July 9, 2024 • 52 mins
If you’ve ever looked for a stock photo portraying disability to use in a blog post or on a website page, you might find yourself thinking they all look the same; they all look contrived; and they don’t authentically portray disability in all its diversity.
How disability is broadly viewed and perceived, can depend on how it’s seen through a photographer’s mind, eye, viewfinder and lens.
The first-ever environmental portraiture of people who have a disability was done by famous American photographer Diane Arbus, between 1969 and 1971. Whether the Diane Arbus Untitled series was artistically inclusive, or helped perpetuate myths and stereotypes about disability, is of course, open to interpretation.
Canadian commercial and portrait photographer Hilary Gauld, is on a personal mission to make sure her photographic work portraying disability, is inclusive and authentic; that it tells an inclusive story about the person.
Episode 24 is an engaging conversation with photographer Hilary Gauld and creator, storyteller, educator and inclusion coach Jenny Jay about:
- Hilary’s journey of learning to photograph disability authentically and telling an inclusive story
- The impact photographers can have on the disability community; and
- What photographers and other creators need to understand and be aware of, to create authentic disability imagery
SHOW NOTES
- View Hilary Gauld’s disability portraiture projects on her website
- Contact Hilary: oneforthewall@rogers.com
- Learn more about Jenny Jay
- Episode 24 transcript (PDF)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dean Askin (00:03):
You Can't Spell Inclusion without a D. The
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeannette Campbell and
Dean Askin.
(00:26):
One of the most famousphotographs in modern history
was the one taken by AssociatedPress photographer Nick Ute in
1972. At the height of theVietnam War, it's known as
"napalm girl", that famous photoof a young girl named Kim Fuk
and other children runningterrified and naked towards the
camera away from a napalmattack. It told a powerful
(00:49):
story. It made such an impactthat it changed public opinion
about the Vietnam War. Hi there.I'm Dean Askin, and this is
episode 24 of You Can't SpellInclusion Without a D. Wondering
where we're going with thisepisode? Well keep listening.
Jennifer Crowson (01:05):
In the same era between 1969 and 1971,
during the last two years of herlife, famous American
photographer Diane Arbusphotographed people who have
intellectual disabilities in theenvironment they lived in. She
focused on state-run homes andinstitutions in New Jersey.
Hello, I'm Jennifer Crossansitting in again for Jeannette
(01:26):
Campbell. The famous series ofphotos is called the Diane Arbus
Untitled it was the firstenvironmental portraiture of its
kind of disability.
Dean Askin (01:36):
The series was exhibited in its entirety for
the first time in 2018 at theDavid Zwerner gallery in
Manhattan. New York Times artcritic Arthur Lubow described
the work as some of the mostmysterious and haunting pictures
made by Diane Arbus during hertoo-short 15 year career.
Jennifer Crowson (01:56):
Whether the Untitled series was artistically
inclusive, or helped perpetuatemyths and stereotypes about
disability is of course open tointerpretation. How disability
is broadly viewed and perceivedcan depend on how it's seen
through the photographer's mind,eye, viewfinder and lens.
Dean Askin (02:15):
If you've ever looked for a stock photo
portraying disability to use ina blog post or on a website
page, you might find yourselfthinking they all look the same.
They all look contrived and theydon't authentically portray
disability in all its diversity.Hilary Gauld is on a personal
mission to make sure herphotographic work portraying
disability is inclusive andauthentic, that it tells an
(02:38):
inclusive story about theperson. She's a commercial and
portrait photographer inKitchener-Waterloo, Ontario.
Jennifer Crowson (02:45):
She's photographed multiple series of
images for the Canadian DownSyndrome Society campaigns and
full disclosure, I'm the currentChair of the Canadian Down
Syndrome Society, and I'm veryfamiliar with Hilary's work, and
also very fond of it. Hilarysays working with an inclusion
coach is helping her to stay onmission with her photography.
That inclusion coach is JennyJay. She builds herself as a
(03:08):
creator, storyteller andeducator. Hilary Gauld and Jenny
Jay, welcome to You Can't SpellInclusion Without a D.
Hilary Gauld (03:16):
Thank you.
Jenny Jay (03:17):
Thank you so much for having us.
Jennifer Crowson (03:20):
Oh, it's a pleasure. Okay, I'm gonna kick
off with the first question.It's really directed, I guess,
to you, Hillary, you know,you've been a family portrait
photographer for 16 years, andyou've done some commercial
work, too. What motivated you tostart doing personal projects,
photographing people who have adisability?
Hilary Gauld (03:39):
I actually get asked this question quite often,
because of the, you know, howmuch the work has grown, the
body of work has grown. And Iwish I could tell you some, you
know, elaborate story of howthis all really came about, but
it was just simply that one ofmy friends had a son born with
Down syndrome 10 years ago. Andshe, Caleb actually almost
(04:04):
didn't live at birth. And Ifollowed that journey. We had
been friends for a really longtime. And then she brought Caleb
into my studio one day when hewas about six months old, and
said, they were looking for aphotographer for their yearly
calendar that they hadphotographed. And it was used
for fundraising purposes. Andthe money going back to the
(04:29):
community group there to findprogramming and support. So I
said, Yeah, we'd love to dothis, because I just felt tied
to her story. And I think herjourney and watching this little
boy be born and it was notsomething that they were aware
of before Caleb was born that hehad Down syndrome. And, you
(04:49):
know, I just think it's one ofthose things that, you know, we
all have our lived experience,which I'm learning so much more
about every day and obviouslythrough my work with Jenny about
what that actually means. means,and that, you know, my lived
experiences certainly didn'tencompass anyone with Down
Syndrome and my close circles.And so when I took on this
(05:12):
assignment at the time, I thinkI was just so surprised at so
many different things, which I'msure we'll get into when I first
met these families in thiscommunity. And just
understanding that, you know, mylived experience, then, you
know, it's cliche, but I guess Ihad a narrow lens, and obviously
worked with a lot ofneurotypical children and
(05:34):
families and that kind of thingearly in my career. So, yeah, I
think that, that, you know, thisis that's what led me to do all
of this, Caleb was that soleinspiration. But obviously, from
there, it's grown into somethingso much more
Jennifer Crowson (05:49):
Amazing and, and how did you then become
involved in with the CanadianDown Syndrome Society and
shooting all of those incredibleseries of images that you've
done for them?
Hilary Gauld (05:59):
So through the work at the Waterloo, Wellington
Down Syndrome Society, and youknow, the series that we would
do each year, some, you know,the photos started to filter
around the internet, and amongstother Down syndrome, community
groups in Ontario. And so thecommittee and the president of
(06:21):
the Canadian Down SyndromeSociety took notice of the
imagery we were creating in thatspace. And so, you know, I kind
of gotten had heard that, oh,they wanted some of our images.
And they were really interestedin what we were capturing, and
that kind of thing. And so myfirst real interaction with my
guests was just Yes, go ahead,please use the photos, we would
love to see them in widerdistribution. So I was thrilled,
(06:44):
obviously, that they werenoticed by the larger umbrella
organization of Down SyndromeCommunity. And then about, I'd
say, three or four years ago,outside of just them using those
images, I had always had acouple things in mind that I
would have liked to photograph.But obviously, that didn't
(07:05):
necessarily fit the group I wasworking with locally, because
the group we work with locallyis babies straight through to
children, teens, and to adults.And some of the things that I
noticed amongst this community,I was like, I'd love to tell
these stories, but they didn'tfit within kind of that, you
know, the calendar, you know,scenario we had. So I talked to
(07:28):
those back in my head, and thenI just, I kind of just reached
out one day and said, You know,I have this idea that I'd love
to photograph adults with Downsyndrome in love, and what love
looks like to them. And, youknow, in whatever shape that may
be, whether it's platonic love,friendship, love, romantic love.
(07:48):
I'd like to see what that lookslike. Because again, that at
that time was not something wewe saw represented in a great
way online, and in mainstreammedia. So that was kind of my
first attempt to work with themin a larger way. So I went to
them, I presented the concept.And I just said, regardless of
whether we partner or not, Iwill I want to produce this. And
(08:10):
they came back and said, we'dlove to partner and help produce
this series. So that was myfirst big national kind of
portrait campaign that myselfand obviously, Jenny was really
involved in a lot of thatmessaging and crafting our plans
with that. So that's kind of howthat got started. And then the
the following year, we did hereI am. So Laura said, you know,
(08:32):
she's the director, she said,I'd really like to see adults
with Down syndrome, aging. Andso of course, I was on board for
another series. And anotheramazing success story with that
one as well, educating people onwhat that looked like to age
with Dravet Syndrome and tobreak down further stereotypes
around, you know, people withDown syndrome, living a lot
(08:53):
longer than what probably mostpeople understand their lifespan
is. So that's kind of the earlyintroduction to them. And then,
you know, every year that I dothe photos for the Waterloo,
Wellington Down SyndromeSociety, I was offered those to
the Canadian Down SyndromeSociety to use those. And then
they've hired me for a few otherthings, if they have specific
needs to photograph, you know,children or parents or
(09:16):
caregivers so that we can bettertell that story on their
platform.
Dean Askin (09:20):
You know, I want to jump in here because, you know,
photography is one of the thingsthat I do as well. I mean, I
don't make my living at it, butI you know, I do it creatively
and it's been part of my careerand I have exhibited art shows
and one of the things I I loveto photograph is environmental,
you know, portraits of peopleand I'm curious, tell me what it
(09:42):
was like about the first timeyou photographed a person who
has a disability mean? What wasthat like? You know, what was
going through your mind as aphotographer, when you were
setting up the shot and lookingthrough the viewfinder and
trying to figure it out?
Hilary Gauld (09:56):
I think as this year has been a really
reflective year for all of us,because we are celebrating the
10th anniversary of doing thisseries. And so it has really
taken me back to it really sitand think about, you know, what
was I feeling in that moment?And what was that? How did this
really all begin in my mind? AndI think probably, again, my
(10:17):
lived experience did not haveanyone with Down syndrome close
to me. So I think I was, I was Iremember being quite taken
aback. And I think it was justsimply, you know, the connection
of the kids with their families,I think it was just
understanding their abilities.And I think, you know, that is
probably one of the biggestlearnings is that not to
(10:40):
underestimate anybody, and toassume what they can and cannot
do. And so I think that's whatI've learned most because I, you
know, can get stuck in my ownhead. Are they able to do this?
