Ep. 23: The State of Accessibility in Canada (Part 2)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dean Askin (00:03):
You Can't Spell Inclusion Without a D. The
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhost, Jeannette Campbell and
Dean Askin.

(00:26):
From the bird's eye view to acloser look at accessibility, hi
there, and welcome to episode 23of You Can't Spell Inclusion
Without a D. I'm Dean Askin.Thanks for joining us for this
episode, part two in our serieson the state of accessibility in
Canada. Now, if you haven'theard part one yet, well, be
sure to have a listen to that agreat conversation about the

(00:47):
overall state of accessibilityin this country with three of
the top voices on the issue.

Jeannette Campbell (00:53):
And hello, I'm Jeannette Campbell with you
here at the other mic and thisepisode, we're going to be
moving in for that closer lookat accessibility of branding,
marketing, advertising andsocial media content created by
businesses in Canada. We'rehaving this conversation,
because the accessibility ofcontent for everyone can affect

(01:15):
a business's profitability andbrand reputation.

Dean Askin (01:19):
That's right, Jeannette, you've just said
pretty much the same thing. Butthe technology company XR
Extreme Reach says in theintroduction of its recently
released 2024 Global AdvertisingAccessibility Index and Trends
Report. Now that report focuseson accessibility of TV
advertising, and the reportnotes Canada is the world leader

(01:40):
in this because of our federalbroadcasting regulations. Every
TV ad that airs in Canada has tohave closed captioning.
as the Extreme Reach report putsit.

And Dean but there's always a but. And the
use of other accessibilityfeatures in TV advertising,
audio description, and signlanguage is almost non existent

Dean Askin (01:55):
Yeah. And I'm thinking What about print
material Jeannette? I mean,print ads and marketing flyers
globally. And the same goes forclosed captioning and digital
video, because of the technicalrestrictions in the digital
and brochures, hey, they're notdead yet, despite the digital
player process
age. I mean, we still get thoseweekly sales flyers in our

(02:21):
mailbox at my house. Well,according to the survey on
accessible print materials byStatistics Canada, about 5.2
million Canadians havedifficulty with print materials,
and get this 70% of them havetrouble accessing the alternate
formats they need.

And somehow that's not surprising. And then
there's all the people who useemojis in their social media
posts, they can't be read byscreen readers. I know that this
is a real pet peeve of one ofour guests. And what about all
the websites that are acustomer's first point of
contact with a business?

Dean Askin (02:59):
That's right, Jeannette, well, here's the what
about them. In 2024 across thetop 1 million homepage is
audited by the web a million.There were 56 point 8 million
accessibility errors. Now thatworks out to an average of 56
point errors per page.

And product packaging. How accessible is
that? Accessibility isn't amongthe basic mandatory labeling
requirements for packagedconsumer goods in Canada.

Dean Askin (03:28):
So if you're listening to this right now, and
you're in marketing oradvertising, or you're a brand
manager or a product manager, ora social media manager, or a
webmaster, do we still call themwebmasters these days or a grant
or an outliner. Or even afreelancer who does some or all
of these things.

Well,then you're in for some insights into
what's right. And what's wrongabout accessibility in all these
aspects of marketing,advertising, branding, and
social media, from two peoplewho specialize in helping
businesses make sure whatthey're creating is accessible.

Dean Askin (04:04):
Kelly Thibodeau is the principal of Squarely
Accessible. She focuses oneducating businesses about how
to create accessible website andsocial media content and
accessible documents. She'sjoining us from out in Western
Canada near Winnipeg, Manitoba.

And from Kitchener Waterloo Region in
Ontario Jolene MacDonald ishere. She's the founder and
creative director ofAccessibrand. Her agency helps
busy businesses make sure allaspects of their branding and
marketing are accessible.

Dean Askin (04:34):
And Jeannette you know, they're in an
authoritative position to dothat, because all the staff at
Accessibrand have livedexperience with disability.

So how is it that we build the show and
insightful conversation withexpert guests? Well, Kelly
Thibodeau and Jolene MacDonald,welcome to You Can't Spell
Inclusion Without a D.

Kelly Thibodeau (04:55):
Thanks so much for having me, Dean and
Jeannette. It's Kelly.

Jolene MacDonald (04:59):
Yeah, thanks. Whew, it's Jolene speaking, much
appreciated.

Well, we're really glad that two of you are
here. So let's start thisconversation. So first off, I'd
like to get a sense of why youdo what you do. What is it that
led you to working withbusinesses to educate them and
help them make sure theirbranding, marketing advertising
their websites or social media,the whole gamut? His accessible?

(05:23):
Why is doing this important toyou both?

I'll jump in first, I would say for me, yeah,
I mean, honestly, thisconversation often starts with
legislation, and theorganization that I was working
for at the time, that's where itstarted with them. And I've been
in marketing communications for25 years. And I think that, you
know, it sort of opens the door,but legislation only gets you so

(05:50):
far. So I also have personalexperience, as a caregiver for
my mom who had a disability, andit ignited something in me
around inclusion and belonging,and just really sort of
recognizing that. I thinkaccessibility, you know, post
secondary educationinstitutions, aren't there yet.

(06:11):
People are struggling with, whatdo they do? How do they start?
And I know that it's just notgetting talked about. So that
opportunity was just somethingthat I felt compelled to, to
starting.

What about, what about you, Jolene?

