October 6, 2023 • 51 mins
Episode 35
Marjory McCown Final Cut Signed Copy Giveaway! If you’d like to enter for a chance to win, go HERE:
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How do you use your real-life as an influence in your writing? Marjorie McCown did just that in her book, Final Cut. She was a costume designer in Hollywood for 30 years and she used experiences from her own life in her book as she created the fictional world of her protagonist, costume designer Joey Jessop.
If you’ve wondered how to incorporate part of your real-life career in your book, listen to this episode of The WriterSpark Podcast.
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A QUICK LOOK AT BOOKS and RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:
- Field Guide to Writing a Cozy Mystery Online Course (https://bit.ly/FieldGuideCozy)
- Melissa Bourbon and Winnie Archer Books (https://melissabourbon.com)
- Marjorie McCown’s Final Cut
- Marjorie McCown’s Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Marjorie mccowan is my guest today on the Ryder Spark podcast.
She spent 30 years in costume design in Hollywood working on major motion pictures.
Like the curious case of Benjamin Button X Men Days of future,
past hairspray Apollo 13,
the aviator,
so many amazing films that she was part of.
(00:22):
It's just fascinating to get behind the scenes,
sort of information,
a sneak peek or a look behind the curtain at what life is really like when filming a movie.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
(00:44):
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(01:16):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher,
living in a small North Carolina town through Writers Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner.
As you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,
(01:39):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Writer Spark Podcast.
I am here today with Marjorie mccown,
who is the author of Final Cut,
which is the first in a new series,
the Hollywood Mysteries.
I had the pleasure of meeting and listening to Marjorie at Fly Leaf Books in Chapel Hill when she was out here a couple of months ago and I get a signed copy,
(02:09):
which is so nice.
I am so happy to welcome you to the Writers Spark Podcast.
Marjorie.
Thank you for being here.
Oh,
thank you for having me.
It's a,
it's an honor to be here and talk to you.
So,
as you know,
we've talked about it a little bit,
the writers part podcast is geared greatly towards aspiring writers,
(02:30):
new writers and writers who want to kind of learn or get reins fired with elements of craft as we talk about all kinds of different things.
So we're gonna be talking about how you took your kind of real life and turned it into this fictional world.
So I want to start,
uh just by hearing a little bit about your path to publishing kind of your origin story.
(02:55):
So how did you,
you know,
transition from your world as a costume designer in Hollywood,
which is so fascinating to being a murder mystery writer.
Well,
it's a,
actually,
I've always wanted to be a writer ever since I was a,
a child,
ever since I was eight years old.
And the first time I read The Wind in the Willows,
(03:18):
I,
that was the first time I was so immersed in the world of the book and fell in love with the characters.
And I was so sad when the book ended that I,
uh,
just decided I had to write my own adventures for Badger and Mole.
So I started doing fan fiction as a,
(03:38):
uh,
uh,
in elementary school before I knew fan fiction was a thing.
It was just for me,
I didn't write it to show to anybody.
I just wrote it because I wanted to stay in that world.
So writing has always been something that's been very dear.
And close to me.
Just like reading books have been dear and close to me since I was a child.
(04:00):
But I made my living in costume design.
And,
uh,
I came to that in college when I took a costume design course,
I was very interested in theater.
I thought I was going to be an English major.
But I,
I got drawn into theater because I loved it and because all the fun people were in the theater department.
(04:22):
I had a very inspiring,
it's one of,
one of my very first professional mentors,
a very inspiring costuming professor who just encouraged me.
And you know,
we all loved her.
She was a wonderful teacher and she was really the person who made me think.
(04:42):
I,
I didn't even know costume design was a real job.
And it combined so many of my natural interests.
I was always interested in history and art and of course,
theater and storytelling.
Um So it just combined all those elements.
And so after college I went to New York City and I started uh well,
(05:07):
I got a degree in fashion design from Fit and,
but then I wanted to go back into theater,
which is it,
I'm going to get to the transitioning part soon.
But um that's what really drew me into costume design in the first place because instead,
uh whereas fashion is about designing the taste of the marketplace,
(05:29):
costume design is about using clothing to help tell a story about a particular set of characters in a particular situation at a particular point in time.
So it's all about character and story,
which is so fascinating.
I have a series,
my Harlow Cassidy Dressmaking series.
(05:51):
Um Little Magical series.
I love Waiting For Mercy.
Oh,
thank you.
Thank you.
I love that charming.
It's a lovely series.
Oh,
thank you.
Yeah.
And it's super fun to write.
Um,
I love the history also.
So I brought,
I always bring in history.
I always bring in strong female relationships.
(06:11):
These are the things that sort of make me tick.
Right.
And the clothing though plays such a big part of each story.
What is she making?
How is she putting it together?
How does that impact the plot?
And I even I knew I wanted to do an apron,
you know,
have her make aprons,
which is so pedestrian for a fashion designer.
But I'm like,
you know,
she lives in small town Texas,
(06:32):
she gotta make aprons.
And so I crafted the plot around that idea.
So I do have that question for you.
I know this is your first book and you're working on your second.
But um how,
how much does the clothing that you wanna talk about influence your plot or do you see that influencing your plots in the future?
(06:55):
Oh,
that's such an,
oh,
that's such an interesting question.
Well,
the clo because my main character is a key costumer,
that's her job,
right?
And so she uh everything her job is about clothing,
um about clothing,
about making film.
Um So I don't know that the clothing influences the plot so much,
(07:21):
but it's certainly a key element.
Always the type of movie that you choose.
Yeah.
Oh,
well,
you know,
thank you.
That's a very good point because,
uh,
I chose to set this first book in the middle of a big superhero movie and,
um,
(07:41):
I did that for a couple of reasons.
Uh,
one,
I mean,
that's where,
that's so much of what Hollywood puts out these days.
A list,
you know,
your,
a list product is largely going to be that comic book superhero,
um,
genre of film,
un,
unfortunately,
(08:01):
unfortunately,
whatever.
Um,
so that was part of it also because uh there's a lot of money that goes into those productions,
there's lots of technical bells and whistles and,
um,
you know,
there's just a lot of opportunity for action,
you know,
back,
you know,
backstage behind the scenes.
Um And then it gave me also the opportunity to um wine just a little bit.
(08:27):
But,
you know,
I as someone who started out,
you know,
back in the nineties in film and loved doing period movies,
I worked on Forrest Gump and Apollo 13 and the curious case of Benjamin Button and those I love period clothing.
Uh I love doing fantasy and period movies.
Most of all the last 10 years of my Hollywood career,
(08:51):
I mostly did comic book and superhero movies because,
you know,
that's,
that's I had,
I was in that sort of,
you know,
that level of filmmaking and um those are the movies that had all the money to spend and that's,
that's just a fact about film.
(09:11):
I mean,
you can make a good film with not much money,
but it's really hard to make a film that looks,
that looks beautiful,
production wise with very little money.
I heard Gwyneth Paltrow or I read something that she said,
uh,
a while back,
she doesn't,
you know,
really make movies anymore.
(09:32):
I don't know if the Marvel,
what Iron Man was her last sort of a thing in Hollywood.
But she,
you know,
she referenced Shakespeare in Love and she just said,
you know,
Hollywood doesn't make those kind of movies anymore.
And those are the movies that I would want to make.
And it's,
I hadn't really thought about it,
you know,
it's been this transition.
So you don't see or you don't really realize how few of those,
(09:56):
you know,
character driven,
interesting movies are not being made anymore.
That's right.
That's right.
It's real and,
and it started happening.
I noticed it.
Oh,
I noticed it as early as the early two thousands.
I think the first X Men movie came out in something like 2004.
(10:18):
And then after that,
you know,
The Iron Man and then the,
you know,
the 8 million different Spider Friend Spiderman franchises and,
you know,
all the,
of the Avengers and all that.
And I noticed an article,
uh,
this past week that said the top 20 superhero movies of 2023 and I thought,
(10:39):
oh my gosh,
how did we get?
No,
give me more Sea biscuit.
Give me more,
I don't know,
but that's what I want.
So,
anyway,
I'm old fashioned,
I'm old school and so that's kind of,
that's another reason I,
uh,
you know,
I tried to whine in a good natured way but,
(11:01):
you know,
that was part of the choice of the superhero movie too.
The mo,
the book I'm doing next,
which is called Starstruck,
which is coming out May 7th of next year is,
uh a mo uh she's working on a movie that's set in the 19 thirties,
in the glamour in Hollywood in the 19 thirties.
So it's very glamorous and very,
(11:22):
you know,
all of that.
Yeah,
all of that wonderful thirties clothing,
which is one of my favorite here.
That's gonna be great.
I'm excited to read that.
So you're right.
So that the clothing did,
did influence the plot on that be because I chose that I chose to have her doing that kind of movie specifically so I could write about those clothes.
(11:42):
Ok.
That's interesting.
Thank you.
