story: Writing Your Memoir self-paced course:
https://writersparkwritingacademy.teachable
✨ 📝 Get updates on business, creativity, and the craft of writing by following this podcast and subscribing to the WriterSpark newsletter (https://writersparkacademy.com/https://writersparkacademy.com/newsletter-signup/)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Magic in the workplace isn't only for working in an office.
It applies to us entrepreneurs,
uh the people that are running our own businesses and that's what being a writer is.
It's running your own business.
My guest today is Sharon Darmody and she's wrote,
written the book Work Your Magic with a framework to help us succeed,
(00:25):
to help us acknowledge our successes,
to help us reflect.
And it's a fascinating conversation.
It's a fascinating framework that she wrote actually for the business world,
but that we can apply to our lives as writers.
So that's what I'm talking about today.
Stay tuned for my chat with Sharon Darmody about her magic framework.
(00:49):
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
(01:09):
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(01:32):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina town through writers spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner,
as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
(01:59):
Welcome to the Writer Spark Podcast.
My guest today is Sharon Darmody who is the author of Work Your Magic,
which is the subhead is to create a better business community that works for everyone and my understanding.
(02:20):
Well,
first of all,
welcome Sharon to the podcast.
Thanks so much,
Melissa.
Thanks for having me and we can,
we chatted about this a second ago,
but it's 1 p.m. for me,
Eastern Time in the US.
And you are 4 a.m. Australian time right now,
which is amazing.
Thank you for being awake at this hour.
(02:41):
Most welcome.
That's why,
as I said to you before,
this is what happens when you live on the other side of the world.
You've got to get used to some of these.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
you're a better person than me.
I'm not sure I could do that be coherent at four in the morning.
Well,
I'm very glad to have you on the podcast and,
um,
to talk about your philosophy of magic in the workplace,
(03:04):
but applying that to a writer's life.
But before we get there,
I would love to hear a little bit about your origin story,
your background as a consultant and kind of what led you to write this particular book.
Ah,
thank you.
Um,
it's actually,
yeah,
it's,
it's nice to sort of reflect on it,
(03:25):
uh,
because I never really considered myself an author.
I would never have thought I would have written a book.
So,
it's been a bit of a surprise.
I've been working with organizations for over 20 years,
uh,
mainly in the area of,
um,
mental health,
but certainly,
uh,
health and well being,
but certainly mental health.
Um,
and I guess,
(03:46):
easily to help people to stay engaged and thriving at work.
And one of my clients said to me one day,
you know,
you've really helped with all these things.
You've been all these exercises you've been giving me,
she said you should write them all down.
And so I thought,
oh,
that's actually not a bad idea because,
you know,
I do lots of different work and,
(04:07):
you know,
I own a business so I've got new staff member members coming into the business.
So,
initially I wrote it all down thinking it would be maybe something I would use internally at work um with coaching and training,
you know,
other consultants.
Um And then when I put it all together because I sort of ended up,
I kept writing.
It was like,
oh yes.
(04:27):
And I do this and I do this and I do this.
Um I thought,
oh,
this could actually be a real book and that's how work magic came about.
That's so funny that you say that,
that as you were writing,
you were thinking,
oh,
I do this and I do this and I do this the same thing.
I'm a teacher by trade public education.
And then I started teaching creative writing for adults and now I have an online writing academy with courses and it's not until you start writing it down or start crafting lessons that you realize everything that you know,
(05:00):
and what information,
what knowledge you can impart to others.
I had,
I went through that same process.
Oh,
I know this.
I know that I know.
Oh,
I gotta add this because that's something else I know.
And you know,
you,
you,
you just gain all of this knowledge over the years and you don't even really realize what you've gained.
And I think sometimes you take it for granted and so certainly what clients have told me,
(05:24):
um,
like sometimes I think I've got these big fancy tricks but it's the smallest things that make the difference that you forget and they go,
oh,
yeah.
I know you told me these things but it was this,
I did this and it just changed everything for me.
Right.
Because we,
it's just part of our makeup now.
It's what we do.
Right.
And so we don't even think about these things and,
(05:46):
and you kind of just operate under the assumption that,
oh,
they already know how to do that.
Everybody knows how to do that within your given field.
But it's not true because we've learned this over time.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No,
it's interesting.
It is.
Ok.
Well,
let's dive into our topic which is working your magic,
(06:06):
but applying it to a writer's life,
which is often a very solitary life.
A lot of people,
I would venture to say that maybe the majority of writers have other jobs that they do because writing is not the profession that earns you tons of money unless you're in that 1%.
Um But I am super curious to see how your,
(06:27):
um,
your program of magic in the workplace,
which magic standing for meaning authenticity,
ground rules eye and curiosity applies to writers and the lives that we are leading.
Look,
I think,
you know,
you've just sort of raised that with me when we were talking before and I actually,
(06:49):
as I'm reflecting on it,
I think there is lots of crossover because I think with meaning,
I think you've got to be really clear about why you're doing it for exactly the reason that you said most of us have another job.
You know,
I'm doing another job.
I did this in the extra hours of the day that you,
(07:12):
um,
I think unless you're really clear about why you're doing and doing this and passionate about it,
then it could be very hard to put that extra time in and find the space and also feel good about doing it,
you know,
um giving up your Saturdays or your,
you know,
Thursday nights,
things like that to get this done.
(07:33):
Um I guess with authenticity.
Absolutely.
It's about finding your voice and maybe feeling you can speak,
maybe not what everyone wants to hear,
but what,
you know,
you need to say.
Um So,
and I think that's important in workplaces and I think that's important as an author,
you know,
really being clear about what your message is and,
(07:55):
and how,
how do you kind of apply that to somebody who's a fiction writer?
Because with non fiction,
I think it's easier to,
to really hone in and,
and determine what is your message,
what is it that you're writing about that?
You're trying to impart and share knowledge about with others,
but with fiction writing that's a little bit different.
So how would you go about finding that authenticity?
(08:19):
You know,
I think it comes down to the themes that are built into our stories and we all kind of gravitate towards specific things.
I always have strong female relationships in every single book or series that I write.
That's a,
a reoccurring theme.
So how does a writer kind of hone in on that authenticity for themselves?
Well,
I think like most things we approach.
(08:42):
Um even as I say,
I mean,
my experience is workplace uh consultant and,
and,
but I think there is some crossover there that we can sort of think,
oh,
I know,
I want to say this,
but do people want to hear it now?
I think with writing,
you do actually have to consider it,
this hopefully will be commercially successful.
So you need to have that balance as well.
(09:04):
But sometimes I can imagine you thinking I want to go there with this character but you pull back because you go,
oh,
I'm not sure the audience wants to hear it or,
and you play it safe rather than actually going there.
Um And I find,
uh and,
and obviously this is in workplaces and so I'll go back to my where I work.
(09:26):
Um you know,
you've got to be respectful,
you work in large organizations with different people.
But still,
I think there's an opportunity,
I think when everyone can sort of bring their voice,
bring their solutions forward,
we get a better mix in workplaces rather than when people feel they need to sort of put on a mask to come to work and be a certain person or look a certain way.
(09:46):
Right.
And I think that that kind of applies to writers who sometimes write to the trends that are happening right now because I think when you're writing to trends,
you've already sort of missed the boat,
right,
because it's already happening.
And by the time you're done with your book,
and especially if you go traditionally,
(10:09):
you know,
it's such a long,
lengthy process as you probably know to get a book published,
that trend has passed and we're on to something new.
So I think it's finding that thing that you actually love and want to write the book that of your heart rather than trying to say,
well,
that's what's popular.
So I'm going to write that,
which is less authentic.
Absolutely.
(10:30):
I think,
you know,
a good,
another example of the crossover is,
you know,
when you are working at a company and you might think this is what a manager looks like.
So I'm gonna be like this,
I'm gonna be this manager rather than me as a manager.
Um Similarly as an author,
I'm gonna be like this author rather than get I'm gonna be my,
I'm gonna be me as an author.
(10:52):
Right.
Right.
I go through that with my teaching and my coaching is I coach writers and I have classes that I teach and my approach to teaching and coaching I think is,
is different than a lot of other people.
And um my interaction especially as a coach is,
I think much more personable and,
and definitely there as a guide,
but I've had to kind of figure out what is my approach,
(11:15):
what is my authentic way of interacting with my students and with my clients and as I'm a freelance editor as well.
So with those people that I'm editing,
because those are important relationships to build and I want to be authentic in how I am interacting with these folks.
(11:36):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I think,
as I say,
it's a fascinating conversation to have.
I think there's lots of crossover and I think that's where and we'll get to the connection piece,
but that's when we connect better and that's when things work better because we work better as a tribe,
we work better when we are part of something bigger and people,
people want to see you,
(11:56):
you know,
um And when we sort of know when we don't see people,
you know,
when we're getting a version of them,
it doesn't quite feel the same.
Right.
That's so true.
It's obvious we are perceptive and intuitive,
I think just naturally.
And so it's,
it's not hard to tell when you're not getting a real,
the real person when you're getting some sort of mask like you referred to earlier.
(12:20):
Yeah.
And that's no fun.
That doesn't,
that doesn't feel like a productive relationship to have.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yes.
So,
yeah,
I think,
um I think,
yeah,
there's lots of,
lots of crossovers I,
I'll think about this conversation for a long time.
I think we can come back and do part two.
So you mentioned the tribe too.
(12:42):
And that's so important because,
you know,
in the workplace,
in reading your book you have.
Um,
well,
I think this goes to the eye and magic.
So kind of jumping around a little bit here but you talk about,
you know,
you can be in your own little bubble and not really connected with the people around you.
And that's very true for somebody who works more isolated,
(13:05):
like a writer.
You've got to go out and find that tribe,
you've got to connect with other people who are going through living your passion,
doing what you do.
Uh Absolutely.
Again,
uh uh I think there are a lot of crossovers here.
I certainly found that um when I started writing,
I found um because,
you know,
it is,
(13:26):
you know,
my side work and I didn't really know any other writers.
Um Luckily I reconnected even myself,
I reconnected with a school friend who's living in Hong Kong at the moment and she's doing uh while she's in writing a book,
she's writing a course.
Um And so now we have a monthly uh Zoom call which has just meant the world to me.
(13:47):
Um And so I think that as I say,
it can feel a little isolating.
Um And there are unique problems and I think we like to solve problems with other people so we can run ideas by one another.
But I think as an author,
you're spending a lot of time,
you know,
in your office,
by yourself with your own thoughts and to have that community uh is so important also,
(14:08):
you know,
a lot of people now again,
if I cross back over to the workplace,
are working from home now,
post COVID.
And so it might be,
you know,
in the past you were working as an author and you did a couple of hours at night and on the weekends,
but during the week,
you got to go out and be with people,
whereas now you might be working at this desk as well during the week.
(14:29):
Um So I think it's even more important to making,
make sure you're,
you know,
connecting in with people.
That's so true.
I hadn't really thought about that.
But,
you know,
it,
it is challenging,
working from home.
And I have to be really intentional about where I work because I,
sometimes I'm working in the living room,
(14:50):
but that's my home space.
Right.
So I go in the sun room where I come into my office and I tend to be far more productive in my office even though I don't always come here to work.
But having that sort of separation of home and work space when you are working from home,
I feel like is,
is very important.
Is that something that would fit into the g,
(15:12):
the ground rules of your magic program.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I think that's,
um,
essential.
I think there are lots of,
I think,
and when we initially started talking about this was,
was the ground rules that really jumped out at me as crossing over with the writer's life.
