October 25, 2023 • 59 mins
Episode 37
George Cramer spent years as a PI and Police Officer (turned writer), and many hours interviewing (not interrogating!) victims, suspects, and witnesses during investigations. Join me for this interesting conversation with George where he shares anecdotes, techniques, and tips for fiction writers.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Interrogate versus interview.
What do detectives do?
What do pis do and what do amateur sleuths do and what are some strategies and ways that these fictional characters should approach?
Talking with vic dumbs with suspects and even with the villain today,
that's what I'm talking about with George Kramer,
(00:22):
who is a former P I,
former law enforcement police officer and he has a lot to share about this topic.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
Welcome.
(00:42):
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had a dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(01:14):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom.
A daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina Town through writers Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner,
as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,
(01:37):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Writer Spark podcast.
Welcome.
Welcome,
George.
Thank you so much for being here.
Very excited to talk about investigative techniques,
(01:58):
interrogation techniques and really hopefully learn a lot from all of your experience.
I'd like to kind of launch into your background and as an investigative reporter and the breadth of what you've done there.
But then also what led you into writing?
Ready?
Ready said go,
(02:19):
like I mentioned,
I am a native Californian.
I was born and raised here um in the sixties people,
my men,
my age were getting drafted constantly and so myself along with a bunch of other 1000 guys went to college and got deferred while we were there.
(02:44):
Uh But you,
they never told us you had to actually study and get good grades.
So um my last year I lived at a beach house with four other guys,
all of all but one were going to school on deferments.
The other guy worked in a grocery store.
(03:06):
Uh Not once in the LA last year did I,
did I or anybody else that I know of do any homework.
Uh,
so,
yeah,
I got called up first,
uh,
three weeks after I got married and,
uh,
three of the other guys got called up but the guy who didn't go to school,
(03:28):
worked at a grocery store,
he never got drafted.
Uh,
there's the irony for you.
Right.
So,
I was scheduled to go on board a ship for two years and I don't know if they were lying or not,
but the guy who was processing my paperwork said,
yeah,
you're going on a destroyer.
You're headed for Vietnam.
(03:50):
Uh,
and I said,
well,
ah,
I just got married.
Is there any way I can stay here?
And he said,
well,
yeah,
you sign up for another year,
make it a three year enlistment.
So I signed up and got stationed at Nas Alameda,
which I loved.
(04:10):
Uh,
and if I'd been single I would have stayed in anyway.
Like I said,
Vietnam was going hot and heavy and,
um,
early in 1968 they called up hundreds of thous or I shouldn't say tens of thousands of reservists and sent them on active duty for a year.
(04:34):
And about the same time,
uh,
there were so few,
uh,
men available to be police officers.
The service is all offered a 90 day early out if you would become a cop here.
I am.
So,
uh,
I served two years,
nine months in one day and the next day I started at the San Leandro Police Department.
(05:00):
Uh,
and uh I loved it too.
Um,
but it was tough in a lot of different ways.
Uh I was there 16 years before I was retired uh medically for,
on the uh in the line of duty injuries.
Uh I spent between like six or more years working uh in vice and narcotics,
(05:24):
uh both as an investigator and then as the sergeant.
So,
and,
uh,
I learned to write police reports and I learned to write search warrants.
Uh,
and I,
when I retired I needed,
I needed a job because the retirement didn't pay that much.
(05:45):
And we had,
uh,
one child and another on the way.
So I,
uh,
reached out to a friend and I went to work for a credit card company as a fraud investigator.
Then I moved with another friend,
uh,
to bank fraud investigations.
And then,
uh,
I quit and went into partnership with an old friend,
(06:08):
uh,
doing insurance investigations as private investigators.
And I did that for off and on for probably 25 years.
Big business insurance.
And then a head hunter picked me up and dropped me at Palm.
You remember the Palm pilots?
Well,
I went over to Palm and we were the first to come out with smartphones but ours were nowhere near as good as apple and others.
(06:36):
But it was the best job I had for about seven years.
Then Hewlett Packard bought us up and for our patents and then they started laying off everybody.
As I recall,
there were about 1150 of us.
And,
uh,
every Monday or Tuesday I would get a print out because I was the head of security investigations of the people who are gonna be laid off the following week.
(07:04):
Uh,
so my people came up,
I sent them home that day.
Uh,
give another week,
two weeks later,
the list comes in and my name is like number one,
I got,
I got laid off.
I was 68.
I was in no mood to quit working.
I wanted a job.
I wanted to be,
(07:25):
but I didn't want to start up the P I firm again because that was really tough work.
Anyway,
I started sending out applications and getting no responses whatsoever and I began to learn about age discrimination.
I actually started a spreadsheet with 100 and 50 applications.
(07:46):
I sent out even the well to people that I had worked with before,
with people who got recommendations to hire me.
Nope,
I even had one guy come to me who was like 40.
That's why I got hired,
but he didn't know from Shinola and he asked me if I would write a set of policies and procedures for his company for free.
(08:11):
Yeah,
I,
I told my wife and she said,
if you do that,
I'm leaving you,
that's pretty good choice anyway.
So I started,
I figured I had to learn more about how to write and I had never in my life had any interest in writing because I've been writing reports for,
(08:32):
you know,
over 40 years.
So I took a little class that I thought would help my resume and it turned out it was fiction writing.
Within weeks I decided I was gonna retire.
I was not gonna get a job.
I was gonna become a novelist and that's a lot easier said than done.
(08:52):
Yeah.
Those 150 rejections from your job applications look like nothing,
right?
Like nothing.
Actually,
I did get one interview for a company that was young and strong and is really going well.
And I made,
I went through two outside interviews and then they sent me to the corporate office and I,
(09:15):
and I have to be interviewed by CEO believe it or not.
And his assistant.
And so I uh I,
I show up,
I'm in a three piece suit,
I'm nearly fit to go and I walk into the interview room and they're both wearing torn Levi's and raggedy ass t-shirts and stuff.
And they're probably at least 24 years old and they take one look at me in their eyes.
(09:42):
I know I'm wasting my time here because I decided to start writing.
I went back to community college and instead of being ad student,
like I had been avoiding the draft I was a straight,
a student in English classes.
And then I uh there's a uh author,
(10:03):
writer,
actor,
whatever uh Joy Harjo,
who I was enamored with uh because of her skill.
And I heard that she was gonna give a talk uh at the Institute of American Indian Arts uh in Santa Fe,
New Mexico.
So I,
I called and the following day I was accepted when they got my check and uh into the uh M FA program.
(10:30):
And I love that.
It was just a kick met a lot of wonderful people,
some great writers before that started,
one of the assignments was uh she passed out a bunch of photographs,
pictures and images and said,
I want you to take 15 minutes and describe the scene.
(10:50):
Well,
my picture was of two young girls leaning back,
looking up at the Mona Lisa and I did not do as assigned.
I just,
it was like an epiphany,
you know,
I have to write a book around and what do I know about writing in a woman from a woman's point of view,
(11:11):
historical,
you know,
literary.
Anyway,
eight years later,
uh I published the Mona Lisa Sisters.
Uh It,
when I went to uh IAAI,
a Institute of Marketing and Arts,
it was my uh thesis.
Uh So I had some great help from uh some pretty good authors and instructors.
(11:37):
He came back,
he did a bunch of revisions.
And uh after a bunch of rejections,
believe it or not.
Uh self published it through a small Indy press.
Uh And uh that's been about five years now.
You have a different series you're working on.
Yeah.
Now,
so then my next book was entitled Robbers and Cops.
(11:59):
Originally,
it was gonna be all about the wonderful George Kramer in his exploits.
About 30,000 words into it.
I was so bored.
I could hardly keep my eyes open.
Not a good thing.
So I went back and I thought I need a catalyst.
So I remembered uh early on arresting uh a professional,
(12:25):
longtime career bank Robber in the steps that we went through to do that.
And I thought now that'd be a good story,
but I've got to establish who these guys are.
So I went back to when uh the 19 twenties,
when they were youngsters,
it brought it all the way through the seventies uh with their adventures and the cops and stuff.
(12:50):
Uh It was a better book.
It uh sells a little bit and,
but,
oh,
well,
this is all going on.
I'm attending writing conferences.
You know how that is.
This is the only way this is the way you should write.
This is what works.
But I,
I there was a constant theme,
(13:11):
uh write a series,
write a series and you will start building your clientele and they'll buy your books and then they'll go back and buy your back list and what have you So I started uh the new Liberty series with Hector G Navarro and published the first book I'm working on the second book and I just went,
(13:39):
and I'm stop and I just went through word by word on paper and marking and making changes in uh 280 pages.
I've got about 1000 changes I have to make.
Wow,
that's,
yeah,
part of the writing process,
right.
And that brings me to the day.
(14:00):
OK.
Wow,
that's quite a journey.
You're a descendant of the Kar uh we originally spelled it Karok,
but the folks at the Bureau of Indian Affairs didn't like that.
So they changed it to Kar UK.
And that's now the official name.
And most people use that spelling.
There are a few people who refuse and spell it with an O and your character Navarro,
(14:28):
he is native American.
No,
he's a,
he's a Mexican.
Oh,
he's Latino.
OK.
I was,
that was my second.
My husband is Mexican American.
That was my second guess.
This guy.
His,
his parents are uh professors at Harvard and they're both uh Mexican.
(14:48):
Uh So he's like second generation,
oh,
wait,
first generation and just like my grandson who refuses to speak Spanish and he's half Mexican and he spends lots of time in Mexico and he,
he understands what he refuses to speak.
(15:08):
Well,
Hector here,
he doesn't know how to speak.
But I,
but I fixed that.
He gets a Latina girlfriend.
Really sharp gal and you know,
you know what men are always trying to do.
Well,
she tells him you're not gonna sleep over and nor will I sleep over until you ask me to marry you in Spanish?
