December 24, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode of You Are the Current Resident, we dive into NALC's pivotal collective bargaining history with former Chief of Staff Jim Sauber.
More information about the Tentative Agreement is available at NALC.org/contract.
Have questions you'd like answered on the podcast? Email social@nalc.org.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Hello, brothers, sisters,and friends, and welcome to
You are the Current Resident podcast.
This is the official podcast of theNational Association of Letter Carriers,
the union that represents 280,000 activeand retired city letter carriers employed
by the United States Postal Service.
I'm Ed Morgan, and today we'redoing things a little bit different.
(00:29):
Two weeks to go in our Leadership AcademyWeek 3 class, as always, we had
Jim Sauber come out and do a classon the history of collective bargaining.
We got a lot of good feedbackfrom the class, and they thought that we
should put a podcast out,especially during the tentative agreement
and the voting on that,just to give you a history of collective
bargaining, what we've been throughthrough the years and what obstacles
(00:51):
and other things that we're facingin this collective bargaining time.
We have on today, Emeritus Chiefof Staff, Jim Sauber.
Hey, Jim, thank you for coming on.Great to be here.
Thanks, Ed.
Can you give us a little bitof biography about what you've done
with the NALC and the Postal Service?
Sure.I grew up in Michigan, outside of Detroit.
(01:13):
I'm from a family of auto workers.
I've been around the labor movementmost of my life.
Unfortunately, because ofmy dad's local, I was able
to go to University of Michigan,where I studied labor economics.
I pretty much spent mostof my career with the NALC.
I was hired in 1985 asa research economist.
Over the years, I servedas a director of research.
(01:35):
Then for 16 years, I was chiefof staff, first to President Bill Young
and then to President Fred Rolando.
I retired at the end of 2022.
But I have stayed on as a contractorto help out on special projects,
which I really feel a great dealof satisfaction to be able to continue
(01:56):
my role with NALC in whatever way I can.
I just I just want to thank all themembers for the really great working life
that I got in this great union.
It's really a pleasureto be with you today.
Thank you.
This is our 15th roundof collecting bargaining.
Can you give us the big picture fromwhere we started to where we are now?
(02:17):
Well, yeah.
The modern history of the NALC, of course,started with the 1970-1970 strike.
Up to that point, what we alwaysrefer to it inside the NALC was we lived
under a regime of collective begging.
Between 1889 and 1970, the only wayletter carriers could ever get
a raise or any improvement intheir working conditions was to basically
(02:41):
go hat in hand to the United StatesCongress and basically lobby for it.
That's what the union,for a good chunk of its history,
we were a lobbying operation.
It was very difficult.
There are oftentimes,there would be almost decades
that would go by between pay increases.
Politicians, in general,were very reluctant to raise pay and made
(03:04):
the working conditions and the standardof living for letter carriers really
suffered as a result.
Thanks to the strike, we woncollective bargaining rights in 1970.
And so we moved from collective beggingto collective bargaining.
As you mentioned, there's actuallythis is a 16th round of bargaining.
We've had 15 completed rounds.
(03:26):
And then depending on what happens withthis tentative agreement, we'll we'll
have finished the 16th contract.
Over that period, it's been
a huge variety of different environments.
But the one constant has been thatwe have the right to sit across the table
(03:47):
for management and have a sayin our pay and working conditions.
That's been a huge benefit forletter carriers and other postal workers.
Can you explain theinterest arbitration process to Sure.
Let me just step back and just say, underthe Postal Reorganization Act, which is
the legislation that really created themodern postal service, we went from being
(04:12):
a taxpayer-supported government agencyto being a self-supporting...
Essentially, it was initiallyset up as a nonprofit corporation.
But under that legislation,postal workers, for the first time,
were covered by private sector laborlaw, the National Labor Relations Act.
But The big difference was that unlikeprivate sector workers and employers,
(04:34):
if they couldn't get an agreementin collective bargaining,
the workers either had a choice to strike,to go on strike,
or even sometimes management would lockout the workers to try to force
changes in these agreements.
After the strike, Congress really neverwanted to have that disruption again.
The one key differenceunder the NLRA is that we have
(04:57):
binding interest arbitration.
It's It's uniquein the federal government.
Basically, many of our listenersknow about rights arbitration,
where you have an arbitrationover what the meaning of our contract is.
In interest arbitration, it's actuallya battle over what's in the contract,
the contents of the contract,the provisions of the contract.
(05:20):
So under our system,it's a tripartite system,
meaning that the union gets to namean arbitrator,
postal management gets to namean arbitrator, and together they choose
a neutral chairmanof the Arbitration Board to hear
the case that's presented to them.
Under the law, basically every provisionof the contract is subject to change
(05:41):
in the interest arbitration process.
Basically, either partycan make any proposal to change
any provision of the contract.
It can be quite dramatic,have quite dramatic effects
on our national agreements.
If you got to go into it withyour eyes wide open because it's risky
(06:02):
in that you can win and you can lose.
But it is also in a time when mostunions, the power of the strike has
been diminished over time as there's beena lot of negative court decisions
that have really weakened the rightto strike in the United States.
This process actually gives usa real chance to make our case
(06:24):
on the merits before a neutral chairman.
It's a pretty unique process.
I think out of the 16 roundsof bargaining, we've had six of them
have gone to interest arbitration.
It's not an unusual thing.
In the course of my career, I'vebeen involved in just about every one
since the 1991 Mittenfall Arbitration.
(06:46):
I'm a big fan of the process.
I think it gives workers a real shotat making their case on the merits.
Can we get into colas now?
Can you explain what they are?
There's been a lot of talkamong the membership about colas
and exactly they are.
If you could get a detailinto that, I appreciate it.
Sure.
The cola provision of our contracthas been extremely important to us.
(07:10):
In fact, more than half of all thewage increases that we've ever negotiated
have come out of our COLA clause.
These cost of living adjustments,it's actually an innovation
that was invented by the UAW,my dad's union, back in the 1940s.
There was a time in whichalmost every union contractor
(07:32):
in the country had a COLA Clause.
I think at one point, about 60 %of contracts, just in the modern history
of the Pulse Service, there was a timein that early '90s where 60 %
of contracts the COLA clauses.
Over time, they fell out of favor, butthe NLC has always held on to our COLA,
and I think strategically, it's madeall the difference in the world.
(07:55):
Basically, our COLA is basedon movements in the consumer price index.
We basically get about 55to 60% of any increase in inflation
is covered just by the costof living adjustments that we have.
We get these adjustments twice a year.
It's been that way since the early '70s,and It's been incredibly valuable
(08:17):
to us just over time.
Like I said, half of our increaseshave come from them.
But it really protects youagainst these unforeseen events
like we've just been through.
In the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic,we there was a huge surge of inflation
that nobody anticipated back
when the 2019 contract was being settled.
(08:39):
And thank goodness we had it, becauseI think over $10,000 annually in raises
for our top-step carriers, about 6,500of it came from the COLA Clause.
And so it's something that just about
every union president in the history
of the NALC has a higher priorityof maintaining the COLA.
(09:02):
And it's been a real battle becausethe Postal Service over the years
has tried multiple times to get ridof the COLA clause or to change it
to reduce the formula we use.
We have a very good formulabased on a 1967 version
of the Coda, of the CPI, rather.
And many unions don't have...
They have a much less generousCOLA formula that maybe
(09:25):
covers 20 or 25 % of inflation.
And we've maintaineda high-quality cola all these years.
And so I think that's alwaysbeen a key strategic goal of every round
of bargaining, is to maintain that cola.
The Postal Services has tried almost everyarbitration we've ever had
They've tried to either eliminate the colaaltogether or to change it pretty
(09:49):
dramatically, either change the formulato make it less generous,
or they've tried in a couple of periodsin the 1990s, they tried to put a trigger
factor into it, which would have meantthat no colas would be paid unless
inflation got up over 4% or over 3%.
That's a common thing.
A good example of that is theUnited Parcil Service contract,
(10:13):
the UPS drivers have a cola Cola Claus
in their contract, but it only is paid
once inflation exceeds 3%.
That's had a huge dramatic differencebetween them, their contract, and ours.
I just looked it up Since 2012,
NALC has gotten about $15,000 annually
(10:35):
in colas as a result of our cola clause.
During that same period,UPS got about 2,500.
It's a huge difference in payouts.
When you compare contracts,it's important to really take into effect
the total amount of colasversus general wage increases.
(10:56):
When we talk about collective bargaining,can you talk about the impact that
it's had on the NALC and our members?
Sure.
I think ifyou just look back in that period when we
talked about collective begging,it's just been a huge difference between
the standard of living that carriers hadin the early 1970s versus now,
(11:17):
and it's all attributable toour right to collective bargaining.
We basically moved from a job that putpeople as basically working poor, many
big cities in New York City, carriersin the '60s and '70s, early '70s,
couldn't qualify for welfare benefits.
The pay was so low.