But certainly,
you know,
I've got clients who,
(15:33):
well,
one that jumps out is that,
um,
before COVID.
Um,
and,
you know,
a lot of people in Australia are back in the workplace in some capacity.
But,
you know,
when we were,
you know,
in lockdown,
um he used to ride his bike to work and then after,
um COVID,
so what he would do at the end of his work day was he would get on his bike and ride around the neighborhood and sort of ride back in cos,
(15:57):
he said he felt it was that time on the bike that made him disconnecting and he found just kind of,
um,
even if he'd gone for a bike ride in the morning at the end of the day,
if he just turned off his computer and went into the house,
he was still sort of talking about,
uh,
he was still thinking about work and just still not really at home and with his family.
(16:18):
But he found that if he on his bike and he said,
even if he didn't have time for a long ride,
even if he just went a few blocks just that process of getting on the bike.
It was that muscle memory of this is how I disconnect from work and then he,
you know,
rode back in and he was at home and finished work for the day.
I really love that idea.
(16:38):
It,
that has never occurred to me to do something really physical or tangible to,
to force that disconnect because you're not,
especially as a writer,
if you're writing at home,
you're not,
you know,
getting in your car and leaving your workplace and going home,
you're already there.
So,
whatever,
(16:59):
you know,
whenever you stop to actually physically do something to sort of force that transition seems so logical to me,
it seems to make so much sense.
I'm going to try that,
but I won't fight because we live in a hilly place.
But I'll go for a walk.
Yeah.
Go for a walk or a client of mine go,
just goes and has a shower and pictures the day washing away.
(17:21):
I've got another client who hoses the garden,
you know.
So there are lots of things you can do,
but it just is,
as I say AAA rhythm and a ritual that says,
ah,
you know,
work's finished for today.
That's my line in the sand.
And even if you have a day job and you have a routine when you're either getting up early and raining or you're putting in the hours at night after you finished your day job.
(17:47):
You still want to create that transition because it's still different from your home life.
So,
now you have three things that you're trying to separate.
Yeah.
So it's even more important.
II,
I really agree.
Certainly when I was writing,
um,
my daughters go to an art class on a Saturday morning and I really use that as my,
kind of what I almost refer to as my sprint time.
(18:10):
They sort of walked out the door and I really thought I've got two hours now and I,
I just,
you know,
was very disciplined and used ground rules.
They were my ground rules that I sat down and really utilized that time.
So it's about figuring out,
you know,
what those are for you,
right?
And ground rules can also apply to creating your routine.
(18:31):
So not even talking about the transition between,
you know,
your life responsibilities,
but,
you know,
I'm going to write to for an hour every day or I'm going to write 1000 words a day or I'm gonna write 5000 words a week,
whatever that routine is,
setting those ground rules for yourself as a way to,
um,
you know,
to have a target to have a goal.
(18:54):
Hm.
Absolutely.
So,
the ground rules are the routines,
the rhythms,
the rituals that support you.
And I think they've never been more important because life is moving so fast.
There's a lot going on and our brains like control and we're not getting a lot of it but if we have these things where we go,
(19:14):
oh,
I know this.
Oh,
I do this every Saturday morning.
Oh,
that feels good.
So,
you feel like you've got your feet on the ground?
Which,
as I said,
in the,
in the world where we've had a lot of uncertainty,
we're all moving pretty fast.
It feels good to sort of go.
Oh,
I know this.
I,
because I do this regularly.
Um,
and it can be really reassuring for our nervous system if nothing else.
(19:37):
Yeah,
I love that.
And I think it's so important.
I've talked about that before in my podcast,
written blogs about it.
But that routine for me,
it's so important because it's so easy to get off track,
you know,
and suddenly the day is gone and you haven't accomplished what you set out to accomplish because your routine went out the door.
(19:58):
You know,
I had to take the dog to the vet the other morning and there went 2.5 hours of my writing time and it was very discombobulating because my routine was interrupted.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No.
So I can really see.
Um also because there are lots of ways you can procrastinate as a writer.
(20:19):
I,
I know that from experience that when I was really clear about when I had this kind of,
I would call it also a sprint time or my hour of power,
um,
that I would sort of really focus,
uh,
what do you say to people who,
like I did with the vet,
have these responsibilities that creep up,
(20:39):
that really interfere with the ground rules that you've set for yourself.
How do you,
have you stopped that from derailing,
you know,
on a,
on a longer,
on a more permanent basis?
Because once you're off a routine it's so easy to stay off the routine,
harder to get back on.
Mhm Yes.
(20:59):
Look,
I would say to be gentle with yourself because life's gonna happen.
And that's certainly my experience um that,
you know,
you can set all the ground rules and you can think I'm gonna get it done in this way.
But life happens sometimes like your dog having to go to the vet like there's nothing more important than looking after your dog where big dog people at our house.
(21:22):
Um So I just think be gentle with yourself.
Say,
look,
I had to,
our dog is Luna.
I had to go and be with Luna today.
But you know what I'm getting back on track tomorrow.
I think what we can do is we can really berate ourselves like we can be our harsh,
harshest critic.
Um And so I think,
I don't think that helps then because then if we're berating ourselves,
(21:45):
we know from the science that it would be like you coming up to me,
Melissa and going Sharon,
you're not doing a great job.
I would be kind of alarmed by it and my,
it would set my adrenaline going well,
it's no different when I say that to myself.
Um,
and then is that gonna help your writing process if your adrenaline's running and you're feeling a bit discombobulated rather than saying,
(22:06):
look,
I had to do this today.
I'm doing the best I can.
I'm gonna try no negative self talk.
My husband and I always with our kids growing up be at the dinner table,
you know,
and,
and somebody would say something that was negative about themselves or anything else,
you know,
and we're like,
no,
no,
no,
no negative self talk because that,
you know,
we don't want to reinforce that.
So that's been something that's sort of our family mantra and it comes back now my kids are grown and,
(22:31):
and,
you know,
when somebody says something,
somebody will say no,
no,
no,
no negative self talk,
it's really like embedded.
Oh,
it's so important.
Absolutely.
I just couldn't,
um,
you know,
I think we are really tough on ourselves and I guess a lot of the work I do,
I talk to people about,
well,
how can you,
how would you talk to somebody else?
(22:53):
You know,
you wouldn't,
you wouldn't say that to anyone else.
Right.
Right.
And then,
uh,
in terms of just kind of getting back on the horse,
I read atomic habits fairly recently.
And that's one of the kind of prime principles that he talks about the author talks about which is,
don't break the chain.
(23:14):
You know,
if you miss a day of working out,
ok,
you miss a day,
don't beat yourself up,
but get back on.
Don't break the chain.
Like,
don't let more than one day pass when you don't do the thing that you've committed to doing whatever that is.
You know,
if it's cleaning up the dishes at night and making sure everything is put away.
So you wake up to a clean kitchen.
I'm notorious for not putting all the clean dishes away.
(23:36):
You know,
don't break the chain though.
Don't let that happen over and over or even more than once in a row because again,
it's a gray slope.
Right.
Actually,
I really enjoyed it to the habit and it is that too.
So just the next day go,
I'll be at my desk at nine o'clock because that's my ground rule.
(23:58):
Yes.
Yes.
And,
you know,
that's really important,
I think for writers too because it's,
especially if you're fortunate enough to write full time as I am.
Uh,
now,
well,
full time along with all the other self employed things I do.
But it's easy to,
(24:19):
you know,
flitter around the house and do this or that and not end up at the desk or at the computer until 10 o'clock or 1030.
So,
setting that,
that routine for yourself,
not only in this is,
these are my work hours.
This is when I'm going to start.
But also an editorial calendar,
you know,
especially if you're an indie published author,
(24:39):
setting a date when you need to have that book completed by and the publication date,
even though it's a contract with yourself,
not a publisher,
I think that's so important because you're running your own business.
You are a small business owner.
Yes,
absolutely.
(24:59):
Um,
I couldn't agree more having been,
I'm a,
you know,
small business owner in my other life.
Um,
that you do need to really,
um,
you know,
set your own parameters.
Um,
and he said as well,
be gentle with yourself.
Um,
even in terms of what you can achieve,
um,
and make sure that it's realistic as well.
(25:20):
But I think it,
yeah,
absolutely.
You've got to,
you know,
um,
get an idea of what you'll get what you can realistically achieve in a week and sort of map that out.
I used to sort of,
you know,
have a,
a plan for,
at least finishing the thought I was on because my book is full of exercises.
(25:40):
So it'll be like I'll finish that,
you know.
Um,
so I'd have,
you know,
an idea that I'd get three exercises done.
So,
a lot of my book will go through exercises I do with people.
So I would just jot them down and then I would start writing and I would try and at least bring that to completion before I'd,
I'd get up that's a great idea because it's easy to lose the momentum of what you were thinking about.
(26:05):
I do that with scenes.
I have to finish this scene before I stop because I'm gonna lose my train of thought or my momentum of what was happening and what I want it to be.
If I set it aside,
unless I'm having a problem with it.
If I have a problem with it,
I definitely set it aside.
But as a general rule,
I try and complete a scene similarly.
(26:26):
If I,
if I finished an idea,
I would use that as an opportunity to maybe have a break,
go and have a coffee,
you know,
um,
and then come back and look at it with fresh eyes for,
rather than rereading it immediately that I finished it.
That's when I would go.
Oh,
I'll have the break now and I'll come back and give it another read and,
and that I always found that helpful where I'd go.
(26:48):
Oh,
no,
that sentence I should have written it like this.
Whereas I think if I'd reread it straight straight away,
I may not have realized.
Yeah,
I do the same thing and sometimes I have to set it aside for more than just a break.
You know,
if again,
if I'm having an issue,
(27:08):
I need to resolve something,
I'll go on to some other part of the book or I'll set it aside so my subconscious can work,
you know,
so that,
that,
um that need to step away and then come back to it with fresh eyes,
whether it's in an hour or in two days,
you know.
Yes.
No,
it makes complete sense.
I think that,
you know,
so uh so the ground rules have to be flexible too.
(27:32):
Um a bit of flexibility,
as you said,
if you're having difficulty with the scene for you,
um it may not be helpful just to sit and try and push through.
Um It is better to go away,
but then have a plan of when you're returning.
Yes.
Yes,
because you want to make sure that you do plan to return and not just let it sit there indefinitely because you've,
(27:57):
you know,
you've broken the chain or,
you know,
you,
you've forgotten your ground rules and you don't come back to it.
OK.
So we have meaning creating meaning for what you're doing.
Authenticity and ground rules.
And the next part of your magic program is the eye,
which is I me,
it's also about the connection piece,
(28:18):
the eye.
So I'm bringing myself to work and I'm gonna meet other people and we're gonna connect in the book.
Um I talk a lot about the loneliness epidemic that we're going through.
Um And again,
it really connects in because,
you know,
it can be quite solitary being a writer.
Um But we know that uh certainly in Australia,
one in four Australians are experiencing real loneliness at any one time and that's got real impacts in terms of our physical health and well-being as well.
(28:47):
Um And I believe the statistics are even higher in the States.
So,
you know,
if we wanna be productive writer,
we've gotta be,
well,
you know,
we've got to be.
So I think,
you know,
without overlaying and I think we need to really realize we are in this,
in the,
in the middle of this loneliness epidemic that maybe,
you know,
we don't belong to some of the traditional groups that we belong to as,
(29:08):
as we've talked about,
maybe we're working from home.