Will they, you know, this thefirst year we were outside in a
park. And then the second year,I wanted to move them into the
studio. Simply because I thinkbecause I didn't see imagery
(11:01):
that was really kind of capturedin that way. And so I remember
thinking, will this be okay,will this work, and now I just
don't, I would know that theywere going for anything, no
matter where we'd want tophotograph that everyone would
be fine with it. So I was ableto push my own ideas. And I
(11:21):
think, you know, it challengesyour own misconceptions. But I
think in general, it justbroadens your understanding of,
of this community and whatdisability looks like, and the
invisible challenges and thevisible challenges and all of
this. So yeah, I definitely goback to that. And I think more
than anything, I was justquietly learning, and taking it
(11:43):
all in and understanding that,you know, each child or teen had
a different way of communicatingwith me. And yeah, so you just
really had to listen, and youhad to respond in the way that,
you know, relates to them andthat kind of thing. So yeah, it
was it. It was huge learning.I've taken that all the way
through. But I would say ifsomeone asked me, What's your
(12:03):
number one, it would definitelybe around just ability and not
assuming what they can or can'tdo in front of a camera.
Dean Askin (12:11):
All those things, you were talking about it? You
know, it's it's all aboutawareness, isn't it? I mean, how
would you describe your level ofdisability awareness as a
photographer, before you starteddoing this compared to now?
Hilary Gauld (12:25):
So I think when I think about this, I really do
picture in my head a lens. And Ithink it was a narrow focus,
when I really think about theworld that I grew up in. And the
world of people that Iinteracted with, and friends and
family, I think I just realizedhow narrow my lens was. And so I
(12:46):
love how wide my lens is now,and how I, you know, am able to
respond to people and anticipateneeds and how to speak to people
with disability and how torespect their boundaries and
what they're comfortable with.So I would say that, you know,
my narrow lens has widened agreat deal in the last 10 years.
(13:07):
And it will continue to do thatas I expand into other
disability spaces withphotography, which is, you know,
a big goal of mine to continueto produce imagery in an
authentic way. Has we still havea ways to go? But yeah, I would
just think that it was fairlynarrow, I think, and then think
of today that banded to othergroups, other thoughts? And I
(13:31):
think my mind is just so muchmore open.
Jennifer Crowson (13:35):
Thanks, Hillary, I have to say, I have a
big smile on my face, you know,because I just I love the words
that you're saying and howyou're describing it. And, you
know, when you and I weretalking, before we did this
show, I was really taken withhow you were telling me about
how you've worked really hardactually to make sure that the
images you create areintentional, authentic, and
(13:56):
inclusive. Can you talk to us alittle bit about how you did
that? What's involved? And andwhat were maybe some challenges
that you faced in doing that?And? Yeah,
Hilary Gauld (14:07):
Well, I do remember when I first started
this, that I did do a Googlesearch and looked for imagery
because I was interested,because who I'd met in person
did not match with what I sawonline for the imagery, just in
general, there was a lack ofimagery to begin with. And
secondly, the imagery tended tobe not high quality imagery, and
(14:31):
what I felt really fed somestereotypes within the
community. And so I feel likeyou know, that's where we've
worked hard to fill those gaps.Sorry, totally forgot your
question.
Jennifer Crowson (14:46):
It's really we're interested, we're
interested in, you know, interms of this idea of making
your imagery more intentional,authentic, inclusive, you know,
how challenging was that? andwhat's involved? And I think the
way you started it actuallyaround the kind of Google
searches a great one, right?Because hopefully people will
(15:06):
start Google searching and comeacross your images, right?
Hilary Gauld (15:11):
Yeah, so I noticed a gap in that imagery. And I
remember thinking there's adisconnect between who I just
photographed. And what I sawonline. And there was one series
at the time I saw that reallycaptured my eye. And that was
kind of the only one thatexisted. So I felt that there
was a, you know, an opportunityto grow the imagery within that
(15:32):
community. And I also justreally wanted to see people with
Down syndrome, somewhat in thesame light as everybody else.
Because it feels like sometimesthe most beautiful best light is
reserved for the most ablebodied, beautiful people in the
world. And I just feel like Iwanted to put literally put that
light on these people. And Ifeel like that it just when you
(15:56):
take away all that other stuffthat allows you to really see
the person. And so I just, Iknew that it was going to kind
of shake up that imagery scene,when I did that, like just doing
really strong portraits, andshowing an array of emotion, I
think that's another big thingand array of clothing choices,
(16:16):
and an array of posing and justallowing them to be themselves
in the in the images. So like Isaid, I feel like the original
images I saw online really fedcertain stereotypes. And I'd say
one of the big ones is thatpeople with Down syndrome are
always happy. And I just feelsometimes I've come to learn, or
this is just how I feel is thatit just makes people feel more
(16:38):
comfortable, if they see themalways happy. Right? So it's
like if they always want thatbig smile, or that goofing
around, or being silly, which isa part of, you know, all of us.
But it's like there are serioussides, there are quiet sides,
not everyone with Down syndromeis always laughing are always
smiling. Sometimes people withDown syndrome are quiet, and
(16:59):
they you know, look away alittle bit from the camera, or
they look down or whatever. Andsome of them do like to, you
know, play around with thecamera and have a lot of fun. So
I just wanted to do a greaterarray of photography. And I
think the one big thing thatalways stands out with me is
that Down Syndrome itself issuch an is carries, to me one of
(17:23):
the heaviest stigmas within thedisability community. So it is
just something that it carries astigma that is hundreds and
hundreds of years old. And therewas a time that people with Down
syndrome. And other conditionstoo, were not integrated into
communities, they were, youknow, housed in different areas
(17:44):
and not a part of our generalcommunity. And so I think that
in itself was so powerful to me,and especially as a
photographer, and again, usingthat figurative language of
bringing someone out of either ashadow or bringing someone out
of that sort of heavy stigma,and making space in the wider
community as kit children withDown syndrome are integrated
(18:05):
more into schools and, and thehonestly, there's so much work
to do with integrating them intoworkplace and community groups
and things like that. So yeah,there's all kinds of interesting
analogies and interesting kindof visions in my head as to, you
know, how to kind of show thiscommunity in a way that's far
more authentic than it was 10years ago.
Dean Askin (18:27):
Jenny has been listening to the conversation
intently here, I want to bringJenny into it now. You know,
Jenny, urine inclusion coach,and he'll reuse said before the
show that Jenny's helped youenormously in making sure your
work is intentional, authenticand inclusive. I mean, first
off, and whoever wants to startoff here, I mean, for those who
may not have heard the termbefore, what is an inclusion
(18:51):
coach, and how, as what you twohave done together, helped
Hilary achieve her mission.
Jenny Jay (19:01):
I've been really enjoying listening in on this
conversation. So I wear manyhats, and I am and like ethical
storytelling coach andconsultant. And a lot of that is
with digital marketing andvisual media. Because that's the
(19:23):
background that I come with. Andas someone who is in that space,
I have been so frustrated and amcontinuously frustrated with how
tokenistic sometimes digitalmarketing campaigns can be media
campaigns can be and like thevisuals that are supposed to be
(19:46):
there to tell individual andcommunity stories don't actually
center and include thecommunities that are that are
being spoken about and talkedabout. There's been so much to
change that in the last year. 10to 15 years and their incredible
community storytellers andcreators and folks like Hillary,
who are doing with the utmostcare and intention. But also
(20:10):
with the way social media andour digital landscape has
changed, there are a lot offolks who aren't necessarily
coming in with that same lens.So that's kind of how I got into
the space of consulting, in thiswork, especially because I have
a background in in film andcreative writing in media and
(20:31):
journalism. And a lot of thosespaces have also been primed to
think about telling stories in away that isn't necessarily
inclusive to the communitiesthat they're supposed to be
about, and can be a lot moreextractive in nature. So and,
you know, Hilary and I met, whenI was running, running workshops
online in terms of how to createand share inclusive
(20:55):
communications and an onlinespace. And thinking about things
that shouldn't should be likecommon knowledge, like, even
when you're thinking about like,website and social media
accessibility, thinking aboutyour colors, thinking about when
you are looking at a photo, whois in the center of it, who is
quite literally taking up themost space, in the images that
you use, and the places that youput them on your sites and the
(21:18):
campaigns that you're creating.And so our conversation where it
started from that place, andstarted, like really like
unpacking a lot of Hilary's workas well. And also like being
able to challenge and ask like,Well, why is this project or
these projects really important?Who is included? And who hasn't
been included? who continues tobe left out? And for what
(21:41):
reason? So, yeah, that's all ofthat, my bread and butter.
Dean Askin (21:48):
So in Hilary, how would you how would you say,
sorry, Jennifer,
Jennifer Crowson (21:52):
No, no, no, carry on.
Dean Askin (21:53):
How? Hillary? How would you say? How much? And
tell me a little I want a littlebit more about how much Jenny
has helped you and the evolutionyou've seen?
Hilary Gauld (22:08):
Well, I try to remind Jenny a lot, especially
when we do our coaching, I madesure she knows how grateful I
am. For her and her knowledgeand the commitment she has to
this space. It's changed my workenormously. Do I think I was on
a positive path and anintentional path to begin with?
(22:30):
Yes. But were there ways inwhich I could improve that
story? Absolutely. And so, tome, this journey has been the
greatest gift to this space andwork, not just, you know,
obviously, I can take the photosand the portraits, but how those
stories are actually told, hasreally changed. And again, I'm
(22:51):
gonna go back to that livedexperience and narrow lens, I am
very aware of my livedexperiences, and my narrow lens.
And I think that Jenny'sexperience, and her background
and her her lived experience,continues to widen for me on the
storytelling end of it. And so,yeah, I think it's it's changed
(23:14):
things immensely. And, you know,I did, I think there was a time
mid project or mid kind of inthis decade, that I was starting
to feel like, perhaps some ofthe work I was doing, or just me
as a photographer was startingto be centered. And I really
wanted to work. I said to Jenny,straight out, like, I just want
a way to dissenter myself fromthis story. Because when you're
(23:36):
working with media, and they'relooking at the story, often
times they were looking to me,as you know, this thing I've put
together and and I just reallywanted to understand how do we
shift that in the media so thatthey are centered in the story.
And so Jenny was also there toreally help me with that,
because that piece didn't alwayssit well with me. You cannot
(24:00):
choose always what the mediawill pick out of your story as
the headline or the main story.But at least I went in with more
of an understanding of how toposition, the press release and
our messaging so that I becameless the story. And the people
in the series became the story.And that is a part an important
(24:22):
part of this evolution is justeven guiding the way that you
present your things in themedia. So the right stories are
tools. So I was even starting torecognize that. And again, I
think I just got to a pointwhere I realized also that the
work was becoming bigger thestories were being so well
received. And I was like weactually have some weight in
(24:44):
this space. And so it'simportant for myself, being the
photographer and leading helpingto lead the committee in our
messaging. I have a I have aresponsibility to that. And
that's really, really importantto me. And I think the more
sponsible we are and the moreinclusive we are and aware of
(25:04):
these things. I think that's howyou start to build a bigger
community. And that's when youstart to widen that. So again,
that analogy about the, thewider lens, like I am so aware
of my lived experience, and I'mso aware of those lived
experiences not beingeverybody's experience. And so
my commitment is to learningabout those experiences and
making space for those storiesin the photographs.