But winning that strike and winningthe right to collective bargaining
(11:40):
moved the ladder carrierjob solidly into the middle class.
And I just Looking back between 1971 and
2023, thanks to collective bargaining,
there were 140 separate wage increasesnegotiated over the last 53 years.
There were 56 general increasesThere were 82 cost of the living
(12:02):
adjustments and two pay upgrades.
We only had one yearin that whole period in which we didn't
get at least one wage increase.
That came out of back in 2012, during
the Great session as a result of the DAS
arbitration, we actually had a year,basically a wage freeze for a year.
But in every other year, we've hadat least one general increase, and
(12:26):
usually one general increase and two Soa typical year for most of our history,
there have been three increases a year.
And that's just very unusual, not onlyamong American workers in general,
but even among unionized workers to have
such a steady set of increases over time.
(12:47):
It's allowed us to maintainthe purchasing power of our wages at
a time when a lot of working class peoplelost ground as the economy has become
more and more on equal over time.
Having that right to bargain has just
(13:08):
made all the difference in the world.
To give you a real sense of it,if you look When we look back at
the time of the 1970 postal strike,the letter carriers were part
of the general schedule of the federalgovernment, and we were a GS5 employees,
(13:29):
so general schedule, grade five employees.
At the time, we made the same pay as otherGS5 employees of the federal government.
If you look what's happened overthat history, if you look at the top step
now of GS5 federal employees,their annual salary is $49,000,
(13:50):
just a little over $49,000 annually.
Our top step, thanks to collectivebargaining, is $75,000.
In $75,000, $2,000.$1,99.
Obviously, this is beforethe tenetive agreement.
That sums up really the powerand value of collective bargaining.
The annual difference in payis nearly $25,000 annually.
(14:15):
It's a 50% improvement in payversus our pre-bargaining history.
Now, even in six, of course, thefederal government does have locality pay
in some of the biggest cities.
But even after you take that into account,For example, in San Francisco,
letter carriers make $15,000 more
annually than the top step of grade five
(14:38):
for the rest of the federal government.
The difference in New Yorkis $18,000 annually, and the difference
in Boston is $20,000 annually.
So even when you take into accountlocality pay, you can see the ability
to negotiate your wages and to havecollective bargaining has just made a
huge difference in the standard of livingof letter areas all across the country.
(15:01):
And that doesn't count all theother benefits of collective bargaining.
The fact that you have an empowered voicein the workplace where workers can,
if they have a grievance withtheir managers or their supervisors that
they have a right to union representationand they have due process rights.
That doesn't count all the improvementsin overtime and penalty overtime
(15:26):
and work hour guarantees, scheduling, allthe things that we now take for granted
in our contract have all developed overfive decades of collective bargaining.
It's had a tremendously positive effectfor our members and our union.
A lot of good stuff there, Jim.
(15:46):
We'll get in into the comparabilitydebate, and I know that's been
around a lot on social media.
Can you talk about the structureand how we get to that point
on what comparability means?
Sure.
I mean, As a famous arbitrator oncesaid, that comparability is like beauty.
It's in the eye of the beholder.
It's always been a huge debatein our collective bargaining.
(16:08):
It's really a core of collectivebargaining is what does that mean?
The reason it's importantis that it's actually built
into the Postal Reorganization Act.
The Postal Service was given a mandate inthat law that it should pay its workers
comparable compensation to comparablelevels of work in the private sector.
(16:32):
So it sounds simple, but it's actuallya quite complicated debate.
But over time, in the first few roundsof bargaining, the parties just agreed
that we should be paid like other largeunionized workforces in the country.
(16:52):
But by the time, by the end of the 1970s,there was a huge gap opened up between
the Postal Service and its unionsabout what does comparability mean?
For us, we had traditionallylooked at comparable unionized jobs.
The Pulsa Service over timestarted shifted over towards looking
(17:14):
at comparable workers in termsof the characteristics of workers,
how much education they had,training, tenure, that thing.
When we started going, there was a period
of time between 1984 and 1999, where
almost every contract went to interestarbitration, and it was all over
(17:36):
this fight over comparability.
Initially, we actually lost the argumentin the 1984 interest arbitration
with Clark Kerr.
He concluded the Postal Serviceclaimed that they were over...
That basically, letter carriersand other postal employees were overpaid
compared to comparable workers.
Clark Kerr agreed and called fora period of what he called moderate
(17:58):
restraint, meaning he wantedthe postal wages to grow more slowly
than private sector wages for a whileto bring them back in alignment.
We never agreed with that finding,but it did serve as a restraint
on our wage growth during the 1990s.
Since that time, when the Kerr Award cameout, we were actually bargaining with
(18:22):
the APW as a joint bargaining committee.
Since 1994, we've negotiatedour own contracts.
We've never lost that argumentsince with the interest arbitrator,
but it's always something we battle over.
Just bringing it to the modernday, I think most of our members
have a very practical, common senseunderstanding and comparability.
(18:44):
We often, it seems prettystraightforward to us.
We think of comparable workersas the package car drivers
for United Parcelservice.
And that's always been a big partof our argument in interest arbitration,
as we look at their wages and our wages,and we've tried to keep within
striking distance of their pay levels.
(19:05):
But even that can be...
Even when we get into arbitration,even if the Postal Service will
engage on our definition comparability.
They often will point to other deliveryworkers, mainly FedEx, which essentially
use contract workers, or Amazon.
Increasingly, Amazon is now the largestdelivery workforce in the country.
(19:27):
They're non-union.
They work for small contractors,and their pay is much, much lower
than the letter carriersand the Postal Service employees.
So it's a very important issue.
It gets arbitrated every single time.
There are certain issuesin arbitration that always
(19:47):
come up, and that's one of them.
What is the comparability standardbeing complied with?
And so both parties investa lot of energy and effort
to make their case on that issue.
Can you get into the changesto the workforce structure that we've
gotten through collective bargainingand interest arbitration?
(20:08):
Sure.
That's another big issue that comes up,is the structure of our workforce.
And If you go look at that whole historyof interest arbitration,
it's one of the central issues.
Initially, even before a posterreorganization, there was always
a small non-career workforce
(20:29):
employed by the Postal Service, which
used to be known as casual employees.
That practice goes back 100 years.
But once we had a collective
bargaining rights and we formalized
the structures of our bargaining unit.
(20:50):
This is something that'salways been in flux.
Initially, casuals, I think wehad a 5% limit on casuals for most
in the 1970s and the 1970s.
But when we got in the 1980s, the PostalService, especially during periods
of financial stress, they lookedto save money by raising the percentage
(21:10):
of non-union, non-career employees.
It's come up over and over again.
First in the early 1990s,when they were doing...
When we were going through a majorautomation program, when we switched over
to delivery point sequencing,there was a push by the Postal Service,
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knowing that they were going tobe able to, after automation,
use fewer letter carriers,if you have fewer routes,
they really pushed to create what wascalled transitional employees, TEs.
That was was a central fightof the 1991 interest arbitration
before Richard Mittenthall.
It was a period a lot likewe've experienced in recent years.
(21:55):
There was a period when the Congresswas putting huge obligations
on the Postal Service to eliminateindirect subsidies to the Postal Service.
It created big financial losses,and that led the Postal Service to
try to create these TEs.
We lost initially in the 1991 arbitration,
(22:20):
but we spent the next 10 years gradually
getting rid of them, trying to get ridof the TEs, which we eventually
was successful in doing.
But then those same pressures returned.
And so there was a new fightin the mid 2000, mid-aughts.
We had a huge fighton contract delivery service.
(22:40):
The Pulse Service started outsourcingnew delivery to these, what they call
contract delivery service.
And it really spread like wildfire
in 2004, 2004, 2004, 2004, 2004 fight
back, and eventually won that battleto get rid of contract delivery service.
(23:06):
Then, of course, more recently,everyone's aware of is we've had
the creation of city carrier assistance.
Again, this came at a period of...
At the time of the Great Recessionin 2008, 2009, it was just
a devastating period financiallyfor the Postal Service.
We lost 30% of our mail volumebecause that recession really
(23:29):
struck at the Every part ofthe mail-generating parts of the economy
is real estate and banking, peoplewho were big, heavy users of the mail.
Almost within a few years,we lost 30% of our volume,
and it created huge financial losses.
That's when it's very difficult to bean interest arbitration because
a big part of what the Postal Service willargue before an arbitrator is
(23:53):
that they just don't have the abilityto pay wage increases when they're
losing money like they were at that time.
And so as a result, we went fromabout three and a half % casuals
at the time to about 20 % CCAsas a result of the DASA Award.
And so that was a big And that's reallythat creation and what to do about it has
(24:18):
really been the main focus of the lastthree rounds of bargaining,
including the one that's still pendingright now is what What should be,
how many CCAs there should be,what should be their pay, et cetera.
So these workforce structure issuesare very tricky, and they're at the core
(24:42):
of almost every round of bargaining.
And then Layered on all that,there's always this huge function
of push for flexibility.