Sometimes people don't seem to know their neighbors as much as they used to.
So I think we've got to be more intentional about how we connect in with other people because it does impact on our health and well being and,
you know,
we're not going to rot very well if we're on.
Well,
yeah,
I think it's,
it's funny that you say that we don't know our neighbors because we just met some neighbors about a month ago who have lived here for seven years and we've lived here almost for five years and it was our dog,
(29:40):
lovely dogs that brought us together.
They have a brand new rescue that they were walking and we have three dogs that we always walk.
And so that made us stop and have a conversation,
you know,
whereas before we just waved and said,
hey,
you know,
but there's not necessarily an impetus to stop and chat and now,
you know,
we've become friends and we have dog play dates and we've,
(30:02):
you know,
hung out together and,
but it's,
you know,
it's so easy to exist in your world and not connect with the people around you.
You have to be intentional about that.
Absolutely.
You know,
I don't think people spend as much time in their yards as they did often.
We've got garage doors that just go up and we just drive in and we're in our room.
(30:22):
Uh,
so we're not getting out and opening gates like we did.
Um,
and funnily enough,
we met our,
one of our neighbors.
Um,
we've been in this house a few years,
um,
when our dog got out and I brought the dog in so we were able to introduce ourselves again.
It all goes back to the dogs.
That's so funny.
My,
we had neighbors that lived next to us when I was growing up.
(30:43):
And,
um,
I mean,
we know,
knew the kids but my mom and that mom hadn't met for like 15 years.
I mean,
they had,
you know,
crossed paths and said hello,
but they hadn't talked and,
you know,
only to find out they're both artists and they had all of these things in common and they wasted 15 years because they didn't,
(31:04):
you know,
borrow a cup of sugar or come over with some,
for some coffee or something,
you know,
and all of that time.
It's so,
yeah,
I'm all about being really intentional about forming connections when we moved from Texas to North Carolina,
which is where we're at now.
My youngest son was going into 11th grade,
you know,
and I was not about to join PT A and do all of that stuff anymore because I had done all of that.
(31:29):
And so I had to figure out like,
how am I going to meet people?
How am I going to meet other writers?
How am I going to meet other people that I connect with?
And so I,
I used meet up actually and was just very intentional about it.
And then writing organizations,
I've met people through the national or I guess international even writing organizations that we belong to.
(31:51):
Well,
if you're passionate about it,
if it's your m your meaning,
then I think that's when you are going to connect in a real way with people.
So I think it's a real opportunity,
but I do think um coming back to what I saying,
I think we've got to be really mindful of that at the moment that if we want to keep ourselves well,
be it at work,
which is what I talk about or be it for our own work.
(32:12):
If we're working as a writer,
I think we really need to remember.
We need people.
Do you think the pandemic?
Uh Well,
in your book,
you referenced the pandemic as being,
um,
maybe not a catalyst for some of the isolation and some of the need for this sort of magic program to connect with people.
(32:33):
But,
uh it's certainly contributing to how much worse it is now a or how much more important it is for people to get connected,
stay connected,
reconnect.
Yes.
Oh,
absolutely.
I think that,
you know,
um,
probably where I live in Australia,
we were not uh as impacted uh other parts of Australia were so Melbourne had long periods of lockdown,
(32:56):
but I'm in Brisbane and we didn't.
But I think you really do need to um again,
going into the magic model,
be curious uh which is the,
the last pillar about what changes you need to make.
So just because it's worked in the past,
doesn't mean it's gonna work now because,
you know,
for a lot of us,
the world um it,
(33:16):
there's been a lasting impact of the changes.
How does that tie into curiosity?
Um which again is the last part of magic?
Well,
I think that and again,
it,
it can go back to your work as a writer.
You know,
being curious about your routines,
your rhythms,
rituals.
So they may have worked in the past,
but they may not work.
Now,
you may be doing another job as your other work and,
(33:41):
and you need to tweak what you're doing in terms of your um your work schedules and how you and how you approach writing,
um,
from a workplace point of view,
you know,
I think that,
uh,
certainly in Australia and I know in the States as well,
people are considering that work from home balance,
you know.
So do I go into the office three days or two days and,
(34:02):
and for workplaces,
you know,
I encourage them to keep being,
um,
curious.
Um,
and maybe even to set up a pilot,
say,
look,
we're trialing this out,
we're gonna try out this pattern for three months.
And then we're gonna say,
is this working for us?
Are we seeing one another?
Are we spending enough time working from home?
What's the balance that are gonna make us the best we can be?
(34:26):
Um,
so to,
to not to just sort of put something in and go well,
that's the rule and that's how we're gonna do it from now on.
Um So,
so curiosity not complacency,
so we could throw in that other sea there.
So we're not being complacent about what we've created or how we live or how we're doing our jobs.
We are curious to reflect upon it and see what can change what we can make better,
(34:49):
what's not working,
what is working?
I think sometimes we can rush into solutions,
you know,
because again,
as I said before,
we like our brains like control.
Um And so we can rush in to find a solution and go,
we're gonna lock that in rather than staying in the messy middle a little bit and going.
Is this working?
(35:09):
Is this the best way of approaching things?
And I can really,
again,
you know,
it's been a really interesting conversation with you.
Um,
I think it's really interesting in terms of writing.
So,
whilst,
you know,
you may have always had this routine,
maybe that's not working for you and maybe you'll feel that again.
We're very intuitive.
(35:29):
You'll just go,
well,
how I've been writing in the past doesn't work for me.
It might even be where you're writing.
You know,
you might need to go to a library or go somewhere else for all sorts of different reasons.
Maybe if you've got a family member who's working from home,
you actually need to go somewhere else where it's gonna be a little bit quieter or,
you know?
Oh,
my gosh,
(35:50):
that brings up.
That's so funny.
That brings up a,
a pandemic story.
So,
my husband was a high school principal at the time during the pandemic and,
you know,
the school shut down.
So he was working from home.
Well,
the life of a principal is greatly meetings,
part of meetings.
And so he would be,
we have a small house.
(36:10):
So he would be in the same room or in the other room and talking through his meetings and driving me absolutely batty because that is not my way.
I'm not in meetings all the day.
I want quiet because that's how I work best.
I was like,
you need to go back to work,
go back to work,
please.
(36:31):
I think a lot of us found that when we,
when we initially moved into this house,
um,
we shared this office and we realized that didn't work either.
And for the same reason,
you know,
you know,
a lot of us are on these sorts of calls.
Now,
um,
you know,
in your office,
you're not necessarily,
you know,
head down working.
Um,
and so to have two people trying to,
(36:51):
to manage that it didn't work in the same room for sure.
Oh,
my gosh.
Yeah.
It was a real,
it was a real,
uh,
really interesting realization to see how different we work.
My husband and I,
and,
you know,
now he has an office that's downstairs.
We kind of created this room and I can hear his music thumping and I'm just going,
(37:15):
how can you work with that?
Because that would not be my way at all.
I need really quiet as well.
Um,
and that's why,
as I said,
I utilize that couple of hours on a Saturday morning where my kids were out of the house because that was just a dream for me.
It's just a quiet house,
(37:36):
you know.
Um,
because that's how I work.
Whereas,
you know,
one of my daughters,
she always plays music when she's doing her homework and things like that,
which,
you know,
wouldn't,
wouldn't work for me.
No,
I know.
So that goes back to ground rules.
So,
one,
so you talk about a lot of activities in your book.
And one of them I know is about journaling.
(37:57):
So,
are you a big proponent of journaling as a way to kind of,
um,
think through writing?
Absolutely.
And,
and I resisted it for a long time.
That's why I can confidently say it works.
Now.
Um I think we're moving so fast.
I think anywhere where we're intentional about our decision making,
(38:17):
I think our nervous systems are a little frayed because of the life we're living.
Um,
and so often we can react rather than respond to something.
Whereas I think if we can settle into some journaling also doesn't need to take a long time either.
Um,
I encourage people to put a timer on though.
So maybe for five minutes you'll be surprised how long five minutes is and just to do that free writing and it might be that you go,
(38:43):
I can't think of anything else.
You know,
I can't think of another solution for this problem,
but just keep writing and you'll be surprised what,
um,
comes up at the back of your monkey,
what I call your monkey mind,
you know,
where it's like,
oh,
you know,
you're sort of in that of this and this,
whereas there'll be another solution at the back of that.
Um,
I often that you haven't been able to tap into.
(39:05):
Yeah.
I often get people to do that,
uh,
in workplaces when they're having a conflict with someone else.
And you'll be surprised what,
you know about the other person or,
oh,
you know,
they're going through this at the moment and this is why this is happening.
And,
um,
you can just broaden your perspective,
um,
on,
on things I find through journaling or as I said,
(39:27):
if there's a,
I've,
I've actually had teams do it in their teams meeting where they've got a problem and they all journal for five minutes and then they talk about the solutions to the problem and they will all say,
well,
look,
I hadn't actually thought about that as a possible solution till I started writing.
That's interesting.
I know people that do group sprints.
I used to do group sprints when I was first,
(39:48):
you know,
early on in my career where you're online with somebody or you're together in a coffee shop and you just,
you have your timer set for 15 minutes and you're just writing whatever it is,
whether it's on your project,
your,
you know,
your piece of fiction is seen or something else.
But yeah,
that process of doing that um that writing sort of collaboratively can be really inspiring and motivating.
(40:12):
Keep you going when you think you don't have something to say because other people are doing it and here you are with the timer on.
Absolutely.
I think that's a great way to approach it.
I think for me,
writing too is how I think I have a friend who loves road trips.
I,
I'm not a fan of road trips and she loves them and she's put,
(40:35):
you know,
100,000 miles on her two year old car through road trips and she tells me,
but that's her plotting time.
She plots during that time and I,
you know,
I couldn't do it because my thoughts are all over the place.
I might think of something brilliant.
I will forget what it was.
Absolutely 100% because I don't hold on to things through that just thinking process.
(40:59):
I need to write it down.
So when I am plotting,
I have to write it down when I'm working through some,
you know,
problem that I have or something that I just need to process through.
I need to write it down because otherwise my thoughts just spin and I,
I can't like,
grab on to anything so it can be really helpful.
(41:19):
I'd be the same.
Yes.
Absolutely.
So people process differently.
So journaling,
you know,
it may not be everybody's cup of tea,
but for some people,
it may be the way that you are able to tap into what's going on or what you need to do or something,
you know,
in your life or something in your,
in your writing project.
Whatever.
(41:39):
Look,
as I said,
I resisted it for a long time and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
But there's never been a time that I haven't done this exercise with someone where they weren't intrigued by it or didn't recognize it,
maybe brought something else up for them.
So,
(41:59):
so,
yeah.
And as I said,
I think we're moving at this cracking pace and anything that gives us that little bit of space to,
you know,
pause and reflect and,
you know,
as I say,
just broaden our thinking,
I think that's a real opportunity.
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(43:03):
And here we are on the cusp of December,
coming up to December and I wanted to go through some of these journaling questions that I came across in your book.
So I,
I think that this is a great time for all of us.
Whether we're writers or whatever it is that we do to reflect,
I think December is that time to kind of look back on the year,
(43:26):
see what's worked,
see what hasn't see what my successes were,
see what,
you know,
I wasn't successful at whatever and kind of um start planning for next year.
But I loved these questions that you created in the book.
And the first was if I was talking to a friend,
what advice would I give them right now?
So,
(43:46):
what,
what is it about that question that you think um trigger something in our brains?
