June 26, 2023 • 35 mins
Episode 26
Figuring out how to introduce your protagonist (and sleuth) can be a real challenge. In today's episode, Melissa discusses this craft topic with author Zara Altair.
DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:
- The protagonist in the ordinary world
- Not getting hung up on the beginning
- Diving in with action
- The Used Virgin, an Argolicus Mystery by Zara Altair
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Resources
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- Learn more about the host, Melissa Bourbon: http://melissabourbon.com
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- Visit Zara Altair's Website: https://amzn.to/3NMVoMG
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Knowing where to start your story is one of the biggest challenges for a writer and how much of the ordinary world do you put in before your hero crosses over into the new world.
That's what we're talking about today on the Writer Spark podcast.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
(00:26):
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national bestselling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(00:59):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina town through writer Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,
(01:22):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Rider Spark Podcast.
My guest today is Zara Alter and I am so happy to have her as my guest and she is the author of the Argali mystery series,
(01:45):
which is 1/6 century Italian sort of historical series,
which in particular,
I love because of the real history connection.
Uh And several of my series also have real people and real um historical elements and I love bringing that in.
(02:08):
So welcome.
Welcome.
And I would love to hear a little bit about your origin story where you began and how this series came about.
Hi,
Melissa.
It's wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for inviting me.
It's just like out of the Blue and it's like,
wow,
that's fun.
Um because I always love talking about writing.
(02:29):
So origin.
Well,
I've been writing stories since I could write,
which is about five or six years old.
They were very short stories.
But,
you know,
um and the a series came about uh my,
I was talking with my daughter and,
(02:51):
and I was talking about going to Italy and she said,
mommy,
you should go to Ravenna.
And then she started on this long story about Theodoric and,
and bringing his ostrogoth people from the north in,
into Italy and settling in Ravenna and becoming the king of Italy.
(03:17):
That's a very short version.
But anyway,
uh and I went,
wow,
I wonder what it was like to live then?
And that is exactly how this all got started.
And I did go to Ravenna and I talked to I,
I made appointments and interviewed several history professors at the University of Bologna in Ravenna.
(03:45):
And,
and of course,
they were just totally jazzed that this crazy woman from the United States wanted to write about,
you know,
the sixth century uh Ravenna in Italy.
And they were most giving of their time and of their resources and telling me which libraries to go to all kinds of stuff.
(04:09):
It so that's kind of the origin and that's kind of how it started.
And Argus um actually was a real person,
but hardly anything is known about him.
So I,
I it was a wonderful combination of me being able to dive into the period,
(04:29):
have a character and then create the character in his background because hardly anything is mentioned about him.
How did you know about him?
Um I was reading,
I was researching and I was reading Casso Doris letters called Very Eye.
(04:51):
And he's mentioned several times,
but only by name.
And then there's a thing where he was naughty.
I mean,
it was,
you know,
yeah,
go fix that out.
So,
from there you got to really just create this character.
So I got to create the character as a person.
Yes.
And give him a personality and a background and a family and friends and all that sort of thing.
(05:16):
Yeah.
That's,
that's awesome.
That's so fun.
Um,
ok.
So what else have you done in your career?
This?
Well,
I,
uh,
I was a poet for many years.
I worked with,
um,
California poets in the schools um bringing poetry and teaching poetry to kids and in the classroom.
(05:39):
And that was from kindergarten through high school.
And then I taught at um the local university I taught,
actually,
I had a course for junior high kids and then I had a course for teachers.
Um and I've been writing 11 way or another all my life.
(06:04):
Yeah.
That's so cool.
Uh Poetry.
I was a middle school slash high school teacher,
middle school.
Most of my career I don't teach in,
I teach adults now creative writing,
but I don't teach in the public schools anymore.
But teaching poetry was always one of my favorite things to do and to kind of turn kids on to reading poetry,
(06:26):
but really writing it and to be able to express themselves and,
and tap into a different way of writing versus expository her narrative especially Woa junior high when everything is so confusing.
Yes,
hormones are surging or sudden,
II,
I was at one school where they,
(06:47):
I couldn't believe this,
but they changed the names of all the Hispanic kids and anglicized their names.
And I'm like,
how can you do this?
They already are,
like,
totally confused about who they are.
One minute,
they're 10 and the next minute they're 35 and now you're changing their name.
(07:09):
And that was crazy.
But that poetry is a way to get into their hearts and let them really express themselves and get in touch with their feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With the school changed their names,
the school changed their name,
the school changed their names.
(07:30):
I've never heard of it.
So,
uh,
if they came in as Jaime they might call him Jim.
Oh,
really?
Wow.
Yeah,
that was a long time ago.
And,
um,
I found it totally horrific for all the reasons that you can possibly think of.
(07:51):
Um,
but anyway,
I,
you know,
because I was a poet in the schools.
I dropped in,
out of the sky and we did poetry together and then I was gone.
But,
um,
I,
I was amazed,
I think it's a bigger longer story for that,
but not here.
Um,
(08:12):
yeah.
So I,
I always,
I always been writing and then,
um,
I was,
um,
screenwriting and doing script reading.
So I read a lot of scripts and that's when I realized that that beginning writers make the same mistakes or they misinterpret what they think is carved in stone.
(08:41):
Let's put it that way.
They,
they misinterpret.
What they think is carved in stone and nothing is carved in stone.
What I've been thinking about lately is,
is for writers is um how do you,
how do you introduce your detective,
your sleuth,
the beginning of your book?
(09:02):
It's how you hook your reader.
It's how you get them to care about whatever trials and tribulations happen later on in this story.