What percentage should be part-time?
What percentage should be full-time?
And depending on the operational needsof the postal service,
they'll for arbitratorsto give them more flexibility.
(25:03):
The union pushes back to try to make surethat people have jobs where their hours
are predictable, that they can build,handle their family life
and balance their needsof their families with their work lives.
So workforce structure is alwaysan incredibly important, not only
(25:24):
a cost factor for the Postal Service, buta quality of life factor for our members.
And that's That's something that we dealwith just in every round of bargaining.
Can you talk about the external forcesagainst the NALC and the Postal Service
over the last 20 years?
I know you just mentionedthe PAEA and the recession.
Can you just get Can yougive us a little bit more?
(25:46):
Sure.Yeah.
The period, really sincethe 2011 contract was determined,
we didn't resolve that arbitration
with the DAS panel until early 2013.
But we've referred to thisas the era of crisis bargaining.
(26:06):
The Postal Service has beenin a huge financial bind, really.
Partially, it was createdby Congress as a result of the PAEA.
That's when, as part of that legislation,Congress required the Postal Service
to start prefundingfuture retiree health benefits.
(26:28):
Basically, funding retiree healthas if it were a pension.
Basically, that's not done inany other sector of the economy.
No other federal workers do it.
No private sector workers are required todo it under ERISA or anything like that.
It had a huge negative effecton the Postal Service, really
every year up until 2021,when we finally got it repealed.
(26:52):
But it was basically a five and ahalf billion dollar hit every year on the
Postal Service, and it was put in placeat the the very same time that basically
the economy, the floor of the economydropped out with the great recession.
So it was a perfect stormof financial crisis.
And that really has a big impact onwhat happens in bargaining and certainly
(27:14):
what happens in interest arbitration.
But it's really been a period for aboutbetween 2007
and 2021, about 85 % of allthe Postal Services financial losses
could be attributed to the prefundingbattle, which is an external factor
(27:36):
that really set the table in a bad wayfor us for the last three contracts.
Unfortunately, right at the end, rightwhen we finally got out from underneath
the prefunding burden, we got justslammed by the COVID-19 pandemic.
So that's this period.
(27:56):
It was two frame with twoof the worst recessions in history.
And we lost another 20 % of our volumeas a result of the COVID pandemic.
So it's just whenever you'rein bargaining, you're at the mercy
of what's happening in the labor marketand the economy as a whole.
And That makes collective bargaininga real challenge.
(28:17):
And I don't think there's ever beena period in our history more challenging
than the last, really the last threeor four contracts have been.
In some ways, it's when the union isat its best, because
you have to realize without collectivebargaining,
and this happened all over the economywhen these recessions hit, workers,
(28:41):
they not only lost jobs,but they took pay cuts,
they lost their pensions, they losthealth benefit contributions.
When you have a union thereto fight back and to limit losses
in tough times and to make improvementsand recover as times get better,
(29:02):
that's why it's so important to havethat right to collective bargaining.
It gives you a way to respondto these challenging conditions.
Can you get into the transformationalchange of the Postal Service with the
Delivering for America plan and the lossof mail volume and how they're adapting?
Yeah.
(29:22):
I mean, the Postal Servicethroughout its history, it's actually
had to constantly change.
If you look at this, the long sweep ofhistory, when the post office department
was initially set up in our country, thisyear, next year in 2025, is going to be
the 250th anniversary of the post office.
Its initial role was largelyas a communications network.
(29:45):
It was a pre telegraph,pre-telephone world, in which
people were main source of communicationswas through letter mail.
And that gradually evolved by the Bythe end of the 19th century, as the 20th
century came about, the postal servicebecame more and more, especially as
(30:08):
technology changed, became more and moreof a business services utility, almost.
We became a key partof the financial system.
People paid their bills through the mail.
Tens of trillions of dollarsin payments would go through
the mail routinely for mortgagesand car payments and utility bills.
And as, particularly later in the 20thcentury, the Postal Service became a
(30:32):
major marketing channel for advertisers.
This is a very cost-effective,very lucrative way
to generate business for companies.
By the end of the 20th century, there wasvery little personal communications
going on, but a lot of businesswas going through mail.
(30:53):
Then with the arrivalof the Internet in the 21st century,
that's all changing again.
Little by little, And, virtually, all thefinancial mail in the payments mail has
been drifting out of the postal service.
We still do quite a lot.
Tens of billions of dollarsgo through the mail every day.
But there's just been a general movetowards electronic substitution.
(31:19):
And, fortunately, the flip sideof that is that the Internet also really
created an absolute boom in thee-commerce sector and package delivery.
And so the Postal Service, that'swhat we're in the midst of right now.
That's what this Delivering for Americaplan really is about, is it's reflecting
the fact that our letter mail volume
(31:42):
is down by about 50 % Our package volume
is up, up almost 200 %.
I think in 2012, marketing mailbecame the single largest volume
of first class mail, stopped beingour largest volume of mail.
And then in 2019, the largest The largestsource of revenue for the Postal Service
(32:03):
is now shipping in packages.
We're up to about 35 or 36 billiondollars a year in package revenue.
So we're in this huge change.
The Postal Services This network ofprocessing and sorting plants were really
built for an age of letter mail.
And so they have a huge excess capacityfor letter mail, sorting and processing.
(32:29):
And they need to build capacityfor package sorting and processing.
And that's what these sortand delivery centers are all about.
It's shifting to adapt our networkto this new reality, is that we have
a much more varied mix of mail now.
We have a lot of marketing mail,still a good chunk of first-class mail,
(32:49):
but a huge surge in packages.
And that's where the industry is going.
And so this makes bargaining, actuallyfor both sides, both for management
and for the postal unions,we're all adapting to these changes
as we negotiate new contracts.
(33:10):
It's a huge, complicated and difficulttransition that we're going through
But again, it's so valuablefor postal workers to have unions at the
table to manage these difficult times.
Talking about those difficult times,can you just get in a little bit
the victories and some of the reasonswhy it's important that we had the NALC
(33:32):
negotiating and the collective bargainingin these times?
Yeah.I look back, going back both during the
great recession and the pandemic, just
looking at other unions, they really wentthrough an incredibly difficult time.
I think of my dad's union, the UAW.
(33:52):
They had just an incredibly difficultperiod in which two of the main big three
automakers went into bankruptcy.
The UAW lost their colasas a result of that.
They had two-tier wage schedulesimplemented as a result of the auto
restructuring during the Obama years.
They basically had to take overthe financial responsibility
(34:15):
for retiree health.
Big three auto workers basicallytransfer that obligation
to the unions, essentially.
The unions actually managedit really quite well.
Even for unionized workers,it's been a difficult period.
I think in that context,the NALC did very well during
this period of crisis bargaining.
I think President Rolando had probablythe three most challenging contracts
(34:39):
in our history.
But even if you look at,we took our hits in the DASA war.
That's when we got the huge CCA workforce.
But we fought off, thanks to havinga union and thanks for having the ability
to argue for it in interest arbitration,we avoided a pure two-tier where you have
lower starting pay and of top pay.
(35:00):
We essentially came out of the DASA Awardwith basically emerging two-tier,
meaning they lowered the starting pay,but we maintained the top pay.
At the end, when people reach top pay,it doesn't matter when you were hired,
you still have that same top pay.
That was a huge victory for us, not onlybecause it raises career earnings
(35:23):
for our members, but also it maintainsthe value of their pension benefits,
their retirement income, et cetera.
Even during tough times, sometimesit's during tough times when the union
is most valuable, even whenthere's painful hits that we've taken,
we have the ability to roll back.
(35:44):
We've been doing that ever since.
Since the DASA Award,we've been slowly raising CCA pay,
and we've got to the pointwhere we have automatic conversions.
We've got better health benefits for CCAs.
We even got this agreementthat we've used for the all career
(36:06):
workforce model in certain cities.
We've actually reduced the number of CCAsfrom about 40,000 down to 28,000, And I
know the current leadership wants to keepmaking progress on that, so eventually
get back to an all career workforce.
But this is, sometimes it's hardto see it when you're going
(36:27):
through these painful times.
But just from the vantagein my long career, I feel like unions
really, really earn their stripesduring the tough times.
And I think back during the COVID crisis,there's so much to be proud of
our members, the way they stepped upand serve the country,
and helped us get through a really roughtime when everybody was
(36:49):
sheltering at home, delivering goods,delivering public health information
for the CDC, delivering masks,and testing kits.
But I also think of how proudwe should be as a union, how we just
mobilize to protect our members andto really restructure the way the work
(37:12):
was done during the COVID pandemic.
Really, served our members well.
As a result, our membersserve the country so well.
Okay.
We gave everyone a lot of history hereabout collective bargaining.
That's what the class is.
But most of our members want to knowWhat about me and what about
this collective bargaining agreement?Sure.
(37:32):
It's really up to the members.
Whatever the members decideis going to be their decision.
