November 5, 2024 • 47 mins
You can't explore intersectionality without talking about disability among Canada's Aboriginal people — the Inuit and First Nations.
An estimated 30% of Canada’s Indigenous population, or 420,000 people, live with a disability or functional limitation.
So just what is the perception and definition of disability in the Inuit and First Nation cultures and communities? How much of a role does the British colonial history of Canada play in the intersectionality of disability in Indigenous communities and cultures? What challenges around employment barriers and disability inclusion are unique?
All of this is a complex, sometimes sensitive topic with many nuances.
To help us better understand disability in the First Nations and Inuit communities, our two guests provide some deep insights into all of this:
- Romaine Peters, a Family Disability Support Worker on Walpole Island First Nation, in Southwestern Ontario
- Lisa Spencer, the Communications Manager for the NDMS, the only cross-disability society in Nunavut, in Canada’s Far North
SHOW NOTES
- Episode 29 transcript (PDF)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Dean,
Dean Askin (00:03):
You Can't Spell Inclusion Qithout a D, the
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeannette Campbell and
Dean Askin.
(00:26):
Hello there, and welcome to theshow. This is episode 29 of you
can't spell inclusion without aD, part two in our three part
series on intersectionality anddisability that's winding up our
2024 season, our fifth season,by the way, if perhaps you're
just tuning into the show forthe first time with this
episode, Hi there. I'm DeanAskin intersectionality and
(00:48):
disability is a broad topic forthis series. We've honed in on
looking at disability in threecommunities. If you caught part
one that was an insightfulconversation about disability in
the LGBTQ 2s plus community.
Jeannette Campbell (01:03):
And hello, I'm Jeanette Campbell this
episode. And next, we're findingout about disability in a couple
of different cultures that makeup the many cultural communities
in the Canadian mosaic. Youcan't explore this
intersectionality withouttalking about disability among
Canada's Aboriginal people orInuit and First Nations, the
(01:24):
Statistics Canada 2022 Canadiansurvey on disability showed that
27% of Canadians aged 15 andolder have a disability. In our
research for this episode, wefound a fact sheet on
accessibility published by thenative Women's Association of
Canada that included thisstatistic, an estimated 30% of
(01:47):
Canada's indigenous population,or 420,000
people, live with a disabilityor a functional limitation. Now
for clarity, here, indigenous isthe all encompassing term for
the native peoples of thiscountry, the First Nations, the
Inuit, or first peoples and theMetis, and how indigenous people
(02:08):
define and perceive disabilityin their communities is, to say
the least, not the same as howit's defined and perceived by
non Indigenous people in Canada.Keep listening, we're going to
find out about that.
Dean Askin (02:23):
So just what is the perception and definition of
disability in the Inuit andFirst Nation cultures and
communities? How much of a roledoes the British colonial
history of Canada play in theintersectionality of disability
in indigenous communities andcultures? What challenges around
employment barriers anddisability inclusion are unique.
(02:45):
All of this is a complex,sometimes sensitive topic with
many nuances to help us betterunderstand disability in the
First Nations and Inuitcommunities. We're joined by
romaine, Peters and LisaSpencer. For the last 21 years,
Romaine has been a familysupport worker at the family
place of learning on WalpoleIsland, First Nation in
(03:06):
southwestern Ontario. Sherecently transitioned into the
position of family DisabilitySupport Worker.
Jeannette Campbell (03:13):
Walpole Island, by the way, is on the
border of our Canadian provinceof Ontario and the US state of
Michigan. It's at the mouth ofthe St Clair River on Lake St
Clair. Joining us from easternCanada in the Maritimes, is Lisa
Spencer. She's thecommunications manager for the
Nunavut disabilities, Martinezquarti society, or NDMS. The
(03:38):
NDMS is based way up in IqaluitNunavut in Canada's far north,
but Lisa works remotely fromlower Sackville Nova Scotia on
the east coast of Canada. Lisahas been with the NDMS Since
2018 in various roles includingresearch casework and program
management. And before that, shewas a professor at Seneca
Polytechnic in Toronto.
(04:00):
The NDMS is the only crossdisability society in Nunavut.
It developed out of grassrootscommunity action back in 1999
and its mission, this from theNDMS website, is to achieve
independence, self determinationand full citizenship for all
(04:20):
Nunavut living with disability,Romaine and Lisa, thank you for
joining us to help us understandthe complex nuances of
disability in the First Nationsand Inuit communities. And
welcome to you can't spellinclusion without a D.
Romaine Peters (04:38):
Thank you. Thank you for having us? Yes,
Jeannette Campbell (04:42):
well, we're going to have a great
conversation, and I'm reallylooking forward to this. I'm
really looking forward tolearning and we're going to jump
right into the conversation witha series of questions. So
romaine, I'm going to come toyou first with this.
Question, what is the perceptionof or the attitude towards
(05:04):
disability in the first nationor Aboriginal or Inuit
communities? How nuanced is it?
Romaine Peters (05:06):
I think, within speaking from our community is
when you know disability is isin our community, but it's not
very well aware of so somecommunitymembers, you know, it's
(05:27):
just accepted in our community.So allowing that to be, you
know, if one of our families areidentified, or a person or
community members identifiedwith a disability, is we try to
work with that family as much aswe can and give it the best
supports that we can in thecommunity, but in understanding
for thinking about our you know,I think just more awareness
(05:50):
needs to be there in our owncommunities, more awareness so
that people will have betterunderstandings of our
community members that do have aDisability, which I actually say
is actually a beautifuldifference, right? So, you know,
thinking about that, you know,we do have lots of people that
do have disabilities, that areidentified, even due to maybe
(06:15):
just self awareness, even, Ithink,
Lisa Spencer (06:20):
and Lisa, what about what about you? How would
you answer that question? Well,first and foremost, I'd like to
acknowledge that I am not Inuitmyself. I am a colonial settler.
I do work for an Inuit ledorganization, and part of the
reason why I am therepresentation today is because
the bandwidth can be difficultup north, and we recently, as an
(06:42):
organization, completed aresearch study through
accessibility Canada where weinterviewed 500
over 500 participants about thisvery topic. So the timing is
phenomenal. So I can't speak forall Inuit. They can discuss what
we have heard from participants,as well as through my work with
(07:04):
the communities and throughcasework. But ultimately,
the issue with disability isit's a colonial word. It is a
label that is enforced on peoplethat don't necessarily want to
identify with it.
It is associated with beingunable or incapable, and so
oftentimes, people who wouldmedically or functionally
(07:28):
qualify as having a disabilitywould refrain from identifying
with that term. It's heavilystigmatized in the north,
particularly because not onlywith the the incapable kind of
affiliation, but also access toresources would and supports
would require, most often, thatpeople move away from their
(07:49):
homelands. So there's ahesitancy to acknowledge
disability, even when, evenwhen, personally, there is an
acknowledgement of it. The otherissue too is that there's a
complicated kind of differencebetween the elder understanding
of disability and the youthcoming in with access to social
(08:12):
media and more kind ofwesternized culture. So there is
a little bit of a shift that'shappening. But ultimately, the
idea is that disability is ameans to an end. People will
identify with it just as a toolto get the resources support or
funding that the governmentsrequire.
Dean Askin (08:33):
Wow. And you know, in the first part of this
series, in Episode 28 and wekind of mentioned it in the
intro. We had a really goodconversation with a couple of
researchers talking about, youknow, disability in the LGBTQ
two plus 2s plus community, andthey said that within that
community there, they found thatthere's many people who have a
(08:55):
disability who are struggling tofit in, to to it when it's
already marginalized anddiscriminated against. Are there
similar issues in, you know, theFirst Nations and the Inuit
communities? I mean, how wouldeach of you describe the
inclusiveness of your respectivecommunities? I know Romaine you
mentioned, sometimes there's akind of a lack of awareness, but
(09:17):
overall, how would you describethe inclusiveness when I think
about inclusiveness in ourcommunity, is it's, you know,
stigmatized still, because thosecolonial behaviors still come in
our communities, even in ourschools. So I think a lot of
times is, How would I describeinclusiveness? And you know, the
(09:38):
perspective of our community is,we know that it's there. We do
have supports in our owncommunity, and we actually do
have a group that is calledSnap, which is like our special
needs action partners, but we'veactually renamed it, and I'm not
quite on how you say the nameyet, but we're will be host.
Romaine Peters (10:00):
Thing a conference next Friday, which
I'm actually a guest speaker in.So I'm, you know, it's about
getting that awareness out abouthow we can support our
community. And I think, for youknow, it's being able to
just learn more awareness. Ithink in our community is where
(10:20):
it's going to be more inclusive,and that's my part, is being
able to spread that awareness atour conference. And you know,
being able to support ourfamilies is one of our biggest
things here.