So, I trained as a graphic designer in the
late 90s. I started in theindustry. And then and I was
working with, not for profitsthrough my own design agency
that I owned for many years. Andone of my clients was also
disabled. And I was telling themabout my youngest daughter who
was born with a rare type ofdwarfism. And they were like,

(06:48):
did you know that people withdisabilities can't access media
very well, like, it's not allthe time, but it's a lot of the
time. And so it really had methinking, because I was
advocating already for her,like, wow, my own industry, how
can I make this better? How canI change it. And so I started
researching and studying andtrying to understand and then
learning from people withdisabilities. And then I

(07:10):
actually got very sick, I wasdiagnosed with Ehlers Danlos,
which is a connective tissuedisorder in 2018. I had been not
well for a while, but, you know,they didn't know what it was. So
it was sort of a combination ofthose things that led me to
actually partner out of my otherbusiness and start excessive
brand, because I neededsomething that worked for me.
And my whole motto was, I'mgoing to hire people with

(07:32):
disabilities also, and work toimprove, you know, design and
marketing and make sure that wenot added on and not just focus
on law is actually design itproperly from the beginning.

That makes a lot of sense. It really does.
And so thank you, both of youfor talking to us about why this
is so important and kind of howyour journeys got you here. So
speaking of here, where do youthink we are on the
accessibility barometer rightnow in this country? You know,

(08:06):
when we think about theaccessibility of have all these
things that you were talkingabout? How would you describe
the state of accessibilityagain, in branding, marketing,
social media advertising?

Kelly and I probably have two different
views. similar, but different,right, Kelly? Yeah. Why don't
you go first? Okay, so, becauseit was like 2014, when I sort of
learned about it, I've seen alot of positive change in the
last few years, particularlysince COVID. Happens. A lot of

(08:40):
swing in a positive way. Mycompany does not focus on the
laws, because if we do I thinkpeople won't learn why it's so
important. Although we use it asa secondary sales. Motivation.
It's like, yeah, if you don't doit, you know, you're you can get
fined. So I think there's, thepercentage is still pretty low.

(09:00):
I will say the companies thathave to legally be mandated to
do accessibility, I think areprobably there. But I would say
if you had to put a number onit, it's pretty split and half
or lower, I would say. I'd sayit's like a 40% to 60. But I
don't I don't have the facts onthat. But that's how I feel it
might be a

40% or so not quite a passing grade, but
almost. Okay. And Kelly, what doyou think?

Yeah, I think you know, I think it's really
easy to be critical on anaccessibility conversation, and
for good reason. But I alsothink it's important to be
positive and bring a spirit ofof that into the conversation.
So there's certainly a lot moreorganizations that are really
values driven and values mindedand attracting loyal customer

(09:54):
base because of thatpositioning. So that means that
accessibility it doesn't alwaysmean In that accessibility is
top of mind, but it means thatthey're leaning towards it for
the right reasons, creating someof those internal centers of
excellence. But I think wherethey struggle is then scaling
that out to other parts of theorganization that are

(10:16):
responsible for creating allkinds of content, whether that's
a pitch deck for a presentation,or, you know, a document for
creative campaign or somethinglike that. I think, sometimes
the view is a little bit limitedto like, Oh, we've got that on
lock, like our website, folks.They know accessibility, and

(10:36):
they'd got it. And then thethinking kind of stops there.
Right. So I think, you know,when we kind of like, look at
the reasons why and the climatearound business right now, it
sets a really good stage tostart conversations around
accessibility. And I think, youknow, Jolene, and I both, we
want to work with companies whobelieve what we believe, because

(10:56):
it's a whole different startingpoint, when they're not, you
know, not already thinking thatway. So let's keep building on
the good work by making sure nowthat marketing, communications,
it's accessible as well.

100% agree with Kelly, we want to work with
companies that already know, wedon't want to go out trying to
spend all our time convincingpeople to why. And I mean, I'd
say the majority of our clientsaren't like that. Before it was
and now it's not because theyknow and they they're
understanding, you know, equity,diversity. And inclusion also
includes accessibility. Sothey're learning.

Dean Askin (11:30):
Kelly, I want to jump in here. And you've sort of
touched on this a bit. But Iwant to ask me, you know, in
part one of this series, when wedid our overview to get the high
level look, I mean, we wentright to the top to get that
perspective. And we hadStephanie CAD you, Canada's
Chief Accessibility Officer, onthe show, in part one of this

(11:51):
series, and one of the thingsshe said was that accessibility
needs to be part of everyconversation at the start, not
when we're looking at how topatch things together to make
them accessible. I mean, youknow, when you're having those
initial conversations with, withbusinesses about the
accessibility of their branding,and their marketing
communications, are they indeedstarting to think more about

(12:14):
putting accessibility first? Oris it still primarily an
afterthought? What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, it's a whole evolution, but if
I'm, like, really gonna be 100%,honest, I'd say we're a lot in
the afterthought, space where,you know, people have personal
reasons why they're passionate,and why they care deeply, and
they might be able to sort ofadvocate for, to their boss to
get approval that takessomething like a training

(12:41):
program, but then they come backto their day to day reality. And
they're faced with thecomplexity of what they can
change what they can't change,and, you know, projects that are
already in process versussomething that's new, and, you
know, echoing is, or what youlearn through Stephanie, is when
you can get closer to the start.So almost like this mindset of

(13:02):
what I've heard termed as, likeshifting left, so into
requirements of how can we makeit accessible from the start,
that's where it gets sticky,right? Like when you can
actually look at, you know,everybody has requirements when
they start a project, whetherthat's brand voice and tone,
colors, logos, all that kind ofa thing. And when you're