I'll just tell you a bit about what I'vebeen doing in this round of bargaining
as a consultant for the union.
I was brought in to help preparefor interest arbitration, which is unique
in our way of bargaining, is thatevery round of bargaining, you have
to essentially prepare for interestarbitration, even as you're bargaining.
(37:55):
Because you don't know ifyou're going to get an agreement.
And so I came in working with our law firmin New York, Cohen, Weis, and Simon,
which is really the preeminentlabor law firm in the country.
We've worked together on sixdifferent arbitrations that I've worked
with them on, and they're the best.
But we had to build our casenot knowing whether or not
(38:16):
we would reach a tentative agreement.
That was my focus on it.
Basically, what that meansis you basically recruit experts.
During interest arbitration,it It's more like a legal proceeding.
It looks a lot like a court case.
You have panels of lawyerswho call witnesses and experts.
(38:39):
They offer testimony and present dataand offer formal exhibits.
Then the lawyers take turns examiningand cross-examining the witnesses.
Well, that's what I've been workingon in this round of bargaining is hiring
witnesses, a whole slew of economiststo talk about the various issues
that you have to battle over.
(39:00):
You mentioned them earlier,comparability, what's happening
in the labor market, whatother comparable workers are getting.
But we also found labor historians tohelp us deal with situations like this.
A couple of sociologiststhat have been working on
the delivery industry in particular,heat safety experts, et cetera.
(39:20):
Meanwhile, while we're getting all thisprofessional experts lined up,
the staff of the NALC, and we have thisextraordinary group of of letter carrier
staffers up in Washington who put togetherpanels of the letter carriers
to testify on all sorts of issues.
So we have panels of CCAs, we have panelsof senior carriers, we have people
(39:44):
dealing with heat safety problems.
We have the panels on talking aboutthe difficulties and the unfairness
of the way CCAs have been overworked,
or we have expert panels on uniforms
and the rising cost of uniforms.
All that has to be put together,really, even as you're negotiating,
(40:08):
and that's what we've done.
Basically, whatever the members decide inthis ratification vote, if they decide to
accept this agreement, that's great.
Then my work on that will be done.
But if not, we are ready to goto interest arbitration if that's what
the members decide they want us to do.
And so I have to say that this roundof bargaining is really quite unique
(40:32):
in that in some ways,the macroeconomic environment
for workers, probably coming out ofthe pandemic, was probably never better.
There was a real reset in the labormarket, particularly for workers
like ours, people who work in persondoing physical labor, can't
work remotely like you did during the...
(40:54):
A lot of unions made real strong gains.
I think the auto workers have made a lot.
They've covered a lot of those hugeconcessions they had to make during the
great recession when they auto-rescuedduring the Obama administration.
And so the union contractshave been very strong.
Ups got a very strongagreement because they had a
(41:15):
very credible threat to strike.
They got really big increases because theydidn't have the cola clause that we did.
And so if you just looked aroundwhat was happening in the labor market,
this would be a great timeto go to interest arbitration.
But on the flip side is,we probably never...
The Postal Service is among its weakestpoints in its history financially.
(41:38):
They've had very big losses even afterwe got rid of the pre-funding burden
in 2021, they've had two really toughyears coming out of the pandemic
because of a huge surge in inflation.
They had a six and a half billiondollar loss in 2023 and a nine
and a half billion dollar loss in 2024.
(42:00):
It makes for a verychallenging environment.
But whatever the union needs,if the members decide they wanted to try
to do better in an interest arbitration,the union will go forward just
like it always has to put onthe best possible case that we can.
(42:21):
I think that's whatthe members can expect from us.
We'll do whatever it takes.
All right, Jim, thankyou for your time today.
I I just want to remind everybodyfrom the ballot committee
and what their words were.
If you haven't received your ballot yet,make sure you make a phone call
to NALC headquarters.
Nalc headquarters' phone number is202-393-918.
(42:44):
0614, and you can call between 9:00 AMand 4:30 PM Eastern Standard Time.
Again, that number is 202-393-0614.
If you get the answering machine, makesure you leave a message with your full
name, your branch, and your phone number,so we can make sure you get a call back
(43:06):
so that you get your ballot.
Ballets need to be in by January 13th.
Please, this is part of your union duty.Make sure you do that.
Jim, why have you here?
I'd be remiss if we didn't talk aboutthe big win that the NALC had on HR 82.
I know prior to you retiring,you had a lot to do with this
getting off the ground.
(43:26):
Do you just want to talkabout it for a little bit?
Sure, I'd be happy to.
It was really a great victory.I was laughing.
I was talking to an old friend thatused to work for the Mailhandler's Union,
and we were talking about how we startedlobbying this issue together when he
worked at the NALC back in the late '80s.
I remember going up and lobbyinga guy who was then the staff director
(43:51):
for the Senate Finance Committee,which had jurisdiction over
Social Security benefits.
He's now on television every night.
He's Lawrence O'Donnell from MSNBC.
And we lobbied him to try to...
That was within a few yearsof when those changes to the
Social Security law happened.
We were trying, even then,trying to get these provisions repealed.
(44:12):
Let's just go over what they are.
The government pension offset basicallyrequired, basically,
to eliminate spousal benefits for lettercarriers who would normally get payments
as spouses or as a survivorif they were married to somebody
who worked in the privatesector under Social Security.
For letter carriers hired under the CivilService Retirement System, they were not
(44:36):
getting credit for Social Security.
That government pension offsetcame in in 1977 and basically
wiped out spousal benefits for mostpeople, or reduced them, or sometimes,
they eliminate all of the benefits.
Then in 1983, under a really unfaircharacterization, Congress
adopted a bunch of amendmentsto the Social Security Act, and one
(45:00):
of the provisions was something calledthe Windfall Elimination Provision.
This is the name givesyou the unfairness of it.
They called it a windfall that somehowletter carriers collecting benefits
on their own work recordas private sector workers under
Social Security employment,either before they were letter carriers or
after they retired,they worked in the private sector.
(45:21):
In many cases, even with second jobsthat they had while they were working
as a letter carrier, theyearned Social Security credits.
But Congress justconsidered that double-dipping.
They called it a windfall thatpostal employees were getting both a CSRS
benefit and a Social Security benefit.
Our complaint all along was,wait a minute.
Private sector workers get pensions,too, and their Social Security benefits
(45:46):
are not reducedbecause they get this private pension.
We just didn't think it was fairto do that to CSRS retirees.
That windfall eliminationand the GPO have been really a thorn
in our side for more than 30 years.
Now, with the HR 82 being signedinto law, that Social Security Fairness
(46:11):
Act, which it took decadesof organizing and lobbying him.
And all thanks goes to the members who gottheir members of Congress to sign on,
got over that filibuster thresholdin the Senate, and convinced basically
two-thirds of bothhouses of Congress eventually supported
the deal with these provisions.
(46:31):
And so now, going forward,all our members receiving CSRS benefits
are going to get an increase in theirSocial Security benefits going forward.
And so it's just a huge victory.
I think the total figure was $196 billionover the next 10 years will now be paid
out in Social Security benefits thatwould have been eliminated otherwise.
(46:53):
It's just a tributeto the perseverance of the Union
and having that voice on Capitol Hill.
Thanks to all the members whohelped and contributed to the
Letter Carrier Political Fund and didthe grassroots lobbying it takes to get
a big change like that made.
Got it perfectly there.
(47:15):
Bipartisanship, and everyone alwaysasked, who does our money go to and where
does our grassroots efforts go to?
It went to both sidesof the aisle on this one.
So big win for the union, big winfor our retirees and the NALC,
our union in action there.
Thanks for all your efforts, Jim.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
It's great to be here with you today.Thanks.
Okay.
(47:35):
Just want to get overa few more things here.
I know we had a big increase in the unionmeetings, people going to union meetings,
talking about the tentative agreement.
Don't let that be the last union meetingyou go to until
the next tentative agreement we get.
Make sure you get involved in the union,get to your union meetings.
I know you have a busy life out there,but digging out one hour every month to
(47:58):
get to your meeting, It's so important.
We can't get things done without peoplebeing involved and being educated
and informed, so make sureyou get to your union meeting.
I also want to thank everyonefor this year and in this season.
No one knows how hard letter carrierswork unless you've done the jobs.
For me and the NALC, just thank you forall your hard work and professionalism
(48:20):
at the branch level, on your work roomfloor, and out on your routes,
deliver in the mail.
Nobody does it better than lettercarriers, and just want to
thank you for that and make sureall have a healthy and safe New Year.
Happy holidays, everybody.
That's the end of the show.
Thank you for listening to this episodeof You are the Current Resident.
Please subscribe to the podcastso that you don't miss an episode,
(48:42):
and please share the podcastwith our NALC brothers and sisters.
Make sure you follow the NALC on socialmedia on Facebook, on the app formerly
known as Twitter, Instagram, and threads.
You can find links to our accountsin the episode description on Twitter.
You can follow President Renfroat Brian Renfro, 19.