Lisa Spencer (10:31):
Lisa, what about up north in the in in the Inuit
community? Yeah, it's a littlebit of a two pronged approach,
because the stigma is associatedwith the label, not necessarily
the person. So generally, peopleare accepted for who they are
and what they bring to theircommunities. So everybody has
something that they cancontribute. But as soon as
somebody identifies with thelabel, the label of disability,
(10:54):
then there is a bit of anattitude shift in terms of what
it is that they're capable ofdoing, and the stigma attached
to that. But you know, we dohave LGBTQIA plus participants
in our study as well, whomentioned that inter
intersectional oppression anddiscrimination, but most often
(11:14):
it is in relation to access tosupports, barriers to inclusion,
societal barriers resulting fromcolonialism, so things like
forced settlements, income andtaxation, access to health care.
It's less about the socialaspect.
Jeannette Campbell (11:34):
And you know,
both of you are bringing uppoints really that relate to
sort of the next area ofquestion that I had, but I do
want to just ask a littlequestion this report, Lisa, that
that you've just completed thisresearch, is that something
that's going to be made public?Yes, so we just submitted to our
(11:57):
funder, we're hoping to have itpublished later on in the fall.
Lisa Spencer (12:02):
Yeah, so stay tuned for that.
Jeannette Campbell (12:05):
Okay, that's wonderful. I mean, I know that I
would really appreciate beingable to read that research
report and learn from that, andalso I know that Dean has the
ability to do things like uploadthings into the show notes. So
by the time this airs, if it'sbeen released, then this could
be something that would be aresource for people to learn
(12:26):
more about and to dig a littlebit deeper as well. So that
would be great. I just didn'twant to lose that thought.
So, you know, you're both,you've both kind of raised some
points around,
around the role that colonialhistory can play
in the colonial history ofCanada is played in
(12:51):
in the conversation arounddisability, even you're talking
about the introduction of theword or the language and the
connotations behind it. So youknow, on the website
the First Nations HealthAuthority in BC said that the
word disability is a colonialand social construct that
implies someone cannot dosomething so very similar what
(13:13):
you've been saying, Lisa, andthat it's very different from
how First Nations and Aboriginalpeople define disability and
from how they perceive peoplewho have a disability in their
communities. So that's a quotefrom the First Nations Health
Authority. So for both of you,either of you, can chime in
(13:33):
first. You know, what are yourthoughts about that kind of
statement, and what can what canwe learn from that? Go ahead.
Lisa,
Lisa Spencer (13:42):
so for from our perspective, what we found out
is that the main sticking pointis the label itself. So
oftentimes, to access supportsor funding, you need to identify
as having a disability, whichmakes it difficult for us as an
organization, even to to providethat support and advocacy. So we
tend to use were terms like,barriers to participation in
(14:06):
community.
The whole concept of needing adiagnosis is discussed in many
different disability you know,communities. So it's in line
with that disclosure, you know,dialog,
but in terms of the colonialhistory of Canada, you know,
(14:26):
when it comes to residentialschools and institutionalization
and forced settlements that hasled to mental health
difficulties, that has led todifficulty in, you know,
accessing culture and languageand a sense of self and
community and those importantkinship bonds. And it also leads
to, you know, what is sociallyconsidered inappropriate coping
(14:51):
mechanisms, which underdifferent DSM quantifiers or
even the Nunavut Human RightsAct, substance use is under that
umbrella.
Of disability. So, yes, it'sactually something that is
exacerbated by colonialism. Andyou know, when we consider the
(15:13):
forced settlement for forintimate who were, you know,
nomadic, there's now anexpectation for them to stay in
one place, and that limits theiraccess to cultural practices.
But the remoteness and of theArctic tundra has also led to
like inaccessible housing,education, employment rates, all
(15:35):
social determinants of health,which could also exacerbate
disability
Jeannette Campbell (15:42):
and romaine, thank you for that. Lisa
romaine, you know, at thebeginning of this conversation,
you use the term a beautifuldifference
Romaine Peters (15:50):
and and so what are your What are your thoughts
on on this discussion? Well,when I think about, you know,
the colonial and socialconstruct, you know, in regards
to that word, like thedisability, word itself is, you
know, it, from my perspective,is, I take it as you know that
(16:11):
I'm unable to do something. So Ithink that word, that colonial
word itself, has already put uplike a barrier on it. So it's
like you're only allowed to dothis in this box. So for me, is
like thinking about,
I think about my daughter,because how my daughter learns,
(16:32):
and with her is she was, youknow, she did different
testings, psycho educationaltestings, and she was labeled
under different terms so thatshe could have an individual
plan like IEP right for school.Okay, so thinking about that
was, you know, she learnsdifferently, so that's why I say
(16:54):
beautiful differences as well,too. And I've actually just
learned that from an FASD
workshop on Monday. So again,bringing that to this
conversation as well too,because my daughter is a very
beautiful person, but she learnsdifferent, right? So thinking
about, you know, for Colonial,thinking about education is that
(17:16):
she wants to learn as much asshe can, but she learns through
hands. So she's a hands onlearner, where, if you were to
put a piece of paper in front ofher, Nope, it's like blank for
her. So I got to think about itin a perspective of us as
indigenous people. Is,
what was the history behind thecolonialness is, you know, the
(17:41):
piece of paper, right? That'sone of the biggest things and
triggers for us is a piece ofpaper, because it has brought in
so much trauma from signingpapers, treaties, all those
different things. So again, whenour brain is wired that way is
so when you bring that piece ofpaper, it's hard for us to read,
(18:03):
because of the colonial trauma,right? So the history behind it,
the intergenerational traumathat has happened and come along
with that. So being able to justthink about the word disability
itself is that's already inwired in us because of that
intergenerational trauma. Sowhen we think about the word
disability, it actually feelslike
(18:26):
we're unable to do things, butwe're very capable of doing a
lot of different things, right?So again, yes, that's colonial
history. Is understanding thatyou know the word disability
itself is going to put a labelagain. We're, you know, putting
us in different things. There isno inclusion when you put that
(18:48):
label on it. So how are we goingto be able to incorporate, you
know, with the person that has abeautiful difference?
How are we going to include themthat way and be able to get away
from the word disability, evenitself. So I think that's one of
our biggest challenges right nowin our communities, because,
again, we've learned behaviorsfrom many, many years of, you
(19:12):
know, colonial learnedbehaviors. How are we going to
be able to separate that? Ithink the inclusion part itself
is, you know, we're justunderstanding that we're all
beings. We're all beings here ofEarth, and trying to, you know,
go with the flow of the day.
Dean Askin (19:28):
Yeah, I
want to jump in here for aminute. You know, romaine,
you've sort of touched on what Iwant, what I want to to ask you
about here. I mean,
for each of you in yourexperience, you know, supporting
your communities. What are youfinding are the biggest
challenges for First Nations?And, you know, Inuit people who
(19:49):
have a disability, and you know,does our colonial history play a
role in in all of that, too?Whoever wants to jump in first,
I'll jump.
Romaine Peters (20:00):
And it does play a huge role, because I think of
the extra supports that ourfamilies need in being able to
get the services that they need.Like I said, a lot of times, is
some are undiagnosed, with alabel, again, with whatever
challenges that they have, andit's the whole overall circle of
(20:23):
services that they might need,like, you know, thinking about
supports in school, thinkingabout, you know, maybe somebody
doesn't have the capability tobe able to even read, so rather
than do that. But they're very,very talented in a lot of
different areas, right? So, youknow, it's, there's lots and
lots could be lots oflimitations. So I think, you
(20:46):
know, overall is, you know,there's so many things in our
communities that still need alot more work. And also teaming
up with the ones off, you know,in the mainland, you know,
teaming up that way to be ableto continue to bring those
supports and work together,because once we start working
together, things will be moresuccessful.
Lisa Spencer (21:10):
Lisa, yeah, so in line with what Rome is saying,
the support system, in and ofitself, is colonial, and a lot
of the frontline workers in inNunavut are are white
Southerners. So, you know, thereis a movement to try to bring
more empowerment for Inuit, tocome up and and be those
(21:32):
frontline workers. But at thesame time, there's inequities in
education, there's inequities inhousing and income stability
that lends itself to difficultyin recruitment and retaining,
you know, and even if we didprovide that extra support for
staff to to be culturallyresponsive, to be Inuit
(21:53):
specifically, there is, does itnecessarily meet the need
disability Is, is growing,especially when you consider the
aging population of elders. Sothere that is one aspect of it.
The other piece is, you know,anything that requires medical
intervention or specialty issomething that is usually
(22:14):
provided down south in theprovinces. So that, obviously,
is very triggering for people tobe really relocated, either
permanently or temporarily, toaccess supports. And another
issue too, that we find issomething that Canada likes to
do is to kind of do this panindigeneity aspect that, like
all First Nation groups, are thesame, all Metis Inuit. You know
(22:40):
that there is this similarityacross the board. So when we
talk about disability and wetalk about culture, you know,
there's discussions indisability community about the
nuances between having, youknow, mental illness versus a
physical limitation, versuschronic ill. You know, something
along those lines. There arenuances between cultures as
(23:01):
well. So the supports that workfor one area might not work for
another, even down to creation,stories are very different. So
having you know blanketapproaches or evidence based
practices that that use panindigeneity approaches is not
culturally responsive either.
