May 28, 2024 • 62 mins
Accessibility is a single word that can have a lot of impact. Every day in Canada, indeed across North America and in countries around the world, many people — especially people who have a disability — face challenges in their daily lives because the built environment we all live in, generally isn’t all that accessible.
We mark National AccessAbility Week 2024 in Canada with this episode that’s part one in a two-part series on accessibility. When things are accessible, everyone benefits — emphasis on “when.”
It’s been almost five years since the Accessible Canada Act came into force, with the goal of making Canada totally barrier free by January 1, 2040. Just what is the current state of accessibility in Canada of products, of services, of places? And will we become a truly barrier-free country over the next 16 years?
That’s what we’re exploring in this episode — think of it as a report card on the overall state of accessibility in Canada.
For this high-level barometric reading, we turned to three of the top voices on accessibility in Canada.
Listen to this engaging conversation with:
- Stephanie Cadieux, Chief Accessibility Officer of Canada
- Brad McCannell, Vice-President of Access and Inclusion at the Rick Hansen Foundation
- Lawyer and disability advocate Lorin MacDonald, who is recognized as one of Canada’s disability leaders and is highly regarded by the human rights legal community
SHOW NOTES
- Everyone’s Business: Accessibility in Canada — Report from the Chief Accessibility Officer, 2023
- Rick Hansen Foundation Accessibility CertificationTM (RHFAC) Program
- Summary of the Accessible Canada Act
- Episode 22 transcript (PDF)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dean Askin (00:00):
You Can't Spell Inclusion Without a D. The
(00:05):
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeanette Campbell and
Dean askin.
(00:26):
Accessibility, one word that canhave a lot of impact every day
in Canada, indeed, across NorthAmerica, and in countries around
the world. Many people,especially people who have a
disability face challenges intheir daily lives, because the
built environment we all livein, generally isn't all that
(00:48):
accessible. Now, we're talkinghere about the accessibility of
everything from public air andpassenger rail transport to many
buildings and businesses, toinformation to products on store
shelves to customer service topost secondary education on
university and college campuses.Hi, I'm Dean askin, and this is
(01:09):
episode 22. But you can't spellinclusion without a D. Thanks
for joining us as we markNational accessibility week
2024. With this episode, that'spart one in a two part series on
accessibility.
Jeannette Campbell (01:23):
Accessibility comes down to making sure
everything from products toservices to places are designed
so everyone can use them. Whenthings are accessible. Everyone
benefits the emphasis on when.Hello, I'm Jeannette Campbell,
back with you at the other mic.And thanks to my colleague
(01:44):
Jennifer Crowson for filling inthe past couple of episodes.
Dean Askin (01:47):
Jennifer did a great job filling in and we had fun
co-hosting back to backepisodes, Jeannette, but I have
to say it's great to have youback. I mean, it's just not
quite the same co hosting apodcast without your regular co
host.
Jeannette Campbell (02:02):
Well, thanks, Dean. And you know, it's
been almost five years since theAccessible Canada Act came into
force with the goal of makingthis country totally barrier
free by January 1, 2040. Andjust what is the current state
of accessibility in Canada ofproducts, services of places?
(02:24):
And will we truly become barrierfree over the next 16 years?
Dean Askin (02:30):
That's what we're exploring in this episode. Think
of it as a report card on theoverall state of accessibility
in Canada.
Jeannette Campbell (02:38):
To get that high level barometric reading,
we've turned to three of the topvoices on accessibility in
Canada.
Dean Askin (02:46):
In fact, we went right to the top joining us from
Ottawa, Canada's ChiefAccessibility Officer, Stephanie
Cadieux. She's in the third yearof her appointed term as C-A-O.
She has been a wheelchair usersince the age of 18. So she's
got a deep understanding ofaccessibility barriers and
issues faced by people who havea disability.
Jeannette Campbell (03:08):
And that includes some recent personal
accessibility failureexperiences with air travel
that's made national headlines.
Dean Askin (03:17):
Joining us from out west in Richmond BC is Brad
McCannell. He's theVice-president of Access and
Inclusion at the Rick HansenFoundation, Brad leads the
foundation's accessibilitycertification program and
supporting training.
Jeannette Campbell (03:31):
He's been a leader in accessibility for
almost three decades. And Bradhas extensive experience in the
practical application ofuniversal design across the
whole built environment.
Dean Askin (03:44):
He's consulted globally on accessibility for
airport authorities, the Olympicand Paralympic Games, and the
International ParalympicCommittee. Brad's also a member
of the Federal AccessibilityStandards Canada board. By the
way, Brad uses a wheelchair andhis service dog every day.
Jeannette Campbell (04:01):
And joining us from here in Ontario, Toronto
to be exact, Lorin MacDonald.She's a human rights lawyer
ranked one of Canada's top 25Most Influential lawyers by
Canadian Lawyer magazine. She'sa disability and accessibility
change maker, and an inclusion,diversity, equity and
(04:22):
accessibility champion.
Dean Askin (04:24):
Lorin is recognized as one of Canada's disability
leaders and she's highlyregarded by the human rights
legal community. That disabilitychampion recognition includes
being a member of the Canadiandisability Hall of Fame, and a
recipient of the Order ofOntario.
Jeannette Campbell (04:41):
Lorin's passionate about and commitment
to accessibility and disabilityawareness stems from her
lifelong lived experience withprofound hearing loss. So
Stephanie, Cadieux, BradMcConnell and Lorin MacDonald,
welcome to You Can't SpellInclusion Without a D. And thank
you for joining us to share yourperspectives.
Stephanie Cadieux (05:02):
It's wonderful to be here and, and
reflect on on some things duringNational accessibility week.
Jeannette Campbell (05:11):
Well, in that case, then Stephanie, I'm
going to start with you first.Where do you think we are on the
accessibility barometer and2024? So how would you describe
the overall state ofaccessibility in Canada?
Stephanie Cadieux (05:27):
I would say, we're getting a passing grade.
Which is to say we have a longway to go. We haven't yet made
sure that people have access toaccessible homes, for example,
that's something we really needto move the needle on. And we
still as a society, to easilyslide into a mindset that
(05:50):
accessibility is somehowsomething charitable, something
that you do if you have themoney, or if somebody requests
it, we haven't yet fullyaccepted that it matters every
time, all of the time,everywhere. And we definitely
have not yet accepted that, orat least not broadly, that it
(06:14):
means more than ramps andwashrooms. But that it means
Braille, it means access tointerpreters, it means plain
language, it means wayfindingwe've got we've got a long way
to go before we hit that 2040mark and, and hopefully, have
(06:40):
become barrier free.
Jeannette Campbell (06:41):
And you know, you raised a lot of really
good, good points there that Ihope listeners will be able to
get a little bit grounded in sothank you for that, that. That
framing. And Lauren, what aboutyou? What do you think about the
overall state of accessibilityright now?
Lorin MacDonald (07:00):
Pleased to hear that Stephanie was candid in
saying that we're getting apassing grade, because you're
Brad we'd really like youropinion on this. What are your
oftentimes when we talk aboutaccessibility, at people with
disability for almost gaslitinto oh, we're like, totally
going to make that deadline. Andeverything is just great. And it
(07:26):
doesn't do us any favor, to havethat gaslighting, almost
disability micro aggressionbeing aimed at us. And so, I
appreciate your candor Tapaniundoubtedly, we've made
progress, it has beencommendable. When I think back
to all of my years in disabilityadvocacy. There's certainly
(07:51):
conversations that arehappening, but it needs to be
beyond just happening andtranslate into action. And I
don't see that happening,especially when you consider the
state of accessibility. Yes, itlooked very different in urban
(08:12):
centers, such as Vancouver,Ottawa, Toronto, but what does
it look like in remote and ruralcommunities, I daresay not much
has changed at all. And so weneed to recognize that the gaps
are still present. When we thinkabout public transportation, you
(08:35):
made reference to Air Canada,and air transport in general,
not just one specific airline,we don't want to pile on to one
airline is across all of them.And, you know, education,
employment, that we do need toengage in ongoing work in those
(08:57):
areas, and even things such asdigital content, which has
become even more importantcoming out of COVID, but still
has a long way to go could befully accessible. And I'll
expand on that further in thecompensation. But that's my
(09:17):
thoughts?
opening gambit. We were makingprogress, not as much as we
should be making it. Thecompensation needs to be need to
Brad McCannell (09:24):
I think it's really important to keep a broad
change from talking and moveinto action.
perspective on this, you know,the overall state of
accessibility in Canada is sofar ahead of the rest of the
world and we sometimes losefocus on that. Sometimes you
(09:46):
can't see the forest for thetrees. And we're guilty of that
in our community to some extent.I think one of the most
heartening things that'shappening since the ACA was
enacted though is it's expandedour understanding know who the
user groups really are. Thefocus was on mobility,
basically, well, it's comingfrom a wheelchair user, but the
(10:07):
wheelchair users just dominatedthe discussion. And and now
we're looking at mine from theenvironments. We're looking at
neurodiverse we're looking atmuch more into the sensory
disabilities as well. So, inanswering your question, I'd say
the glass is half full. I'm justnot sure what it's full of.
Dean Askin (10:23):
Strong opening gambits, I have to say. So we
still got a lot of things to do,and a long way to go. But what
are we getting right today aboutaccessibility, that maybe we
weren't, you know, even 510 or15 years ago? Lorin, what do you
think?
Lorin MacDonald (10:41):
We've got the Accessible Canada Act. And we
have standards that are inprogress and have been created.
So that definitely animprovement. infrastructure
upgrades are happening with themore ramps with the elevators,
accessible washroom, transit, wedo see some developments in that
(11:03):
regard. Coming out of COVID,we're seeing all of the virtual
platform, which really wasn'tused that much free COVID. and I
were fortunate I had a doomaccount before COVID started,
and with you do using them, butin the beginning, there were so
many virtual platforms and hardto learn. But it was also a way
(11:27):
to engage people. And new workformat, which also came out of
COVID, which was remote work.And so those are definitely some
improvement. And if youremember, people with disability
for many, many years, have beenrequesting the opportunity for
(11:49):
flexible work, as it was morereferred to being able to, to
manage their work from home dueto issues with accessible
transit, and all of that. Andwe're consistently told, No, it
can't happen. We need you in theoffice is non negotiable. But
(12:10):
the minute that COVID hit, andthe larger employment sector
needed to transition to remotework, how fast did that happen?
It turned on a dime. And also,the other thing is, though, that
showed the the discrimination,if you will, and I'll talk
(12:34):
further about exactly what thatis towards people with
disability. But also, what alsocame out of COVID was how nimble
the federal government can be ifthey need to be, because look at
all of the emergency support.That also happened, the
(12:54):
financial support that alsohappened very, very quickly with
the candidate emergency responsebenefit, and support for
businesses. And so we'vedefinitely got we have increased
awareness and inclusion. Butlike I said, in the opening,
people are talking, but it needsto move beyond talking. And so
(13:18):
these are the right directionthat we're going into, there
needs to be more. And definitelynow that I looked at a few
copper mine, things we'regetting right, I'm love to hear
how you're going to add to that,because I'm sure you have a very
different perspective, or maybethe same as me.