I think we're much kinder to other people than we are to ourselves.
So I think that's um a real opportunity to be gentle on yourself.
And um you know,
I find in my work more and more,
I think that's so important.
(44:08):
Uh I,
I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Doctor Kristin Neff who um you know,
works a lot is,
you know,
expert in the self compassion space.
Um You know,
I think that has never been more important um for us to just be a bit kind uh a little gentler with ourselves.
So,
so I think,
and so by,
by asking that question about somebody else,
(44:29):
we're able to see that,
that we have the capacity to operate with that kindness and we need to turn around and direct it to ourselves.
OK?
And then what am I doing?
Really Well,
right now I think that's such a great question because I think it's easy to get into a space where you feel like you're not doing anything.
(44:53):
Well,
I feel overwhelmed a lot of the time and sometimes I feel like I'm not doing anything at 100% because I'm juggling too many things.
But if I was to really stop and think about it or if I talked to,
uh,
you know,
somebody in my world and they're going,
oh my gosh,
I can't believe you did that or this or the other thing.
And I'm like,
oh,
yeah,
actually I did do that.
Well,
(45:13):
even though,
you know,
so i it's,
it's important to,
to turn that question on ourselves and think about what we are doing well and to recognize that,
acknowledge it.
Absolutely.
We,
um,
we know from the science we're five times more likely to think of negative than positive.
So we really need some stickiness around the positive.
(45:33):
So,
you know,
my family,
we have it at dinner time,
we go around and talk about something that's,
we're thankful for,
that's gone.
Well,
I,
um,
just did an exercise with the team this week,
um,
a,
you know,
virtual meeting throughout the state and we finished off with what's gone well,
this year,
because this is a group of people who work in the social services area and they are helping people all like doing amazing things every day.
(45:58):
And,
you know,
often in the calls,
they'll,
you know,
when we meet,
they'll talk about the things that haven't gone well,
where they haven't been able to help someone ill.
But it was like,
who did you help?
And they'll tell this amazing story where they've,
you know,
just changed a person's life.
I'm saying,
let's think about that for a minute,
you know.
So I agree with you.
So we do need some,
some stickiness whether it's,
(46:19):
you know,
some sort of gratitude process.
Um But it uh ground rule with it,
like I'm gonna do it every Sunday.
I'm gonna write some things that went really well this week or I go and do it at the end of the day or when I have um,
a meeting with the person who I'm connecting with,
we're gonna start our meeting with what's going well rather than,
oh,
these are the things we need to problem solve that aren't going well.
(46:42):
Yeah,
that's something we learn as teachers with parent,
teacher conferences.
Start with the good stuff.
What is,
what's the good thing that your kid is doing before you launch into what the problem is?
You know,
and there are things that sometimes we can get really clouded,
you know,
um,
at work and even as I said,
I work a lot in,
you know,
in the conflict space when people aren't getting on at work.
(47:04):
Um,
and I'll say to people,
well,
yeah,
what do you like about that?
Person.
They go,
oh,
look,
I,
I have worked with them for 10 years and,
and this,
and this is good but sometimes we can get really clouded by what's not going.
Well,
um,
as I said,
I think we need some stickiness around the good stuff.
Yeah.
And about our writing too because it's very easy to get down on ourselves about the quality of our writing or the way the plot's going or I,
(47:32):
you know,
often I think,
oh my God,
this is the worst thing I've ever written on the project that I'm working on.
It is never going to live up to my expectations or what the previous books have been.
Only to find out that,
of course,
I pull it through in the end and,
you know,
it ends up being very great,
but,
you know,
we are hardest on ourselves.
You're so right.
So your next question is,
what would it look like if I was kind to myself and,
(47:54):
and that we need to do that not only in our personal lives and in our work lives,
but as writers,
we need to figure out how to be kind to ourselves about our writing.
Absolutely.
Um You know,
what would you say to a colleague?
You'd say?
Look,
just go away and go for a walk around the block and take a few deep breaths,
come back and have another,
look at it.
(48:14):
It's not gonna be as bad as you think.
You know,
that's the sort of thing you'd say to yourself and go,
oh,
I can't believe that this isn't coming together.
And,
uh,
you know,
um,
and that's not gonna help,
as I said,
all that does is just light up your adrenaline and light up your nervous system and that's,
that's not a good space for creativity.
No,
definitely not.
(48:34):
Definitely not.
I've been there.
All right.
What steps have I taken?
So,
that's,
um,
that's kind of forcing you into action right into,
to whether if you acknowledge,
oh,
well,
I actually haven't taken any steps,
then you need to and if you have,
then you're acknowledging and recognizing rather that,
(48:55):
oh,
I'm doing things to support my balanced life or my practice or whatever it is.
And sometimes I think it just takes the first step can lead to the next step,
you know,
and if so if you want to start a mindfulness program and you've been putting it off for three years,
just sit and listen to a song for,
(49:15):
you know,
one song,
just listen to every word and that's a mindful activity.
Just start,
you know,
um,
or you might just,
I love that.
Yeah.
Or you might just,
I'm gonna take 10 deep breaths.
That's a mindful activity,
you know,
rather than go,
I have to meditate for 10 minutes every day,
you know.
So I think sometimes you can become overwhelmed rather than go.
(49:38):
But what can I manage where where can I start?
And that one step can lead to the next one.
The,
the idea of being mindful to me is so important because we can be so fractured with our time and think that we don't have time to take a break or to be mindful because we need to do this work.
(50:00):
We need to do that.
There's so many things on our to do list,
but it's more important to step back and take care of ourselves,
our mental health.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think that is,
it just,
you know,
what advice would you give a friend?
It's like,
you know,
you know,
just give yourself 10 minutes.
Um,
whereas you,
you'd say no,
you've got to get this done right now.
(50:21):
Whereas what's going to be the better result,
right.
My son is always saying,
mom,
you're always working and I always have my computer.
So I'm trying to be really intentional about putting my computer down at a certain time or when we're together so that he doesn't only remember that I was always working,
you know,
that we have some quality time together.
Yes.
Yes.
Look,
it's never been more important to have some ground rules around how we operate with devices for all of us.
(50:47):
It's just,
uh,
all of us,
you know,
because it's just too easy,
isn't it with,
you know,
phones?
And I've got the screen in front of me.
I've got my ipad here too and I have my phone,
you know,
so it's just surrounding our life.
Um So that's a great close the computer,
but pick up the phone.
That's not helping.
Absolutely.
(51:07):
Yeah.
So,
all right.
Um So we have two more of your journaling questions.
What has surprised me about what I have achieved?
I love this question again because it goes back to acknowledging the positives,
acknowledging our successes.
And it's again,
so easy to focus on the negatives that we forget about the fact that,
(51:32):
well,
wait a second,
I maybe I didn't reach my 5000 words this week.
But I had three great days of writing where I wrote,
you know,
1000 words a day and they were good words,
you know.
So,
so it's acknowledging those successes,
that's so important.
Absolutely.
And I think we,
yeah,
certainly in,
in,
as say,
where,
where I do most of my work in workplaces,
(51:53):
you know,
uh people will say,
oh,
I've got no,
you know,
I've achieved nothing.
And they'll say,
well,
talk to me about,
you know,
what projects you've worked on this year and they'll tell me,
oh,
I did this and I did this and I'll do this and it's like I'm exhausted just hearing how many great things you've done this year.
Um But there is a thing that jumps out at us,
you know,
which is a shame,
wouldn't it have been nice if it was?
(52:14):
But we really,
and I certainly talk to you know,
workplaces about having some team activities around,
you know,
patting yourselves on the back,
you know,
we achieve great things,
we,
you know,
leap over tall buildings and then we just go on to the next thing really quickly.
Um,
rather than,
you know,
so maybe you might have a bit of a celebration,
(52:35):
like when I get to 5000 words,
I,
whatever it might be for you,
you might go and have a piece of cake somewhere or you might go for a walk,
some,
take your dog for a walk or you might,
you know,
it might be when you get,
when you get to the end of a chat,
you might go and have a massage or something really lovely.
You know,
like,
um to have those things to go,
(52:55):
you know,
because often,
you know,
we pat other people on the back,
but we need to pat ourselves on the back too.
We forget about ourselves.
Yeah.
Um,
and the last thing is what have I learned along the way?
What have I learned if I'm in Australia?
What have I learned along the way?
Like,
you know,
it's,
it's um along the same lines of successes,
(53:18):
but it's also as we talked about at the very beginning and acknowledging or recognizing what we know now that we didn't know then maybe.
And I think that's so important to,
um,
to just recognize that we are growing and we're learning,
(53:39):
we're always growing and we're always learning and as writers,
we're always growing and learning and improving our craft.
That's what this podcast is about.
It's helping people continue to grow as writers.
So I love that idea that we want to reflect on what I've learned.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Um,
you know,
half hour I come,
(53:59):
um,
you know,
what it occurs to me that,
you know,
you might have at the end of,
you know,
uh writing,
you might,
you know,
go and,
and,
you know,
write just for a minute,
you know,
what you're happy about with what you've been writing.
You know,
so you,
that's how you end your day.
You know,
we talked about earlier.
What are your ground rules to put a line in the sound?
(54:20):
How nice would it be to be to have a line in the sound where you go?
I'm really glad I've written 3000 words.
I'm really,
was really happy with that paragraph and wow,
I loved that the character did this,
you know,
so you finished your day going,
this is what I've achieved or,
you know,
if you're being intentional about improving your craft or learning something new,
I learned how to show rather than tell better than I knew before or I,
(54:44):
I understand backstory or deep point of view now because I watched that youtube video and,
oh,
that makes sense to me.
So it's,
it's acknowledging how we're growing in whatever our field is.
I,
I am I conquered some piece of technology that's really helping my writing,
you know,
something like that as well.
(55:05):
You know,
I took that time for my writing to,
but that's really helping,
you know.
So I think there's lots of things um that we can say you're doing a great job.
Yeah.
So,
agree.
Well,
Sharon Dormady,
I want to thank you for waking up at four in the morning to chat with us on the Writer's Spark podcast.
(55:27):
I appreciate it so much.
I love your book,
work Your Magic.
I love the Pillars that you talked about.
If we could before we close,
just go through them one more time.
Um Real briefly so that we're cemented it into our minds.
So the Magic Pillars,
um authenticity,
ground rules Eye,
(55:48):
which is the connection piece and curiosity.
Yes.
So I think that's something we should all really internalize and,
and focus on and put it up on our bulletin boards or on our walls behind our computer is magic.
I love that idea.
It's a great word.
It's fascinating.
Melissa.
Thank you so much.
It's been so it had never occurred to me to even think about my writing with the magic um framework.
(56:13):
So I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Well,
I have two and I think that there's a lot of great takeaways for our listeners too.
Uh So I appreciate that.
I appreciate the time.
I especially appreciate that you woke up so early to chat with me.
So,
thank you for that too.
And thank you for writing such an interesting book that,
you know,
we can all learn from and,
(56:33):
and,
you know,
apply to ourselves and,
and grow from.
I love that.
I really enjoyed the conversation.
Me too.
Well,
have a great rest of the middle of the night.
The sun come up,
we're just approaching summer,
so the sun's just come up.
Um,
so it's,
it's daytime.
(56:55):
Oh,
ok.
Well,
are you gonna stay up?
I don't know.
I'll see.
I,
I really enjoyed the conversation so I feel uh into the day.
So we'll see.
Mhm.
Good.
Well,
yeah,
again,
thank you.