Jeannette Campbell (23:21):
You know that
that, I think that's a reallyimportant discussion to have,
because, you know, within whenwe look at the classification of
disability and we look at peoplewho are identified or who
identify as a person who has adisability, there's been so much
(23:41):
conversation about, you know,you know, uh, you know somebody
who has autism as an example.Well, now you know one person
who has autism. You don't knowautism hidden. You know the
intellectual disability,developmental disability,
mobility issues, episodic
(24:01):
disabilities, sensorydisability, like vision or
hearing impairment, isexperienced so incredibly
differently by every singleperson that there is this pan
disability. But how do youactually create solutions when
every experience is soindividualized? So I think
welcoming this part of theconversation, and looking at it
(24:22):
from a cultural perspective aswell is really important. And
you know, so we know that,
like, the employment rate willkind of dive a little bit into
employment. Specifically, theemployment rate for people who
have a disability is is up inthis country for the first time
in a while, and we're talkingabout people who are aged 15 to
(24:45):
64 so not capturing sort of theelder population who are also
adding to the to the percentageof people who have a disability.
So right now, disabilityemployment rate is sitting
around 65
Sent used to be around 59% for along time. But we we know at
(25:06):
Odin, we know, and the both ofyou are well aware of this too,
that this, the equitableemployment journey, is just full
of challenges. There's so manybarriers for people who have a
disability. So what we'rewondering is, can we discuss how
much is this potentiallymagnified in First Nation and
(25:26):
Inuit communities like what?What employment barriers are
people facing that perhapspeople who have a disability,
that are on romaine, I believeyou said, the mainland, that are
mainland, who are southerners
from or from other parts ofCanadian society, maybe they're
not experiencing these samebarriers. I don't know, Lisa, do
(25:48):
you or romaine, do you want totake that first? I'll go on it.
I think about, I think, forthat, is that the
Romaine Peters (25:57):
the support systems here in our own
community is, you know, so ifwe're trying to support somebody
that has a disability withemployment, is,
are they properly trained,right? So, are they properly
trained to be able to,sometimes, we're going to have
to be acting as a case managereven, you know, it's that extra
(26:18):
support for that person to beable to, you know, keep an eye
on, you know, their overallwork. You know, what extra
supports do they need working inthe work environment? What are
they what are theircapabilities? So again, it all
has to come back to that casemanagement. For that person, are
they going to be trained in thatas well, too? Because, you know,
depending on that person'sbeautiful difference. What are
(26:42):
they going to be able to helpsupport that person? Because
it's not going to be probablyjust one person. It's going to
be just one worker that's goingto probably be a case manager
of, let's say even five people,so that they're checking in on
these five people. So again,it's about that extra support.
We don't have those kind ofsupports here. So how is that
(27:04):
going to look? Because a lot oftimes is like in our surrounding
communities, we did have
the Community Living Programthat did support those kind of
things to help those ones thatwere working or that were with
support services auditedCommunity Living, let's say, in
Wallaceburg, our next town, andthey were able to help them
(27:27):
with, like, simple jobs andstuff. We don't have that kind
of services in our own communityhere. How are we going to get
that here again, it's a wholebigger picture. It's not just
when I think about, you know,
our special needs, for ourchildren, but it's also for the
adults as well too, because theystill need that extra support.
(27:47):
And even thinking about,
what do you call it, socialworkers? You know, social
workers, are they going to beable to be capable, to be able
to handle those there's notactually a service in our
community that does handle that.So I think that it's one of the
biggest barriers in the FirstNation here.
Lisa Spencer (28:05):
And if I may say, Yeah, please, that's okay for
us. You know, first and foremoststatistics we do, you know, take
with a grain of salt, simplybecause a lot of them require
diagnostic disclosure andidentifying with the label. So
there are a number of people whodo have a disability, but would
not indicate that on the census.So it's hard to say just how
(28:29):
accurate those statistics are.It could be a greater sample,
but it's also just a briefsnapshot in time. So you know
when, when we're looking atemployment rates, how long is
that person employed for?Oftentimes it's short term
employment, or, you know, verylow level income, which requires
(28:53):
a lot more money for cost ofliving purposes. So it's hard to
say if it's sustainable.
Many people
don't go for full timeemployment because they rely on
social assistance, and to behired full time means losing
that social safety net so thatcan affect their access to
(29:16):
housing, that can affect theiraccess to funding to all these
other social supports, it's acascading effect. So they either
make enough money to cover thecost of all of those other
factors, or they don't makeenough money for for living. And
that goes back to relying onsocial assistance. So yeah,
(29:39):
it's, it's a little bitdifferent. It's also this idea
of employment and careers iscolonial as well. So what is
work? Right? A lot of Inuitpeople, or Inuit, sorry, will
work for what they need in themoment, you know, not, not
considering the long termeffects of, you know, a
capitalist.
(30:00):
Economy that's very low on theirpriority. So long term
employment is not necessarilycaptured either.
Jeannette Campbell (30:09):
And you know, that's something I think
that would be,
for me, that's reallyinteresting to understand that
concept and get that thisconcept of what is work, and
working for the now who are notnecessarily fitting into the
construct of capitalistdefinitions of work. So that's
(30:33):
really interesting. And Dean, Iknow you've got a question, but
I do want to just come back toRomaine for one minute, because
when, when you were talkingabout some of those barriers
that you know, so the thesupports, maybe that aren't
available on site, but you know,in in your area, so in Walpole,
you've been partnering withWallaceburg and other community
(30:55):
living organizations. So haveyou started to experience any
sort of
Romaine Peters (31:03):
impacts from the employment transformation system
that the community livingorganizations have been going
through, where some of them areshuttering their employment
services. Has had, have youstarted to have those
discussions to figure out, Whereare you going to be able to
access some of these additionalsupports if they're not
(31:24):
available? Um, I really can'tanswer on that, because I'm just
coming new into this position inregards to the Disability
Support Worker. But I think for,you know, for our community, is
it's, it's, it's just astruggle. Because I think that,
you know, a lot of times, iswhen we're trying to support
people in the employment thing,in the employment, you know,
(31:48):
services through employment andtraining here.
You know, we do have people thatthey help, but sometimes we have
people that come in withunidentified
structures. So that's where itmight lead into, let's say I'm
showing up to work late, or, youknow, I'm, you know, I didn't
make it in today because of someother, you know, challenge that
(32:13):
I was dealing with before. Soagain, it there is those things
that play a big, huge impact is,you know, the unidentified even
again, structure wise, becausethey don't want to be labeled,
you know, even just, you know,acknowledging it for themselves,
even you know, the selfawareness itself too. I think
(32:34):
that's one of our biggeststruggles here in our community.
Jeannette Campbell (32:37):
Thank you.
Dean Askin (32:39):
You know, from, from everything that Romaine and Lisa
is saying here, it sounds likesomething's got to give here,
something's got to change. So Iwant you to put your thinking
caps on for a minute. I mean,
is there one thing or maybe oneor two things, what do you think
needs to change the most, tobreak down all the systemic
barriers that are faced by FirstNations and Inuit people who
(33:03):
have a disability.
Lisa, I can see the wheels going
Lisa Spencer (33:08):
well, yeah. So I can think of two things. Number
one is income security thatleads to access to housing,
education, employment, foodsecurity, all of those things
that can exacerbate disabilityincome security is definitely
important, and
in a similar vein, access tofunding. So when you think about
(33:31):
again, we have already discussedRomaine and I the nuances with
that disability label. You know,to access things like the
disability tax credit, one needsto go through that colonial
practice of paperwork to getthat, you know, certification
and that stamp of approval, toeven get that supplemental
boost, that financial boost withincome assistance as well. So I
(33:52):
guess they're kind of, you know,it's the horse before the
carriage, I guess. Butultimately, I think what needs
to happen is the definitionneeds to be more inclusive of
Indigenous ways of knowing. Youknow, how can somebody access
services, supports and fundingby having a disability in a in a
(34:13):
way that resonates with them?
Dean Askin (34:16):
Yes, definitely. Romaine. What do you think?
Well, I think,
Romaine Peters (34:20):
I think for that is the biggest part is the label
itself. Because once you putthat label on, it is because now
you are being put in thissection of, you know, this box
over here, because of yourchallenges that you have, you
know, your beautiful differencethat you have. So I think that's
one of the biggest things incommunity right now, is if you
(34:43):
are identified with adisability, is you are put into
a category. And I think for howis that going to be a big thing
for our community, is justawareness, like because an
understanding is one of thebiggest things we do.
Still, you know, have a lot ofthose colonial learned behaviors
that we put those labels on, andif, soon as you put that word
(35:07):
disability on, it is like weneed to get away from that word,
especially so when I thinkabout, you know,
people that are labeled withthat disability of whatever it
is, their challenge is, thenagain, they're put in that
little box. How are we going todo that? We got to become, you
know, full circle here, and justunderstand that, you know, they
(35:30):
have a difference. That's all itis.