Stephanie Cadieux (13:42):
Largely the same. But the but one that I'll
I'll pick up on for sure. In theway of what are we doing right,
is I think we have learned andand as it comes to what is
flexibility and work mean, andand what is what are the
(14:04):
opportunities and people withdisabilities had been asking for
a long time for the opportunityto work remotely. And I fully
echo the Ryan's comments aboutwe figured it out as soon as
COVID happened. I was in thelegislature in British Columbia
at the time. And, you know,while that had had always been
(14:28):
an in person, in person job inthe legislature in Parliament.
We figured it out, you know, intwo weeks, how we were going to
continue to sit because we hadto we had to be able to pass new
legislation to get supports outto people and to manage the
(14:51):
crisis. Imagine that, and thenall of a sudden, well gee, we
can also do these other things.that way, right? I think one of
the challenges moving forward isensuring that we don't lose
that, that we don't lose thatability to be flexible and to to
(15:12):
innovate, and include people aswe move forward. And I think
that is a real risk. But whatare we what else are we doing
right that we weren't maybe fiveor 10 years ago, even 15 years
ago, I think we are more open tohaving difficult, vulnerable
(15:35):
conversations about whataccessibility means and what it
doesn't, and what disability is,and what it's not. Those are,
those are uncomfortableconversations, but I think we're
getting better at having those.As Lorenzo we know, at the very
(15:57):
outset, you know, being a, beinga person with a disability, and
sort of feeling like you alwayshad to make other people feel
comfortable around you, ratherthan showing up as yourself with
your, your needs. And, and, andwith the difficulties front and
(16:19):
center. Instead, we are now moreopen to showing up as we are and
saying yeah, and this isn't goodenough, what we what we accepted
as people with disabilities 10or 15 years ago, because there
was really no alternative. Butto power through and be strong
(16:40):
and be adaptable to anenvironment that wasn't friendly
to us, has changed. And, andthat's important, it's important
that people with disabilitiesare able to show up and be
honest about the barriers thatare in front of them, and have
others take responsibility forremoving those barriers. That is
(17:02):
a fundamental shift that we seenow written into the legislation
written into the AccessibleCanada Act, a definition of
disability based on the socialmodel of disability. That, that
takes the onus off theindividual to advocate for their
needs in a system and aroundissues that are systemic, and
(17:26):
and puts that onus on thesystems to remove those
barriers, that is fundamentallya culture shift at the at at the
core that ultimately will leadlead to a different interaction
(17:48):
for people with disabilities andour country. But we have to get
it right. And we have to startacting and and I agree. Action
beats intent every single time.And we have to we have to start
doing more of it.
Lorin MacDonald (18:05):
Yeah, if I can add to what Stephanie has said
that possible.
Dean Askin (18:11):
Go ahead. jump right in.
Lorin MacDonald (18:13):
Yeah. And just because there were so many
points that you were raisingStephanie, that reminded me some
other thing. Lawyer, the legalprofession, also had to very
quickly shift the way thatthings have always been done.
And but when they made thatshift, for example, we used to
have to pack you know, document,who back in the day. In this day
(18:40):
and age lawyers still do and aswell as the medical profession
so quickly that when theyeliminated and also in person,
child and the teacher legalprocedures were not happening,
as we talked about COVID. So thetransition moved to online with
increased accessibility forpeople with disabilities. And
(19:01):
it's really the concept ofuniversal design, that it's not
just for those people who livewith LD, but it's good for
everyone. And the accessibleCanada Act. Anthony at the human
rights lawyer, I'm mindful ofthe fact that the broaden
definition of what a disabilityis, as it appears in the
(19:24):
accessible Canada Act isexceptional, need to be accepted
by all of the government bodiesbeing the definition because
some areas of government havenarrower or more restrictive
definition. And with respect topeople with disability and I did
(19:49):
came up with a while I waslistening to you, we have to
move from compliance to defiancewhat do I mean by that? That is
pretty good. But what does thatmean? Is that because people
with disabilities have alwaysbeen taught or ingrained that we
(20:13):
should accept what is offered,be grateful for, you know,
whatever accessibility probe itmay be offered. But now what
we're seeing, and I thought ofthis technique that you were
talking about air travel, wehave moved away from compliance,
this is no longer good enough,it is no longer acceptable, it
(20:36):
is no longer dignified it like ahuman right, and have shifted
all the way to defy him. Andrightly so. And even though
people say, Oh, you disabledpeople are always angry. There's
a reason for that. It's a reasonwhy we're angry. But also what
(20:56):
we have seen is, think about it1015 years ago, once a tick
tock, how about Instagram? Iremember, you know, Facebook was
just starting out when I was inlaw school. The people with
disabilities have learned how toleverage the power of social
media. And we have all learnedso much from the inequities of
(21:22):
air travel with those stunningexample videos of people with
disabilities, how their rightsare trampled on. And images are
powerful. And that is movingthings forward. So I would say
that that is a big advantagethat we have now that we did not
(21:44):
have 15 years ago, because it'sreally creating a movement,
pardon the pun, to make changehappen.
Dean Askin (21:53):
Brad, I want to get your perspective on this. You've
heard what you've heard whatStephanie and Lorin have said,
but I want to bring Brad intothe conversation here. What do
you think we're getting righttoday about accessibility, that
maybe we weren't 5, 10 or 15years ago?
Brad McCannell (22:12):
Again, it's that broad perspective that we're
doing is something that's quite,quite different. But the other
thing that we're doing right,is, we're really getting people
with lived experience involvedin the discussion. And we're
respecting that the concept oflived experience isn't simply
people with disabilities,caregivers have a very unique
(22:37):
lived experience. And it's veryimportant to bring that into the
discussion as well. So beingaware of of people with lived
experience really are inbroadening natto to include
caregivers. And indeed, though,facility operators and owners,
they have a lived experience,too, and not all of its
positive. So broadening thatout, I think it's one of the
(22:59):
things that we're really gettingright, is understanding that
it's, it's not a very narrowfocus, you know, the thing about
disability is anyone access isaccess is everything. And
everything is access. Access isa moving target. The more access
you create, the more you'regoing to need, because that's
the nature of inclusion. But Ithink what we're getting right
(23:21):
is, is understanding thatbroader picture. One of the
things that we've done reallywell, you know, the Battlecry,
right? Nothing about us withoutthis. The understanding, though,
is, it doesn't mean go ask awheelchair user, or go as
someone who was minded, it meanswhy it doesn't even mean forming
a committee and having ablebodied people dutifully taking
(23:43):
notes and try to turn that intopolicy. Nothing about us without
us means putting people withdisabilities and decision making
positions. And that's startingto happen. And that's what we're
doing right?
Dean Askin (23:54):
There's those fundamental shifts that that you
mentioned, and all theseprogressive things are
happening, despite the fact thatthe legal and medical
professions are still using faxmachines. But out of all that
progress, what do you thinkstill needs to change the most?
There's one or two things whatwould come to mind whoever wants
(24:14):
to jump in.
Stephanie Cadieux (24:16):
Attitudes. Attitudes around disability
still have to change there'sways we still need for people to
understand that that disabilityis just another way of
experiencing the world. And andwe need to build on the
(24:37):
willingness to try new thingsand fail forward. There is a
level of fear that keeps peoplefrom acting from keeps people
from from doing what's necessaryto become accessible and there's
what if I get it wrong? What ifI say the wrong thing what well
(24:59):
You'll learn, but it's better tobe doing something. And trying,
then, than to than to sit, sitstill and wait, wait for
perfection, wait to be toldexactly what you have to do by a
law. We don't, we don't wantthat. This is about being open
(25:22):
and changing and, and all ofthis is going to evolve. It's
not going to happen in one fellswoop. So I think that's really
important that we have to be, wehave to be open and conscious of
of what we're doing and whatwe're trying to do. So that we
(25:43):
can learn.
Dean Askin (25:44):
Let's get Brad's perspective here for a minute.
And then Lorin, I know you'vegot something you'd like to add
to this.
Brad McCannell (25:50):
What needs to change the most is the built
environment. The reason we'vefocused so much of the Rick
Hansen foundation on adultenvironment, excuse me, is none
of the other pillars ofdisability, whether it's
employment, transportation,communication, WebEx, none of
them can really thrive unlessthe built environment itself is
(26:10):
accessible. Right? Even ifyou're working from home, you're
working in a built environment.So for us, the focus had to be
on getting that builtenvironment, right? You know,
cuz Conference Board of Canadadid a terrific stir survey on
this. And we just asked them,What if just office space and
retail space, if those two alonewere accessible on the Rick
(26:35):
Hansen, excessivelycertification scale, at our base
minimum, what would happen ifthose two jurisdictions were
accessible, and what wouldhappen would be $16.8 billion
will be added to the grossdomestic product, because I can
get into buildings because I canwork there now. Because you're
respecting people on both sidesof the counter. So it's not we
(26:58):
talked about the agingpopulation all the time. But one
of the things that getsforgotten is it needs the
workforce is aging as well. Soall these elements apply on both
sides of the counter. So it's,it's a really important piece to
understand all of these thingsgo together, and we're doing
really well in some things. Butother things are lagging behind.
(27:18):
And the built environment, isthe key thing to make everything
else work.
Dean Askin (27:23):
You know, there's a real cross section of
perspectives coming out in thisconversation. Well, that's why
we wanted all three of you onthe show for this episode. You
know, Lorin, what did you wantto add to this?
Lorin MacDonald (27:35):
I've asked her to definitely point it that
thumb, people organization gethung up on to set Tapani, that
perfection P we have to get thatright. It's imperative, whereas
people with disabilities arevery candid about, let's go with
progress over perfection, thatthat let's get the movement
(27:59):
happening because you can becomeso paralyzed. But, again, bad
veterans the word, but it canbecome unwilling to don't.
Because you have that fear ofnot getting it right. You're
absolutely right, definitely inthe we get so hung up of people
(28:24):
with our disability get hung upon what the proper term, you
know, how do I engage one of theinteraction and what it takes it
stop and take a beat. And justlike what I did, now, realizing
that certain words are notrespectful. Say, Oh, that was
(28:45):
wrong, you know, I apologize,you learn from it and move on.
And you do better movingforward. And we also need to
teach ship to beyond compliance,because the minimum is exactly
that the minimum and somebaselines are very, very low.