(13:23):
thinking about accessibility,you create so much more room,
it's a planned part of theprocess. And the opposite of
that is when it gets left on theend, it's heavy, it's risky,
it's the first thing you'regonna drop when that deadline is
like marching down towards you,right? So it's it really like
the sustainability of accessibleprocesses happen, way closer to

(13:48):
the beginning, even though, youknow, sometimes the starting
points aren't quite there yet.But it's that constant
conversation inside. And I thinkthat's, you know, something, I
try to really encourage peopleas well as this won't be the
first time you're thinkingyou're talking about
accessibility that has to keephappening over and over and over
again, you might sound like abroken record. But it's a really

(14:10):
important thing to start gettingpeople to think about

Dean Askin (14:14):
Jolene, what do you find? Is it still an
afterthought?

I would tell you, the majority of businesses
are, are still an afterthought,and it is not. Because they
don't care. It's a lot becausethey don't know. So while I
agree, it should be a priority.It shouldn't be a first
conversation. Comparing my twobusinesses, I sold it as an
afterthought originally, becauseit was like, oh, they'll do

(14:38):
this. And then we do this tomake it accessible. So it always
made it a burden. It always madeit an extra cost when people are
coming to us and they trust thebrand we haven't built in. So
it's not an afterthought. Butthe majority of companies come
to us knowing that they needaccessibility but they haven't
been educated on how it works.So they're still in their
thinking it's still at the end,but they are learning out

(15:00):
through like myself and Kelly,that they can make it all part
of the process. And it doesn'thave to be an additional thing,
we can change their brandcolors, to have rules to make
them work in certainapplications, we can change
digital, we can do these things.And it all works. Right from the
get go. It's just a matter ofreprocessing and thinking

(15:20):
processes.

I'll just add to that to say that I think
accessibility gets a bit of abad rap as being boring or
complicated or too much work andthe web developers job at the
end of the day, right. So partof that growing awareness is
recognizing that there'saccountability across all the
roles within advertising andmarketing, communications, and

(15:43):
sort of doing a little bit ofmyth busting that way, because
it really is something that hasaccountability across the line.

Dean Askin (15:50):
So let's expand on that perspective a little bit.
So if they're not thinking aboutit in the forefront, what are
some of the most common excuses,you hear about why companies
aren't making their marketingmaterials and campaigns
successful? I mean, and, andthat must get frustrating
sometimes. I mean, howfrustrating is that?

People really believe that if it's accessible,
then it's ugly. Like, they can'thave that intersection of
creative and beautiful andfunctioning and accessible as
part of the same idea set. So Ithink that's like, number one,
and or a disbelief of like,well, people with disabilities

(16:30):
won't buy our products orservices, or they're not in our
audience already. So they're ina little bit of denial about
exactly, you know, like, Ialways try to help people really
think differently aboutdisability, because everything
you do for accessibilityimproves the user experience and
improves viability for search,right. So, you know, we're so

(16:51):
conditioned to be able to thinkwe can see disability when you
think about like signage foraccessible parking or accessible
washrooms. It's people inwheelchairs, it's somebody in a
wheelchair. But disability is somuch more than that. And like,
what if you broke your leg? Forme? What if I broke my right arm
tomorrow? Could I still use mymouse the same way? Right? So I

(17:12):
think there those are a coupleof the big ones for sure. But
yeah, Jolene?

Yeah, no, it was like, it's cost. The goal,
oh, my God, we can't afford it.Like, because they think they
have to redo everything, ratherthan think in small chunks. I
think the biggest thing I see ifpeople are just so scared of it,
and afraid that they're going tooffend somebody that they don't
do it. And we've talked aboutthat in some of our podcasts
that we did before. About why,you know, people don't do

(17:39):
accessibility, but for from adesign perspective, 100% We were
like, oh, it's gonna be ugly. Ican't do that. existing brands
that we've seen, well, we couldnever not use that color. I
mean, it's our brand. I'm like,oh, no, you can use your color.
But you have to change how youuse your color. You know, it's
just different applications,different ways of thinking, as a

(18:00):
designer, it's just anotherparameter. If you have a client
that tells you, you can't usegreen, you can't use green.
Like, if you it's same thing, weshould not use scripty fonts for
corporate America like or Canadaor you know, anything like that,
unless you're going to awedding. These are just things
that we have to think about.

It's pretty, it's pretty incredible, some of
what you're both talking aboutwhen I think about the market
size, you know, so forbusinesses, this should be like
sort of an automatic, meet, goback, make sure everything's
accessible, because you do wantto tap into this market, hang
globally, the disability marketis 53% of the population

(18:44):
globally. And like, so forCanada, right, we're at 20 27%
of the Canadian population, butthen you factor in friends and
family, you know, people whocare about disability about
accessibility and make theirdecisions sometimes based on
that, and who, whose brandthey're going to be loyal to. So

(19:05):
you know, I think Kelly, you hadsaid something about, there can
be a lot of myth busting. AndJulian, you were kind of talking
about, you know, sometimes theyjust don't know what they don't
know. And I think that's, that'sreally fascinating is that
you're coming across that in,in, in the advertising world.
Now, Kelly, I know that you do alot of workshops on Accessible

(19:26):
Social Media. What are some ofthe big accessibility failures
or faux pas that you've comeacross?