Very good.
Very good question.
So we kind of got derailed on your origin story there.
So how did you transition to?
So you've always been the storyteller in one way or another,
even with the fashion design,
costume design.
So how did the actual writing of the mystery come about?
Thank you.
So I,
(12:03):
and so I never tried to make my living at writing,
but I,
I've written for,
um I've written for my entire my entire life just,
you know,
not fan fiction anymore.
But I wrote just for my own creative fulfillment.
You know,
I want to write a murder mystery because that's what I ended up reading all the time.
(12:26):
It was the only thing murder,
uh,
reading a good murder mystery at the end of a work day was the only thing that could shut off my brain from the work.
So,
in the,
in the mid nineties,
even though I'd read Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys and all of that stuff when I was a kid from the mid nineties on,
it was strict murder mysteries all the way for me.
(12:46):
So I knew I wanted to write one and then I started going to a couple of conferences and um and I had actually at this point written um uh written a murder mystery sort of set in the film industry,
not completely,
but it tangentially and I uh I paid the $50 to have a,
(13:10):
a publishing professional critique my work.
It just happened that I got an agent who critiqued my work.
She said,
do you have a completed manuscript?
And I said,
yes,
I do.
And she said,
well,
if you want to,
why don't you send it to me?
And if it's as promising as these pages,
then we can talk about representation.
(13:31):
You want to?
OK.
So I got it and I got her name is Anne Colette and she,
that was just like a gift from the universe dedicated to her.
Right.
Yeah.
Yes.
(13:52):
Yeah.
She has been,
uh,
she's,
she's been absolutely wonderful in every way.
She's,
um,
guided me,
taught me and,
you know,
finally when we were ready with this one and she's the one who convinced me to finally write,
(14:12):
um,
a murder mystery that was set in the film industry.
Um,
but,
uh,
I,
so I'm going to get back to the question again,
the transition because uh it actually has felt like a really natural transition to writing.
That's,
that's sort of why I put in that I've always written because um it,
(14:36):
it becau just because what I,
what I did as a costume designer was for me mostly about storytelling,
even though I love the clothes and love the fabrics and,
and all of that too.
Um And what has been interesting to me is that my day job,
the filmmaking actually influenced my writing in ways that I wouldn't have expected because,
(15:02):
um,
so go ahead.
How,
so that's really interesting.
I want to hear more because I realized when I realized when I was,
um actually,
it was when I was writing final cut that it finally dawned on me that breaking down all the screenplays to chart the costume changes and then watching the movies being made,
(15:27):
shot by,
shot on set every day,
taught me a lot about story structure.
And so now I think of my writing more cinematically and I,
I,
I'm an outliner.
I always outline all my books before I start writing them,
even though I will deviate from the outlines,
(15:48):
you know,
when I get into it,
if it seems like that's where the story of characters are going.
But that outline for me is like the daily shot list of camera setups in a movie.
And when I'm writing I'm always,
I always have the movie version playing,
I guess moviemakers can't really pant it,
(16:08):
can they?
Well,
you know,
you'd think not,
but you'd be surprised.
Um,
that,
that's an,
oh,
I won't even,
you know,
back in the,
back in the studio days they would write the screenplay,
you know,
design all the costumes,
build all the sets,
do the camera and makeup tests and then they'd shoot the movie that has gone by the wayside long ago.
(16:33):
But I will say I have never,
um,
I've seen some bad movies made from good screenplays but I've never seen a good movie made from a bad screenplay or made,
you know,
on the fly,
you know,
just like with it,
which,
you know,
I,
there are some movies I could name that you would,
(16:55):
might be surprised that they just like,
sort of winged.
It winged a lot.
I winged a lot of the action particularly,
which is also disturbing.
But,
yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Um,
so let's move into our topic of the day,
which is taking your day job and you know,
(17:17):
really using that in your book,
which we started to talk about already.
So I recently read romantic comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld and I had a similar reaction that one is set on the set of late night TV,
like Saturday night,
uh Saturday Night Live.
And uh you know,
(17:38):
you get this really detailed behind the scenes look of what it's like.
It kind of takes the mystique out of it,
right?
It takes the magic out of it because you see how it all progresses.
And I mean,
it was just so cool and so interesting and to kind of get the same behind the scenes,
look at how movies are made and,
(18:00):
you know,
second assistant directors and all of these things that you don't even know exist or a part of it,
you know,
you see the credits,
my,
one of my sons makes music for movies.
He works in a studio in North Hollywood.
And so we get to see the musical side of that but not sort of the behind the scenes.
Yeah.
Um So that was just so fascinating.
So is it the fascination of that day job that and,
(18:25):
and that being just kind of like what,
you know,
and have done for so long that influenced how you wrote this book and setting,
you know,
and the,
the concept behind it or,
you know,
what was the catalyst,
I guess?
Or,
or was there not even any thought to it because you're just like,
yeah,
this is what I have to write.
Yes.
Um,
I resisted writing a book set in the direct middle of the film industry because I thought I was still clo too close to it after I,
(18:53):
uh,
you know,
because it's a,
I'm very grateful for the experience.
It was really wonderful but it's pretty intense sometimes.
And when I retired I was like,
I wanna be done with that for a while.
You know,
I want some distance from that.
But Anne was like,
so actually she let me write,
she let me,
she did,
(19:14):
she let me write at uh a murder mystery that wasn't set directly in the film industry.
She was really advocated for it,
took it out to publishers,
you know,
we got some,
you know,
big pile of really polite rejection letters.
And then she said to me,
ok,
you wanna sell a book,
(19:34):
you know,
write what,
you know,
set it in the middle of the film industry because she said every time I talk to you about,
you know,
the industry,
she said,
uh she said,
I think it's really interesting and I think readers will think it's really interesting too.
So I think it's so interesting.
It was when I listened to your talk with um Victoria Gilbert at Fly leave and I found it so fascinating and I think I went up to you right then and there and I was like,
(20:01):
be on my podcast,
please,
because it's so interesting.
You just,
again,
it's that behind the scenes of this thing that we don't usually get to peek at and,
and I love that.
Thanks.
That's very kind.
Yeah.
And you're,
and you're right.
It is.
It's what I did for 30 years.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
um,
it's really,
I've done all the research,
(20:22):
right.
Um So,
so,
uh it was,
and I used a almost everything in the book.
I mean,
I'm uh Marcus Prey is that the uh sleazy producer,
director who's a sexual predator.
And um you know,
(20:42):
the main,
OK.
Um he is a composite of different people and uh he's not even an exaggeration although um not everybody is,
you know,
everybody is a complete person.
Marcus Prey in the book does,
you know,
you don't get to see his whole,
(21:04):
you know,
persona.
But um but the experience of him is very much an experience uh I have had with different directors and producers,
although I will say there are many,
many more people who are collaborative and um good to work with than there are people like Marcus Prey,
(21:26):
but there are people like Marcus Prey in the film industry.
Um But almost everything that happened was based on something that I witnessed or it had happened.
Me and all of Joey's interactions with celebrities um are interac interactions that I'd had because I've had people ask me,
(21:48):
well,
did you have to get anybody's permission to use their name in the book.
And I'm like,
well,
maybe I should have but I didn't because,
you know,
all those names that I used,
I,
you know,
I was on the other end of that conversation experience,
whatever.
So I felt like,
you know,
it's something that happened to me so you can use it.
(22:11):
Right.
Because I know it's real,
so interesting and,
and the only,
and there's only,
um,
and Marcus Spray,
like I said,
he is a pseudonym and a stand in for people that I haven't named.
Um,
so,
and most everybody at all,
the celeb celebrity interactions I sprinkled in are really mostly,
(22:36):
you know,
complimentary.
They aren't anything that cast aspersions on anybody's character.
So,
so,
uh how did you come up with the name Marcus Prey?
Obviously,
it's a fabulous name.
And so,
uh create conjures up images just by hearing it.
Did that,
did you know right away that that was what you were going to name him.
(22:58):
Pray as a surname or?
Exactly.
But he,
but it is very close to the name of one of his uh real life prototypes.
Oh,
ok.
Well,
I just think of,
you know,
he,
he's this person preying on other people,
you know that.
(23:18):
Well,
that,
that is,
that actually I came up with the prey before I thought of the,
you know,
Pray Prey.
But I,
when,
when that occurred to me,
I was like,
oh,
well,
that's perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Um So let's talk about Joey Jessup and how,
(23:39):
you know,
so we know that this book is greatly influenced by your career and the breadth of knowledge that you have that is just so internalized,
you know,
it's just part of you,
how much of Joey is you?
And was that,
uh you know,
how does she come into this career?
Is that,
does that all mirror your path or did you work hard to separate yourself from your protagonist?
(24:06):
Um Yeah,
she does not commit because she started out um as many people do in the industry in her late teens.
So,
you know,
you and,
and uh I don't say anything about her education or anything like that in my mind.