I,
I've enjoyed the conversation as well.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
(57:16):
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot Writers Spark academy.com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.
(57:36):
Happy Writing.
Magic in the workplace isn't only for working in an office.
It applies to us entrepreneurs,
uh the people that are running our own businesses and that's what being a writer is.
It's running your own business.
My guest today is Sharon Darmody and she's wrote,
written the book Work Your Magic with a framework to help us succeed,
(00:25):
to help us acknowledge our successes,
to help us reflect.
And it's a fascinating conversation.
It's a fascinating framework that she wrote actually for the business world,
but that we can apply to our lives as writers.
So that's what I'm talking about today.
Stay tuned for my chat with Sharon Darmody about her magic framework.
(00:49):
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
(01:09):
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(01:32):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina town through writers spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner,
as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
(01:59):
Welcome to the Writer Spark Podcast.
My guest today is Sharon Darmody who is the author of Work Your Magic,
which is the subhead is to create a better business community that works for everyone and my understanding.
(02:20):
Well,
first of all,
welcome Sharon to the podcast.
Thanks so much,
Melissa.
Thanks for having me and we can,
we chatted about this a second ago,
but it's 1 p.m. for me,
Eastern Time in the US.
And you are 4 a.m. Australian time right now,
which is amazing.
Thank you for being awake at this hour.
(02:41):
Most welcome.
That's why,
as I said to you before,
this is what happens when you live on the other side of the world.
You've got to get used to some of these.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
you're a better person than me.
I'm not sure I could do that be coherent at four in the morning.
Well,
I'm very glad to have you on the podcast and,
um,
to talk about your philosophy of magic in the workplace,
(03:04):
but applying that to a writer's life.
But before we get there,
I would love to hear a little bit about your origin story,
your background as a consultant and kind of what led you to write this particular book.
Ah,
thank you.
Um,
it's actually,
yeah,
it's,
it's nice to sort of reflect on it,
(03:25):
uh,
because I never really considered myself an author.
I would never have thought I would have written a book.
So,
it's been a bit of a surprise.
I've been working with organizations for over 20 years,
uh,
mainly in the area of,
um,
mental health,
but certainly,
uh,
health and well being,
but certainly mental health.
Um,
and I guess,
(03:46):
easily to help people to stay engaged and thriving at work.
And one of my clients said to me one day,
you know,
you've really helped with all these things.
You've been all these exercises you've been giving me,
she said you should write them all down.
And so I thought,
oh,
that's actually not a bad idea because,
you know,
I do lots of different work and,
(04:07):
you know,
I own a business so I've got new staff member members coming into the business.
So,
initially I wrote it all down thinking it would be maybe something I would use internally at work um with coaching and training,
you know,
other consultants.
Um And then when I put it all together because I sort of ended up,
I kept writing.
It was like,
oh yes.
(04:27):
And I do this and I do this and I do this.
Um I thought,
oh,
this could actually be a real book and that's how work magic came about.
That's so funny that you say that,
that as you were writing,
you were thinking,
oh,
I do this and I do this and I do this the same thing.
I'm a teacher by trade public education.
And then I started teaching creative writing for adults and now I have an online writing academy with courses and it's not until you start writing it down or start crafting lessons that you realize everything that you know,
(05:00):
and what information,
what knowledge you can impart to others.
I had,
I went through that same process.
Oh,
I know this.
I know that I know.
Oh,
I gotta add this because that's something else I know.
And you know,
you,
you,
you just gain all of this knowledge over the years and you don't even really realize what you've gained.
And I think sometimes you take it for granted and so certainly what clients have told me,
(05:24):
um,
like sometimes I think I've got these big fancy tricks but it's the smallest things that make the difference that you forget and they go,
oh,
yeah.
I know you told me these things but it was this,
I did this and it just changed everything for me.
Right.
Because we,
it's just part of our makeup now.
It's what we do.
Right.
And so we don't even think about these things and,
(05:46):
and you kind of just operate under the assumption that,
oh,
they already know how to do that.
Everybody knows how to do that within your given field.
But it's not true because we've learned this over time.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No,
it's interesting.
It is.
Ok.
Well,
let's dive into our topic which is working your magic,
(06:06):
but applying it to a writer's life,
which is often a very solitary life.
A lot of people,
I would venture to say that maybe the majority of writers have other jobs that they do because writing is not the profession that earns you tons of money unless you're in that 1%.
Um But I am super curious to see how your,
(06:27):
um,
your program of magic in the workplace,
which magic standing for meaning authenticity,
ground rules eye and curiosity applies to writers and the lives that we are leading.
Look,
I think,
you know,
you've just sort of raised that with me when we were talking before and I actually,
(06:49):
as I'm reflecting on it,
I think there is lots of crossover because I think with meaning,
I think you've got to be really clear about why you're doing it for exactly the reason that you said most of us have another job.
You know,
I'm doing another job.
I did this in the extra hours of the day that you,
(07:12):
um,
I think unless you're really clear about why you're doing and doing this and passionate about it,
then it could be very hard to put that extra time in and find the space and also feel good about doing it,
you know,
um giving up your Saturdays or your,
you know,
Thursday nights,
things like that to get this done.
(07:33):
Um I guess with authenticity.
Absolutely.
It's about finding your voice and maybe feeling you can speak,
maybe not what everyone wants to hear,
but what,
you know,
you need to say.
Um So,
and I think that's important in workplaces and I think that's important as an author,
you know,
really being clear about what your message is and,
(07:55):
and how,
how do you kind of apply that to somebody who's a fiction writer?
Because with non fiction,
I think it's easier to,
to really hone in and,
and determine what is your message,
what is it that you're writing about that?
You're trying to impart and share knowledge about with others,
but with fiction writing that's a little bit different.
So how would you go about finding that authenticity?
(08:19):
You know,
I think it comes down to the themes that are built into our stories and we all kind of gravitate towards specific things.
I always have strong female relationships in every single book or series that I write.
That's a,
a reoccurring theme.
So how does a writer kind of hone in on that authenticity for themselves?
Well,
I think like most things we approach.
(08:42):
Um even as I say,
I mean,
my experience is workplace uh consultant and,
and,
but I think there is some crossover there that we can sort of think,
oh,
I know,
I want to say this,
but do people want to hear it now?
I think with writing,
you do actually have to consider it,
this hopefully will be commercially successful.
So you need to have that balance as well.
(09:04):
But sometimes I can imagine you thinking I want to go there with this character but you pull back because you go,
oh,
I'm not sure the audience wants to hear it or,
and you play it safe rather than actually going there.
Um And I find,
uh and,
and obviously this is in workplaces and so I'll go back to my where I work.
(09:26):
Um you know,
you've got to be respectful,
you work in large organizations with different people.
But still,
I think there's an opportunity,
I think when everyone can sort of bring their voice,
bring their solutions forward,
we get a better mix in workplaces rather than when people feel they need to sort of put on a mask to come to work and be a certain person or look a certain way.
(09:46):
Right.
And I think that that kind of applies to writers who sometimes write to the trends that are happening right now because I think when you're writing to trends,
you've already sort of missed the boat,
right,
because it's already happening.
And by the time you're done with your book,
and especially if you go traditionally,
(10:09):
you know,
it's such a long,
lengthy process as you probably know to get a book published,
that trend has passed and we're on to something new.
So I think it's finding that thing that you actually love and want to write the book that of your heart rather than trying to say,
well,
that's what's popular.
So I'm going to write that,
which is less authentic.
Absolutely.
(10:30):
I think,
you know,
a good,
another example of the crossover is,
you know,
when you are working at a company and you might think this is what a manager looks like.
So I'm gonna be like this,
I'm gonna be this manager rather than me as a manager.
Um Similarly as an author,
I'm gonna be like this author rather than get I'm gonna be my,
I'm gonna be me as an author.
(10:52):
Right.
Right.
I go through that with my teaching and my coaching is I coach writers and I have classes that I teach and my approach to teaching and coaching I think is,
is different than a lot of other people.
And um my interaction especially as a coach is,
I think much more personable and,
and definitely there as a guide,
but I've had to kind of figure out what is my approach,
(11:15):
what is my authentic way of interacting with my students and with my clients and as I'm a freelance editor as well.
So with those people that I'm editing,
because those are important relationships to build and I want to be authentic in how I am interacting with these folks.
(11:36):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I think,
as I say,
it's a fascinating conversation to have.
I think there's lots of crossover and I think that's where and we'll get to the connection piece,
but that's when we connect better and that's when things work better because we work better as a tribe,
we work better when we are part of something bigger and people,
people want to see you,
(11:56):
you know,
um And when we sort of know when we don't see people,
you know,
when we're getting a version of them,
it doesn't quite feel the same.
Right.
That's so true.
It's obvious we are perceptive and intuitive,
I think just naturally.
And so it's,
it's not hard to tell when you're not getting a real,
the real person when you're getting some sort of mask like you referred to earlier.
(12:20):
Yeah.
And that's no fun.
That doesn't,
that doesn't feel like a productive relationship to have.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yes.
So,
yeah,
I think,
um I think,
yeah,
there's lots of,
lots of crossovers I,
I'll think about this conversation for a long time.
I think we can come back and do part two.
So you mentioned the tribe too.
(12:42):
And that's so important because,
you know,
in the workplace,
in reading your book you have.
Um,
well,
I think this goes to the eye and magic.
So kind of jumping around a little bit here but you talk about,
you know,
you can be in your own little bubble and not really connected with the people around you.
And that's very true for somebody who works more isolated,
(13:05):
like a writer.
You've got to go out and find that tribe,
you've got to connect with other people who are going through living your passion,
doing what you do.
Uh Absolutely.
Again,
uh uh I think there are a lot of crossovers here.
I certainly found that um when I started writing,
I found um because,
you know,
it is,
(13:26):
you know,
my side work and I didn't really know any other writers.
Um Luckily I reconnected even myself,
I reconnected with a school friend who's living in Hong Kong at the moment and she's doing uh while she's in writing a book,
she's writing a course.
Um And so now we have a monthly uh Zoom call which has just meant the world to me.
(13:47):
Um And so I think that as I say,
it can feel a little isolating.
Um And there are unique problems and I think we like to solve problems with other people so we can run ideas by one another.
But I think as an author,
you're spending a lot of time,
you know,
in your office,
by yourself with your own thoughts and to have that community uh is so important also,
(14:08):
you know,
a lot of people now again,
if I cross back over to the workplace,
are working from home now,
post COVID.
And so it might be,
you know,
in the past you were working as an author and you did a couple of hours at night and on the weekends,
but during the week,
you got to go out and be with people,
whereas now you might be working at this desk as well during the week.
(14:29):
Um So I think it's even more important to making,
make sure you're,
you know,
connecting in with people.
That's so true.
I hadn't really thought about that.
But,
you know,
it,
it is challenging,
working from home.
And I have to be really intentional about where I work because I,
sometimes I'm working in the living room,
(14:50):
but that's my home space.
Right.
So I go in the sun room where I come into my office and I tend to be far more productive in my office even though I don't always come here to work.
But having that sort of separation of home and work space when you are working from home,
I feel like is,
is very important.
Is that something that would fit into the g,
(15:12):
the ground rules of your magic program.
Yeah,
absolutely.
And I think that's,
um,
essential.
I think there are lots of,
I think,
and when we initially started talking about this was,
was the ground rules that really jumped out at me as crossing over with the writer's life.
But certainly,
you know,
I've got clients who,
(15:33):
well,
one that jumps out is that,
um,
before COVID.