Yeah, again, I think it's there's there's
tactical things like usingemojis to replace words or using
ASCII art in social media, likecaption things like that, or not
using image descriptions or alttext or things like that, but
more than anything, I also thinkit's people think that they

(19:58):
can't start it until they get itall right and perfect. And so I
really want to encourage peopleto like, discover their
curiosity around what's an easything that you can change today?
Can you start using camel paceor initial caps on every word in
a hashtag, right? And know thatas part of changing that
behavior, you're going to do itright once and you're going to

(20:21):
miss it the next time, you'regoing to come back to it type
thing and keep building fromthere. So I think, you know,
there's, there's the the simplethings that you can start
changing. But there's also themindset around, you know, like,
just taking one piece at a timeand keep going from there. And
then having said those internalconversations, right, that

(20:43):
create consistency. But youknow, people often think when
they see something trendy onsocial media means they should
jump on it too. Andunfortunately, a lot of those
trends are not accessible.Right? When I think about
trending audio is an example.You know, you might see the
words that somebody's trying tospeak, but you you're not if you
can't hear the audio, you don'tget like trending, how is

(21:05):
trending audio work for anaudience that can't access audio
content? I'm not really sure.

Yeah, there's so many considerations
that that people have to thinkabout. But I do like what you're
saying, but, you know, juststart, just try, you know,
often, you know, on on our team,we talk about Perfection is the
enemy of done. And it's like, ifyou just if you're waiting to
get it perfect, you're probablynever gonna get it done. And you

(21:32):
learn so much from exploring andmaking mistakes and trying and
retrying. And, and so you, youknow, you'll actually move
forward much, much better. AndJolene, what about you on the
branding and marketingcommunication side of things?
What, what accessibilityfailures or full pause do you

(21:53):
come across,

I think it's similar to what you were just
talking about where people arejust afraid to try, they're not
perfect. We see that most oftenwhere they think they have to
know it all, rather than startwith something small. That's how
I learned, I still don't know atall. I mean, you just got to
start somewhere with goodintention. I think for us, when

(22:15):
I started this company, I reallyanticipate that I would be
designing and doing moremarketing for companies rather
than teaching them. But we verymuch moved into teaching how to
fix it, because we're the samepeople that they are now. And
we're we've changed how wethink. I think the biggest thing
that we find our people are veryafraid of talking about

(22:39):
disability in general, like froma societal perspective, and
they're afraid that they'regoing to offend someone. So if
they do it wrong, then they'vebeen threatened by our federal
and provincial laws, thatthey're gonna get big fines. So
they just don't do anythinguntil they get in trouble. Or
that they feel like they'regonna figure it out later. And

(23:00):
then it just doesn't become partof it. Design is such a big open
context, both print bothdigital, environmental,
physical, it's all across theboard. But all the same
principles can be applied tothat through like inclusive
design practices. Kelly wastalking about different things,

(23:20):
curb cuts. Well, it's not justpeople with wheelchairs, they
use them, we all appreciatethose, whether you are a mom, or
a dad with you know, a stroller.If you think about videos,
there's really high percentagesof people that don't listen to
audio anymore, and they justread it. So you're already using
these things that were createdand designed for disability. So

(23:41):
just, if we can shift ourthinking, I think when you go,
Oh, I get it like when you whenyou get the AHA. It's far
easier, though, when you'vedealt with it personally. So we
ask people a lot to think aboutputting themselves in other
people's shoes. And it helps itdoes it. I don't think living
nation threatening with lawsuitsis the way I don't think we're

(24:04):
gonna shift humans. Bythreatened I think we're gonna
teach them, we'll ship them byteaching them and making them
see and feel and hear andunderstand what it's like to not
be able to pay your billsyourself or, you know, get a
building permit or, you know, doa simple grocery shop. That's,
that's my thinking.

Dean Askin (24:24):
Jolene, you kind of made an inference to exactly
what I wanted to, to know. Onnext question I was going to
ask, you know, it sounds likethere's a lot of people who've
got to have that aha moment. Sowhat is that a ha moment that
businesses need to have aboutaccessibility and their branding
and marketing advertising? Is itto do with like, you know,

(24:46):
accessibility benefits everyone?Or is it the you know, the
advertising market and thedisability market or is it
everything, all of those things?

I think it's a lot of the things I mean, when
you when you talk statistics, Ithink I would always preface any
sales pitch was statisticsbecause you, okay? You're
leaving out sales opportunities,let's face it, like when you
talk about the 27% of Canadathat identify as having a
population, that's only becausethey're meeting the criteria for
Disability Tax Benefit, there isway more people in the

(25:17):
population that refused to saythat they have a disability
because of stigma. So all of asudden, you've said, Okay, I'm,
I don't want 27 or 30%, moresales, forget it. Like, you
know, you look at people whoalone who use screen readers who
are blind, it's like a billionor something. It's, it's very
large. So I think that's thebiggest thing is trying to just

(25:42):
put those little nuggets of infoout there to get the aha
moments. And then I often use myown personal experience to say,
like, look at my daughter, sheis maybe going to be four feet
tall photo her whole life.Imagine what that experience
will be imagine that, you know,she wants to go apply for a job,

(26:02):
maybe she becomes a doctor, youknow, we need to get rid of
those stigmas. We need to stopthinking about disability as
something that is pitiful orsorrowful, or that you're only
hospitalized, and thinking thataccommodations are our special
accommodations, every one of uswhether we identify as having
disability or not need differentaccommodations. So I think when

(26:27):
we start talking about thosethings, in our sales tools, in
short, start showing thoseexamples. That's when we see
people shift. I don't thinkthere's another way to do it.
And all the other negative waysdon't seem to work in my
opinion.