Dean Askin (25:27):
And you sort of kind of kind of sort of alluded to
this, but I'm wondering, youknow, do you feel successful
with this, you know, when you goand do a shoot now and you shoot
a disability search, you goback, and you'll look at your
proofs and your images? Are youat the point where you always
say, Yeah, I got it, that'sintentional, that's authentic
and inclusive? Or are youconstantly striving for the next
(25:51):
photographic goalpost?
Hilary Gauld (25:53):
No, I think I'm starting to feel like I'm
contributing positively, that inlike an ethical inclusive way,
that my commitment to that workis now just a part of my
everyday work. So it's not justwithin the disability community
itself. It's against any clientthat I'm working with, I just
know that I take this mindsetand everything I've learned from
(26:16):
Jenny, and I'm applying thatacross all of my work, because
it's not just this communitythat needs a wider lens, it's
just humanity in general, thatneeds a wider lens, whether it
be a cultural, you know,cultural backgrounds, or
invisible disabilities, visibledisabilities, that lens that
wider lens is helping me inevery segment of my work. So
(26:38):
yeah, I definitely am feelingmore aware, better equipped, and
feeling you know, good about theimages when they come out. And I
think to the, the feedback froma lot of the parents is very
positive. And I think they'realso seeing some traction within
this community in the last 10years, because there has been so
much movement and growth. And soI think that, yeah, it's just
(27:03):
helped build that community'sconfidence in general that, you
know, the future for theirchildren is looking more hopeful
all the time. Fantastic,
Jennifer Crowson (27:11):
Jenny, you know, I'm really where it was
really taken an interested inwhat you were describing in
terms of your role as aninclusion coach, you know, when
what do you think are the keysto making sure photographic
stories, storytelling aboutdisability is intentional and
authentic?
Jenny Jay (27:28):
I think there's so many layers to that piece. And
you know, Hillary and I talkabout it a lot. There is
obviously the subliminalmessages in the photos
themselves afterwards. So like Imentioned, who is front and
center, if it's a group photo offolks who's taking up the most
(27:49):
space? How have they beenpositioned? and for what reason,
and there's so many subliminalmessages that get shared in each
and every photograph. But beforeyou even get to that point,
especially when you're thinkingabout how to photograph folks
with different disabilities andunderstanding. And understanding
(28:11):
that disability is such a broadumbrella term, right? There are
so many different experiencesthat come underneath the
umbrella. And access needs forfolks who have disabilities is
actually the experience whenthey're coming into the space.
How do they feel? And are theyallowed to show up and be their
full selves? And are theyallowed to have the same access?
(28:34):
Or the right equivalent access?As someone who would be coming
in who might not have adisability? And do they feel
respected, they feel valued? Dothey feel like they get to show
up in that same way? And thenwhen they are looking at the
pictures, does it feel like atruly authentic representation
of themselves? versus, you know,folks who are from different
(28:58):
marginalized communities knowexactly when a picture is
tokenistic? And sometimes youcan break it down and say, these
are all the reasons whytechnically, like you can tell.
You know, it's a picture forthat or, or sometimes you just
know, and I think like beingable to really incorporate the
feelings that are reallyimportant to honor in the
(29:21):
process of saying like, okay,this person is coming into my
studio, and they have Downsyndrome, and they also are
deaf. And so, do I haveinterpreters here? Do I
understand that I need to speakto the person and not the
interpreter like what will thatexperience be like, Where will
they be? Do I have enough timeallocated for what this process
(29:44):
is going to look like? Now whenI'm going to be sharing the
images, if they're invited intoan event is that also going to
be accessible so that they canfully participate and thinking
about that full participation ofa person? Separate to this is
what the final image is going tolook like, that's what actually
including someone at everysingle stage will look like, and
(30:06):
make them involved in theprocess. So, you know, they're
not just subjects at the end ofthe camera, there's, in one of
the very first spaces that I wasa part of that was like a
documentary fellowship that Idid out in New York. That was
something that we talked about alot in that space, where a lot
of racialized marginalized folkshave been subjected to other
(30:31):
people's cameras and gaze for areally long time. So when you've
seen the constant feature on theother side of a camera, but you
haven't actually been given thefull permission to show up as
yourself, what does that alsomean for the next time you get
asked to be in front of thecamera? What is your
relationship with that? And howcan you trust the person who's
(30:53):
telling your story, especiallyif they're not from your
community to do you justice,because there is also mistrust.
So also thinking about like thattrust building with community.
And you know, Hillary, I thinkis a really great example,
because she's done a lot of thatwork in the trust building,
which is why it doesn't feeltokenistic. And you can sense
that when you see the images,even if you can't pinpoint Well,
(31:15):
why do these images feeldifferent? Versus someone else?
Just saying, you know, what, Iwould love to do a project on
folks with Down syndrome. Andyou can tell like, there are
projects like that, and you can,you can almost instantly tell,
but something is different aboutit. And, but really like
thinking about those, thosepieces of like, well, how do I
fully participate? How do Iallow folks to fully
(31:37):
participate? And how are theyintegrated into this process? So
it's a conversation, not just,here's the end goal, and how I
get to be congratulated aboutit. And Hillary keeps that top
of mind a lot, which, which issomething that I really
appreciate in her opinion. Yeah,
Jennifer Crowson (31:55):
No, I totally agree. And it's really
interesting to hear all that allthat front end stuff that goes
into creating the conversationthat we're talking about, and
I'm gonna flip us to the otherside, in terms of impact, let's
talk about impact for a moment,you know, what's the impact when
it's done? Right? And thatthere's intentionally authentic
inclusion in imagery andphotographic storytelling? And
(32:17):
how can you feel theauthenticity when you look at
that image? And, you know, I'mthinking, I mean, we're talking
about lots of images during thisconversation. You know, at Odin,
our interest is in supportingindividuals who have
disabilities into employment. Sothinking about even imagery
within that space and everythingyou've told us, I don't know,
Hilary or Jenny, whether eitherof you want to contribute to, to
(32:39):
thinking about impact, how do weknow we're getting the impact
we're going for? Um,
Jenny Jay (32:45):
I don't know, I'm, I'm just like a big fan of the
community will tell you whenit's done. Right. And they will
also tell you when it's donewrong. And, you know, there are
a lot of folks in differentcommunities across disabilities
who, you know, will say, certaindisabilities don't have enough
racialized representation, likewhere are all the indigenous
(33:07):
folks who have cancer frommercury poisoning and grassy
narrows? And where are they inthe images? When we're talking
about certain, you know, cancersand conditions? Were like, you
know, there are folks who arefrom racialized communities who
might have different survivalrates for different
(33:29):
disabilities. And when you'relooking at the pamphlets, and
you're looking at, like theentire experience, where's the,
like, the imagery and themessaging that says your
experience is different. And wewill be here to support you
through that. But we understandthat it's unfair, that it's
different. So I think in a lotof ways, it's been done a lot
(33:50):
better. More recently. I thinkwhen you have photograph ers
photograph-ers, I think when youhave photographers who are part
of the communities and who areintentional in that way, you can
tell by virtue of who is infront of the camera, and how
(34:11):
like, real that feels versusstaged. And I think the people
who are missing, at least now inthis digital age are loud enough
to say, we could have done thisbetter.
Jennifer Crowson (34:24):
We could have done it better. And Hillary,
would you add anything aroundimpact?
Hilary Gauld (34:30):
Yeah, I think you know, listening to Jenny impact
is closely tied to trust. Itjust is you can't have the
authentic impact without trustfirst. And I think you know,
when people think aboutphotographs online, because
there's so many of them, theyyou know, anyone can do a photo
post anytime. There's nocredentials as to you know,
(34:52):
whether or not you've done youryour homework or your research
or your learning behind but itis so true impact happens when
trust is built between thecommunity and the person that's
going to be relaying thatmessage. And I think that's the
big thing within my creativeindustry in my creative space,
that obviously, my commitment tothat is, is absolutely the top
(35:15):
of my mind in every job that Ido. But I think the industry as
a whole needs to continue tounderstand what their impact is,
and how positively they canimpact or how negatively and
it's so true that community willtell you. And so, you know, of
(35:35):
course, you know, it can be, Iguess, frustrating sometimes,
because, you know, I have heardof experiences that haven't gone
so well, you know, betweenphotographers doing images of
people in these differentspaces. And I just think it is
time for this creator, you know,creators like myself to become
(35:56):
responsible and understand theimpact of this, and how that
will impact the community. Andeven if it impacts the mind of
one person in a negative way,you continue to perpetuate all
that we're trying to actuallychange. So yeah, I love that,
you know, that, that thoughtaround that trust, and it goes a
(36:20):
long way. And it is, that iswhat you're able to get out of
photos, the comfort, the trust,these are people's lives, that
you're that you're portraying,these are their lived
experiences that you are puttingout online. And to me, I do not
take that lightly, I probablywake up, like, like, half my
(36:40):
days, the first thoughts in mymind when I wake up, especially
when the when the series areheading out to media, it is a
little stressful when they'regoing out every day, and I'm
checking the headlines, and whatare they going to send her? And
are they doing it in the rightway. And I understand that, you
know, the media itself isn'talways responsible to these
things, either. But I just knowthat I've done, you know, I am
(37:02):
doing the best that I can tomake sure those messages when we
send them out they are you know,they're authentic, and they are
true to that community. And youjust hope that you're also
helping guide media with whatyou're doing.
Dean Askin (37:16):
You know, however, you touched on a little bit of,
of what I wanted to ask, youknow, when when there isn't that
intentionality? I mean, youknow, what are all the, you
know, negative impacts of that.And, you know, what does the
photography industry andphotographers need to understand
about the impact that they canhave positive or negative? I
(37:37):
mean, I keep thinking about allthat stock photography that's
out there, you know, and I've,you know, tried to, you know,
look for some of it myself, youknow, to illustrate a blog post,
and you go from one site toanother, and you see the same,
you know, contrived images on,you know, five or six different
sites? I mean, what impact doesthat have, when that kind of
(38:00):
imagery? That's not well thoughtout? And intentional, is being
used on websites and blog posts?I mean, what what impact does
that have on community on, youknow, on, on employment and
society in general?
Hilary Gauld (38:16):
Well, I think, number one, it breaks the trust
between that community and thenthe greater community at large.