(15:36):
Oh,
there you go.
Oh,
he learned Spanish real quick.
That's funny.
All right.
Well,
I'd like to jump into our conversation today,
which really is,
uh stems from your background in law enforcement and investigative techniques,
interrogation techniques and how we as writers can,
(15:59):
you know,
use your expertise,
what you have to share with us in our writing.
Uh I'm a mystery writer and I'm very interested in what you have to say.
So let's just launch into a few of my questions and then see where they take us.
Sound good.
OK.
All right.
So,
first of all,
um,
how,
(16:20):
how important is it for you?
And I,
and I'm saying this sort of broadly because we write detective fiction,
we write amateur sleuths.
I write amateur sleuth.
So,
you know,
the approach might be a little bit different in how you investigate or interrogate or,
you know,
make these inquiries depending on the profession.
(16:41):
But how important is it for you to establish a rapport with the person that you're trying to get information from?
I guess this is mostly applies to a professional detective or police officer because amateur would be a little bit different.
Well,
as a police officer,
a police detective or as a private investigator,
(17:04):
private detective,
in my opinion,
establishing report is the first and most important step in the in I say interview people say an interview that the cops interrogate.
I never,
I stopped interrogating people after about two years as a policeman,
(17:25):
then I started interviewing them which is uh takes it down a step in intensity.
Yeah.
Well,
the word interrogate has very specific connotations of this adversarial dynamic.
You know,
when I think of interrogation now,
I think of the gestapo during World War Two,
(17:46):
the first thing that comes to my mind and I want nothing to do with that.
So,
did you make that decision yourself or was that a decision of your department or your,
um,
you know,
your employment at that time when you made that shift,
sort of mentally?
Uh,
it,
it,
oh,
(18:06):
I can't even think of the bloody word and I'm a wordsmith but it evo it evolved uh from the time I was a police officer,
uh while I was a police officer,
it evolved and I,
and with an interview,
I had much greater success with going on and,
(18:27):
and getting confessions or admissions.
Uh,
and I,
the to,
I did try interrogation once as a,
uh,
a bank investigator and it,
I lost my,
uh cool uh this,
(18:47):
uh,
this guy who worked at a big,
big uh golf course down in the Monterey area,
uh influenced his girlfriend,
one of his many girlfriends to embezzle from the bank.
Uh and so with the help of auditors,
we looked into it and uh I had,
(19:09):
I interviewed her and got the confession and what have you?
And she was a single mom.
Uh this boyfriend was cheating on her,
but he,
once he got her to embezzle the first time she had to continue or he was gonna snitch her off.
So I went from there where I had a nice interview over to the golf course and they allowed me to interview him because I was investigating embezzlers.
(19:39):
Uh,
and we went in and I went straight to the hardcore interrogation and I,
I don't know if it showed,
but I had lost my temper and I'd lost my professionalism and he laughed at me and gave me,
uh a,
a verbal and a visible sign uh and walked out.
(20:05):
Hm.
So that was a big failure.
And that was the last time I tried to interrogate.
So when you went in to talk with him,
had you made a conscious decision that you were going to approach it that way or was it more the situation?
And the single mom that he roped into this?
And was it that that sort of led you to lose your cool or did you think?
(20:29):
Well,
here's a bad guy.
This is how I'm going to approach it.
Really?
I,
I stormed from the bank in downtown Monterey over to the golf course and I didn't think and I lost my,
actually,
let's be honest,
I lost my temper and you see it on TV,
(20:50):
all the time.
You lose your temper,
you've already lost.
Yeah.
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(21:55):
What do you think of the good guy,
bad guy thing that gets portrayed,
you know,
in,
in uh movies and television?
Do you,
have you ever kind of operated with that dynamic with somebody else?
And does that ever work?
No,
I never have uh I see it in the movies and I'm sure that 90% of the TV audience is like that.
(22:17):
That's the way it's always done.
And I'm sure that there are places where it's done.
I've,
I've seen it done a few times.
Uh But that's not my style besides that,
if I'm gonna sit down and interview,
I'm gonna be face to face like we are,
I don't want some interfering or jumping in though when I'm interviewing,
(22:41):
I'm really low key.
My mind is usually about half a dozen questions ahead and I,
I know that this is a progression where I hope to reach this point where the person either confesses slips up or makes the first step towards what I need.
So that's the important part then of establishing rapport is that you are leading them on this progression to get to the information that you want.
(23:10):
But before you can get there,
you have to sort of have these benign questions and these questions that aren't,
you know,
revealing anything,
those benign questions.
Uh some people uh in some classes will say like,
you know,
what's your favorite sport?
And then you talk,
you talk baseball for,
(23:31):
that's ridiculous,
in my opinion,
you know,
I want to know about them and how,
what makes them tick and how we can,
you know,
we become more and more alike,
not,
not comparing the,
the A's versus the San Francisco Giants.
So what kind of questions would you ask though?
(23:51):
I instead in lieu of,
you know,
what's your favorite baseball team and talking about that?
Well,
I always,
even though as a,
as a private investigator,
I,
I don't have to,
uh,
I basically admonish the people,
you know,
I want them to feel like they can trust me.
So I tell them,
you know,
I'm here investigating blah,
(24:11):
blah,
blah,
blah,
and I'm talking to a number of people.
Uh You're one of many,
uh and I wanna learn what,
learn from you,
what happened now,
I'm not a police officer so you don't have but you don't,
and you don't have to talk to me if you don't want to,
you know,
nothing's gonna happen to you if you say no,
(24:32):
I'd rather not talk to you or even if you want to get a lawyer,
that's fine.
So,
understanding that,
are you willing to chat?
I don't say talk or I say chat.
Are you willing to chat with me for a little while this morning?
And I say chat because it's,
it's a lower level in a little while.
(24:53):
So they don't think about that movie where the guy was interrogated for 12 hours.
And then,
uh,
how long have you?
I asked,
how long have you worked here was,
tell me about your job.
Uh,
and people like to talk about their job and what they do.
Uh,
and pretty soon,
(25:14):
uh,
and what about your job and this and that?
And we have a,
a back and forth and at some point I'll say,
well,
you know,
I need to ask you some questions about can,
can we do that now?
Sure.
They're talking,
they're relaxed.
They are not like this,
you know,
when they are like this.
Yeah.
(25:35):
And I,
I walk in the room sometimes instead of people,
you know,
this is supposedly a real sign of anxiety,
especially in Children and they're like that.
Well,
I wanna relax with their hands,
drop down.
So I worked there.
How often in your experiences have people actually said?
(25:56):
Well,
no,
I don't want to talk to you if I don't have to,
I don't want to talk to you and piggybacking on that in those situations were those people mostly guilty of whatever it was that you were trying to get at,
you know,
and they didn't want to talk or,
or the guilty,
very willing to talk as a cop.
I had,
you know,
more than a few say,
(26:16):
no,
I don't wanna talk to me.
A lawyer but as a private investigator,
I cannot remember a single incident where they didn't agree to talk to me,
even the guilty ones,
but even the guilty ones because most people have never met a real private investigator,
let alone talk to one.
And they're curious,
(26:37):
they're also curious,
the guilty ones.
They want to know how much I know.
So they're gonna try to interview me at the same time.
And so based on what they asked me,
I learned from that too.
Yeah,
that makes perfect sense that they want to try and figure out what the other,
(27:00):
what the authorities or,
you know,
you have.
Yeah.
Interesting.
I hadn't really thought of that.
My next question is about open ended versus close ended questions.
And I asked this because,
you know,
when we have five Children,
they're all grown now.
But when,
you know,
we would sit at the dinner table and talk about the day and you ask a question.
(27:20):
How was your day?
Oh,
good.
You know,
but if you say,
what did you do today?
You know,
that's an open ended question that forces a different kind of response.
So we quickly,
and we're both educators too,
but we quickly learn to use open ended questions that force the kids to actually engage a little bit more than these.
Yes or no.
So how did you,
(27:41):
uh I guess,
do you obviously approach interviews more with open ended questions?
And um you know,
what is your questioning strategy?
Like,
I guess,
well,
I try to maybe only one closed in question uh because the open ended,
(28:01):
that's what's gonna make the story.
I mean,
if I ask you,
Melissa,
did you kill your husband?
You're gonna say probably no.
And that's the end of it,
you know,
but if I,
you know,
it's like more open ended,
you know,
(28:21):
we're here today.
We,
we're talking about what happened to your husband.
Uh Can you help me figure that out?
So that's your close ended question.
Yes.
Yes.
I'll help you figure that out.
Yeah.
You know,
so then we start talking about it and then,
and then sometimes I'll ask an open ended question and there,
(28:44):
there's a long pause and I,
if that happens,
I'm in hog heaven because I just sit back,
relax because you are already with.
Hm.
No one can sit quiet in that type of an,
uh,
interview in an interview like that.
(29:04):
Or probably most,
any situation where there's interaction without finally breaking the ice.
Yeah,
I use that actually in my,
uh,
mysteries where the sleuth,
all of mine are amateur sleuth.
I have one private investigator.
Um,
but they use that silence,
you know,
(29:25):
keeping quiet because inevitably the other person's going to start talking and fill that silence.
It's just sort of human nature.
Are you ever tempted to break that silence?
Did you have to teach yourself not to break that silence yourself?
Actually,
there's an acquaintance of mine.
He has a phd in threat assessment and in,
(29:46):
uh,
protection.
And I was taking one of his classes and he talked about how on this one case he decided he wasn't going to speak.
So he went in and he,
for an hour,
he just,
(30:07):
and the guy would talk and then he start the only thing he ever says.
Hm.
And he said it last an hour and the guy confessed and I never,
I never asked the question.
Wow.
Interesting.
Not just that pressure,
pressure cook.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean,
(30:28):
look at first dates,
you,
you know,
you're sitting across from the table and you have no idea what to say generally.