Um,
and,
you know,
a lot of people in Australia are back in the workplace in some capacity.
But,
you know,
when we were,
you know,
in lockdown,
um he used to ride his bike to work and then after,
um COVID,
so what he would do at the end of his work day was he would get on his bike and ride around the neighborhood and sort of ride back in cos,
(15:57):
he said he felt it was that time on the bike that made him disconnecting and he found just kind of,
um,
even if he'd gone for a bike ride in the morning at the end of the day,
if he just turned off his computer and went into the house,
he was still sort of talking about,
uh,
he was still thinking about work and just still not really at home and with his family.
(16:18):
But he found that if he on his bike and he said,
even if he didn't have time for a long ride,
even if he just went a few blocks just that process of getting on the bike.
It was that muscle memory of this is how I disconnect from work and then he,
you know,
rode back in and he was at home and finished work for the day.
I really love that idea.
(16:38):
It,
that has never occurred to me to do something really physical or tangible to,
to force that disconnect because you're not,
especially as a writer,
if you're writing at home,
you're not,
you know,
getting in your car and leaving your workplace and going home,
you're already there.
So,
whatever,
(16:59):
you know,
whenever you stop to actually physically do something to sort of force that transition seems so logical to me,
it seems to make so much sense.
I'm going to try that,
but I won't fight because we live in a hilly place.
But I'll go for a walk.
Yeah.
Go for a walk or a client of mine go,
just goes and has a shower and pictures the day washing away.
(17:21):
I've got another client who hoses the garden,
you know.
So there are lots of things you can do,
but it just is,
as I say AAA rhythm and a ritual that says,
ah,
you know,
work's finished for today.
That's my line in the sand.
And even if you have a day job and you have a routine when you're either getting up early and raining or you're putting in the hours at night after you finished your day job.
(17:47):
You still want to create that transition because it's still different from your home life.
So,
now you have three things that you're trying to separate.
Yeah.
So it's even more important.
II,
I really agree.
Certainly when I was writing,
um,
my daughters go to an art class on a Saturday morning and I really use that as my,
kind of what I almost refer to as my sprint time.
(18:10):
They sort of walked out the door and I really thought I've got two hours now and I,
I just,
you know,
was very disciplined and used ground rules.
They were my ground rules that I sat down and really utilized that time.
So it's about figuring out,
you know,
what those are for you,
right?
And ground rules can also apply to creating your routine.
(18:31):
So not even talking about the transition between,
you know,
your life responsibilities,
but,
you know,
I'm going to write to for an hour every day or I'm going to write 1000 words a day or I'm gonna write 5000 words a week,
whatever that routine is,
setting those ground rules for yourself as a way to,
um,
you know,
to have a target to have a goal.
(18:54):
Hm.
Absolutely.
So,
the ground rules are the routines,
the rhythms,
the rituals that support you.
And I think they've never been more important because life is moving so fast.
There's a lot going on and our brains like control and we're not getting a lot of it but if we have these things where we go,
(19:14):
oh,
I know this.
Oh,
I do this every Saturday morning.
Oh,
that feels good.
So,
you feel like you've got your feet on the ground?
Which,
as I said,
in the,
in the world where we've had a lot of uncertainty,
we're all moving pretty fast.
It feels good to sort of go.
Oh,
I know this.
I,
because I do this regularly.
Um,
and it can be really reassuring for our nervous system if nothing else.
(19:37):
Yeah,
I love that.
And I think it's so important.
I've talked about that before in my podcast,
written blogs about it.
But that routine for me,
it's so important because it's so easy to get off track,
you know,
and suddenly the day is gone and you haven't accomplished what you set out to accomplish because your routine went out the door.
(19:58):
You know,
I had to take the dog to the vet the other morning and there went 2.5 hours of my writing time and it was very discombobulating because my routine was interrupted.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No.
So I can really see.
Um also because there are lots of ways you can procrastinate as a writer.
(20:19):
I,
I know that from experience that when I was really clear about when I had this kind of,
I would call it also a sprint time or my hour of power,
um,
that I would sort of really focus,
uh,
what do you say to people who,
like I did with the vet,
have these responsibilities that creep up,
(20:39):
that really interfere with the ground rules that you've set for yourself.
How do you,
have you stopped that from derailing,
you know,
on a,
on a longer,
on a more permanent basis?
Because once you're off a routine it's so easy to stay off the routine,
harder to get back on.
Mhm Yes.
(20:59):
Look,
I would say to be gentle with yourself because life's gonna happen.
And that's certainly my experience um that,
you know,
you can set all the ground rules and you can think I'm gonna get it done in this way.
But life happens sometimes like your dog having to go to the vet like there's nothing more important than looking after your dog where big dog people at our house.
(21:22):
Um So I just think be gentle with yourself.
Say,
look,
I had to,
our dog is Luna.
I had to go and be with Luna today.
But you know what I'm getting back on track tomorrow.
I think what we can do is we can really berate ourselves like we can be our harsh,
harshest critic.
Um And so I think,
I don't think that helps then because then if we're berating ourselves,
(21:45):
we know from the science that it would be like you coming up to me,
Melissa and going Sharon,
you're not doing a great job.
I would be kind of alarmed by it and my,
it would set my adrenaline going well,
it's no different when I say that to myself.
Um,
and then is that gonna help your writing process if your adrenaline's running and you're feeling a bit discombobulated rather than saying,
(22:06):
look,
I had to do this today.
I'm doing the best I can.
I'm gonna try no negative self talk.
My husband and I always with our kids growing up be at the dinner table,
you know,
and,
and somebody would say something that was negative about themselves or anything else,
you know,
and we're like,
no,
no,
no,
no negative self talk because that,
you know,
we don't want to reinforce that.
So that's been something that's sort of our family mantra and it comes back now my kids are grown and,
(22:31):
and,
you know,
when somebody says something,
somebody will say no,
no,
no,
no negative self talk,
it's really like embedded.
Oh,
it's so important.
Absolutely.
I just couldn't,
um,
you know,
I think we are really tough on ourselves and I guess a lot of the work I do,
I talk to people about,
well,
how can you,
how would you talk to somebody else?
(22:53):
You know,
you wouldn't,
you wouldn't say that to anyone else.
Right.
Right.
And then,
uh,
in terms of just kind of getting back on the horse,
I read atomic habits fairly recently.
And that's one of the kind of prime principles that he talks about the author talks about which is,
don't break the chain.
(23:14):
You know,
if you miss a day of working out,
ok,
you miss a day,
don't beat yourself up,
but get back on.
Don't break the chain.
Like,
don't let more than one day pass when you don't do the thing that you've committed to doing whatever that is.
You know,
if it's cleaning up the dishes at night and making sure everything is put away.
So you wake up to a clean kitchen.
I'm notorious for not putting all the clean dishes away.
(23:36):
You know,
don't break the chain though.
Don't let that happen over and over or even more than once in a row because again,
it's a gray slope.
Right.
Actually,
I really enjoyed it to the habit and it is that too.
So just the next day go,
I'll be at my desk at nine o'clock because that's my ground rule.
(23:58):
Yes.
Yes.
And,
you know,
that's really important,
I think for writers too because it's,
especially if you're fortunate enough to write full time as I am.
Uh,
now,
well,
full time along with all the other self employed things I do.
But it's easy to,
(24:19):
you know,
flitter around the house and do this or that and not end up at the desk or at the computer until 10 o'clock or 1030.
So,
setting that,
that routine for yourself,
not only in this is,
these are my work hours.
This is when I'm going to start.
But also an editorial calendar,
you know,
especially if you're an indie published author,
(24:39):
setting a date when you need to have that book completed by and the publication date,
even though it's a contract with yourself,
not a publisher,
I think that's so important because you're running your own business.
You are a small business owner.
Yes,
absolutely.
(24:59):
Um,
I couldn't agree more having been,
I'm a,
you know,
small business owner in my other life.
Um,
that you do need to really,
um,
you know,
set your own parameters.
Um,
and he said as well,
be gentle with yourself.
Um,
even in terms of what you can achieve,
um,
and make sure that it's realistic as well.
(25:20):
But I think it,
yeah,
absolutely.
You've got to,
you know,
um,
get an idea of what you'll get what you can realistically achieve in a week and sort of map that out.
I used to sort of,
you know,
have a,
a plan for,
at least finishing the thought I was on because my book is full of exercises.
(25:40):
So it'll be like I'll finish that,
you know.
Um,
so I'd have,
you know,
an idea that I'd get three exercises done.
So,
a lot of my book will go through exercises I do with people.
So I would just jot them down and then I would start writing and I would try and at least bring that to completion before I'd,
I'd get up that's a great idea because it's easy to lose the momentum of what you were thinking about.
(26:05):
I do that with scenes.
I have to finish this scene before I stop because I'm gonna lose my train of thought or my momentum of what was happening and what I want it to be.
If I set it aside,
unless I'm having a problem with it.
If I have a problem with it,
I definitely set it aside.
But as a general rule,
I try and complete a scene similarly.
(26:26):
If I,
if I finished an idea,
I would use that as an opportunity to maybe have a break,
go and have a coffee,
you know,
um,
and then come back and look at it with fresh eyes for,
rather than rereading it immediately that I finished it.
That's when I would go.
Oh,
I'll have the break now and I'll come back and give it another read and,
and that I always found that helpful where I'd go.
(26:48):
Oh,
no,
that sentence I should have written it like this.
Whereas I think if I'd reread it straight straight away,
I may not have realized.
Yeah,
I do the same thing and sometimes I have to set it aside for more than just a break.
You know,
if again,
if I'm having an issue,
(27:08):
I need to resolve something,
I'll go on to some other part of the book or I'll set it aside so my subconscious can work,
you know,
so that,
that,
um that need to step away and then come back to it with fresh eyes,
whether it's in an hour or in two days,
you know.
Yes.
No,
it makes complete sense.
I think that,
you know,
so uh so the ground rules have to be flexible too.
(27:32):
Um a bit of flexibility,
as you said,
if you're having difficulty with the scene for you,
um it may not be helpful just to sit and try and push through.
Um It is better to go away,
but then have a plan of when you're returning.
Yes.
Yes,
because you want to make sure that you do plan to return and not just let it sit there indefinitely because you've,
(27:57):
you know,
you've broken the chain or,
you know,
you,
you've forgotten your ground rules and you don't come back to it.
OK.
So we have meaning creating meaning for what you're doing.
Authenticity and ground rules.
And the next part of your magic program is the eye,
which is I me,
it's also about the connection piece,
(28:18):
the eye.
So I'm bringing myself to work and I'm gonna meet other people and we're gonna connect in the book.
Um I talk a lot about the loneliness epidemic that we're going through.
Um And again,
it really connects in because,
you know,
it can be quite solitary being a writer.
Um But we know that uh certainly in Australia,
one in four Australians are experiencing real loneliness at any one time and that's got real impacts in terms of our physical health and well-being as well.
(28:47):
Um And I believe the statistics are even higher in the States.
So,
you know,
if we wanna be productive writer,
we've gotta be,
well,
you know,
we've got to be.
So I think,
you know,
without overlaying and I think we need to really realize we are in this,
in the,
in the middle of this loneliness epidemic that maybe,
you know,
we don't belong to some of the traditional groups that we belong to as,
(29:08):
as we've talked about,
maybe we're working from home.
Sometimes people don't seem to know their neighbors as much as they used to.