(24:26):
She had a couple of years of community college before she uh when started in the industry.
But it's something that,
you know,
she was drawn to and she's very,
she is very artistic.
I mean,
she paints and watercolors or did before,
you know,
the industry completely,
you know,
soaked up all her time.
(24:47):
Um So she came into it.
I mean,
I didn't start in film until I was um past 30.
So she started more when she was like 1929 20 because she's 35 in this,
in,
in final cut.
And um she's been in the industry for 15 years.
(25:09):
Um So,
no,
that way and I did want it to be different and she comes from a,
um,
her father died,
uh,
uh,
in the first in Desert Storm.
Um,
you know,
right after,
right after she was born.
So she never knew her father.
She adores her mother.
(25:30):
I,
you know,
I come from a family of four kids and,
you know,
two parent home and I just,
um,
I tried to,
I tried to make her history different from mine because I didn't want her.
Although,
you know,
inevitably because we have the same job,
we have the same skill set,
we have the same outlook on the industry because it's just too good an opportunity to talk about that.
(25:57):
And,
you know,
and how can I talk about an industry?
I worked in for 30 years without,
you know,
my,
I mean,
I have to,
I have nothing to use.
But my point of view,
right?
I have four series with four different sleuths.
Each,
you know,
unique in their own way,
but each one is like me in some way also,
(26:19):
you know,
my very first character was Lola Cruz.
She's a Latina P I um very much,
her family is very much based on my husband's family who's a first generation Mexican American.
And,
you know,
just I really wanted to celebrate the culture and the food and the music and,
you know,
their relationship and all of this stuff.
And I always have said that she Lola is my alter ego if I were younger,
(26:41):
Latina and I,
and sexier,
you know,
but all,
as I said earlier,
you know,
all of my books have certain themes in them.
They have these strong female relationships,
they all have murder because I'm like you,
that's what I gravitate towards with my reading.
For the most part,
they all have,
you know,
sort of the central themes that are meaningful to me.
(27:04):
And so as you said,
you can't help but infuse your protagonist or protagonists with some of those traits or beliefs or value systems because,
you know,
that's,
they're part of us,
they really are part of us.
It's easier to make your supporting characters divergent.
But you,
you know,
it's,
they are the ones we're rooting for.
(27:26):
And so they are,
I think very much part of us,
I think it's inevitable.
Um And so why not embrace,
why not embrace it?
Um And I'm with you,
uh uh I need something in the book to hang on to in terms of um I don't wanna say moral,
(27:49):
I just wanna say some sort of meaningful issue.
Um that is in some,
it,
it either central or very important to the story.
Um So,
uh which,
you know,
in this case,
(28:10):
well,
there are a couple of things,
I mean,
there are a couple of the two things that were most important to me,
whether they,
you know,
came through complete.
I mean,
obviously,
I think um the me too situation uh was central to the book,
but also the mentoring part like,
um,
Joey has a very close relationship with a production assistant who's a young costumer who,
(28:35):
you know,
looks up to her and is very talented and wants to,
um,
wants to make his way in the film industry and she sort of sees herself in him and it's important to her to nurture young talent like that.
And that's I wanted to make that sort of a balancing point to the sexual predation,
(28:57):
which is unfortunately still an element that exists within the film industry.
Um It's just part of the culture that is very slow to change.
Um And,
but the mentoring part is very important in costuming especially and I think in most elements at most at crafts within industry,
(29:21):
the industry like props camera,
you know,
you see people mentoring the younger people because they,
the fact of the matter is there's really no way to learn how to make a movie except to be on a movie.
Um As you can't even in the best film schools that they do a pretty good job at places like UCL A and uh and US C is what I really meant,
(29:45):
but UCL A too and NYU,
but it's really hard to learn.
You can't learn what a big movies.
Hollywood,
professional,
big movie set is like until you're on one,
you just can't replicate that experience in a classroom or a lab or anything like that.
So people have to learn on the job.
So it's important that the people who've been doing it take the time.
(30:09):
There's,
there are no training programs for this stuff.
So it's important to train the people who are working with you so that there's going to be some continuity of professionalism and skill within the industry.
Um or,
and,
and it's,
and because there are hundreds of people working on a big Hollywood movie that there could be 500 people in the group easily.
(30:36):
And so your community,
your coworkers are very important to your everyday working experience.
Nobody,
um nobody makes a movie on their own.
Nobody designs a movie on their own.
There's a whole team of people that need to work together.
So um just that the basic level of camaraderie um collaboration skill so that you can rely and uh rely on the people who you're working with and they can rely on you.
(31:09):
It's just a,
a uh a craft that's very interdependent.
And so uh community is,
is key.
And um anyway,
so that I,
I wanted to,
that I wanted to emphasize that in the book,
given how vast those communities are working on a film,
(31:31):
obviously,
you had to really rein it in,
you know,
still capture sort of the overall experience and um you know,
give the reader a feeling of that sort of broad,
broad experience.
But in terms of uh Joey's immediate community,
(31:52):
how,
who,
how did you choose the characters that were going to be significant in her life and in her community when you had such a vast pool to pull from.
Right.
Well,
iii,
I went back to,
you know,
the tried and true.
What was my day like on a film?
(32:12):
So,
um and then I chose characters or,
and in e every one of the characters is based either on like mallow,
the production assistant is based on any number of both male and female young costumers.
(32:34):
I've worked with over the years who just were like,
um,
so inspirational in and of themselves because they loved what,
you know,
they had a love for the work and an excitement about the industry.
And after you've been doing it for 25 years or so,
and,
you know,
maybe you get on a job that is uh a little bit more pressurized or draining.
(32:56):
It's sometimes hard to,
you know,
reconnect with that enthusiasm and having kids around like that are just like,
you know,
give you a,
a give you an extra hm,
excitement about what you're doing and excitement seeing them blossom.
So ma really ignites your own passion.
(33:20):
Absolutely.
In fact,
um,
you know,
in the last the last few years,
uh of the industry,
things were the industry is in major transition right now,
even more so than,
you know,
five years ago,
56 years ago when I left major transition,
that's just the nature of the beast.
But in the last 10 and especially five or six years,
(33:43):
the industry,
I was just like,
I'm not even recognizing this business very much anymore.
I mean,
it's changed so vastly from when I started out,
I just was like,
you know,
there's nothing to do but accept it and look for what,
you know,
look for what you can,
um,
you can connect with.
(34:04):
And the thing that really kept me going those last years was that I decided I was just going to be there for the people in my department that,
you know,
that was going to be my reason for coming to work every day.
And,
you know,
and yes,
the,
yes,
the job.
But,
you know,
I really did get a little tired of,
(34:25):
you know,
spandex,
um,
superhero suits and,
you know,
armor and all,
you know,
it's fine.
It just wasn't my thing.
So,
is that,
is that primarily what you mean when you say the industry is changing so much that we're going away from those character driven slower paced movies and more into,
you know,
all of the Barbie and the superhero and things like that,
(34:48):
these bigger Blockbusters or are there other ways that it's changing?
Um,
ok,
if I,
if I start going off too much,
just like you say,
ok,
because this is like one of my,
um,
you know,
the industry started changing.
Yeah,
like,
at least 20 years ago in terms of,
(35:10):
and it happened before this.
But you I really started seeing the impact of it about 20 years ago.
Um,
but studios are all run by corporations now and there's very little creative power left or freedom left within the real filmmakers hands.
(35:30):
I mean,
there are still a few of them out there.
Ron Howard.
I mean,
Clint Eastwood.
God bless him.
He's still hanging on and Barry Levinson,
Martin Scorsese,
but mostly the younger,
uh,
Quentin Tarantino,
I don't particularly like his work,
but I realize he's a genius and I,
(35:51):
he's a true film historian and he loves the industry and he is a real filmmaker,
but mostly it's these corporate types who don't have enough creative vision to understand that everybody wants a story to be told all they can,
um all they can understand and this is not even,
(36:15):
this is not even a criticism against them personally,
bless you.
Um They don't understand the product they're making,
they don't know how to make films,
they don't know why they work or why they don't work and they don't trust the people who do know,
like Scorsese,
like,
you know,
the filmmakers who are coming up who are,
(36:36):
have the kind of vision that Scorsese does.
They won't trust those people.
All they can see is what's worked at the box office before.
And that's why we get a million different Sequels.
There's another reason too,
which I,
uh which I mentioned in the book,
which is around 2008,
around the crash,
the market also fell out from under the DVD.
(36:58):
Uh And that was a third of the studio's income.
So they needed to look for emerging markets where they could really rake it,
you know,
replace that income.
And a lot of the West is saturated in terms of what they can really further ex you know,
how they can expand.
(37:20):
So they uh they're looking to expand into China and India and where there's a lot where there,
but the language barrier,
the cultural barriers preclude doing something like a curious case,
Benjamin button.