Um,
especially the guy.
Why is that?
Why?
Especially the guy?
Well,
because I'm a guy and I can remember,
(30:49):
we,
all,
my wife still still says,
you know,
you always try to get me to do all the talking.
Well,
as a somewhat of an introvert,
I just naturally use that tactic too,
right?
Ask questions.
So I don't have to talk because for me that's a lot easier.
(31:10):
So what are uh ways that you personally and,
or writers can instill into their detectives ways to detect uh your interviewee being deceptive?
You know,
how are there,
are there cues,
are there tricks,
are there ways that you can sort of psychologically detect?
(31:31):
Oh,
they're telling they're lying,
you know.
Yes.
Uh There's a world-famous school out of Chicago that teaches interviewing and interrogation techniques and they spend a great deal of time on your,
on the body movements,
like,
see how my arms are crossed.
(31:53):
That is quote unquote,
a sign of pushing away and being deceptive.
Well,
you can't accept that because that's what I do when I'm talking to anybody.
So I look for things like the cross farms.
But I also look at like if I'm thinking and telling the truth,
I'm usually like this,
(32:15):
if I'm lying,
I'm off to the left.
Uh And it's funny when I first heard that I didn't believe it but more often than not it is.
But you put that in.
That's true for most people that they look to the left when their line and to the right or they have just ad,
you know,
one way or the other experience,
(32:38):
more people telling the truth,
look off to the right and up because they're trying to get the right answer,
the ones on the left,
you know,
and,
but remember that's just one thing and it might be completely false because what if I'm the one guy who crosses his arms and always looks to the left,
(32:59):
you know,
so you got to look at other things.
Um I'm gonna push away.
I wanna get a distance from you because i it's easier for me to not be truthful if we're not up in each other's space.
Uh,
oh,
there's a term they don't do this anymore,
(33:20):
but we used to sit at the table and then I would sit at the end of the little interview table and I would come around and get closer and closer until it was basically,
you know,
like that.
And,
uh they describe what it was called,
a level of a high intensity when your legs overlapped,
(33:40):
your legs were between the interviewees,
uh uh legs and back then it didn't matter if it was a man or a woman.
My God,
if you did that today,
especially with someone of the opposite sex,
you'd probably get fired.
But it's harder for you to lie when we're really into each other.
(34:04):
And there are other little things,
you know,
they,
they twist,
they look away,
they look down,
one of the things they talk about is they cover their mouths because they know what's coming out is a lie and they don't really want it to come out.
Uh,
and that,
that helps.
But again,
I can't stress enough that these are all traits that might not be.
(34:30):
But if you start adding them up and they can't look you in the face and you know,
some of the things they're saying are not true.
You start forming an opinion that this person is being deceitful.
Now,
are they being deceitful about the crime you're investigating?
Are they being deceitful because there's something else or some embarrassing thing that happened?
(34:55):
So you have to leave those alternatives always open.
In fact,
that's one of my favorite words,
alternatives,
you always have to consider.
What are the alternatives?
I had?
I had one where uh I knew that this teller had embezzled $100.
And I kept uh you know,
(35:16):
I asked her,
you,
you do,
you,
you stole the $100 and her answers were,
and her movements were so truthful when she denied stealing $100.
And finally,
she says Mr Kramer,
I didn't steal $100.
I stole $200.
(35:39):
Did she,
did she,
you break her down or did she finally just say this is,
well,
I,
I had her pretty well broken down but she was getting frustrated with me that I was not paying attention to what she was saying.
That's so funny.
How do you adapt your questioning or um modify your questioning based on different types of people that you're interviewing?
(36:10):
So say you're interviewing a child or um a woman versus a man or somebody with a DH D or some other,
you know,
autistic or you know,
whatever the situations are,
how do you just adjust on the fly?
Do you go in knowing that you have to approach it differently?
Especially with a child,
for example.
And now as you mentioned,
(36:30):
with a woman,
if you're a male investigator,
that's a whole different dynamic at this time.
As a writer,
you have to establish in your writing and in your mind when this interview is taking place,
is it taking place in 1960 or is it taking place in 2023?
(36:55):
Right?
I mean,
good point.
Yeah.
Or even farther back because the rules are really changed in 68 or nine.
I interviewed a 16 year old boy who was a car thief and he just adamantly denied it.
I kept him for two hours in a tiny little room,
(37:17):
interviewing him alone,
no parent,
no lawyer until he finally confessed and it was perfectly legit.
It was,
that's the way it was if I did that today.
Well,
first I,
you have to have a,
an adult,
you know,
or a lawyer.
(37:38):
So,
you know,
the rules change.
Uh And I'm in my current book,
I'm trying to do interviews directed towards gathering information,
but I do have some,
oh,
I hate this word interrogation type interviews.
Do you?
Is there a particular TV show that you think the either detective or police officer or P I does interviews particularly well and authentically,
(38:09):
I should say none of the American programs.
The British are much better at it,
uh,
in their shows and they tend to follow the law pretty straight.
Now,
back some decades,
the British police started a program,
(38:30):
they called Peace pe E ac.
It stood for something but it ensured the rights of the person being interviewed and laid down and established how the interviews would be conducted.
That's a common thread throughout most of the,
uh,
British detective shows I watch and there's a lot of them a,
(38:51):
a plug for Brit Box.
I would rather watch Brit Box and the detective shows on there.
Investigators and they're,
they're more human.
There are very few,
uh,
slamming the table in interrogations.
Uh Blue Bloods is one of my favorite TV shows,
but it is so full of bullshit.
(39:12):
Excuse me?
It is,
it is so untrue.
I imagine most of them are.
I love the closer.
Did you ever watch that?
Oh,
she was great.
Yes,
I loved her.
And now she always seemed to break them down and use different techniques for different people that she was interviewing rather than interrogating.
(39:36):
But there were a couple of times when she lost her cool that they played good cop,
bad cop.
And,
yeah,
I always felt that seemed fairly authentic,
but who knows?
Well,
in some ways it's closer than,
than a lot of others.
It's like my absolute favorite is Harry Bosch.
Oh,
yeah.
(39:56):
Yeah.
Connolly books and all that.
In fact,
I always quote something from,
uh,
Harry Bosch in my detective.
Oh,
fun.
We started watching Unforgotten,
which is on acorn.
Have you watched that one?
It's British.
Um,
and they investigate cold cases.
(40:17):
It's very good.
Highly recommend anybody listening.
So,
uh,
what are some pitfalls that you can share with our listeners?
Um,
you know,
as they're writing these detectives or these pis or these amateur sleuths,
what are some pitfalls that they should really be aware of and try to stay away from or not include in how they write an interrogation or an interview scene when they're trying to glean information from whoever they're talking with.
(40:45):
Well,
again,
it depends on the,
the,
the,
uh,
what years they're writing about,
but if it's like today in modern times,
um,
the victim's rights are subordinate to the suspect's rights in some ways.
So,
uh,
when you're working with that suspect,
(41:07):
you have to,
you have to push all the movies and TV,
shows aside uh because it could get you in trouble because you skip the,
the different steps,
you know,
and when you do the interviews,
uh I stay away from interrogations again in my books,
(41:29):
I interview people.
Now you have to,
the biggest problem with that is interviews can go on for hours,
but you only have basically one,
maybe a page and a half to do your interview.
So it's very difficult.
Uh But you could mention,
you know,
you spend an hour,
(41:49):
you spend a half hour chatting and getting to know each other.
And now,
you know,
listen,
now,
listen,
we've been talking for the last hour just chatting.
Is that,
is that correct?
Yes.
Ok.
Now,
can we get into and that's one short,
one sentence.
So you've taken an hour or a page down to this to a short paragraph,
(42:14):
we need to talk about this and of course,
you don't ask all the questions.
Uh but you,
you know,
you ask a few questions,
skip some time and,
and move on and you treat the people as people.
I could,
I use the word folks all the time how,
you know,
that's what we need to talk folks.
Uh But then again,
(42:35):
I'm,
I'm really trying to be low key.
I always remember what happened in Monterey and I,
well,
I don't go out in the field anymore,
but I would never,
I never allow that to happen again.
So,
um you mentioned,
you know,
you can't skip over the steps in terms of,
you know,
what you're allowed to do or how you're allowed basically to approach an interview.
(43:00):
So,
are there,
you know,
formal steps that you must follow when you're interviewing obviously as a detective when you're,
if you have to give the Miranda rights or things like that,
that might be different than just api or especially an amateur sleuth.
But what are those,
you know,
so first you want to establish a report?
But that's not an actual,
(43:21):
like,
determined step.
That must be done.
That's an approach.
Right.
Well,
just as the police can lie,
the private investigator can lie but has actually,
has more obstacles to overcome than the cop if he lies.
So I try not to lie.
(43:42):
Well,
why is that,
what are those obstacles because they're gonna rip you apart in court and is frowned upon,
you know,
there's no written laws as you can't.
You ha you are forbidden from ever lying to the guy.
You know,
I won't say I haven't lied but I,
you know,
minimum.
But what I would be more likely to do is give a,
(44:05):
what if,
question?
Hey,
Bill,
we've been talking about this for an hour now and you tell me you were never in that house.
What if I told you that we have prints from the,
uh,
the handle in the bathroom,
your prints?
Oh,
if he's been in the house,
(44:26):
did I go to the bathroom or just,
but you're also taking a risk.
What if I told you we got your prints inside the house and the guy knows he was never inside the house.
So you have to be careful and you have to think about the risk that's involved.
So going back to the closer for a second,
(44:47):
I seem to recall an episode a moment when she says something to the effect of,
she never asks a question that she doesn't really know the answer to,
which is obviously,
you know,
you can't always know the answer.
That's a point of interviewing that you're supposed to try.
You're trying to get information that you don't necessarily have.