So I think we've got to be more intentional about how we connect in with other people because it does impact on our health and well being and,
you know,
we're not going to rot very well if we're on.
Well,
yeah,
I think it's,
it's funny that you say that we don't know our neighbors because we just met some neighbors about a month ago who have lived here for seven years and we've lived here almost for five years and it was our dog,
(29:40):
lovely dogs that brought us together.
They have a brand new rescue that they were walking and we have three dogs that we always walk.
And so that made us stop and have a conversation,
you know,
whereas before we just waved and said,
hey,
you know,
but there's not necessarily an impetus to stop and chat and now,
you know,
we've become friends and we have dog play dates and we've,
(30:02):
you know,
hung out together and,
but it's,
you know,
it's so easy to exist in your world and not connect with the people around you.
You have to be intentional about that.
Absolutely.
You know,
I don't think people spend as much time in their yards as they did often.
We've got garage doors that just go up and we just drive in and we're in our room.
(30:22):
Uh,
so we're not getting out and opening gates like we did.
Um,
and funnily enough,
we met our,
one of our neighbors.
Um,
we've been in this house a few years,
um,
when our dog got out and I brought the dog in so we were able to introduce ourselves again.
It all goes back to the dogs.
That's so funny.
My,
we had neighbors that lived next to us when I was growing up.
(30:43):
And,
um,
I mean,
we know,
knew the kids but my mom and that mom hadn't met for like 15 years.
I mean,
they had,
you know,
crossed paths and said hello,
but they hadn't talked and,
you know,
only to find out they're both artists and they had all of these things in common and they wasted 15 years because they didn't,
(31:04):
you know,
borrow a cup of sugar or come over with some,
for some coffee or something,
you know,
and all of that time.
It's so,
yeah,
I'm all about being really intentional about forming connections when we moved from Texas to North Carolina,
which is where we're at now.
My youngest son was going into 11th grade,
you know,
and I was not about to join PT A and do all of that stuff anymore because I had done all of that.
(31:29):
And so I had to figure out like,
how am I going to meet people?
How am I going to meet other writers?
How am I going to meet other people that I connect with?
And so I,
I used meet up actually and was just very intentional about it.
And then writing organizations,
I've met people through the national or I guess international even writing organizations that we belong to.
(31:51):
Well,
if you're passionate about it,
if it's your m your meaning,
then I think that's when you are going to connect in a real way with people.
So I think it's a real opportunity,
but I do think um coming back to what I saying,
I think we've got to be really mindful of that at the moment that if we want to keep ourselves well,
be it at work,
which is what I talk about or be it for our own work.
(32:12):
If we're working as a writer,
I think we really need to remember.
We need people.
Do you think the pandemic?
Uh Well,
in your book,
you referenced the pandemic as being,
um,
maybe not a catalyst for some of the isolation and some of the need for this sort of magic program to connect with people.
(32:33):
But,
uh it's certainly contributing to how much worse it is now a or how much more important it is for people to get connected,
stay connected,
reconnect.
Yes.
Oh,
absolutely.
I think that,
you know,
um,
probably where I live in Australia,
we were not uh as impacted uh other parts of Australia were so Melbourne had long periods of lockdown,
(32:56):
but I'm in Brisbane and we didn't.
But I think you really do need to um again,
going into the magic model,
be curious uh which is the,
the last pillar about what changes you need to make.
So just because it's worked in the past,
doesn't mean it's gonna work now because,
you know,
for a lot of us,
the world um it,
(33:16):
there's been a lasting impact of the changes.
How does that tie into curiosity?
Um which again is the last part of magic?
Well,
I think that and again,
it,
it can go back to your work as a writer.
You know,
being curious about your routines,
your rhythms,
rituals.
So they may have worked in the past,
but they may not work.
Now,
you may be doing another job as your other work and,
(33:41):
and you need to tweak what you're doing in terms of your um your work schedules and how you and how you approach writing,
um,
from a workplace point of view,
you know,
I think that,
uh,
certainly in Australia and I know in the States as well,
people are considering that work from home balance,
you know.
So do I go into the office three days or two days and,
(34:02):
and for workplaces,
you know,
I encourage them to keep being,
um,
curious.
Um,
and maybe even to set up a pilot,
say,
look,
we're trialing this out,
we're gonna try out this pattern for three months.
And then we're gonna say,
is this working for us?
Are we seeing one another?
Are we spending enough time working from home?
What's the balance that are gonna make us the best we can be?
(34:26):
Um,
so to,
to not to just sort of put something in and go well,
that's the rule and that's how we're gonna do it from now on.
Um So,
so curiosity not complacency,
so we could throw in that other sea there.
So we're not being complacent about what we've created or how we live or how we're doing our jobs.
We are curious to reflect upon it and see what can change what we can make better,
(34:49):
what's not working,
what is working?
I think sometimes we can rush into solutions,
you know,
because again,
as I said before,
we like our brains like control.
Um And so we can rush in to find a solution and go,
we're gonna lock that in rather than staying in the messy middle a little bit and going.
Is this working?
(35:09):
Is this the best way of approaching things?
And I can really,
again,
you know,
it's been a really interesting conversation with you.
Um,
I think it's really interesting in terms of writing.
So,
whilst,
you know,
you may have always had this routine,
maybe that's not working for you and maybe you'll feel that again.
We're very intuitive.
(35:29):
You'll just go,
well,
how I've been writing in the past doesn't work for me.
It might even be where you're writing.
You know,
you might need to go to a library or go somewhere else for all sorts of different reasons.
Maybe if you've got a family member who's working from home,
you actually need to go somewhere else where it's gonna be a little bit quieter or,
you know?
Oh,
my gosh,
(35:50):
that brings up.
That's so funny.
That brings up a,
a pandemic story.
So,
my husband was a high school principal at the time during the pandemic and,
you know,
the school shut down.
So he was working from home.
Well,
the life of a principal is greatly meetings,
part of meetings.
And so he would be,
we have a small house.
(36:10):
So he would be in the same room or in the other room and talking through his meetings and driving me absolutely batty because that is not my way.
I'm not in meetings all the day.
I want quiet because that's how I work best.
I was like,
you need to go back to work,
go back to work,
please.
(36:31):
I think a lot of us found that when we,
when we initially moved into this house,
um,
we shared this office and we realized that didn't work either.
And for the same reason,
you know,
you know,
a lot of us are on these sorts of calls.
Now,
um,
you know,
in your office,
you're not necessarily,
you know,
head down working.
Um,
and so to have two people trying to,
(36:51):
to manage that it didn't work in the same room for sure.
Oh,
my gosh.
Yeah.
It was a real,
it was a real,
uh,
really interesting realization to see how different we work.
My husband and I,
and,
you know,
now he has an office that's downstairs.
We kind of created this room and I can hear his music thumping and I'm just going,
(37:15):
how can you work with that?
Because that would not be my way at all.
I need really quiet as well.
Um,
and that's why,
as I said,
I utilize that couple of hours on a Saturday morning where my kids were out of the house because that was just a dream for me.
It's just a quiet house,
(37:36):
you know.
Um,
because that's how I work.
Whereas,
you know,
one of my daughters,
she always plays music when she's doing her homework and things like that,
which,
you know,
wouldn't,
wouldn't work for me.
No,
I know.
So that goes back to ground rules.
So,
one,
so you talk about a lot of activities in your book.
And one of them I know is about journaling.
(37:57):
So,
are you a big proponent of journaling as a way to kind of,
um,
think through writing?
Absolutely.
And,
and I resisted it for a long time.
That's why I can confidently say it works.
Now.
Um I think we're moving so fast.
I think anywhere where we're intentional about our decision making,
(38:17):
I think our nervous systems are a little frayed because of the life we're living.
Um,
and so often we can react rather than respond to something.
Whereas I think if we can settle into some journaling also doesn't need to take a long time either.
Um,
I encourage people to put a timer on though.
So maybe for five minutes you'll be surprised how long five minutes is and just to do that free writing and it might be that you go,
(38:43):
I can't think of anything else.
You know,
I can't think of another solution for this problem,
but just keep writing and you'll be surprised what,
um,
comes up at the back of your monkey,
what I call your monkey mind,
you know,
where it's like,
oh,
you know,
you're sort of in that of this and this,
whereas there'll be another solution at the back of that.
Um,
I often that you haven't been able to tap into.
(39:05):
Yeah.
I often get people to do that,
uh,
in workplaces when they're having a conflict with someone else.
And you'll be surprised what,
you know about the other person or,
oh,
you know,
they're going through this at the moment and this is why this is happening.
And,
um,
you can just broaden your perspective,
um,
on,
on things I find through journaling or as I said,
(39:27):
if there's a,
I've,
I've actually had teams do it in their teams meeting where they've got a problem and they all journal for five minutes and then they talk about the solutions to the problem and they will all say,
well,
look,
I hadn't actually thought about that as a possible solution till I started writing.
That's interesting.
I know people that do group sprints.
I used to do group sprints when I was first,
(39:48):
you know,
early on in my career where you're online with somebody or you're together in a coffee shop and you just,
you have your timer set for 15 minutes and you're just writing whatever it is,
whether it's on your project,
your,
you know,
your piece of fiction is seen or something else.
But yeah,
that process of doing that um that writing sort of collaboratively can be really inspiring and motivating.
(40:12):
Keep you going when you think you don't have something to say because other people are doing it and here you are with the timer on.
Absolutely.
I think that's a great way to approach it.
I think for me,
writing too is how I think I have a friend who loves road trips.
I,
I'm not a fan of road trips and she loves them and she's put,
(40:35):
you know,
100,000 miles on her two year old car through road trips and she tells me,
but that's her plotting time.
She plots during that time and I,
you know,
I couldn't do it because my thoughts are all over the place.
I might think of something brilliant.
I will forget what it was.
Absolutely 100% because I don't hold on to things through that just thinking process.
(40:59):
I need to write it down.
So when I am plotting,
I have to write it down when I'm working through some,
you know,
problem that I have or something that I just need to process through.
I need to write it down because otherwise my thoughts just spin and I,
I can't like,
grab on to anything so it can be really helpful.
(41:19):
I'd be the same.
Yes.
Absolutely.
So people process differently.
So journaling,
you know,
it may not be everybody's cup of tea,
but for some people,
it may be the way that you are able to tap into what's going on or what you need to do or something,
you know,
in your life or something in your,
in your writing project.
Whatever.
(41:39):
Look,
as I said,
I resisted it for a long time and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
But there's never been a time that I haven't done this exercise with someone where they weren't intrigued by it or didn't recognize it,
maybe brought something else up for them.
So,
(41:59):
so,
yeah.
And as I said,
I think we're moving at this cracking pace and anything that gives us that little bit of space to,
you know,
pause and reflect and,
you know,
as I say,
just broaden our thinking,
I think that's a real opportunity.
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(43:03):
And here we are on the cusp of December,
coming up to December and I wanted to go through some of these journaling questions that I came across in your book.
So I,
I think that this is a great time for all of us.
Whether we're writers or whatever it is that we do to reflect,
I think December is that time to kind of look back on the year,
(43:26):
see what's worked,
see what hasn't see what my successes were,
see what,
you know,
I wasn't successful at whatever and kind of um start planning for next year.
But I loved these questions that you created in the book.
And the first was if I was talking to a friend,
what advice would I give them right now?
So,
(43:46):
what,
what is it about that question that you think um trigger something in our brains?
I think we're much kinder to other people than we are to ourselves.
So I think that's um a real opportunity to be gentle on yourself.