May your steward be by your sideand may your union have your back.
Thanks for listening.Happy New Year, and we'll see you soon.
Hello, brothers, sisters,and friends, and welcome to
You are the Current Resident podcast.
This is the official podcast of theNational Association of Letter Carriers,
the union that represents 280,000 activeand retired city letter carriers employed
by the United States Postal Service.
I'm Ed Morgan, and today we'redoing things a little bit different.
(00:29):
Two weeks to go in our Leadership AcademyWeek 3 class, as always, we had
Jim Sauber come out and do a classon the history of collective bargaining.
We got a lot of good feedbackfrom the class, and they thought that we
should put a podcast out,especially during the tentative agreement
and the voting on that,just to give you a history of collective
bargaining, what we've been throughthrough the years and what obstacles
(00:51):
and other things that we're facingin this collective bargaining time.
We have on today, Emeritus Chiefof Staff, Jim Sauber.
Hey, Jim, thank you for coming on.Great to be here.
Thanks, Ed.
Can you give us a little bitof biography about what you've done
with the NALC and the Postal Service?
Sure.I grew up in Michigan, outside of Detroit.
(01:13):
I'm from a family of auto workers.
I've been around the labor movementmost of my life.
Unfortunately, because ofmy dad's local, I was able
to go to University of Michigan,where I studied labor economics.
I pretty much spent mostof my career with the NALC.
I was hired in 1985 asa research economist.
Over the years, I servedas a director of research.
(01:35):
Then for 16 years, I was chiefof staff, first to President Bill Young
and then to President Fred Rolando.
I retired at the end of 2022.
But I have stayed on as a contractorto help out on special projects,
which I really feel a great dealof satisfaction to be able to continue
(01:56):
my role with NALC in whatever way I can.
I just I just want to thank all themembers for the really great working life
that I got in this great union.
It's really a pleasureto be with you today.
Thank you.
This is our 15th roundof collecting bargaining.
Can you give us the big picture fromwhere we started to where we are now?
(02:17):
Well, yeah.
The modern history of the NALC, of course,started with the 1970-1970 strike.
Up to that point, what we alwaysrefer to it inside the NALC was we lived
under a regime of collective begging.
Between 1889 and 1970, the only wayletter carriers could ever get
a raise or any improvement intheir working conditions was to basically
(02:41):
go hat in hand to the United StatesCongress and basically lobby for it.
That's what the union,for a good chunk of its history,
we were a lobbying operation.
It was very difficult.
There are oftentimes,there would be almost decades
that would go by between pay increases.
Politicians, in general,were very reluctant to raise pay and made
(03:04):
the working conditions and the standardof living for letter carriers really
suffered as a result.
Thanks to the strike, we woncollective bargaining rights in 1970.
And so we moved from collective beggingto collective bargaining.
As you mentioned, there's actuallythis is a 16th round of bargaining.
We've had 15 completed rounds.
(03:26):
And then depending on what happens withthis tentative agreement, we'll we'll
have finished the 16th contract.
Over that period, it's been
a huge variety of different environments.
But the one constant has been thatwe have the right to sit across the table
(03:47):
for management and have a sayin our pay and working conditions.
That's been a huge benefit forletter carriers and other postal workers.
Can you explain theinterest arbitration process to Sure.
Let me just step back and just say, underthe Postal Reorganization Act, which is
the legislation that really created themodern postal service, we went from being
(04:12):
a taxpayer-supported government agencyto being a self-supporting...
Essentially, it was initiallyset up as a nonprofit corporation.
But under that legislation,postal workers, for the first time,
were covered by private sector laborlaw, the National Labor Relations Act.
But The big difference was that unlikeprivate sector workers and employers,
(04:34):
if they couldn't get an agreementin collective bargaining,
the workers either had a choice to strike,to go on strike,
or even sometimes management would lockout the workers to try to force
changes in these agreements.
After the strike, Congress really neverwanted to have that disruption again.
The one key differenceunder the NLRA is that we have
(04:57):
binding interest arbitration.
It's It's uniquein the federal government.
Basically, many of our listenersknow about rights arbitration,
where you have an arbitrationover what the meaning of our contract is.
In interest arbitration, it's actuallya battle over what's in the contract,
the contents of the contract,the provisions of the contract.
(05:20):
So under our system,it's a tripartite system,
meaning that the union gets to namean arbitrator,
postal management gets to namean arbitrator, and together they choose
a neutral chairmanof the Arbitration Board to hear
the case that's presented to them.
Under the law, basically every provisionof the contract is subject to change
(05:41):
in the interest arbitration process.
Basically, either partycan make any proposal to change
any provision of the contract.
It can be quite dramatic,have quite dramatic effects
on our national agreements.
If you got to go into it withyour eyes wide open because it's risky
(06:02):
in that you can win and you can lose.
But it is also in a time when mostunions, the power of the strike has
been diminished over time as there's beena lot of negative court decisions
that have really weakened the rightto strike in the United States.
This process actually gives usa real chance to make our case
(06:24):
on the merits before a neutral chairman.
It's a pretty unique process.
I think out of the 16 roundsof bargaining, we've had six of them
have gone to interest arbitration.
It's not an unusual thing.
In the course of my career, I'vebeen involved in just about every one
since the 1991 Mittenfall Arbitration.
(06:46):
I'm a big fan of the process.
I think it gives workers a real shotat making their case on the merits.
Can we get into colas now?
Can you explain what they are?
There's been a lot of talkamong the membership about colas
and exactly they are.
If you could get a detailinto that, I appreciate it.
Sure.
The cola provision of our contracthas been extremely important to us.
(07:10):
In fact, more than half of all thewage increases that we've ever negotiated
have come out of our COLA clause.
These cost of living adjustments,it's actually an innovation
that was invented by the UAW,my dad's union, back in the 1940s.
There was a time in whichalmost every union contractor
(07:32):
in the country had a COLA Clause.
I think at one point, about 60 %of contracts, just in the modern history
of the Pulse Service, there was a timein that early '90s where 60 %
of contracts the COLA clauses.
Over time, they fell out of favor, butthe NLC has always held on to our COLA,
and I think strategically, it's madeall the difference in the world.
(07:55):
Basically, our COLA is basedon movements in the consumer price index.
We basically get about 55to 60% of any increase in inflation
is covered just by the costof living adjustments that we have.
We get these adjustments twice a year.
It's been that way since the early '70s,and It's been incredibly valuable
(08:17):
to us just over time.
Like I said, half of our increaseshave come from them.
But it really protects youagainst these unforeseen events
like we've just been through.
In the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic,we there was a huge surge of inflation
that nobody anticipated back
when the 2019 contract was being settled.
(08:39):
And thank goodness we had it, becauseI think over $10,000 annually in raises
for our top-step carriers, about 6,500of it came from the COLA Clause.
And so it's something that just about
every union president in the history
of the NALC has a higher priorityof maintaining the COLA.
(09:02):
And it's been a real battle becausethe Postal Service over the years
has tried multiple times to get ridof the COLA clause or to change it
to reduce the formula we use.
We have a very good formulabased on a 1967 version
of the Coda, of the CPI, rather.
And many unions don't have...
They have a much less generousCOLA formula that maybe
(09:25):
covers 20 or 25 % of inflation.
And we've maintaineda high-quality cola all these years.
And so I think that's alwaysbeen a key strategic goal of every round
of bargaining, is to maintain that cola.
The Postal Services has tried almost everyarbitration we've ever had
They've tried to either eliminate the colaaltogether or to change it pretty
(09:49):
dramatically, either change the formulato make it less generous,
or they've tried in a couple of periodsin the 1990s, they tried to put a trigger
factor into it, which would have meantthat no colas would be paid unless
inflation got up over 4% or over 3%.
That's a common thing.
A good example of that is theUnited Parcil Service contract,
(10:13):
the UPS drivers have a cola Cola Claus
in their contract, but it only is paid
once inflation exceeds 3%.
That's had a huge dramatic differencebetween them, their contract, and ours.
I just looked it up Since 2012,
NALC has gotten about $15,000 annually
(10:35):
in colas as a result of our cola clause.
During that same period,UPS got about 2,500.
It's a huge difference in payouts.
When you compare contracts,it's important to really take into effect
the total amount of colasversus general wage increases.
(10:56):
When we talk about collective bargaining,can you talk about the impact that
it's had on the NALC and our members?
Sure.
I think ifyou just look back in that period when we
talked about collective begging,it's just been a huge difference between
the standard of living that carriers hadin the early 1970s versus now,
(11:17):
and it's all attributable toour right to collective bargaining.
We basically moved from a job that putpeople as basically working poor, many
big cities in New York City, carriersin the '60s and '70s, early '70s,
couldn't qualify for welfare benefits.
The pay was so low.
But winning that strike and winningthe right to collective bargaining
(11:40):
moved the ladder carrierjob solidly into the middle class.