So would you put yourself in that position where you proposed a what if that you actually didn't know the answer to knowing that it could completely backfire?
(45:16):
Yes,
I would ask those questions where she said you never ask a question unless you know the answer.
That's kind of a lawyer uh asking,
but I'm asking the questions to get answers to find out and get information that I didn't have before and not,
(45:36):
and not all of my interviews are of the suspect,
there's witnesses or passerbys,
there's the victim,
you know,
so you have to ask questions in my opinion,
you don't know the answer to it.
Like who robbed you?
I don't know the answer to that.
I'm here to get as much as I can.
(45:58):
Well,
the,
the can you describe them?
Boom,
boom,
boom,
boom.
That's a,
that's the first question for a victim or a witness.
Can you describe this person?
Well,
I don't know what they look like because I wasn't there.
So that's a question.
I don't know the answer to.
Now.
I can't think.
What was her name of the closer?
Um Brenda Lee Johnson.
(46:21):
Yeah.
Brenda Lee.
Brenda Lee is 99% of the time interviewing somebody that she already knows is guilty.
Right?
Well,
a different situation because they are a different kind of a unit.
So,
yeah,
that's true.
Ok.
So going back to pitfalls.
So um you know,
telling how much veracity you're exhibiting during the interview,
(46:45):
not lying,
too much.
What else would be a pitfall that writers should look out for a pitfall in,
in writing is saying you're doing something as fact that is contrary to what really is in the world.
That's why some of us create fictitional cities.
(47:06):
So we don't have to worry about it.
Now,
in robbers and cops I had and this could be a pitfall.
I had them do an armed robbery in Sacramento in 19,
I don't know,
39 and they got there to the foreign state at a hotel.
Well,
I could,
I could have made up a hotel but I researched and got the name of the right hotel early on in uh Robbers,
(47:33):
I asked my wife to read my partial manuscript and she brought it back.
It said anybody but he says is gonna complain.
Call you a fool.
Why I had a person in San Mateo starting his day off every day by reading Oakland Tribune in the San Francisco Chronicle.
(47:56):
Well,
everybody got the chronicle.
But why would a guy over in San Mateo be reading an Oakland newspaper instead of a San Mateo paper?
It took me three hours to find the name of the right newspaper for that period of time.
So that's a pitfall.
If you're using real locations or real things,
(48:17):
you have to make sure you use them properly.
Yeah,
definitely.
I wrote um I have a series set in Sacramento also,
but contemporary and we used to live there and I have a scene in the first book where she go,
my character goes to the a marina on the garden highway and there's one review way back,
(48:40):
you know,
early days that says something to the effect of that's not there.
Da da da.
It's not,
you know,
that way.
I'm and I'm thinking,
yes,
it is.
I went there,
I research,
you know,
so even if you do the,
the work,
the legwork,
the research,
there's still going to be people that try and call you out or don't believe you or see it a different way.
Fictional towns are much easier.
(49:00):
Yes.
So,
ok,
so pitfalls for interrogation or interviewing is to,
you know,
keep to the truth as much as possible.
To not create a situation where you're dragged into court and that's a problem for the prosecution.
Might anything else in terms of how you approach an interrogation or an interview,
(49:20):
I guess,
as a professional,
uh,
law enforcement,
as api,
and then maybe as an amateur,
as a,
as a police officer,
the statutes have pretty much changed and I can only speak for a couple of local police agencies.
It may be different in a different county or different state.
(49:42):
In fact,
I know it's different,
you know,
states.
Uh,
but like in,
in this county,
when they do the interviews,
they often have two people present so that there's a witness.
Uh,
but they understand that the witness is gonna keep their mouth shut.
(50:04):
It's video being videotaped and recorded and they have to admonish and tell everybody for the private investigator.
Interviews are conducted wherever you are usually in a home or an office.
If it's in a home,
you have to think about where the interview is being conducted.
(50:26):
I recommend the kitchen table because you can sit at one end and the other person can sit at the other end or cross.
Uh,
uh,
and especially if it's a female.
Uh,
hopefully there's somebody else there and you,
if you do it in the living room and you sit on the couch and they sit on an easy chair,
(50:51):
you sink down,
you're not comfortable,
it's hard to write.
And what if that woman gets up and walks over and sits down next to you.
I'm running out the door.
You know,
now,
um,
and for the Amma amateur sleuth,
I think about the ladies in the sewing circle who solve crimes,
(51:15):
they get their information.
They talk,
they're not gonna,
they're not gonna get me or anybody else to sit down for interview,
a formal interview.
Uh,
so they have to think about how they get their information and I'm reading something by Jim Malay.
Probably didn't pronounce her name.
(51:35):
Right.
But she's,
uh,
lives here but she's British and she's writing,
uh,
uh,
who done it in,
uh,
England at Oxford.
And there's a very important witness and they coincidentally sit at the same table for lunch,
which is,
which is done in England.
(51:55):
Not here because they don't have a whole lot of tables,
shared tables.
Right.
Yeah.
And so engages in a conversation,
brings out things,
talks,
saying,
exchange information.
He's probably a high end amateur because he used to be an MI-5.
Now.
He's a priest.
(52:16):
But,
you know,
that would be one way,
you know,
hey,
let's go to coffee.
Whatever happened,
happened to coincidentally end up in the same line at the grocery store.
Yeah.
What about recording interviews?
Especially as api,
I know you have to be aware of one party versus two party states.
(52:38):
But did you ever use recording as API when you were working?
Yes.
And even when I was working in other States or other countries?
I would and I would,
I never hi the recorder or did a surreptitious recording.
And I always tell him,
do you mind,
you know,
when I'm talking about blah,
blah,
blah,
(52:58):
well,
we're gonna do the interview.
Now,
do you mind if I record this?
And sometimes it ask why?
Well,
because sometimes we get our,
we get mixed up when we're writing our notes or whatever we want,
whoever has to listen to this or if we transcribe it,
know exactly what you said.
So nobody twisted your words,
(53:20):
that kind of explanation.
Uh I had a uh a theft case of pretty good dollar amount and the suspect was homeless in Sacramento and it took me weeks to find him and he agreed to uh on the street.
Oh,
did he stink to,
to give me a statement?
And I asked the recording and turn the recording on blah,
(53:42):
blah,
blah,
blah,
blah.
We do the interview,
say goodbye to the guy,
get in my car and start playing it back and the batteries were dead and I had no recording and I couldn't find him if you're gonna record,
make sure your equipment is working right now.
It's so much easier.
I imagine with the um the iphone or you know,
(54:04):
your smartphone,
you don't have to have a separate device necessarily.
So you've shared a ton of anecdotes,
which is great.
Is there a particular story that you feel the interview went extraordinarily well,
that you can tell it,
walk us through or conversely,
one that was just a complete flop aside from the one where you lost your temper.
(54:25):
Well,
you know,
actually I'd like to uh share a story where I paid attention to all of his movements and actions and stuff.
Uh It was for a uh large lumber company and the,
they had some videotape here and there and what have you.
But all of the,
(54:46):
the evidence and stuff pointed to this one guy as the only person possible to have committed this crime.
So they hired me and I went up to the where the up northern California and I spent a week there doing witnessing interviews and interviewing him and I interviewed him might have been three times and he just denied,
(55:13):
denied,
denied.
But all of his body movements,
all of his responses were indicative of an honest truth telling person.
It was uh you know,
and just the night and I,
and he had a good story for everything.
In fact,
that's one place where we usually,
(55:34):
we get him to tell the truth.
It's always the same story.
If you're a liar,
your story changes,
you know,
you just a little bit.
His story never changed.
Uh And so when I wrapped up,
II I told the uh player,
I said,
I'm sure he did it but you know,
he hasn't confessed.
(55:55):
I can't prove he did it.
I suggest you call the police and have them give him a polygraph because private people can't do Polygraphs here anymore.
But the police and he failed the polygraph and confess within like 30 minutes.
So what made you so sure that he did it given that you couldn't prove,
(56:18):
like,
what,
what evidence did you discover that made you quite sure.
Even though he seemed so truthful,
this offense occurred in like two or three in the morning.
Somebody unlocked uh uh uh a gate to get in,
they unlocked an office and these things were recorded.
(56:39):
They didn't record him,
unlocking the office or unlocking the gate.
But he was the only one who had access to all of the things that occurred.
And I can't remember what they were.
But let's say there,
there were five things,
you know,
he had access to this,
this,
this,
(56:59):
this and this.
No one else had access to more than four of those things.
Somebody had three,
somebody,
he's the only one that had access to all five.
I remember exactly.
But there was video of his,
of his car leaving at like four in the morning.
You know,
he did it.
(57:20):
Mhm.
That's the biggest failure.
One of my bigger successes was uh for a chain of department stores.
I did their internal theft cases and they had a manager that they suspected of,
of embezzling money and I interviewed a couple of witnesses and it all kind of pointed towards him So I sat down with him,
(57:47):
he started off with good reflections or actions that slowly got worse,
but he denied,
denied,
denied.
So the more pressure he felt,
the more he withdrew physically showing some of those signs.
Ok.
So after about three hours,
(58:07):
I finally said whatever his name was,
you know,
Bill,
you're a good guy.
I would probably want to go to a ball game with you and you're well liked here.
I said,
but you know,
and I know you did this.
Yeah.
(58:27):
Yes.
And he drops his head.
Well,
it turns out he was a heroin addict and he was supporting his habit.
Nobody knew he was a drug addict.
But yeah,
that was a good success.
And that was the,
that's really cool.
Everything that you've done.
I've had some fun.
Yes.
All right.
(58:47):
Well,
again,
it was really,
really nice meeting you and talking with you and thank you for sharing your expertise about interrogation and,
or interview techniques.
I think it's been fascinating.
I've definitely learned a lot.
Well,
thank you very much for having me.
It's been a ball.