Whereas the Avengers,
they're immediately recognizable as characters.
(37:40):
There's mostly action.
Um There's no complicated dialogue or cultural humor or,
you know,
even character that you have to like there just isn't any subtlety,
it is what it is and that's the product.
And so there are a lot of reasons it's changing.
Um But so,
(38:01):
so you chose the superhero movie,
we talked about that a bit and then you mentioned the next um book is based on a 19 thirties film.
So how do you deal with that film being made,
given the climate of filmmaking today?
And is there kind of this um you know,
(38:23):
this uh separation of reality versus what you're creating in fiction?
Like,
would the movie that you are writing about next be made today?
It could be um but it would,
it would need um a actually,
I've gotta be honest,
I based it on The Aviator,
(38:45):
which is,
um,
which is a movie I also worked on,
um,
and it could be made today.
I mean,
it would be like Oppenheimer,
maybe,
you know,
it would be that,
that level of a list movie that love that same,
you know,
sort of period.
So it could be made today.
It would be like,
(39:07):
maybe the only movie that's being made in Hollywood like that.
But it could be.
So,
um,
and I do II,
I don't attach anybody real to it,
but I attach to,
uh,
actors who are supposedly like,
you know,
two of the biggest stars working,
uh,
in the industry.
(39:27):
So to justify the fact that,
you know,
it is being made and it's being made in Hollywood.
Yeah.
Well,
yeah,
if you look at Oppenheimer in the cast for that,
that,
that tells you why it was able to be made in,
you know,
why they had the,
the money behind it,
not only to make it,
but to market it as well,
especially when against Barbie,
(39:51):
which I actually loved so much.
It was,
you know,
it was very,
it was very smart.
This episode of the Writer Spark podcast is brought to you by writer Spark Academy's field guide to writing a Cozy mystery.
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I do have another question um When you're writing about something that's so personal to you and so much a part of you,
your career,
you know what you've spent your life doing?
(41:08):
What are the sort of pitfalls or the obstacles that you faced aside from what you already mentioned about needing to create some distance from this world that you already were so immersed and you didn't want to necessarily write about that.
So,
aside from that,
are there other pitfalls or obstacles that,
you know,
aspiring writers,
people who are listening to as people who want to write about their real life in a fictionalized way might want to consider?
(41:34):
That's such a great question.
Yes,
there are and some of them are that um there were some uh like that scene at the scene uh in chapter two,
when the actress is being humiliated in front of the entire company by the director that was so difficult to write and it really,
(42:01):
uh I can't tell you how,
I don't even know how many times I rewrote it because I,
and with coaching from Anne and my editor when we got to the point of publication,
um it was hard to hit a balance between because at one point,
um they both said,
(42:22):
you know,
he's so awful.
Uh,
you know,
you have to and,
and it two things he's so awful and you've got to show more of her interior reactions to that.
And,
but when they said he's so awful,
you need to temper that a little bit and he's so awful and you need to show her reactions and that both of those things were difficult because like,
(42:46):
a lot of that dialogue was just,
you know,
it was just typing on my part.
It wasn't like making anything up,
it was just like stuff I'd seen and it's kind of like,
uh,
I mean,
I can see your agent and your editor's point in the sense that do we believe that these things really happened,
you know,
(43:06):
they're so extreme.
Is it hyperbolic?
You know,
and you know,
that it's true,
but in truth being stranger than fiction and all of that,
but we have to create it.
So it's accessible for the reader.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I,
and I,
and when they said that I did understand that and it was still,
it was still a challenge for me because I was so emotionally,
(43:31):
you know,
and meshed in it,
which is part of the reason that I was hesitant to go there in the first place,
you know,
and I didn't have to write about that aspect of the film industry.
But it's,
it's,
you know,
something that was,
that's really important to me and really affected my career and a lot of other people's careers too.
(43:51):
And I'm not saying that I'm not,
I don't feel sorry for myself in any way.
I was incredibly lucky and I am grateful for my years in film.
But that is a fact that it was a dynamic that was there every day and 11 thing I wanted to do with that was to,
(44:11):
you know,
turn it on its ear a little bit and explore how,
if you're in the middle of that situation,
what can you do and what should you do and at least you should be thinking about it.
What can you do to change it?
Even if you feel like you're powerless um because of the power dynamic in that industry and in other industries,
(44:36):
you know,
in a way you're empowering or showing people how they can respond,
even if they're in a different situation or a different industry,
you know,
you,
you're setting up something that we can learn from.
Right.
Hopefully.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
Which is why I had her,
especially at the end,
you know,
really worry about the,
(44:57):
the ways that she,
you know,
went along with or enabled the director,
even if you know,
her only choice in the matter,
which is really the case is to say,
no,
I won't do that.
Ok,
you're fired,
right?
Um Because like every,
especially in film,
(45:18):
there's no human resources,
every film is its own microcosm of freelance employees who come together for a very short period of time to do a specific project.
So even though it may be the under the auspices of the studio,
that studio really has no day to day involvement,
(45:40):
they have,
they have complete control over,
you know,
budget and what's being done CRE creatively,
but they have no say about the day to day operation of,
you know,
interactions with the employees among themselves.
It's like,
it's very much a military and it has to be this way in lots of ways because there's so many people and there has to be a chain of command or things will degenerate into chaos immediately.
(46:11):
So there's a definite chain of command.
So that,
that you brought up a good question for me though,
uh given the fact that every film is its own microcosm,
you know,
community,
how are you dealing with that with Joey and the next book?
Because we don't have the same,
does she have the same,
you know,
small group of community that's going to be on the next film that she works on as well.
(46:35):
And is that sort of creative license because that doesn't actually happen?
Uh,
she,
there are certain people who,
uh,
show up in the next one and what will happen once you've been working for a while?
Is that?
So,
you know,
you'll get on a movie and maybe you'll have the ability to recommend other people or,
(46:58):
you know,
you,
uh,
I mean,
that often happens or you're working at like Clint Eastwood,
for example,
always has the same people working.
And so if you,
um,
they are just opportunities,
it doesn't always happen.
But there,
(47:18):
and certainly you can end up on a film where,
you know,
hardly anybody.
Although the longer you work in film,
the rarer that is because even though it's a big community of people,
it's really smaller than it seems,
especially within the different crafts.
So anyway,
she does have the same supervisor,
Bill Nichols is on it and she brings on the same Zephyr Tomomasu,
(47:43):
the principal costumer.
And then,
um,
she,
you know,
she has reason to contact Maggie Fuller who is the investigative reporter who,
you know,
she was sort of frenemies with during final cut and she has reason to tap her for some,
(48:05):
um,
insight in this next one.
So you make it work.
Right.
Right.
Ok.
So,
so there are new people,
certainly,
but not everybody's completely unfamiliar.
Yeah.
Ok.
Because that's,
you know,
that's part of the um little cozy mystery genre is that you have this commu tight knit community,
(48:26):
right?
That,
that goes from one book to the next to the next to the next.
You always have to introduce new characters because somebody has to get killed off that isn't,
you know,
beloved.
So,
you know,
it's finding a balance between that,
but it seems to me that this is a little trickier if you want to stay really true to how it is in the industry,
but you can also take license.
(48:46):
So I mean,
we are murdering people over and over.
So there is some creative license there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um and uh I,
I do introduce a couple of characters in this new one that I be,
you know,
if I'm lucky enough to continue with the series,
I think they're going to be like with her forever.
(49:09):
So,
yeah,
and one of them is a dog.
Yes,
we love our,
we love our dogs,
don't we?
And our cats.
Um All right,
y'all.
So final cut,
first book in the Hollywood mystery by Marjorie mccown.
Thank you so much for being here.
This was fascinating.
I love talking with you.
(49:31):
It's been nice talking with you.
Thank you.
Well,
thank you.
And Marjorie you have a special gift for a listener.
Can we talk about that for a sec?
Yes.
Thank you.
I would love to give a signed copy of final cut,
send a copy of final cut to one of your listeners.
That is great.
(49:52):
See,
I have one right here,
signed.
Um I will have the information in the show notes for people to fill out their entry.
And then a week from the release of this podcast,
a winner will be chosen and contacted.
So everybody look in the show notes right at the top for that link to the form to fill out an entry for a chance to win a signed copy by Marjorie mccown of final cut.
(50:21):
Thank you so much for offering that to the readers.
Thanks again for being here.
Best of luck with this series.
And whenever I'm sorry,
what was the next one called Starstruck,
Starstruck.
Whenever that comes out,
I would love to talk again,
find another topic.
I would love that,
you know,
we can talk forever,
right and inspire people.
(50:41):
Hopefully,
hopefully.
Yes,
yes.
Um ok.
So again,
thanks for being here so much.
Thank you,
Melissa.
This has been really fun.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
(51:02):
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot writer spark academy dot com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.
Happy writing.
Marjorie mccowan is my guest today on the Ryder Spark podcast.