And so we're seeing examples oforganizations and people that
(29:09):
are going beyond the minimumwhich is important. And so I
have some thoughts about whatneeds to change most. And it's
hard to pick one because thereare so many things that need to
shift. I think that there needsto be a holistic approach to
(29:31):
accessibility and and disabilityinclusion. And for example, Nova
Scotia, their accessibilitydirectorate, put that in their
justice department file, whichautomatically, you know, help
coordinate policymaking. Andtake note that disability
(29:54):
inclusion is a key governmentpriority. But when you have a
standard Long minister for aminute, the Ontario minister for
seniors and accessibility, youknow, and how is that? Yes, we
do have a designated Ministeryay. But it's seniors and
(30:17):
accessibility and disability,which is at the bottom of the
social spectrum, in the view ofproviding support. So that
holistic view needs to happen.And let's talk about poverty
reduction, because that iscritical. For so many people
(30:38):
with disabilities who are livingin poverty, they live below the
poverty line, and theyexperience homelessness. And why
is that because there are bloodincome support system across the
country, across the country thatdoes not make a dip not deport
(30:59):
people with disabilities. Havinga meaningful life, it's not even
deporting them covering therent, or the essential around
their their disability need, isalso tied to the federal
(31:21):
disability tax credit, which canbe problematic because of the
very narrow definition of thatcredit. So it needs to be that
of disability. Within thatcredit, though, there needs to
be cohesion, there needs to becollaboration around all of the
(31:44):
disability support. Because ifyou move from one province to
another, and you are a personwith a disability, you may be
better, oftentimes worse offthan you were before. And that
is not affecting dignity forpeople in this country, people
(32:04):
with disabilities. And it's alsocertainly not respecting
intersectionality. Because ifyou are an indigenous person
living with a disability, youhave multiple layers of
oppression that are extremelydifficult to manage. And we need
to recognize from a human rightsperspective, the a person with a
(32:27):
disability isn't just a personwith a disability, they have
other identities, intersectingidentity that make things more
difficult. So it's not an easyquestion to answer with respect
to what needs to change themost. Because there are
(32:47):
competing priorities. They allneed to happen at the same time,
because they're devastating forpeople in the country.
Jeannette Campbell (32:59):
I'm gonna just gonna jump in and say, that
kind of leads us to a question,a couple of questions down our
list, but I feel like we've sortof unpacked a lot in that change
the most question, lessonlearned full podcast just on
that topic in the future, whichI think would make an amazing
(33:21):
conversation and a great, greatpiece for people to learn from,
but who has to lead the way? Forthis? Is it is it the disability
community through advocacy? Isit government through
legislation? Is it big businessthat needs to step up? Or is it?
(33:42):
Is it a combination of things?What? Who has to leave? It's a
combination.
Stephanie Cadieux (33:48):
Yeah, I think that's the that's the challenge,
right? It's accessibility, iseverybody's business.
Accessibility has to be a partof every conversation at the
start, not at the end. Not whenwe're looking at how do we patch
this, to make it work forsomeone with a disability, but
instead, we're starting on thisnew policy, this new product,
(34:10):
this new website, whatever itmight be, how do we are how are
we building accessibility? Andhow are we making sure that
people with disabilities areincluded, and then you add on
top of that, the complexity of,of a country and all of the
pieces, the multi levels ofgovernment, the private sector,
and so on, and how you can't Wecan't force everyone to
(34:36):
harmonize their efforts and havehave things work smoothly from
place to place. But we canchoose harmonization we can
choose to, to do things togetherand with with the proper lens
and to make sure that thingswork. across so that people
(35:01):
regardless of their ability, andregardless of what programs,
what services they might need,that they can accept, expect a
level of consistency across thecountry. I think that's
important.
Lorin MacDonald (35:18):
Of course, you know, our government needs to
lead by example. They need totake a look around and see who
is not at the table and createsafe spaces. And they also need
to ensure that the accessibilityis there to provide and enable
participation, because it wasgovernment, the federal
(35:42):
government who was telling usCanadian, that, hey, the numbers
of people who have reported thatthey live with one or more
disability, they want a sevenpick that up 5%, from the last
survey on Canadians withdisability, and that's reported,
(36:03):
there is a number of those whochoose not to report who do not
want to disclose. So why didthat 5% Jump happen? What what
changed since the last report in2017, we've had a global
pandemic, we've had greaterawareness and love thigma around
(36:24):
mental wellness. And we have anincreasing aging population. And
so government is the one thatgot that data collection,
government needs to do more withdata collection, because data
drive to datum and so governmentneed to set the standard. I
(36:46):
don't care if it's federalgovernment, provincial,
government, municipal governmentand government, they need to set
the standard and model thebehavior that will create
change. But the thing is, if thepolitical will is not there,
across any government actors,I'm not pointing out any
(37:08):
particular political partybecause it doesn't matter if the
political will is not there,then no matter how much advocacy
and grassroots mobilization isdone by the disability
community, not much it's goingto happen. I think all we need
to do is look at the recentCanada disability benefit, and
(37:30):
the inclusion in the federalbudget. That was disappointing.
I think that's a mild word touse for many Canadians with
disability to were consulted,for provided testimony and all
of that feedback, only to see aless than satisfactory amount
(37:55):
allocated in the federal bloodbudget. And that was that was
heartbreaking for many. And sowe move from government talk
about people with disability toart advocating, but sometimes it
doesn't work. Sometimes it does.I point to the air
transportation industry, we'reseeing that change happening,
(38:18):
because it all happened at thegrassroot level. When the move
to business, the business casefor hiring people with
disabilities in that knew it hadbeen around for over a decade,
it came out of the theRethinking disability in the
private sector report that wasreleased in 2012. At the behest
(38:42):
of the federal government, to,you know, point this out, but
the thing is, it's questionablehow much the dial has actually
moved, and doesn't reallysupport the spectrum of people
with disability. And no matterwhat their disability may be,
(39:03):
are they really receivingmeaningful employment? All
level, not just entry level, butall level. So really, what it
comes down to is, yeah, tonefrom the top of the thing from
your leader to department, butalso so in representation. You
(39:26):
need to have people withdisability in positions of
power, who are part of thedecision making process. And
that is not happening to a greatdegree, from what I have seen
across all government sector. Soit's a combination of factors
(39:48):
that you need to be involved tomove, make train traffic.
Stephanie Cadieux (39:52):
It's a it's a combination. Absolutely. Because
as I said, accessibility iseverybody's business right? Uh,
the accessible Canada Act putsthe onus on government and
federally regulated industriesto look within themselves to
remove and prevent barriers. Andthat's important, right again,
because usually, in the pastindividuals, although the law
(40:16):
said they couldn't bediscriminated against, in order
for them to get what they need,they were fighting the same
battles over and over again, onan individual basis, which is
not, which isn't moving thedial. So while the system, the
onus now is on the system,whether that be government or
private sector, industries thatare regulated by the federal
(40:39):
government, or, or whether it'sat the community level, it's
great that that that onus is onthem. But we have to remember
that it's also critical thatpeople with disabilities are
consulted, in those in thoseprocesses in the work that's
being done, or they are no one'sgonna get it right. There are
(41:01):
people with disabilities, theirfeedback, it has to be factored
in, they have to be asked, andbecause people with disabilities
know what they need to thrive,and they're gonna be willing to
have those conversations. Nowthere's, there's complexity
around that, of course, as well.We don't want to burn people out
in this in this process. Butit's about that willingness of
(41:24):
organizations to to bevulnerable, and ask, why do I
need to do? And to theiremployees? You know, does
everybody have what they need tobe successful here? Those are
the questions. But it's so so ifit comes to that, then I guess
ultimately, I would say theleadership has to come from a
(41:46):
top. The leadership sets thetone, and the expectations for
what is going to happen, whetherthat be in a government, or
whether that be in a mom and popcoffee shop. The reality is, the
leadership decides thataccessibility is important.
Jeannette Campbell (42:05):
Brad, let's hear from you.
Brad McCannell (42:07):
It's all hands on deck. But part of the problem
in the past is everybody's beentrying to do this in isolation.
And unless we all work togetheron this, it's it's gonna
continue being blockingourselves, really, that
community of people withdisability is fighting to get
higher code requirements andstiffer penalties. And that's
really good and reallyimportant. I mean, I believe in
(42:30):
codes. I'm on the board ofaccessible standards, Canada, I
believe in code. But I alsounderstand it takes more than
just cold codes to meet the kindof change we're looking for. We
need a cultural shift. And theonly way to get that is to bring
industry to the table. We'vebeen diligently pushing codes
higher and pushing penaltieshigher. But nobody brought
(42:52):
industry to the table. They'rethe ones paying for this after
all. Yeah. So at the end of theday, if we don't bring them to
the table to the discussion,then they just see it as more
regulation more read table. Oh,my gosh, now you got all the
good parking space. What else doyou want? It's that kind of
thing. If we don't bring them tothe table while we're having a
(43:14):
discussion, then there's goingto be more and more resistance,
Dean Askin (43:17):
Powerful insights. How I mean, 2040 is 16 years
away, how optimistic are youthat we are going to be barrier
free? Under the AccessibleCanada Act by January 1, 2040?
Out of all the things you'vesaid still have to change. How
what's what's your level ofoptimism? Brad? I'll turn to you
(43:43):
first, on this one.
Brad McCannell (43:45):
Optimistic Yes. But it's not a lot of time.
People think 16 years is not inthe in the world of
construction. My focus is on thebuilt environment. And in that
world planning cycles are 20year builders, typically we've
got three projects right now,and it's one of your programs.
And so the important thing is toget to them early, important
(44:07):
thing is to stop letting themmake new mistakes. We have to
this code minimum accessstrategy is knocking us down
because we can't keep up. It's agame of whack a mole right now.
You miss Valley says okay, we'regonna build a new library. And
everybody runs over there we go.Okay, here, it has to be
accessible. Here's why. Here'swho. We're gonna build a new rec
(44:29):
center. Everybody runs overthere. Okay, we've got to make
it accessible. Here's why. Andhere's who, and nobody's doing
any of the connective issues.It's 16 years is not a very long
period of time. But people haveto recognize that industry gets
on board with this. If they seethe return on investment, then,
(44:51):
yeah, we're in pretty goodshape. But also recognizing that
access by 24 There's an officerthink there is no end date on
this. Now, when someone says Iwant my belly to be accessible,
the next thing out of my mouthis to go to wheelchair users to
people who are blind to peoplewho are deaf. neurodiverse
(45:12):
human. I don't know what makesus think that by 2014 We've
solved everything is a bunch ofnew things we're gonna come up,
take the orange is gonna bringmore and more people into the
inclusion bracket. And so thisidea that there's an end date to
it, I find troubling.