Yeah,
thanks.
I appreciate your time.
(59:08):
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot writer spark academy dot com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then happy writing.
Interrogate versus interview.
What do detectives do?
What do pis do and what do amateur sleuths do and what are some strategies and ways that these fictional characters should approach?
Talking with vic dumbs with suspects and even with the villain today,
that's what I'm talking about with George Kramer,
(00:22):
who is a former P I,
former law enforcement police officer and he has a lot to share about this topic.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
Welcome.
(00:42):
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had a dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(01:14):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom.
A daughter,
a teacher living in a small North Carolina Town through writers Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner,
as you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,
(01:37):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Writer Spark podcast.
Welcome.
Welcome,
George.
Thank you so much for being here.
Very excited to talk about investigative techniques,
(01:58):
interrogation techniques and really hopefully learn a lot from all of your experience.
I'd like to kind of launch into your background and as an investigative reporter and the breadth of what you've done there.
But then also what led you into writing?
Ready?
Ready said go,
(02:19):
like I mentioned,
I am a native Californian.
I was born and raised here um in the sixties people,
my men,
my age were getting drafted constantly and so myself along with a bunch of other 1000 guys went to college and got deferred while we were there.
(02:44):
Uh But you,
they never told us you had to actually study and get good grades.
So um my last year I lived at a beach house with four other guys,
all of all but one were going to school on deferments.
The other guy worked in a grocery store.
(03:06):
Uh Not once in the LA last year did I,
did I or anybody else that I know of do any homework.
Uh,
so,
yeah,
I got called up first,
uh,
three weeks after I got married and,
uh,
three of the other guys got called up but the guy who didn't go to school,
(03:28):
worked at a grocery store,
he never got drafted.
Uh,
there's the irony for you.
Right.
So,
I was scheduled to go on board a ship for two years and I don't know if they were lying or not,
but the guy who was processing my paperwork said,
yeah,
you're going on a destroyer.
You're headed for Vietnam.
(03:50):
Uh,
and I said,
well,
ah,
I just got married.
Is there any way I can stay here?
And he said,
well,
yeah,
you sign up for another year,
make it a three year enlistment.
So I signed up and got stationed at Nas Alameda,
which I loved.
(04:10):
Uh,
and if I'd been single I would have stayed in anyway.
Like I said,
Vietnam was going hot and heavy and,
um,
early in 1968 they called up hundreds of thous or I shouldn't say tens of thousands of reservists and sent them on active duty for a year.
(04:34):
And about the same time,
uh,
there were so few,
uh,
men available to be police officers.
The service is all offered a 90 day early out if you would become a cop here.
I am.
So,
uh,
I served two years,
nine months in one day and the next day I started at the San Leandro Police Department.
(05:00):
Uh,
and uh I loved it too.
Um,
but it was tough in a lot of different ways.
Uh I was there 16 years before I was retired uh medically for,
on the uh in the line of duty injuries.
Uh I spent between like six or more years working uh in vice and narcotics,
(05:24):
uh both as an investigator and then as the sergeant.
So,
and,
uh,
I learned to write police reports and I learned to write search warrants.
Uh,
and I,
when I retired I needed,
I needed a job because the retirement didn't pay that much.
(05:45):
And we had,
uh,
one child and another on the way.
So I,
uh,
reached out to a friend and I went to work for a credit card company as a fraud investigator.
Then I moved with another friend,
uh,
to bank fraud investigations.
And then,
uh,
I quit and went into partnership with an old friend,
(06:08):
uh,
doing insurance investigations as private investigators.
And I did that for off and on for probably 25 years.
Big business insurance.
And then a head hunter picked me up and dropped me at Palm.
You remember the Palm pilots?
Well,
I went over to Palm and we were the first to come out with smartphones but ours were nowhere near as good as apple and others.
(06:36):
But it was the best job I had for about seven years.
Then Hewlett Packard bought us up and for our patents and then they started laying off everybody.
As I recall,
there were about 1150 of us.
And,
uh,
every Monday or Tuesday I would get a print out because I was the head of security investigations of the people who are gonna be laid off the following week.
(07:04):
Uh,
so my people came up,
I sent them home that day.
Uh,
give another week,
two weeks later,
the list comes in and my name is like number one,
I got,
I got laid off.
I was 68.
I was in no mood to quit working.
I wanted a job.
I wanted to be,
(07:25):
but I didn't want to start up the P I firm again because that was really tough work.
Anyway,
I started sending out applications and getting no responses whatsoever and I began to learn about age discrimination.
I actually started a spreadsheet with 100 and 50 applications.
(07:46):
I sent out even the well to people that I had worked with before,
with people who got recommendations to hire me.
Nope,
I even had one guy come to me who was like 40.
That's why I got hired,
but he didn't know from Shinola and he asked me if I would write a set of policies and procedures for his company for free.
(08:11):
Yeah,
I,
I told my wife and she said,
if you do that,
I'm leaving you,
that's pretty good choice anyway.
So I started,
I figured I had to learn more about how to write and I had never in my life had any interest in writing because I've been writing reports for,
(08:32):
you know,
over 40 years.
So I took a little class that I thought would help my resume and it turned out it was fiction writing.
Within weeks I decided I was gonna retire.
I was not gonna get a job.
I was gonna become a novelist and that's a lot easier said than done.
(08:52):
Yeah.
Those 150 rejections from your job applications look like nothing,
right?
Like nothing.
Actually,
I did get one interview for a company that was young and strong and is really going well.
And I made,
I went through two outside interviews and then they sent me to the corporate office and I,
(09:15):
and I have to be interviewed by CEO believe it or not.
And his assistant.
And so I uh I,
I show up,
I'm in a three piece suit,
I'm nearly fit to go and I walk into the interview room and they're both wearing torn Levi's and raggedy ass t-shirts and stuff.
And they're probably at least 24 years old and they take one look at me in their eyes.
(09:42):
I know I'm wasting my time here because I decided to start writing.
I went back to community college and instead of being ad student,
like I had been avoiding the draft I was a straight,
a student in English classes.
And then I uh there's a uh author,
(10:03):
writer,
actor,
whatever uh Joy Harjo,
who I was enamored with uh because of her skill.
And I heard that she was gonna give a talk uh at the Institute of American Indian Arts uh in Santa Fe,
New Mexico.
So I,
I called and the following day I was accepted when they got my check and uh into the uh M FA program.
(10:30):
And I love that.
It was just a kick met a lot of wonderful people,
some great writers before that started,
one of the assignments was uh she passed out a bunch of photographs,
pictures and images and said,
I want you to take 15 minutes and describe the scene.
(10:50):
Well,
my picture was of two young girls leaning back,
looking up at the Mona Lisa and I did not do as assigned.
I just,
it was like an epiphany,
you know,
I have to write a book around and what do I know about writing in a woman from a woman's point of view,
(11:11):
historical,
you know,
literary.
Anyway,
eight years later,
uh I published the Mona Lisa Sisters.
Uh It,
when I went to uh IAAI,
a Institute of Marketing and Arts,
it was my uh thesis.
Uh So I had some great help from uh some pretty good authors and instructors.
(11:37):
He came back,
he did a bunch of revisions.
And uh after a bunch of rejections,
believe it or not.
Uh self published it through a small Indy press.
Uh And uh that's been about five years now.
You have a different series you're working on.
Yeah.
Now,
so then my next book was entitled Robbers and Cops.
(11:59):
Originally,
it was gonna be all about the wonderful George Kramer in his exploits.
About 30,000 words into it.
I was so bored.
I could hardly keep my eyes open.
Not a good thing.
So I went back and I thought I need a catalyst.
So I remembered uh early on arresting uh a professional,
(12:25):
longtime career bank Robber in the steps that we went through to do that.
And I thought now that'd be a good story,
but I've got to establish who these guys are.
So I went back to when uh the 19 twenties,
when they were youngsters,
it brought it all the way through the seventies uh with their adventures and the cops and stuff.
(12:50):
Uh It was a better book.
It uh sells a little bit and,
but,
oh,
well,
this is all going on.
I'm attending writing conferences.
You know how that is.
This is the only way this is the way you should write.
This is what works.
But I,
I there was a constant theme,
(13:11):
uh write a series,
write a series and you will start building your clientele and they'll buy your books and then they'll go back and buy your back list and what have you So I started uh the new Liberty series with Hector G Navarro and published the first book I'm working on the second book and I just went,
(13:39):
and I'm stop and I just went through word by word on paper and marking and making changes in uh 280 pages.
I've got about 1000 changes I have to make.
Wow,
that's,
yeah,
part of the writing process,
right.
And that brings me to the day.
(14:00):
OK.
Wow,
that's quite a journey.
You're a descendant of the Kar uh we originally spelled it Karok,
but the folks at the Bureau of Indian Affairs didn't like that.
So they changed it to Kar UK.
And that's now the official name.
And most people use that spelling.
There are a few people who refuse and spell it with an O and your character Navarro,
(14:28):
he is native American.
No,
he's a,
he's a Mexican.
Oh,
he's Latino.
OK.
I was,
that was my second.
My husband is Mexican American.
That was my second guess.
This guy.
His,
his parents are uh professors at Harvard and they're both uh Mexican.
(14:48):
Uh So he's like second generation,
oh,
wait,
first generation and just like my grandson who refuses to speak Spanish and he's half Mexican and he spends lots of time in Mexico and he,
he understands what he refuses to speak.
(15:08):
Well,
Hector here,
he doesn't know how to speak.
But I,
but I fixed that.
He gets a Latina girlfriend.
Really sharp gal and you know,
you know what men are always trying to do.
Well,
she tells him you're not gonna sleep over and nor will I sleep over until you ask me to marry you in Spanish?
(15:36):
Oh,
there you go.
Oh,
he learned Spanish real quick.
That's funny.
All right.