So I think it just makes thepart or, you know, we consume
pictures, we consume film, weconsume media, all of these
kinds of things. And I thinkthat, you know, it just, it just
doesn't help further thecommunity. It just doesn't, I
(38:37):
just think that's the thing.It's just that simple. It just
doesn't help them. I think thatit can leave people stuck in
what they think about people,and then they treat them based
on what they see. And so I thinkthat, yeah, I think it can
definitely have a negativeimpact. And I, you put yourself
into someone else's experience,and when you know, you're not
(38:58):
being represented properly, itjust doesn't do anything
positive for your own mentalspace. As a person in that
group, it just continues to makeyou feel like you are, you know,
stuck in a look or a box thatsomeone's put you in that you
know, you don't belong in.
Jenny Jay (39:18):
Yeah, I just had a thought. Something that I think
about a lot is, who were thecreators of the stories that
we've been consuming all thistime. And when I say who were
the creators, like, who hadaccess, who has access, and who
now will have access, and if youthink about who, typically in
(39:40):
the last 110 120 years, withcameras typically have been the
storytellers it hasdisproportionately not been the
people who have beenphotographed. And so the impact
is all of these ideas that wehave about different groups of
people. A lot of them has beenreinforced by media narratives
(40:02):
that were never told by thecommunities themselves, right,
you have an entire era of like,World Vision type of marketing,
you have entire, like, eras ofessentially like the stock
imagery, photos that we've seen,like that's been what has been
there for so long. Because thepeople who were featured in the,
(40:26):
in the photographs themselves,like aren't the ones who have
access to DSLRs, and cameras andfilm equipment and the ability
to just pull out and say, like,here's the story, here's the
truth. Here's your authenticversion of what this actually
looks like. And you have so manygatekeepers in these industries
who work inside of thesemarketing spaces and
communication spaces andcampaigns, because you also need
(40:49):
money to further research,right? You need the images to
help further research and impactand what a lot of like, really
great organizations are doing.But because there have been so
many barriers into who gets tobe the one to capture all the
different communities acrossdisability gender, like race,
(41:13):
like folks who aredisproportionately impacted in
this country. You just have,what you see is the world that
we live in now, where you haveto do so much unlearning. And
you have to re write these ideasand stories, you're like, where
did that idea even come from?And you're like, yeah, like
(41:33):
maybe like all the years ofwatching those ads in the 90s.
Like, that's where those ideascame from. And we didn't realize
the subliminal messaging that itwas telling us about, you know,
folks with Down syndrome arealways happy. And you know, you
should be grateful because youdon't have a disability. And,
you know, like all the I thinkof like, the what is it the TV
(41:56):
shows that used to like, centeron like, making entertainment
out of folks with dwarfism,like, you know, like, that's
what our media has been for solong, because it was all made
foreign by people not directlyimpacted. So yeah, those are,
those are the VODs.
Dean Askin (42:16):
I just want to jump in here with a with a follow up,
because you've you've made,you've got me thinking as you
were talking, Jenny, you know,in the introduction to this
episode, you know, I was talkingabout Nick Ute, you know, the
photographer who took thatfamous napalm girl photograph.
And maybe that's one of thereasons why that photograph was
so powerful because he, as thephotographer, was from the
(42:40):
community, he was born inVietnam, his his older brother
was a photographer and waskilled in combat. And that's
what spurred him to want tobecome a photo journalist. And
then ultimately, he had thatphotograph of those Vietnamese
children running away from thenapalm attack
Jenny Jay (42:59):
The level of trust that would have taken for him to
be in that situation in thatplace in that context to take it
in the first place. Like, wouldthat have happened in another
context? Maybe not?
Jennifer Crowson (43:11):
Well, I feel like I could listen, I could
listen to this all afternoon,you know, this is so
interesting, you know, but I'mgonna kind of combine the next
two questions and ask you boththe or either of you, in terms
of, you know, what would be yourmain message to photographers
out there who are thinking abouthow do they portray disability
(43:33):
in their photography? And andthe kind of second part of that
question, for those of us whoare out there looking to use
images that may or may beavailable, you know, for a blog
post or for a business web page?How do we make sure that people
like what's the advice, Isuppose for people in terms of
how to do that a little bit moreauthentically and intentionally,
(43:56):
Hilary or Jenny, whoever wantsto kind of kick us off for both
of this.
Hilary Gauld (44:01):
So I think I would start within my own community,
to really make sure thatphotographers and creators
understand their power and theirimpact. It's not it's never just
a photo store photos, tellstories. And we know that from
the history of photography,there are photos that have lived
(44:22):
on in our history and our, ourin our brain forever. And so I
think that we as a communityhave to understand our power and
impact. And I, I do do Jedi usesthat term on learning. I think
there's a lot of unlearning thatneeds to be done. decentering in
terms of, you know, we are thephotographers, but we're not the
(44:43):
stars. We're not the maincharacters. I think that's
really important on learning,and understanding the community
understanding your impact onthat community. And it's not
just as simple as that, as Jennysaid, I'm going to photograph
some kids with out syndromebecause they're fun to work
with. And I could put it onlineand people are going to comment
(45:04):
and that kind of thing. You needto be intentional, you need to
be intentional because thatcamera is a powerful tool. And
you have the ability to hurt acommunity, if you're not being
authentic, and you're not beingaware of your impact and aware
of how your imagery comes acrossonline, I think that that, to me
is very important. And toreally, if you're going to enter
(45:26):
a space that you do not havethat experience in, you need to
learn about that space, you needto understand, you know, the to
build that trust, we need tounderstand what that community's
goals are, and what things theywhat messages they want to get
out. That's what makes it apowerful space, when that comes
together. And I do believe thereneeds to be more education, more
(45:50):
unlearning, there needs to bemore awareness by creators in
general, in that space. And Ithink once you understand that,
you will never unsee that,again, it doesn't matter what
client you are with, you will belooking for all those cues. And
it may be as simple as youunderstand that the person
standing in front of you hasanxiety, and that there's
(46:13):
something that could beunderneath that or there's a
there, they're standing in acertain way that you're like,
there's something more going onhere, you become a lot more
intuitive, I think, I know,that's something that's always
come very naturally to me withmy with who I'm working with as
an intuitiveness in terms of,you know, people's comfort or
things they may be thinking orthey a lot of past experience
(46:36):
will come up for people inphotos, it can be traumatic for
some people. So depending on,you know, things people have
said to them about how they lookin photos over the years, those
kind of things. So I think italso helps to make you more
intuitive. And, yeah, becausethe last thing you want is
someone to leave and feel as ifyou know, you've either fed a
(46:58):
stereotype or you've saidsomething to them, that feels
uncomfortable. But obviously,everyone's going to not always
get it right. But I think themost important thing is that
you're learning and you aretrying to get it right.
Jennifer Crowson (47:13):
Fantastic. Thank you, Jenny, did you want
to add to that?
Jenny Jay (47:16):
Um, I was just gonna say, in the documentary film
world, when you're applying forgrants, and doing the process,
something that a lot of placesask you for is an impact
statement. It's one of the veryfew industries that asks for, do
you understand the impact ofyour work? And what will it be?
Or what are you hoping that itwill be? And I think that needs
(47:37):
to extend to documentary work asa whole, including photography.
And if we ask that question ofourselves, as creators,
documenting people, real livedexperiences, I think that would
change so much of like, the thework that we see exist now.
Dean Askin (47:58):
So many powerful photographic insights from both
of you. You know, we've we've,you shared a lot of insights
we've talked about a lot. Imean, just before we wrap things
up, is there anything we haven'ttalked about that you think is
important dimension? I alwayshave to ask that question.
That's always the the theessential question to ask at the
(48:19):
at the end of every podcast.
Hilary Gauld (48:23):
I think that this is honestly the beginning of the
conversation. I feel like thereis, as Jenny said, like, I could
honestly talk all day about thisas well. It is the beginning of
the conversation. I don't evenfeel within my own industry.
Other photographers are talkingamongst themselves about impact.
And how like Jenny said, howthey're positioning people in
(48:45):
photos and what story that tellsand, and those kinds of thing. I
think that yeah, I just feellike this is actually the
beginning of this conversation.Jenny, any thoughts?
Jenny Jay (48:55):
In agreement with Hillary? And I think if there is
one question I can leave withother photographers who want to
do this work, ask yourself whosegaze is it for? And that usually
answers a lot of question aboutwhy you're doing a project in
the first place.
Jennifer Crowson (49:12):
Incredible, ou know, and I think Hilary to pick
up on what you said, and Jenny,I hope this is the beginning of
this conversation, you know,because I'm finding it really
interesting and reallyinsightful as somebody who who
doesn't come from thephotographic world and, but is
somebody who is reallyinterested in making sure that
(49:32):
the work that I do is inclusiveand authentic. So I really
appreciate this and, and thisidea of how images, they're not
just they're never just aphotograph, I was really taken
by, by that comment. They're notthere. They're a very powerful
tool. They're a tool that canshift and create narrative, you
know, as Dean has talked about,in terms of some of the
photographer's that he's pulledon, you know, in terms of this
(49:53):
conversation, and, and obviouslywe are we are here to kind of
shift that narrative about howwe think about it. People who
have disabilities and thecontributions they can make to
their communities andemployment. So I really have
really appreciated thisconversation and I want to thank
you both for coming on the show,and giving us your perspective
on how to make disability.Photography inclusive. I'm
(50:17):
Jennifer Crossan, and once againthird time this season. It's
been fun and great co hostingwith you, Dean.
Dean Askin (50:23):
Well, I saw your LinkedIn post about how you were
really starting to enjoy cohosting the show. I want to
thank you again for sitting infor jet for this episode, then a
great one, and Episode 21 andEpisode 20. By the way, be sure
to catch those two episodes. Ifyou haven't yet listeners,
Episode 21, about disabilityinclusion on university
(50:44):
campuses, and Episode 20, aboutableism in the workplace. Those
were both great conversationsJennifer and I had with our
guests and this has been anothergreat conversation as well. So
thank you for me as well toHilary and Jenny, for coming on
the show.
Jennifer Crowson (51:00):
Next episode is another segment of our making
the journey series, isn't it?Dean?
Dean Askin (51:06):
That's right, Jennifer, instalment number two
of the occasional series welaunched last year during
National Disability EmploymentAwareness Month. co host Pawrnaa
Perinpanayagam and I will betalking with a small-business
owner who's just starting thedisability-inclusive hiring
journey. Surveys have shown thatover half the small businesses
in Canada have never hiredsomeone who has a disability.
(51:27):
That's episode 25, coming laterthis month on July 23.
Jennifer Crowson (51:31):
And that's it for this episode of You Can't
Spell Inclusion Without a D. Andfor me this season. Once again,
I'm Jennifer Crowson.