She spent 30 years in costume design in Hollywood working on major motion pictures.
Like the curious case of Benjamin Button X Men Days of future,
past hairspray Apollo 13,
the aviator,
so many amazing films that she was part of.
(00:22):
It's just fascinating to get behind the scenes,
sort of information,
a sneak peek or a look behind the curtain at what life is really like when filming a movie.
Hello.
Hello,
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the writer Spark podcast where business creativity and the craft of writing converge.
(00:44):
Welcome.
15 years ago,
I was an avid reader but not a writer.
I didn't know anything about the actual craft and I knew next to nothing about the publishing industry,
but I had dream to become a published author and I set out to learn everything I could.
Now,
I'm a number one Amazon and national best selling author of more than 35 novels I've published traditionally and I recently plunged into the world of indie publishing and I teach people like you how to grow in their craft and find success in this ever changing industry.
(01:16):
I'm an ordinary person,
a wife,
a mom,
a daughter,
a teacher,
living in a small North Carolina town through Writers Spark.
I am doing what I love more than anything in the world which is teaching and helping others on their writing journeys.
I'm here as your partner.
As you navigate your own writing journey.
I'm here to help you understand the essential elements of the writing craft,
(01:39):
to build your confidence and to help you find the success you desire.
Welcome to the Writer Spark Podcast.
I am here today with Marjorie mccown,
who is the author of Final Cut,
which is the first in a new series,
the Hollywood Mysteries.
I had the pleasure of meeting and listening to Marjorie at Fly Leaf Books in Chapel Hill when she was out here a couple of months ago and I get a signed copy,
(02:09):
which is so nice.
I am so happy to welcome you to the Writers Spark Podcast.
Marjorie.
Thank you for being here.
Oh,
thank you for having me.
It's a,
it's an honor to be here and talk to you.
So,
as you know,
we've talked about it a little bit,
the writers part podcast is geared greatly towards aspiring writers,
(02:30):
new writers and writers who want to kind of learn or get reins fired with elements of craft as we talk about all kinds of different things.
So we're gonna be talking about how you took your kind of real life and turned it into this fictional world.
So I want to start,
uh just by hearing a little bit about your path to publishing kind of your origin story.
(02:55):
So how did you,
you know,
transition from your world as a costume designer in Hollywood,
which is so fascinating to being a murder mystery writer.
Well,
it's a,
actually,
I've always wanted to be a writer ever since I was a,
a child,
ever since I was eight years old.
And the first time I read The Wind in the Willows,
(03:18):
I,
that was the first time I was so immersed in the world of the book and fell in love with the characters.
And I was so sad when the book ended that I,
uh,
just decided I had to write my own adventures for Badger and Mole.
So I started doing fan fiction as a,
(03:38):
uh,
uh,
in elementary school before I knew fan fiction was a thing.
It was just for me,
I didn't write it to show to anybody.
I just wrote it because I wanted to stay in that world.
So writing has always been something that's been very dear.
And close to me.
Just like reading books have been dear and close to me since I was a child.
(04:00):
But I made my living in costume design.
And,
uh,
I came to that in college when I took a costume design course,
I was very interested in theater.
I thought I was going to be an English major.
But I,
I got drawn into theater because I loved it and because all the fun people were in the theater department.
(04:22):
I had a very inspiring,
it's one of,
one of my very first professional mentors,
a very inspiring costuming professor who just encouraged me.
And you know,
we all loved her.
She was a wonderful teacher and she was really the person who made me think.
(04:42):
I,
I didn't even know costume design was a real job.
And it combined so many of my natural interests.
I was always interested in history and art and of course,
theater and storytelling.
Um So it just combined all those elements.
And so after college I went to New York City and I started uh well,
(05:07):
I got a degree in fashion design from Fit and,
but then I wanted to go back into theater,
which is it,
I'm going to get to the transitioning part soon.
But um that's what really drew me into costume design in the first place because instead,
uh whereas fashion is about designing the taste of the marketplace,
(05:29):
costume design is about using clothing to help tell a story about a particular set of characters in a particular situation at a particular point in time.
So it's all about character and story,
which is so fascinating.
I have a series,
my Harlow Cassidy Dressmaking series.
(05:51):
Um Little Magical series.
I love Waiting For Mercy.
Oh,
thank you.
Thank you.
I love that charming.
It's a lovely series.
Oh,
thank you.
Yeah.
And it's super fun to write.
Um,
I love the history also.
So I brought,
I always bring in history.
I always bring in strong female relationships.
(06:11):
These are the things that sort of make me tick.
Right.
And the clothing though plays such a big part of each story.
What is she making?
How is she putting it together?
How does that impact the plot?
And I even I knew I wanted to do an apron,
you know,
have her make aprons,
which is so pedestrian for a fashion designer.
But I'm like,
you know,
she lives in small town Texas,
(06:32):
she gotta make aprons.
And so I crafted the plot around that idea.
So I do have that question for you.
I know this is your first book and you're working on your second.
But um how,
how much does the clothing that you wanna talk about influence your plot or do you see that influencing your plots in the future?
(06:55):
Oh,
that's such an,
oh,
that's such an interesting question.
Well,
the clo because my main character is a key costumer,
that's her job,
right?
And so she uh everything her job is about clothing,
um about clothing,
about making film.
Um So I don't know that the clothing influences the plot so much,
(07:21):
but it's certainly a key element.
Always the type of movie that you choose.
Yeah.
Oh,
well,
you know,
thank you.
That's a very good point because,
uh,
I chose to set this first book in the middle of a big superhero movie and,
um,
(07:41):
I did that for a couple of reasons.
Uh,
one,
I mean,
that's where,
that's so much of what Hollywood puts out these days.
A list,
you know,
your,
a list product is largely going to be that comic book superhero,
um,
genre of film,
un,
unfortunately,
(08:01):
unfortunately,
whatever.
Um,
so that was part of it also because uh there's a lot of money that goes into those productions,
there's lots of technical bells and whistles and,
um,
you know,
there's just a lot of opportunity for action,
you know,
back,
you know,
backstage behind the scenes.
Um And then it gave me also the opportunity to um wine just a little bit.
(08:27):
But,
you know,
I as someone who started out,
you know,
back in the nineties in film and loved doing period movies,
I worked on Forrest Gump and Apollo 13 and the curious case of Benjamin Button and those I love period clothing.
Uh I love doing fantasy and period movies.
Most of all the last 10 years of my Hollywood career,
(08:51):
I mostly did comic book and superhero movies because,
you know,
that's,
that's I had,
I was in that sort of,
you know,
that level of filmmaking and um those are the movies that had all the money to spend and that's,
that's just a fact about film.
(09:11):
I mean,
you can make a good film with not much money,
but it's really hard to make a film that looks,
that looks beautiful,
production wise with very little money.
I heard Gwyneth Paltrow or I read something that she said,
uh,
a while back,
she doesn't,
you know,
really make movies anymore.
(09:32):
I don't know if the Marvel,
what Iron Man was her last sort of a thing in Hollywood.
But she,
you know,
she referenced Shakespeare in Love and she just said,
you know,
Hollywood doesn't make those kind of movies anymore.
And those are the movies that I would want to make.
And it's,
I hadn't really thought about it,
you know,
it's been this transition.
So you don't see or you don't really realize how few of those,
(09:56):
you know,
character driven,
interesting movies are not being made anymore.
That's right.
That's right.
It's real and,
and it started happening.
I noticed it.
Oh,
I noticed it as early as the early two thousands.
I think the first X Men movie came out in something like 2004.
(10:18):
And then after that,
you know,
The Iron Man and then the,
you know,
the 8 million different Spider Friend Spiderman franchises and,
you know,
all the,
of the Avengers and all that.
And I noticed an article,
uh,
this past week that said the top 20 superhero movies of 2023 and I thought,
(10:39):
oh my gosh,
how did we get?
No,
give me more Sea biscuit.
Give me more,
I don't know,
but that's what I want.
So,
anyway,
I'm old fashioned,
I'm old school and so that's kind of,
that's another reason I,
uh,
you know,
I tried to whine in a good natured way but,
(11:01):
you know,
that was part of the choice of the superhero movie too.
The mo,
the book I'm doing next,
which is called Starstruck,
which is coming out May 7th of next year is,
uh a mo uh she's working on a movie that's set in the 19 thirties,
in the glamour in Hollywood in the 19 thirties.
So it's very glamorous and very,
(11:22):
you know,
all of that.
Yeah,
all of that wonderful thirties clothing,
which is one of my favorite here.
That's gonna be great.
I'm excited to read that.
So you're right.
So that the clothing did,
did influence the plot on that be because I chose that I chose to have her doing that kind of movie specifically so I could write about those clothes.
(11:42):
Ok.
That's interesting.
Thank you.
Very good.
Very good question.
So we kind of got derailed on your origin story there.
So how did you transition to?