Lorin MacDonald (45:30):
Yeah, and I want to say that being an
Ontario which is the mostpopulous province in the
country, we've all seen what'shappened with the accessible
Accessibility for Ontarians withDisabilities Act, the A ODA,
whenever Pathan, 20 and 2005 thevision of an A barrier free
(45:52):
Ontario by 2025 20 years, nobrainer, of course, we're gonna
get there. We're nowhere close.We've got eight months, less
than that, before we hit 2025.And we're nowhere near reaching
that level of attainment. And sothe festival Canada Act came in
(46:12):
five years ago. And so again,that was another 20 year
projection. But people need tobe aware and manage expectation
that this only relate to thefederal government and federally
regulated agency, it is not apanacea to make the whole
country accessible. It is notthe same as the Americans with
(46:37):
Disabilities Act, which peoplethink is exactly the same, it is
not, for good reason. We are notthe United States of America,
also a very good thing. And sowe don't have the critical mass
that the American path, we havea country that is large. That is
(46:58):
it spread out, there is a lot ofremote and rural community that
you don't see as much in the inin the United States. And so
right, then that's going to bedifferent. So it's all going to
come down to, you know, how ourtimelines being set? What are
(47:19):
the details around that? How arewe measuring accessibility? How
are they getting implemented inthe first place? What about and
the big downfall with a Oda hasbeen accessible enforcement of
the accessibility standard. Bigargument, oh, we want the carrot
(47:40):
or the stick approach, we'll gowith the carrot. Well, the
carrot means nothing. Becausepeople are like, well, when
taken under advisement, but thennothing happened. Why? Because
they could continue in this waywith impunity, because they're
(48:00):
not going to hit any kind ofenforcement. Like I said before,
the business case for hiringpeople with disability, this is
over a decade, and it with thecandidate with the right thing
to do, it's good for yourbusiness, that that that is the
other thing. People don't care,unless you hit them where I hurt
(48:25):
with it in the pocketbook. Youknow, there won't be in the
there won't be the motivation tochange. So is it possible? I
highly doubt it. I love theirthe picture and how they set the
timeline. How are they going toimplement? How are they going to
(48:45):
enforce you know, the standardthat what needs to happen?
Because you see with a Oda backin 2005, I was in the house in
Queens Park when it wasunanimously passed, we were all
celebrating it. It going by inthe blink of an eye.
Dean Askin (49:04):
And the last word on this question goes to you
Stephanie, you're the ChiefAccessibility Officer of this
country. How optimistic are youthat the goal is going to be
achieved by January 1, 2040?
Stephanie Cadieux (49:17):
At this moment, it is still possible.
But we have to we have to get tothat action. We cannot spend
more time talking about it. Wehave to spend more time doing
it. There is a there are thereare pockets, I would say of a
(49:41):
real progress places where thereare big strides being made. And
and I think we can learn fromthose and certainly I'll be
watching those in my role andand trying to amplify them and
share them but there is a Thereis much work to do to really
(50:03):
embed a different way ofthinking about accessibility and
disability, if we're going toget there, right, and that's
really what it comes down to, itcomes down to it becoming the
way we do things, right,designing for everyone, from the
beginning, if we if we can't getthat that mindset entrenched,
(50:27):
then progress will be slow, ifnot impossible. And, and I end
and I echo, Lauren, that comeswith an essential, an essential
element of political will,
Jeannette Campbell (50:44):
I think we need to do a three part
conversation. So we're going tobe in touch with you again, so
that so that we can do that. Andso I think what I'm gonna do is
we've covered so much, you'vetalked about so many things. I'm
gonna throw this over to Deanfor, for him to ask the final
(51:04):
question of the podcast.
Dean Askin (51:07):
Yeah, I've just been, I've just been to these
are such powerfully insightfulanswers. I mean, we talked about
so much, you guys, you raise somany important points. Is there
anything, you know that wehaven't brought into this
conversation and talked aboutthat we should mention before we
wrap it up here?
Stephanie Cadieux (51:25):
Probably lots. I guess, I would say I'd
mentioned that I would encouragefolks who are interested in
this, whether they be peopledisabilities, whether they be
people in the private sector,whether they be just Joe
Average, if you're interested init, and interested in the
(51:46):
progress, I would, I would leadyou to, to our our website on
the the Government of Canadapage to my report, my first
report is there. And I made fourrecommendations in the first
report, they are around the needfor more regulation, things that
can be enforced data, betterdata, and what are we measuring
(52:09):
dedicated funding to make thishappen and make it and so that
it isn't the thing you do whenyou find money, but rather an
acceptance that this is asimportant as the heat or the
lights. And so accessibility hasto have its own line in the
budget and mandatory trainingbecause we have to get that
(52:32):
culture shift, we have to embedinto our decision making. What
is this accessibility? When isit important? Every time? What
does that mean? And so those arethe things I recommended in in
year one. The first report, Iwill follow up this year, we're
going to look more specificallyat at employment and, and a
(52:56):
little on transportation,because of the because of the
focus in the media about airtravel. But there's a there is a
long way to go. And as long asthe NCAA said they, you know, it
is about the stick. It's aboutthe timelines, we've got a long
way to go. And there has to becommitment. Before if we're
(53:19):
gonna get there.
Lorin MacDonald (53:20):
I would just say that, again, from my human
rights law background, I knowthat most people do not intend
to exclude or discriminate. Butthe impact that matters, it
doesn't matter if Well, I didn'tknow I didn't mean to I didn't
the impact don't matter.mandatory training completely
(53:43):
agree. But it cannot beperformative has to be
substantial. It has to integratepeople with disability to
provide the training. We alsoneed to be training our younger
people with disabilities on howto be self advocate and then how
to be external advocate becauseit's a specific skill, the
(54:08):
tracing era definitely being aformer MLA, you will know that
it's definitely an acquiredskill, some are born with it and
supplement it other most need tolearn how to be effective
because if you don't know how tobe effective, you're just
spinning your wheels and when Ialways tried to say is always be
(54:33):
kind and lead with empathybecause you don't know what
anyone is really going through.It could be disability related
it could be unrelated todisability. So the spend all
assumption out the questions ifit's appropriate. That's the
only way we're gonna get throughsuch a complex issue because
(54:57):
changing centuries of disabilityoppression in not going to be
undone within a decade, and giveher grace for the progress that
we do make. So that's what Ialways try to lead from in my
own practice. But what a greatconversation. Thank you so much.
Dean Askin (55:18):
Brad? I'll give the last word to you. We've heard
from Stephanie and Lorin, I'llgive the last word to you. What
are your final thoughts? Isthere anything else that you
think is important to mention,before we wrap things up?
Brad McCannell (55:30):
Oh, there's two things. The most important thing
in my mind, is unless we havecommon language and common
methodology, rooted instandardized training, to
measure the accessibility,without we can't measure it.
Right now, there's nationalcodes and model codes and
provincial codes and chartercities have their own codes and
(55:52):
their disability committees andhis personal preference, and
it's all the stuff out there,everybody's doing their own
thing. So it's not measurable.One person calls accessible
another person doesn't. And sowithout common language, common
methodology, none of it'smeasurable, it's not measurable,
it's not manageable. It's notmanageable, it's not fun, simple
(56:15):
as that. So until we get on thatpage together, we're always
going to be struggling, which isthe great advantage. So the
recounts and foundation since weCertification Program is a level
playing field, it takes you canbe laid over any code anywhere
and say this is what you got.And now we're all talking the
(56:36):
same language. Now I can measureit within my portfolios within
my province or right across thecountry. But the second thing
is, I think it was, Stephanie,that mentioned compliance has
changed to defiance. I wouldagree with that. I think as a
community, we need to demandmore, it was so great to buy a
brand new house, and I have todo major renovations just to
(57:00):
move into it. So as a community,I think we need to demand more
and not let this kind of thingthat building a house for an 18
to 55 year old male, which thecurrent standard is just
insanity. But at the same time,we have to be careful to we have
to include it, we have to bringthem along with this. Because if
(57:20):
we don't if we keep keep puttingthese two poles, these opposing
factions, we're not going to getanywhere.
Jeannette Campbell (57:27):
This this really has been such a great
conversation. And it has beensuch an important conversation
to have especially consideringhad this week in particular, as
we mentioned, at the top of theshow, we're in the midst of
national accessibility, weak for2024. There's so many things
(57:47):
that you shared with us and somany points that I think we're
gonna have to unpack. One thingI will say is that we're going
to make sure that we put in theshow notes have access to that
report that you've referred to.So that listeners will be able
to, to click on to that. And oneof the things I'm going to leave
(58:09):
with is that I've now met twomore people who also obviously,
quote Elvis without knowingyou're quoting Elvis, and by
saying a little lessconversation, a little more
action. So, so thank you forcoming on the show for sharing
your insights and experiences Ion you know, on the report card,
(58:30):
for lack of a better term on theoverall state of things with
accessibility in this country.And I guess we could say,
judging from comments at thebeginning, that we've got a
passing grade, it might be sortof that 50 With the Asterix next
to it. And so there's definitelywe knew this already, but you're
(58:52):
confirming for us and giving ussome concrete examples of room
for improvement, and things thatwe need to do so that so that we
do end up in Canada with this aplus by 2040. And hopefully this
conversation is going to getpeople thinking more consciously
about accessibility and all ofthe reasons why it can't and it
(59:14):
shouldn't. And it won't be an afterthought,
Dean Askin (59:17):
I have to say thanks for me as well. Stephanie and
Lorin and Brad out there in BC.So many great insights. And you
know, the population is agingand disability is on the rise. I
mean, it's now 27% of thepopulation. 8 million Canadians
have a disability. Soaccessibility simply becoming
(59:39):
more and more important. And aswe said at the top of the show,
I mean, accessibility justbenefits everyone. I came across
a LinkedIn post where the posterreally summed up accessibility
and, you know, here's what shesaid making things easy to use
for everyone is up treatingeveryone with respect.
Jeannette Campbell (01:00:03):
And I think that that's a great insight for
us to end on, and added to theincredible insights that you've
shared with us. And so thank youagain, for coming and sharing
and educating and informing andhaving this conversation. And so
that's it for this episode ofYou can't spell inclusion
(01:00:23):
without a D. I'm JeanetteCampbell. And I hope that you'll
join us next month for part twoin our series on accessibility,
where we'll be looking at thestate of accessibility and
business, and that is inbranding, marketing,
advertising, and social media.And that's coming on June 18.
Dean Askin (01:00:42):
That's right, Jeannette. If you're listening
to this right now and you're inmarketing, or advertising, or
you're a brand manager or asocial media manager, Hey, be
sure to tune in to thatconversation next month. I'm
Dean askin, and thanks again forlistening, wherever, whenever,
and on whatever podcast appyou're listening from. Join us
(01:01:03):
each episode as we haveinsightful conversations like
this one with Stephanie Cadieuxand Lauren MacDonald and Brad
McCannell, and exploreddisability inclusion in business
and in our communities. From allthe angles you can't spell
inclusion without a D isproduced in Toronto, Canada by
the Ontario DisabilityEmployment Network. All rights
(01:01:25):
reserved. Our podcast productionteam, executive producer and
host Jeanette Campbell, producerSudha fo associate producer and
host Dean askin audio editingand production by Dean askin.