If they don't care about your character,
they aren't gonna care about the story either.
Yeah,
that is so true.
And even uh experienced writers,
I mean,
my 30th book came out recently and I'm working on a new project and going through it with my agent and,
(09:27):
you know,
we together collaboratively retooled the opening because of where I had started it and where she thinks it should start.
And I mean,
it,
it never necessarily gets easier.
No,
no,
it doesn't.
It doesn't.
I uh the,
the,
my current book that I'm working on um I was taking a course with Nassim Khan and I just took a practically the whole first page.
(10:00):
I mean,
I had the,
my,
my intro is a setup for what happens later in the story.
And,
and,
and then when I was looking at it,
I went,
I don't need this,
I don't need this.
I don't need this.
I need to get in to the action.
I need to follow my own advice.
I need to get into the story more quickly.
(10:24):
Isn't it funny?
You're able to see these issues in somebody else's work much more easily than we can observe them or even apply them right out of the gate in our own work.
It is,
it's just,
it's,
it's just amazing even,
even though when you put on your editor hat,
you know,
and you know,
(10:44):
you're,
you're being objective and,
and looking at things with a critical eye,
it's still,
it's really hard to see your own stuff.
Finding that spot to begin though is a real challenge because you have a story in your mind,
right?
And,
and you want to get all of this information across.
But especially now,
(11:06):
I think more than ever before we have to get into that action very quickly in the hero's journey.
This would be the slew the protagonist,
ordinary world,
which you introduced somewhat briefly because we want to get right into the action.
Um But in that ordinary world,
we want to foreshadow something about this.
(11:29):
What I like to think of this is where so many beginning writers get stuck is the ordinary world part.
And I think if you think of the ordinary world part,
uh uh how your detective operates,
(11:49):
what are their skills?
These are the things you want to show your reader.
It's not how they get up in the morning.
It's not when they go in the bathroom and look at the mirror and see their dark curly hair or their long blonde hair or whatever it is,
that is not the ordinary world,
the ordinary world for the reader is.
(12:10):
How does this character operate?
What,
what do they do?
How do they solve problems?
So you want to introduce a problem?
Hey,
you know,
it could be all,
all the wedding muffins for the wedding party burn and the wedding is three hours away.
(12:34):
You know,
how does your cozy character deal with a problem?
That's what your readers want to know about.
How,
how does this character operate?
They don't care at the beginning,
whether their hair is dark and curly or blonde and straight and they don't care if you're,
if your character is short or tall or has a scar on their cheek or any of that stuff,
(12:59):
they really,
really care and how you make the connection with the reader is,
how does that character operate?
Here's a problem.
How do they solve it?
But that needs to be done so subtly because you don't want to beat the reader over the head so that it's clear you're,
you're presenting it for that reason.
(13:21):
Right.
We want to.
Exactly.
So I think,
I think the easiest way to think of it is to how do they operate in the real world?
And,
you know,
the problem could be as simple as,
you know,
the irritating neighbor coming in and saying,
you know,
your sprinkler over watered my Chaia or,
(13:45):
you know,
it doesn't have to be a big deal.
That.
So,
um,
it's,
it's just that there's this,
let's,
let's not even call it a problem.
Let's just call it a situation.
You know,
it's,
there's a situation and your sleuth has to deal with it and that,
(14:06):
that rather than getting up in the morning and eating breakfast and scrolling through their mobile phone or whatever,
you really want to show them do something.
So there's a couple of way,
there's three main ways that you can do this and one is yes by action,
(14:29):
action.
Uh and you can start right in the middle of things.
It's called in races and show your detective in action.
Um If they're law enforcement,
they may be winding up another case,
they're gonna get feedback from the other people on their team or whatever it is.
(14:51):
But the focus is on your detective doing something that illustrates a skill and also you want to show a weakness.
You know,
there's something where they aren't quite up to speed.
Um So because believe it or not weaknesses,
readers love weaknesses because they're human beings and they have weaknesses and it really develops that empathy with the character,
(15:19):
right?
A perfect character is not so interesting.
It's pretty boring.
And the whole idea at the beginning is is is uh that you want your reader to want to follow this character through solving the mystery and not only that but through a series because most of these genre mysteries are series.
(15:45):
So not just one book.
They are.
Yeah.
So you gotta have a character that's got a lot going on.
But you don't have to,
you don't have to,
you,
you don't have to show and,
or tell all that stuff at the beginning,
the beginning is just giving your reader a peek at how your detective operates.
(16:12):
So,
in my books,
I would say that I approach that through my characters,
inner conflict,
whatever that might be.
So you've got your external plot or your external conflict,
that is the mystery,
the solving of the mystery once that happens.
But there also needs to be some sort of inner problem or inner conflict that they're dealing with.
(16:37):
In one of my series,
the characters Ivy uh Cole Pepper in my up series,
her mother has un unexpectedly died which ends up coming into the plot,
but she's grieving and she's trying to figure out,
you know,
how,
how to move forward essentially.
And um she's back in her hometown after being away for a long time and,
(17:00):
and it's forming relationships and connections and um particularly these female connections.
But the,
the inner conflict is sort of dealing with that unexpected loss,
you know,
and,
and that is what informs her throughout.
And then that is what we see growth in as well as the story progresses.
(17:23):
We see this natural progression of her dealing with the grief and being able to move forward,
you know,
on,
on some level I think that works better in a cozy than it does in,
um,
and say a law enforcement mystery.
Oh,
yes,
true.
A crime,
(17:43):
a crime mystery.
Because,
because AAA Cozy is actually much more emotional story.