And I just Looking back between 1971 and
2023, thanks to collective bargaining,
there were 140 separate wage increasesnegotiated over the last 53 years.
There were 56 general increasesThere were 82 cost of the living
(12:02):
adjustments and two pay upgrades.
We only had one yearin that whole period in which we didn't
get at least one wage increase.
That came out of back in 2012, during
the Great session as a result of the DAS
arbitration, we actually had a year,basically a wage freeze for a year.
But in every other year, we've hadat least one general increase, and
(12:26):
usually one general increase and two Soa typical year for most of our history,
there have been three increases a year.
And that's just very unusual, not onlyamong American workers in general,
but even among unionized workers to have
such a steady set of increases over time.
(12:47):
It's allowed us to maintainthe purchasing power of our wages at
a time when a lot of working class peoplelost ground as the economy has become
more and more on equal over time.
Having that right to bargain has just
(13:08):
made all the difference in the world.
To give you a real sense of it,if you look When we look back at
the time of the 1970 postal strike,the letter carriers were part
of the general schedule of the federalgovernment, and we were a GS5 employees,
(13:29):
so general schedule, grade five employees.
At the time, we made the same pay as otherGS5 employees of the federal government.
If you look what's happened overthat history, if you look at the top step
now of GS5 federal employees,their annual salary is $49,000,
(13:50):
just a little over $49,000 annually.
Our top step, thanks to collectivebargaining, is $75,000.
In $75,000, $2,000.$1,99.
Obviously, this is beforethe tenetive agreement.
That sums up really the powerand value of collective bargaining.
The annual difference in payis nearly $25,000 annually.
(14:15):
It's a 50% improvement in payversus our pre-bargaining history.
Now, even in six, of course, thefederal government does have locality pay
in some of the biggest cities.
But even after you take that into account,For example, in San Francisco,
letter carriers make $15,000 more
annually than the top step of grade five
(14:38):
for the rest of the federal government.
The difference in New Yorkis $18,000 annually, and the difference
in Boston is $20,000 annually.
So even when you take into accountlocality pay, you can see the ability
to negotiate your wages and to havecollective bargaining has just made a
huge difference in the standard of livingof letter areas all across the country.
(15:01):
And that doesn't count all theother benefits of collective bargaining.
The fact that you have an empowered voicein the workplace where workers can,
if they have a grievance withtheir managers or their supervisors that
they have a right to union representationand they have due process rights.
That doesn't count all the improvementsin overtime and penalty overtime
(15:26):
and work hour guarantees, scheduling, allthe things that we now take for granted
in our contract have all developed overfive decades of collective bargaining.
It's had a tremendously positive effectfor our members and our union.
A lot of good stuff there, Jim.
(15:46):
We'll get in into the comparabilitydebate, and I know that's been
around a lot on social media.
Can you talk about the structureand how we get to that point
on what comparability means?
Sure.
I mean, As a famous arbitrator oncesaid, that comparability is like beauty.
It's in the eye of the beholder.
It's always been a huge debatein our collective bargaining.
(16:08):
It's really a core of collectivebargaining is what does that mean?
The reason it's importantis that it's actually built
into the Postal Reorganization Act.
The Postal Service was given a mandate inthat law that it should pay its workers
comparable compensation to comparablelevels of work in the private sector.
(16:32):
So it sounds simple, but it's actuallya quite complicated debate.
But over time, in the first few roundsof bargaining, the parties just agreed
that we should be paid like other largeunionized workforces in the country.
(16:52):
But by the time, by the end of the 1970s,there was a huge gap opened up between
the Postal Service and its unionsabout what does comparability mean?
For us, we had traditionallylooked at comparable unionized jobs.
The Pulsa Service over timestarted shifted over towards looking
(17:14):
at comparable workers in termsof the characteristics of workers,
how much education they had,training, tenure, that thing.
When we started going, there was a period
of time between 1984 and 1999, where
almost every contract went to interestarbitration, and it was all over
(17:36):
this fight over comparability.
Initially, we actually lost the argumentin the 1984 interest arbitration
with Clark Kerr.
He concluded the Postal Serviceclaimed that they were over...
That basically, letter carriersand other postal employees were overpaid
compared to comparable workers.
Clark Kerr agreed and called fora period of what he called moderate
(17:58):
restraint, meaning he wantedthe postal wages to grow more slowly
than private sector wages for a whileto bring them back in alignment.
We never agreed with that finding,but it did serve as a restraint
on our wage growth during the 1990s.
Since that time, when the Kerr Award cameout, we were actually bargaining with
(18:22):
the APW as a joint bargaining committee.
Since 1994, we've negotiatedour own contracts.
We've never lost that argumentsince with the interest arbitrator,
but it's always something we battle over.
Just bringing it to the modernday, I think most of our members
have a very practical, common senseunderstanding and comparability.
(18:44):
We often, it seems prettystraightforward to us.
We think of comparable workersas the package car drivers
for United Parcelservice.
And that's always been a big partof our argument in interest arbitration,
as we look at their wages and our wages,and we've tried to keep within
striking distance of their pay levels.
(19:05):
But even that can be...
Even when we get into arbitration,even if the Postal Service will
engage on our definition comparability.
They often will point to other deliveryworkers, mainly FedEx, which essentially
use contract workers, or Amazon.
Increasingly, Amazon is now the largestdelivery workforce in the country.
(19:27):
They're non-union.
They work for small contractors,and their pay is much, much lower
than the letter carriersand the Postal Service employees.
So it's a very important issue.
It gets arbitrated every single time.
There are certain issuesin arbitration that always
(19:47):
come up, and that's one of them.
What is the comparability standardbeing complied with?
And so both parties investa lot of energy and effort
to make their case on that issue.
Can you get into the changesto the workforce structure that we've
gotten through collective bargainingand interest arbitration?
(20:08):
Sure.
That's another big issue that comes up,is the structure of our workforce.
And If you go look at that whole historyof interest arbitration,
it's one of the central issues.
Initially, even before a posterreorganization, there was always
a small non-career workforce
(20:29):
employed by the Postal Service, which
used to be known as casual employees.
That practice goes back 100 years.
But once we had a collective
bargaining rights and we formalized
the structures of our bargaining unit.
(20:50):
This is something that'salways been in flux.
Initially, casuals, I think wehad a 5% limit on casuals for most
in the 1970s and the 1970s.
But when we got in the 1980s, the PostalService, especially during periods
of financial stress, they lookedto save money by raising the percentage
(21:10):
of non-union, non-career employees.
It's come up over and over again.
First in the early 1990s,when they were doing...
When we were going through a majorautomation program, when we switched over
to delivery point sequencing,there was a push by the Postal Service,
(21:31):
knowing that they were going tobe able to, after automation,
use fewer letter carriers,if you have fewer routes,
they really pushed to create what wascalled transitional employees, TEs.
That was was a central fightof the 1991 interest arbitration
before Richard Mittenthall.
It was a period a lot likewe've experienced in recent years.
(21:55):
There was a period when the Congresswas putting huge obligations
on the Postal Service to eliminateindirect subsidies to the Postal Service.
It created big financial losses,and that led the Postal Service to
try to create these TEs.
We lost initially in the 1991 arbitration,
(22:20):
but we spent the next 10 years gradually
getting rid of them, trying to get ridof the TEs, which we eventually
was successful in doing.
But then those same pressures returned.
And so there was a new fightin the mid 2000, mid-aughts.
We had a huge fighton contract delivery service.
(22:40):
The Pulse Service started outsourcingnew delivery to these, what they call
contract delivery service.
And it really spread like wildfire
in 2004, 2004, 2004, 2004, 2004 fight
back, and eventually won that battleto get rid of contract delivery service.
(23:06):
Then, of course, more recently,everyone's aware of is we've had
the creation of city carrier assistance.
Again, this came at a period of...
At the time of the Great Recessionin 2008, 2009, it was just
a devastating period financiallyfor the Postal Service.
We lost 30% of our mail volumebecause that recession really
(23:29):
struck at the Every part ofthe mail-generating parts of the economy
is real estate and banking, peoplewho were big, heavy users of the mail.
Almost within a few years,we lost 30% of our volume,
and it created huge financial losses.
That's when it's very difficult to bean interest arbitration because
a big part of what the Postal Service willargue before an arbitrator is
(23:53):
that they just don't have the abilityto pay wage increases when they're
losing money like they were at that time.
And so as a result, we went fromabout three and a half % casuals
at the time to about 20 % CCAsas a result of the DASA Award.
And so that was a big And that's reallythat creation and what to do about it has
(24:18):
really been the main focus of the lastthree rounds of bargaining,
including the one that's still pendingright now is what What should be,
how many CCAs there should be,what should be their pay, et cetera.
So these workforce structure issuesare very tricky, and they're at the core
(24:42):
of almost every round of bargaining.
And then Layered on all that,there's always this huge function
of push for flexibility.
What percentage should be part-time?
What percentage should be full-time?
And depending on the operational needsof the postal service,
they'll for arbitratorsto give them more flexibility.