Our podcast theme is last summerby Ericsson. If you have
feedback or comments about anepisode, contact us at info at
Odin network.com. That'sinfo@odnetwork.com. Join us each
(01:01:48):
episode for insights from expertguests as we explore the power
of inclusion, the businessbenefits of inclusive hiring and
why disability is an importantpart of the Diversity Equity and
Inclusion conversation. Listento you can't spell inclusion
without a D on pod bean orwherever you find your favorite podcast.
You Can't Spell Inclusion Without a D. The
(00:05):
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeanette Campbell and
Dean askin.
(00:26):
Accessibility, one word that canhave a lot of impact every day
in Canada, indeed, across NorthAmerica, and in countries around
the world. Many people,especially people who have a
disability face challenges intheir daily lives, because the
built environment we all livein, generally isn't all that
(00:48):
accessible. Now, we're talkinghere about the accessibility of
everything from public air andpassenger rail transport to many
buildings and businesses, toinformation to products on store
shelves to customer service topost secondary education on
university and college campuses.Hi, I'm Dean askin, and this is
(01:09):
episode 22. But you can't spellinclusion without a D. Thanks
for joining us as we markNational accessibility week
2024. With this episode, that'spart one in a two part series on
accessibility.
Jeannette Campbell (01:23):
Accessibility comes down to making sure
everything from products toservices to places are designed
so everyone can use them. Whenthings are accessible. Everyone
benefits the emphasis on when.Hello, I'm Jeannette Campbell,
back with you at the other mic.And thanks to my colleague
(01:44):
Jennifer Crowson for filling inthe past couple of episodes.
Dean Askin (01:47):
Jennifer did a great job filling in and we had fun
co-hosting back to backepisodes, Jeannette, but I have
to say it's great to have youback. I mean, it's just not
quite the same co hosting apodcast without your regular co
host.
Jeannette Campbell (02:02):
Well, thanks, Dean. And you know, it's
been almost five years since theAccessible Canada Act came into
force with the goal of makingthis country totally barrier
free by January 1, 2040. Andjust what is the current state
of accessibility in Canada ofproducts, services of places?
(02:24):
And will we truly become barrierfree over the next 16 years?
Dean Askin (02:30):
That's what we're exploring in this episode. Think
of it as a report card on theoverall state of accessibility
in Canada.
Jeannette Campbell (02:38):
To get that high level barometric reading,
we've turned to three of the topvoices on accessibility in
Canada.
Dean Askin (02:46):
In fact, we went right to the top joining us from
Ottawa, Canada's ChiefAccessibility Officer, Stephanie
Cadieux. She's in the third yearof her appointed term as C-A-O.
She has been a wheelchair usersince the age of 18. So she's
got a deep understanding ofaccessibility barriers and
issues faced by people who havea disability.
Jeannette Campbell (03:08):
And that includes some recent personal
accessibility failureexperiences with air travel
that's made national headlines.
Dean Askin (03:17):
Joining us from out west in Richmond BC is Brad
McCannell. He's theVice-president of Access and
Inclusion at the Rick HansenFoundation, Brad leads the
foundation's accessibilitycertification program and
supporting training.
Jeannette Campbell (03:31):
He's been a leader in accessibility for
almost three decades. And Bradhas extensive experience in the
practical application ofuniversal design across the
whole built environment.
Dean Askin (03:44):
He's consulted globally on accessibility for
airport authorities, the Olympicand Paralympic Games, and the
International ParalympicCommittee. Brad's also a member
of the Federal AccessibilityStandards Canada board. By the
way, Brad uses a wheelchair andhis service dog every day.
Jeannette Campbell (04:01):
And joining us from here in Ontario, Toronto
to be exact, Lorin MacDonald.She's a human rights lawyer
ranked one of Canada's top 25Most Influential lawyers by
Canadian Lawyer magazine. She'sa disability and accessibility
change maker, and an inclusion,diversity, equity and
(04:22):
accessibility champion.
Dean Askin (04:24):
Lorin is recognized as one of Canada's disability
leaders and she's highlyregarded by the human rights
legal community. That disabilitychampion recognition includes
being a member of the Canadiandisability Hall of Fame, and a
recipient of the Order ofOntario.
Jeannette Campbell (04:41):
Lorin's passionate about and commitment
to accessibility and disabilityawareness stems from her
lifelong lived experience withprofound hearing loss. So
Stephanie, Cadieux, BradMcConnell and Lorin MacDonald,
welcome to You Can't SpellInclusion Without a D. And thank
you for joining us to share yourperspectives.
Stephanie Cadieux (05:02):
It's wonderful to be here and, and
reflect on on some things duringNational accessibility week.
Jeannette Campbell (05:11):
Well, in that case, then Stephanie, I'm
going to start with you first.Where do you think we are on the
accessibility barometer and2024? So how would you describe
the overall state ofaccessibility in Canada?
Stephanie Cadieux (05:27):
I would say, we're getting a passing grade.
Which is to say we have a longway to go. We haven't yet made
sure that people have access toaccessible homes, for example,
that's something we really needto move the needle on. And we
still as a society, to easilyslide into a mindset that
(05:50):
accessibility is somehowsomething charitable, something
that you do if you have themoney, or if somebody requests
it, we haven't yet fullyaccepted that it matters every
time, all of the time,everywhere. And we definitely
have not yet accepted that, orat least not broadly, that it
(06:14):
means more than ramps andwashrooms. But that it means
Braille, it means access tointerpreters, it means plain
language, it means wayfindingwe've got we've got a long way
to go before we hit that 2040mark and, and hopefully, have
(06:40):
become barrier free.
Jeannette Campbell (06:41):
And you know, you raised a lot of really
good, good points there that Ihope listeners will be able to
get a little bit grounded in sothank you for that, that. That
framing. And Lauren, what aboutyou? What do you think about the
overall state of accessibilityright now?
Lorin MacDonald (07:00):
Pleased to hear that Stephanie was candid in
saying that we're getting apassing grade, because you're
Brad we'd really like youropinion on this. What are your
oftentimes when we talk aboutaccessibility, at people with
disability for almost gaslitinto oh, we're like, totally
going to make that deadline. Andeverything is just great. And it
(07:26):
doesn't do us any favor, to havethat gaslighting, almost
disability micro aggressionbeing aimed at us. And so, I
appreciate your candor Tapaniundoubtedly, we've made
progress, it has beencommendable. When I think back
to all of my years in disabilityadvocacy. There's certainly
(07:51):
conversations that arehappening, but it needs to be
beyond just happening andtranslate into action. And I
don't see that happening,especially when you consider the
state of accessibility. Yes, itlooked very different in urban
(08:12):
centers, such as Vancouver,Ottawa, Toronto, but what does
it look like in remote and ruralcommunities, I daresay not much
has changed at all. And so weneed to recognize that the gaps
are still present. When we thinkabout public transportation, you
(08:35):
made reference to Air Canada,and air transport in general,
not just one specific airline,we don't want to pile on to one
airline is across all of them.And, you know, education,
employment, that we do need toengage in ongoing work in those
(08:57):
areas, and even things such asdigital content, which has
become even more importantcoming out of COVID, but still
has a long way to go could befully accessible. And I'll
expand on that further in thecompensation. But that's my
(09:17):
thoughts?
opening gambit. We were makingprogress, not as much as we
should be making it. Thecompensation needs to be need to
Brad McCannell (09:24):
I think it's really important to keep a broad
change from talking and moveinto action.
perspective on this, you know,the overall state of
accessibility in Canada is sofar ahead of the rest of the
world and we sometimes losefocus on that. Sometimes you
(09:46):
can't see the forest for thetrees. And we're guilty of that
in our community to some extent.I think one of the most
heartening things that'shappening since the ACA was
enacted though is it's expandedour understanding know who the
user groups really are. Thefocus was on mobility,
basically, well, it's comingfrom a wheelchair user, but the
(10:07):
wheelchair users just dominatedthe discussion. And and now
we're looking at mine from theenvironments. We're looking at
neurodiverse we're looking atmuch more into the sensory
disabilities as well. So, inanswering your question, I'd say
the glass is half full. I'm justnot sure what it's full of.
Dean Askin (10:23):
Strong opening gambits, I have to say. So we
still got a lot of things to do,and a long way to go. But what
are we getting right today aboutaccessibility, that maybe we
weren't, you know, even 510 or15 years ago? Lorin, what do you
think?
Lorin MacDonald (10:41):
We've got the Accessible Canada Act. And we
have standards that are inprogress and have been created.
So that definitely animprovement. infrastructure
upgrades are happening with themore ramps with the elevators,
accessible washroom, transit, wedo see some developments in that
(11:03):
regard. Coming out of COVID,we're seeing all of the virtual
platform, which really wasn'tused that much free COVID. and I
were fortunate I had a doomaccount before COVID started,
and with you do using them, butin the beginning, there were so
many virtual platforms and hardto learn. But it was also a way
(11:27):
to engage people. And new workformat, which also came out of
COVID, which was remote work.And so those are definitely some
improvement. And if youremember, people with disability
for many, many years, have beenrequesting the opportunity for
(11:49):
flexible work, as it was morereferred to being able to, to
manage their work from home dueto issues with accessible
transit, and all of that. Andwe're consistently told, No, it
can't happen. We need you in theoffice is non negotiable. But
(12:10):
the minute that COVID hit, andthe larger employment sector
needed to transition to remotework, how fast did that happen?
It turned on a dime. And also,the other thing is, though, that
showed the the discrimination,if you will, and I'll talk
(12:34):
further about exactly what thatis towards people with
disability. But also, what alsocame out of COVID was how nimble
the federal government can be ifthey need to be, because look at
all of the emergency support.That also happened, the
(12:54):
financial support that alsohappened very, very quickly with
the candidate emergency responsebenefit, and support for
businesses. And so we'vedefinitely got we have increased
awareness and inclusion. Butlike I said, in the opening,
people are talking, but it needsto move beyond talking. And so
(13:18):
these are the right directionthat we're going into, there
needs to be more. And definitelynow that I looked at a few
copper mine, things we'regetting right, I'm love to hear
how you're going to add to that,because I'm sure you have a very
different perspective, or maybethe same as me.
Stephanie Cadieux (13:42):
Largely the same. But the but one that I'll
I'll pick up on for sure. In theway of what are we doing right,
is I think we have learned andand as it comes to what is
flexibility and work mean, andand what is what are the
(14:04):
opportunities and people withdisabilities had been asking for
a long time for the opportunityto work remotely. And I fully
echo the Ryan's comments aboutwe figured it out as soon as
COVID happened. I was in thelegislature in British Columbia
at the time. And, you know,while that had had always been
(14:28):
an in person, in person job inthe legislature in Parliament.