So bringing all that emotional stuff in at the beginning,
let's go ahead and use yours as an example.
What is the problem or the situation that you present right up front?
(18:05):
That helps inform that character that then,
you know,
ultimately helps that character solve the crime.
OK.
So we can take an example,
like from the Romana,
the Roman heir starts uh with a conversation with Boethius.
The main character Ali is leaving Rome,
(18:28):
he's leaving because he doesn't quite fit in as far as the Romans are concerned.
He's,
he's a country bumpkin and he comes from the south and there's nothing new and I mean,
it still goes on now.
There's northern Italy and southern Italy.
All this comes up.
(18:48):
Why he's leaving,
right?
Bo says,
well,
I know you like books and I,
I was wondering if you do me a favor,
would you take this book that I made and take it to this young fellow that I know who lives in Austria?
And Argo says,
(19:08):
well,
I only have two days.
So,
yeah,
OK,
I can drop it off and that's the beginning of the story because when,
when he gets to Austria and um meets the boy who's a teenager.
Um His father has been murdered that morning.
(19:30):
Ok.
And so that's the crime that ends up being solved.
That's the crime that ends up being solved.
But that's,
but he doesn't find out about the crime till the,
um,
the next chapter when he actually gets to Austria.
But at the beginning it's just setting him up as a book lover,
which he is and hinting at the problems that he has in terms of not fitting in,
(19:54):
in terms of,
of not fitting in.
Yes.
Does that play into the story later on the fact that he doesn't get into every story?
And he also has another thing going on,
which is he,
uh he is a mixed race.
His father is a Roman,
his mother is o and so that sometimes presents problems as well.
(20:20):
Oh,
interesting.
Ok.
So,
yeah,
I think,
um well,
in a cozy mystery,
for example,
it's whatever the hook is plays a part typically in how the sleuth is going to solve the mystery in the end,
you know that there's some skill or something learned from whatever that hook is.
I have a different series.
(20:41):
My Pip and Lane Hawthorn Bib Man series,
we get the sleuths sort of situation or problem actually through the prologue because we learn that there is this,
this curse and this bibliotheca be presented in a lot of different ways.
(21:10):
Absolutely.
But either way,
see,
even with a prologue,
you,
you prologues are really attention grabbers and,
and,
and you're grabbing the reader's attention and you're getting them into not the main story yet,
but something that's hinting at the story to come,
(21:31):
that's the thing.
So I I think the emphasis for today is do that go into the story right away,
however you want to do it can do it through action,
you can do it through dialogue,
you can do it through raising a question but just get,
(21:52):
get into this story.
Save the back story,
save the what they're wearing,
save the mean streets of L A,
Los Angeles or New York or wherever you are,
your town can have mean streets.
Save those for you have a whole novel.
(22:14):
Now there's several 100 pages to bring in all those details.
But the beginning is about getting your reader involved,
getting them to care and getting them to ask questions or what's gonna happen next.
How are they gonna deal with this?
So when you write your subsequent books in the series,
(22:36):
do you present a new situation or a new problem for your protagonist that is different than the one in the previous book or in the initial book that that is specific to the crime that's going to be solved in that subsequent kind of know the problems,
(22:56):
those personal problems usually stem from who he is and his and his background.
But the situations are different and the the people are different and how those problems are used against him as it were.
Are different because you,
because your character is going to grow from each book.
So the problems can't be identical.
(23:19):
Like there has to be some change up in them,
there has to be a change,
there has to be a change,
ok?
If you were going to give a couple of tips to let's say new writers or writers who struggle with the opening because as I mentioned earlier,
you know,
my 30th book came out and it never gets any easier.
You know,
(23:39):
I've been working with my agent on a new proposal and we have reworked the opening a couple of times because trying to decide where we thought it should start to really,
you know,
grab the attention of the reader so it doesn't necessarily get easier.
So what would a couple of tips be to help somebody kind of figure out how to present that problem for the Luthor,
(24:06):
how to know where to start the story,
you know,
where in that ordinary world and how long do you keep them in that ordinary world before there's a mystery to solve hop right in jump,
right in jump right into this story.
You've got the rest of the novel to tell the reader all the backstory,
(24:27):
all the other things,
all the other skills your detective has just jump into the story uh is,
is my,
is my first tip is get going,
get into action.
It's,
it's where I see the biggest problems at the beginning.
They love their character so much,
(24:48):
you know,
and they want to tell you everything about their super cool new character.
You know,
first of all,
it's telling and you really want to show your reader how your detective operate.
Give them just some little tiny problem to solve.
Some little can be the irritating neighbor or it can be winding up the last big case.
(25:14):
It really doesn't matter but give them a problem to solve.
Show your reader how they operate,
show some of their traits.
Are they sloppy?
Are they messy?
And,
and think about traits though,
that might impact how they investigate later on,
right.
The biggest thing you want to do is make that emotional connection with your reader and get them to care about your character and get them to go.
(25:42):
Wow,
this gal,
she's full of spunk.
I wanna know,
you know,
mystery readers are devoted readers.
So they have,
they have their expectations and,
and they know a big mystery is coming when they,
when they pick up a,
a mystery book,
you know,
so you don't have to tell them that what you want to do is get them to connect with your mystery solver,
(26:09):
your detective,
your sleuth.
And so you want is the person who carries the book,
I mean,
the puzzle,
the mystery book two parts,
right?
You've got the puzzle and the mystery reader is committed and wants to solve that puzzle and,
and is intrigued by that.
Right.
But also the character has to be likable enough and relatable enough to carry the entire book.