Dean Askin (51:39):
And I'm Dean Askin Thanks again for listening
wherever, whenever and onwhatever podcast app you're
listening from. Join us eachepisode as we have insightful
conversations like thisphotographic one, and explored
disability inclusion in businessand in our communities. From all
the angles You Can't SpellInclusion without a D is
(52:01):
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network. All rightsreserved. Our podcast production
team, Executive Producer andHost Jeannette Campbell Producer
Sue Dafoe Associate Producer andHost Dean Askin audio editing
and production by Dean Askin.Our podcast theme is last summer
(52:21):
by Ikksen. If you have feedbackor comments about an episode,
contact us at info atodenetwork.com. That's
info@odnetwork.com. Join us eachepisode for insights from expert
guests as we explore the powerof inclusion, the business
benefits of inclusive hiring andwhy disability is an important
part of the Diversity Equity andInclusion conversation. Listen
(52:45):
to You Can't Spell InclusionWithout a D on Podbean or
wherever you find your favouritepodcasts.
You Can't Spell Inclusion without a D. The
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeannette Campbell and
Dean Askin.
(00:26):
One of the most famousphotographs in modern history
was the one taken by AssociatedPress photographer Nick Ute in
1972. At the height of theVietnam War, it's known as
"napalm girl", that famous photoof a young girl named Kim Fuk
and other children runningterrified and naked towards the
camera away from a napalmattack. It told a powerful
(00:49):
story. It made such an impactthat it changed public opinion
about the Vietnam War. Hi there.I'm Dean Askin, and this is
episode 24 of You Can't SpellInclusion Without a D. Wondering
where we're going with thisepisode? Well keep listening.
Jennifer Crowson (01:05):
In the same era between 1969 and 1971,
during the last two years of herlife, famous American
photographer Diane Arbusphotographed people who have
intellectual disabilities in theenvironment they lived in. She
focused on state-run homes andinstitutions in New Jersey.
Hello, I'm Jennifer Crossansitting in again for Jeannette
(01:26):
Campbell. The famous series ofphotos is called the Diane Arbus
Untitled it was the firstenvironmental portraiture of its
kind of disability.
Dean Askin (01:36):
The series was exhibited in its entirety for
the first time in 2018 at theDavid Zwerner gallery in
Manhattan. New York Times artcritic Arthur Lubow described
the work as some of the mostmysterious and haunting pictures
made by Diane Arbus during hertoo-short 15 year career.
Jennifer Crowson (01:56):
Whether the Untitled series was artistically
inclusive, or helped perpetuatemyths and stereotypes about
disability is of course open tointerpretation. How disability
is broadly viewed and perceivedcan depend on how it's seen
through the photographer's mind,eye, viewfinder and lens.
Dean Askin (02:15):
If you've ever looked for a stock photo
portraying disability to use ina blog post or on a website
page, you might find yourselfthinking they all look the same.
They all look contrived and theydon't authentically portray
disability in all its diversity.Hilary Gauld is on a personal
mission to make sure herphotographic work portraying
disability is inclusive andauthentic, that it tells an
(02:38):
inclusive story about theperson. She's a commercial and
portrait photographer inKitchener-Waterloo, Ontario.
Jennifer Crowson (02:45):
She's photographed multiple series of
images for the Canadian DownSyndrome Society campaigns and
full disclosure, I'm the currentChair of the Canadian Down
Syndrome Society, and I'm veryfamiliar with Hilary's work, and
also very fond of it. Hilarysays working with an inclusion
coach is helping her to stay onmission with her photography.
That inclusion coach is JennyJay. She builds herself as a
(03:08):
creator, storyteller andeducator. Hilary Gauld and Jenny
Jay, welcome to You Can't SpellInclusion Without a D.
Hilary Gauld (03:16):
Thank you.
Jenny Jay (03:17):
Thank you so much for having us.
Jennifer Crowson (03:20):
Oh, it's a pleasure. Okay, I'm gonna kick
off with the first question.It's really directed, I guess,
to you, Hillary, you know,you've been a family portrait
photographer for 16 years, andyou've done some commercial
work, too. What motivated you tostart doing personal projects,
photographing people who have adisability?
Hilary Gauld (03:39):
I actually get asked this question quite often,
because of the, you know, howmuch the work has grown, the
body of work has grown. And Iwish I could tell you some, you
know, elaborate story of howthis all really came about, but
it was just simply that one ofmy friends had a son born with
Down syndrome 10 years ago. Andshe, Caleb actually almost
(04:04):
didn't live at birth. And Ifollowed that journey. We had
been friends for a really longtime. And then she brought Caleb
into my studio one day when hewas about six months old, and
said, they were looking for aphotographer for their yearly
calendar that they hadphotographed. And it was used
for fundraising purposes. Andthe money going back to the
(04:29):
community group there to findprogramming and support. So I
said, Yeah, we'd love to dothis, because I just felt tied
to her story. And I think herjourney and watching this little
boy be born and it was notsomething that they were aware
of before Caleb was born that hehad Down syndrome. And, you
(04:49):
know, I just think it's one ofthose things that, you know, we
all have our lived experience,which I'm learning so much more
about every day and obviouslythrough my work with Jenny about
what that actually means. means,and that, you know, my lived
experiences certainly didn'tencompass anyone with Down
Syndrome and my close circles.And so when I took on this
(05:12):
assignment at the time, I thinkI was just so surprised at so
many different things, which I'msure we'll get into when I first
met these families in thiscommunity. And just
understanding that, you know, mylived experience, then, you
know, it's cliche, but I guess Ihad a narrow lens, and obviously
worked with a lot ofneurotypical children and
(05:34):
families and that kind of thingearly in my career. So, yeah, I
think that, that, you know, thisis that's what led me to do all
of this, Caleb was that soleinspiration. But obviously, from
there, it's grown into somethingso much more
Jennifer Crowson (05:49):
Amazing and, and how did you then become
involved in with the CanadianDown Syndrome Society and
shooting all of those incredibleseries of images that you've
done for them?
Hilary Gauld (05:59):
So through the work at the Waterloo, Wellington
Down Syndrome Society, and youknow, the series that we would
do each year, some, you know,the photos started to filter
around the internet, and amongstother Down syndrome, community
groups in Ontario. And so thecommittee and the president of
(06:21):
the Canadian Down SyndromeSociety took notice of the
imagery we were creating in thatspace. And so, you know, I kind
of gotten had heard that, oh,they wanted some of our images.
And they were really interestedin what we were capturing, and
that kind of thing. And so myfirst real interaction with my
guests was just Yes, go ahead,please use the photos, we would
love to see them in widerdistribution. So I was thrilled,
(06:44):
obviously, that they werenoticed by the larger umbrella
organization of Down SyndromeCommunity. And then about, I'd
say, three or four years ago,outside of just them using those
images, I had always had acouple things in mind that I
would have liked to photograph.But obviously, that didn't
(07:05):
necessarily fit the group I wasworking with locally, because
the group we work with locallyis babies straight through to
children, teens, and to adults.And some of the things that I
noticed amongst this community,I was like, I'd love to tell
these stories, but they didn'tfit within kind of that, you
know, the calendar, you know,scenario we had. So I talked to
(07:28):
those back in my head, and thenI just, I kind of just reached
out one day and said, You know,I have this idea that I'd love
to photograph adults with Downsyndrome in love, and what love
looks like to them. And, youknow, in whatever shape that may
be, whether it's platonic love,friendship, love, romantic love.
(07:48):
I'd like to see what that lookslike. Because again, that at
that time was not something wewe saw represented in a great
way online, and in mainstreammedia. So that was kind of my
first attempt to work with themin a larger way. So I went to
them, I presented the concept.And I just said, regardless of
whether we partner or not, Iwill I want to produce this. And
(08:10):
they came back and said, we'dlove to partner and help produce
this series. So that was myfirst big national kind of
portrait campaign that myselfand obviously, Jenny was really
involved in a lot of thatmessaging and crafting our plans
with that. So that's kind of howthat got started. And then the
the following year, we did hereI am. So Laura said, you know,
(08:32):
she's the director, she said,I'd really like to see adults
with Down syndrome, aging. Andso of course, I was on board for
another series. And anotheramazing success story with that
one as well, educating people onwhat that looked like to age
with Dravet Syndrome and tobreak down further stereotypes
around, you know, people withDown syndrome, living a lot
(08:53):
longer than what probably mostpeople understand their lifespan
is. So that's kind of the earlyintroduction to them. And then,
you know, every year that I dothe photos for the Waterloo,
Wellington Down SyndromeSociety, I was offered those to
the Canadian Down SyndromeSociety to use those. And then
they've hired me for a few otherthings, if they have specific
needs to photograph, you know,children or parents or
(09:16):
caregivers so that we can bettertell that story on their
platform.
Dean Askin (09:20):
You know, I want to jump in here because, you know,
photography is one of the thingsthat I do as well. I mean, I
don't make my living at it, butI you know, I do it creatively
and it's been part of my careerand I have exhibited art shows
and one of the things I I loveto photograph is environmental,
you know, portraits of peopleand I'm curious, tell me what it
(09:42):
was like about the first timeyou photographed a person who
has a disability mean? What wasthat like? You know, what was
going through your mind as aphotographer, when you were
setting up the shot and lookingthrough the viewfinder and
trying to figure it out?
Hilary Gauld (09:56):
I think as this year has been a really
reflective year for all of us,because we are celebrating the
10th anniversary of doing thisseries. And so it has really
taken me back to it really sitand think about, you know, what
was I feeling in that moment?And what was that? How did this
really all begin in my mind? AndI think probably, again, my
(10:17):
lived experience did not haveanyone with Down syndrome close
to me. So I think I was, I was Iremember being quite taken
aback. And I think it was justsimply, you know, the connection
of the kids with their families,I think it was just
understanding their abilities.And I think, you know, that is
probably one of the biggestlearnings is that not to
(10:40):
underestimate anybody, and toassume what they can and cannot
do. And so I think that's whatI've learned most because I, you
know, can get stuck in my ownhead. Are they able to do this?
Will they, you know, this thefirst year we were outside in a
park. And then the second year,I wanted to move them into the
studio. Simply because I thinkbecause I didn't see imagery
(11:01):
that was really kind of capturedin that way. And so I remember
thinking, will this be okay,will this work, and now I just
don't, I would know that theywere going for anything, no
matter where we'd want tophotograph that everyone would
be fine with it. So I was ableto push my own ideas. And I
(11:21):
think, you know, it challengesyour own misconceptions. But I
think in general, it justbroadens your understanding of,
of this community and whatdisability looks like, and the
invisible challenges and thevisible challenges and all of
this. So yeah, I definitely goback to that. And I think more
than anything, I was justquietly learning, and taking it
(11:43):
all in and understanding that,you know, each child or teen had
a different way of communicatingwith me. And yeah, so you just
really had to listen, and youhad to respond in the way that,
you know, relates to them andthat kind of thing. So yeah, it
was it. It was huge learning.I've taken that all the way
through. But I would say ifsomeone asked me, What's your
(12:03):
number one, it would definitelybe around just ability and not
assuming what they can or can'tdo in front of a camera.