We figured it out, you know, intwo weeks, how we were going to
continue to sit because we hadto we had to be able to pass new
legislation to get supports outto people and to manage the
(14:51):
crisis. Imagine that, and thenall of a sudden, well gee, we
can also do these other things.that way, right? I think one of
the challenges moving forward isensuring that we don't lose
that, that we don't lose thatability to be flexible and to to
(15:12):
innovate, and include people aswe move forward. And I think
that is a real risk. But whatare we what else are we doing
right that we weren't maybe fiveor 10 years ago, even 15 years
ago, I think we are more open tohaving difficult, vulnerable
(15:35):
conversations about whataccessibility means and what it
doesn't, and what disability is,and what it's not. Those are,
those are uncomfortableconversations, but I think we're
getting better at having those.As Lorenzo we know, at the very
(15:57):
outset, you know, being a, beinga person with a disability, and
sort of feeling like you alwayshad to make other people feel
comfortable around you, ratherthan showing up as yourself with
your, your needs. And, and, andwith the difficulties front and
(16:19):
center. Instead, we are now moreopen to showing up as we are and
saying yeah, and this isn't goodenough, what we what we accepted
as people with disabilities 10or 15 years ago, because there
was really no alternative. Butto power through and be strong
(16:40):
and be adaptable to anenvironment that wasn't friendly
to us, has changed. And, andthat's important, it's important
that people with disabilitiesare able to show up and be
honest about the barriers thatare in front of them, and have
others take responsibility forremoving those barriers. That is
(17:02):
a fundamental shift that we seenow written into the legislation
written into the AccessibleCanada Act, a definition of
disability based on the socialmodel of disability. That, that
takes the onus off theindividual to advocate for their
needs in a system and aroundissues that are systemic, and
(17:26):
and puts that onus on thesystems to remove those
barriers, that is fundamentallya culture shift at the at at the
core that ultimately will leadlead to a different interaction
(17:48):
for people with disabilities andour country. But we have to get
it right. And we have to startacting and and I agree. Action
beats intent every single time.And we have to we have to start
doing more of it.
Lorin MacDonald (18:05):
Yeah, if I can add to what Stephanie has said
that possible.
Dean Askin (18:11):
Go ahead. jump right in.
Lorin MacDonald (18:13):
Yeah. And just because there were so many
points that you were raisingStephanie, that reminded me some
other thing. Lawyer, the legalprofession, also had to very
quickly shift the way thatthings have always been done.
And but when they made thatshift, for example, we used to
have to pack you know, document,who back in the day. In this day
(18:40):
and age lawyers still do and aswell as the medical profession
so quickly that when theyeliminated and also in person,
child and the teacher legalprocedures were not happening,
as we talked about COVID. So thetransition moved to online with
increased accessibility forpeople with disabilities. And
(19:01):
it's really the concept ofuniversal design, that it's not
just for those people who livewith LD, but it's good for
everyone. And the accessibleCanada Act. Anthony at the human
rights lawyer, I'm mindful ofthe fact that the broaden
definition of what a disabilityis, as it appears in the
(19:24):
accessible Canada Act isexceptional, need to be accepted
by all of the government bodiesbeing the definition because
some areas of government havenarrower or more restrictive
definition. And with respect topeople with disability and I did
(19:49):
came up with a while I waslistening to you, we have to
move from compliance to defiancewhat do I mean by that? That is
pretty good. But what does thatmean? Is that because people
with disabilities have alwaysbeen taught or ingrained that we
(20:13):
should accept what is offered,be grateful for, you know,
whatever accessibility probe itmay be offered. But now what
we're seeing, and I thought ofthis technique that you were
talking about air travel, wehave moved away from compliance,
this is no longer good enough,it is no longer acceptable, it
(20:36):
is no longer dignified it like ahuman right, and have shifted
all the way to defy him. Andrightly so. And even though
people say, Oh, you disabledpeople are always angry. There's
a reason for that. It's a reasonwhy we're angry. But also what
(20:56):
we have seen is, think about it1015 years ago, once a tick
tock, how about Instagram? Iremember, you know, Facebook was
just starting out when I was inlaw school. The people with
disabilities have learned how toleverage the power of social
media. And we have all learnedso much from the inequities of
(21:22):
air travel with those stunningexample videos of people with
disabilities, how their rightsare trampled on. And images are
powerful. And that is movingthings forward. So I would say
that that is a big advantagethat we have now that we did not
(21:44):
have 15 years ago, because it'sreally creating a movement,
pardon the pun, to make changehappen.
Dean Askin (21:53):
Brad, I want to get your perspective on this. You've
heard what you've heard whatStephanie and Lorin have said,
but I want to bring Brad intothe conversation here. What do
you think we're getting righttoday about accessibility, that
maybe we weren't 5, 10 or 15years ago?
Brad McCannell (22:12):
Again, it's that broad perspective that we're
doing is something that's quite,quite different. But the other
thing that we're doing right,is, we're really getting people
with lived experience involvedin the discussion. And we're
respecting that the concept oflived experience isn't simply
people with disabilities,caregivers have a very unique
(22:37):
lived experience. And it's veryimportant to bring that into the
discussion as well. So beingaware of of people with lived
experience really are inbroadening natto to include
caregivers. And indeed, though,facility operators and owners,
they have a lived experience,too, and not all of its
positive. So broadening thatout, I think it's one of the
(22:59):
things that we're really gettingright, is understanding that
it's, it's not a very narrowfocus, you know, the thing about
disability is anyone access isaccess is everything. And
everything is access. Access isa moving target. The more access
you create, the more you'regoing to need, because that's
the nature of inclusion. But Ithink what we're getting right
(23:21):
is, is understanding thatbroader picture. One of the
things that we've done reallywell, you know, the Battlecry,
right? Nothing about us withoutthis. The understanding, though,
is, it doesn't mean go ask awheelchair user, or go as
someone who was minded, it meanswhy it doesn't even mean forming
a committee and having ablebodied people dutifully taking
(23:43):
notes and try to turn that intopolicy. Nothing about us without
us means putting people withdisabilities and decision making
positions. And that's startingto happen. And that's what we're
doing right?
Dean Askin (23:54):
There's those fundamental shifts that that you
mentioned, and all theseprogressive things are
happening, despite the fact thatthe legal and medical
professions are still using faxmachines. But out of all that
progress, what do you thinkstill needs to change the most?
There's one or two things whatwould come to mind whoever wants
(24:14):
to jump in.
Stephanie Cadieux (24:16):
Attitudes. Attitudes around disability
still have to change there'sways we still need for people to
understand that that disabilityis just another way of
experiencing the world. And andwe need to build on the
(24:37):
willingness to try new thingsand fail forward. There is a
level of fear that keeps peoplefrom acting from keeps people
from from doing what's necessaryto become accessible and there's
what if I get it wrong? What ifI say the wrong thing what well
(24:59):
You'll learn, but it's better tobe doing something. And trying,
then, than to than to sit, sitstill and wait, wait for
perfection, wait to be toldexactly what you have to do by a
law. We don't, we don't wantthat. This is about being open
(25:22):
and changing and, and all ofthis is going to evolve. It's
not going to happen in one fellswoop. So I think that's really
important that we have to be, wehave to be open and conscious of
of what we're doing and whatwe're trying to do. So that we
(25:43):
can learn.
Dean Askin (25:44):
Let's get Brad's perspective here for a minute.
And then Lorin, I know you'vegot something you'd like to add
to this.
Brad McCannell (25:50):
What needs to change the most is the built
environment. The reason we'vefocused so much of the Rick
Hansen foundation on adultenvironment, excuse me, is none
of the other pillars ofdisability, whether it's
employment, transportation,communication, WebEx, none of
them can really thrive unlessthe built environment itself is
(26:10):
accessible. Right? Even ifyou're working from home, you're
working in a built environment.So for us, the focus had to be
on getting that builtenvironment, right? You know,
cuz Conference Board of Canadadid a terrific stir survey on
this. And we just asked them,What if just office space and
retail space, if those two alonewere accessible on the Rick
(26:35):
Hansen, excessivelycertification scale, at our base
minimum, what would happen ifthose two jurisdictions were
accessible, and what wouldhappen would be $16.8 billion
will be added to the grossdomestic product, because I can
get into buildings because I canwork there now. Because you're
respecting people on both sidesof the counter. So it's not we
(26:58):
talked about the agingpopulation all the time. But one
of the things that getsforgotten is it needs the
workforce is aging as well. Soall these elements apply on both
sides of the counter. So it's,it's a really important piece to
understand all of these thingsgo together, and we're doing
really well in some things. Butother things are lagging behind.
(27:18):
And the built environment, isthe key thing to make everything
else work.
Dean Askin (27:23):
You know, there's a real cross section of
perspectives coming out in thisconversation. Well, that's why
we wanted all three of you onthe show for this episode. You
know, Lorin, what did you wantto add to this?
Lorin MacDonald (27:35):
I've asked her to definitely point it that
thumb, people organization gethung up on to set Tapani, that
perfection P we have to get thatright. It's imperative, whereas
people with disabilities arevery candid about, let's go with
progress over perfection, thatthat let's get the movement
(27:59):
happening because you can becomeso paralyzed. But, again, bad
veterans the word, but it canbecome unwilling to don't.
Because you have that fear ofnot getting it right. You're
absolutely right, definitely inthe we get so hung up of people
(28:24):
with our disability get hung upon what the proper term, you
know, how do I engage one of theinteraction and what it takes it
stop and take a beat. And justlike what I did, now, realizing
that certain words are notrespectful. Say, Oh, that was
(28:45):
wrong, you know, I apologize,you learn from it and move on.
And you do better movingforward. And we also need to
teach ship to beyond compliance,because the minimum is exactly
that the minimum and somebaselines are very, very low.