(26:36):
And if we don't like that person or don't relate to that person,
then we're not going to care about the book and we're gonna put it down no matter how good I think for cozy,
they definitely need to be likable for mysteries or Crime.
They don't always have to be likable,
but they do need to be relatable.
The difference.
(26:57):
Yes,
I've stopped books and my husband has stopped books because there's no likable character.
You know,
likable.
I think there's a spectrum of likability too.
You know,
it doesn't mean that they're necessarily just a peaches and cream,
all,
you know,
smiles.
What gets people too.
I,
I was,
(27:17):
I guess this was about a year ago now and I was reading a well liked British author who write crime mysteries.
I was waiting to see why everybody liked her.
I never got there.
You know,
she had the tall handsome detective and I'm like,
well,
how nice for him.
(27:37):
But,
you know,
I'm waiting for this story.
So,
yeah,
I think it's really important that,
that you want your reader to make that emotional connection.
That's the first thing you want all,
all the,
what I call the telling,
like any of their background or their bigger problems.
(28:04):
You can save those for later if you don't have all the details in there.
Your reader is gonna go.
Whoa.
I wonder why they,
mm.
You know,
and you get to tell them later on.
Right.
You want to parse things out to make it interesting that.
Exactly.
So that's a nice teacher.
Word.
Yeah.
Always the teacher I think also presenting a weakness is another way to do it because as we talked about a minute ago,
(28:34):
nobody's perfect.
We don't want those perfect characters but also a weakness that we see in a character,
whether it's explicit or perceived by that character can automatically sets the sleuth up for some growth which will help them solve the case.
Ultimately,
(28:55):
you know,
they're not as if it's a first and series book that's not already a detective series or a book for example,
but something that's amateur um or a suspense or something,
you have somebody who's not a professional crime solver.
So they at one place and have to grow into that role.
(29:15):
And so we can show that out of the gate with some sort of weakness in the situation that we present.
Yeah,
you don't want them to be goody two shoes,
right?
Or good at everything,
you know.
Yeah.
OK.
Um Any other tips for our new writers,
struggling writers,
people who have challenges with the beginnings,
which is probably everybody,
(29:37):
just everybody just um keep writing,
right.
Never stop.
I,
I would say also don't get so hung up on the beginning,
just keep writing because you can always come back and figure out where to start it after you.
(29:59):
And you know,
it's like the that first sentence,
you know,
you can spend writing the whole rest of the novel figuring out the first sentence.
So yes,
so don't get stymied by that and stuck and not may be able to make forward progress because you are just so focused on that opening line or that opening scene,
(30:21):
whatever it is because you can come back to that and you can change it,
add to it,
edit it,
revise it,
whatever,
you know,
just don't let that stop you.
I would say that almost with every novel I come back and change or tweak or do something different with the opening,
you know,
this,
how,
how it ends up is not necessarily how I started it.
(30:42):
I was listening to an author interview and he said he does 40 revisions.
That's the average number of 40 that he does on a novel.
Wow.
Yeah.
Walter Walter Moseley.
Yeah.
Whoa.
That's a lot.
(31:04):
I would say I do have very many revisions.
A particular project needs.
There isn't a set number.
They don't all need the same level of editing or revision.
So,
what is next for you,
Sarah?
Well,
I'm writing,
I'm leaping out of history and into the present day and,
um,
writing a present day crime scene with,
(31:26):
um,
a homicide detective in Sonoma County California.
And this takes place out in the hills near the coast So it's way out.
Not wine country.
It's the redwoods in a very,
very small town.
So I'm having fun with that.
I,
I have to do a lot of research.
I had learned a lot about how a law enforcement opera officer thinks.
(31:54):
What actually motivates them with lots of help from detective B,
Adam Richardson.
So,
this is a detective story.
Not an amateur sleuth story.
Yeah,
it's a detective story.
Uh,
she's a,
yes,
she's a homicide detective.
So,
yeah,
she's at a completely different level.
(32:15):
Lots about law enforcement,
but there's also lots about spies and then the CIA comes in later.
So there's a lot.
When is that one projected to be finished or to be wrong?
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
I was stuck on the story for quite some time.
So that happens too.
And then just a couple of weeks ago,
(32:36):
everything this new element fell into place and I was like,
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes.
Yes.
So I'm all jazz and I'm writing all this whole series,
this whole new series that goes inside story and I'm very excited about that.
You know,
another thing I,
I would say that has nothing to do with the beginnings of writing a story.
(32:59):
But a writing group helps if you find the right writing group.
And I'm not gonna go into that today.
But I also even um a writing buddy,
I have an,
an author buddy and we meet once a week for about 40 minutes and talk about what we did the week before.
(33:20):
Announce our goals for the coming,
we talk about any issues that may have come up that kept,
kept us from reaching our goals.
And it's very short and we write in different genres.
It's just that it's someone who understands what you're going through because if you talk to your neighbor with the chameleon tree,
(33:44):
they are not gonna understand why something is so frustrating.
Yeah,
that's so true.
Yeah.
And also I think it's,
it's,
it's uh being accountable also and it's having clear intentions with what you're trying to accomplish,
you know,
versus um just writing.
It's like,
you know,
(34:04):
Weight Watchers is check the,
the fact that you're checking in with somebody holds you accountable to a different degree.
Well,
this has been great,
Sarah.
Thank you so much again for joining me on writer Spark.
I really appreciate it and best of luck.
All right.
Thank you so much,
Melissa and for all of you writers out there,
(34:25):
keep writing.
That's exactly right.