(25:03):
The union pushes back to try to make surethat people have jobs where their hours
are predictable, that they can build,handle their family life
and balance their needsof their families with their work lives.
So workforce structure is alwaysan incredibly important, not only
(25:24):
a cost factor for the Postal Service, buta quality of life factor for our members.
And that's That's something that we dealwith just in every round of bargaining.
Can you talk about the external forcesagainst the NALC and the Postal Service
over the last 20 years?
I know you just mentionedthe PAEA and the recession.
Can you just get Can yougive us a little bit more?
(25:46):
Sure.Yeah.
The period, really sincethe 2011 contract was determined,
we didn't resolve that arbitration
with the DAS panel until early 2013.
But we've referred to thisas the era of crisis bargaining.
(26:06):
The Postal Service has beenin a huge financial bind, really.
Partially, it was createdby Congress as a result of the PAEA.
That's when, as part of that legislation,Congress required the Postal Service
to start prefundingfuture retiree health benefits.
(26:28):
Basically, funding retiree healthas if it were a pension.
Basically, that's not done inany other sector of the economy.
No other federal workers do it.
No private sector workers are required todo it under ERISA or anything like that.
It had a huge negative effecton the Postal Service, really
every year up until 2021,when we finally got it repealed.
(26:52):
But it was basically a five and ahalf billion dollar hit every year on the
Postal Service, and it was put in placeat the the very same time that basically
the economy, the floor of the economydropped out with the great recession.
So it was a perfect stormof financial crisis.
And that really has a big impact onwhat happens in bargaining and certainly
(27:14):
what happens in interest arbitration.
But it's really been a period for aboutbetween 2007
and 2021, about 85 % of allthe Postal Services financial losses
could be attributed to the prefundingbattle, which is an external factor
(27:36):
that really set the table in a bad wayfor us for the last three contracts.
Unfortunately, right at the end, rightwhen we finally got out from underneath
the prefunding burden, we got justslammed by the COVID-19 pandemic.
So that's this period.
(27:56):
It was two frame with twoof the worst recessions in history.
And we lost another 20 % of our volumeas a result of the COVID pandemic.
So it's just whenever you'rein bargaining, you're at the mercy
of what's happening in the labor marketand the economy as a whole.
And That makes collective bargaininga real challenge.
(28:17):
And I don't think there's ever beena period in our history more challenging
than the last, really the last threeor four contracts have been.
In some ways, it's when the union isat its best, because
you have to realize without collectivebargaining,
and this happened all over the economywhen these recessions hit, workers,
(28:41):
they not only lost jobs,but they took pay cuts,
they lost their pensions, they losthealth benefit contributions.
When you have a union thereto fight back and to limit losses
in tough times and to make improvementsand recover as times get better,
(29:02):
that's why it's so important to havethat right to collective bargaining.
It gives you a way to respondto these challenging conditions.
Can you get into the transformationalchange of the Postal Service with the
Delivering for America plan and the lossof mail volume and how they're adapting?
Yeah.
(29:22):
I mean, the Postal Servicethroughout its history, it's actually
had to constantly change.
If you look at this, the long sweep ofhistory, when the post office department
was initially set up in our country, thisyear, next year in 2025, is going to be
the 250th anniversary of the post office.
Its initial role was largelyas a communications network.
(29:45):
It was a pre telegraph,pre-telephone world, in which
people were main source of communicationswas through letter mail.
And that gradually evolved by the Bythe end of the 19th century, as the 20th
century came about, the postal servicebecame more and more, especially as
(30:08):
technology changed, became more and moreof a business services utility, almost.
We became a key partof the financial system.
People paid their bills through the mail.
Tens of trillions of dollarsin payments would go through
the mail routinely for mortgagesand car payments and utility bills.
And as, particularly later in the 20thcentury, the Postal Service became a
(30:32):
major marketing channel for advertisers.
This is a very cost-effective,very lucrative way
to generate business for companies.
By the end of the 20th century, there wasvery little personal communications
going on, but a lot of businesswas going through mail.
(30:53):
Then with the arrivalof the Internet in the 21st century,
that's all changing again.
Little by little, And, virtually, all thefinancial mail in the payments mail has
been drifting out of the postal service.
We still do quite a lot.
Tens of billions of dollarsgo through the mail every day.
But there's just been a general movetowards electronic substitution.
(31:19):
And, fortunately, the flip sideof that is that the Internet also really
created an absolute boom in thee-commerce sector and package delivery.
And so the Postal Service, that'swhat we're in the midst of right now.
That's what this Delivering for Americaplan really is about, is it's reflecting
the fact that our letter mail volume
(31:42):
is down by about 50 % Our package volume
is up, up almost 200 %.
I think in 2012, marketing mailbecame the single largest volume
of first class mail, stopped beingour largest volume of mail.
And then in 2019, the largest The largestsource of revenue for the Postal Service
(32:03):
is now shipping in packages.
We're up to about 35 or 36 billiondollars a year in package revenue.
So we're in this huge change.
The Postal Services This network ofprocessing and sorting plants were really
built for an age of letter mail.
And so they have a huge excess capacityfor letter mail, sorting and processing.
(32:29):
And they need to build capacityfor package sorting and processing.
And that's what these sortand delivery centers are all about.
It's shifting to adapt our networkto this new reality, is that we have
a much more varied mix of mail now.
We have a lot of marketing mail,still a good chunk of first-class mail,
(32:49):
but a huge surge in packages.
And that's where the industry is going.
And so this makes bargaining, actuallyfor both sides, both for management
and for the postal unions,we're all adapting to these changes
as we negotiate new contracts.
(33:10):
It's a huge, complicated and difficulttransition that we're going through
But again, it's so valuablefor postal workers to have unions at the
table to manage these difficult times.
Talking about those difficult times,can you just get in a little bit
the victories and some of the reasonswhy it's important that we had the NALC
(33:32):
negotiating and the collective bargainingin these times?
Yeah.I look back, going back both during the
great recession and the pandemic, just
looking at other unions, they really wentthrough an incredibly difficult time.
I think of my dad's union, the UAW.
(33:52):
They had just an incredibly difficultperiod in which two of the main big three
automakers went into bankruptcy.
The UAW lost their colasas a result of that.
They had two-tier wage schedulesimplemented as a result of the auto
restructuring during the Obama years.
They basically had to take overthe financial responsibility
(34:15):
for retiree health.
Big three auto workers basicallytransfer that obligation
to the unions, essentially.
The unions actually managedit really quite well.
Even for unionized workers,it's been a difficult period.
I think in that context,the NALC did very well during
this period of crisis bargaining.
I think President Rolando had probablythe three most challenging contracts
(34:39):
in our history.
But even if you look at,we took our hits in the DASA war.
That's when we got the huge CCA workforce.
But we fought off, thanks to havinga union and thanks for having the ability
to argue for it in interest arbitration,we avoided a pure two-tier where you have
lower starting pay and of top pay.
(35:00):
We essentially came out of the DASA Awardwith basically emerging two-tier,
meaning they lowered the starting pay,but we maintained the top pay.
At the end, when people reach top pay,it doesn't matter when you were hired,
you still have that same top pay.
That was a huge victory for us, not onlybecause it raises career earnings
(35:23):
for our members, but also it maintainsthe value of their pension benefits,
their retirement income, et cetera.
Even during tough times, sometimesit's during tough times when the union
is most valuable, even whenthere's painful hits that we've taken,
we have the ability to roll back.
(35:44):
We've been doing that ever since.
Since the DASA Award,we've been slowly raising CCA pay,
and we've got to the pointwhere we have automatic conversions.
We've got better health benefits for CCAs.
We even got this agreementthat we've used for the all career
(36:06):
workforce model in certain cities.
We've actually reduced the number of CCAsfrom about 40,000 down to 28,000, And I
know the current leadership wants to keepmaking progress on that, so eventually
get back to an all career workforce.
But this is, sometimes it's hardto see it when you're going
(36:27):
through these painful times.
But just from the vantagein my long career, I feel like unions
really, really earn their stripesduring the tough times.
And I think back during the COVID crisis,there's so much to be proud of
our members, the way they stepped upand serve the country,
and helped us get through a really roughtime when everybody was
(36:49):
sheltering at home, delivering goods,delivering public health information
for the CDC, delivering masks,and testing kits.
But I also think of how proudwe should be as a union, how we just
mobilize to protect our members andto really restructure the way the work
(37:12):
was done during the COVID pandemic.
Really, served our members well.
As a result, our membersserve the country so well.
Okay.
We gave everyone a lot of history hereabout collective bargaining.
That's what the class is.
But most of our members want to knowWhat about me and what about
this collective bargaining agreement?Sure.
(37:32):
It's really up to the members.
Whatever the members decideis going to be their decision.
I'll just tell you a bit about what I'vebeen doing in this round of bargaining
as a consultant for the union.