Well,
I'd like to jump into our conversation today,
which really is,
uh stems from your background in law enforcement and investigative techniques,
interrogation techniques and how we as writers can,
(15:59):
you know,
use your expertise,
what you have to share with us in our writing.
Uh I'm a mystery writer and I'm very interested in what you have to say.
So let's just launch into a few of my questions and then see where they take us.
Sound good.
OK.
All right.
So,
first of all,
um,
how,
(16:20):
how important is it for you?
And I,
and I'm saying this sort of broadly because we write detective fiction,
we write amateur sleuths.
I write amateur sleuth.
So,
you know,
the approach might be a little bit different in how you investigate or interrogate or,
you know,
make these inquiries depending on the profession.
(16:41):
But how important is it for you to establish a rapport with the person that you're trying to get information from?
I guess this is mostly applies to a professional detective or police officer because amateur would be a little bit different.
Well,
as a police officer,
a police detective or as a private investigator,
(17:04):
private detective,
in my opinion,
establishing report is the first and most important step in the in I say interview people say an interview that the cops interrogate.
I never,
I stopped interrogating people after about two years as a policeman,
(17:25):
then I started interviewing them which is uh takes it down a step in intensity.
Yeah.
Well,
the word interrogate has very specific connotations of this adversarial dynamic.
You know,
when I think of interrogation now,
I think of the gestapo during World War Two,
(17:46):
the first thing that comes to my mind and I want nothing to do with that.
So,
did you make that decision yourself or was that a decision of your department or your,
um,
you know,
your employment at that time when you made that shift,
sort of mentally?
Uh,
it,
it,
oh,
(18:06):
I can't even think of the bloody word and I'm a wordsmith but it evo it evolved uh from the time I was a police officer,
uh while I was a police officer,
it evolved and I,
and with an interview,
I had much greater success with going on and,
(18:27):
and getting confessions or admissions.
Uh,
and I,
the to,
I did try interrogation once as a,
uh,
a bank investigator and it,
I lost my,
uh cool uh this,
(18:47):
uh,
this guy who worked at a big,
big uh golf course down in the Monterey area,
uh influenced his girlfriend,
one of his many girlfriends to embezzle from the bank.
Uh and so with the help of auditors,
we looked into it and uh I had,
(19:09):
I interviewed her and got the confession and what have you?
And she was a single mom.
Uh this boyfriend was cheating on her,
but he,
once he got her to embezzle the first time she had to continue or he was gonna snitch her off.
So I went from there where I had a nice interview over to the golf course and they allowed me to interview him because I was investigating embezzlers.
(19:39):
Uh,
and we went in and I went straight to the hardcore interrogation and I,
I don't know if it showed,
but I had lost my temper and I'd lost my professionalism and he laughed at me and gave me,
uh a,
a verbal and a visible sign uh and walked out.
(20:05):
Hm.
So that was a big failure.
And that was the last time I tried to interrogate.
So when you went in to talk with him,
had you made a conscious decision that you were going to approach it that way or was it more the situation?
And the single mom that he roped into this?
And was it that that sort of led you to lose your cool or did you think?
(20:29):
Well,
here's a bad guy.
This is how I'm going to approach it.
Really?
I,
I stormed from the bank in downtown Monterey over to the golf course and I didn't think and I lost my,
actually,
let's be honest,
I lost my temper and you see it on TV,
(20:50):
all the time.
You lose your temper,
you've already lost.
Yeah.
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(21:55):
What do you think of the good guy,
bad guy thing that gets portrayed,
you know,
in,
in uh movies and television?
Do you,
have you ever kind of operated with that dynamic with somebody else?
And does that ever work?
No,
I never have uh I see it in the movies and I'm sure that 90% of the TV audience is like that.
(22:17):
That's the way it's always done.
And I'm sure that there are places where it's done.
I've,
I've seen it done a few times.
Uh But that's not my style besides that,
if I'm gonna sit down and interview,
I'm gonna be face to face like we are,
I don't want some interfering or jumping in though when I'm interviewing,
(22:41):
I'm really low key.
My mind is usually about half a dozen questions ahead and I,
I know that this is a progression where I hope to reach this point where the person either confesses slips up or makes the first step towards what I need.
So that's the important part then of establishing rapport is that you are leading them on this progression to get to the information that you want.
(23:10):
But before you can get there,
you have to sort of have these benign questions and these questions that aren't,
you know,
revealing anything,
those benign questions.
Uh some people uh in some classes will say like,
you know,
what's your favorite sport?
And then you talk,
you talk baseball for,
(23:31):
that's ridiculous,
in my opinion,
you know,
I want to know about them and how,
what makes them tick and how we can,
you know,
we become more and more alike,
not,
not comparing the,
the A's versus the San Francisco Giants.
So what kind of questions would you ask though?
(23:51):
I instead in lieu of,
you know,
what's your favorite baseball team and talking about that?
Well,
I always,
even though as a,
as a private investigator,
I,
I don't have to,
uh,
I basically admonish the people,
you know,
I want them to feel like they can trust me.
So I tell them,
you know,
I'm here investigating blah,
(24:11):
blah,
blah,
blah,
and I'm talking to a number of people.
Uh You're one of many,
uh and I wanna learn what,
learn from you,
what happened now,
I'm not a police officer so you don't have but you don't,
and you don't have to talk to me if you don't want to,
you know,
nothing's gonna happen to you if you say no,
(24:32):
I'd rather not talk to you or even if you want to get a lawyer,
that's fine.
So,
understanding that,
are you willing to chat?
I don't say talk or I say chat.
Are you willing to chat with me for a little while this morning?
And I say chat because it's,
it's a lower level in a little while.
(24:53):
So they don't think about that movie where the guy was interrogated for 12 hours.
And then,
uh,
how long have you?
I asked,
how long have you worked here was,
tell me about your job.
Uh,
and people like to talk about their job and what they do.
Uh,
and pretty soon,
(25:14):
uh,
and what about your job and this and that?
And we have a,
a back and forth and at some point I'll say,
well,
you know,
I need to ask you some questions about can,
can we do that now?
Sure.
They're talking,
they're relaxed.
They are not like this,
you know,
when they are like this.
Yeah.
(25:35):
And I,
I walk in the room sometimes instead of people,
you know,
this is supposedly a real sign of anxiety,
especially in Children and they're like that.
Well,
I wanna relax with their hands,
drop down.
So I worked there.
How often in your experiences have people actually said?
(25:56):
Well,
no,
I don't want to talk to you if I don't have to,
I don't want to talk to you and piggybacking on that in those situations were those people mostly guilty of whatever it was that you were trying to get at,
you know,
and they didn't want to talk or,
or the guilty,
very willing to talk as a cop.
I had,
you know,
more than a few say,
(26:16):
no,
I don't wanna talk to me.
A lawyer but as a private investigator,
I cannot remember a single incident where they didn't agree to talk to me,
even the guilty ones,
but even the guilty ones because most people have never met a real private investigator,
let alone talk to one.
And they're curious,
(26:37):
they're also curious,
the guilty ones.
They want to know how much I know.
So they're gonna try to interview me at the same time.
And so based on what they asked me,
I learned from that too.
Yeah,
that makes perfect sense that they want to try and figure out what the other,
(27:00):
what the authorities or,
you know,
you have.
Yeah.
Interesting.
I hadn't really thought of that.
My next question is about open ended versus close ended questions.
And I asked this because,
you know,
when we have five Children,
they're all grown now.
But when,
you know,
we would sit at the dinner table and talk about the day and you ask a question.
(27:20):
How was your day?
Oh,
good.
You know,
but if you say,
what did you do today?
You know,
that's an open ended question that forces a different kind of response.
So we quickly,
and we're both educators too,
but we quickly learn to use open ended questions that force the kids to actually engage a little bit more than these.
Yes or no.
So how did you,
(27:41):
uh I guess,
do you obviously approach interviews more with open ended questions?
And um you know,
what is your questioning strategy?
Like,
I guess,
well,
I try to maybe only one closed in question uh because the open ended,
(28:01):
that's what's gonna make the story.
I mean,
if I ask you,
Melissa,
did you kill your husband?
You're gonna say probably no.
And that's the end of it,
you know,
but if I,
you know,
it's like more open ended,
you know,
(28:21):
we're here today.
We,
we're talking about what happened to your husband.
Uh Can you help me figure that out?
So that's your close ended question.
Yes.
Yes.
I'll help you figure that out.
Yeah.
You know,
so then we start talking about it and then,
and then sometimes I'll ask an open ended question and there,
(28:44):
there's a long pause and I,
if that happens,
I'm in hog heaven because I just sit back,
relax because you are already with.
Hm.
No one can sit quiet in that type of an,
uh,
interview in an interview like that.
(29:04):
Or probably most,
any situation where there's interaction without finally breaking the ice.
Yeah,
I use that actually in my,
uh,
mysteries where the sleuth,
all of mine are amateur sleuth.
I have one private investigator.
Um,
but they use that silence,
you know,
(29:25):
keeping quiet because inevitably the other person's going to start talking and fill that silence.
It's just sort of human nature.
Are you ever tempted to break that silence?
Did you have to teach yourself not to break that silence yourself?
Actually,
there's an acquaintance of mine.
He has a phd in threat assessment and in,
(29:46):
uh,
protection.
And I was taking one of his classes and he talked about how on this one case he decided he wasn't going to speak.
So he went in and he,
for an hour,
he just,
(30:07):
and the guy would talk and then he start the only thing he ever says.
Hm.
And he said it last an hour and the guy confessed and I never,
I never asked the question.
Wow.
Interesting.
Not just that pressure,
pressure cook.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean,
(30:28):
look at first dates,
you,
you know,
you're sitting across from the table and you have no idea what to say generally.
Um,
especially the guy.
Why is that?
Why?
Especially the guy?