Keep writing and don't worry about the beginning,
come back to it,
but jump into some middle of the action,
whatever that looks like next time we'll be talking about revision.
So stay tuned and I will see you then.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
(34:46):
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot riders spark academy dot com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there.
And I will see you next time until then.
(35:06):
Happy Writing.
Knowing where to start your story is one of the biggest challenges for a writer and how much of the ordinary world do you put in before your hero crosses over into the new world.
That's what we're talking about today on the Writer Spark podcast.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
(00:26):
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national bestselling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(00:59):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina town through writer Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,
(01:22):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Rider Spark Podcast.
My guest today is Zara Alter and I am so happy to have her as my guest and she is the author of the Argali mystery series,
(01:45):
which is 1/6 century Italian sort of historical series,
which in particular,
I love because of the real history connection.
Uh And several of my series also have real people and real um historical elements and I love bringing that in.
(02:08):
So welcome.
Welcome.
And I would love to hear a little bit about your origin story where you began and how this series came about.
Hi,
Melissa.
It's wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for inviting me.
It's just like out of the Blue and it's like,
wow,
that's fun.
Um because I always love talking about writing.
(02:29):
So origin.
Well,
I've been writing stories since I could write,
which is about five or six years old.
They were very short stories.
But,
you know,
um and the a series came about uh my,
I was talking with my daughter and,
(02:51):
and I was talking about going to Italy and she said,
mommy,
you should go to Ravenna.
And then she started on this long story about Theodoric and,
and bringing his ostrogoth people from the north in,
into Italy and settling in Ravenna and becoming the king of Italy.
(03:17):
That's a very short version.
But anyway,
uh and I went,
wow,
I wonder what it was like to live then?
And that is exactly how this all got started.
And I did go to Ravenna and I talked to I,
I made appointments and interviewed several history professors at the University of Bologna in Ravenna.
(03:45):
And,
and of course,
they were just totally jazzed that this crazy woman from the United States wanted to write about,
you know,
the sixth century uh Ravenna in Italy.
And they were most giving of their time and of their resources and telling me which libraries to go to all kinds of stuff.
(04:09):
It so that's kind of the origin and that's kind of how it started.
And Argus um actually was a real person,
but hardly anything is known about him.
So I,
I it was a wonderful combination of me being able to dive into the period,
(04:29):
have a character and then create the character in his background because hardly anything is mentioned about him.
How did you know about him?
Um I was reading,
I was researching and I was reading Casso Doris letters called Very Eye.
(04:51):
And he's mentioned several times,
but only by name.
And then there's a thing where he was naughty.
I mean,
it was,
you know,
yeah,
go fix that out.
So,
from there you got to really just create this character.
So I got to create the character as a person.
Yes.
And give him a personality and a background and a family and friends and all that sort of thing.
(05:16):
Yeah.
That's,
that's awesome.
That's so fun.
Um,
ok.
So what else have you done in your career?
This?
Well,
I,
uh,
I was a poet for many years.
I worked with,
um,
California poets in the schools um bringing poetry and teaching poetry to kids and in the classroom.
(05:39):
And that was from kindergarten through high school.
And then I taught at um the local university I taught,
actually,
I had a course for junior high kids and then I had a course for teachers.
Um and I've been writing 11 way or another all my life.
(06:04):
Yeah.
That's so cool.
Uh Poetry.
I was a middle school slash high school teacher,
middle school.
Most of my career I don't teach in,
I teach adults now creative writing,
but I don't teach in the public schools anymore.
But teaching poetry was always one of my favorite things to do and to kind of turn kids on to reading poetry,
(06:26):
but really writing it and to be able to express themselves and,
and tap into a different way of writing versus expository her narrative especially Woa junior high when everything is so confusing.
Yes,
hormones are surging or sudden,
II,
I was at one school where they,
(06:47):
I couldn't believe this,
but they changed the names of all the Hispanic kids and anglicized their names.
And I'm like,
how can you do this?
They already are,
like,
totally confused about who they are.
One minute,
they're 10 and the next minute they're 35 and now you're changing their name.
(07:09):
And that was crazy.
But that poetry is a way to get into their hearts and let them really express themselves and get in touch with their feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With the school changed their names,
the school changed their name,
the school changed their names.
(07:30):
I've never heard of it.
So,
uh,
if they came in as Jaime they might call him Jim.
Oh,
really?
Wow.
Yeah,
that was a long time ago.
And,
um,
I found it totally horrific for all the reasons that you can possibly think of.
(07:51):
Um,
but anyway,
I,
you know,
because I was a poet in the schools.
I dropped in,
out of the sky and we did poetry together and then I was gone.
But,
um,
I,
I was amazed,
I think it's a bigger longer story for that,
but not here.
Um,
(08:12):
yeah.
So I,
I always,
I always been writing and then,
um,
I was,
um,
screenwriting and doing script reading.
So I read a lot of scripts and that's when I realized that that beginning writers make the same mistakes or they misinterpret what they think is carved in stone.
(08:41):
Let's put it that way.
They,
they misinterpret.
What they think is carved in stone and nothing is carved in stone.
What I've been thinking about lately is,
is for writers is um how do you,
how do you introduce your detective,
your sleuth,
the beginning of your book?
(09:02):
It's how you hook your reader.
It's how you get them to care about whatever trials and tribulations happen later on in this story.
If they don't care about your character,
they aren't gonna care about the story either.
Yeah,
that is so true.
And even uh experienced writers,
I mean,
my 30th book came out recently and I'm working on a new project and going through it with my agent and,
(09:27):
you know,
we together collaboratively retooled the opening because of where I had started it and where she thinks it should start.