And um you know,
I find in my work more and more,
I think that's so important.
(44:08):
Uh I,
I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Doctor Kristin Neff who um you know,
works a lot is,
you know,
expert in the self compassion space.
Um You know,
I think that has never been more important um for us to just be a bit kind uh a little gentler with ourselves.
So,
so I think,
and so by,
by asking that question about somebody else,
(44:29):
we're able to see that,
that we have the capacity to operate with that kindness and we need to turn around and direct it to ourselves.
OK?
And then what am I doing?
Really Well,
right now I think that's such a great question because I think it's easy to get into a space where you feel like you're not doing anything.
(44:53):
Well,
I feel overwhelmed a lot of the time and sometimes I feel like I'm not doing anything at 100% because I'm juggling too many things.
But if I was to really stop and think about it or if I talked to,
uh,
you know,
somebody in my world and they're going,
oh my gosh,
I can't believe you did that or this or the other thing.
And I'm like,
oh,
yeah,
actually I did do that.
Well,
(45:13):
even though,
you know,
so i it's,
it's important to,
to turn that question on ourselves and think about what we are doing well and to recognize that,
acknowledge it.
Absolutely.
We,
um,
we know from the science we're five times more likely to think of negative than positive.
So we really need some stickiness around the positive.
(45:33):
So,
you know,
my family,
we have it at dinner time,
we go around and talk about something that's,
we're thankful for,
that's gone.
Well,
I,
um,
just did an exercise with the team this week,
um,
a,
you know,
virtual meeting throughout the state and we finished off with what's gone well,
this year,
because this is a group of people who work in the social services area and they are helping people all like doing amazing things every day.
(45:58):
And,
you know,
often in the calls,
they'll,
you know,
when we meet,
they'll talk about the things that haven't gone well,
where they haven't been able to help someone ill.
But it was like,
who did you help?
And they'll tell this amazing story where they've,
you know,
just changed a person's life.
I'm saying,
let's think about that for a minute,
you know.
So I agree with you.
So we do need some,
some stickiness whether it's,
(46:19):
you know,
some sort of gratitude process.
Um But it uh ground rule with it,
like I'm gonna do it every Sunday.
I'm gonna write some things that went really well this week or I go and do it at the end of the day or when I have um,
a meeting with the person who I'm connecting with,
we're gonna start our meeting with what's going well rather than,
oh,
these are the things we need to problem solve that aren't going well.
(46:42):
Yeah,
that's something we learn as teachers with parent,
teacher conferences.
Start with the good stuff.
What is,
what's the good thing that your kid is doing before you launch into what the problem is?
You know,
and there are things that sometimes we can get really clouded,
you know,
um,
at work and even as I said,
I work a lot in,
you know,
in the conflict space when people aren't getting on at work.
(47:04):
Um,
and I'll say to people,
well,
yeah,
what do you like about that?
Person.
They go,
oh,
look,
I,
I have worked with them for 10 years and,
and this,
and this is good but sometimes we can get really clouded by what's not going.
Well,
um,
as I said,
I think we need some stickiness around the good stuff.
Yeah.
And about our writing too because it's very easy to get down on ourselves about the quality of our writing or the way the plot's going or I,
(47:32):
you know,
often I think,
oh my God,
this is the worst thing I've ever written on the project that I'm working on.
It is never going to live up to my expectations or what the previous books have been.
Only to find out that,
of course,
I pull it through in the end and,
you know,
it ends up being very great,
but,
you know,
we are hardest on ourselves.
You're so right.
So your next question is,
what would it look like if I was kind to myself and,
(47:54):
and that we need to do that not only in our personal lives and in our work lives,
but as writers,
we need to figure out how to be kind to ourselves about our writing.
Absolutely.
Um You know,
what would you say to a colleague?
You'd say?
Look,
just go away and go for a walk around the block and take a few deep breaths,
come back and have another,
look at it.
(48:14):
It's not gonna be as bad as you think.
You know,
that's the sort of thing you'd say to yourself and go,
oh,
I can't believe that this isn't coming together.
And,
uh,
you know,
um,
and that's not gonna help,
as I said,
all that does is just light up your adrenaline and light up your nervous system and that's,
that's not a good space for creativity.
No,
definitely not.
(48:34):
Definitely not.
I've been there.
All right.
What steps have I taken?
So,
that's,
um,
that's kind of forcing you into action right into,
to whether if you acknowledge,
oh,
well,
I actually haven't taken any steps,
then you need to and if you have,
then you're acknowledging and recognizing rather that,
(48:55):
oh,
I'm doing things to support my balanced life or my practice or whatever it is.
And sometimes I think it just takes the first step can lead to the next step,
you know,
and if so if you want to start a mindfulness program and you've been putting it off for three years,
just sit and listen to a song for,
(49:15):
you know,
one song,
just listen to every word and that's a mindful activity.
Just start,
you know,
um,
or you might just,
I love that.
Yeah.
Or you might just,
I'm gonna take 10 deep breaths.
That's a mindful activity,
you know,
rather than go,
I have to meditate for 10 minutes every day,
you know.
So I think sometimes you can become overwhelmed rather than go.
(49:38):
But what can I manage where where can I start?
And that one step can lead to the next one.
The,
the idea of being mindful to me is so important because we can be so fractured with our time and think that we don't have time to take a break or to be mindful because we need to do this work.
(50:00):
We need to do that.
There's so many things on our to do list,
but it's more important to step back and take care of ourselves,
our mental health.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think that is,
it just,
you know,
what advice would you give a friend?
It's like,
you know,
you know,
just give yourself 10 minutes.
Um,
whereas you,
you'd say no,
you've got to get this done right now.
(50:21):
Whereas what's going to be the better result,
right.
My son is always saying,
mom,
you're always working and I always have my computer.
So I'm trying to be really intentional about putting my computer down at a certain time or when we're together so that he doesn't only remember that I was always working,
you know,
that we have some quality time together.
Yes.
Yes.
Look,
it's never been more important to have some ground rules around how we operate with devices for all of us.
(50:47):
It's just,
uh,
all of us,
you know,
because it's just too easy,
isn't it with,
you know,
phones?
And I've got the screen in front of me.
I've got my ipad here too and I have my phone,
you know,
so it's just surrounding our life.
Um So that's a great close the computer,
but pick up the phone.
That's not helping.
Absolutely.
(51:07):
Yeah.
So,
all right.
Um So we have two more of your journaling questions.
What has surprised me about what I have achieved?
I love this question again because it goes back to acknowledging the positives,
acknowledging our successes.
And it's again,
so easy to focus on the negatives that we forget about the fact that,
(51:32):
well,
wait a second,
I maybe I didn't reach my 5000 words this week.
But I had three great days of writing where I wrote,
you know,
1000 words a day and they were good words,
you know.
So,
so it's acknowledging those successes,
that's so important.
Absolutely.
And I think we,
yeah,
certainly in,
in,
as say,
where,
where I do most of my work in workplaces,
(51:53):
you know,
uh people will say,
oh,
I've got no,
you know,
I've achieved nothing.
And they'll say,
well,
talk to me about,
you know,
what projects you've worked on this year and they'll tell me,
oh,
I did this and I did this and I'll do this and it's like I'm exhausted just hearing how many great things you've done this year.
Um But there is a thing that jumps out at us,
you know,
which is a shame,
wouldn't it have been nice if it was?
(52:14):
But we really,
and I certainly talk to you know,
workplaces about having some team activities around,
you know,
patting yourselves on the back,
you know,
we achieve great things,
we,
you know,
leap over tall buildings and then we just go on to the next thing really quickly.
Um,
rather than,
you know,
so maybe you might have a bit of a celebration,
(52:35):
like when I get to 5000 words,
I,
whatever it might be for you,
you might go and have a piece of cake somewhere or you might go for a walk,
some,
take your dog for a walk or you might,
you know,
it might be when you get,
when you get to the end of a chat,
you might go and have a massage or something really lovely.
You know,
like,
um to have those things to go,
(52:55):
you know,
because often,
you know,
we pat other people on the back,
but we need to pat ourselves on the back too.
We forget about ourselves.
Yeah.
Um,
and the last thing is what have I learned along the way?
What have I learned if I'm in Australia?
What have I learned along the way?
Like,
you know,
it's,
it's um along the same lines of successes,
(53:18):
but it's also as we talked about at the very beginning and acknowledging or recognizing what we know now that we didn't know then maybe.
And I think that's so important to,
um,
to just recognize that we are growing and we're learning,
(53:39):
we're always growing and we're always learning and as writers,
we're always growing and learning and improving our craft.
That's what this podcast is about.
It's helping people continue to grow as writers.
So I love that idea that we want to reflect on what I've learned.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Um,
you know,
half hour I come,
(53:59):
um,
you know,
what it occurs to me that,
you know,
you might have at the end of,
you know,
uh writing,
you might,
you know,
go and,
and,
you know,
write just for a minute,
you know,
what you're happy about with what you've been writing.
You know,
so you,
that's how you end your day.
You know,
we talked about earlier.
What are your ground rules to put a line in the sound?
(54:20):
How nice would it be to be to have a line in the sound where you go?
I'm really glad I've written 3000 words.
I'm really,
was really happy with that paragraph and wow,
I loved that the character did this,
you know,
so you finished your day going,
this is what I've achieved or,
you know,
if you're being intentional about improving your craft or learning something new,
I learned how to show rather than tell better than I knew before or I,
(54:44):
I understand backstory or deep point of view now because I watched that youtube video and,
oh,
that makes sense to me.
So it's,
it's acknowledging how we're growing in whatever our field is.
I,
I am I conquered some piece of technology that's really helping my writing,
you know,
something like that as well.
(55:05):
You know,
I took that time for my writing to,
but that's really helping,
you know.
So I think there's lots of things um that we can say you're doing a great job.
Yeah.
So,
agree.
Well,
Sharon Dormady,
I want to thank you for waking up at four in the morning to chat with us on the Writer's Spark podcast.
(55:27):
I appreciate it so much.
I love your book,
work Your Magic.
I love the Pillars that you talked about.
If we could before we close,
just go through them one more time.
Um Real briefly so that we're cemented it into our minds.
So the Magic Pillars,
um authenticity,
ground rules Eye,
(55:48):
which is the connection piece and curiosity.
Yes.
So I think that's something we should all really internalize and,
and focus on and put it up on our bulletin boards or on our walls behind our computer is magic.
I love that idea.
It's a great word.
It's fascinating.
Melissa.
Thank you so much.
It's been so it had never occurred to me to even think about my writing with the magic um framework.
(56:13):
So I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Well,
I have two and I think that there's a lot of great takeaways for our listeners too.
Uh So I appreciate that.
I appreciate the time.
I especially appreciate that you woke up so early to chat with me.
So,
thank you for that too.
And thank you for writing such an interesting book that,
you know,
we can all learn from and,
(56:33):
and,
you know,
apply to ourselves and,
and grow from.
I love that.
I really enjoyed the conversation.
Me too.
Well,
have a great rest of the middle of the night.
The sun come up,
we're just approaching summer,
so the sun's just come up.
Um,
so it's,
it's daytime.
(56:55):
Oh,
ok.
Well,
are you gonna stay up?
I don't know.
I'll see.
I,
I really enjoyed the conversation so I feel uh into the day.
So we'll see.
Mhm.
Good.
Well,
yeah,
again,
thank you.
I,
I've enjoyed the conversation as well.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
(57:16):
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot Writers Spark academy.com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.
(57:36):
Happy Writing.
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