Jeannette Campbell (35:33):
And you know, you've kind of already
touched on this as well, butwant to just sort of go in a
little bit more.
You talked about Romainespecifically. You talked about
some of the challenges that arethat are facing people around
that access to like actuallyhaving the services available
(35:53):
for support and Lisa, you talkedabout some of the that the
holistic experience for people,all of the other challenges that
might be around them. So whenyou think of
the challenges supporting jobseekers in your communities who
have a disability, what what aresome of those major challenges?
(36:15):
How difficult is that of a jobfor people?
Lisa Spencer (36:19):
It's honestly connecting with the people who
could benefit from the servicesand supports. You know, there
are some, you know, some thingsthat we need to advocate for,
for employer understandings, butit's also, you know, for the the
populations that that we supportto to let them know that what
(36:39):
we're offering applies to themas well, regardless of how they
identify. So I agree withRomaine. It's awareness, but
it's awareness. It's a bidirectional awareness. It's not
just about how to support peoplewith disabilities, but it's also
how to help others, you know,create that understanding of
autonomy, of selfidentification, and, you know,
(37:03):
being able to ask for help andmove forward collaboratively,
instead of enforcing aparticular way of
job seeking and employment andaccommodations. Another aspect,
too, is cultural accommodations.So in Nunavut, you know, when
the weather is good, peopledon't want to work. You want to
get out there and hunt and be onthe land and and do your fishing
(37:26):
and or whatever the means, youknow, whatever it is that
interests them in the moment.And that doesn't necessarily
jive with it. The nine to fiveof the colonial work day
Romaine Peters (37:37):
and romaine what about what about you? I think
for understanding is one of thebiggest things, like I said, is,
you know, how, how can we becomemore aware of that in working
within our own community likehere, if, if somebody is usually
identified in our own community,it's, it's more or less like,
(37:59):
yeah, we know there's somethingthere. But how are we going to
continue supporting this person?So I think, you know, being able
to just do that in our owndynamics. Again, it's about
awareness, even ourunderstanding with our employer
itself, our employee.
Lisa Spencer (38:17):
You know, it's very colonialized, being able to
trying to work within, you know,different aspects, because
that's just the way it'sstructured. You know, we've been
working this way for how manyyears now, under, you know,
those colonial structures, andhow can we, I always say, how
are we going to be, you know, alittle bit bendable. Because,
(38:39):
you know, as indigenous people,we are, you know, blades of
sweet grass and they're verybendable. So how are we going to
be able to be flexible withinour own First Nations?
Dean Askin (38:50):
You know, despite the challenges faced by people
in your respective communitieswith a disability, and the
challenges for both of you indoing your jobs to support them.
What's the most rewarding thingabout what you do? I can answer
that. The challenges are thesystem and the rewards are the
people,
Romaine Peters (39:12):
exactly the relationships that you build
within community. Just a littletidbit on me. I'm known as
Auntie Rowe in a community, sothat's one of the biggest
things, is because, as an auntiein your community, is that
you've taken on that role asbeing that extended family
member, and I might not even berelated to, you know, that
family in through bloodline, youknow? So again, it's being able
(39:35):
to have those relationshipsbuilt. And yeah, I agree with
Lisa, too.
Jeannette Campbell (39:40):
Wow. Yeah, it's the it's the people, yeah,
that's that, that is, that isthe reward, that's,
you know. So we're getting closeto the end of this podcast, so
I'm going to ask, what's the,what's the main thing that,
you know? I.
(40:00):
Sure that people from outsidethe First Nations and Inuit
communities, those of us who arenon Indigenous,
whether they have a disabilityor not, what do you think is the
single most important thing thatyou want people to take away
from this conversation? Like,what's your what's your main
(40:21):
message, if I may,
Lisa Spencer (40:24):
sorry, remember, okay, I was gonna say disability
as a label is new, butdisability in terms of
functional, difficult ordifferences, sorry is not new.
So Inuit have come across those,those nuances since time
immemorial. What has changed ishow they're forced to support
(40:46):
those differences. So when wethink about, you know, our
infrastructure for socialsupports, we do it in a certain
way, but we're imposing thosemethods, whereas Inuit have
found their own culturallyresponsive ways to support
people with disabilities. Airquotes, you know, so who's to
(41:07):
say that our way is best?
Dean Askin (41:11):
I agree. I think for I think overall, is building
those relationships. It's aboutworking together and once you
have that relationship built,you know, that's a great support
system right there. And it'sabout networking with other
programs, other networks, youknow, outside communities. How
can we all come together to beable to support these ones that
(41:35):
do need that extra support? Youknow, you've, you've both made a
lot of really great points aboutall the nuances and all the
things that those, those of uswho are non Indigenous, should
be aware of. And I guess we'reat the end of the more or less
we're at the end of the shownow. And it I got to ask my
trademark question. You know,we've covered a lot, but have we
(41:58):
covered all the essentials? Imean, is there anything that we
haven't talked about over thelast half hour or so that you
think is important to mentionbefore we wrap it up
Lisa Spencer (42:07):
for myself? I think it's really important to
come back to the idea of cocreation and collaboration. You
know, when we think about socialsupports and how we go about
doing things, you know we needto critically analyze and
reflect, is this the mosteffective way to do it, the most
respectful way to do it? Havethose conversations, be curious,
(42:29):
and put aside all assumptionsthat you know evidence based
practices are ideal, becauseevidence based practices take
root in a lot of colonialism aswell.
Romaine Peters (42:41):
I think, for you know, for myself, here is really
thinking about, how can wesupport
those that are have challenges?Is being able to make sure that
you know that we do have thephysical, emotional, mental and
spirituality of theseindividuals at the best
interest, and sometimes we needto be those advocates for them,
(43:02):
and, you know, even sometimes weneed to educate them on those as
well too, to be so that they canbe successful as everybody else
can be. Wow. Well,
Jeannette Campbell (43:14):
this, this has been a really, really great
conversation, and
just even in the way that thatthings have have closed with
sort of your your closingremarks,
you're both reiterating and andechoing each other and
amplifying this message of theimportance of building these
(43:35):
relationships, of comingtogether, of co creation, CO
production, co design, engagingthe entire community in in
developing solutions, intackling these barriers and and
you know, Romaine and Lisa, bothof you to your points about
increasing that awareness of thethe ways that support can be
(43:59):
provided what is available, andalso pushing for people to
recognize that there are otherways that supports can be and
were delivered, and that don'thave to be mandated and and from
a colonial structure as wellthat could work. So I just I
thank you both so much for forthis conversation. I've really
appreciated it, and I ampositive that our listeners will
(44:21):
as well.
Romaine Peters (44:24):
Thank you. Nakurmi,
Dean Askin (44:27):
thank you. It's great to be here. I want to say
thanks as well to both of you,Romaine and Lisa. You know, I
was thinking there's a lot morebeing written and talked about
disability intersectionalitythese days than there ever has.
But I don't think the whole lotof it involves the
intersectionality of disabilityin indigenous cultures. Lisa,
(44:50):
you know, I remember, I think itwas last year. I remember the
first time you mentioned to methat there's no word for
disability in the Inuit culture.And, you know, I have to
confess.
As a non Indigenous wordsmithand communication professional
in the disability sector, I usethat word all the time in the
material I write. Now, I wasboth curious and surprised to
(45:12):
learn that. So I think this hasbeen a really important
awareness raising and agileconference educational
conversation to have. So thanksagain for coming on the show to
share your knowledge andinsights. And you know, somehow
it seems fitting that it'sNovember as this conversation is
airing, because November isindigenous Disability Awareness
Month in Canada,
(45:34):
and hopefully we've raised someawareness, and there'll be other
conversations that come out ofthis one. So again, thank you
Romaine. Thank you Lisa.
Jeannette Campbell (45:42):
That's it for this episode of You can't
spell inclusion without a D. I'mJeanette Campbell, and coming
later this month, in the finalpart of the series, we'll be
finding out about the nuance ofdisability in the multicultural
newcomer community in Canada.That's right. Jeanette, I think
episode 30 is going to beanother insight pack
(46:03):
conversation about theintersectionality of disability.
Stay tuned for that episodecoming November 19. I'm Dean
Askin Thanks again for listeningwherever, whenever and on
whatever podcast app you'relistening from. Join us each
episode as we have insightfulconversations like this one
about disability in the Inuitand First Nations cultures and
(46:25):
explore disability inclusion inbusiness and in our communities
from all the angles you can'tspell inclusion without a. D is
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network. All rightsreserved. Our podcast production
team, executive producer andhost, Jeanette Campbell,
producer sudafu, associateproducer and host, Dean Askin.