And I mean,
it,
it never necessarily gets easier.
No,
no,
it doesn't.
It doesn't.
I uh the,
the,
my current book that I'm working on um I was taking a course with Nassim Khan and I just took a practically the whole first page.
(10:00):
I mean,
I had the,
my,
my intro is a setup for what happens later in the story.
And,
and,
and then when I was looking at it,
I went,
I don't need this,
I don't need this.
I don't need this.
I need to get in to the action.
I need to follow my own advice.
I need to get into the story more quickly.
(10:24):
Isn't it funny?
You're able to see these issues in somebody else's work much more easily than we can observe them or even apply them right out of the gate in our own work.
It is,
it's just,
it's,
it's just amazing even,
even though when you put on your editor hat,
you know,
and you know,
(10:44):
you're,
you're being objective and,
and looking at things with a critical eye,
it's still,
it's really hard to see your own stuff.
Finding that spot to begin though is a real challenge because you have a story in your mind,
right?
And,
and you want to get all of this information across.
But especially now,
(11:06):
I think more than ever before we have to get into that action very quickly in the hero's journey.
This would be the slew the protagonist,
ordinary world,
which you introduced somewhat briefly because we want to get right into the action.
Um But in that ordinary world,
we want to foreshadow something about this.
(11:29):
What I like to think of this is where so many beginning writers get stuck is the ordinary world part.
And I think if you think of the ordinary world part,
uh uh how your detective operates,
(11:49):
what are their skills?
These are the things you want to show your reader.
It's not how they get up in the morning.
It's not when they go in the bathroom and look at the mirror and see their dark curly hair or their long blonde hair or whatever it is,
that is not the ordinary world,
the ordinary world for the reader is.
(12:10):
How does this character operate?
What,
what do they do?
How do they solve problems?
So you want to introduce a problem?
Hey,
you know,
it could be all,
all the wedding muffins for the wedding party burn and the wedding is three hours away.
(12:34):
You know,
how does your cozy character deal with a problem?
That's what your readers want to know about.
How,
how does this character operate?
They don't care at the beginning,
whether their hair is dark and curly or blonde and straight and they don't care if you're,
if your character is short or tall or has a scar on their cheek or any of that stuff,
(12:59):
they really,
really care and how you make the connection with the reader is,
how does that character operate?
Here's a problem.
How do they solve it?
But that needs to be done so subtly because you don't want to beat the reader over the head so that it's clear you're,
you're presenting it for that reason.
(13:21):
Right.
We want to.
Exactly.
So I think,
I think the easiest way to think of it is to how do they operate in the real world?
And,
you know,
the problem could be as simple as,
you know,
the irritating neighbor coming in and saying,
you know,
your sprinkler over watered my Chaia or,
(13:45):
you know,
it doesn't have to be a big deal.
That.
So,
um,
it's,
it's just that there's this,
let's,
let's not even call it a problem.
Let's just call it a situation.
You know,
it's,
there's a situation and your sleuth has to deal with it and that,
(14:06):
that rather than getting up in the morning and eating breakfast and scrolling through their mobile phone or whatever,
you really want to show them do something.
So there's a couple of way,
there's three main ways that you can do this and one is yes by action,
(14:29):
action.
Uh and you can start right in the middle of things.
It's called in races and show your detective in action.
Um If they're law enforcement,
they may be winding up another case,
they're gonna get feedback from the other people on their team or whatever it is.
(14:51):
But the focus is on your detective doing something that illustrates a skill and also you want to show a weakness.
You know,
there's something where they aren't quite up to speed.
Um So because believe it or not weaknesses,
readers love weaknesses because they're human beings and they have weaknesses and it really develops that empathy with the character,
(15:19):
right?
A perfect character is not so interesting.
It's pretty boring.
And the whole idea at the beginning is is is uh that you want your reader to want to follow this character through solving the mystery and not only that but through a series because most of these genre mysteries are series.
(15:45):
So not just one book.
They are.
Yeah.
So you gotta have a character that's got a lot going on.
But you don't have to,
you don't have to,
you,
you don't have to show and,
or tell all that stuff at the beginning,
the beginning is just giving your reader a peek at how your detective operates.
(16:12):
So,
in my books,
I would say that I approach that through my characters,
inner conflict,
whatever that might be.
So you've got your external plot or your external conflict,
that is the mystery,
the solving of the mystery once that happens.
But there also needs to be some sort of inner problem or inner conflict that they're dealing with.
(16:37):
In one of my series,
the characters Ivy uh Cole Pepper in my up series,
her mother has un unexpectedly died which ends up coming into the plot,
but she's grieving and she's trying to figure out,
you know,
how,
how to move forward essentially.
And um she's back in her hometown after being away for a long time and,
(17:00):
and it's forming relationships and connections and um particularly these female connections.
But the,
the inner conflict is sort of dealing with that unexpected loss,
you know,
and,
and that is what informs her throughout.
And then that is what we see growth in as well as the story progresses.
(17:23):
We see this natural progression of her dealing with the grief and being able to move forward,
you know,
on,
on some level I think that works better in a cozy than it does in,
um,
and say a law enforcement mystery.
Oh,
yes,
true.
A crime,
(17:43):
a crime mystery.
Because,
because AAA Cozy is actually much more emotional story.
So bringing all that emotional stuff in at the beginning,
let's go ahead and use yours as an example.
What is the problem or the situation that you present right up front?
(18:05):
That helps inform that character that then,
you know,
ultimately helps that character solve the crime.
OK.