Dean Askin (26:42):
Kelly, what do you think? What do you from your
experience? What's the ahamoment that businesses got to
have out there?

Well, I think they need to realize that like,
accessibility isn't a specialuse case, it's a baseline
customer expectation. And I'veactually asked a group of
marketers who work in this sortof business to business type
industry, why accessibilitydoesn't get prioritized. And the
response that I got is becausecustomers aren't complaining

(27:11):
about it. So, you know, don'twait for customers to complain,
because they don't, they'll justmove on to another organization
that can offer an accessibleexperience. And I think you
know, that reality of when yougive someone agency over their
choices, when you allow them todo something independently in

(27:34):
their own way, and the ownamount of time that it takes
them, you change, you have thepower to change their lives. And
it doesn't matter who you are.Right. Like Jolene, I know, you
and I have talked aboutsituations where some of your
auditors have had to ask afriend or family member to help
them fill out a form becausethey it's not accessible. And

(27:55):
they can't do it with a screenreader type thing, right? So and
I also think that companies,maybe you can tap into the
intelligence of their ownemployees with disabilities and
ask them what it's like to workfor their organization, what
it's like to, you know, buy fromtheir organization and start
listening. I think that's numberone, honestly, is start

(28:16):
listening. And it's easy, it'stempting to just jump to
solution mode and be like, Oh,we're going to do all these
things, then. But you have tostart with listening, and then
move forward from there. Becauseit is a, it can be a big, like
accessibility is big and broad.And it's important that we break
that conversation down and thenunderstand where the, the most

(28:40):
urgent and highest priorityplaces are a bit that need that
time and care and attention.And,

you know, that's, that really leads well
into into this next thing thatI'd love for us to discuss. So
one of one of the other pointsthat came out, in part one of
this series was that there'smore openness to now to having
those difficult conversations onaccessibility. So this is what
our guests were seeing, in partone of this series, the way that

(29:12):
I'm hearing things now, it's alittle bit different from your
take. And so I find this quiteinteresting. So what's your
experience when you're workingwith business about the
accessibility of their, theirbranding? Or their advertising,
their marketing? Are theygetting defensive? Are they you
know, you both talked about sortof people are afraid of making

(29:32):
mistakes? Is there or do youfind that there's more open
openness and willing willingnessnow, I think is the word I'm
looking for?

Yeah, I think it's important to approach that
conversation with a spirit ofbeing helpful and progress over
perfection. And I know, likeeven for agencies where I've
kind of looked at their contentor people, you know, thought
leaders that I know and I seethem, do something on LinkedIn.
where they're using fancy fonts,right? Because everybody, you

(30:03):
know, wants their content tostand out. And they don't know
that someone using a screenreader cannot understand that
content, it doesn't get readback them the same way. And so I
always feel very sensitive aboutapproaching people, especially
individually, because I'm nottrying to, you know, point
fingers or play the blame gameor anything like that. But I

(30:23):
truly know that there's anopportunity to be helpful. And
when I think you can bring thatspirit into it. That's what sort
of opens the door for thosethose, those more difficult
conversations. And then you canmove forward from there. And
just, I think, just admit,right, this isn't an easy
conversation, and we are afraidof getting it wrong. And do we

(30:46):
say person with a disability? Ordo we say disabled person and,
you know, just sort of chewthrough those things and create
the safety to make thoseconversations possible?

What about What about you, Jolene?

I think it's very much along the same line. I
don't know what it's been allthrough society for so many
years. But I mean, even thinkback to the 70s. When kids were
born with disabilities, theywere told to put them into
institutions like, so we haven'tcome that far from what our

(31:22):
perception is, on whatdisability is. And I think
there's just so much fear,again, for people who have no
experience in it. I was to Imean, it's not until it's like
you don't know until you know.And so I think there's a lot of
that, and what I try and comeinto a sales conversation, or

(31:43):
you know, any kind of discussionis like, I'm not going to get
offended, we need to have theseopen conversations about
disability. And then I'll, youknow, I'll have people say,
Well, I don't like to saydisability, I'm like, I'm in
that community, it's okay, wehave to take back this word.
It's just, there's just so muchstigma with people that have no

(32:08):
disability experience of fearand worry that it's, it's a
paralysis, and it's happening inbusiness, and that business
paralysis and accessibility is athing. I wish there was almost a
better word that we could callit. But I would say that's sort
of where things are at. We'relucky, I think, because people

(32:29):
are coming to us. Pretty muchwith open arms, we're not going
out trying to, to changeanyone's minds anymore. They're
coming to us, because they knowthey need to do it. So we just
make it an easier process.

Dean Askin (32:41):
You know, Jolene, a lot of what you just said, is
sort of an expansion of, ofsomething, something else that
Stephanie Cadieux said in partone of the series, and she said,
You know, it's attitudes thatstill need to change. And she
said, people still need tounderstand that disability is
just a different way ofexperiencing life. And you know,

(33:03):
so when you're, you know, whenyou're talking to people in
business leaders and marketersand other communicators, and,
you know, you're giving themsome some idea of like, where
they can improve and what mightnot be so right. What about the
other side of it? You know, youkind of mentioned this near the
top of the show, but I want tocircle back on it. I mean, what

(33:26):
are businesses doing right?Today about accessibility, that
they weren't maybe just evenfive or 10 years ago? What do
you think? Kelly?