(46:49):
Audio editing and production byDean Askin. Our podcast theme is
last summer by ixin. If you havefeedback or comments about an
episode, contact us atinfo@odennetwork.com
Dean Askin (47:00):
that's info at O, d, e, n, e, t, w, O, R, k.com,
join us each episode forinsights from expert guests as
we explore the power ofinclusion, the business benefits
of inclusive hiring, and whydisability is an important part
of the diversity, equity andinclusion conversation. Listen
to you can't spell inclusionwithout a D on podbean or
(47:23):
wherever you find your favoritepodcast you.
Dean,
Dean Askin (00:03):
You Can't Spell Inclusion Qithout a D, the
podcast that explores the powerof inclusion and why disability
is an important part of theworkplace diversity, equity and
inclusion conversation producedby the Ontario Disability
Employment Network with yourhosts, Jeannette Campbell and
Dean Askin.
(00:26):
Hello there, and welcome to theshow. This is episode 29 of you
can't spell inclusion without aD, part two in our three part
series on intersectionality anddisability that's winding up our
2024 season, our fifth season,by the way, if perhaps you're
just tuning into the show forthe first time with this
episode, Hi there. I'm DeanAskin intersectionality and
(00:48):
disability is a broad topic forthis series. We've honed in on
looking at disability in threecommunities. If you caught part
one that was an insightfulconversation about disability in
the LGBTQ 2s plus community.
Jeannette Campbell (01:03):
And hello, I'm Jeanette Campbell this
episode. And next, we're findingout about disability in a couple
of different cultures that makeup the many cultural communities
in the Canadian mosaic. Youcan't explore this
intersectionality withouttalking about disability among
Canada's Aboriginal people orInuit and First Nations, the
(01:24):
Statistics Canada 2022 Canadiansurvey on disability showed that
27% of Canadians aged 15 andolder have a disability. In our
research for this episode, wefound a fact sheet on
accessibility published by thenative Women's Association of
Canada that included thisstatistic, an estimated 30% of
(01:47):
Canada's indigenous population,or 420,000
people, live with a disabilityor a functional limitation. Now
for clarity, here, indigenous isthe all encompassing term for
the native peoples of thiscountry, the First Nations, the
Inuit, or first peoples and theMetis, and how indigenous people
(02:08):
define and perceive disabilityin their communities is, to say
the least, not the same as howit's defined and perceived by
non Indigenous people in Canada.Keep listening, we're going to
find out about that.
Dean Askin (02:23):
So just what is the perception and definition of
disability in the Inuit andFirst Nation cultures and
communities? How much of a roledoes the British colonial
history of Canada play in theintersectionality of disability
in indigenous communities andcultures? What challenges around
employment barriers anddisability inclusion are unique.
(02:45):
All of this is a complex,sometimes sensitive topic with
many nuances to help us betterunderstand disability in the
First Nations and Inuitcommunities. We're joined by
romaine, Peters and LisaSpencer. For the last 21 years,
Romaine has been a familysupport worker at the family
place of learning on WalpoleIsland, First Nation in
(03:06):
southwestern Ontario. Sherecently transitioned into the
position of family DisabilitySupport Worker.
Jeannette Campbell (03:13):
Walpole Island, by the way, is on the
border of our Canadian provinceof Ontario and the US state of
Michigan. It's at the mouth ofthe St Clair River on Lake St
Clair. Joining us from easternCanada in the Maritimes, is Lisa
Spencer. She's thecommunications manager for the
Nunavut disabilities, Martinezquarti society, or NDMS. The
(03:38):
NDMS is based way up in IqaluitNunavut in Canada's far north,
but Lisa works remotely fromlower Sackville Nova Scotia on
the east coast of Canada. Lisahas been with the NDMS Since
2018 in various roles includingresearch casework and program
management. And before that, shewas a professor at Seneca
Polytechnic in Toronto.
(04:00):
The NDMS is the only crossdisability society in Nunavut.
It developed out of grassrootscommunity action back in 1999
and its mission, this from theNDMS website, is to achieve
independence, self determinationand full citizenship for all
(04:20):
Nunavut living with disability,Romaine and Lisa, thank you for
joining us to help us understandthe complex nuances of
disability in the First Nationsand Inuit communities. And
welcome to you can't spellinclusion without a D.
Romaine Peters (04:38):
Thank you. Thank you for having us? Yes,
Jeannette Campbell (04:42):
well, we're going to have a great
conversation, and I'm reallylooking forward to this. I'm
really looking forward tolearning and we're going to jump
right into the conversation witha series of questions. So
romaine, I'm going to come toyou first with this.
Question, what is the perceptionof or the attitude towards
(05:04):
disability in the first nationor Aboriginal or Inuit
communities? How nuanced is it?
Romaine Peters (05:06):
I think, within speaking from our community is
when you know disability is isin our community, but it's not
very well aware of so somecommunitymembers, you know, it's
(05:27):
just accepted in our community.So allowing that to be, you
know, if one of our families areidentified, or a person or
community members identifiedwith a disability, is we try to
work with that family as much aswe can and give it the best
supports that we can in thecommunity, but in understanding
for thinking about our you know,I think just more awareness
(05:50):
needs to be there in our owncommunities, more awareness so
that people will have betterunderstandings of our
community members that do have aDisability, which I actually say
is actually a beautifuldifference, right? So, you know,
thinking about that, you know,we do have lots of people that
do have disabilities, that areidentified, even due to maybe
(06:15):
just self awareness, even, Ithink,
Lisa Spencer (06:20):
and Lisa, what about what about you? How would
you answer that question? Well,first and foremost, I'd like to
acknowledge that I am not Inuitmyself. I am a colonial settler.
I do work for an Inuit ledorganization, and part of the
reason why I am therepresentation today is because
the bandwidth can be difficultup north, and we recently, as an
(06:42):
organization, completed aresearch study through
accessibility Canada where weinterviewed 500
over 500 participants about thisvery topic. So the timing is
phenomenal. So I can't speak forall Inuit. They can discuss what
we have heard from participants,as well as through my work with
(07:04):
the communities and throughcasework. But ultimately,
the issue with disability isit's a colonial word. It is a
label that is enforced on peoplethat don't necessarily want to
identify with it.
It is associated with beingunable or incapable, and so
oftentimes, people who wouldmedically or functionally
(07:28):
qualify as having a disabilitywould refrain from identifying
with that term. It's heavilystigmatized in the north,
particularly because not onlywith the the incapable kind of
affiliation, but also access toresources would and supports
would require, most often, thatpeople move away from their
(07:49):
homelands. So there's ahesitancy to acknowledge
disability, even when, evenwhen, personally, there is an
acknowledgement of it. The otherissue too is that there's a
complicated kind of differencebetween the elder understanding
of disability and the youthcoming in with access to social
(08:12):
media and more kind ofwesternized culture. So there is
a little bit of a shift that'shappening. But ultimately, the
idea is that disability is ameans to an end. People will
identify with it just as a toolto get the resources support or
funding that the governmentsrequire.
Dean Askin (08:33):
Wow. And you know, in the first part of this
series, in Episode 28 and wekind of mentioned it in the
intro. We had a really goodconversation with a couple of
researchers talking about, youknow, disability in the LGBTQ
two plus 2s plus community, andthey said that within that
community there, they found thatthere's many people who have a
(08:55):
disability who are struggling tofit in, to to it when it's
already marginalized anddiscriminated against. Are there
similar issues in, you know, theFirst Nations and the Inuit
communities? I mean, how wouldeach of you describe the
inclusiveness of your respectivecommunities? I know Romaine you
mentioned, sometimes there's akind of a lack of awareness, but
(09:17):
overall, how would you describethe inclusiveness when I think
about inclusiveness in ourcommunity, is it's, you know,
stigmatized still, because thosecolonial behaviors still come in
our communities, even in ourschools. So I think a lot of
times is, How would I describeinclusiveness? And you know, the
(09:38):
perspective of our community is,we know that it's there. We do
have supports in our owncommunity, and we actually do
have a group that is calledSnap, which is like our special
needs action partners, but we'veactually renamed it, and I'm not
quite on how you say the nameyet, but we're will be host.
Romaine Peters (10:00):
Thing a conference next Friday, which
I'm actually a guest speaker in.So I'm, you know, it's about
getting that awareness out abouthow we can support our
community. And I think, for youknow, it's being able to
just learn more awareness. Ithink in our community is where
(10:20):
it's going to be more inclusive,and that's my part, is being
able to spread that awareness atour conference. And you know,
being able to support ourfamilies is one of our biggest
things here.
Lisa Spencer (10:31):
Lisa, what about up north in the in in the Inuit
community? Yeah, it's a littlebit of a two pronged approach,
because the stigma is associatedwith the label, not necessarily
the person. So generally, peopleare accepted for who they are
and what they bring to theircommunities. So everybody has
something that they cancontribute. But as soon as
somebody identifies with thelabel, the label of disability,
(10:54):
then there is a bit of anattitude shift in terms of what
it is that they're capable ofdoing, and the stigma attached
to that. But you know, we dohave LGBTQIA plus participants
in our study as well, whomentioned that inter
intersectional oppression anddiscrimination, but most often
(11:14):
it is in relation to access tosupports, barriers to inclusion,
societal barriers resulting fromcolonialism, so things like
forced settlements, income andtaxation, access to health care.