So you've always been the storyteller in one way or another,
even with the fashion design,
costume design.
So how did the actual writing of the mystery come about?
Thank you.
So I,
(12:03):
and so I never tried to make my living at writing,
but I,
I've written for,
um I've written for my entire my entire life just,
you know,
not fan fiction anymore.
But I wrote just for my own creative fulfillment.
You know,
I want to write a murder mystery because that's what I ended up reading all the time.
(12:26):
It was the only thing murder,
uh,
reading a good murder mystery at the end of a work day was the only thing that could shut off my brain from the work.
So,
in the,
in the mid nineties,
even though I'd read Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys and all of that stuff when I was a kid from the mid nineties on,
it was strict murder mysteries all the way for me.
(12:46):
So I knew I wanted to write one and then I started going to a couple of conferences and um and I had actually at this point written um uh written a murder mystery sort of set in the film industry,
not completely,
but it tangentially and I uh I paid the $50 to have a,
(13:10):
a publishing professional critique my work.
It just happened that I got an agent who critiqued my work.
She said,
do you have a completed manuscript?
And I said,
yes,
I do.
And she said,
well,
if you want to,
why don't you send it to me?
And if it's as promising as these pages,
then we can talk about representation.
(13:31):
You want to?
OK.
So I got it and I got her name is Anne Colette and she,
that was just like a gift from the universe dedicated to her.
Right.
Yeah.
Yes.
(13:52):
Yeah.
She has been,
uh,
she's,
she's been absolutely wonderful in every way.
She's,
um,
guided me,
taught me and,
you know,
finally when we were ready with this one and she's the one who convinced me to finally write,
(14:12):
um,
a murder mystery that was set in the film industry.
Um,
but,
uh,
I,
so I'm going to get back to the question again,
the transition because uh it actually has felt like a really natural transition to writing.
That's,
that's sort of why I put in that I've always written because um it,
(14:36):
it becau just because what I,
what I did as a costume designer was for me mostly about storytelling,
even though I love the clothes and love the fabrics and,
and all of that too.
Um And what has been interesting to me is that my day job,
the filmmaking actually influenced my writing in ways that I wouldn't have expected because,
(15:02):
um,
so go ahead.
How,
so that's really interesting.
I want to hear more because I realized when I realized when I was,
um actually,
it was when I was writing final cut that it finally dawned on me that breaking down all the screenplays to chart the costume changes and then watching the movies being made,
(15:27):
shot by,
shot on set every day,
taught me a lot about story structure.
And so now I think of my writing more cinematically and I,
I,
I'm an outliner.
I always outline all my books before I start writing them,
even though I will deviate from the outlines,
(15:48):
you know,
when I get into it,
if it seems like that's where the story of characters are going.
But that outline for me is like the daily shot list of camera setups in a movie.
And when I'm writing I'm always,
I always have the movie version playing,
I guess moviemakers can't really pant it,
(16:08):
can they?
Well,
you know,
you'd think not,
but you'd be surprised.
Um,
that,
that's an,
oh,
I won't even,
you know,
back in the,
back in the studio days they would write the screenplay,
you know,
design all the costumes,
build all the sets,
do the camera and makeup tests and then they'd shoot the movie that has gone by the wayside long ago.
(16:33):
But I will say I have never,
um,
I've seen some bad movies made from good screenplays but I've never seen a good movie made from a bad screenplay or made,
you know,
on the fly,
you know,
just like with it,
which,
you know,
I,
there are some movies I could name that you would,
(16:55):
might be surprised that they just like,
sort of winged.
It winged a lot.
I winged a lot of the action particularly,
which is also disturbing.
But,
yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Um,
so let's move into our topic of the day,
which is taking your day job and you know,
(17:17):
really using that in your book,
which we started to talk about already.
So I recently read romantic comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld and I had a similar reaction that one is set on the set of late night TV,
like Saturday night,
uh Saturday Night Live.
And uh you know,
(17:38):
you get this really detailed behind the scenes look of what it's like.
It kind of takes the mystique out of it,
right?
It takes the magic out of it because you see how it all progresses.
And I mean,
it was just so cool and so interesting and to kind of get the same behind the scenes,
look at how movies are made and,
(18:00):
you know,
second assistant directors and all of these things that you don't even know exist or a part of it,
you know,
you see the credits,
my,
one of my sons makes music for movies.
He works in a studio in North Hollywood.
And so we get to see the musical side of that but not sort of the behind the scenes.
Yeah.
Um So that was just so fascinating.
So is it the fascination of that day job that and,
(18:25):
and that being just kind of like what,
you know,
and have done for so long that influenced how you wrote this book and setting,
you know,
and the,
the concept behind it or,
you know,
what was the catalyst,
I guess?
Or,
or was there not even any thought to it because you're just like,
yeah,
this is what I have to write.
Yes.
Um,
I resisted writing a book set in the direct middle of the film industry because I thought I was still clo too close to it after I,
(18:53):
uh,
you know,
because it's a,
I'm very grateful for the experience.
It was really wonderful but it's pretty intense sometimes.
And when I retired I was like,
I wanna be done with that for a while.
You know,
I want some distance from that.
But Anne was like,
so actually she let me write,
she let me,
she did,
(19:14):
she let me write at uh a murder mystery that wasn't set directly in the film industry.
She was really advocated for it,
took it out to publishers,
you know,
we got some,
you know,
big pile of really polite rejection letters.
And then she said to me,
ok,
you wanna sell a book,
(19:34):
you know,
write what,
you know,
set it in the middle of the film industry because she said every time I talk to you about,
you know,
the industry,
she said,
uh she said,
I think it's really interesting and I think readers will think it's really interesting too.
So I think it's so interesting.
It was when I listened to your talk with um Victoria Gilbert at Fly leave and I found it so fascinating and I think I went up to you right then and there and I was like,
(20:01):
be on my podcast,
please,
because it's so interesting.
You just,
again,
it's that behind the scenes of this thing that we don't usually get to peek at and,
and I love that.
Thanks.
That's very kind.
Yeah.
And you're,
and you're right.
It is.
It's what I did for 30 years.
So,
yeah,
I mean,
um,
it's really,
I've done all the research,
(20:22):
right.
Um So,
so,
uh it was,
and I used a almost everything in the book.
I mean,
I'm uh Marcus Prey is that the uh sleazy producer,
director who's a sexual predator.
And um you know,
(20:42):
the main,
OK.
Um he is a composite of different people and uh he's not even an exaggeration although um not everybody is,
you know,
everybody is a complete person.
Marcus Prey in the book does,
you know,
you don't get to see his whole,
(21:04):
you know,
persona.
But um but the experience of him is very much an experience uh I have had with different directors and producers,
although I will say there are many,
many more people who are collaborative and um good to work with than there are people like Marcus Prey,
(21:26):
but there are people like Marcus Prey in the film industry.
Um But almost everything that happened was based on something that I witnessed or it had happened.
Me and all of Joey's interactions with celebrities um are interac interactions that I'd had because I've had people ask me,
(21:48):
well,
did you have to get anybody's permission to use their name in the book.
And I'm like,
well,
maybe I should have but I didn't because,
you know,
all those names that I used,
I,
you know,
I was on the other end of that conversation experience,
whatever.
So I felt like,
you know,
it's something that happened to me so you can use it.
(22:11):
Right.
Because I know it's real,
so interesting and,
and the only,
and there's only,
um,
and Marcus Spray,
like I said,
he is a pseudonym and a stand in for people that I haven't named.
Um,
so,
and most everybody at all,
the celeb celebrity interactions I sprinkled in are really mostly,
(22:36):
you know,
complimentary.
They aren't anything that cast aspersions on anybody's character.
So,
so,
uh how did you come up with the name Marcus Prey?
Obviously,
it's a fabulous name.
And so,
uh create conjures up images just by hearing it.
Did that,
did you know right away that that was what you were going to name him.
(22:58):
Pray as a surname or?
Exactly.
But he,
but it is very close to the name of one of his uh real life prototypes.
Oh,
ok.
Well,
I just think of,
you know,
he,
he's this person preying on other people,
you know that.
(23:18):
Well,
that,
that is,
that actually I came up with the prey before I thought of the,
you know,
Pray Prey.
But I,
when,
when that occurred to me,
I was like,
oh,
well,
that's perfect.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Um So let's talk about Joey Jessup and how,
(23:39):
you know,
so we know that this book is greatly influenced by your career and the breadth of knowledge that you have that is just so internalized,
you know,
it's just part of you,
how much of Joey is you?
And was that,
uh you know,
how does she come into this career?
Is that,
does that all mirror your path or did you work hard to separate yourself from your protagonist?
(24:06):
Um Yeah,
she does not commit because she started out um as many people do in the industry in her late teens.
So,
you know,
you and,
and uh I don't say anything about her education or anything like that in my mind.
(24:26):
She had a couple of years of community college before she uh when started in the industry.