Ah, that's a good question. I mean, I think
what they're doing right isstarting to connect the dots
between some of those Equity,Diversity and Inclusion, like
the spirit of that, and bringingthat into a conversation about
inclusion and belonging, beinglike it's at the more values

(33:58):
lead, things like that. And it'sunfortunate that it's not
enough, right? There's notenough people talking about
accessibility, there's notenough people sort of being
willing to start that ballrolling and initiating the
conversation. But I do thinkthat the spirit of the
conversation is definitelytaking a turn. And I I mean, I

(34:22):
can't help but be optimistic andencouraged because I think
that's an important part tobring into any kind of work that
falls into advocacy andinclusion and, and, and making a
difference, like this. This isreally a significant
conversation. It's aboutcreating change in the world

(34:42):
that lasts, and that reallyimpacts people. And so you know,
in marketing, we always talkabout like, the next shiny
object or the next campaign orthe next, you know, whatever the
next thing is, and I think like,you know, before you go down
that path, you can reach so Somany more people in a really

(35:03):
impactful way that is so muchmore meaningful than that next
shiny thing.

Dean Askin (35:10):
It's interesting that you mention that because I
know, you know, we want to getto that optimism factor in a in
a minute or two. But Jolene, Imean, what do you think? What do
you see people doing right thatmaybe they weren't a few years
ago.

I mean, the types of companies that have
come to us, they're prioritizingit. So like, there's the bigger
ones, obviously, we're startingfrom the bigger ones and going
down the smaller ones, you know,it's taking time, they're not
paying attention to legislation,it's not that it's not on their
radar, so to speak. They'rewilling and open to learning

(35:47):
more, it started out as oh, weneed to make our documents
accessible. Well, it's more thanjust holding it to make it work
for a screen reader. It's aboutthe content, it's making it you
know, easier to understand whichwe talked about plain language.
It's about changing, you know,you're not doing red text on a
black background, just makingthat that document accessible,

(36:09):
which we're still seeing a lotof, it's about ensuring that
you're not throwing in alt textjust for the reason of having
it. It's about picture yourselfas being visually impaired. And
what do you want to know? Andwhat do you not want to know? So
I think we're seeing the turn, Isee it very positive, I don't
see a lot of negative, I mean,there's still, we have some

(36:33):
that, you know, it should be xamount of budget, but they only
have this, but I would rathernot turn someone away, because
they have an interest in it. Andthey want to learn and get
better than say, sorry, youdon't have enough money, we're
not going to bother. So I thinkKelly and I are both focused on
that, as you know, we're, we'retrying to slowly, like urge

(36:55):
people in Twitter or like, slidethem into understanding that and
become part of the education. Ithink the other part that we're
seeing is that the universitiesand colleges are very much aware
of it. But it's not mandated bythe Ministry of Education to
teach it in the courses. Sopeople like myself, and Kelly,
who are coming out of collegeand university. Now, it's not

(37:17):
part of their curriculum. And weneed to have that we need more
people bull advocating, becausethat's how it's going to work.
That's how it's going to change.So I see a lot of positive
things from that, because theyounger generation are coming
into the bigger corpse and go,Hey, do you know about this? So
they're pushing them? It'ssmall, but it's it's becoming a

(37:38):
bigger trend? We'll call it Ihope it's not going to be a
trend because it'll go away. Butit we're certainly seeing that
upswing.

Dean Askin (37:48):
So do you think is it teaching people about
accessibility earlier in theeducation system? Is that one of
the things that needs to changethe most? What do you think
needs to change the most?

100% it needs to be part of curriculum for web
developers UX UI, contentmarketing, graphic designers
speaking strictly from a mediaperspective. They're doing it in
the entertainment sector.There's lots of big orgs Netflix
has partnered with a companyparticularly that's disabled on
that are trying to have moreadvocacy for actors with visible

(38:22):
disabilities, and photography,these things are all happening.
So yeah, I think it's there. Andthat bird needs to start

Dean Askin (38:30):
Kelly what about you? What do you think needs to
change the most?

Um, yeah, I mean, I feel the same things
that Jolene said. Also justthinking about, you know, the,
those grassroots organizationsthat are creating change, and
impact in impactful andsignificant ways. I also think
that accessibility needs to belike an accountability across

(38:55):
the organization. It's not justmarketing's job, right? Like,
again, we go back to education,people who are in product
development roles and salesroles, like all the way through,
right, and it's really importantthat there's top line
accountability, it makes thegoals that someone's working
towards, and that, frankly,they're getting bonused on

(39:16):
because it's just not going tohave that same grip, if that
piece is missing. So it's it'snot just the accessibility
team's job. It's not just themarketing communications job.
It's actually across the wholeorganization, and people
understand. And the other thingthat I was thinking about is the
storytelling opportunity aroundfor companies who are doing

(39:40):
really great work. They're nottalking about it, they're not
sharing it. So you know, haveuse cases or case studies that
talk about people withdisabilities being able to use
their product or service, startsharing that. It still is a bit
of a hidden secret because Ithink we're so busy trying to
have people We'll understand,you know, how do they where do

(40:03):
they start? That they haven'teven thought about? How do we
amplify and educate, share whatwe're doing?

You know, there's a there's a goal that
we're all most people are awareof have Canada being barrier
free by January 1, 2040. Sothinking of everything that
we've been discussing today, youknow, how, how optimistic are
the both of you that you'll, youknow, that that day will come
that people aren't puttingemojis that can't be read by

(40:33):
screen readers in all theirsocial media posts, or that
creating, you know, brandmarketing and advertising
materials will be fullyaccessible to everyone. And
like, this will just becomebusiness as usual for everyone.
How, how optimistic are youaround that 2040 goal?