I was brought in to help preparefor interest arbitration, which is unique
in our way of bargaining, is thatevery round of bargaining, you have
to essentially prepare for interestarbitration, even as you're bargaining.
(37:55):
Because you don't know ifyou're going to get an agreement.
And so I came in working with our law firmin New York, Cohen, Weis, and Simon,
which is really the preeminentlabor law firm in the country.
We've worked together on sixdifferent arbitrations that I've worked
with them on, and they're the best.
But we had to build our casenot knowing whether or not
(38:16):
we would reach a tentative agreement.
That was my focus on it.
Basically, what that meansis you basically recruit experts.
During interest arbitration,it It's more like a legal proceeding.
It looks a lot like a court case.
You have panels of lawyerswho call witnesses and experts.
(38:39):
They offer testimony and present dataand offer formal exhibits.
Then the lawyers take turns examiningand cross-examining the witnesses.
Well, that's what I've been workingon in this round of bargaining is hiring
witnesses, a whole slew of economiststo talk about the various issues
that you have to battle over.
(39:00):
You mentioned them earlier,comparability, what's happening
in the labor market, whatother comparable workers are getting.
But we also found labor historians tohelp us deal with situations like this.
A couple of sociologiststhat have been working on
the delivery industry in particular,heat safety experts, et cetera.
(39:20):
Meanwhile, while we're getting all thisprofessional experts lined up,
the staff of the NALC, and we have thisextraordinary group of of letter carrier
staffers up in Washington who put togetherpanels of the letter carriers
to testify on all sorts of issues.
So we have panels of CCAs, we have panelsof senior carriers, we have people
(39:44):
dealing with heat safety problems.
We have the panels on talking aboutthe difficulties and the unfairness
of the way CCAs have been overworked,
or we have expert panels on uniforms
and the rising cost of uniforms.
All that has to be put together,really, even as you're negotiating,
(40:08):
and that's what we've done.
Basically, whatever the members decide inthis ratification vote, if they decide to
accept this agreement, that's great.
Then my work on that will be done.
But if not, we are ready to goto interest arbitration if that's what
the members decide they want us to do.
And so I have to say that this roundof bargaining is really quite unique
(40:32):
in that in some ways,the macroeconomic environment
for workers, probably coming out ofthe pandemic, was probably never better.
There was a real reset in the labormarket, particularly for workers
like ours, people who work in persondoing physical labor, can't
work remotely like you did during the...
(40:54):
A lot of unions made real strong gains.
I think the auto workers have made a lot.
They've covered a lot of those hugeconcessions they had to make during the
great recession when they auto-rescuedduring the Obama administration.
And so the union contractshave been very strong.
Ups got a very strongagreement because they had a
(41:15):
very credible threat to strike.
They got really big increases because theydidn't have the cola clause that we did.
And so if you just looked aroundwhat was happening in the labor market,
this would be a great timeto go to interest arbitration.
But on the flip side is,we probably never...
The Postal Service is among its weakestpoints in its history financially.
(41:38):
They've had very big losses even afterwe got rid of the pre-funding burden
in 2021, they've had two really toughyears coming out of the pandemic
because of a huge surge in inflation.
They had a six and a half billiondollar loss in 2023 and a nine
and a half billion dollar loss in 2024.
(42:00):
It makes for a verychallenging environment.
But whatever the union needs,if the members decide they wanted to try
to do better in an interest arbitration,the union will go forward just
like it always has to put onthe best possible case that we can.
(42:21):
I think that's whatthe members can expect from us.
We'll do whatever it takes.
All right, Jim, thankyou for your time today.
I I just want to remind everybodyfrom the ballot committee
and what their words were.
If you haven't received your ballot yet,make sure you make a phone call
to NALC headquarters.
Nalc headquarters' phone number is202-393-918.
(42:44):
0614, and you can call between 9:00 AMand 4:30 PM Eastern Standard Time.
Again, that number is 202-393-0614.
If you get the answering machine, makesure you leave a message with your full
name, your branch, and your phone number,so we can make sure you get a call back
(43:06):
so that you get your ballot.
Ballets need to be in by January 13th.
Please, this is part of your union duty.Make sure you do that.
Jim, why have you here?
I'd be remiss if we didn't talk aboutthe big win that the NALC had on HR 82.
I know prior to you retiring,you had a lot to do with this
getting off the ground.
(43:26):
Do you just want to talkabout it for a little bit?
Sure, I'd be happy to.
It was really a great victory.I was laughing.
I was talking to an old friend thatused to work for the Mailhandler's Union,
and we were talking about how we startedlobbying this issue together when he
worked at the NALC back in the late '80s.
I remember going up and lobbyinga guy who was then the staff director
(43:51):
for the Senate Finance Committee,which had jurisdiction over
Social Security benefits.
He's now on television every night.
He's Lawrence O'Donnell from MSNBC.
And we lobbied him to try to...
That was within a few yearsof when those changes to the
Social Security law happened.
We were trying, even then,trying to get these provisions repealed.
(44:12):
Let's just go over what they are.
The government pension offset basicallyrequired, basically,
to eliminate spousal benefits for lettercarriers who would normally get payments
as spouses or as a survivorif they were married to somebody
who worked in the privatesector under Social Security.
For letter carriers hired under the CivilService Retirement System, they were not
(44:36):
getting credit for Social Security.
That government pension offsetcame in in 1977 and basically
wiped out spousal benefits for mostpeople, or reduced them, or sometimes,
they eliminate all of the benefits.
Then in 1983, under a really unfaircharacterization, Congress
adopted a bunch of amendmentsto the Social Security Act, and one
(45:00):
of the provisions was something calledthe Windfall Elimination Provision.
This is the name givesyou the unfairness of it.
They called it a windfall that somehowletter carriers collecting benefits
on their own work recordas private sector workers under
Social Security employment,either before they were letter carriers or
after they retired,they worked in the private sector.
(45:21):
In many cases, even with second jobsthat they had while they were working
as a letter carrier, theyearned Social Security credits.
But Congress justconsidered that double-dipping.
They called it a windfall thatpostal employees were getting both a CSRS
benefit and a Social Security benefit.
Our complaint all along was,wait a minute.
Private sector workers get pensions,too, and their Social Security benefits
(45:46):
are not reducedbecause they get this private pension.
We just didn't think it was fairto do that to CSRS retirees.
That windfall eliminationand the GPO have been really a thorn
in our side for more than 30 years.
Now, with the HR 82 being signedinto law, that Social Security Fairness
(46:11):
Act, which it took decadesof organizing and lobbying him.
And all thanks goes to the members who gottheir members of Congress to sign on,
got over that filibuster thresholdin the Senate, and convinced basically
two-thirds of bothhouses of Congress eventually supported
the deal with these provisions.
(46:31):
And so now, going forward,all our members receiving CSRS benefits
are going to get an increase in theirSocial Security benefits going forward.
And so it's just a huge victory.
I think the total figure was $196 billionover the next 10 years will now be paid
out in Social Security benefits thatwould have been eliminated otherwise.
(46:53):
It's just a tributeto the perseverance of the Union
and having that voice on Capitol Hill.
Thanks to all the members whohelped and contributed to the
Letter Carrier Political Fund and didthe grassroots lobbying it takes to get
a big change like that made.
Got it perfectly there.
(47:15):
Bipartisanship, and everyone alwaysasked, who does our money go to and where
does our grassroots efforts go to?
It went to both sidesof the aisle on this one.
So big win for the union, big winfor our retirees and the NALC,
our union in action there.
Thanks for all your efforts, Jim.
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
It's great to be here with you today.Thanks.
Okay.
(47:35):
Just want to get overa few more things here.
I know we had a big increase in the unionmeetings, people going to union meetings,
talking about the tentative agreement.
Don't let that be the last union meetingyou go to until
the next tentative agreement we get.
Make sure you get involved in the union,get to your union meetings.
I know you have a busy life out there,but digging out one hour every month to
(47:58):
get to your meeting, It's so important.
We can't get things done without peoplebeing involved and being educated
and informed, so make sureyou get to your union meeting.
I also want to thank everyonefor this year and in this season.
No one knows how hard letter carrierswork unless you've done the jobs.
For me and the NALC, just thank you forall your hard work and professionalism
(48:20):
at the branch level, on your work roomfloor, and out on your routes,
deliver in the mail.
Nobody does it better than lettercarriers, and just want to
thank you for that and make sureall have a healthy and safe New Year.
Happy holidays, everybody.
That's the end of the show.
Thank you for listening to this episodeof You are the Current Resident.
Please subscribe to the podcastso that you don't miss an episode,
(48:42):
and please share the podcastwith our NALC brothers and sisters.
Make sure you follow the NALC on socialmedia on Facebook, on the app formerly
known as Twitter, Instagram, and threads.
You can find links to our accountsin the episode description on Twitter.
You can follow President Renfroat Brian Renfro, 19.
May your steward be by your sideand may your union have your back.
Thanks for listening.Happy New Year, and we'll see you soon.
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