Dean Askin (12:11):
All those things, you were talking about it? You
know, it's it's all aboutawareness, isn't it? I mean, how
would you describe your level ofdisability awareness as a
photographer, before you starteddoing this compared to now?
Hilary Gauld (12:25):
So I think when I think about this, I really do
picture in my head a lens. And Ithink it was a narrow focus,
when I really think about theworld that I grew up in. And the
world of people that Iinteracted with, and friends and
family, I think I just realizedhow narrow my lens was. And so I
(12:46):
love how wide my lens is now,and how I, you know, am able to
respond to people and anticipateneeds and how to speak to people
with disability and how torespect their boundaries and
what they're comfortable with.So I would say that, you know,
my narrow lens has widened agreat deal in the last 10 years.
(13:07):
And it will continue to do thatas I expand into other
disability spaces withphotography, which is, you know,
a big goal of mine to continueto produce imagery in an
authentic way. Has we still havea ways to go? But yeah, I would
just think that it was fairlynarrow, I think, and then think
of today that banded to othergroups, other thoughts? And I
(13:31):
think my mind is just so muchmore open.
Jennifer Crowson (13:35):
Thanks, Hillary, I have to say, I have a
big smile on my face, you know,because I just I love the words
that you're saying and howyou're describing it. And, you
know, when you and I weretalking, before we did this
show, I was really taken withhow you were telling me about
how you've worked really hardactually to make sure that the
images you create areintentional, authentic, and
(13:56):
inclusive. Can you talk to us alittle bit about how you did
that? What's involved? And andwhat were maybe some challenges
that you faced in doing that?And? Yeah,
Hilary Gauld (14:07):
Well, I do remember when I first started
this, that I did do a Googlesearch and looked for imagery
because I was interested,because who I'd met in person
did not match with what I sawonline for the imagery, just in
general, there was a lack ofimagery to begin with. And
secondly, the imagery tended tobe not high quality imagery, and
(14:31):
what I felt really fed somestereotypes within the
community. And so I feel likeyou know, that's where we've
worked hard to fill those gaps.Sorry, totally forgot your
question.
Jennifer Crowson (14:46):
It's really we're interested, we're
interested in, you know, interms of this idea of making
your imagery more intentional,authentic, inclusive, you know,
how challenging was that? andwhat's involved? And I think the
way you started it actuallyaround the kind of Google
searches a great one, right?Because hopefully people will
(15:06):
start Google searching and comeacross your images, right?
Hilary Gauld (15:11):
Yeah, so I noticed a gap in that imagery. And I
remember thinking there's adisconnect between who I just
photographed. And what I sawonline. And there was one series
at the time I saw that reallycaptured my eye. And that was
kind of the only one thatexisted. So I felt that there
was a, you know, an opportunityto grow the imagery within that
(15:32):
community. And I also justreally wanted to see people with
Down syndrome, somewhat in thesame light as everybody else.
Because it feels like sometimesthe most beautiful best light is
reserved for the most ablebodied, beautiful people in the
world. And I just feel like Iwanted to put literally put that
light on these people. And Ifeel like that it just when you
(15:56):
take away all that other stuffthat allows you to really see
the person. And so I just, Iknew that it was going to kind
of shake up that imagery scene,when I did that, like just doing
really strong portraits, andshowing an array of emotion, I
think that's another big thingand array of clothing choices,
(16:16):
and an array of posing and justallowing them to be themselves
in the in the images. So like Isaid, I feel like the original
images I saw online really fedcertain stereotypes. And I'd say
one of the big ones is thatpeople with Down syndrome are
always happy. And I just feelsometimes I've come to learn, or
this is just how I feel is thatit just makes people feel more
(16:38):
comfortable, if they see themalways happy. Right? So it's
like if they always want thatbig smile, or that goofing
around, or being silly, which isa part of, you know, all of us.
But it's like there are serioussides, there are quiet sides,
not everyone with Down syndromeis always laughing are always
smiling. Sometimes people withDown syndrome are quiet, and
(16:59):
they you know, look away alittle bit from the camera, or
they look down or whatever. Andsome of them do like to, you
know, play around with thecamera and have a lot of fun. So
I just wanted to do a greaterarray of photography. And I
think the one big thing thatalways stands out with me is
that Down Syndrome itself issuch an is carries, to me one of
(17:23):
the heaviest stigmas within thedisability community. So it is
just something that it carries astigma that is hundreds and
hundreds of years old. And therewas a time that people with Down
syndrome. And other conditionstoo, were not integrated into
communities, they were, youknow, housed in different areas
(17:44):
and not a part of our generalcommunity. And so I think that
in itself was so powerful to me,and especially as a
photographer, and again, usingthat figurative language of
bringing someone out of either ashadow or bringing someone out
of that sort of heavy stigma,and making space in the wider
community as kit children withDown syndrome are integrated
(18:05):
more into schools and, and thehonestly, there's so much work
to do with integrating them intoworkplace and community groups
and things like that. So yeah,there's all kinds of interesting
analogies and interesting kindof visions in my head as to, you
know, how to kind of show thiscommunity in a way that's far
more authentic than it was 10years ago.
Dean Askin (18:27):
Jenny has been listening to the conversation
intently here, I want to bringJenny into it now. You know,
Jenny, urine inclusion coach,and he'll reuse said before the
show that Jenny's helped youenormously in making sure your
work is intentional, authenticand inclusive. I mean, first
off, and whoever wants to startoff here, I mean, for those who
may not have heard the termbefore, what is an inclusion
(18:51):
coach, and how, as what you twohave done together, helped
Hilary achieve her mission.
Jenny Jay (19:01):
I've been really enjoying listening in on this
conversation. So I wear manyhats, and I am and like ethical
storytelling coach andconsultant. And a lot of that is
with digital marketing andvisual media. Because that's the
(19:23):
background that I come with. Andas someone who is in that space,
I have been so frustrated and amcontinuously frustrated with how
tokenistic sometimes digitalmarketing campaigns can be media
campaigns can be and like thevisuals that are supposed to be
(19:46):
there to tell individual andcommunity stories don't actually
center and include thecommunities that are that are
being spoken about and talkedabout. There's been so much to
change that in the last year. 10to 15 years and their incredible
community storytellers andcreators and folks like Hillary,
who are doing with the utmostcare and intention. But also
(20:10):
with the way social media andour digital landscape has
changed, there are a lot offolks who aren't necessarily
coming in with that same lens.So that's kind of how I got into
the space of consulting, in thiswork, especially because I have
a background in in film andcreative writing in media and
(20:31):
journalism. And a lot of thosespaces have also been primed to
think about telling stories in away that isn't necessarily
inclusive to the communitiesthat they're supposed to be
about, and can be a lot moreextractive in nature. So and,
you know, Hilary and I met, whenI was running, running workshops
online in terms of how to createand share inclusive
(20:55):
communications and an onlinespace. And thinking about things
that shouldn't should be likecommon knowledge, like, even
when you're thinking about like,website and social media
accessibility, thinking aboutyour colors, thinking about when
you are looking at a photo, whois in the center of it, who is
quite literally taking up themost space, in the images that
you use, and the places that youput them on your sites and the
(21:18):
campaigns that you're creating.And so our conversation where it
started from that place, andstarted, like really like
unpacking a lot of Hilary's workas well. And also like being
able to challenge and ask like,Well, why is this project or
these projects really important?Who is included? And who hasn't
been included? who continues tobe left out? And for what
(21:41):
reason? So, yeah, that's all ofthat, my bread and butter.
Dean Askin (21:48):
So in Hilary, how would you how would you say,
sorry, Jennifer,
Jennifer Crowson (21:52):
No, no, no, carry on.
Dean Askin (21:53):
How? Hillary? How would you say? How much? And
tell me a little I want a littlebit more about how much Jenny
has helped you and the evolutionyou've seen?
Hilary Gauld (22:08):
Well, I try to remind Jenny a lot, especially
when we do our coaching, I madesure she knows how grateful I
am. For her and her knowledgeand the commitment she has to
this space. It's changed my workenormously. Do I think I was on
a positive path and anintentional path to begin with?
(22:30):
Yes. But were there ways inwhich I could improve that
story? Absolutely. And so, tome, this journey has been the
greatest gift to this space andwork, not just, you know,
obviously, I can take the photosand the portraits, but how those
stories are actually told, hasreally changed. And again, I'm
(22:51):
gonna go back to that livedexperience and narrow lens, I am
very aware of my livedexperiences, and my narrow lens.
And I think that Jenny'sexperience, and her background
and her her lived experience,continues to widen for me on the
storytelling end of it. And so,yeah, I think it's it's changed
(23:14):
things immensely. And, you know,I did, I think there was a time
mid project or mid kind of inthis decade, that I was starting
to feel like, perhaps some ofthe work I was doing, or just me
as a photographer was startingto be centered. And I really
wanted to work. I said to Jenny,straight out, like, I just want
a way to dissenter myself fromthis story. Because when you're
(23:36):
working with media, and they'relooking at the story, often
times they were looking to me,as you know, this thing I've put
together and and I just reallywanted to understand how do we
shift that in the media so thatthey are centered in the story.
And so Jenny was also there toreally help me with that,
because that piece didn't alwayssit well with me. You cannot
(24:00):
choose always what the mediawill pick out of your story as
the headline or the main story.But at least I went in with more
of an understanding of how toposition, the press release and
our messaging so that I becameless the story. And the people
in the series became the story.And that is a part an important
(24:22):
part of this evolution is justeven guiding the way that you
present your things in themedia. So the right stories are
tools. So I was even starting torecognize that. And again, I
think I just got to a pointwhere I realized also that the
work was becoming bigger thestories were being so well
received. And I was like weactually have some weight in
(24:44):
this space. And so it'simportant for myself, being the
photographer and leading helpingto lead the committee in our
messaging. I have a I have aresponsibility to that. And
that's really, really importantto me. And I think the more
sponsible we are and the moreinclusive we are and aware of
(25:04):
these things. I think that's howyou start to build a bigger
community. And that's when youstart to widen that. So again,
that analogy about the, thewider lens, like I am so aware
of my lived experience, and I'mso aware of those lived
experiences not beingeverybody's experience. And so
my commitment is to learningabout those experiences and
making space for those storiesin the photographs.
Dean Askin (25:27):
And you sort of kind of kind of sort of alluded to
this, but I'm wondering, youknow, do you feel successful
with this, you know, when you goand do a shoot now and you shoot
a disability search, you goback, and you'll look at your
proofs and your images? Are youat the point where you always
say, Yeah, I got it, that'sintentional, that's authentic
and inclusive? Or are youconstantly striving for the next
(25:51):
photographic goalpost?