But it's something that,
you know,
she was drawn to and she's very,
she is very artistic.
I mean,
she paints and watercolors or did before,
you know,
the industry completely,
you know,
soaked up all her time.
(24:47):
Um So she came into it.
I mean,
I didn't start in film until I was um past 30.
So she started more when she was like 1929 20 because she's 35 in this,
in,
in final cut.
And um she's been in the industry for 15 years.
(25:09):
Um So,
no,
that way and I did want it to be different and she comes from a,
um,
her father died,
uh,
uh,
in the first in Desert Storm.
Um,
you know,
right after,
right after she was born.
So she never knew her father.
She adores her mother.
(25:30):
I,
you know,
I come from a family of four kids and,
you know,
two parent home and I just,
um,
I tried to,
I tried to make her history different from mine because I didn't want her.
Although,
you know,
inevitably because we have the same job,
we have the same skill set,
we have the same outlook on the industry because it's just too good an opportunity to talk about that.
(25:57):
And,
you know,
and how can I talk about an industry?
I worked in for 30 years without,
you know,
my,
I mean,
I have to,
I have nothing to use.
But my point of view,
right?
I have four series with four different sleuths.
Each,
you know,
unique in their own way,
but each one is like me in some way also,
(26:19):
you know,
my very first character was Lola Cruz.
She's a Latina P I um very much,
her family is very much based on my husband's family who's a first generation Mexican American.
And,
you know,
just I really wanted to celebrate the culture and the food and the music and,
you know,
their relationship and all of this stuff.
And I always have said that she Lola is my alter ego if I were younger,
(26:41):
Latina and I,
and sexier,
you know,
but all,
as I said earlier,
you know,
all of my books have certain themes in them.
They have these strong female relationships,
they all have murder because I'm like you,
that's what I gravitate towards with my reading.
For the most part,
they all have,
you know,
sort of the central themes that are meaningful to me.
(27:04):
And so as you said,
you can't help but infuse your protagonist or protagonists with some of those traits or beliefs or value systems because,
you know,
that's,
they're part of us,
they really are part of us.
It's easier to make your supporting characters divergent.
But you,
you know,
it's,
they are the ones we're rooting for.
(27:26):
And so they are,
I think very much part of us,
I think it's inevitable.
Um And so why not embrace,
why not embrace it?
Um And I'm with you,
uh uh I need something in the book to hang on to in terms of um I don't wanna say moral,
(27:49):
I just wanna say some sort of meaningful issue.
Um that is in some,
it,
it either central or very important to the story.
Um So,
uh which,
you know,
in this case,
(28:10):
well,
there are a couple of things,
I mean,
there are a couple of the two things that were most important to me,
whether they,
you know,
came through complete.
I mean,
obviously,
I think um the me too situation uh was central to the book,
but also the mentoring part like,
um,
Joey has a very close relationship with a production assistant who's a young costumer who,
(28:35):
you know,
looks up to her and is very talented and wants to,
um,
wants to make his way in the film industry and she sort of sees herself in him and it's important to her to nurture young talent like that.
And that's I wanted to make that sort of a balancing point to the sexual predation,
(28:57):
which is unfortunately still an element that exists within the film industry.
Um It's just part of the culture that is very slow to change.
Um And,
but the mentoring part is very important in costuming especially and I think in most elements at most at crafts within industry,
(29:21):
the industry like props camera,
you know,
you see people mentoring the younger people because they,
the fact of the matter is there's really no way to learn how to make a movie except to be on a movie.
Um As you can't even in the best film schools that they do a pretty good job at places like UCL A and uh and US C is what I really meant,
(29:45):
but UCL A too and NYU,
but it's really hard to learn.
You can't learn what a big movies.
Hollywood,
professional,
big movie set is like until you're on one,
you just can't replicate that experience in a classroom or a lab or anything like that.
So people have to learn on the job.
So it's important that the people who've been doing it take the time.
(30:09):
There's,
there are no training programs for this stuff.
So it's important to train the people who are working with you so that there's going to be some continuity of professionalism and skill within the industry.
Um or,
and,
and it's,
and because there are hundreds of people working on a big Hollywood movie that there could be 500 people in the group easily.
(30:36):
And so your community,
your coworkers are very important to your everyday working experience.
Nobody,
um nobody makes a movie on their own.
Nobody designs a movie on their own.
There's a whole team of people that need to work together.
So um just that the basic level of camaraderie um collaboration skill so that you can rely and uh rely on the people who you're working with and they can rely on you.
(31:09):
It's just a,
a uh a craft that's very interdependent.
And so uh community is,
is key.
And um anyway,
so that I,
I wanted to,
that I wanted to emphasize that in the book,
given how vast those communities are working on a film,
(31:31):
obviously,
you had to really rein it in,
you know,
still capture sort of the overall experience and um you know,
give the reader a feeling of that sort of broad,
broad experience.
But in terms of uh Joey's immediate community,
(31:52):
how,
who,
how did you choose the characters that were going to be significant in her life and in her community when you had such a vast pool to pull from.
Right.
Well,
iii,
I went back to,
you know,
the tried and true.
What was my day like on a film?
(32:12):
So,
um and then I chose characters or,
and in e every one of the characters is based either on like mallow,
the production assistant is based on any number of both male and female young costumers.
(32:34):
I've worked with over the years who just were like,
um,
so inspirational in and of themselves because they loved what,
you know,
they had a love for the work and an excitement about the industry.
And after you've been doing it for 25 years or so,
and,
you know,
maybe you get on a job that is uh a little bit more pressurized or draining.
(32:56):
It's sometimes hard to,
you know,
reconnect with that enthusiasm and having kids around like that are just like,
you know,
give you a,
a give you an extra hm,
excitement about what you're doing and excitement seeing them blossom.
So ma really ignites your own passion.
(33:20):
Absolutely.
In fact,
um,
you know,
in the last the last few years,
uh of the industry,
things were the industry is in major transition right now,
even more so than,
you know,
five years ago,
56 years ago when I left major transition,
that's just the nature of the beast.
But in the last 10 and especially five or six years,
(33:43):
the industry,
I was just like,
I'm not even recognizing this business very much anymore.
I mean,
it's changed so vastly from when I started out,
I just was like,
you know,
there's nothing to do but accept it and look for what,
you know,
look for what you can,
um,
you can connect with.
(34:04):
And the thing that really kept me going those last years was that I decided I was just going to be there for the people in my department that,
you know,
that was going to be my reason for coming to work every day.
And,
you know,
and yes,
the,
yes,
the job.
But,
you know,
I really did get a little tired of,
(34:25):
you know,
spandex,
um,
superhero suits and,
you know,
armor and all,
you know,
it's fine.
It just wasn't my thing.
So,
is that,
is that primarily what you mean when you say the industry is changing so much that we're going away from those character driven slower paced movies and more into,
you know,
all of the Barbie and the superhero and things like that,
(34:48):
these bigger Blockbusters or are there other ways that it's changing?
Um,
ok,
if I,
if I start going off too much,
just like you say,
ok,
because this is like one of my,
um,
you know,
the industry started changing.
Yeah,
like,
at least 20 years ago in terms of,
(35:10):
and it happened before this.
But you I really started seeing the impact of it about 20 years ago.
Um,
but studios are all run by corporations now and there's very little creative power left or freedom left within the real filmmakers hands.
(35:30):
I mean,
there are still a few of them out there.
Ron Howard.
I mean,
Clint Eastwood.
God bless him.
He's still hanging on and Barry Levinson,
Martin Scorsese,
but mostly the younger,
uh,
Quentin Tarantino,
I don't particularly like his work,
but I realize he's a genius and I,
(35:51):
he's a true film historian and he loves the industry and he is a real filmmaker,
but mostly it's these corporate types who don't have enough creative vision to understand that everybody wants a story to be told all they can,
um all they can understand and this is not even,
(36:15):
this is not even a criticism against them personally,
bless you.
Um They don't understand the product they're making,
they don't know how to make films,
they don't know why they work or why they don't work and they don't trust the people who do know,
like Scorsese,
like,
you know,
the filmmakers who are coming up who are,
(36:36):
have the kind of vision that Scorsese does.
They won't trust those people.
All they can see is what's worked at the box office before.
And that's why we get a million different Sequels.
There's another reason too,
which I,
uh which I mentioned in the book,
which is around 2008,
around the crash,
the market also fell out from under the DVD.
(36:58):
Uh And that was a third of the studio's income.
So they needed to look for emerging markets where they could really rake it,
you know,
replace that income.
And a lot of the West is saturated in terms of what they can really further ex you know,
how they can expand.
(37:20):
So they uh they're looking to expand into China and India and where there's a lot where there,
but the language barrier,
the cultural barriers preclude doing something like a curious case,
Benjamin button.
Whereas the Avengers,
they're immediately recognizable as characters.
(37:40):
There's mostly action.