Well,
because I'm a guy and I can remember,
(30:49):
we,
all,
my wife still still says,
you know,
you always try to get me to do all the talking.
Well,
as a somewhat of an introvert,
I just naturally use that tactic too,
right?
Ask questions.
So I don't have to talk because for me that's a lot easier.
(31:10):
So what are uh ways that you personally and,
or writers can instill into their detectives ways to detect uh your interviewee being deceptive?
You know,
how are there,
are there cues,
are there tricks,
are there ways that you can sort of psychologically detect?
(31:31):
Oh,
they're telling they're lying,
you know.
Yes.
Uh There's a world-famous school out of Chicago that teaches interviewing and interrogation techniques and they spend a great deal of time on your,
on the body movements,
like,
see how my arms are crossed.
(31:53):
That is quote unquote,
a sign of pushing away and being deceptive.
Well,
you can't accept that because that's what I do when I'm talking to anybody.
So I look for things like the cross farms.
But I also look at like if I'm thinking and telling the truth,
I'm usually like this,
(32:15):
if I'm lying,
I'm off to the left.
Uh And it's funny when I first heard that I didn't believe it but more often than not it is.
But you put that in.
That's true for most people that they look to the left when their line and to the right or they have just ad,
you know,
one way or the other experience,
(32:38):
more people telling the truth,
look off to the right and up because they're trying to get the right answer,
the ones on the left,
you know,
and,
but remember that's just one thing and it might be completely false because what if I'm the one guy who crosses his arms and always looks to the left,
(32:59):
you know,
so you got to look at other things.
Um I'm gonna push away.
I wanna get a distance from you because i it's easier for me to not be truthful if we're not up in each other's space.
Uh,
oh,
there's a term they don't do this anymore,
(33:20):
but we used to sit at the table and then I would sit at the end of the little interview table and I would come around and get closer and closer until it was basically,
you know,
like that.
And,
uh they describe what it was called,
a level of a high intensity when your legs overlapped,
(33:40):
your legs were between the interviewees,
uh uh legs and back then it didn't matter if it was a man or a woman.
My God,
if you did that today,
especially with someone of the opposite sex,
you'd probably get fired.
But it's harder for you to lie when we're really into each other.
(34:04):
And there are other little things,
you know,
they,
they twist,
they look away,
they look down,
one of the things they talk about is they cover their mouths because they know what's coming out is a lie and they don't really want it to come out.
Uh,
and that,
that helps.
But again,
I can't stress enough that these are all traits that might not be.
(34:30):
But if you start adding them up and they can't look you in the face and you know,
some of the things they're saying are not true.
You start forming an opinion that this person is being deceitful.
Now,
are they being deceitful about the crime you're investigating?
Are they being deceitful because there's something else or some embarrassing thing that happened?
(34:55):
So you have to leave those alternatives always open.
In fact,
that's one of my favorite words,
alternatives,
you always have to consider.
What are the alternatives?
I had?
I had one where uh I knew that this teller had embezzled $100.
And I kept uh you know,
(35:16):
I asked her,
you,
you do,
you,
you stole the $100 and her answers were,
and her movements were so truthful when she denied stealing $100.
And finally,
she says Mr Kramer,
I didn't steal $100.
I stole $200.
(35:39):
Did she,
did she,
you break her down or did she finally just say this is,
well,
I,
I had her pretty well broken down but she was getting frustrated with me that I was not paying attention to what she was saying.
That's so funny.
How do you adapt your questioning or um modify your questioning based on different types of people that you're interviewing?
(36:10):
So say you're interviewing a child or um a woman versus a man or somebody with a DH D or some other,
you know,
autistic or you know,
whatever the situations are,
how do you just adjust on the fly?
Do you go in knowing that you have to approach it differently?
Especially with a child,
for example.
And now as you mentioned,
(36:30):
with a woman,
if you're a male investigator,
that's a whole different dynamic at this time.
As a writer,
you have to establish in your writing and in your mind when this interview is taking place,
is it taking place in 1960 or is it taking place in 2023?
(36:55):
Right?
I mean,
good point.
Yeah.
Or even farther back because the rules are really changed in 68 or nine.
I interviewed a 16 year old boy who was a car thief and he just adamantly denied it.
I kept him for two hours in a tiny little room,
(37:17):
interviewing him alone,
no parent,
no lawyer until he finally confessed and it was perfectly legit.
It was,
that's the way it was if I did that today.
Well,
first I,
you have to have a,
an adult,
you know,
or a lawyer.
(37:38):
So,
you know,
the rules change.
Uh And I'm in my current book,
I'm trying to do interviews directed towards gathering information,
but I do have some,
oh,
I hate this word interrogation type interviews.
Do you?
Is there a particular TV show that you think the either detective or police officer or P I does interviews particularly well and authentically,
(38:09):
I should say none of the American programs.
The British are much better at it,
uh,
in their shows and they tend to follow the law pretty straight.
Now,
back some decades,
the British police started a program,
(38:30):
they called Peace pe E ac.
It stood for something but it ensured the rights of the person being interviewed and laid down and established how the interviews would be conducted.
That's a common thread throughout most of the,
uh,
British detective shows I watch and there's a lot of them a,
(38:51):
a plug for Brit Box.
I would rather watch Brit Box and the detective shows on there.
Investigators and they're,
they're more human.
There are very few,
uh,
slamming the table in interrogations.
Uh Blue Bloods is one of my favorite TV shows,
but it is so full of bullshit.
(39:12):
Excuse me?
It is,
it is so untrue.
I imagine most of them are.
I love the closer.
Did you ever watch that?
Oh,
she was great.
Yes,
I loved her.
And now she always seemed to break them down and use different techniques for different people that she was interviewing rather than interrogating.
(39:36):
But there were a couple of times when she lost her cool that they played good cop,
bad cop.
And,
yeah,
I always felt that seemed fairly authentic,
but who knows?
Well,
in some ways it's closer than,
than a lot of others.
It's like my absolute favorite is Harry Bosch.
Oh,
yeah.
(39:56):
Yeah.
Connolly books and all that.
In fact,
I always quote something from,
uh,
Harry Bosch in my detective.
Oh,
fun.
We started watching Unforgotten,
which is on acorn.
Have you watched that one?
It's British.
Um,
and they investigate cold cases.
(40:17):
It's very good.
Highly recommend anybody listening.
So,
uh,
what are some pitfalls that you can share with our listeners?
Um,
you know,
as they're writing these detectives or these pis or these amateur sleuths,
what are some pitfalls that they should really be aware of and try to stay away from or not include in how they write an interrogation or an interview scene when they're trying to glean information from whoever they're talking with.
(40:45):
Well,
again,
it depends on the,
the,
the,
uh,
what years they're writing about,
but if it's like today in modern times,
um,
the victim's rights are subordinate to the suspect's rights in some ways.
So,
uh,
when you're working with that suspect,
(41:07):
you have to,
you have to push all the movies and TV,
shows aside uh because it could get you in trouble because you skip the,
the different steps,
you know,
and when you do the interviews,
uh I stay away from interrogations again in my books,
(41:29):
I interview people.
Now you have to,
the biggest problem with that is interviews can go on for hours,
but you only have basically one,
maybe a page and a half to do your interview.
So it's very difficult.
Uh But you could mention,
you know,
you spend an hour,
(41:49):
you spend a half hour chatting and getting to know each other.
And now,
you know,
listen,
now,
listen,
we've been talking for the last hour just chatting.
Is that,
is that correct?
Yes.
Ok.
Now,
can we get into and that's one short,
one sentence.
So you've taken an hour or a page down to this to a short paragraph,
(42:14):
we need to talk about this and of course,
you don't ask all the questions.
Uh but you,
you know,
you ask a few questions,
skip some time and,
and move on and you treat the people as people.
I could,
I use the word folks all the time how,
you know,
that's what we need to talk folks.
Uh But then again,
(42:35):
I'm,
I'm really trying to be low key.
I always remember what happened in Monterey and I,
well,
I don't go out in the field anymore,
but I would never,
I never allow that to happen again.
So,
um you mentioned,
you know,
you can't skip over the steps in terms of,
you know,
what you're allowed to do or how you're allowed basically to approach an interview.
(43:00):
So,
are there,
you know,
formal steps that you must follow when you're interviewing obviously as a detective when you're,
if you have to give the Miranda rights or things like that,
that might be different than just api or especially an amateur sleuth.
But what are those,
you know,
so first you want to establish a report?
But that's not an actual,
(43:21):
like,
determined step.
That must be done.
That's an approach.
Right.
Well,
just as the police can lie,
the private investigator can lie but has actually,
has more obstacles to overcome than the cop if he lies.
So I try not to lie.
(43:42):
Well,
why is that,
what are those obstacles because they're gonna rip you apart in court and is frowned upon,
you know,
there's no written laws as you can't.
You ha you are forbidden from ever lying to the guy.
You know,
I won't say I haven't lied but I,
you know,
minimum.
But what I would be more likely to do is give a,
(44:05):
what if,
question?
Hey,
Bill,
we've been talking about this for an hour now and you tell me you were never in that house.
What if I told you that we have prints from the,
uh,
the handle in the bathroom,
your prints?
Oh,
if he's been in the house,
(44:26):
did I go to the bathroom or just,
but you're also taking a risk.
What if I told you we got your prints inside the house and the guy knows he was never inside the house.
So you have to be careful and you have to think about the risk that's involved.
So going back to the closer for a second,
(44:47):
I seem to recall an episode a moment when she says something to the effect of,
she never asks a question that she doesn't really know the answer to,
which is obviously,
you know,
you can't always know the answer.
That's a point of interviewing that you're supposed to try.
You're trying to get information that you don't necessarily have.
So would you put yourself in that position where you proposed a what if that you actually didn't know the answer to knowing that it could completely backfire?