Ah, you know, I, I hope we're making
significant progress to gettowards that goal, for sure. And
I think there's accountabilityon the people who are reading
the communication andadvertising and also on the
platforms, frankly, right, likemeta launched threads without
any accessibility features, andthey're all different, they all

(41:15):
work differently. There's notone place you can go, it's not
built into how you postsomething on social media,
social media scheduling toolsaren't consistent, don't have it
everywhere. So like, I don'twant to, you know, forget to
acknowledge that the ecosystemsthat we work within the tools,
the platforms and software, alsohave accountability to change so

(41:38):
that it's easy, or it's not thisbackdoor hidden feature that,
you know, you kind of have topuzzle through and either
decide, you know, what can youreally work with, or what can
you not, so even theaccessibility checker is in
Word, right, like, they don'tcatch everything they end up
with you turn that feature on atthe end, that's the place where
you're going to be like, I'm nottrying to fix all that stuff. So

(42:02):
I, you know, I want to beoptimistic and positive, of
course, but I think that we havea lot of accountability on both
sides.

I would concur with I think a lot of it the
authoring tools themselves thatwere stuck at what's working
well, and what's not to makethings digitally accessible, per
se. I'm really optimistic aboutand I like to think I'm always
optimistic about this, but howpeople perceive disability I
think has changed a lot. We havesome really great leaders like

(42:35):
Stephanie Cadieux, like otherpeople that we have met
throughout this that are now inpositions of higher decision
making that have disabilities.And they're being very vocal
about it and not trying to hideit and act like Oh, nobody
should find out that I have thisdisability, the more positive
role models that we see, themore people I think just make it

(42:55):
part of their thinking. I don'tthink it's going to happen
overnight. But I certainly see avery positive shift. You see it
even in reality TV shows, arethey all correct, and you know,
representing those disbelief,you know, but it's become
something that's part ofeveryday culture, it's like
LGBTQ two, plus, you know,communities bipoc Like, we're,

(43:17):
we're making this part of theconversations. And I think the
more we do that, the more itwill become part of everything
that we do on a regular basis.So I remain optimistic about
that. But I live in every day.And I see my daughter growing up
and encouraging her to use hervoice is really important. And I

(43:38):
hope other people who are in thedisability communities do that,
and those that are advocates forother actors with disabilities,
like Kelly was for her mom. Youknow, that's, that's what we
need to do. We need to becollectively loud, and show the
importance of it.

Dean Askin (43:54):
You know, you've both brought out so many thought
provoking points. And I'mopening up there's creative
types and marketers out therelistening to this right now that
they're going, Wow, I neverthought of that. That's a great
point. I gotta bring that up.And we got to start doing that.
I mean, we've talked about a lotin this conversation. I mean, is
there anything we haven't talkedabout that you think is

(44:16):
important? I mentioned before wewrap up this second part of this
series?

I think, for me just reiterate what Kelly
said, Sorry, Kelly, we probablyhad the same thought. It's not
ever going to be perfect. Youwill never be perfect. Your work
will never be perfect. You willnever be able to reach and fix
your work to match every type ofdisability. It's never going to
happen. So you do your verybest, and it's the understanding

(44:44):
of how to do that. I think thatis most critical that I want
people to take away from andjust start somewhere.

Yeah, and I'll just add to that too, by saying
like, there's no green checkmarkat the end, like you're done.
Right. It's again, it's comingback to I've heard this had
before and I love it is likewhen you're focused on the
rules, all you see is rules whenyou're focused on people, right?
You see people, and that's whatthis is about at the end of the
day. And yes, there are someguidelines in place, right?

(45:14):
Because we need that structure.But the thinking and the
philosophy comes back to how canI how can I make this a better
experience for for people.

We will all become disabled in our life.
It's just a given. So while youmay think that you can avoid it
now, and you will never bedisabled, you will be it doesn't
matter, you maybe you broke yourarm, it's temporary, you know,
maybe you had a brain injury orconcussion. It's all there. It's

(45:46):
all right, we're all gonna getold and need accommodations.
It's just a given. So I thinkit's a reality check for people
and some people don't like thinklike that, but it's the truth.
We're just helping our futureselves.

That's a, that's a great, that's a great
way to put that is really thisconversation is about making
everything. Everybody benefits,everybody, including our future
selves. I think that that's,that's really great. And, you
know, this has been such a greatconversation about
accessibility. And, and it's,you know, when, to your point,

(46:22):
Jolene, that's so important tohave, because disability is on
the rise in this country, whichmeans accessibility is simply
becoming more and moreimportant. And it is the one
club, everybody's got a chanceto join, everybody probably will
join. You know, and, and, like Ijust said earlier, when things

(46:44):
in this case, like like content,and the way that we receive
information is accessible foreveryone, everybody is going to
benefit from it. You know, so Ireally would just like to say
thank you so much, Kelly andJolene, for coming on the show
for sharing your insights andyour experiences, and these

(47:06):
incredible gems of advice andencouragement that you've been
giving people, you know, andreally encouraging people to
take a closer look ataccessibility and marketing and
advertising, which is what wereally hope that this podcast
would would get thatconversation going. So, you
know, interestingly, I shouldmention that, you know, you did

(47:28):
a bit of work with Odin lastyear Kelty. So the Ontario
Disability Employment NetworkODEN, we jointly created a tip
sheet for creating accessiblesocial media content, that's
part of our seven-tips series.And that's a series of tip
sheets for businesses. It'savailable on our website, but

(47:49):
we're gonna put a link into theshow notes for this episode
about that. So people can take alook. And I've gone in and used
it, it's really great. And youdid a session last November at
on accessible social content atour 2023 annual rethinking
disability conference. And Iknow that was really well

(48:11):
attended, and people reallybenefited. So I kind of want to
encourage people that are thatare, you know, following this
podcast? We're not just talkingabout private sector business.
We're talking about humanservices. We're talking about
nonprofit, we're talking abouteducation institutions, we're
talking about businesses. And soreally appreciated you coming in

(48:36):
doing that, Kelly.

Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I mean,
it's a joy and a pleasure to bepart of this conversation. And I
have loved every opportunity towork with the team at Odin. So
thank you.

And Jolene, really, thank you so much for
for joining us as well.

Lovely, thank you big fan of ODEN. I was also
at that conference last year,too. And that's how Kelly and I
got to meet in person for thefirst time. So we worked
together on many projects. It'sbeen awesome.

Oh, that's great.

Dean Askin (49:07):
Well, I gotta jump in here and do the full
disclosure thing too. Because,you know, our communications
team at Odin, myself includeddid one of Kelly's workshops
last year and I have to say itwas definitely worthwhile and
educational even for a seniorcommunicator like me, because
there's always something tolearn. Now I'm now much more

(49:28):
aware about adding imagedescriptions to social media
posts and alt text to images Isometimes I forget, but I try to
remember and now I know thatthere's a subtle difference
between an image description andan old text and you know, I'm
thinking that now I'm reallykind of like Kelly I mean when
I'm you know, reading LinkedInor whatever, social media

(49:50):
channel I cringe whenever Ithink I did it, just you know,
just today I cringe whenever Isee a social post with emojis in
it or an infographic It's gotsome, you know, really
interesting information in it,but it doesn't also have a text
version. In the post, I've, youknow, as another thing I learned
out of that workshop is I'velearned the right way to create

(50:12):
infographics. So they'reaccessible. So thank you to you
both, for coming on the showfrom me as well and sharing your
expert insights about theaccessibility of content. And

you know, having me,

yeah, thank you so much for making time for
this conversation today. Andhopefully, this conversation
will get all those creatives andmarketers who are responsible
for creating the branding andthe marketing, advertising
social media content for theirbusinesses, or organizations,
thinking more consciously aboutaccessibility. But you know,

(50:47):
Kelly, to your point, it doeshave to be every part of the
organization or business that'sin there. So if you're in
product management, you know,human resources, sales, customer
service, these, everybody reallyneeds to start thinking much
more consciously aboutaccessibility and all the

(51:07):
reasons why he can't and itshould never be an afterthought.
And so in our show notes, we'llalso have the contact
information needed. If peoplewant to reach out to Kelly or
Jolene to find out more abouthow to make your content
accessible.

Well, thank you.

Dean Askin (51:29):
Just before we go, you know, I want to mention the
final sentence in that 2024Global Advertising Accessibility
Index and Trends Report wementioned off the top of the
show, because I think, you know,it's a sense that really drives
home the importance ofaccessibility, and is kind of a
great note to end on. I mean,here's what the authors wrote.

(51:51):
Accessible accessibilitypractices go beyond helping
advertisers achieve the holygrail of reach, relevance,
resonance, and results. It alsolends itself to building a world
that acknowledges and valuesevery individual's experience.

That's that's a great insight to end
on, Dean. Thank you. So withthat, that's it for this episode
of You Can't Spell InclusionWithout a D. I'm Jeannette
Campbell. Thank you forlistening. And I hope that
you'll join Dean and our guestco host, Jennifer Crowson for
our next episode coming on July9, in Episode 24, they're going

(52:28):
to be exploring inclusionthrough images and storytelling.

Dean Askin (52:32):
Yes, Jennifer is back again and the other chair
while you're away, we'll betalking with a portrait and
commercial photographer who'smaking sure all her images of
disability are truly inclusiveand authentic and tell the story
about the person and thechallenges around making sure of
all that, you know, there's alot of stock photography out

(52:54):
there that doesn't reallyauthentically portray
disability. As you said,Jeanette, Episode 24 is coming
July 9. I'm Dean askin Thanksagain for listening, wherever,
whenever and on whatever podcastapp you're listening from. Join
us each episode has a healingcycle conversations like this
one with Kelly Thibodeau andJolene MacDonald, and explore

(53:16):
disability inclusion in businessand in our communities. From all
the angles you can't spellinclusion without a D is
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network. All rightsreserved. Our podcast production
team, executive producer andhost Jeanette Campbell, producer
Sudha fo associate producer andhost Dean askin audio editing

(53:38):
and production by Dean askin.Our podcast theme is last summer
by Ikksen. If you have feedbackor comments about an episode,
contact us at info atodenetwork.com. That's
info@odnetwork.com. Join us eachepisode for insights from expert
guests as we explore the powerof inclusion, the business
benefits of inclusive hiring andwhy disability is an important

(54:01):
part of the Diversity Equity andInclusion conversation. Listen
to you can't spell inclusionwithout a D on pod bean or
wherever you find your favouritepodcasts.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Cold Case Files: Miami

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 23: The State of Accessibility in Canada (Part 2)