So we can take an example,
like from the Romana,
the Roman heir starts uh with a conversation with Boethius.
The main character Ali is leaving Rome,
(18:28):
he's leaving because he doesn't quite fit in as far as the Romans are concerned.
He's,
he's a country bumpkin and he comes from the south and there's nothing new and I mean,
it still goes on now.
There's northern Italy and southern Italy.
All this comes up.
(18:48):
Why he's leaving,
right?
Bo says,
well,
I know you like books and I,
I was wondering if you do me a favor,
would you take this book that I made and take it to this young fellow that I know who lives in Austria?
And Argo says,
(19:08):
well,
I only have two days.
So,
yeah,
OK,
I can drop it off and that's the beginning of the story because when,
when he gets to Austria and um meets the boy who's a teenager.
Um His father has been murdered that morning.
(19:30):
Ok.
And so that's the crime that ends up being solved.
That's the crime that ends up being solved.
But that's,
but he doesn't find out about the crime till the,
um,
the next chapter when he actually gets to Austria.
But at the beginning it's just setting him up as a book lover,
which he is and hinting at the problems that he has in terms of not fitting in,
(19:54):
in terms of,
of not fitting in.
Yes.
Does that play into the story later on the fact that he doesn't get into every story?
And he also has another thing going on,
which is he,
uh he is a mixed race.
His father is a Roman,
his mother is o and so that sometimes presents problems as well.
(20:20):
Oh,
interesting.
Ok.
So,
yeah,
I think,
um well,
in a cozy mystery,
for example,
it's whatever the hook is plays a part typically in how the sleuth is going to solve the mystery in the end,
you know that there's some skill or something learned from whatever that hook is.
I have a different series.
(20:41):
My Pip and Lane Hawthorn Bib Man series,
we get the sleuths sort of situation or problem actually through the prologue because we learn that there is this,
this curse and this bibliotheca be presented in a lot of different ways.
(21:10):
Absolutely.
But either way,
see,
even with a prologue,
you,
you prologues are really attention grabbers and,
and,
and you're grabbing the reader's attention and you're getting them into not the main story yet,
but something that's hinting at the story to come,
(21:31):
that's the thing.
So I I think the emphasis for today is do that go into the story right away,
however you want to do it can do it through action,
you can do it through dialogue,
you can do it through raising a question but just get,
(21:52):
get into this story.
Save the back story,
save the what they're wearing,
save the mean streets of L A,
Los Angeles or New York or wherever you are,
your town can have mean streets.
Save those for you have a whole novel.
(22:14):
Now there's several 100 pages to bring in all those details.
But the beginning is about getting your reader involved,
getting them to care and getting them to ask questions or what's gonna happen next.
How are they gonna deal with this?
So when you write your subsequent books in the series,
(22:36):
do you present a new situation or a new problem for your protagonist that is different than the one in the previous book or in the initial book that that is specific to the crime that's going to be solved in that subsequent kind of know the problems,
(22:56):
those personal problems usually stem from who he is and his and his background.
But the situations are different and the the people are different and how those problems are used against him as it were.
Are different because you,
because your character is going to grow from each book.
So the problems can't be identical.
(23:19):
Like there has to be some change up in them,
there has to be a change,
there has to be a change,
ok?
If you were going to give a couple of tips to let's say new writers or writers who struggle with the opening because as I mentioned earlier,
you know,
my 30th book came out and it never gets any easier.
You know,
(23:39):
I've been working with my agent on a new proposal and we have reworked the opening a couple of times because trying to decide where we thought it should start to really,
you know,
grab the attention of the reader so it doesn't necessarily get easier.
So what would a couple of tips be to help somebody kind of figure out how to present that problem for the Luthor,
(24:06):
how to know where to start the story,
you know,
where in that ordinary world and how long do you keep them in that ordinary world before there's a mystery to solve hop right in jump,
right in jump right into this story.
You've got the rest of the novel to tell the reader all the backstory,
(24:27):
all the other things,
all the other skills your detective has just jump into the story uh is,
is my,
is my first tip is get going,
get into action.
It's,
it's where I see the biggest problems at the beginning.
They love their character so much,
(24:48):
you know,
and they want to tell you everything about their super cool new character.
You know,
first of all,
it's telling and you really want to show your reader how your detective operate.
Give them just some little tiny problem to solve.
Some little can be the irritating neighbor or it can be winding up the last big case.
(25:14):
It really doesn't matter but give them a problem to solve.
Show your reader how they operate,
show some of their traits.
Are they sloppy?
Are they messy?
And,
and think about traits though,
that might impact how they investigate later on,
right.
The biggest thing you want to do is make that emotional connection with your reader and get them to care about your character and get them to go.
(25:42):
Wow,
this gal,
she's full of spunk.
I wanna know,
you know,
mystery readers are devoted readers.
So they have,
they have their expectations and,
and they know a big mystery is coming when they,
when they pick up a,
a mystery book,
you know,
so you don't have to tell them that what you want to do is get them to connect with your mystery solver,
(26:09):
your detective,
your sleuth.
And so you want is the person who carries the book,
I mean,
the puzzle,
the mystery book two parts,
right?
You've got the puzzle and the mystery reader is committed and wants to solve that puzzle and,
and is intrigued by that.
Right.
But also the character has to be likable enough and relatable enough to carry the entire book.
(26:36):
And if we don't like that person or don't relate to that person,
then we're not going to care about the book and we're gonna put it down no matter how good I think for cozy,
they definitely need to be likable for mysteries or Crime.
They don't always have to be likable,
but they do need to be relatable.
The difference.