It's less about the socialaspect.
Jeannette Campbell (11:34):
And you know,
both of you are bringing uppoints really that relate to
sort of the next area ofquestion that I had, but I do
want to just ask a littlequestion this report, Lisa, that
that you've just completed thisresearch, is that something
that's going to be made public?Yes, so we just submitted to our
(11:57):
funder, we're hoping to have itpublished later on in the fall.
Lisa Spencer (12:02):
Yeah, so stay tuned for that.
Jeannette Campbell (12:05):
Okay, that's wonderful. I mean, I know that I
would really appreciate beingable to read that research
report and learn from that, andalso I know that Dean has the
ability to do things like uploadthings into the show notes. So
by the time this airs, if it'sbeen released, then this could
be something that would be aresource for people to learn
(12:26):
more about and to dig a littlebit deeper as well. So that
would be great. I just didn'twant to lose that thought.
So, you know, you're both,you've both kind of raised some
points around,
around the role that colonialhistory can play
in the colonial history ofCanada is played in
(12:51):
in the conversation arounddisability, even you're talking
about the introduction of theword or the language and the
connotations behind it. So youknow, on the website
the First Nations HealthAuthority in BC said that the
word disability is a colonialand social construct that
implies someone cannot dosomething so very similar what
(13:13):
you've been saying, Lisa, andthat it's very different from
how First Nations and Aboriginalpeople define disability and
from how they perceive peoplewho have a disability in their
communities. So that's a quotefrom the First Nations Health
Authority. So for both of you,either of you, can chime in
(13:33):
first. You know, what are yourthoughts about that kind of
statement, and what can what canwe learn from that? Go ahead.
Lisa,
Lisa Spencer (13:42):
so for from our perspective, what we found out
is that the main sticking pointis the label itself. So
oftentimes, to access supportsor funding, you need to identify
as having a disability, whichmakes it difficult for us as an
organization, even to to providethat support and advocacy. So we
tend to use were terms like,barriers to participation in
(14:06):
community.
The whole concept of needing adiagnosis is discussed in many
different disability you know,communities. So it's in line
with that disclosure, you know,dialog,
but in terms of the colonialhistory of Canada, you know,
(14:26):
when it comes to residentialschools and institutionalization
and forced settlements that hasled to mental health
difficulties, that has led todifficulty in, you know,
accessing culture and languageand a sense of self and
community and those importantkinship bonds. And it also leads
to, you know, what is sociallyconsidered inappropriate coping
(14:51):
mechanisms, which underdifferent DSM quantifiers or
even the Nunavut Human RightsAct, substance use is under that
umbrella.
Of disability. So, yes, it'sactually something that is
exacerbated by colonialism. Andyou know, when we consider the
(15:13):
forced settlement for forintimate who were, you know,
nomadic, there's now anexpectation for them to stay in
one place, and that limits theiraccess to cultural practices.
But the remoteness and of theArctic tundra has also led to
like inaccessible housing,education, employment rates, all
(15:35):
social determinants of health,which could also exacerbate
disability
Jeannette Campbell (15:42):
and romaine, thank you for that. Lisa
romaine, you know, at thebeginning of this conversation,
you use the term a beautifuldifference
Romaine Peters (15:50):
and and so what are your What are your thoughts
on on this discussion? Well,when I think about, you know,
the colonial and socialconstruct, you know, in regards
to that word, like thedisability, word itself is, you
know, it, from my perspective,is, I take it as you know that
(16:11):
I'm unable to do something. So Ithink that word, that colonial
word itself, has already put uplike a barrier on it. So it's
like you're only allowed to dothis in this box. So for me, is
like thinking about,
I think about my daughter,because how my daughter learns,
(16:32):
and with her is she was, youknow, she did different
testings, psycho educationaltestings, and she was labeled
under different terms so thatshe could have an individual
plan like IEP right for school.Okay, so thinking about that
was, you know, she learnsdifferently, so that's why I say
(16:54):
beautiful differences as well,too. And I've actually just
learned that from an FASD
workshop on Monday. So again,bringing that to this
conversation as well too,because my daughter is a very
beautiful person, but she learnsdifferent, right? So thinking
about, you know, for Colonial,thinking about education is that
(17:16):
she wants to learn as much asshe can, but she learns through
hands. So she's a hands onlearner, where, if you were to
put a piece of paper in front ofher, Nope, it's like blank for
her. So I got to think about itin a perspective of us as
indigenous people. Is,
what was the history behind thecolonialness is, you know, the
(17:41):
piece of paper, right? That'sone of the biggest things and
triggers for us is a piece ofpaper, because it has brought in
so much trauma from signingpapers, treaties, all those
different things. So again, whenour brain is wired that way is
so when you bring that piece ofpaper, it's hard for us to read,
(18:03):
because of the colonial trauma,right? So the history behind it,
the intergenerational traumathat has happened and come along
with that. So being able to justthink about the word disability
itself is that's already inwired in us because of that
intergenerational trauma. Sowhen we think about the word
disability, it actually feelslike
(18:26):
we're unable to do things, butwe're very capable of doing a
lot of different things, right?So again, yes, that's colonial
history. Is understanding thatyou know the word disability
itself is going to put a labelagain. We're, you know, putting
us in different things. There isno inclusion when you put that
(18:48):
label on it. So how are we goingto be able to incorporate, you
know, with the person that has abeautiful difference?
How are we going to include themthat way and be able to get away
from the word disability, evenitself. So I think that's one of
our biggest challenges right nowin our communities, because,
again, we've learned behaviorsfrom many, many years of, you
(19:12):
know, colonial learnedbehaviors. How are we going to
be able to separate that? Ithink the inclusion part itself
is, you know, we're justunderstanding that we're all
beings. We're all beings here ofEarth, and trying to, you know,
go with the flow of the day.
Dean Askin (19:28):
Yeah, I
want to jump in here for aminute. You know, romaine,
you've sort of touched on what Iwant, what I want to to ask you
about here. I mean,
for each of you in yourexperience, you know, supporting
your communities. What are youfinding are the biggest
challenges for First Nations?And, you know, Inuit people who
(19:49):
have a disability, and you know,does our colonial history play a
role in in all of that, too?Whoever wants to jump in first,
I'll jump.
Romaine Peters (20:00):
And it does play a huge role, because I think of
the extra supports that ourfamilies need in being able to
get the services that they need.Like I said, a lot of times, is
some are undiagnosed, with alabel, again, with whatever
challenges that they have, andit's the whole overall circle of
(20:23):
services that they might need,like, you know, thinking about
supports in school, thinkingabout, you know, maybe somebody
doesn't have the capability tobe able to even read, so rather
than do that. But they're very,very talented in a lot of
different areas, right? So, youknow, it's, there's lots and
lots could be lots oflimitations. So I think, you
(20:46):
know, overall is, you know,there's so many things in our
communities that still need alot more work. And also teaming
up with the ones off, you know,in the mainland, you know,
teaming up that way to be ableto continue to bring those
supports and work together,because once we start working
together, things will be moresuccessful.
Lisa Spencer (21:10):
Lisa, yeah, so in line with what Rome is saying,
the support system, in and ofitself, is colonial, and a lot
of the frontline workers in inNunavut are are white
Southerners. So, you know, thereis a movement to try to bring
more empowerment for Inuit, tocome up and and be those
(21:32):
frontline workers. But at thesame time, there's inequities in
education, there's inequities inhousing and income stability
that lends itself to difficultyin recruitment and retaining,
you know, and even if we didprovide that extra support for
staff to to be culturallyresponsive, to be Inuit
(21:53):
specifically, there is, does itnecessarily meet the need
disability Is, is growing,especially when you consider the
aging population of elders. Sothere that is one aspect of it.
The other piece is, you know,anything that requires medical
intervention or specialty issomething that is usually
(22:14):
provided down south in theprovinces. So that, obviously,
is very triggering for people tobe really relocated, either
permanently or temporarily, toaccess supports. And another
issue too, that we find issomething that Canada likes to
do is to kind of do this panindigeneity aspect that, like
all First Nation groups, are thesame, all Metis Inuit. You know
(22:40):
that there is this similarityacross the board. So when we
talk about disability and wetalk about culture, you know,
there's discussions indisability community about the
nuances between having, youknow, mental illness versus a
physical limitation, versuschronic ill. You know, something
along those lines. There arenuances between cultures as
(23:01):
well. So the supports that workfor one area might not work for
another, even down to creation,stories are very different. So
having you know blanketapproaches or evidence based
practices that that use panindigeneity approaches is not
culturally responsive either.