And so we're seeing examples oforganizations and people that
(29:09):
are going beyond the minimumwhich is important. And so I
have some thoughts about whatneeds to change most. And it's
hard to pick one because thereare so many things that need to
shift. I think that there needsto be a holistic approach to
(29:31):
accessibility and and disabilityinclusion. And for example, Nova
Scotia, their accessibilitydirectorate, put that in their
justice department file, whichautomatically, you know, help
coordinate policymaking. Andtake note that disability
(29:54):
inclusion is a key governmentpriority. But when you have a
standard Long minister for aminute, the Ontario minister for
seniors and accessibility, youknow, and how is that? Yes, we
do have a designated Ministeryay. But it's seniors and
(30:17):
accessibility and disability,which is at the bottom of the
social spectrum, in the view ofproviding support. So that
holistic view needs to happen.And let's talk about poverty
reduction, because that iscritical. For so many people
(30:38):
with disabilities who are livingin poverty, they live below the
poverty line, and theyexperience homelessness. And why
is that because there are bloodincome support system across the
country, across the country thatdoes not make a dip not deport
(30:59):
people with disabilities. Havinga meaningful life, it's not even
deporting them covering therent, or the essential around
their their disability need, isalso tied to the federal
(31:21):
disability tax credit, which canbe problematic because of the
very narrow definition of thatcredit. So it needs to be that
of disability. Within thatcredit, though, there needs to
be cohesion, there needs to becollaboration around all of the
(31:44):
disability support. Because ifyou move from one province to
another, and you are a personwith a disability, you may be
better, oftentimes worse offthan you were before. And that
is not affecting dignity forpeople in this country, people
(32:04):
with disabilities. And it's alsocertainly not respecting
intersectionality. Because ifyou are an indigenous person
living with a disability, youhave multiple layers of
oppression that are extremelydifficult to manage. And we need
to recognize from a human rightsperspective, the a person with a
(32:27):
disability isn't just a personwith a disability, they have
other identities, intersectingidentity that make things more
difficult. So it's not an easyquestion to answer with respect
to what needs to change themost. Because there are
(32:47):
competing priorities. They allneed to happen at the same time,
because they're devastating forpeople in the country.
Jeannette Campbell (32:59):
I'm gonna just gonna jump in and say, that
kind of leads us to a question,a couple of questions down our
list, but I feel like we've sortof unpacked a lot in that change
the most question, lessonlearned full podcast just on
that topic in the future, whichI think would make an amazing
(33:21):
conversation and a great, greatpiece for people to learn from,
but who has to lead the way? Forthis? Is it is it the disability
community through advocacy? Isit government through
legislation? Is it big businessthat needs to step up? Or is it?
(33:42):
Is it a combination of things?What? Who has to leave? It's a
combination.
Stephanie Cadieux (33:48):
Yeah, I think that's the that's the challenge,
right? It's accessibility, iseverybody's business.
Accessibility has to be a partof every conversation at the
start, not at the end. Not whenwe're looking at how do we patch
this, to make it work forsomeone with a disability, but
instead, we're starting on thisnew policy, this new product,
(34:10):
this new website, whatever itmight be, how do we are how are
we building accessibility? Andhow are we making sure that
people with disabilities areincluded, and then you add on
top of that, the complexity of,of a country and all of the
pieces, the multi levels ofgovernment, the private sector,
and so on, and how you can't Wecan't force everyone to
(34:36):
harmonize their efforts and havehave things work smoothly from
place to place. But we canchoose harmonization we can
choose to, to do things togetherand with with the proper lens
and to make sure that thingswork. across so that people
(35:01):
regardless of their ability, andregardless of what programs,
what services they might need,that they can accept, expect a
level of consistency across thecountry. I think that's
important.
Lorin MacDonald (35:18):
Of course, you know, our government needs to
lead by example. They need totake a look around and see who
is not at the table and createsafe spaces. And they also need
to ensure that the accessibilityis there to provide and enable
participation, because it wasgovernment, the federal
(35:42):
government who was telling usCanadian, that, hey, the numbers
of people who have reported thatthey live with one or more
disability, they want a sevenpick that up 5%, from the last
survey on Canadians withdisability, and that's reported,
(36:03):
there is a number of those whochoose not to report who do not
want to disclose. So why didthat 5% Jump happen? What what
changed since the last report in2017, we've had a global
pandemic, we've had greaterawareness and love thigma around
(36:24):
mental wellness. And we have anincreasing aging population. And
so government is the one thatgot that data collection,
government needs to do more withdata collection, because data
drive to datum and so governmentneed to set the standard. I
(36:46):
don't care if it's federalgovernment, provincial,
government, municipal governmentand government, they need to set
the standard and model thebehavior that will create
change. But the thing is, if thepolitical will is not there,
across any government actors,I'm not pointing out any
(37:08):
particular political partybecause it doesn't matter if the
political will is not there,then no matter how much advocacy
and grassroots mobilization isdone by the disability
community, not much it's goingto happen. I think all we need
to do is look at the recentCanada disability benefit, and
(37:30):
the inclusion in the federalbudget. That was disappointing.
I think that's a mild word touse for many Canadians with
disability to were consulted,for provided testimony and all
of that feedback, only to see aless than satisfactory amount
(37:55):
allocated in the federal bloodbudget. And that was that was
heartbreaking for many. And sowe move from government talk
about people with disability toart advocating, but sometimes it
doesn't work. Sometimes it does.I point to the air
transportation industry, we'reseeing that change happening,
(38:18):
because it all happened at thegrassroot level. When the move
to business, the business casefor hiring people with
disabilities in that knew it hadbeen around for over a decade,
it came out of the theRethinking disability in the
private sector report that wasreleased in 2012. At the behest
(38:42):
of the federal government, to,you know, point this out, but
the thing is, it's questionablehow much the dial has actually
moved, and doesn't reallysupport the spectrum of people
with disability. And no matterwhat their disability may be,
(39:03):
are they really receivingmeaningful employment? All
level, not just entry level, butall level. So really, what it
comes down to is, yeah, tonefrom the top of the thing from
your leader to department, butalso so in representation. You
(39:26):
need to have people withdisability in positions of
power, who are part of thedecision making process. And
that is not happening to a greatdegree, from what I have seen
across all government sector. Soit's a combination of factors
(39:48):
that you need to be involved tomove, make train traffic.
Stephanie Cadieux (39:52):
It's a it's a combination. Absolutely. Because
as I said, accessibility iseverybody's business right? Uh,
the accessible Canada Act putsthe onus on government and
federally regulated industriesto look within themselves to
remove and prevent barriers. Andthat's important, right again,
because usually, in the pastindividuals, although the law
(40:16):
said they couldn't bediscriminated against, in order
for them to get what they need,they were fighting the same
battles over and over again, onan individual basis, which is
not, which isn't moving thedial. So while the system, the
onus now is on the system,whether that be government or
private sector, industries thatare regulated by the federal
(40:39):
government, or, or whether it'sat the community level, it's
great that that that onus is onthem. But we have to remember
that it's also critical thatpeople with disabilities are
consulted, in those in thoseprocesses in the work that's
being done, or they are no one'sgonna get it right. There are
(41:01):
people with disabilities, theirfeedback, it has to be factored
in, they have to be asked, andbecause people with disabilities
know what they need to thrive,and they're gonna be willing to
have those conversations. Nowthere's, there's complexity
around that, of course, as well.We don't want to burn people out
in this in this process. Butit's about that willingness of
(41:24):
organizations to to bevulnerable, and ask, why do I
need to do? And to theiremployees? You know, does
everybody have what they need tobe successful here? Those are
the questions. But it's so so ifit comes to that, then I guess
ultimately, I would say theleadership has to come from a
(41:46):
top. The leadership sets thetone, and the expectations for
what is going to happen, whetherthat be in a government, or
whether that be in a mom and popcoffee shop. The reality is, the
leadership decides thataccessibility is important.
Jeannette Campbell (42:05):
Brad, let's hear from you.
Brad McCannell (42:07):
It's all hands on deck. But part of the problem
in the past is everybody's beentrying to do this in isolation.
And unless we all work togetheron this, it's it's gonna
continue being blockingourselves, really, that
community of people withdisability is fighting to get
higher code requirements andstiffer penalties. And that's
really good and reallyimportant. I mean, I believe in
(42:30):
codes. I'm on the board ofaccessible standards, Canada, I
believe in code. But I alsounderstand it takes more than
just cold codes to meet the kindof change we're looking for. We
need a cultural shift. And theonly way to get that is to bring
industry to the table. We'vebeen diligently pushing codes
higher and pushing penaltieshigher. But nobody brought
(42:52):
industry to the table. They'rethe ones paying for this after
all. Yeah. So at the end of theday, if we don't bring them to
the table to the discussion,then they just see it as more
regulation more read table. Oh,my gosh, now you got all the
good parking space. What else doyou want? It's that kind of
thing. If we don't bring them tothe table while we're having a
(43:14):
discussion, then there's goingto be more and more resistance,
Dean Askin (43:17):
Powerful insights. How I mean, 2040 is 16 years
away, how optimistic are youthat we are going to be barrier
free? Under the AccessibleCanada Act by January 1, 2040?
Out of all the things you'vesaid still have to change. How
what's what's your level ofoptimism? Brad? I'll turn to you
(43:43):
first, on this one.
Brad McCannell (43:45):
Optimistic Yes. But it's not a lot of time.
People think 16 years is not inthe in the world of
construction. My focus is on thebuilt environment. And in that
world planning cycles are 20year builders, typically we've
got three projects right now,and it's one of your programs.
And so the important thing is toget to them early, important
(44:07):
thing is to stop letting themmake new mistakes. We have to
this code minimum accessstrategy is knocking us down
because we can't keep up. It's agame of whack a mole right now.
You miss Valley says okay, we'regonna build a new library. And
everybody runs over there we go.Okay, here, it has to be
accessible. Here's why. Here'swho. We're gonna build a new rec
(44:29):
center. Everybody runs overthere. Okay, we've got to make
it accessible. Here's why. Andhere's who, and nobody's doing
any of the connective issues.It's 16 years is not a very long
period of time. But people haveto recognize that industry gets
on board with this. If they seethe return on investment, then,
(44:51):
yeah, we're in pretty goodshape. But also recognizing that
access by 24 There's an officerthink there is no end date on
this. Now, when someone says Iwant my belly to be accessible,
the next thing out of my mouthis to go to wheelchair users to
people who are blind to peoplewho are deaf. neurodiverse
(45:12):
human. I don't know what makesus think that by 2014 We've
solved everything is a bunch ofnew things we're gonna come up,
take the orange is gonna bringmore and more people into the
inclusion bracket. And so thisidea that there's an end date to
it, I find troubling.