(26:57):
Yes,
I've stopped books and my husband has stopped books because there's no likable character.
You know,
likable.
I think there's a spectrum of likability too.
You know,
it doesn't mean that they're necessarily just a peaches and cream,
all,
you know,
smiles.
What gets people too.
I,
I was,
(27:17):
I guess this was about a year ago now and I was reading a well liked British author who write crime mysteries.
I was waiting to see why everybody liked her.
I never got there.
You know,
she had the tall handsome detective and I'm like,
well,
how nice for him.
(27:37):
But,
you know,
I'm waiting for this story.
So,
yeah,
I think it's really important that,
that you want your reader to make that emotional connection.
That's the first thing you want all,
all the,
what I call the telling,
like any of their background or their bigger problems.
(28:04):
You can save those for later if you don't have all the details in there.
Your reader is gonna go.
Whoa.
I wonder why they,
mm.
You know,
and you get to tell them later on.
Right.
You want to parse things out to make it interesting that.
Exactly.
So that's a nice teacher.
Word.
Yeah.
Always the teacher I think also presenting a weakness is another way to do it because as we talked about a minute ago,
(28:34):
nobody's perfect.
We don't want those perfect characters but also a weakness that we see in a character,
whether it's explicit or perceived by that character can automatically sets the sleuth up for some growth which will help them solve the case.
Ultimately,
(28:55):
you know,
they're not as if it's a first and series book that's not already a detective series or a book for example,
but something that's amateur um or a suspense or something,
you have somebody who's not a professional crime solver.
So they at one place and have to grow into that role.
(29:15):
And so we can show that out of the gate with some sort of weakness in the situation that we present.
Yeah,
you don't want them to be goody two shoes,
right?
Or good at everything,
you know.
Yeah.
OK.
Um Any other tips for our new writers,
struggling writers,
people who have challenges with the beginnings,
which is probably everybody,
(29:37):
just everybody just um keep writing,
right.
Never stop.
I,
I would say also don't get so hung up on the beginning,
just keep writing because you can always come back and figure out where to start it after you.
(29:59):
And you know,
it's like the that first sentence,
you know,
you can spend writing the whole rest of the novel figuring out the first sentence.
So yes,
so don't get stymied by that and stuck and not may be able to make forward progress because you are just so focused on that opening line or that opening scene,
(30:21):
whatever it is because you can come back to that and you can change it,
add to it,
edit it,
revise it,
whatever,
you know,
just don't let that stop you.
I would say that almost with every novel I come back and change or tweak or do something different with the opening,
you know,
this,
how,
how it ends up is not necessarily how I started it.
(30:42):
I was listening to an author interview and he said he does 40 revisions.
That's the average number of 40 that he does on a novel.
Wow.
Yeah.
Walter Walter Moseley.
Yeah.
Whoa.
That's a lot.
(31:04):
I would say I do have very many revisions.
A particular project needs.
There isn't a set number.
They don't all need the same level of editing or revision.
So,
what is next for you,
Sarah?
Well,
I'm writing,
I'm leaping out of history and into the present day and,
um,
writing a present day crime scene with,
(31:26):
um,
a homicide detective in Sonoma County California.
And this takes place out in the hills near the coast So it's way out.
Not wine country.
It's the redwoods in a very,
very small town.
So I'm having fun with that.
I,
I have to do a lot of research.
I had learned a lot about how a law enforcement opera officer thinks.
(31:54):
What actually motivates them with lots of help from detective B,
Adam Richardson.
So,
this is a detective story.
Not an amateur sleuth story.
Yeah,
it's a detective story.
Uh,
she's a,
yes,
she's a homicide detective.
So,
yeah,
she's at a completely different level.
(32:15):
Lots about law enforcement,
but there's also lots about spies and then the CIA comes in later.
So there's a lot.
When is that one projected to be finished or to be wrong?
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
I was stuck on the story for quite some time.
So that happens too.
And then just a couple of weeks ago,
(32:36):
everything this new element fell into place and I was like,
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes.
Yes.
So I'm all jazz and I'm writing all this whole series,
this whole new series that goes inside story and I'm very excited about that.
You know,
another thing I,
I would say that has nothing to do with the beginnings of writing a story.
(32:59):
But a writing group helps if you find the right writing group.
And I'm not gonna go into that today.
But I also even um a writing buddy,
I have an,
an author buddy and we meet once a week for about 40 minutes and talk about what we did the week before.
(33:20):
Announce our goals for the coming,
we talk about any issues that may have come up that kept,
kept us from reaching our goals.
And it's very short and we write in different genres.
It's just that it's someone who understands what you're going through because if you talk to your neighbor with the chameleon tree,
(33:44):
they are not gonna understand why something is so frustrating.
Yeah,
that's so true.
Yeah.
And also I think it's,
it's,
it's uh being accountable also and it's having clear intentions with what you're trying to accomplish,
you know,
versus um just writing.
It's like,
you know,
(34:04):
Weight Watchers is check the,
the fact that you're checking in with somebody holds you accountable to a different degree.
Well,
this has been great,
Sarah.
Thank you so much again for joining me on writer Spark.
I really appreciate it and best of luck.
All right.
Thank you so much,
Melissa and for all of you writers out there,
(34:25):
keep writing.
That's exactly right.
Keep writing and don't worry about the beginning,
come back to it,
but jump into some middle of the action,
whatever that looks like next time we'll be talking about revision.
So stay tuned and I will see you then.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
(34:46):
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot riders spark academy dot com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there.
And I will see you next time until then.
(35:06):
Happy Writing.
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