Um There's no complicated dialogue or cultural humor or,
you know,
even character that you have to like there just isn't any subtlety,
it is what it is and that's the product.
And so there are a lot of reasons it's changing.
Um But so,
(38:01):
so you chose the superhero movie,
we talked about that a bit and then you mentioned the next um book is based on a 19 thirties film.
So how do you deal with that film being made,
given the climate of filmmaking today?
And is there kind of this um you know,
(38:23):
this uh separation of reality versus what you're creating in fiction?
Like,
would the movie that you are writing about next be made today?
It could be um but it would,
it would need um a actually,
I've gotta be honest,
I based it on The Aviator,
(38:45):
which is,
um,
which is a movie I also worked on,
um,
and it could be made today.
I mean,
it would be like Oppenheimer,
maybe,
you know,
it would be that,
that level of a list movie that love that same,
you know,
sort of period.
So it could be made today.
It would be like,
(39:07):
maybe the only movie that's being made in Hollywood like that.
But it could be.
So,
um,
and I do II,
I don't attach anybody real to it,
but I attach to,
uh,
actors who are supposedly like,
you know,
two of the biggest stars working,
uh,
in the industry.
(39:27):
So to justify the fact that,
you know,
it is being made and it's being made in Hollywood.
Yeah.
Well,
yeah,
if you look at Oppenheimer in the cast for that,
that,
that tells you why it was able to be made in,
you know,
why they had the,
the money behind it,
not only to make it,
but to market it as well,
especially when against Barbie,
(39:51):
which I actually loved so much.
It was,
you know,
it was very,
it was very smart.
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(40:46):
This course covers it all.
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I do have another question um When you're writing about something that's so personal to you and so much a part of you,
your career,
you know what you've spent your life doing?
(41:08):
What are the sort of pitfalls or the obstacles that you faced aside from what you already mentioned about needing to create some distance from this world that you already were so immersed and you didn't want to necessarily write about that.
So,
aside from that,
are there other pitfalls or obstacles that,
you know,
aspiring writers,
people who are listening to as people who want to write about their real life in a fictionalized way might want to consider?
(41:34):
That's such a great question.
Yes,
there are and some of them are that um there were some uh like that scene at the scene uh in chapter two,
when the actress is being humiliated in front of the entire company by the director that was so difficult to write and it really,
(42:01):
uh I can't tell you how,
I don't even know how many times I rewrote it because I,
and with coaching from Anne and my editor when we got to the point of publication,
um it was hard to hit a balance between because at one point,
um they both said,
(42:22):
you know,
he's so awful.
Uh,
you know,
you have to and,
and it two things he's so awful and you've got to show more of her interior reactions to that.
And,
but when they said he's so awful,
you need to temper that a little bit and he's so awful and you need to show her reactions and that both of those things were difficult because like,
(42:46):
a lot of that dialogue was just,
you know,
it was just typing on my part.
It wasn't like making anything up,
it was just like stuff I'd seen and it's kind of like,
uh,
I mean,
I can see your agent and your editor's point in the sense that do we believe that these things really happened,
you know,
(43:06):
they're so extreme.
Is it hyperbolic?
You know,
and you know,
that it's true,
but in truth being stranger than fiction and all of that,
but we have to create it.
So it's accessible for the reader.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I,
and I,
and when they said that I did understand that and it was still,
it was still a challenge for me because I was so emotionally,
(43:31):
you know,
and meshed in it,
which is part of the reason that I was hesitant to go there in the first place,
you know,
and I didn't have to write about that aspect of the film industry.
But it's,
it's,
you know,
something that was,
that's really important to me and really affected my career and a lot of other people's careers too.
(43:51):
And I'm not saying that I'm not,
I don't feel sorry for myself in any way.
I was incredibly lucky and I am grateful for my years in film.
But that is a fact that it was a dynamic that was there every day and 11 thing I wanted to do with that was to,
(44:11):
you know,
turn it on its ear a little bit and explore how,
if you're in the middle of that situation,
what can you do and what should you do and at least you should be thinking about it.
What can you do to change it?
Even if you feel like you're powerless um because of the power dynamic in that industry and in other industries,
(44:36):
you know,
in a way you're empowering or showing people how they can respond,
even if they're in a different situation or a different industry,
you know,
you,
you're setting up something that we can learn from.
Right.
Hopefully.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
Which is why I had her,
especially at the end,
you know,
really worry about the,
(44:57):
the ways that she,
you know,
went along with or enabled the director,
even if you know,
her only choice in the matter,
which is really the case is to say,
no,
I won't do that.
Ok,
you're fired,
right?
Um Because like every,
especially in film,
(45:18):
there's no human resources,
every film is its own microcosm of freelance employees who come together for a very short period of time to do a specific project.
So even though it may be the under the auspices of the studio,
that studio really has no day to day involvement,
(45:40):
they have,
they have complete control over,
you know,
budget and what's being done CRE creatively,
but they have no say about the day to day operation of,
you know,
interactions with the employees among themselves.
It's like,
it's very much a military and it has to be this way in lots of ways because there's so many people and there has to be a chain of command or things will degenerate into chaos immediately.
(46:11):
So there's a definite chain of command.
So that,
that you brought up a good question for me though,
uh given the fact that every film is its own microcosm,
you know,
community,
how are you dealing with that with Joey and the next book?
Because we don't have the same,
does she have the same,
you know,
small group of community that's going to be on the next film that she works on as well.
(46:35):
And is that sort of creative license because that doesn't actually happen?
Uh,
she,
there are certain people who,
uh,
show up in the next one and what will happen once you've been working for a while?
Is that?
So,
you know,
you'll get on a movie and maybe you'll have the ability to recommend other people or,
(46:58):
you know,
you,
uh,
I mean,
that often happens or you're working at like Clint Eastwood,
for example,
always has the same people working.
And so if you,
um,
they are just opportunities,
it doesn't always happen.
But there,
(47:18):
and certainly you can end up on a film where,
you know,
hardly anybody.
Although the longer you work in film,
the rarer that is because even though it's a big community of people,
it's really smaller than it seems,
especially within the different crafts.
So anyway,
she does have the same supervisor,
Bill Nichols is on it and she brings on the same Zephyr Tomomasu,
(47:43):
the principal costumer.
And then,
um,
she,
you know,
she has reason to contact Maggie Fuller who is the investigative reporter who,
you know,
she was sort of frenemies with during final cut and she has reason to tap her for some,
(48:05):
um,
insight in this next one.
So you make it work.
Right.
Right.
Ok.
So,
so there are new people,
certainly,
but not everybody's completely unfamiliar.
Yeah.
Ok.
Because that's,
you know,
that's part of the um little cozy mystery genre is that you have this commu tight knit community,
(48:26):
right?
That,
that goes from one book to the next to the next to the next.
You always have to introduce new characters because somebody has to get killed off that isn't,
you know,
beloved.
So,
you know,
it's finding a balance between that,
but it seems to me that this is a little trickier if you want to stay really true to how it is in the industry,
but you can also take license.
(48:46):
So I mean,
we are murdering people over and over.
So there is some creative license there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um and uh I,
I do introduce a couple of characters in this new one that I be,
you know,
if I'm lucky enough to continue with the series,
I think they're going to be like with her forever.
(49:09):
So,
yeah,
and one of them is a dog.
Yes,
we love our,
we love our dogs,
don't we?
And our cats.
Um All right,
y'all.
So final cut,
first book in the Hollywood mystery by Marjorie mccown.
Thank you so much for being here.
This was fascinating.
I love talking with you.
(49:31):
It's been nice talking with you.
Thank you.
Well,
thank you.
And Marjorie you have a special gift for a listener.
Can we talk about that for a sec?
Yes.
Thank you.
I would love to give a signed copy of final cut,
send a copy of final cut to one of your listeners.
That is great.
(49:52):
See,
I have one right here,
signed.
Um I will have the information in the show notes for people to fill out their entry.
And then a week from the release of this podcast,
a winner will be chosen and contacted.
So everybody look in the show notes right at the top for that link to the form to fill out an entry for a chance to win a signed copy by Marjorie mccown of final cut.
(50:21):
Thank you so much for offering that to the readers.
Thanks again for being here.
Best of luck with this series.
And whenever I'm sorry,
what was the next one called Starstruck,
Starstruck.
Whenever that comes out,
I would love to talk again,
find another topic.
I would love that,
you know,
we can talk forever,
right and inspire people.
(50:41):
Hopefully,
hopefully.
Yes,
yes.
Um ok.
So again,
thanks for being here so much.
Thank you,
Melissa.
This has been really fun.
Thank you so much for listening and spending your time with me today everyone.
I'm Melissa Bourbon and this is the Writer Spark podcast.
(51:02):
Take a moment to visit our website at www dot writer spark academy dot com.
Check out our courses,
our resources and all the content there and I will see you next time until then.
Happy writing.
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