Hilary Gauld (25:53):
No, I think I'm starting to feel like I'm
contributing positively, that inlike an ethical inclusive way,
that my commitment to that workis now just a part of my
everyday work. So it's not justwithin the disability community
itself. It's against any clientthat I'm working with, I just
know that I take this mindsetand everything I've learned from
(26:16):
Jenny, and I'm applying thatacross all of my work, because
it's not just this communitythat needs a wider lens, it's
just humanity in general, thatneeds a wider lens, whether it
be a cultural, you know,cultural backgrounds, or
invisible disabilities, visibledisabilities, that lens that
wider lens is helping me inevery segment of my work. So
(26:38):
yeah, I definitely am feelingmore aware, better equipped, and
feeling you know, good about theimages when they come out. And I
think to the, the feedback froma lot of the parents is very
positive. And I think they'realso seeing some traction within
this community in the last 10years, because there has been so
much movement and growth. And soI think that, yeah, it's just
(27:03):
helped build that community'sconfidence in general that, you
know, the future for theirchildren is looking more hopeful
all the time. Fantastic,
Jennifer Crowson (27:11):
Jenny, you know, I'm really where it was
really taken an interested inwhat you were describing in
terms of your role as aninclusion coach, you know, when
what do you think are the keysto making sure photographic
stories, storytelling aboutdisability is intentional and
authentic?
Jenny Jay (27:28):
I think there's so many layers to that piece. And
you know, Hillary and I talkabout it a lot. There is
obviously the subliminalmessages in the photos
themselves afterwards. So like Imentioned, who is front and
center, if it's a group photo offolks who's taking up the most
(27:49):
space? How have they beenpositioned? and for what reason,
and there's so many subliminalmessages that get shared in each
and every photograph. But beforeyou even get to that point,
especially when you're thinkingabout how to photograph folks
with different disabilities andunderstanding. And understanding
(28:11):
that disability is such a broadumbrella term, right? There are
so many different experiencesthat come underneath the
umbrella. And access needs forfolks who have disabilities is
actually the experience whenthey're coming into the space.
How do they feel? And are theyallowed to show up and be their
full selves? And are theyallowed to have the same access?
(28:34):
Or the right equivalent access?As someone who would be coming
in who might not have adisability? And do they feel
respected, they feel valued? Dothey feel like they get to show
up in that same way? And thenwhen they are looking at the
pictures, does it feel like atruly authentic representation
of themselves? versus, you know,folks who are from different
(28:58):
marginalized communities knowexactly when a picture is
tokenistic? And sometimes youcan break it down and say, these
are all the reasons whytechnically, like you can tell.
You know, it's a picture forthat or, or sometimes you just
know, and I think like beingable to really incorporate the
feelings that are reallyimportant to honor in the
(29:21):
process of saying like, okay,this person is coming into my
studio, and they have Downsyndrome, and they also are
deaf. And so, do I haveinterpreters here? Do I
understand that I need to speakto the person and not the
interpreter like what will thatexperience be like, Where will
they be? Do I have enough timeallocated for what this process
(29:44):
is going to look like? Now whenI'm going to be sharing the
images, if they're invited intoan event is that also going to
be accessible so that they canfully participate and thinking
about that full participation ofa person? Separate to this is
what the final image is going tolook like, that's what actually
including someone at everysingle stage will look like, and
(30:06):
make them involved in theprocess. So, you know, they're
not just subjects at the end ofthe camera, there's, in one of
the very first spaces that I wasa part of that was like a
documentary fellowship that Idid out in New York. That was
something that we talked about alot in that space, where a lot
of racialized marginalized folkshave been subjected to other
(30:31):
people's cameras and gaze for areally long time. So when you've
seen the constant feature on theother side of a camera, but you
haven't actually been given thefull permission to show up as
yourself, what does that alsomean for the next time you get
asked to be in front of thecamera? What is your
relationship with that? And howcan you trust the person who's
(30:53):
telling your story, especiallyif they're not from your
community to do you justice,because there is also mistrust.
So also thinking about like thattrust building with community.
And you know, Hillary, I thinkis a really great example,
because she's done a lot of thatwork in the trust building,
which is why it doesn't feeltokenistic. And you can sense
that when you see the images,even if you can't pinpoint Well,
(31:15):
why do these images feeldifferent? Versus someone else?
Just saying, you know, what, Iwould love to do a project on
folks with Down syndrome. Andyou can tell like, there are
projects like that, and you can,you can almost instantly tell,
but something is different aboutit. And, but really like
thinking about those, thosepieces of like, well, how do I
fully participate? How do Iallow folks to fully
(31:37):
participate? And how are theyintegrated into this process? So
it's a conversation, not just,here's the end goal, and how I
get to be congratulated aboutit. And Hillary keeps that top
of mind a lot, which, which issomething that I really
appreciate in her opinion. Yeah,
Jennifer Crowson (31:55):
No, I totally agree. And it's really
interesting to hear all that allthat front end stuff that goes
into creating the conversationthat we're talking about, and
I'm gonna flip us to the otherside, in terms of impact, let's
talk about impact for a moment,you know, what's the impact when
it's done? Right? And thatthere's intentionally authentic
inclusion in imagery andphotographic storytelling? And
(32:17):
how can you feel theauthenticity when you look at
that image? And, you know, I'mthinking, I mean, we're talking
about lots of images during thisconversation. You know, at Odin,
our interest is in supportingindividuals who have
disabilities into employment. Sothinking about even imagery
within that space and everythingyou've told us, I don't know,
Hilary or Jenny, whether eitherof you want to contribute to, to
(32:39):
thinking about impact, how do weknow we're getting the impact
we're going for? Um,
Jenny Jay (32:45):
I don't know, I'm, I'm just like a big fan of the
community will tell you whenit's done. Right. And they will
also tell you when it's donewrong. And, you know, there are
a lot of folks in differentcommunities across disabilities
who, you know, will say, certaindisabilities don't have enough
racialized representation, likewhere are all the indigenous
(33:07):
folks who have cancer frommercury poisoning and grassy
narrows? And where are they inthe images? When we're talking
about certain, you know, cancersand conditions? Were like, you
know, there are folks who arefrom racialized communities who
might have different survivalrates for different
(33:29):
disabilities. And when you'relooking at the pamphlets, and
you're looking at, like theentire experience, where's the,
like, the imagery and themessaging that says your
experience is different. And wewill be here to support you
through that. But we understandthat it's unfair, that it's
different. So I think in a lotof ways, it's been done a lot
(33:50):
better. More recently. I thinkwhen you have photograph ers
photograph-ers, I think when youhave photographers who are part
of the communities and who areintentional in that way, you can
tell by virtue of who is infront of the camera, and how
(34:11):
like, real that feels versusstaged. And I think the people
who are missing, at least now inthis digital age are loud enough
to say, we could have done thisbetter.
Jennifer Crowson (34:24):
We could have done it better. And Hillary,
would you add anything aroundimpact?
Hilary Gauld (34:30):
Yeah, I think you know, listening to Jenny impact
is closely tied to trust. Itjust is you can't have the
authentic impact without trustfirst. And I think you know,
when people think aboutphotographs online, because
there's so many of them, theyyou know, anyone can do a photo
post anytime. There's nocredentials as to you know,
(34:52):
whether or not you've done youryour homework or your research
or your learning behind but itis so true impact happens when
trust is built between thecommunity and the person that's
going to be relaying thatmessage. And I think that's the
big thing within my creativeindustry in my creative space,
that obviously, my commitment tothat is, is absolutely the top
(35:15):
of my mind in every job that Ido. But I think the industry as
a whole needs to continue tounderstand what their impact is,
and how positively they canimpact or how negatively and
it's so true that community willtell you. And so, you know, of
(35:35):
course, you know, it can be, Iguess, frustrating sometimes,
because, you know, I have heardof experiences that haven't gone
so well, you know, betweenphotographers doing images of
people in these differentspaces. And I just think it is
time for this creator, you know,creators like myself to become
(35:56):
responsible and understand theimpact of this, and how that
will impact the community. Andeven if it impacts the mind of
one person in a negative way,you continue to perpetuate all
that we're trying to actuallychange. So yeah, I love that,
you know, that, that thoughtaround that trust, and it goes a
(36:20):
long way. And it is, that iswhat you're able to get out of
photos, the comfort, the trust,these are people's lives, that
you're that you're portraying,these are their lived
experiences that you are puttingout online. And to me, I do not
take that lightly, I probablywake up, like, like, half my
(36:40):
days, the first thoughts in mymind when I wake up, especially
when the when the series areheading out to media, it is a
little stressful when they'regoing out every day, and I'm
checking the headlines, and whatare they going to send her? And
are they doing it in the rightway. And I understand that, you
know, the media itself isn'talways responsible to these
things, either. But I just knowthat I've done, you know, I am
(37:02):
doing the best that I can tomake sure those messages when we
send them out they are you know,they're authentic, and they are
true to that community. And youjust hope that you're also
helping guide media with whatyou're doing.
Dean Askin (37:16):
You know, however, you touched on a little bit of,
of what I wanted to ask, youknow, when when there isn't that
intentionality? I mean, youknow, what are all the, you
know, negative impacts of that.And, you know, what does the
photography industry andphotographers need to understand
about the impact that they canhave positive or negative? I
(37:37):
mean, I keep thinking about allthat stock photography that's
out there, you know, and I've,you know, tried to, you know,
look for some of it myself, youknow, to illustrate a blog post,
and you go from one site toanother, and you see the same,
you know, contrived images on,you know, five or six different
sites? I mean, what impact doesthat have, when that kind of
(38:00):
imagery? That's not well thoughtout? And intentional, is being
used on websites and blog posts?I mean, what what impact does
that have on community on, youknow, on, on employment and
society in general?
Hilary Gauld (38:16):
Well, I think, number one, it breaks the trust
between that community and thenthe greater community at large.
So I think it just makes thepart or, you know, we consume
pictures, we consume film, weconsume media, all of these
kinds of things. And I thinkthat, you know, it just, it just
doesn't help further thecommunity. It just doesn't, I
(38:37):
just think that's the thing.It's just that simple. It just
doesn't help them. I think thatit can leave people stuck in
what they think about people,and then they treat them based
on what they see. And so I thinkthat, yeah, I think it can
definitely have a negativeimpact. And I, you put yourself
into someone else's experience,and when you know, you're not
(38:58):
being represented properly, itjust doesn't do anything
positive for your own mentalspace. As a person in that
group, it just continues to makeyou feel like you are, you know,
stuck in a look or a box thatsomeone's put you in that you
know, you don't belong in.