Lorin MacDonald (45:30):
Yeah, and I want to say that being an
Ontario which is the mostpopulous province in the
country, we've all seen what'shappened with the accessible
Accessibility for Ontarians withDisabilities Act, the A ODA,
whenever Pathan, 20 and 2005 thevision of an A barrier free
(45:52):
Ontario by 2025 20 years, nobrainer, of course, we're gonna
get there. We're nowhere close.We've got eight months, less
than that, before we hit 2025.And we're nowhere near reaching
that level of attainment. And sothe festival Canada Act came in
(46:12):
five years ago. And so again,that was another 20 year
projection. But people need tobe aware and manage expectation
that this only relate to thefederal government and federally
regulated agency, it is not apanacea to make the whole
country accessible. It is notthe same as the Americans with
(46:37):
Disabilities Act, which peoplethink is exactly the same, it is
not, for good reason. We are notthe United States of America,
also a very good thing. And sowe don't have the critical mass
that the American path, we havea country that is large. That is
(46:58):
it spread out, there is a lot ofremote and rural community that
you don't see as much in the inin the United States. And so
right, then that's going to bedifferent. So it's all going to
come down to, you know, how ourtimelines being set? What are
(47:19):
the details around that? How arewe measuring accessibility? How
are they getting implemented inthe first place? What about and
the big downfall with a Oda hasbeen accessible enforcement of
the accessibility standard. Bigargument, oh, we want the carrot
(47:40):
or the stick approach, we'll gowith the carrot. Well, the
carrot means nothing. Becausepeople are like, well, when
taken under advisement, but thennothing happened. Why? Because
they could continue in this waywith impunity, because they're
(48:00):
not going to hit any kind ofenforcement. Like I said before,
the business case for hiringpeople with disability, this is
over a decade, and it with thecandidate with the right thing
to do, it's good for yourbusiness, that that that is the
other thing. People don't care,unless you hit them where I hurt
(48:25):
with it in the pocketbook. Youknow, there won't be in the
there won't be the motivation tochange. So is it possible? I
highly doubt it. I love theirthe picture and how they set the
timeline. How are they going toimplement? How are they going to
(48:45):
enforce you know, the standardthat what needs to happen?
Because you see with a Oda backin 2005, I was in the house in
Queens Park when it wasunanimously passed, we were all
celebrating it. It going by inthe blink of an eye.
Dean Askin (49:04):
And the last word on this question goes to you
Stephanie, you're the ChiefAccessibility Officer of this
country. How optimistic are youthat the goal is going to be
achieved by January 1, 2040?
Stephanie Cadieux (49:17):
At this moment, it is still possible.
But we have to we have to get tothat action. We cannot spend
more time talking about it. Wehave to spend more time doing
it. There is a there are thereare pockets, I would say of a
(49:41):
real progress places where thereare big strides being made. And
and I think we can learn fromthose and certainly I'll be
watching those in my role andand trying to amplify them and
share them but there is a Thereis much work to do to really
(50:03):
embed a different way ofthinking about accessibility and
disability, if we're going toget there, right, and that's
really what it comes down to, itcomes down to it becoming the
way we do things, right,designing for everyone, from the
beginning, if we if we can't getthat that mindset entrenched,
(50:27):
then progress will be slow, ifnot impossible. And, and I end
and I echo, Lauren, that comeswith an essential, an essential
element of political will,
Jeannette Campbell (50:44):
I think we need to do a three part
conversation. So we're going tobe in touch with you again, so
that so that we can do that. Andso I think what I'm gonna do is
we've covered so much, you'vetalked about so many things. I'm
gonna throw this over to Deanfor, for him to ask the final
(51:04):
question of the podcast.
Dean Askin (51:07):
Yeah, I've just been, I've just been to these
are such powerfully insightfulanswers. I mean, we talked about
so much, you guys, you raise somany important points. Is there
anything, you know that wehaven't brought into this
conversation and talked aboutthat we should mention before we
wrap it up here?
Stephanie Cadieux (51:25):
Probably lots. I guess, I would say I'd
mentioned that I would encouragefolks who are interested in
this, whether they be peopledisabilities, whether they be
people in the private sector,whether they be just Joe
Average, if you're interested init, and interested in the
(51:46):
progress, I would, I would leadyou to, to our our website on
the the Government of Canadapage to my report, my first
report is there. And I made fourrecommendations in the first
report, they are around the needfor more regulation, things that
can be enforced data, betterdata, and what are we measuring
(52:09):
dedicated funding to make thishappen and make it and so that
it isn't the thing you do whenyou find money, but rather an
acceptance that this is asimportant as the heat or the
lights. And so accessibility hasto have its own line in the
budget and mandatory trainingbecause we have to get that
(52:32):
culture shift, we have to embedinto our decision making. What
is this accessibility? When isit important? Every time? What
does that mean? And so those arethe things I recommended in in
year one. The first report, Iwill follow up this year, we're
going to look more specificallyat at employment and, and a
(52:56):
little on transportation,because of the because of the
focus in the media about airtravel. But there's a there is a
long way to go. And as long asthe NCAA said they, you know, it
is about the stick. It's aboutthe timelines, we've got a long
way to go. And there has to becommitment. Before if we're
(53:19):
gonna get there.
Lorin MacDonald (53:20):
I would just say that, again, from my human
rights law background, I knowthat most people do not intend
to exclude or discriminate. Butthe impact that matters, it
doesn't matter if Well, I didn'tknow I didn't mean to I didn't
the impact don't matter.mandatory training completely
(53:43):
agree. But it cannot beperformative has to be
substantial. It has to integratepeople with disability to
provide the training. We alsoneed to be training our younger
people with disabilities on howto be self advocate and then how
to be external advocate becauseit's a specific skill, the
(54:08):
tracing era definitely being aformer MLA, you will know that
it's definitely an acquiredskill, some are born with it and
supplement it other most need tolearn how to be effective
because if you don't know how tobe effective, you're just
spinning your wheels and when Ialways tried to say is always be
(54:33):
kind and lead with empathybecause you don't know what
anyone is really going through.It could be disability related
it could be unrelated todisability. So the spend all
assumption out the questions ifit's appropriate. That's the
only way we're gonna get throughsuch a complex issue because
(54:57):
changing centuries of disabilityoppression in not going to be
undone within a decade, and giveher grace for the progress that
we do make. So that's what Ialways try to lead from in my
own practice. But what a greatconversation. Thank you so much.
Dean Askin (55:18):
Brad? I'll give the last word to you. We've heard
from Stephanie and Lorin, I'llgive the last word to you. What
are your final thoughts? Isthere anything else that you
think is important to mention,before we wrap things up?
Brad McCannell (55:30):
Oh, there's two things. The most important thing
in my mind, is unless we havecommon language and common
methodology, rooted instandardized training, to
measure the accessibility,without we can't measure it.
Right now, there's nationalcodes and model codes and
provincial codes and chartercities have their own codes and
(55:52):
their disability committees andhis personal preference, and
it's all the stuff out there,everybody's doing their own
thing. So it's not measurable.One person calls accessible
another person doesn't. And sowithout common language, common
methodology, none of it'smeasurable, it's not measurable,
it's not manageable. It's notmanageable, it's not fun, simple
(56:15):
as that. So until we get on thatpage together, we're always
going to be struggling, which isthe great advantage. So the
recounts and foundation since weCertification Program is a level
playing field, it takes you canbe laid over any code anywhere
and say this is what you got.And now we're all talking the
(56:36):
same language. Now I can measureit within my portfolios within
my province or right across thecountry. But the second thing
is, I think it was, Stephanie,that mentioned compliance has
changed to defiance. I wouldagree with that. I think as a
community, we need to demandmore, it was so great to buy a
brand new house, and I have todo major renovations just to
(57:00):
move into it. So as a community,I think we need to demand more
and not let this kind of thingthat building a house for an 18
to 55 year old male, which thecurrent standard is just
insanity. But at the same time,we have to be careful to we have
to include it, we have to bringthem along with this. Because if
(57:20):
we don't if we keep keep puttingthese two poles, these opposing
factions, we're not going to getanywhere.
Jeannette Campbell (57:27):
This this really has been such a great
conversation. And it has beensuch an important conversation
to have especially consideringhad this week in particular, as
we mentioned, at the top of theshow, we're in the midst of
national accessibility, weak for2024. There's so many things
(57:47):
that you shared with us and somany points that I think we're
gonna have to unpack. One thingI will say is that we're going
to make sure that we put in theshow notes have access to that
report that you've referred to.So that listeners will be able
to, to click on to that. And oneof the things I'm going to leave
(58:09):
with is that I've now met twomore people who also obviously,
quote Elvis without knowingyou're quoting Elvis, and by
saying a little lessconversation, a little more
action. So, so thank you forcoming on the show for sharing
your insights and experiences Ion you know, on the report card,
(58:30):
for lack of a better term on theoverall state of things with
accessibility in this country.And I guess we could say,
judging from comments at thebeginning, that we've got a
passing grade, it might be sortof that 50 With the Asterix next
to it. And so there's definitelywe knew this already, but you're
(58:52):
confirming for us and giving ussome concrete examples of room
for improvement, and things thatwe need to do so that so that we
do end up in Canada with this aplus by 2040. And hopefully this
conversation is going to getpeople thinking more consciously
about accessibility and all ofthe reasons why it can't and it
(59:14):
shouldn't. And it won't be an afterthought,
Dean Askin (59:17):
I have to say thanks for me as well. Stephanie and
Lorin and Brad out there in BC.So many great insights. And you
know, the population is agingand disability is on the rise. I
mean, it's now 27% of thepopulation. 8 million Canadians
have a disability. Soaccessibility simply becoming
(59:39):
more and more important. And aswe said at the top of the show,
I mean, accessibility justbenefits everyone. I came across
a LinkedIn post where the posterreally summed up accessibility
and, you know, here's what shesaid making things easy to use
for everyone is up treatingeveryone with respect.
Jeannette Campbell (01:00:03):
And I think that that's a great insight for
us to end on, and added to theincredible insights that you've
shared with us. And so thank youagain, for coming and sharing
and educating and informing andhaving this conversation. And so
that's it for this episode ofYou can't spell inclusion
(01:00:23):
without a D. I'm JeanetteCampbell. And I hope that you'll
join us next month for part twoin our series on accessibility,
where we'll be looking at thestate of accessibility and
business, and that is inbranding, marketing,
advertising, and social media.And that's coming on June 18.
Dean Askin (01:00:42):
That's right, Jeannette. If you're listening
to this right now and you're inmarketing, or advertising, or
you're a brand manager or asocial media manager, Hey, be
sure to tune in to thatconversation next month. I'm
Dean askin, and thanks again forlistening, wherever, whenever,
and on whatever podcast appyou're listening from. Join us
(01:01:03):
each episode as we haveinsightful conversations like
this one with Stephanie Cadieuxand Lauren MacDonald and Brad
McCannell, and exploreddisability inclusion in business
and in our communities. From allthe angles you can't spell
inclusion without a D isproduced in Toronto, Canada by
the Ontario DisabilityEmployment Network. All rights
(01:01:25):
reserved. Our podcast productionteam, executive producer and
host Jeanette Campbell, producerSudha fo associate producer and
host Dean askin audio editingand production by Dean askin.
Our podcast theme is last summerby Ericsson. If you have
feedback or comments about anepisode, contact us at info at
Odin network.com. That'sinfo@odnetwork.com. Join us each
(01:01:48):
episode for insights from expertguests as we explore the power
of inclusion, the businessbenefits of inclusive hiring and
why disability is an importantpart of the Diversity Equity and
Inclusion conversation. Listento you can't spell inclusion
without a D on pod bean orwherever you find your favorite podcast.
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