Jeannette Campbell (23:21):
You know that
that, I think that's a reallyimportant discussion to have,
because, you know, within whenwe look at the classification of
disability and we look at peoplewho are identified or who
identify as a person who has adisability, there's been so much
(23:41):
conversation about, you know,you know, uh, you know somebody
who has autism as an example.Well, now you know one person
who has autism. You don't knowautism hidden. You know the
intellectual disability,developmental disability,
mobility issues, episodic
(24:01):
disabilities, sensorydisability, like vision or
hearing impairment, isexperienced so incredibly
differently by every singleperson that there is this pan
disability. But how do youactually create solutions when
every experience is soindividualized? So I think
welcoming this part of theconversation, and looking at it
(24:22):
from a cultural perspective aswell is really important. And
you know, so we know that,
like, the employment rate willkind of dive a little bit into
employment. Specifically, theemployment rate for people who
have a disability is is up inthis country for the first time
in a while, and we're talkingabout people who are aged 15 to
(24:45):
64 so not capturing sort of theelder population who are also
adding to the to the percentageof people who have a disability.
So right now, disabilityemployment rate is sitting
around 65
Sent used to be around 59% for along time. But we we know at
(25:06):
Odin, we know, and the both ofyou are well aware of this too,
that this, the equitableemployment journey, is just full
of challenges. There's so manybarriers for people who have a
disability. So what we'rewondering is, can we discuss how
much is this potentiallymagnified in First Nation and
(25:26):
Inuit communities like what?What employment barriers are
people facing that perhapspeople who have a disability,
that are on romaine, I believeyou said, the mainland, that are
mainland, who are southerners
from or from other parts ofCanadian society, maybe they're
not experiencing these samebarriers. I don't know, Lisa, do
(25:48):
you or romaine, do you want totake that first? I'll go on it.
I think about, I think, forthat, is that the
Romaine Peters (25:57):
the support systems here in our own
community is, you know, so ifwe're trying to support somebody
that has a disability withemployment, is,
are they properly trained,right? So, are they properly
trained to be able to,sometimes, we're going to have
to be acting as a case managereven, you know, it's that extra
(26:18):
support for that person to beable to, you know, keep an eye
on, you know, their overallwork. You know, what extra
supports do they need working inthe work environment? What are
they what are theircapabilities? So again, it all
has to come back to that casemanagement. For that person, are
they going to be trained in thatas well, too? Because, you know,
depending on that person'sbeautiful difference. What are
(26:42):
they going to be able to helpsupport that person? Because
it's not going to be probablyjust one person. It's going to
be just one worker that's goingto probably be a case manager
of, let's say even five people,so that they're checking in on
these five people. So again,it's about that extra support.
We don't have those kind ofsupports here. So how is that
(27:04):
going to look? Because a lot oftimes is like in our surrounding
communities, we did have
the Community Living Programthat did support those kind of
things to help those ones thatwere working or that were with
support services auditedCommunity Living, let's say, in
Wallaceburg, our next town, andthey were able to help them
(27:27):
with, like, simple jobs andstuff. We don't have that kind
of services in our own communityhere. How are we going to get
that here again, it's a wholebigger picture. It's not just
when I think about, you know,
our special needs, for ourchildren, but it's also for the
adults as well too, because theystill need that extra support.
(27:47):
And even thinking about,
what do you call it, socialworkers? You know, social
workers, are they going to beable to be capable, to be able
to handle those there's notactually a service in our
community that does handle that.So I think that it's one of the
biggest barriers in the FirstNation here.
Lisa Spencer (28:05):
And if I may say, Yeah, please, that's okay for
us. You know, first and foremoststatistics we do, you know, take
with a grain of salt, simplybecause a lot of them require
diagnostic disclosure andidentifying with the label. So
there are a number of people whodo have a disability, but would
not indicate that on the census.So it's hard to say just how
(28:29):
accurate those statistics are.It could be a greater sample,
but it's also just a briefsnapshot in time. So you know
when, when we're looking atemployment rates, how long is
that person employed for?Oftentimes it's short term
employment, or, you know, verylow level income, which requires
(28:53):
a lot more money for cost ofliving purposes. So it's hard to
say if it's sustainable.
Many people
don't go for full timeemployment because they rely on
social assistance, and to behired full time means losing
that social safety net so thatcan affect their access to
(29:16):
housing, that can affect theiraccess to funding to all these
other social supports, it's acascading effect. So they either
make enough money to cover thecost of all of those other
factors, or they don't makeenough money for for living. And
that goes back to relying onsocial assistance. So yeah,
(29:39):
it's, it's a little bitdifferent. It's also this idea
of employment and careers iscolonial as well. So what is
work? Right? A lot of Inuitpeople, or Inuit, sorry, will
work for what they need in themoment, you know, not, not
considering the long termeffects of, you know, a
capitalist.
(30:00):
Economy that's very low on theirpriority. So long term
employment is not necessarilycaptured either.
Jeannette Campbell (30:09):
And you know, that's something I think
that would be,
for me, that's reallyinteresting to understand that
concept and get that thisconcept of what is work, and
working for the now who are notnecessarily fitting into the
construct of capitalistdefinitions of work. So that's
(30:33):
really interesting. And Dean, Iknow you've got a question, but
I do want to just come back toRomaine for one minute, because
when, when you were talkingabout some of those barriers
that you know, so the thesupports, maybe that aren't
available on site, but you know,in in your area, so in Walpole,
you've been partnering withWallaceburg and other community
(30:55):
living organizations. So haveyou started to experience any
sort of
Romaine Peters (31:03):
impacts from the employment transformation system
that the community livingorganizations have been going
through, where some of them areshuttering their employment
services. Has had, have youstarted to have those
discussions to figure out, Whereare you going to be able to
access some of these additionalsupports if they're not
(31:24):
available? Um, I really can'tanswer on that, because I'm just
coming new into this position inregards to the Disability
Support Worker. But I think for,you know, for our community, is
it's, it's, it's just astruggle. Because I think that,
you know, a lot of times, iswhen we're trying to support
people in the employment thing,in the employment, you know,
(31:48):
services through employment andtraining here.
You know, we do have people thatthey help, but sometimes we have
people that come in withunidentified
structures. So that's where itmight lead into, let's say I'm
showing up to work late, or, youknow, I'm, you know, I didn't
make it in today because of someother, you know, challenge that
(32:13):
I was dealing with before. Soagain, it there is those things
that play a big, huge impact is,you know, the unidentified even
again, structure wise, becausethey don't want to be labeled,
you know, even just, you know,acknowledging it for themselves,
even you know, the selfawareness itself too. I think
(32:34):
that's one of our biggeststruggles here in our community.
Jeannette Campbell (32:37):
Thank you.
Dean Askin (32:39):
You know, from, from everything that Romaine and Lisa
is saying here, it sounds likesomething's got to give here,
something's got to change. So Iwant you to put your thinking
caps on for a minute. I mean,
is there one thing or maybe oneor two things, what do you think
needs to change the most, tobreak down all the systemic
barriers that are faced by FirstNations and Inuit people who
(33:03):
have a disability.
Lisa, I can see the wheels going
Lisa Spencer (33:08):
well, yeah. So I can think of two things. Number
one is income security thatleads to access to housing,
education, employment, foodsecurity, all of those things
that can exacerbate disabilityincome security is definitely
important, and
in a similar vein, access tofunding. So when you think about
(33:31):
again, we have already discussedRomaine and I the nuances with
that disability label. You know,to access things like the
disability tax credit, one needsto go through that colonial
practice of paperwork to getthat, you know, certification
and that stamp of approval, toeven get that supplemental
boost, that financial boost withincome assistance as well. So I
(33:52):
guess they're kind of, you know,it's the horse before the
carriage, I guess. Butultimately, I think what needs
to happen is the definitionneeds to be more inclusive of
Indigenous ways of knowing. Youknow, how can somebody access
services, supports and fundingby having a disability in a in a
(34:13):
way that resonates with them?
Dean Askin (34:16):
Yes, definitely. Romaine. What do you think?
Well, I think,
Romaine Peters (34:20):
I think for that is the biggest part is the label
itself. Because once you putthat label on, it is because now
you are being put in thissection of, you know, this box
over here, because of yourchallenges that you have, you
know, your beautiful differencethat you have. So I think that's
one of the biggest things incommunity right now, is if you
(34:43):
are identified with adisability, is you are put into
a category. And I think for howis that going to be a big thing
for our community, is justawareness, like because an
understanding is one of thebiggest things we do.
Still, you know, have a lot ofthose colonial learned behaviors
that we put those labels on, andif, soon as you put that word
(35:07):
disability on, it is like weneed to get away from that word,
especially so when I thinkabout, you know,
people that are labeled withthat disability of whatever it
is, their challenge is, thenagain, they're put in that
little box. How are we going todo that? We got to become, you
know, full circle here, and justunderstand that, you know, they
(35:30):
have a difference. That's all itis.
Jeannette Campbell (35:33):
And you know, you've kind of already
touched on this as well, butwant to just sort of go in a
little bit more.