Jenny Jay (39:18):
Yeah, I just had a thought. Something that I think
about a lot is, who were thecreators of the stories that
we've been consuming all thistime. And when I say who were
the creators, like, who hadaccess, who has access, and who
now will have access, and if youthink about who, typically in
(39:40):
the last 110 120 years, withcameras typically have been the
storytellers it hasdisproportionately not been the
people who have beenphotographed. And so the impact
is all of these ideas that wehave about different groups of
people. A lot of them has beenreinforced by media narratives
(40:02):
that were never told by thecommunities themselves, right,
you have an entire era of like,World Vision type of marketing,
you have entire, like, eras ofessentially like the stock
imagery, photos that we've seen,like that's been what has been
there for so long. Because thepeople who were featured in the,
(40:26):
in the photographs themselves,like aren't the ones who have
access to DSLRs, and cameras andfilm equipment and the ability
to just pull out and say, like,here's the story, here's the
truth. Here's your authenticversion of what this actually
looks like. And you have so manygatekeepers in these industries
who work inside of thesemarketing spaces and
communication spaces andcampaigns, because you also need
(40:49):
money to further research,right? You need the images to
help further research and impactand what a lot of like, really
great organizations are doing.But because there have been so
many barriers into who gets tobe the one to capture all the
different communities acrossdisability gender, like race,
(41:13):
like folks who aredisproportionately impacted in
this country. You just have,what you see is the world that
we live in now, where you haveto do so much unlearning. And
you have to re write these ideasand stories, you're like, where
did that idea even come from?And you're like, yeah, like
(41:33):
maybe like all the years ofwatching those ads in the 90s.
Like, that's where those ideascame from. And we didn't realize
the subliminal messaging that itwas telling us about, you know,
folks with Down syndrome arealways happy. And you know, you
should be grateful because youdon't have a disability. And,
you know, like all the I thinkof like, the what is it the TV
(41:56):
shows that used to like, centeron like, making entertainment
out of folks with dwarfism,like, you know, like, that's
what our media has been for solong, because it was all made
foreign by people not directlyimpacted. So yeah, those are,
those are the VODs.
Dean Askin (42:16):
I just want to jump in here with a with a follow up,
because you've you've made,you've got me thinking as you
were talking, Jenny, you know,in the introduction to this
episode, you know, I was talkingabout Nick Ute, you know, the
photographer who took thatfamous napalm girl photograph.
And maybe that's one of thereasons why that photograph was
so powerful because he, as thephotographer, was from the
(42:40):
community, he was born inVietnam, his his older brother
was a photographer and waskilled in combat. And that's
what spurred him to want tobecome a photo journalist. And
then ultimately, he had thatphotograph of those Vietnamese
children running away from thenapalm attack
Jenny Jay (42:59):
The level of trust that would have taken for him to
be in that situation in thatplace in that context to take it
in the first place. Like, wouldthat have happened in another
context? Maybe not?
Jennifer Crowson (43:11):
Well, I feel like I could listen, I could
listen to this all afternoon,you know, this is so
interesting, you know, but I'mgonna kind of combine the next
two questions and ask you boththe or either of you, in terms
of, you know, what would be yourmain message to photographers
out there who are thinking abouthow do they portray disability
(43:33):
in their photography? And andthe kind of second part of that
question, for those of us whoare out there looking to use
images that may or may beavailable, you know, for a blog
post or for a business web page?How do we make sure that people
like what's the advice, Isuppose for people in terms of
how to do that a little bit moreauthentically and intentionally,
(43:56):
Hilary or Jenny, whoever wantsto kind of kick us off for both
of this.
Hilary Gauld (44:01):
So I think I would start within my own community,
to really make sure thatphotographers and creators
understand their power and theirimpact. It's not it's never just
a photo store photos, tellstories. And we know that from
the history of photography,there are photos that have lived
(44:22):
on in our history and our, ourin our brain forever. And so I
think that we as a communityhave to understand our power and
impact. And I, I do do Jedi usesthat term on learning. I think
there's a lot of unlearning thatneeds to be done. decentering in
terms of, you know, we are thephotographers, but we're not the
(44:43):
stars. We're not the maincharacters. I think that's
really important on learning,and understanding the community
understanding your impact onthat community. And it's not
just as simple as that, as Jennysaid, I'm going to photograph
some kids with out syndromebecause they're fun to work
with. And I could put it onlineand people are going to comment
(45:04):
and that kind of thing. You needto be intentional, you need to
be intentional because thatcamera is a powerful tool. And
you have the ability to hurt acommunity, if you're not being
authentic, and you're not beingaware of your impact and aware
of how your imagery comes acrossonline, I think that that, to me
is very important. And toreally, if you're going to enter
(45:26):
a space that you do not havethat experience in, you need to
learn about that space, you needto understand, you know, the to
build that trust, we need tounderstand what that community's
goals are, and what things theywhat messages they want to get
out. That's what makes it apowerful space, when that comes
together. And I do believe thereneeds to be more education, more
(45:50):
unlearning, there needs to bemore awareness by creators in
general, in that space. And Ithink once you understand that,
you will never unsee that,again, it doesn't matter what
client you are with, you will belooking for all those cues. And
it may be as simple as youunderstand that the person
standing in front of you hasanxiety, and that there's
(46:13):
something that could beunderneath that or there's a
there, they're standing in acertain way that you're like,
there's something more going onhere, you become a lot more
intuitive, I think, I know,that's something that's always
come very naturally to me withmy with who I'm working with as
an intuitiveness in terms of,you know, people's comfort or
things they may be thinking orthey a lot of past experience
(46:36):
will come up for people inphotos, it can be traumatic for
some people. So depending on,you know, things people have
said to them about how they lookin photos over the years, those
kind of things. So I think italso helps to make you more
intuitive. And, yeah, becausethe last thing you want is
someone to leave and feel as ifyou know, you've either fed a
(46:58):
stereotype or you've saidsomething to them, that feels
uncomfortable. But obviously,everyone's going to not always
get it right. But I think themost important thing is that
you're learning and you aretrying to get it right.
Jennifer Crowson (47:13):
Fantastic. Thank you, Jenny, did you want
to add to that?
Jenny Jay (47:16):
Um, I was just gonna say, in the documentary film
world, when you're applying forgrants, and doing the process,
something that a lot of placesask you for is an impact
statement. It's one of the veryfew industries that asks for, do
you understand the impact ofyour work? And what will it be?
Or what are you hoping that itwill be? And I think that needs
(47:37):
to extend to documentary work asa whole, including photography.
And if we ask that question ofourselves, as creators,
documenting people, real livedexperiences, I think that would
change so much of like, the thework that we see exist now.
Dean Askin (47:58):
So many powerful photographic insights from both
of you. You know, we've we've,you shared a lot of insights
we've talked about a lot. Imean, just before we wrap things
up, is there anything we haven'ttalked about that you think is
important dimension? I alwayshave to ask that question.
That's always the the theessential question to ask at the
(48:19):
at the end of every podcast.
Hilary Gauld (48:23):
I think that this is honestly the beginning of the
conversation. I feel like thereis, as Jenny said, like, I could
honestly talk all day about thisas well. It is the beginning of
the conversation. I don't evenfeel within my own industry.
Other photographers are talkingamongst themselves about impact.
And how like Jenny said, howthey're positioning people in
(48:45):
photos and what story that tellsand, and those kinds of thing. I
think that yeah, I just feellike this is actually the
beginning of this conversation.Jenny, any thoughts?
Jenny Jay (48:55):
In agreement with Hillary? And I think if there is
one question I can leave withother photographers who want to
do this work, ask yourself whosegaze is it for? And that usually
answers a lot of question aboutwhy you're doing a project in
the first place.
Jennifer Crowson (49:12):
Incredible, ou know, and I think Hilary to pick
up on what you said, and Jenny,I hope this is the beginning of
this conversation, you know,because I'm finding it really
interesting and reallyinsightful as somebody who who
doesn't come from thephotographic world and, but is
somebody who is reallyinterested in making sure that
(49:32):
the work that I do is inclusiveand authentic. So I really
appreciate this and, and thisidea of how images, they're not
just they're never just aphotograph, I was really taken
by, by that comment. They're notthere. They're a very powerful
tool. They're a tool that canshift and create narrative, you
know, as Dean has talked about,in terms of some of the
photographer's that he's pulledon, you know, in terms of this
(49:53):
conversation, and, and obviouslywe are we are here to kind of
shift that narrative about howwe think about it. People who
have disabilities and thecontributions they can make to
their communities andemployment. So I really have
really appreciated thisconversation and I want to thank
you both for coming on the show,and giving us your perspective
on how to make disability.Photography inclusive. I'm
(50:17):
Jennifer Crossan, and once againthird time this season. It's
been fun and great co hostingwith you, Dean.
Dean Askin (50:23):
Well, I saw your LinkedIn post about how you were
really starting to enjoy cohosting the show. I want to
thank you again for sitting infor jet for this episode, then a
great one, and Episode 21 andEpisode 20. By the way, be sure
to catch those two episodes. Ifyou haven't yet listeners,
Episode 21, about disabilityinclusion on university
(50:44):
campuses, and Episode 20, aboutableism in the workplace. Those
were both great conversationsJennifer and I had with our
guests and this has been anothergreat conversation as well. So
thank you for me as well toHilary and Jenny, for coming on
the show.
Jennifer Crowson (51:00):
Next episode is another segment of our making
the journey series, isn't it?Dean?
Dean Askin (51:06):
That's right, Jennifer, instalment number two
of the occasional series welaunched last year during
National Disability EmploymentAwareness Month. co host Pawrnaa
Perinpanayagam and I will betalking with a small-business
owner who's just starting thedisability-inclusive hiring
journey. Surveys have shown thatover half the small businesses
in Canada have never hiredsomeone who has a disability.
(51:27):
That's episode 25, coming laterthis month on July 23.
Jennifer Crowson (51:31):
And that's it for this episode of You Can't
Spell Inclusion Without a D. Andfor me this season. Once again,
I'm Jennifer Crowson.
Dean Askin (51:39):
And I'm Dean Askin Thanks again for listening
wherever, whenever and onwhatever podcast app you're
listening from. Join us eachepisode as we have insightful
conversations like thisphotographic one, and explored
disability inclusion in businessand in our communities. From all
the angles You Can't SpellInclusion without a D is
(52:01):
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network. All rightsreserved. Our podcast production
team, Executive Producer andHost Jeannette Campbell Producer
Sue Dafoe Associate Producer andHost Dean Askin audio editing
and production by Dean Askin.Our podcast theme is last summer
(52:21):
by Ikksen. If you have feedbackor comments about an episode,
contact us at info atodenetwork.com. That's
info@odnetwork.com. Join us eachepisode for insights from expert
guests as we explore the powerof inclusion, the business
benefits of inclusive hiring andwhy disability is an important
part of the Diversity Equity andInclusion conversation. Listen
(52:45):
to You Can't Spell InclusionWithout a D on Podbean or
wherever you find your favouritepodcasts.
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