(45:16):
Yes,
I would ask those questions where she said you never ask a question unless you know the answer.
That's kind of a lawyer uh asking,
but I'm asking the questions to get answers to find out and get information that I didn't have before and not,
(45:36):
and not all of my interviews are of the suspect,
there's witnesses or passerbys,
there's the victim,
you know,
so you have to ask questions in my opinion,
you don't know the answer to it.
Like who robbed you?
I don't know the answer to that.
I'm here to get as much as I can.
(45:58):
Well,
the,
the can you describe them?
Boom,
boom,
boom,
boom.
That's a,
that's the first question for a victim or a witness.
Can you describe this person?
Well,
I don't know what they look like because I wasn't there.
So that's a question.
I don't know the answer to.
Now.
I can't think.
What was her name of the closer?
Um Brenda Lee Johnson.
(46:21):
Yeah.
Brenda Lee.
Brenda Lee is 99% of the time interviewing somebody that she already knows is guilty.
Right?
Well,
a different situation because they are a different kind of a unit.
So,
yeah,
that's true.
Ok.
So going back to pitfalls.
So um you know,
telling how much veracity you're exhibiting during the interview,
(46:45):
not lying,
too much.
What else would be a pitfall that writers should look out for a pitfall in,
in writing is saying you're doing something as fact that is contrary to what really is in the world.
That's why some of us create fictitional cities.
(47:06):
So we don't have to worry about it.
Now,
in robbers and cops I had and this could be a pitfall.
I had them do an armed robbery in Sacramento in 19,
I don't know,
39 and they got there to the foreign state at a hotel.
Well,
I could,
I could have made up a hotel but I researched and got the name of the right hotel early on in uh Robbers,
(47:33):
I asked my wife to read my partial manuscript and she brought it back.
It said anybody but he says is gonna complain.
Call you a fool.
Why I had a person in San Mateo starting his day off every day by reading Oakland Tribune in the San Francisco Chronicle.
(47:56):
Well,
everybody got the chronicle.
But why would a guy over in San Mateo be reading an Oakland newspaper instead of a San Mateo paper?
It took me three hours to find the name of the right newspaper for that period of time.
So that's a pitfall.
If you're using real locations or real things,
(48:17):
you have to make sure you use them properly.
Yeah,
definitely.
I wrote um I have a series set in Sacramento also,
but contemporary and we used to live there and I have a scene in the first book where she go,
my character goes to the a marina on the garden highway and there's one review way back,
(48:40):
you know,
early days that says something to the effect of that's not there.
Da da da.
It's not,
you know,
that way.
I'm and I'm thinking,
yes,
it is.
I went there,
I research,
you know,
so even if you do the,
the work,
the legwork,
the research,
there's still going to be people that try and call you out or don't believe you or see it a different way.
Fictional towns are much easier.
(49:00):
Yes.
So,
ok,
so pitfalls for interrogation or interviewing is to,
you know,
keep to the truth as much as possible.
To not create a situation where you're dragged into court and that's a problem for the prosecution.
Might anything else in terms of how you approach an interrogation or an interview,
(49:20):
I guess,
as a professional,
uh,
law enforcement,
as api,
and then maybe as an amateur,
as a,
as a police officer,
the statutes have pretty much changed and I can only speak for a couple of local police agencies.
It may be different in a different county or different state.
(49:42):
In fact,
I know it's different,
you know,
states.
Uh,
but like in,
in this county,
when they do the interviews,
they often have two people present so that there's a witness.
Uh,
but they understand that the witness is gonna keep their mouth shut.
(50:04):
It's video being videotaped and recorded and they have to admonish and tell everybody for the private investigator.
Interviews are conducted wherever you are usually in a home or an office.
If it's in a home,
you have to think about where the interview is being conducted.
(50:26):
I recommend the kitchen table because you can sit at one end and the other person can sit at the other end or cross.
Uh,
uh,
and especially if it's a female.
Uh,
hopefully there's somebody else there and you,
if you do it in the living room and you sit on the couch and they sit on an easy chair,
(50:51):
you sink down,
you're not comfortable,
it's hard to write.
And what if that woman gets up and walks over and sits down next to you.
I'm running out the door.
You know,
now,
um,
and for the Amma amateur sleuth,
I think about the ladies in the sewing circle who solve crimes,
(51:15):
they get their information.
They talk,
they're not gonna,
they're not gonna get me or anybody else to sit down for interview,
a formal interview.
Uh,
so they have to think about how they get their information and I'm reading something by Jim Malay.
Probably didn't pronounce her name.
(51:35):
Right.
But she's,
uh,
lives here but she's British and she's writing,
uh,
uh,
who done it in,
uh,
England at Oxford.
And there's a very important witness and they coincidentally sit at the same table for lunch,
which is,
which is done in England.
(51:55):
Not here because they don't have a whole lot of tables,
shared tables.
Right.
Yeah.
And so engages in a conversation,
brings out things,
talks,
saying,
exchange information.
He's probably a high end amateur because he used to be an MI-5.
Now.
He's a priest.
(52:16):
But,
you know,
that would be one way,
you know,
hey,
let's go to coffee.
Whatever happened,
happened to coincidentally end up in the same line at the grocery store.
Yeah.
What about recording interviews?
Especially as api,
I know you have to be aware of one party versus two party states.
(52:38):
But did you ever use recording as API when you were working?
Yes.
And even when I was working in other States or other countries?
I would and I would,
I never hi the recorder or did a surreptitious recording.
And I always tell him,
do you mind,
you know,
when I'm talking about blah,
blah,
blah,
(52:58):
well,
we're gonna do the interview.
Now,
do you mind if I record this?
And sometimes it ask why?
Well,
because sometimes we get our,
we get mixed up when we're writing our notes or whatever we want,
whoever has to listen to this or if we transcribe it,
know exactly what you said.
So nobody twisted your words,
(53:20):
that kind of explanation.
Uh I had a uh a theft case of pretty good dollar amount and the suspect was homeless in Sacramento and it took me weeks to find him and he agreed to uh on the street.
Oh,
did he stink to,
to give me a statement?
And I asked the recording and turn the recording on blah,
(53:42):
blah,
blah,
blah,
blah.
We do the interview,
say goodbye to the guy,
get in my car and start playing it back and the batteries were dead and I had no recording and I couldn't find him if you're gonna record,
make sure your equipment is working right now.
It's so much easier.
I imagine with the um the iphone or you know,
(54:04):
your smartphone,
you don't have to have a separate device necessarily.
So you've shared a ton of anecdotes,
which is great.
Is there a particular story that you feel the interview went extraordinarily well,
that you can tell it,
walk us through or conversely,
one that was just a complete flop aside from the one where you lost your temper.
(54:25):
Well,
you know,
actually I'd like to uh share a story where I paid attention to all of his movements and actions and stuff.
Uh It was for a uh large lumber company and the,
they had some videotape here and there and what have you.
But all of the,
(54:46):
the evidence and stuff pointed to this one guy as the only person possible to have committed this crime.
So they hired me and I went up to the where the up northern California and I spent a week there doing witnessing interviews and interviewing him and I interviewed him might have been three times and he just denied,
(55:13):
denied,
denied.
But all of his body movements,
all of his responses were indicative of an honest truth telling person.
It was uh you know,
and just the night and I,
and he had a good story for everything.
In fact,
that's one place where we usually,
(55:34):
we get him to tell the truth.
It's always the same story.
If you're a liar,
your story changes,
you know,
you just a little bit.
His story never changed.
Uh And so when I wrapped up,
II I told the uh player,
I said,
I'm sure he did it but you know,
he hasn't confessed.
(55:55):
I can't prove he did it.
I suggest you call the police and have them give him a polygraph because private people can't do Polygraphs here anymore.
But the police and he failed the polygraph and confess within like 30 minutes.
So what made you so sure that he did it given that you couldn't prove,
(56:18):
like,
what,
what evidence did you discover that made you quite sure.
Even though he seemed so truthful,
this offense occurred in like two or three in the morning.
Somebody unlocked uh uh uh a gate to get in,
they unlocked an office and these things were recorded.
(56:39):
They didn't record him,
unlocking the office or unlocking the gate.
But he was the only one who had access to all of the things that occurred.
And I can't remember what they were.
But let's say there,
there were five things,
you know,
he had access to this,
this,
this,
(56:59):
this and this.
No one else had access to more than four of those things.
Somebody had three,
somebody,
he's the only one that had access to all five.
I remember exactly.
But there was video of his,
of his car leaving at like four in the morning.
You know,
he did it.
(57:20):
Mhm.
That's the biggest failure.
One of my bigger successes was uh for a chain of department stores.
I did their internal theft cases and they had a manager that they suspected of,
of embezzling money and I interviewed a couple of witnesses and it all kind of pointed towards him So I sat down with him,
(57:47):
he started off with good reflections or actions that slowly got worse,
but he denied,
denied,
denied.
So the more pressure he felt,
the more he withdrew physically showing some of those signs.
Ok.
So after about three hours,
(58:07):
I finally said whatever his name was,
you know,
Bill,
you're a good guy.
I would probably want to go to a ball game with you and you're well liked here.
I said,
but you know,
and I know you did this.
Yeah.
(58:27):
Yes.
And he drops his head.
Well,
it turns out he was a heroin addict and he was supporting his habit.
Nobody knew he was a drug addict.
But yeah,
that was a good success.
And that was the,
that's really cool.
Everything that you've done.
I've had some fun.
Yes.
All right.
(58:47):
Well,
again,
it was really,
really nice meeting you and talking with you and thank you for sharing your expertise about interrogation and,
or interview techniques.
I think it's been fascinating.
I've definitely learned a lot.
Well,
thank you very much for having me.
It's been a ball.
Yeah,
thanks.
I appreciate your time.
(59:08):
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today.
Everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot writer spark academy dot com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then happy writing.
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