You talked about Romainespecifically. You talked about
some of the challenges that arethat are facing people around
that access to like actuallyhaving the services available
(35:53):
for support and Lisa, you talkedabout some of the that the
holistic experience for people,all of the other challenges that
might be around them. So whenyou think of
the challenges supporting jobseekers in your communities who
have a disability, what what aresome of those major challenges?
(36:15):
How difficult is that of a jobfor people?
Lisa Spencer (36:19):
It's honestly connecting with the people who
could benefit from the servicesand supports. You know, there
are some, you know, some thingsthat we need to advocate for,
for employer understandings, butit's also, you know, for the the
populations that that we supportto to let them know that what
(36:39):
we're offering applies to themas well, regardless of how they
identify. So I agree withRomaine. It's awareness, but
it's awareness. It's a bidirectional awareness. It's not
just about how to support peoplewith disabilities, but it's also
how to help others, you know,create that understanding of
autonomy, of selfidentification, and, you know,
(37:03):
being able to ask for help andmove forward collaboratively,
instead of enforcing aparticular way of
job seeking and employment andaccommodations. Another aspect,
too, is cultural accommodations.So in Nunavut, you know, when
the weather is good, peopledon't want to work. You want to
get out there and hunt and be onthe land and and do your fishing
(37:26):
and or whatever the means, youknow, whatever it is that
interests them in the moment.And that doesn't necessarily
jive with it. The nine to fiveof the colonial work day
Romaine Peters (37:37):
and romaine what about what about you? I think
for understanding is one of thebiggest things, like I said, is,
you know, how, how can we becomemore aware of that in working
within our own community likehere, if, if somebody is usually
identified in our own community,it's, it's more or less like,
(37:59):
yeah, we know there's somethingthere. But how are we going to
continue supporting this person?So I think, you know, being able
to just do that in our owndynamics. Again, it's about
awareness, even ourunderstanding with our employer
itself, our employee.
Lisa Spencer (38:17):
You know, it's very colonialized, being able to
trying to work within, you know,different aspects, because
that's just the way it'sstructured. You know, we've been
working this way for how manyyears now, under, you know,
those colonial structures, andhow can we, I always say, how
are we going to be, you know, alittle bit bendable. Because,
(38:39):
you know, as indigenous people,we are, you know, blades of
sweet grass and they're verybendable. So how are we going to
be able to be flexible withinour own First Nations?
Dean Askin (38:50):
You know, despite the challenges faced by people
in your respective communitieswith a disability, and the
challenges for both of you indoing your jobs to support them.
What's the most rewarding thingabout what you do? I can answer
that. The challenges are thesystem and the rewards are the
people,
Romaine Peters (39:12):
exactly the relationships that you build
within community. Just a littletidbit on me. I'm known as
Auntie Rowe in a community, sothat's one of the biggest
things, is because, as an auntiein your community, is that
you've taken on that role asbeing that extended family
member, and I might not even berelated to, you know, that
family in through bloodline, youknow? So again, it's being able
(39:35):
to have those relationshipsbuilt. And yeah, I agree with
Lisa, too.
Jeannette Campbell (39:40):
Wow. Yeah, it's the it's the people, yeah,
that's that, that is, that isthe reward, that's,
you know. So we're getting closeto the end of this podcast, so
I'm going to ask, what's the,what's the main thing that,
you know? I.
(40:00):
Sure that people from outsidethe First Nations and Inuit
communities, those of us who arenon Indigenous,
whether they have a disabilityor not, what do you think is the
single most important thing thatyou want people to take away
from this conversation? Like,what's your what's your main
(40:21):
message, if I may,
Lisa Spencer (40:24):
sorry, remember, okay, I was gonna say disability
as a label is new, butdisability in terms of
functional, difficult ordifferences, sorry is not new.
So Inuit have come across those,those nuances since time
immemorial. What has changed ishow they're forced to support
(40:46):
those differences. So when wethink about, you know, our
infrastructure for socialsupports, we do it in a certain
way, but we're imposing thosemethods, whereas Inuit have
found their own culturallyresponsive ways to support
people with disabilities. Airquotes, you know, so who's to
(41:07):
say that our way is best?
Dean Askin (41:11):
I agree. I think for I think overall, is building
those relationships. It's aboutworking together and once you
have that relationship built,you know, that's a great support
system right there. And it'sabout networking with other
programs, other networks, youknow, outside communities. How
can we all come together to beable to support these ones that
(41:35):
do need that extra support? Youknow, you've, you've both made a
lot of really great points aboutall the nuances and all the
things that those, those of uswho are non Indigenous, should
be aware of. And I guess we'reat the end of the more or less
we're at the end of the shownow. And it I got to ask my
trademark question. You know,we've covered a lot, but have we
(41:58):
covered all the essentials? Imean, is there anything that we
haven't talked about over thelast half hour or so that you
think is important to mentionbefore we wrap it up
Lisa Spencer (42:07):
for myself? I think it's really important to
come back to the idea of cocreation and collaboration. You
know, when we think about socialsupports and how we go about
doing things, you know we needto critically analyze and
reflect, is this the mosteffective way to do it, the most
respectful way to do it? Havethose conversations, be curious,
(42:29):
and put aside all assumptionsthat you know evidence based
practices are ideal, becauseevidence based practices take
root in a lot of colonialism aswell.
Romaine Peters (42:41):
I think, for you know, for myself, here is really
thinking about, how can wesupport
those that are have challenges?Is being able to make sure that
you know that we do have thephysical, emotional, mental and
spirituality of theseindividuals at the best
interest, and sometimes we needto be those advocates for them,
(43:02):
and, you know, even sometimes weneed to educate them on those as
well too, to be so that they canbe successful as everybody else
can be. Wow. Well,
Jeannette Campbell (43:14):
this, this has been a really, really great
conversation, and
just even in the way that thatthings have have closed with
sort of your your closingremarks,
you're both reiterating and andechoing each other and
amplifying this message of theimportance of building these
(43:35):
relationships, of comingtogether, of co creation, CO
production, co design, engagingthe entire community in in
developing solutions, intackling these barriers and and
you know, Romaine and Lisa, bothof you to your points about
increasing that awareness of thethe ways that support can be
(43:59):
provided what is available, andalso pushing for people to
recognize that there are otherways that supports can be and
were delivered, and that don'thave to be mandated and and from
a colonial structure as wellthat could work. So I just I
thank you both so much for forthis conversation. I've really
appreciated it, and I ampositive that our listeners will
(44:21):
as well.
Romaine Peters (44:24):
Thank you. Nakurmi,
Dean Askin (44:27):
thank you. It's great to be here. I want to say
thanks as well to both of you,Romaine and Lisa. You know, I
was thinking there's a lot morebeing written and talked about
disability intersectionalitythese days than there ever has.
But I don't think the whole lotof it involves the
intersectionality of disabilityin indigenous cultures. Lisa,
(44:50):
you know, I remember, I think itwas last year. I remember the
first time you mentioned to methat there's no word for
disability in the Inuit culture.And, you know, I have to
confess.
As a non Indigenous wordsmithand communication professional
in the disability sector, I usethat word all the time in the
material I write. Now, I wasboth curious and surprised to
(45:12):
learn that. So I think this hasbeen a really important
awareness raising and agileconference educational
conversation to have. So thanksagain for coming on the show to
share your knowledge andinsights. And you know, somehow
it seems fitting that it'sNovember as this conversation is
airing, because November isindigenous Disability Awareness
Month in Canada,
(45:34):
and hopefully we've raised someawareness, and there'll be other
conversations that come out ofthis one. So again, thank you
Romaine. Thank you Lisa.
Jeannette Campbell (45:42):
That's it for this episode of You can't
spell inclusion without a D. I'mJeanette Campbell, and coming
later this month, in the finalpart of the series, we'll be
finding out about the nuance ofdisability in the multicultural
newcomer community in Canada.That's right. Jeanette, I think
episode 30 is going to beanother insight pack
(46:03):
conversation about theintersectionality of disability.
Stay tuned for that episodecoming November 19. I'm Dean
Askin Thanks again for listeningwherever, whenever and on
whatever podcast app you'relistening from. Join us each
episode as we have insightfulconversations like this one
about disability in the Inuitand First Nations cultures and
(46:25):
explore disability inclusion inbusiness and in our communities
from all the angles you can'tspell inclusion without a. D is
produced in Toronto, Canada bythe Ontario Disability
Employment Network. All rightsreserved. Our podcast production
team, executive producer andhost, Jeanette Campbell,
producer sudafu, associateproducer and host, Dean Askin.
(46:49):
Audio editing and production byDean Askin. Our podcast theme is
last summer by ixin. If you havefeedback or comments about an
episode, contact us atinfo@odennetwork.com
Dean Askin (47:00):
that's info at O, d, e, n, e, t, w, O, R, k.com,
join us each episode forinsights from expert guests as
we explore the power ofinclusion, the business benefits
of inclusive hiring, and whydisability is an important part
of the diversity, equity andinclusion conversation. Listen
to you can't spell inclusionwithout a D on podbean or
(47:23):
wherever you find your favoritepodcast you.
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